00:00:00,820 --> 00:00:27,080 [Speaker 0]
[gentle music] Welcome to Living Dharma, a podcast from the Tergar Institute. I'm Tsunma Kunsang Palmo, here with my co-host, Justin Kelly, as we explore what it means to bring Buddhist wisdom into everyday life. Each episode features conversations with practitioners, teachers, and change makers who are living the path in real, grounded, and inspiring ways. We're so glad you're here.
00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:40,700 [Speaker 1]
[gentle music] Well, welcome everyone. We're really pleased to have our inaugural guest on the podcast, none other than Mingyur Rinpoche. Mingyur Rinpoche, thank you so much for joining us. It's always a pleasure.
00:00:40,700 --> 00:00:43,239 [Speaker 2]
Thank you. I'm very happy to be here.
00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,780 [Speaker 1]
So, Rinpoche, where are you right now? Where are you recording from?
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Now I'm in Kathmandu, in the Tergar Ling Monastery, and special, I have this, um, one tiny room with, uh, soundproof because Kathmandu we have a lot of dogs, and airplane, and the, the, um, marriage [laughs] music. So I have this soundproof room, so I'm very happy to have this room here and having this, uh, dialogue.
00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:27,039 [Speaker 1]
Excellent, Rinpoche. Yes, Kunzang and I are both well aware of those dogs and the marriage ceremonies [chuckles] that can keep us up all night, so...
00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:27,800 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:43,120 [Speaker 1]
Rinpoche, why don't we start...? So the, the nature of the podcast, the Living Dharma podcast, is about the application of the teaching. So how do we make it alive in the world? Could you say a little bit about what this means to you, and how you understand this idea of applying the teachings?
00:01:43,120 --> 00:02:14,080 [Speaker 2]
In my meditative lineage, we really emphasize about experiential practices. So that means you learn, of course, from the intellectual level, but then you experience it through the meditation. Then the most important is to apply in everyday life. So that application is really important. You almost, like, uh, you not just theory
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that
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on the book. When the book close, gone, or not even on the cushion, what we call. You experience it; when you're out of cushion, gone. Not like that. So bring into your everyday life. So that's the... I'm thinking that Living Dharma, I think, is all about these three things, special application.
00:02:38,180 --> 00:02:48,540 [Speaker 1]
And are there specific examples, Rinpoche, from the lineage that you're a part of, that you think really exemplify this, this idea of applying the teachings?
00:02:48,540 --> 00:03:15,500 [Speaker 2]
Yeah, of course. My father, he has really embodied these teachings. So he... He's not really a great scholar or learn nine years of this, or nine to 18 years in the monastic college. Not like that. He's just simple practitioner, and he learned some... One book he, he said he learned
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is kind of like, there's one text called [speaking in foreign language] that, that, the tantric texts, the sacred tantric texts that he learned. Otherwise, he didn't learn. But
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what he received is the experiential teachings. Right away, he applied it, and he practiced it, and he bring into his, his life. So he's really kind, and his deeper level, his mind is like, like vast as like sky. But action level is so kind of humble but confident, and no matter what kind of people comes to him, he become like that level. He can talk... Sometime beggar comes, he's become like beggar, and they will communicate v- like, like friend. And the King of Nepal comes, he's become like that level, and then discuss [laughs] with that. So it's
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deeper level, there's no me that's stuck there. But then after liv- I mean, outside, you can become anything. There's a flexibility, openness, but at the same time, there's a grounding, resilient. There is sky
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that cannot be polluted, cannot be, um... How to say? Indestructible, in a way, but at the same time, so kind, compassionate. Yeah.
00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:22,080 [Speaker 1]
What a beautiful story, Rinpoche. I've oftentimes thought of Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, your father, in Kathmandu because I, I was told, at least, that he thought cities were a great place to practice because of all the noise and the sounds, [chuckles] and I'm always there, quite contracted, wondering where the sky is, but very inspirational. Kunzang, you wanna kick us off with some of the, the questions that we had?
00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:46,600 [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Justin. Thank you, Rinpoche. I remember when I... The first- one of the first teachings I had from you in 2008, when you first started te- teaching, the monks gave you a nickname, Grandad, and, uh, I was wondering if you could share a few words about how your teaching style has evolved from what I imagine would have been quite a traditional style of teaching.
00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:52,960 [Speaker 2]
You know, when I was young, I'm quite... Actually, actually, my personality
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is a very sensitive person, emotional, sensitive [laughs] person. That, that's what I being born, I think.... So I think that's the one of the reason that I have panic attacks, because if something slightly wrong, then I will think about that for weeks and days, and then there's a, um... And I, I feel a lot also people- other people's emotion also, and it's kind of like I'm, my full body is, like, um, sensitive, [chuckles] mind and body. And at the same time, of course, the, the tradition that, uh, Nepal, India, Tibet, there's, um, well behave is promoting, is very important, and I'm cherishing that. So I follow this kind of like really
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behave well and, um, and then people around me, the- I have, I have really fortunate that I have a lot of great teachers. Of course, they are
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70, 80 years old, and even my personal tutor is 70-some years old. They are, they are a little bit senior. Then I become, I become friend with them, then my behavior also become like them, you know? So when I walk, I walk like old person. [chuckles] And, um, when I, um, interact with other people, I'm like grandpa or the lagen, normally. Lagen, lagen meaning the old lama. When I was, um, 70... 18 years old, I went to Tibet,
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because I sit too long in my three-year retreat.
