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[gentle music] Welcome to Living Dharma, a podcast from the Tergar Institute. I'm Tsunma Kunsang Palmo, here with my co-host, Justin Kelly, as we explore what it means to bring Buddhist wisdom into everyday life. Each episode features conversations with practitioners, teachers, and change makers who are living the path in real, grounded, and inspiring ways. We're so glad you're here.
00:00:27,040 --> 00:01:53,180 [Speaker 1]
[gentle music] Hello, everyone, and, uh, welcome to our first ever live recording of our Living Dharma Chat podcast series. Those of you who aren't familiar with the Tergar Institute, we've been around for about three years, and this is a new initiative to really bring the heart of, uh, what we're interested in, applying the Buddhist teachings in our daily life, uh, to you all. We're so honored to begin this series with Joseph Goldstein, one of the truly pioneering teachers of Buddhism in the West. It's hard to introduce someone like Joseph because i- likely he doesn't need much of an introduction, but I'm gonna highlight a couple of the pieces of his path because it is quite inspiring. So he's the co-founder of both the Insight Meditation Society and the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies, two of really the most core centers of Buddhist study and practice in North America. His practices and teachings have been deeply rooted in the Burmese Vipassana tradition, but he also draws inspiration across Buddhist traditions, and maybe most applicable here, the Dzogchen traditions of Tibetan Buddhism. So beyond all of his remarkable contributions as a teacher, um, and as a thinker, he's also just a tremendous human being, and I feel very privileged to call him a teacher of mine and a friend. And, uh, once again, Joseph, we're just so pleased to have you here with us.
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Thanks, Justin. [chuckles] Delighted to be with you.
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And also, Suma Kunzang Palmo, who's here, my co-host, as always, to the Living Dharma podcast. So, Kunzang, do you want to kick us off?
00:02:05,320 --> 00:03:08,350 [Speaker 0]
Hi, Justin. Hi, Joseph. Wonderful to be with you here today. First of all, Joseph, I just wanted to ask a little bit about what applying the Dharma in daily life looks like for you. And just to put into context, at the institute, we have what we call a, a social impact project, and this is really a, a practical expression of the Dharma. It's where insight meets action. So participants who come to the institute, who are cultivating meditation, it's where they can really bring into the world ways that their understanding of the view, as well as the practice, can really benefit the communities that they're living in. So it's a way of sort of addressing change in the world, a way of sort of really s- exploring the Dharma in very tangible ways. So it's really going beyond the theory and sort of embodying generosity, responsibility, interconnected, all these kind of things. What does this theme of applying the Dharma in daily life look like for you?
00:03:08,350 --> 00:04:07,280 [Speaker 2]
That's a big question. [chuckles] A couple of things. I'll start with, in a way, the most outward in terms of engagement with the world that we're living in. It seems to me, maybe especially in these times, although it may be in all times, but it feels particularly challenging now with everything that's going on so many places around the world and in this country. And I think one of the challenges and practices that our Dharma understanding can help with is how to maintain both some equilibrium and some connection to what it is that's going on, because it's so easy either to fall into a kind of hopelessness or despair or thinking, "What can I do," you know, "in this situation?" So for me, there are two main qualities
00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:12,480 [Speaker 2]
that I really try to apply just in my daily life, in
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being in the world, hearing the news, [chuckles] the constant stream of news, how to stay balanced with it all. And
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for me, it comes down really to the relationship, in a way, of two particular qualities of mind. One of them, and perhaps in a way it's obvious, is developing some equanimity,
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because
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with so much going on and so much impact and the, the endless stream of news, it would be so easy, and it is so easy, I see it in myself, to just get reactive or
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not quite know what to do with it all.
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Equanimity is that mind space as, as you all know, that's just more spacious and more open and impartial. So sometimes it's likened to space that can hold everything without reactivity, which, of course, is the key. So then the question is
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how to actually develop the equanimity in the moment when we feel-- we may be feeling overwhelmed or get caught up in reactivity.
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And I've found a couple of
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pretty simple reflections that help to bring my mind back into balance. One of them is going out at night and looking up at the stars,
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just opening the heart, opening the mind
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to the vastness of this universe, [chuckles] right? And it's both awe-inspiring
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and also it gives perspective. You know, we're so caught up in-... the momentariness of what's happening in our lives, and we forget that in the cosmic scope of things,
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[chuckles] it's just an infinitesimal little
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drop of experience. So I just find for myself, oh, yes, you know, it may seem so dramatic and so intense in the moment,
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but from the s- perspective of Venus, from the perspective of outer space, [chuckles] everything takes on a very different quality. And as I think we all know, nature is very healing. Just going for a walk in the woods, I find it's much harder to be neurotic in the woods [chuckles] than in the midst of all my daily activities. The trees seem to absorb it, and I can feel that kind of relaxation. So that's one way I find of coming back to equanimity. Another way, it creates a different perspective. I'm a great lover of history and reading history, and I recently was reading a book called The Rise and Fall of Civilizations,
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and it traces back to ancient times, to ancient Sumeria, and then many of the civilizations that have arisen and passed away around the world, in China, in India, in Europe, and the Americas. And it was just so interesting to see that this is the historical norm. It's not a mistake, it's inevitable, which, of course, is in accordance with the Buddhist teachings. Whatever arises will also pass away. [chuckles] And so when I can put what's happening now into a larger perspective, again, it, it just creates an equanimity about what's happening. So that's one half
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of the practice for me. The other half is
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really nurturing compassion, which,
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in the space of equanimity, fosters engagement, so equanimity does not become indifference, you know? So it's not like we're pulling back from the world. We're here, and we're living our lives with all that's happening. Can we do it with balance and non-reactivity, but also with engagement? And to me, it's the quality of compassion, which
00:08:37,251 --> 00:08:54,932 [Speaker 2]
is the wisest fuel for engagement. And that practice, for me, has come down to something very simple, and it's, it's really a part of my practice that I love. It was encapsulated in the title of a book
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by Ram Dass and Paul Gorman back in the '70s, and the title of the book is How Can I Help? And I love the simplicity of that, and so I've really tried to just
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integrate that
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into my day. Just having that as the, as the frame
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for going through the day. So with that in mind, just looking for opportunity. How can I help in this situation, whatever it may be? And of course, sometimes there's something we can do, and sometimes there isn't, but having that question
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keeps the heart and mind engaged. So these are two aspects. Of course, I could spend the whole hour talking about it, [chuckles] in response to your question, but I'll leave it to there for the moment.
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I'm struck, Joseph, the way that you present, it's just so clear, and so much of what you said parallels much of the work that we're doing in the institute, and I wanna push it a little further. Someone that I'm drawing a lot of inspiration from right now is Bhikkhu Bodhi and his wonderful work, really pushing the envelope on sociopolitical crises and the environmental crisis. So maybe even taking, like, a personal historical perspective, has the way that you engage in this way changed and shifted for the last... Has it been fifty years? Is that right?
00:10:21,412 --> 00:10:24,512 [Speaker 2]
Uh-huh. Fifty, sixty. It's getting up there. [laughing]
00:10:24,512 --> 00:10:34,232 [Speaker 1]
Could you talk a little bit about that i- in context with this real call for urgency that people like Bhikkhu Bodhi and many other great teachers a- and activists are calling for?
