Speaker: 0:07

Welcome to Living Dharma, a podcast from the Tergar Institute. I'm here with my co-host Justin means to bring Buddhist wisdom Each episode features conversations with practitioners, teachers, and change makers who are living the path in real, grounded and inspiring ways. We're so glad you're here. Welcome back, everybody, for another episode of Living Dharma. Today we're joined in honored to Hayes, a Dharma teacher, author, thinker in the transmission of Devin's life and work emerge from a unique point of view, one that's grounded in long retreat as well as practice in everyday life. She spent years in contemplation and meditation and has walked the path with her long term partner, Nico. Throughout our conversation, we journey, her time in deep and guiding students, and her with Mingyur Rinpoche. We talk about what retreat really does to a person, about the book she's written, about healthy relationship as a spiritual path, and about how we bring the depths of practice into the texture of our ordinary lives. This conversation is indeed It's a spacious, reflective dialogue about how silence and solitude inform how we show up with others, about what it means to truly commit to practice, to a partner, to a life oriented around awakening. We're deeply grateful for Devin, for her generosity and clarity, her depth, and for being with us today. So without further ado, our So welcome, everyone to this We're thrilled to have our guests here today, Devin Hayes, um, who is just a brilliant person. Lovely, lovely, lovely, great We're just thrilled to have you, So thanks for joining. Oh thank you. I was just so honored and Fantastic. So we're going to dive right in. Um, and we start with the same Um, and so, so the question is, applying the dharma, as we say you think and talk and teach and So what does that mean for you in our life? Yeah, this is the central I feel like I've been circling life, you know? Really, since I met the Dharma. So lately, I've been And I talked to so many people the practice into our lives, home life and more. The reframe for me has been, how do I bring my life to my practice? You know, if my practice is I want to be living, you know, I I want to be holding pure I want to be in touch with my lineage and the blessings as Then it's really like, how do I build my life or frame my life from this place, you know, of, of practice, whatever it looks like. And often it's pretty messy. You know, as Rinpoche says, So, you know, it's busy and lazy But that has meant, for me really redefining and broadening my definition of what practice looks like. So these days, with a lot of humility, I have to say, it's like not a lot of formal meditation. Actually, I'm lucky if I can get of formal meditation every day. Not always doing that, but the Practice speaking and listening. Practice relational practice, practice that all has really And I'm really interested in, you know, how do we hold the view? How do we stay connected to the Right in the mess when we're, at our learning edge and humbled That's very interesting to me That's brilliant. That's a great start. Is this a shift that happened You said and I love this phrase, bring life to the Dharma. Um, was that a shift in your Or is that something you've kind of identified right from the beginning? Um, this importance of of Yeah. Of bringing life to dharma or Yeah. Bringing my life to my practice. Um, it's like. Yeah, bringing my life into my That's been really since we Um, so about two years ago, a little over two years ago, Niko and I came out of our our three year retreat. And that really, for me, was a big pivot point, uh, in adult, you know, my whole adult life, I met my teachers very young, at twenty years old, and I'd wanted to do three year retreat for a couple decades. And then in twenty nineteen, we began that process. So then when we came out in the everything was different. You know, we were living out of Um, our friends and family Of course, the world had been through the pandemic at that point. And so it was a lucky it was very lucky that we could kind of reconfigure what our lives looked like. And, you know, from having been immersed for some years in tantra, it really was then, okay, how do I bring life into my practice? How do I maintain the depth and the momentum that I've gained through all of this retreat time, which I have to say, even my retreat time felt, um, humbling? You know, it wasn't like the clean, kind of perfect retreat that you always imagined for yourself. So that in itself was, you know, But it was helpful. You know, it's like, okay, well, to retreat conditions, you know, that feels deeply connected, but or idealized kind of way that Beautiful. Thank you so much, Devin! I'd love to hear more about your But just picking up on on your last question, um, you know, you said about wanting to to really bring the drama into your life through speaking, listening, traveling. And I was looking earlier on on dharma mentoring and really. Yeah, just bringing this quality transitions, you know, really Do you see, um, in your work with with the people that you meet and people