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But that time, my sensitive emotions are not so much affected, because of panic attacks, and I transform, panic become my friend, and I develop quite, quite resilient. So I don't have that very sensitive, touchy... That is gone. Of course, I still know the, the- I still feel things, of course, but the, that power of that sensitive is gone. It's transformed. But still, my behavior is still like old lama, like, uh, like, um, lagen, lagen, the
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old lama. So I even have the stick, you know, walking stick, because I sit too long in three-year retreat, I cannot walk very well. So ei- 18, I went to Tibet. Then there's one monastery in the Tibet called Nangchen Gatsal, and there's, uh, one of the my teacher, Adhe Rinpoche, was there. But, uh, that time, I haven't received a lot of teaching from him. So he, his house is below, down there, the other side of the mountain, but the, the big mountain is a little bit higher than his residence, so we have to walk down.
00:09:07,180 --> 00:09:48,060 [Speaker 2]
And my brother, Sonam Rinpoche, walked before me. He is 10 years older than me, so at that time, he's 28, and I'm 18. I have walking stick. My brother doesn't have. [chuckles] So we walk down, and I'm look, like, I think, become like old lama, you know? And my teacher, Saji Rinpoche, sorry, Adhe Rinpoche, were, were looking from far away, and they said, "Who is the behind of Sonam Rinpoche, that old lama? Do you know the name of that old lama?" Actually, me. I'm 18 years old. [chuckles] So
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likewise, when I give teaching, it's very serious normally. And, uh, so then slowly, slowly, what I learn is the really important, what Buddha said, the teaching style need to adapt the lo kam merpa, the personality, lo... Sorry, lo meaning mentality, kam meaning personality, merpa meaning interest. So I adopt that. Now I become monkey, so my hands are all over the place, and my [chuckles] I, I act on instant things, and
00:10:24,140 --> 00:10:32,120 [Speaker 2]
I, I... When I teach to the 1,000 people or
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10 people, almost same. Or living in my house or teaching in the public, all... I mean, the talking in my house, teaching in the public, almost same. So I don't have this so much, like, [clears throat] like, dress well and
00:10:50,220 --> 00:10:55,300 [Speaker 2]
talk elegant. [chuckles] Th- those things are not much.
00:10:55,900 --> 00:11:09,780 [Speaker 1]
Rinpoche, it sounds like maybe if we keep on this trajectory, maybe we'll schedule, like, some stand-up comedian acts for the latter part of your, your life, and you can tell jokes, like, on Netflix or something. [chuckles]
00:11:09,780 --> 00:11:12,530 [Speaker 2]
Good idea. [chuckles]
00:11:12,530 --> 00:11:35,900 [Speaker 1]
That's really beautiful, Rinpoche. Uh, I'm curious, too, just to dig in to one piece of that, that story, Rinpoche, and that's you as a, as a monk, as a- compared to many of your family members who were lay lamas, who had families. Um, could you talk about making that decision, Rinpoche, and, and what it meant to you? Was that involved in this kind of holding of the tradition or... Yeah, I wonder about that.
00:11:35,900 --> 00:11:37,200 [Speaker 2]
So
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of course, in the- even in the monastery, you take the vow, the early vow first, novice vow. Then after a certain level, you have choice when you become 18-some years old. And, um, and sometime many monks disrobe. And, um, I was thinking, "Should I maybe..." Like my father, of course, married, dis- otherwise, uh, I, I'm not be here, right? [chuckles] And some of my brothers, um, have family. And I see that although they are practitioner-... but there's a lot of problems. And for me, two things are very important: first, my personal practice, like retreats, personal retreats, ongoing, continued learning these wonderful teachings. I always have this excitement, deeper level, never bored because of this path, this journey is really, really interesting, and there, there's unlimited discovery
00:12:43,788 --> 00:12:48,688 [Speaker 2]
until fully enlightened, you know? So
00:12:48,688 --> 00:12:59,328 [Speaker 2]
that's, uh, really my deeper level longing. Second, I want to teach. So what I see, this
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wonderful lineage, this teaching, transformed my life. Although I'm very sensitive, very emotional person, but can transform, and I believe others can. So eager to share these things. So with these two thing, being monk, it's very easy. So I can go to retreat almost any time, [laughs] no need to discuss with [laughs] so many things. Of course, I need to make plan ahead, and then I can have a lot of time for teaching, dedicating for the others. So everybody's my family. Sometime what I'm saying, all the monks and nuns are my children. [laughs]
00:13:44,808 --> 00:14:14,248 [Speaker 1]
That's beautiful, Rinpoche. There's this phrase, Rinpoche, in, in US American culture, "Mo money, mo problems." [laughs] And I hear that in what you're saying, that the responsibility grows, right, in family life, as many of us experience. That's really beautiful, Rinpoche. And can you talk about the actual process? Like, did you, did you talk to your brothers? Did you talk to other monks, and did you, did you kind of weigh the options, or was it more of an internal process?