00:10:34,232 --> 00:12:11,704 [Speaker 2]
Well, so this will tie in really to, in a way, the theme of your podcast. I had been practicing Vipassana in the Burmese tradition for about twenty years, and then when I started to begin to explore some of the Dzogchen practices with some really great teachers, Tulku Urgyen and Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche... I remember I was on one two-month Dzogchen retreat with Nyoshul Khen, and he gave a talk on bodhichitta. And even though the idea or the energy of bodhichitta is implicit in the Theravada teachings, it's not as explicit as it is in the Tibetan teachings. So when he was giving this talk, just in listening to the talk, something really opened up in my understanding of bodhichitta and of compassion. And just as a kind of a little anecdote or example of the shift that took place, as you know, in Mahayana and Vajrayana, a big part of the teaching are the Bodhisattva vows. So before this retreat, I always admired the vows and thought they were a good idea, [chuckles] but they seemed impossible to me. It just seemed much more than I could ever do. But then in listening to the talk, something shifted, and-... and I saw the coming together of my Vipassana practice and bodhicitta
00:12:11,704 --> 00:12:14,664 [Speaker 2]
when I understood
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the bodhisattva vow and the compassion underneath it
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as the expression of emptiness. So it's almost like compassion is the activity of emptiness, of selflessness.
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So then instead of these bodhisattva vows resting on the shoulders of a self, which seemed impossible, it no longer was the burden of a self. It was just the unfolding of the dharma, of emptiness, of selflessness, and compassion being the activity of that understanding. And so that really opened up this whole bodhicitta perspective, which has really informed b- both my teaching and my practice since then. That was a big turning point,
00:13:07,863 --> 00:13:20,444 [Speaker 2]
and from then on, I really started applying this idea of, "Well, how can I help?" And I guess I'll say one more thing about it. I think it's important
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not to create a hierarchy of compassionate action, because it's so easy to think, "Oh, as an expression of bodhicitta or compassion, I have to be on the front lines of social engagement." But just think of the bodhisattva before he became Buddha. For lifetimes, he may have been living in a cave, doing his practice, but with the aspiration
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to become enlightened for the welfare of all. And I could just imagine his, in all of those previous lifetimes, his family's like,
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"Go get a job. Do something useful in the world." [chuckles] But meanwhile,
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we're here today because of what he did twenty-six hundred years ago, right? And so I think it's important not to create this hierarchy, that some kinds of engagement are somehow more compassionate or more engaged than others, because we each find our own way according to capabilities and interests. So I think that's really important.
00:14:27,843 --> 00:14:30,164 [Speaker 0]
Thank you, Joseph. Very beautiful.
00:14:30,164 --> 00:14:30,464 [Speaker 2]
Mm.
00:14:30,464 --> 00:14:43,144 [Speaker 0]
I love the references you've already made to Dzogchen when you shared that when things feel like they're getting a bit overwhelming, you go outside and just look up at the stars. As soon as you said that, I really thought of Dzogchen.
00:14:43,144 --> 00:14:43,964 [Speaker 2]
Yeah. Yeah.
00:14:43,964 --> 00:14:54,944 [Speaker 0]
And, and again, now you're talking about that turning point where you met Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche in Noshel Kang, and how bodhicitta is really this, this union of emptiness and-
00:14:54,944 --> 00:14:55,103 [Speaker 2]
Yeah
00:14:55,103 --> 00:14:56,523 [Speaker 0]
... and compassion-
00:14:56,523 --> 00:14:56,613 [Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah
00:14:56,613 --> 00:15:09,884 [Speaker 0]
... emptiness, and maturity. Really beautiful. It sounds to me like, uh, well, of course, you've been through such an evolution in your own practice. Could you say a few words about how
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y- you still sort of surprise yourself by the way that you meet challenges? Do you see yourself-
00:15:16,174 --> 00:15:16,284 [Speaker 2]
Mm
00:15:16,284 --> 00:15:22,343 [Speaker 0]
... still growing in ways that you really hadn't anticipated or expected?
00:15:22,343 --> 00:15:29,384 [Speaker 2]
[chuckles] Well, i- in a way, we're always at the forward edge of our practice,
00:15:29,384 --> 00:15:42,723 [Speaker 2]
by definition. [chuckles] You know, we're going along, and we're always right at the forward edge. Sometimes things just seem to unfold in a very predictable way and sometimes
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very unexpected because, you know, as we know, kind of new insights generally are intuitive. It's not necessarily discursive, but we're just going along, paying attention in whatever path of practice we're on. We're going along, practicing, and then in a moment, something arises, some new way of seeing. But that's not to say that we kind of included in the unfolding practice. There are times when a really reflective investigation can be helpful. I want to include that aspect of the practice because that's been really important for me, too. One big arena in which this has showed itself is something that I've been teaching a lot in these last couple of years. It's summed up in a phrase: [chuckles] "Don't waste your suffering." Because often, when people are in distress or suffering in some way, a common response, not for everyone, of course, but a common one is either drowning in it, just really caught up in the suffering, or
00:16:56,023 --> 00:17:48,864 [Speaker 2]
putting the responsibility for our suffering on someone else. "They're making me suffer, or what they're doing is making me suffer." Don't waste your suffering, for me, means taking one hundred percent responsibility for the suffering in our minds. This is not to say that we're necessarily responsible for many difficult experiences that may arise due to external conditions. I mean, there's a lot of difficulty and pain that can come about from the external world, but how we relate to it, whether we're suffering because of it or we find a way to an understanding of it, that is totally up to us. And
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that understanding, to me, is both very challenging for some people because to feel one hundred percent responsible for the suffering that we're experiencing, that's a major commitment to understanding and liberation, [chuckles] because we realize it's up to us. And so with that frame-... whenever I'm in some kind of unease of some kind or other in the mind, and it can be small, it can be big, at this point, it always piques my interest. It's like, "Okay, something's going on in my mind that is the cause of this suffering." It's the first two noble truths. I just have to share one, one definition of dukkha, the first noble truth, which I came across online, [chuckles] and I don't know exactly where I read it now, but I loved it. I thought it was the perfect expression of dukkha. It said, "Dukkha is the inevitability of unwanted experiences." [chuckles] You know, it just-- the truth of that just resonated so completely with me.
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And it's this understanding that unwanted experiences are not a mistake. It's just the nature of samsara, the inevitability of unwanted experiences. But it doesn't say the inevitability of suffering because of unwanted experiences. That's up to us. This framework really prompts an investigation into my mind and for anybody into one's own mind. "Okay, what's causing the suffering? What am I holding onto? What am I pushing away? What am I not allowing?" What-- You know, whatever. But then it becomes really interesting, though the suffering that we're experiencing can be a real energizer for our practice. I really try to do that a lot whenever I feel uneasy. "Okay, what's, what's going on here?"
00:19:53,892 --> 00:20:06,512 [Speaker 1]
It's beautiful, Joseph. There's a real similarity in hearing what you're sharing now, and oftentimes when, when Mingyur Rinpoche talks about his experience, and this level of curiosity and just perpetual interest.
00:20:06,512 --> 00:20:06,932 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:20:06,932 --> 00:20:13,262 [Speaker 1]
I first arrived in Barry twenty years ago, met you for the first time. That has been completely consistent, Joseph. [chuckles]
00:20:13,262 --> 00:20:13,312 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:20:13,312 --> 00:20:18,592 [Speaker 1]
It is remarkable to see that, and really inspiring as a practitioner.
00:20:18,592 --> 00:20:19,512 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:20:19,512 --> 00:20:19,552 [Speaker 1]
Yes.
00:20:19,552 --> 00:20:31,782 [Speaker 2]
Well, that, that is-- it's that quality of interest which really has sustained my practice over sixty years because [chuckles] I find it really interesting. The mind is an amazing phenomenon.
00:20:31,782 --> 00:20:31,832 [Speaker 1]
Mm.
00:20:31,832 --> 00:20:41,372 [Speaker 2]
It's endlessly fascinating when we know how to look, which, of course, is what the practice is about. It's teaching us. It's giving us different methodologies
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for looking into our minds and coming to deeper understandings, and it's incredibly interesting.
00:20:47,372 --> 00:21:11,362 [Speaker 1]
Joseph, I wonder if we can take that same lens and look at your evolution as a teacher. What I've been struck in hearing you over the years is... Like you just referred to, "don't waste your suffering," this idea that hits you very deeply, and then you incorporate it into your teaching. Um, you know, when I first met you, there was a hand gesture you would do, and for those of you who are on YouTube, you can see it, in the podcast, not.
00:21:11,362 --> 00:21:11,372 [Speaker 2]
[chuckles]
00:21:11,372 --> 00:21:17,972 [Speaker 1]
But you would just give this hand gesture, and it was so liberating to embody this idea of just letting go. Um-
00:21:17,972 --> 00:21:19,732 [Speaker 2]
Okay, Justin. Justin?
00:21:19,732 --> 00:21:20,532 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:21:20,532 --> 00:21:23,112 [Speaker 2]
Here's your moment.
00:21:23,112 --> 00:21:26,752 [Speaker 2]
[chuckles] Liberation. [chuckles]
00:21:26,752 --> 00:21:28,652 [Speaker 1]
Wonderful!
00:21:28,652 --> 00:21:32,512 [Speaker 2]
We'll try again tomorrow. [chuckles]
00:21:32,512 --> 00:21:36,792 [Speaker 1]
[chuckles] And even more recently, you said this definition of, of awakening being lightening up.
00:21:36,792 --> 00:21:37,052 [Speaker 2]
Right.
00:21:37,052 --> 00:21:38,721 [Speaker 1]
Gosh, have I brought that with me.
00:21:38,721 --> 00:21:38,732 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:21:38,732 --> 00:21:40,982 [Speaker 1]
When I'm all anxious with my kids, with my wife-
00:21:40,982 --> 00:21:40,982 [Speaker 2]
Yeah
00:21:40,982 --> 00:21:44,352 [Speaker 1]
... with work, it's just lighten up, you know? [chuckles]
00:21:44,352 --> 00:21:45,872 [Speaker 2]
Exactly. [chuckles]
00:21:45,872 --> 00:21:46,312 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:21:46,312 --> 00:22:09,472 [Speaker 2]
And, and I can see that in myself. You know, just recently, somebody dug up some old recordings of me teaching, initially back in Naropa in '74, and then I was listening to a few tapes of early talks, and the content was, you know, the basic dharma, but my energy was so somber in those years-
00:22:09,472 --> 00:22:09,482 [Speaker 1]
Mm
00:22:09,482 --> 00:22:30,821 [Speaker 2]
... and I was just so serious. I was a young teacher, and for whatever reason, I felt like I had to present something. I can really feel this lightening up, and in recent years, I've had a lot more fun teaching. Because of that, there's just more relaxation and playing, hopefully in wise way. [chuckles]
00:22:30,821 --> 00:22:47,422 [Speaker 1]
That, that's beautiful, and maybe-- and you kind of just answered the question, Joseph, but maybe to spend a couple more minutes looking at it, how do you go about that process as a teacher? Is it an inward-facing process, an outward-facing process, a bit of both? How are you engaging? 'Cause you do evolve over time.
00:22:47,422 --> 00:23:13,052 [Speaker 2]
Yeah. Well, I think there are many different components. I mean, one is just one's practice hopefully keeps growing with new understandings, and so there's a natural evolution just from the continuation of the practice. And I'll just make an important point here. I don't know how many people who are listening it'll be relevant to. For all teachers,
00:23:13,052 --> 00:24:19,851 [Speaker 2]
and particularly for newer ones, I feel it's incredibly important to keep their practice strong, you know, and retreat time, and really continuing to deepen because the demands-- there's so much interest in the dharma that it's just so easy to have a full year schedule of teaching without taking care of oneself, and I think that's a big mistake because then we start teaching from memory rather than from the living experience of our own unfolding practice. So I think that's really, really important, you know, for all of us. So that's one way, you know, we just keep growing. Another aspect is just through experience over many years of teaching, we get more relaxed, you know, because we become familiar. Been part of quite a few teacher trainings, and-... the most challenging part for new teachers
00:24:19,851 --> 00:24:56,212 [Speaker 2]
is giving a Dharma talk in front of a hundred people. [chuckles] Often, people become nervous wrecks, [laughing] because, you know, that public speaking thing. One has to just go through that phase and learn to be more relaxed, so that takes time. But I think one's own inner relaxation is really an important component of the lightening up. We don't have to be holding ourselves together quite so tightly. [chuckles] And I see that as the younger teachers teach more, and then they get more relaxed, and I think it's a fairly common process.
00:24:56,212 --> 00:25:28,292 [Speaker 0]
I'm really inspired by what you're bringing up here. When you're talking about taking 100% responsibility for our minds, I was just thinking, I can imagine for many people hearing that, it might be a bit of sort of like gaslighting, you know, for some people to hear that. And I was just wondering what kind of qualities it is that we need to really have that openness and that willingness to really look. You summed it up straight away afterwards, saying that quality of curiosity, and then the outcome of that, of being lightening up, which is-
00:25:28,292 --> 00:25:28,611 [Speaker 2]
Yeah
00:25:28,611 --> 00:25:38,202 [Speaker 0]
... such a beautiful quality. Is there a piece of Dharma advice that you used to give that you might now say differently?
00:25:38,202 --> 00:26:12,591 [Speaker 2]
That is a difficult question, because part of the aging process is memory is going through its own transformation, [laughing] let's say. So I would really have to spend some time thinking back to what I might have been saying early on. Well, I can give one example that just comes to mind. So when I first came back from India and started teaching, after having been there for many years, and I was so, so imbued with and inspired by
00:26:12,591 --> 00:26:49,172 [Speaker 2]
the understanding, to whatever extent it was there, of selflessness and emptiness. So in the first years of teaching, when people would come in with just the problems, either in their practice or in their lives, my response in those very early years really revolved about, "Oh, it's no problem, it's all empty." That was my go-to response, because for me, it was so freeing to realize the emptiness of it all. That is very profound advice
00:26:49,172 --> 00:26:59,952 [Speaker 2]
when people are at the place where they can hear it and understand it. Otherwise, it just feels like it's totally missing
00:26:59,952 --> 00:27:02,871 [Speaker 2]
what the other person is going through.