00:14:14,248 --> 00:15:16,128 [Speaker 2]
It's internal practice. So I see... Of course, I'm part of the family. I see other m- monks. One, like, I have this, what we call, uh, I, I took n- n- novice, novice vow. Three of us, we take together, what we call dharma brother, and, uh, one disrupt and went to New York. So then 2003 or '4, I went to New York, and he was very happy, and he, uh, invited me, and he become the Yellow Cab driver in New York. And I went to his cab, and he bring me many different part of the city, you know? And I look at his life. He's really, really not happy. You know, he's lost, he's tired, he's working morning to evening and just get few money. He tried to buy a house, but it's 30 years loan, and, um-
00:15:16,128 --> 00:15:17,668 [Speaker 1]
A 30-year mortgage, Rinpoche-
00:15:17,668 --> 00:15:17,678 [Speaker 2]
Oh
00:15:17,678 --> 00:15:20,908 [Speaker 1]
... so he had to pay it over 30 years. Yeah.
00:15:20,908 --> 00:15:29,728 [Speaker 2]
30 year, o- o- over 30 years mortgage, all these things. And, uh, o- uh, and then, and that really also impact me.
00:15:29,728 --> 00:15:47,148 [Speaker 1]
Gosh, that's an important message, Rinpoche. I've been traveled to a lot of Tibetan communities in New York, and Paris, and Toronto, and Minneapolis, right? These big enclaves of, of the Tibetan people, Himalayan people, and I've seen a lot of cases like that. I think that's an important message to hear as people make these decisions.
00:15:47,148 --> 00:16:15,708 [Speaker 0]
Hey, Rinpoche, I could follow up with, with that with a question, um, you know, being at the top of an organization, I imagine that that, at times, must be quite lonely. Um, and if so, how, how do you, how do you work with that? I know you said that you're the same when you're teaching or if you're at home, so you're very comfortable in your own skin. But I imagine it, yeah, must at times feel you have to play this role, be this person.
00:16:15,708 --> 00:16:52,608 [Speaker 2]
I, somehow I never felt loneliness. Even I go to the wandering retreat in the mountain, walk up seven days, no people, walk down two days, no people, but I never feel lonely. I feel still have connection, and I think the loneliness is not really my problem now. [laughs] I think because of my practice, the meditation practice, that helps me. But of course, I, I'm doing a lot of interview, especially I met nowadays many leaders,
00:16:52,608 --> 00:16:54,128 [Speaker 2]
also
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stars, superstars, leaders,
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local people,
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and low, low-income people, so many, and the loneliness people really express, especially in the leaders. When they become more higher and higher, they feel like suddenly their colleagues not become colleague anymore, and then
00:17:17,848 --> 00:17:25,248 [Speaker 2]
you cannot find the real friend. So what I'm thinking, that if we
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take refuge
00:17:27,648 --> 00:17:29,128 [Speaker 2]
to
00:17:29,128 --> 00:17:48,388 [Speaker 2]
ourself, the inner, what we call basic innate goodness, goodness. Refuge, the real refuge, is within us, the home, refuge, friend, and that really makes life become exciting,
00:17:48,388 --> 00:17:52,098 [Speaker 2]
meaningful, joyful, I think.
00:17:52,098 --> 00:18:12,148 [Speaker 1]
It's very inspirational, Rinpoche. I wonder, too, Rinpoche, if some of that... Like, if we think of leadership, leadership is oftentimes competitive. If I'm not the senior-most executive, someone else will be. But in your case, maybe you don't experience that sense of competition, right? [chuckles]
00:18:12,148 --> 00:18:18,368 [Speaker 2]
I don't have that competition. [laughs] For me, it's the, the,
00:18:18,368 --> 00:18:44,078 [Speaker 2]
how to say? Mm, complaint is-... you are not really doing, ordering us, you know? Not enough ordering us, not enough leading us. So that's the my- that's the normally getting com- complained with me. One reason is I don't control normally, and I'm not really worry.
00:18:44,138 --> 00:19:03,498 [Speaker 2]
Also, I trust people, but I trust people not like that I surrender to them also. There is, like, I stand by, I'm guiding, g- guarding, guarding, you know, the, like, bodyguard. What do you call? Guard-
00:19:03,498 --> 00:19:04,878 [Speaker 1]
Guarding, yeah.
00:19:04,878 --> 00:19:07,798 [Speaker 2]
Guarding the organization,
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and also I show the, the direction of the organization. I'm doing a lot of things, but at the same time, I'm almost invisible in the organization. So that I think people really, in a way, they feel almost like they really want me to, to guide. But at the same time,
00:19:32,618 --> 00:19:49,778 [Speaker 2]
I'm just be there, but not control, so that become very powerful balance, I think. And one of the reason that works for me is I see the basic innate goodness within everybody.
00:19:49,778 --> 00:20:25,998 [Speaker 2]
So I don't have human, human problem 99% of the time, I can say. 1%, of course, no matter what do [laughing] that's normal. [laughing] But 99% of the time, I don't have the real problem with the humans. Even people say, "Oh, nobody can get alone with that person." For me, get alone. But the problem is, two of them, they both really get along with me, but they don't get along [laughing] each other, and I'm in between. Sometimes there's sometimes problems, yeah.
00:20:25,998 --> 00:20:32,098 [Speaker 1]
I have this image, Rinpoche, of you of, of a Dharma protector when you said that, how you guard, in a way.
00:20:32,098 --> 00:20:32,847 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:20:32,847 --> 00:20:40,398 [Speaker 1]
Yeah, that's really profound, yet invisible. Is this the... So this is the strategy you use to guide all these organizations, yeah?