00:27:02,871 --> 00:27:17,232 [Speaker 2]
So it took me a while to let go of, "Oh, it's all empty. What's the problem?" [chuckles] You know, to really hearing where people were coming from. And then
00:27:17,232 --> 00:27:48,452 [Speaker 2]
the teaching became a lot more interesting, the one-on-one meetings with people. I would get interested to the extent that I could enter into the other person's mind and realize, "Okay, where's the hook? Where, where are people getting caught?" So instead of coming with a preconception, "Oh, it's all empty," which for many people wasn't that helpful, this was a way of entering into and connecting
00:27:48,452 --> 00:28:02,632 [Speaker 2]
with their experience in that moment, and then from that place, saying, "Okay, what can be released or what could be understood?" One of the beautiful aspects of teaching in this way, I found that
00:28:02,632 --> 00:28:26,512 [Speaker 2]
the ground for doing that kind of connecting was the ground of metta, of loving kindness, that in that situation, it's just there spontaneously. In those moments, it wasn't a practice. It was just in that intimacy of connection, it was all happening in the field of metta. So that was the beautiful part of it all.
00:28:26,572 --> 00:28:30,002 [Speaker 0]
Maybe, Joseph, I could share a time where that really happened with me.
00:28:30,002 --> 00:28:30,032 [Speaker 2]
Uh-huh, yeah.
00:28:30,032 --> 00:29:03,981 [Speaker 0]
I was doing a long retreat, and I was contemplating fourth of the four thoughts and the suffering of samsara, and what was coming up for me was a lot of grief of having lost my parents. It wasn't until years later in retreat that it really came up for me in a very big way, and my retreat master turned around to me and said... You know, and I was really experiencing tremendous suffering, which I thought was the point of the teaching. It was real compassion that was arising. But he turned around and said, "But it's all empty."
00:29:03,981 --> 00:29:03,991 [Speaker 2]
[laughing]
00:29:03,992 --> 00:29:09,242 [Speaker 0]
And, and I was furious with him, absolutely furious. [laughing]
00:29:09,242 --> 00:29:13,152 [Speaker 2]
[laughing] Yeah.
00:29:13,152 --> 00:29:13,242 [Speaker 0]
So-
00:29:13,242 --> 00:29:14,962 [Speaker 2]
So I wasn't alone. [laughing]
00:29:14,962 --> 00:29:21,591 [Speaker 0]
[chuckles] Yeah, you weren't alone. But following back then, you could almost tune in to what this person was-
00:29:21,591 --> 00:29:21,601 [Speaker 2]
Right
00:29:21,601 --> 00:29:41,432 [Speaker 0]
... experiencing and find the hook. Could you tune in, do you think, to what I was experiencing there with that grief? How was I misunderstanding the emptiness and compassion? How could I have worked with that in a more skillful way?
00:29:41,432 --> 00:29:46,952 [Speaker 2]
I have a whole rap on grief that is not very popular.
00:29:46,952 --> 00:29:49,572 [Speaker 2]
I'm a bit of an outlier
00:29:49,572 --> 00:29:51,772 [Speaker 2]
in
00:29:51,772 --> 00:30:59,348 [Speaker 2]
my understanding [chuckles] of it, so I can share a little bit of what that is, because I find it very interesting, and I'll explain what gave rise to this new understanding that arose. At one point, I just happened to come across this story of the Buddha after his two great disciples, Moggallana and Sariputta-... had died, and his comment was to the sangha: "Oh, it's like the main branches of this great tree have fallen away." To me, that was a very poignant acknowledgement of the loss. So when I read that and felt that, I then contrasted it with the opening paragraph of the Satipatthana Sutta, the sutta on the foundations of mindfulness, in which right in the opening, the Buddha declares, "This is the way for the overcoming of grief, of sorrow, of lamentation." So then how do you put these two together? In one sense, he's acknowledging the loss,
00:30:59,348 --> 00:31:02,187 [Speaker 2]
and on the other side,
00:31:02,187 --> 00:32:47,348 [Speaker 2]
he's saying liberation leads to the overcoming of sorrow, and grief, and lamentation. So that was the first time I began to parse the difference between the experience of grief and the experience of loss. And my understanding is that generally, people just conflate these two. In the face of great loss, it, it's like grief and loss, I think for many people who have not really looked carefully, it's almost the same thing. You know, they're, they're just bound together. But when I, and, you know, we look more closely, we can see that grief is the non-acceptance of the feeling of loss, and that's what gives rise to the grief. So the grief is really about us, and the reason for the non-acceptance of the feeling of loss is because it's very unpleasant. And so like with any kind of pain, the conditioned response is: "I wanna get rid of this. I don't like this." So there's the non-acceptance of it. So what I suggest to people or... Well, back up a minute. Before I talk about any of this, when people are going through the kind of grief you described, knowing what a tender, vulnerable place that is, I always ask permission. I ask, "Do you want to investigate this? There could be another way of understanding it." And sometimes people are open to that, and sometimes people are not ready, and I think that has to be respected. You know, so I needed to say that before going on.
00:32:47,408 --> 00:32:55,268 [Speaker 2]
And so then the instruction would be really, or the suggestion: Can you practice
00:32:55,268 --> 00:33:10,248 [Speaker 2]
opening to whatever the experience of loss is? And maybe there's sadness involved or poignancy, or there could be a lot of associated emotions that are not grief,
00:33:10,248 --> 00:33:48,088 [Speaker 2]
because grief is the non-acceptance of the loss in this way of understanding. So that would be kind of the investigative path. From my perspective, for people who are interested and willing, why not do that upfront? Basically, the process of grief leads to acceptance down the road, but sometimes people can stay in that for years. Why not bring this investigation right up front so that we're fully experiencing the loss but free ourselves from the suffering of grief?
00:33:48,148 --> 00:34:13,628 [Speaker 1]
It's a beautiful answer, Joseph. A nice way of kind of teasing apart that. I wanna shift perspectives or shift topics a little bit. I imagine there's gonna be analogous themes that come up. I was really inspired to see your recent work, Dreamscapes of the Mind: A Book of Poetry. I've been inspired by your writing ever since reading Experience of Insight, one of the first Dharma books I read. Now, this is quite a different modality, a different form of expression-
00:34:13,628 --> 00:34:13,908 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:34:13,908 --> 00:34:23,987 [Speaker 1]
-a different form of creativity, if you will. Could you talk us through a little bit about that process and what it was like for you? What was the impetus and motivation, inspiration-
00:34:23,987 --> 00:34:24,158 [Speaker 2]
Yeah
00:34:24,158 --> 00:34:26,188 [Speaker 1]
... for engaging in such a way?