00:20:40,398 --> 00:20:45,708 [Speaker 2]
Yeah. I'm there, yet almost invisible. [chuckles]
00:20:45,708 --> 00:21:14,778 [Speaker 1]
That's amazing, Rinpoche. I think that there's a lot we can learn, because nowadays at least, there's so much of an idea of, like, identity, right? Like, when you're the leader, it's almost like people feel they have to be the first person, um... And I can say personally, watching you lead your organizations has been- has really inspired the way I try to work in my own environments. And at first, I thought it might be counterproductive, this idea of being invisible, but yet you are guarding.
00:21:14,778 --> 00:21:21,578 [Speaker 2]
Everybody say, "You are too weak." Everybody said, "Oh, they will not listen to you." But actually, opposite comes.
00:21:21,578 --> 00:21:35,038 [Speaker 2]
Everybody want to listen me, in a way, almost like they ask me. I'm also step back, but it's not the giving up. Actually, I'm holding the entire organization at the same time. Yeah.
00:21:35,038 --> 00:21:47,498 [Speaker 0]
So Rinpoche, Justin and I both attended your teaching in 2008, that I was mentioning earlier, and, um, it was pointing out the Dharmakaya. I'm sure, I'm sure you remember it.
00:21:47,498 --> 00:21:47,758 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:21:47,758 --> 00:22:05,847 [Speaker 0]
Um, and at the end of that teaching, at the end, there was a, a celebrationary evening. It was kind of a talent show. I remember Justin and I were just chatting about it, actually. We rem- remember quite vividly that one of the performances at the end was a flamenco dance. Do you, do you know flamenco dance?
00:22:05,847 --> 00:22:05,908 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:22:05,908 --> 00:22:06,818 [Speaker 0]
Yes.
00:22:06,818 --> 00:22:07,938 [Speaker 2]
I remember. [chuckles]
00:22:07,938 --> 00:23:06,438 [Speaker 0]
It was, it was the first time I'd personally ever seen anything like it, and I was, I was, like, amazed, actually dazzled, in how sensual that dance was. And I was watching the women who were dancing for you, and yeah, I was kind of als- also a bit uncomfortable. Here we are in the temple, and they're, they're, they're dancing to you. Um, and I noticed that you, th- throughout the dance, you kept your gaze downwards, and it, it seemed, from where I was sitting, that you, you were just not making eye contact with them. And I was just wondering, like, in, in your teachings, you talk about these different approaches of abandoning, uh, transforming, and knowing the nature of whatever emotion, whatever we're experiencing. Could, could you say a few words about how that experience was for you, and also in, in which circumstances you would practice these three, of abandoning, transforming, or knowing the nature?
00:23:06,438 --> 00:24:36,734 [Speaker 2]
I still remember that one. It's quite em- embarrassing. It's in the, the main hall [laughing]... And all the Sangha members and the, the statue rituals, as everything's there, and then the middle of that [laughing] we have the dance going on. Normally, we have these three things, kind of like abandoning, like what we call antidote style, meaning when there's a problem, you apply antidote, something else. So then, like, if there's a sickness, you have medicine. That medicine get rid of sickness. So there's the antidote style, like abandoning. The, the problem and the solution, they are two separate things, and problem need to... I mean, the solution need to get rid of problem. Second style is what we call transformation. Sometime what we call self-antidote. Problem can be solution. Obstacle become opportunity. Poison become medicine. So that is normally we have in the, in our Tergar, like, Joy of Living 1, 2, 3, all has a lot of emphasize about self-antidote.... like, normally I talk about panic attacks. After a certain level, panic become object of my meditation.
00:24:36,734 --> 00:25:06,094 [Speaker 2]
Panic become support for awareness. So not just awareness, love and compassion, and the wisdom. And likewise, anger, hatred, desire, attachment, jealousy, uh, loneliness, uh, loss of esteem, everything can be support for awareness. You can find love and compassion within the beneath of that or, or the, or the essence of that
00:25:06,094 --> 00:25:11,653 [Speaker 2]
kleshas, that emotion, and the wisdom also. So
00:25:11,654 --> 00:25:45,874 [Speaker 2]
transform. And number three. Number three is, like, special in the Vajrayana style. Everything's perfect, your true nature. Everybody has, has this basic goodness. No need to get rid of, no need to transform anything, no need to add on anything. You just need to recognize that your true nature... Like, if you're holding big diamond in your hand, and, and if you don't know diamond,
00:25:45,874 --> 00:26:17,493 [Speaker 2]
then what do you have to do? "Ah, there's a diamond." That's all. No need to make diamond, no need to get rid of diamond, no need to change the diamond. Just recognize diamond is a diamond. So there's a third, them seeing as they are. So we need this practice normally. Behavior level, what we call apply antidote style, because, of course, in the meditation level, could be
00:26:17,494 --> 00:26:44,333 [Speaker 2]
transform- transformation, could be everything's okay, perfect. But the behavior level, if you say everything okay, okay, okay, then big problem. [laughing] If you want to do business, everything okay, okay. "How much?" "Okay." [laughing] "How much cost for this?" "Uh, you can..." Anything is okay. And if you become the organization leader, "Oh, everything is okay," [laughing] then the organization become chaotic.