00:34:26,188 --> 00:35:44,348 [Speaker 2]
It's fairly new. I mean, you know, in the last five or so years that I started doing. Although back in my twenties, I was writing a little bit of poetry, but not a lot. So this was resuscitated when I was seventy-five. I was on vacation with some friends in Spain, and we were just staying in this really beautiful place, and one of them had just been at a reading back in the States, this young Vietnamese poet and writer, Ocean Vuong, who's... I don't know if you're familiar. He's become very, kind of, quite well known. And so we found on YouTube a reading of his poetry, and somehow just listening, it unlocked that energy in me. And in Spain, all of a sudden, I started writing poetry. Fortunately, the friends I was with were extremely supportive. And some of them were okay, some of the poems. Some were not that okay, but they were so supportive and encouraging that it kept me going. If they had been really honest, [laughing] it might have had a different outcome. So that's how it all started, and then
00:35:44,348 --> 00:36:15,388 [Speaker 2]
I just really got into the beauty of the craft. And to me, there's a big overlap between the meditative mind state and the poetic mind space. There's a kind of stillness and a kind of clarity in both. The creativity of poetry and the intuition of meditation really come out of silence of mind. You know, when our minds are just full and busy, I think it's very hard-- that creative
00:36:15,388 --> 00:36:39,556 [Speaker 2]
energy is very hard to access. Over these last five or six years, I'm not very prolific. That, that very thin volume of poetry [chuckles] took five years to accumulate. So it comes when it comes. What I find now and where I see the overlap is sometimes when I'm having a perception-... either of the world or
00:36:39,556 --> 00:37:12,016 [Speaker 2]
the impact of what's happening in the world and my own art, but it's not clear or it's vague or it's confused. If I'm inspired in that experience of being of a felt impact, I find that the creative process of poetry really helps to clarify what I'm feeling, because poetry is usually, not always, but very concise form. I find that it distills
00:37:12,016 --> 00:37:17,396 [Speaker 2]
the confusion of the experience just into its essence.
00:37:17,476 --> 00:39:06,676 [Speaker 2]
If you like, I can read one short poem that really illustrates this. It'll clarify exactly what I'm talking about. I mentioned a little earlier, you know, looking out at nature, the night sky. Well, this last January and February, I was on self-retreat in my home. As part of the natural orbit of Venus, for those two months, Venus was at that place where it's the brightest in the sky from Earth. I was on retreat and really in a silent, quiet place, and every night, Venus would just be illuminated so bright in the sky, and I have a really big window. It just became like a shining friend, you know? It was so beautiful. This was happening in the midst of everything that was happening in the country at the time, and a lot of turmoil and whatever. This is the poem that emerged from it, and the title of the poem... And this poem is not in the book because it's more recent. The title of it is Venus in the Western Sky. "My companion in its brightest month, a diamond cool radiance lingers above the horizon, reminding me, in the words of the poet, to care and not to care. As all the earthbound madness engulfs our lives, steady, faithful, a light in the darkness as the day morphs into night." You know, and, yeah, it was bringing in that quality of equanimity
00:39:06,676 --> 00:39:19,756 [Speaker 2]
that, in the words of the poet, this is from T.S. Eliot: "To care, teach me to care and not to care." And it felt like that just acknowledged the suffering that was going on and
00:39:19,756 --> 00:39:25,216 [Speaker 2]
a response to it, all inspired by Venus.
00:39:25,216 --> 00:39:45,516 [Speaker 2]
When that came out and when that got crafted, I could feel my heart settle in this, "Okay, this is, this is a way to be at this time." So this, this is kind of the overlap of poetry, poetry and dharma and engagement and stillness.
00:39:45,516 --> 00:39:57,476 [Speaker 1]
It's tremendous to hear you say that, Joseph, and it seems like in the major religions and spiritual practices that have arisen in human history, they all have this core component of kind of pith, as we say in our-
00:39:57,476 --> 00:39:57,556 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:39:57,556 --> 00:40:06,596 [Speaker 1]
-our tradition, right? Getting to the pith, and there's a way that what you just read, it can cultivate a heart space that isn't necessarily accessible all the time.
00:40:06,596 --> 00:40:08,116 [Speaker 2]
Yes, exactly.
00:40:08,116 --> 00:40:08,356 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:40:08,356 --> 00:40:09,996 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:40:09,996 --> 00:40:47,236 [Speaker 1]
You referenced the kind of relationship between meditation and poetry. I remember Guy Armstrong, I was sitting on a retreat with him years ago, and he said for periods of time, he would put a notebook next to his cushion because there would be a lot of creative process coming in meditation, and very valuable elements, and he would actually pause the practice and jot down a note, right? Maybe a phrase that synopsizes something. What is the relationship for you between these two modalities, creative expression, poetry, and the actual meditative practice? Are they intertwined? Is that where you write, how you write? Could you say a little bit about that?
00:40:47,236 --> 00:41:01,376 [Speaker 2]
I don't do what Guy did. There is this phenomenon, I'm sure it's in Tibetan practice as well, but you may remember [chuckles] our referencing from the early days, the phenomenon of vipassana brilliance,
00:41:01,376 --> 00:41:25,256 [Speaker 2]
when you're sitting and you just have all these brilliant ideas, you know? [laughing] They're brilliant, at least in the moment, and then by the next day, they're no longer so brilliant. I said earlier, when my life is busy, it's really hard to access this space, but when I'm on retreat, it's not so much when I'm actually in a formal sitting,
00:41:25,256 --> 00:41:35,076 [Speaker 2]
but just outside of the formal sitting, because my mind is quiet, relatively quiet, that's when
00:41:35,076 --> 00:42:06,136 [Speaker 2]
this will emerge, and then I'll take the time, just in the day, "Okay, I'm going to sit down and try to craft or work on a poem." So it is in the context of a still meditation retreat, but it doesn't overlap the actual sitting practice, although it can in the walking. There's one little haiku-like poem that came on this last retreat. I was just doing walking meditation up and down my driveway, which is what I like to do. It's long enough, and
00:42:06,136 --> 00:42:21,175 [Speaker 2]
it's just a good place for me for walking. And I don't know how it came to mind, but actually, [chuckles] if you're patient enough, there were actually two that came to mind. But since they're both haiku-like, they're very short.
00:42:21,236 --> 00:42:32,876 [Speaker 2]
So the first one, I was walking, and I just heard a bird, you know, the song of a bird? And I think this is somewhat Dzogchen-like,
00:42:32,876 --> 00:42:49,216 [Speaker 2]
and so just spontaneously, this came into my mind: "Birdsong in the empty sky of my mind."... and it was just that very interesting toggle between
00:42:49,216 --> 00:42:52,416 [Speaker 2]
me here and bird in the sky,
00:42:52,416 --> 00:43:50,696 [Speaker 2]
and me, the mind, everything arising within the mind. Two very different perspectives, and so it's just a really interesting dharma exploration of watching my mind toggle between those two perspectives on experience. So that was one. The other was... And again, I, I have no idea where this came from. I must have been thinking about somebody dying or something like that. So the first line came, "May you rest in peace." And then the second two lines came, "Why wait till you're dead?" [laughing] So I think that should be the motto of IMS: "May you rest in peace. Why wait till you're dead?" [laughing] Might as well rest in peace now. [laughing] So this is, this is part of my process. [laughing]
00:43:50,696 --> 00:43:56,446 [Speaker 0]
[laughing] Joseph, I, I love it. I think you should copyright that. [laughing]
00:43:56,446 --> 00:43:57,236 [Speaker 2]
[laughing]
00:43:57,236 --> 00:44:55,606 [Speaker 0]
I love what you're sharing here about this creative energy, and really fostering that. And I find that so much of the Buddha Dharma and so many of the teachings that we get so engrossed in can be very conceptual, very intellectual, and it's very inspiring to know that you've branched off in this way. We have a lot of creative students at the institute. To talk a little bit more about the, the social impact projects that they're engaging in, they're really tapping into these unique qualities, these unique skills and gifts that they have, and really sharing that with the world. Is this something that you thought or direction that you thought you might have, have gone in? As you were speaking, I was thinking of, of Beth Jacobs, who we've interviewed before for our Abhidharma courses, and I think, like you, she has a very analytical mind. She's really able to... You know, loves the, the Abhidharma with the lists, and the classifications-
00:44:55,606 --> 00:44:56,085 [Speaker 2]
[chuckles]
00:44:56,085 --> 00:45:04,476 [Speaker 0]
-and all of that, and yet she also is a poet. Is, is this something that you knew that you had in you, or just something that's come about recently?