00:26:44,333 --> 00:26:52,854 [Speaker 2]
So behavioral level, you need to have some kind of, like, um, um,
00:26:52,914 --> 00:27:22,394 [Speaker 2]
hmm, maybe antidote. When the, when the, when the problem, you might find solution, or sometime the problem may become solution. Sometime leave it things as they are, so we have to use many different ways. But, uh, in the meditate le- meditative level, normally everything's fine. Right is fine, wrong is fine. Clarity is fine, dullness is fine. Doubt is fine,
00:27:22,394 --> 00:27:46,934 [Speaker 2]
certainty is fine. So I use all this practice, especially for me, transformation, knowing as they are. In my own practice, I use this a lot since when I was nine years old. Of course, fail a lot. I'm learning from my failures. [laughing]
00:27:46,994 --> 00:27:56,553 [Speaker 1]
Was that flamenco dance then, Rinpoche, if we're trying to, like, identify what types of practice? In that moment, was it a practice of abandoning?
00:27:56,553 --> 00:28:01,914 [Speaker 2]
So my behavior... I think might be, but I not remember what I behave. I think you, you both-
00:28:01,914 --> 00:28:27,253 [Speaker 1]
You were quite... Rinpoche, I would say I, I remember it vividly as well. I was quite new. I think Kunsang and I had just gotten to know each other that time, and [chuckles] and I was astounded, too. There were... You know, the little monks were around the outside of the shrine hall, kind of trying to see, and you didn't move. It's like, I don't think... You just sat there like a mountain, and I, too, remember your... I- and it seemed like an example of abandoning, where it's like
00:28:27,254 --> 00:28:31,944 [Speaker 1]
you're kind of sup- almost suppressing the sense doors, is oftentimes-
00:28:31,944 --> 00:28:31,944 [Speaker 2]
Mm
00:28:31,944 --> 00:28:35,194 [Speaker 1]
... one way that it's described. Would you agree?
00:28:35,194 --> 00:28:43,094 [Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah, maybe. Maybe I did that one. I not remember. [laughing] I remember the dance. [laughing]
00:28:43,094 --> 00:28:46,694 [Speaker 1]
[laughing] Yeah.
00:28:46,694 --> 00:28:56,484 [Speaker 3]
And just for those that are listening, um, the dancers were dressed beautifully. It was, it was just... The, the flamenco is such an expression, expression and-
00:28:56,484 --> 00:29:04,993 [Speaker 2]
And they put attention. They really want to make everybody happy. It's part of the celebration and of the teaching. Yeah.
00:29:04,994 --> 00:29:08,394 [Speaker 3]
And one, we had a professional, and, uh, yes, it was-
00:29:08,394 --> 00:29:11,083 [Speaker 2]
Yeah, they are professional, I think. Yes.
00:29:11,083 --> 00:29:11,774 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:29:12,994 --> 00:30:05,494 [Speaker 1]
That was amazing. Rinpoche, let's talk a little bit about, um, science and Buddhism, right? This is something that you spend a lot of time thinking about, and, um, we have wonderful community members, of course, Courtland Dahl and Richie Davidson and Antoine Lutz, so you've... Francisco Varela, people that you've known very well. Um, but I wanna look at it from a slightly different direction and see, see if you agree with any of this. One of the, um, what are called narratives, so one of the ways we're understanding the relationship between science and Buddhism, is that science is almost, like, put over Buddhism, and Buddhism needs to kind of justify itself to science. Do you see this happening, Rinpoche, as we start to study meditation more deeply? Am I misreading it? Are we misreading it? How does it impact your understanding of this discussion?
00:30:05,494 --> 00:30:21,533 [Speaker 2]
So for the meditator, um, we are not really totally relying on the science that what we, um, have now in the, in the modern
00:30:21,594 --> 00:31:03,046 [Speaker 2]
way. We have inner science. So it's like what Buddha said, "Don't take my words because I... Of, because of I say so-"... you can take it, my teaching, just like gold. You rub it, burn, and become more genuine, more clear. So you can test, you can see it works for you or not. Continue practice, continue revive. So that's the inner science, experiential. So for that, we are fine. We don't need to rely on science, but
00:31:05,446 --> 00:31:36,346 [Speaker 2]
right now, in the world, like this 21st century, science is really kind of like discovering so many things. Of course, there might have some scientists have different motive, motivation, and some science might be looking only one side. Those things possible, but mainstream science, I think is really... I'm really appreciate about the science. You know, they have a lot of discovery, so many things. And for me, because I'm
00:31:36,346 --> 00:31:51,846 [Speaker 2]
tr- time to time join with these meetings, um, sometime we invite great scientists, and we share together. And what I see is every year,
00:31:51,846 --> 00:31:53,766 [Speaker 2]
the view
00:31:53,766 --> 00:32:04,426 [Speaker 2]
is getting close. So view meaning, [clears throat] in the meditative tradition, we discuss about the awareness
00:32:04,426 --> 00:32:19,426 [Speaker 2]
and the wisdoms. We talk about impermanence, interdependent, even emptiness, and the basic innate goodness. And there's a lot of things about the loving, kindness, compassion, related with the social
00:32:19,426 --> 00:32:25,426 [Speaker 2]
science. So what I feel is, even physics,
00:32:25,426 --> 00:32:28,666 [Speaker 2]
even about the universe,
00:32:28,666 --> 00:32:59,086 [Speaker 2]
it's kind of like coming, coming together. What this teaching in my tradition, now the, the modern science, scientific discovery, every year getting close. That's what I feel. Of course, we talk about a different language, different perspective, even category, also different categorisation, but the meaning is same thing, so it's fascinating.