00:45:04,476 --> 00:45:17,336 [Speaker 2]
Yeah, not really. I've been writing dharma books for a very long time. I've always appreciated the craft of writing
00:45:17,336 --> 00:45:26,236 [Speaker 2]
and the clarity that can come from refining the craft. I really love that. But the poetry part, that
00:45:26,236 --> 00:45:35,196 [Speaker 2]
was completely unexpected. It came [chuckles] as I described. I mean, it just came all of a sudden, and it's like
00:45:35,196 --> 00:45:52,316 [Speaker 2]
that doorway opened quite unexpectedly and, and beautifully. The clarity of the craft of writing, I think, was always there, appreciating that and loving to work in that, but the poetic form came a bit as a surprise. [chuckles]
00:45:52,316 --> 00:46:08,156 [Speaker 1]
Joseph, it's inspiring to think that way. I think what comes on reference just briefly is, for some of our students, they enter into this creative space, and they, they doubt whether or not they have something to offer or if something will emerge, and there've been a couple wonderful examples, kind of like what you're describing, where it did emerge-
00:46:08,156 --> 00:46:08,166 [Speaker 2]
Mm-hmm
00:46:08,166 --> 00:46:10,736 [Speaker 1]
... and there was something within that hadn't been expressed yet.
00:46:10,736 --> 00:46:10,946 [Speaker 2]
Right, right.
00:46:10,946 --> 00:46:20,736 [Speaker 1]
And I would say it's kind of through that, for me at least, what I've observed myself and working with them, it's like as the mind settles, those sprouts are able to be seen.
00:46:20,736 --> 00:46:22,686 [Speaker 2]
Yes, yes. Yes. Yes, exactly.
00:46:22,686 --> 00:46:22,686 [Speaker 1]
You know?
00:46:22,686 --> 00:46:47,896 [Speaker 2]
That's, that's why I, I've, I've seen for a long time, previously with dharma writing but more recently with the poetry, that silence, to me, is the wellspring of creativity. You know, just that silence of mind and... Because then everything, it gets very intuitive. We're not just rehearsing old thoughts. We're kind of just still and quiet, and then things can emerge.
00:46:47,896 --> 00:46:59,956 [Speaker 1]
Why don't we dive into an audience question? A little different perspective: What has Western psychology added to your understanding of Buddhism, and what has it possibly obscured?
00:46:59,956 --> 00:47:56,316 [Speaker 2]
Mm-hmm. Well, approach it from my experience as a teaching, and I referenced one of the issues early on about overriding the psychological concerns by saying it's just all empty. So there was a whole learning in learning how to give credence to the psychological dynamics, basically to the content of what's going on in the person's mind and heart, and the conflicts or the struggles. Somewhere in between, at times, too often, [chuckles] depending on the person, the basic meditation instruction, the classical straight instruction, might not be accessible at that time if they're really immersed in some emotional, psychological suffering, to say, "Well, be mindful of it."
00:47:56,316 --> 00:49:14,472 [Speaker 2]
Often, it- one needs something more in those situations. I'm not a trained psychologist, so I'm sure there are many more tools that are out there than I'm aware of. But in learning how to work with people in that situation, at those times, emphasizing the emptiness of it all and just let go, it would be much more, you know, trying to offer some guidance and suggestions for changing the relationship or learning how to relate to the content, to the story, in a more skillful way, in a wiser way, in a more accepting way. So it's entering into the psychological domain. When people have some degree of spaciousness around all that, then-... I think it is possible to really point to the emptiness and to the selflessness of it all, and to step out of the content and out of the storyline into the very nature of thought and emotion. One example of this shift from the content and story to the underlying dharma understanding, one thing that I have found completely fascinating and
00:49:14,472 --> 00:50:35,392 [Speaker 2]
which I've suggested a lot to people, when they're having a lot of thoughts, and particularly if they're associated with strong emotions, pose the question: What is a thought? Not what is the thought saying, but what is it as a phenomenon? That's a very good time to ask that question, is when there are a lot of thoughts. That's what's happening in the mind at that time. So if we ask the question, then it really allows people to turn their mind back, to look directly at the nature of thought. When we look in that way, as you well know, and there's a, a Dzogchen phrase for it, of how thoughts self-liberate. When we look directly at a thought, we find... The expression I use is, "It's little more than nothing." [chuckles] And yet, when we're lost in the content, they dominate our lives. I mean, thoughts are drive- they're, they're like little dictators in the mind. "Go here, go there, do this, do that." [chuckles] And we're just driven by our thoughts. And yet, when we really look at the- look directly at the nature of thought, there's hardly anything there, and it self-liberates. So this is kind of
00:50:35,392 --> 00:50:43,752 [Speaker 2]
how the two can work together, but each at the appropriate time. I think a potential limitation
00:50:43,752 --> 00:51:07,472 [Speaker 2]
of just the psychological approach would depend on the understanding of the therapist. But if there is no understanding of selflessness, then that work could simply be reinforcing the sense of self instead of using the content and the story
00:51:07,472 --> 00:51:21,752 [Speaker 2]
to go underneath it, to experience the emptiness of it. That's just one caution, and of course, there are a lot of very skilled therapists who do have a good dharma understanding and weave the two together.
00:51:21,752 --> 00:51:37,832 [Speaker 1]
I really appreciate that answer, Joseph, and for me, there's an element here where I've personally worked with, with therapists and with many meditation teachers. I remember how revolutionary it was when I first started to practice, and I heard, "The story isn't important," right? The story-
00:51:37,832 --> 00:51:37,992 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:51:37,992 --> 00:51:44,452 [Speaker 1]
A- a- and it wasn't delivered with maybe the... It was delivered pretty insistently and maybe harsh, right?
00:51:44,452 --> 00:51:46,651 [Speaker 2]
Right. It's all empty. [chuckles]
00:51:46,652 --> 00:51:48,232 [Speaker 1]
Yeah, get out of your head.
00:51:48,232 --> 00:51:48,472 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:51:48,472 --> 00:51:51,132 [Speaker 1]
Get out of your head, right? Get into experience, get into your body.
00:51:51,132 --> 00:51:51,352 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:51:51,392 --> 00:51:58,112 [Speaker 1]
And I know now there's a lot of analogous psychotherapeutic approaches that highlight that too, but it was just so liberating-
00:51:58,112 --> 00:51:58,122 [Speaker 2]
Yeah
00:51:58,122 --> 00:52:01,772 [Speaker 1]
... to see that, and obviously, there's a balance to it. Great answer.
00:52:01,772 --> 00:52:24,312 [Speaker 2]
And, and that instruction has to be given at the time when a person can do it. To say the words, even if they're true, if the person is not at the place where they can access it, it's not a skillful means at that point. That's when kind of entering into the story a little bit can be helpful
00:52:24,312 --> 00:52:28,252 [Speaker 2]
to help guide people to that space.
00:52:28,252 --> 00:52:42,012 [Speaker 0]
When I look at awareness itself, sometimes it feels clear, sometimes it feels like nothing. How can I distinguish between dullness and the recognition of true awareness?
00:52:42,012 --> 00:52:49,912 [Speaker 2]
Well, there's another dimension to it, which I think is really important, which was not in the question.
00:52:51,112 --> 00:53:13,972 [Speaker 2]
But with respect to awareness versus dullness, I was gonna say if it's dullness, then that's a good indication it's not a clear, [chuckles] a clear understanding of awareness. But then my mind went to, "No, it... One could be aware of dullness," and then even if dullness is there,
00:53:13,972 --> 00:53:18,872 [Speaker 2]
if one is looking back into what's knowing the dullness,
00:53:18,872 --> 00:53:34,852 [Speaker 2]
one could have clarity of awareness, even with dullness. I'm trying this out on size. You can let me know if this makes sense or not. [chuckles] One indication might be, is the mind
00:53:34,852 --> 00:53:39,972 [Speaker 2]
giving emphasis to what's being known
00:53:39,972 --> 00:53:53,872 [Speaker 2]
or to the knowing? And so if one kind of gets a sense that the mind is kind of glommed on to the appearance or the object of what's known,
00:53:53,872 --> 00:54:18,472 [Speaker 2]
so then one would know. No, so that- that's not a clear recognition of awareness because it's the object which has become predominant. Now, you can't separate them. I mean, the knowing and the appearance, and knowing the object, they're always together, but which is foreground, which is background? And so one way of describing how to tell the difference
00:54:18,472 --> 00:54:31,131 [Speaker 2]
is, where is the attention landing? Is it landing on the object primarily or opening to the knowing of it? So that would be one
00:54:31,192 --> 00:55:43,080 [Speaker 2]
way of parsing the difference. But there's a next step, which I think is really important and quite subtle. There's a lot of teachings now which talk about a rest in awareness, and that becomes a meditative instruction.... I don't think it's complete, because one could be resting in awareness with a very subtle identification with that awareness, and so in that, one is not experiencing the empty nature of awareness, and that to me is crucial, because otherwise we're making awareness the home of self. But it's very subtle, because awareness is not a tangible object. Uh, I think it takes quite a lot of discernment, first to rest in the awareness as opposed to resting primarily on the object, but then also realizing the empty nature of awareness, so we're not identifying with that. There's a lot in that question, and it's really, I feel, quite a profound practice.
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:58,920 [Speaker 1]
Thank you, Joseph. There are certain events or incidences that occur in my life again and again, and I go through suffering and pain. How do I identify what it's trying to teach me and overcome the suffering?
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:25,720 [Speaker 2]
I'll just share my own idiosyncratic take on that. Other teachers may have a completely different viewpoint. But for me, the phrase, "What is it trying to teach me?" a little red flag goes up, and I'm not exactly sure, but that's why I say it's idiosyncratic. That's just my response to that phrase. For me, the more important question
00:56:25,720 --> 00:56:49,400 [Speaker 2]
is, what's the cause of the suffering? Rather than what it's trying to teach me. Although one could say it's the same thing. [chuckles] So it's just how one hears these phrases. But what's it trying to teach me would morph into a whole story about oneself and one's life and this and that, whereas what is the cause of this suffering seems to me
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:53,920 [Speaker 2]
much more pinpointed in the moment
00:56:53,920 --> 00:57:04,520 [Speaker 2]
to say, "Okay, in this moment, what's the cause of the suffering that's happening?" I like the precision of that, and I'll just give
00:57:04,520 --> 01:00:50,480 [Speaker 2]
one example at least. And again, this is really interesting and can lead to many different methods for addressing it, and that is really seeing very clearly the interconditionality of thought and emotion. And I have been totally amazed to actually see that in the moment. So just, for example, one could be sitting or just at any time, and maybe you have the thought of somebody who did something hurtful. Often it's a-- the thought comes, and immediately we feel some emotion about it. The thought conditions the emotion right in that moment, and it can be the other way. We can be in an emotional state, and it conditions a lot of thoughts. So the first thing I would do with these repeated patterns is just to really see very precisely, to track the whole arising of what's going on moment to moment. Thought, what's the thought? Triggering a certain emotion. I had a very striking example of this. It's a long story, which I'm gonna try to abbreviate into half a minute. I was on a, a, a two-month self-retreat. I was sitting... I was having a little back problem, and I thought, "I'll go get a chiropractic adjustment." This is in the middle of the retreat. I had been to chiropractors a lot, so I said, "Yeah, I'll just kind of take care of it." So I left. It was on a self-retreat. I went, went out. It was disaster. Even though it was just a normal adjustment just from the outside, but from it, my body went into shock and froze, and this became a three-year un-unwinding. It was, it was terrible. Anyway, I left the adjustment, I went back to the retreat, and trying to keep sitting and walking, but the thought that kept coming in my mind over and over and over again was, how could I have been so stupid to leave the retreat and go get a chiropractic adjustment in the middle of the retreat when the whole energy system is so open? So that thought, "How can I have been so stupid?" But that thought was so seductive because I felt it was true. It was so seductive. That thought came, and I would be gone for half an hour in self-recrimination and anguish and all of it. I call it my anguish retreat. It was the most difficult one I've ever had. But after some time, I began to see this connection between the thought and the emotion. That thought, "How can I have been so stupid?" I realized I have to catch that as soon as it arises. I cannot give it any airtime at all because it's so seductive. So I just-- I got so vigilant for the arising of that thought. I evolved what I called cowboy dharma, which is, as soon as the thought in the mind came, knock it out of the sky, [chuckles] knock it out of the mind. Uh, and I actually started doing it with my patients. Joseph's contribution to Tibetan mudras, [chuckles] cowboy mudra.
01:00:50,480 --> 01:01:14,007 [Speaker 2]
And it worked because I just didn't give it time-... to morph into this whole anguished story. That's kind of just one example, and I'm not suggesting this is the only- cowboy dharma is not the only approach one might take [chuckles], but for me, in that situation, it was. The key point here is just
01:01:14,008 --> 01:01:55,448 [Speaker 2]
connecting with the actual cause of the suffering on a moment-to-moment level, and it's often in this relationship of thought to emotion. If we can see that as it's happening, then we don't have to go down that long storyline that may come. So it's that kind of precision. When we're really caught in something very powerful, it takes real precision to see, "Okay, what's the cause and effect here, you know, in this process?" And it becomes interesting, even though
01:01:55,448 --> 01:02:12,728 [Speaker 2]
in times of great suffering, it's, it's all colored by the suffering, but that can also motivate the interest. "Okay, how can I understand this?" If we understand we are 100% responsible for our suffering, it always comes back
01:02:12,728 --> 01:02:16,928 [Speaker 2]
to taking that responsibility, which then can trump the interest.