00:32:59,086 --> 00:33:03,906 [Speaker 1]
And do you anticipate, Rinpoche, that that'll continue, like, when you, when you think about this relationship?
00:33:03,906 --> 00:33:09,266 [Speaker 2]
Of course. Of course. I'm eager to do the next one.
00:33:09,266 --> 00:33:28,966 [Speaker 1]
Fantastic. Well, Rinpoche, we thought we'd spend a few minutes now kind of going through some of the topics that are on people's minds, like, the big topics. And Kunzang, I don't know if you want to kick us off, but just to get your thoughts on these topics, um, that are really, I think, on people's hearts and minds.
00:33:28,966 --> 00:33:30,366 [Speaker 2]
Mm-hmm.
00:33:30,426 --> 00:33:47,716 [Speaker 0]
Thank you, Justin. So something that I think everyone seems very moved and concerned about is, is climate change. Um, do you have any advice how you're working with this or how we can work with it?
00:33:47,716 --> 00:33:47,746 [Speaker 2]
Oh.
00:33:47,746 --> 00:33:49,566 [Speaker 0]
Yeah.
00:33:49,686 --> 00:33:53,526 [Speaker 2]
Yeah, so when I was young,
00:33:53,526 --> 00:33:57,526 [Speaker 2]
in my hometown, like,
00:33:57,526 --> 00:34:04,586 [Speaker 2]
the, the... My town name Nubri. It's in Tibetan language, but,
00:34:04,586 --> 00:34:06,986 [Speaker 2]
uh,
00:34:06,986 --> 00:34:41,505 [Speaker 2]
yeah, and now, now they change name Nubri. So in Nepal also, Nu- they call Nubri. And special, my village, called Sama Gaun. It's in front of Mountain Manaslu. So if I walk from my home half hour, I can touch my hand to the glaciers. And we have this lake, and surrounded by lake, there's a glacier. So I walk to the lake and go a little bit on the side, and I can touch the glacier.
00:34:41,565 --> 00:34:57,386 [Speaker 2]
And when I was nine, I totally moved to Kathmandu, so I didn't go to my village. Then I go through- go to the India to study, then finish three-year retreat, then I, uh, study in the monastery college. So maybe about
00:34:57,386 --> 00:35:09,866 [Speaker 2]
15, 20 years later, 20 years maybe, and I went to back to my hometown. So I... One day, morning, I woke up, and I walk to that lake.
00:35:09,926 --> 00:35:15,185 [Speaker 2]
Now the glacier around the lake's totally gone,
00:35:15,186 --> 00:35:35,146 [Speaker 2]
and I have to walk two hours to go up to the mountain to touch my hand to the, to the glacier. So I was really, really kind of, like, upset, scared, a little bit angry. [laughing] And
00:35:35,146 --> 00:35:40,766 [Speaker 2]
now we are having this climate change, so
00:35:40,826 --> 00:35:46,926 [Speaker 2]
what we can do? So I was really thinking about
00:35:46,926 --> 00:35:48,766 [Speaker 2]
that
00:35:48,766 --> 00:36:19,586 [Speaker 2]
although I cannot change the world, most people easily give up because I cannot change the world. So I can do whatever my part. So, and later we have... Now we have- we are doing a little bit, like, a lot of social work in the Himalayan region, helping the people and helping the environment. So, like, even my residence now in this room, behind,
00:36:19,586 --> 00:36:45,906 [Speaker 2]
behind me, the small land, I put a lot of trees. It's, like, become small forest. A- in the front, new... We bought this one about six years ago, I think, now becoming big tree, also forest. So whatever we can do in our personal level-... I think it's very important. And at the same time,
00:36:45,906 --> 00:36:47,886 [Speaker 2]
we can
00:36:47,886 --> 00:37:02,246 [Speaker 2]
work with this anxie- anxiety. Nowadays, people call climate anxiety, right? So we can work with that with awareness, love and compassion, and wisdom.
00:37:03,446 --> 00:37:37,206 [Speaker 1]
It's beautiful, Rinpoche. Um, another topic that people are facing right now in our current era is a lot of extremism. So I think, uh, people on kind of both sides of the political divide, across Europe, South America, Asia, North America, people who are what we oftentimes now call right wing, believe that the left wing and the more liberal folks are extreme, and the liberal folks believe the right wing is extreme.
00:37:37,206 --> 00:37:50,966 [Speaker 1]
And people use words like fascism, and people use words like dictators, right? And that's- so people are really worried about this. When you look at the world's political landscape, what do you think?