01:02:18,988 --> 01:02:25,298 [Speaker 0]
Beautiful. Thank you, Joseph. It sounds so simple, and yet it's such a profound shift.
01:02:25,298 --> 01:02:25,607 [Speaker 2]
[chuckles]
01:02:25,607 --> 01:02:29,058 [Speaker 0]
It really is. I'm sure we- we'll all have our- [chuckles]
01:02:29,058 --> 01:02:29,668 [Speaker 2]
[chuckles]
01:02:29,668 --> 01:02:36,668 [Speaker 0]
... opportunities to, to be cowboys. [laughing]
01:02:36,668 --> 01:02:48,968 [Speaker 0]
You've spent so many years in deep retreat and teaching. What's something small and unexpected that brings you joy these days?
01:02:49,048 --> 01:02:51,708 [Speaker 2]
What brings me
01:02:51,708 --> 01:03:00,948 [Speaker 2]
a quiet kind of joy, it's actually the subject of a two-paragraph book that I've been
01:03:00,948 --> 01:03:34,488 [Speaker 2]
wanting to write forever, and the title of the book is... It may even be just one paragraph long. [chuckles] The title of the book is The Myth of Intimacy, and what I mean by that, what the myth is, that it takes two people to be intimate. Because my experience, and this c- really comes out of meditation, is that when we're really present,
01:03:34,488 --> 01:04:04,687 [Speaker 2]
there is an intimacy in that moment with the experience of the moment because there's no distance, there's no separation. It's intimate, and that this is available all the time. And I know that it's like c- I'm engaged with a lot of people, but I live alone. So when I'm home, I'm home alone, and I love it. I really love it because
01:04:04,688 --> 01:04:17,548 [Speaker 2]
I've just practiced this quality, and I feel this no matter what I'm doing. I'm just... Whether I'm taking a step or I'm going upstairs or downstairs or engaging in some activity,
01:04:17,548 --> 01:04:29,228 [Speaker 2]
it's all very intimate. I don't remember the last time I felt lonely or bored or even being alone because every moment is just
01:04:29,228 --> 01:05:59,587 [Speaker 2]
complete. And it reminded me of something my first teacher, Maninderji, said. This was when I first went to India. I was in Bodh Gaya studying with him. He was a very quirky teacher, [chuckles] and I learned a lot. I remember one day we were walking just through some of the villages around Bodh Gaya, around the main temple there, and we would just walk, going for a walk, and he would s- he said something which, at the time, I thought was completely hokey. I was about 23, 24. We were walking around, and he would say: "You know, I'm never lonely. I'm friendly with the clouds. I'm friendly with the flowers. I'm friendly with this. I'm fr..." And again, 23 years old, "Really?" [chuckles] But over the years, I have totally come to appreciate that because of seeing through the myth of intimacy, that it has to be between two people, which, of course, that also can be hugely intimate, but if one subscribes to that myth, then when it's not in that situation, there's this endless longing and wanting and feeling incomplete, which is all arising out of the myth. S- so for me, just being in that way of being, th- as I said, it's a quiet joy. It's not, it's not exuberance, but yeah, it just feels, feels complete.
01:05:59,587 --> 01:06:08,008 [Speaker 1]
Joseph, there's another similarity. In our opening episode of the podcast with Mingyur Rinpoche, he said, "I, I don't really feel lonely." [chuckles]
01:06:08,008 --> 01:06:08,428 [Speaker 2]
Yeah. Yeah.
01:06:08,428 --> 01:06:17,488 [Speaker 1]
I mean, there's a resonance there. Thinking back to Bodh Gaya, the historical Buddha, because the historical Buddha interacted with people seemingly quite often, at least that's how-
01:06:17,488 --> 01:06:17,658 [Speaker 2]
Yeah
01:06:17,658 --> 01:06:27,868 [Speaker 1]
... it's indicated historically. I imagine just a real sense of contentment that was pervasive in experience, and that's... I think that's really remarkable-
01:06:27,868 --> 01:06:27,877 [Speaker 2]
Yeah
01:06:27,877 --> 01:06:30,468 [Speaker 1]
... these days. I feel like most people are yearning for-
01:06:30,468 --> 01:06:30,978 [Speaker 2]
Yeah. Yeah
01:06:30,978 --> 01:06:34,087 [Speaker 1]
... for intimacy outside. It's a beautiful answer.
01:06:34,087 --> 01:06:51,178 [Speaker 2]
Yeah. It's always accessible. We just have to drop into the moment. Of course, that takes practice. I mean, it's easy to say, but as we all know, the mind can get very distracted and caught up in wanting and longing and all of that, [chuckles] and we forget. But the more we practice it-
01:06:51,178 --> 01:06:51,178 [Speaker 1]
Yeah
01:06:51,178 --> 01:06:52,928 [Speaker 2]
... it becomes more the way we are.
01:06:52,928 --> 01:06:56,587 [Speaker 1]
It's just such a powerful process to view your development-
01:06:56,587 --> 01:06:56,728 [Speaker 2]
Mm-hmm
01:06:56,728 --> 01:07:02,047 [Speaker 1]
... and the authenticity and the intimacy with which you share. It's just, it's just amazing.
01:07:02,048 --> 01:07:07,547 [Speaker 0]
I just wanted to add to that and say how much I've enjoyed your writing, Joseph, as well as your teaching-
01:07:07,548 --> 01:07:07,658 [Speaker 2]
Thank you
01:07:07,658 --> 01:07:16,148 [Speaker 0]
... your dharma talks. I can really see how you have a genuine passion for and such a beautiful skill, the way that you use words, and-
01:07:16,148 --> 01:07:16,308 [Speaker 2]
Mm
01:07:16,308 --> 01:07:20,388 [Speaker 0]
... I'm really looking forward to reading some of your poetry. I haven't read any yet-
01:07:20,388 --> 01:07:21,218 [Speaker 2]
Good [chuckles]
01:07:21,218 --> 01:07:23,108 [Speaker 0]
... but definitely I'll be tuning in.
01:07:23,108 --> 01:07:23,328 [Speaker 2]
Uh-huh, great.
01:07:23,328 --> 01:07:24,567 [Speaker 0]
Thank you so much. Thank you-
01:07:24,567 --> 01:07:25,298 [Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah
01:07:25,298 --> 01:07:28,688 [Speaker 0]
... for all your life of practice. It's such an inspiration.
01:07:28,688 --> 01:07:29,258 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
01:07:29,258 --> 01:07:29,268 [Speaker 0]
Yeah.
01:07:29,268 --> 01:07:34,608 [Speaker 2]
You're very welcome. It's a pleasure having these conversations. Thank you. [gentle music]
01:07:34,608 --> 01:08:06,388 [Speaker 3]
Thanks for listening to this edition of Living Dharma. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd be grateful if you left a review, subscribed to the channel, or shared it with somebody that you love. As a 501[c]3, the Tergar Institute relies on your generosity to continue offering transformational programs rooted in Vajrayana Buddhism. To support our work and explore our course offerings, visit us at tergarinstitute.org. Until next time, may your awareness be steady, may your heart be open, and may your wisdom be ever present.