00:37:50,966 --> 00:38:15,146 [Speaker 2]
Yeah, lately there's a lot of turbulence around the world, a lot of conflicts, a lot of... We're ha- we're having wars also, and really, when I open the news, it's really feel sad. I feel really sad. And I do the lot of dedication, pray for world peace,
00:38:15,146 --> 00:38:29,966 [Speaker 2]
and, um, but still don't give up. So we can... I, I'm continued promoting compassion, awareness, wisdom. I'm s- still teaching,
00:38:29,966 --> 00:38:32,866 [Speaker 2]
and also,
00:38:32,866 --> 00:38:45,386 [Speaker 2]
people from these countries, there are many people are listening my talk, and I'm promoting compassion, awareness. Hopefully, might have seed. It may become seed
00:38:45,386 --> 00:38:52,426 [Speaker 2]
for the, for the people. So the world is based on individual,
00:38:52,426 --> 00:39:29,846 [Speaker 2]
so all of us individual. If we change ourself, and through that maybe we can impact our friends, family. They might have impact other people, like ri- ripple impact. So then world can change, because world is just based on the individual. But if we think, "I cannot change the world," then give up, or, "I want to change the world," then become war. [laughs] If you don't change ourself, we think, "I want to change the world," it doesn't work.
00:39:29,846 --> 00:39:53,985 [Speaker 2]
So what we are doing now in that regard, I think these are very important element for the changing of the world better way in the future. Even when you sit on the cushion, so look like you're quiet. Look like you're yourself, and you might think how I'm helping others. Actually, you are creating
00:39:54,066 --> 00:40:03,086 [Speaker 2]
very important cause and conditions to help others, because you are helping yourself. Through that, you can help others.
00:40:06,546 --> 00:40:29,706 [Speaker 2]
Rinpoche, it's amazing message, but just to push a little bit on that topic, how, how do we... We're in, it seems like, desperate times. People are desperate. How do we do this? Like you said earlier, your leadership style is you recognize the basic goodness in everyone. How do you do that when the atrocities are so extreme?
00:40:29,706 --> 00:40:43,466 [Speaker 2]
So even people complain, like somebody said, dictator, whatever, for me, I listen. Deep listening. I don't put my own
00:40:43,466 --> 00:40:57,026 [Speaker 2]
kind of like... I don't push my own view, and, a- actually, I don't have very strong view either. [laughs] I don't want to go direction of the political way. So for me,
00:40:57,026 --> 00:41:18,026 [Speaker 2]
I really listen others. Then some people might like one direction. But even look like that person is one direction, if you're listening long enough, there's a lot of wisdom there in that same conversation. Lot of
00:41:18,026 --> 00:41:38,446 [Speaker 2]
problems, but within that same conversation, they have solution also. So then what I do is I pick up those conversations, that solution, that wisdom. I agree that. I discuss more about that. I bring that into
00:41:38,446 --> 00:41:44,046 [Speaker 2]
surface, and then in the end, that covers everything.
00:41:44,046 --> 00:41:58,566 [Speaker 2]
The furious and negative one diminish automatically, and it's not I control them. It's from them. I nurture them. I bring from them, bring to the surface.
00:41:58,566 --> 00:42:21,906 [Speaker 0]
Another topic that seems to be very, very prevalent, and I think many parents are very concerned, the kind of levels of anxiety now that we see children experiencing. Do you have any advice, uh, for parents, school teachers, those who are, yeah, struggling to support children who are experiencing anxiety?
00:42:21,906 --> 00:42:27,806 [Speaker 2]
True, nowadays a lot, and one of the reason is sometime
00:42:27,806 --> 00:42:32,446 [Speaker 2]
we don't fully understand children.
00:42:32,446 --> 00:42:40,266 [Speaker 2]
So we need to understand children, also three levels. There's something need to be antidote style,
00:42:40,266 --> 00:43:03,138 [Speaker 2]
something transformative style, something knowing who they are.... so, like, some education or parenting style or socialist antidote style, always problem, then solution, problem, solution, fine. Then children, after a certain level, become very, [inhales] like,
00:43:03,138 --> 00:43:45,377 [Speaker 2]
their level of resilience go down, very sensitive, fragile. And then some teachers and education said, "Oh, children are perfect from there. We don't have to do anything." Then sometime that also, after a certain level, it really difficult to bring, when you go back to the life, it's, it's also difficult. And some, they said, "Oh, problem, solution, obstacle, opportunity there." So we don't look full picture of the children itself. So children has this wonderful nature, basic innate goodness. But of course, at the same time, [lips smack] there's a boundary
00:43:45,378 --> 00:43:51,898 [Speaker 2]
we need to really, what we call... If children need to learn,
00:43:51,898 --> 00:44:35,278 [Speaker 2]
don't protect too much, don't control too much. But at the same time, you don't totally let go. If children is falling from the table, let it fall, but you s- you look at the ground. Is there danger or not? [laughing] And you're there. So, and another important is really need to develop resilience with the children. So the resil- resilience, resilience comes, the recognizing this basic innate goodness within ourself, refuge within ourself. Then also impermanent, learning about impermanent is really important.
00:44:35,278 --> 00:44:59,158 [Speaker 2]
[lips smack] So life is up and down, and children need to know about up and down. And then when the up and down, when up and down comes to your life, what you should do? Internal level, inner development level. Normally, in, in the normal school, they don't teach that. They just teach external skills.
00:44:59,158 --> 00:45:00,938 [Speaker 2]
So that's why
00:45:00,938 --> 00:45:06,698 [Speaker 2]
the anxiety or loneliness, depression level of children right now is really high.
00:45:06,698 --> 00:45:45,838 [Speaker 1]
Powerful, Rinpoche, as a parent, to hear you say that. And I remember w- when my first son was born, just immediately I had a good friend who came to visit, who had a couple of children, and he said something to me that was so confusing at the time. He said, "I hope that your child falls from a high enough height, [chuckles] that they are impacted," right? That it's difficult, "but yet not too high of a height that they're really impacted." And I looked at him, [chuckles] I said, "What are you talking about?" Like, and it's that case, it's to say children are resilient. We need to give them the opportunity to be resilient, and of course, what you just described, support them.
00:45:45,838 --> 00:45:49,078 [Speaker 2]
Yes. Wonderful, wonderful.
00:45:49,078 --> 00:46:23,718 [Speaker 1]
Very inspirational. Rinpoche, another topic that's around the world and is very impactful for people, and unfortunately is leading to really high rates of suicide, depression, anxiety, is transgenderism, and so people who are transitioning from one gender to another or self-identifying. And [inhales] how... And this question, I'm curious, how is- Because you're, you're travelling the world, you're seeing this, right? Um, how is it impacting how you are in your, in your life and your teachings, and... Yeah, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that.
00:46:23,718 --> 00:46:30,218 [Speaker 2]
So we, the most important, normally we have this identity,
00:46:30,218 --> 00:46:41,618 [Speaker 2]
almost like a self-identity, who we are, what we believe, my value, my faith,
00:46:41,618 --> 00:47:25,858 [Speaker 2]
and sometime we give up our life for that value, that identity. So it's very strong, normally rooted within us. So normally, what we call, it's like permanent singularity, independent, the notion of these three things. Like notion of singularity, meaning kind of like that self-identity, almost like single, and that related with the self-cherishing, like number one, the best, I need to win, something like that. [lips smack] Then it's permanent, meaning don't want to change. It's a very stable and, you know, um,
00:47:25,858 --> 00:47:29,458 [Speaker 2]
kind of like fixed. Then there's, um,
00:47:29,458 --> 00:47:58,738 [Speaker 2]
independent, meaning you want to control everything in your hand, and this combined together. So this is why there's a lot of, [clears throat] war comes from there, conflicts comes from there, disagreement comes there, everything comes from there. So then people change from that identity. Sometime they confuse, so then a lot of turbulence comes. So
00:47:58,738 --> 00:48:17,078 [Speaker 2]
[lips smack] normally, like, people come to me and, and ask me to advise, I always try to... Two things, e- emphasize two things. One is the basic innate goodness. No matter what kind of identity or what kind of
00:48:17,078 --> 00:48:20,778 [Speaker 2]
male, female, race,
00:48:20,778 --> 00:48:33,998 [Speaker 2]
cult- culture, it doesn't matter. Your, our true nature is always beyond pure, present, and remember that, and appreciate about that.
00:48:34,058 --> 00:48:42,038 [Speaker 2]
Second thing is then to accept the impermanent. So
00:48:42,038 --> 00:49:30,878 [Speaker 2]
life is up and down, like wave of the ocean. If you fight with the wave, then the water go into our nose and lungs and [laughing]...... you cannot fight it. But if we play with the waves, and we can drive, you know, what do you call? We can swim, we can play with that. Wave is wonderful. Another example is stock market go up and down. Because stock market go up and down, so people make business, right? If the stock market's flat, then there's no business. So actually, up and down, accept that, but no need to give up. You, you can continue to learn and grow.
00:49:30,878 --> 00:49:41,218 [Speaker 4]
So Rinpoche, our, our last question for you now, um, what do you envision or what would you like the future to look like? Yeah.
00:49:41,218 --> 00:49:52,698 [Speaker 2]
I always have the, how to say, hope, optimistic. So of course, world go up and down.
00:49:52,698 --> 00:49:56,198 [Speaker 2]
So we are in now down moment,
00:49:56,278 --> 00:49:58,438 [Speaker 2]
and I hope
00:49:58,438 --> 00:50:52,138 [Speaker 2]
people will learn from this down moment, then hopefully something good thing come out in the future. That's the, what I'm sensing. So... And everybody has a basic innate goodness, although the- this basic innate goodness is covered, what we call the, um... It's like diamond covered by mud, or the light in the middle of the house. If you close the door and the window, it's totally covered, but still some light comes from the, the, the, how to say, cracks of the door and the window is manifesting. So there's some kind of common resilience normally, people have it. So I think, hopefully in the future, we learn from this, and
00:50:52,138 --> 00:51:01,038 [Speaker 2]
better outcome in the future. But of course, meanwhile, there's a conflicts, there's the
00:51:01,038 --> 00:51:04,878 [Speaker 2]
climate change, there's some
00:51:04,878 --> 00:51:27,418 [Speaker 2]
also financial issue, pandemic. So many things are there. These are real. And, [lips smack] and I, I hope that we all not lose hope to, to develop resilience, and maybe obstacle become opportunity, problem become solution.
00:51:27,418 --> 00:52:12,598 [Speaker 5]
So much wisdom here, Rinpoche. We're gonna spend the next decade trying to enact some of it, so thank you so much. Such a profound, uh, inaugural podcast for us, so thank you. [gentle music] Thanks for listening to this edition of Living Dharma. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd be grateful if you left a review, subscribed to the channel, or shared it with somebody that you love. As a 501[c]3, the Tergar Institute relies on your generosity to continue offering transformational programs rooted in Vajrayana Buddhism. To support our work and explore our course offerings, visit us at tergarinstitute.org. Until next time, may your awareness be steady, may your heart be open, and may your wisdom be ever present.