that come to you for mentoring? Do you see particular themes coming up that are really relevant, where people where you're able to really support people bringing the dharma into their life? Um, very much so. You know, this question again, is kind of a central one for people. You know, there's a very basic question around formal practice and momentum and how to keep the discipline of that kind of consistency every day in the midst of parenting and working and caregiving and all of the things. So that's a really common theme. Um, the other common theme I see There's a lot of, um, doubt, you unworthiness questioning, you this or if I'm doing it right. So that seems to be kind of a collective hindrance that I see often. Um, the other piece to name that is it's a very cultural So I think some of that question practice in our lives, how do to the sense of divine pride or doubt and unworthiness? I think this is because we're lineage into a very secular lay us are in, in the West. so. And if not monastic, then a You know, we're in a lineage retreat, and I'm lucky because but a lot of people don't. And so I think I feel my voice like, how do we actually keep really does have fruition, that the very real and complicated during these times. I love that piece, that idea of That's something that the institute, we really feel like we're kind of like marinating in constantly, you know, because a lot of our programming happens in the traditional monastic space. But of course, most of our The large, large, large Um, I'm curious, kind of push on that a little bit and understand when you when you're doing this interpretation, this translation of a monastic or retreat based lineage. Are there pieces that you kind Or maybe deemphasizing because You say something about that. Yeah. This is the paradox that we're You know, and I do work with a lot of people who have aspirations for long retreat or deep practice. So I feel like I need to be honest, that that's the way I've been transformed. You know, it is requiring a lot, requires a lot of time and So it's tempting to leave that allay people's fears. And, and I think is so good at accessible for everybody. You're doing great. You know, keep going. He has such confidence in all of But I'm always walking this line, I feel, of holding that balance of people who come with a lot of yearning for longer retreat. Um, and then, you know, difficult life circumstances, but but wanting to, like, honor it and feed it like, yeah, it's great to do a lot of retreat and practice. That's true. We do go far. You know, these practices are realized in these very refined conditions. And the other piece of that is a the only other place we ever of our lives. And it doesn't work to fight our long for something that isn't That the real Dharma is in us, relationships and the way we fulfilling our responsibilities So I really feel committed to I feel like we need to support depth, practice as much as we can, and maybe the depth actually comes through really living our, you know, committed, routine, busy schedule in a way that that brings it right, you know, to the nitty gritty of how we're talking to our kids and, you know, how are we being in our families? So I think it's both and and people feel that tension, you know. But we gotta, I think, hold two We gotta hold both of those. And I think that that way we're It's really easy, I think, to for many years, for myself. Um, maybe I was, you know, a coming to the dharma so young doing three year retreat, you retreat took me some time. Um, I actually thought I was Maybe this is another just always wanted to be a nun. And I met His Holiness Karmapa one, still in college. And I said to him, you know, I you ordain me? You know, basically like, can I And he said, no. He said, you know, your path actually is probably one to, you know, go back to your country, live in your country. Be a layperson. You don't have to learn a new You know you you can apply mindfulness all the time in your life. He said, just be mindful all the You know, no problem. Which is easier said than done. But but in some ways, I did feel like that was kind of a karmic assignment for me, that, you know, that that this question that we're circling is, is very much how I've lived for those, you know, twenty five years since. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing I think, I mean, I take my hat off to anyone who goes back to the West and does what you're doing, like really bringing the Dharma into a very different culture. And I think, you know, in many in a monastery and put on the surrounded by Buddhists in and, and all the rest. Well, there's different roles. Kunzang. I think they each have their challenges, and it takes all of us, you know, in our different ways. Yeah. Um, I appreciated what you said tempting to leave out that retreat really requires a lot. Um, and I think, you know, I've seen that happen a lot where people have come into wanting to do longer treat with so many expectations. Um, and yeah, that sort of just doesn't, doesn't carry people really serve them. Um, could you say a little bit about what you gained from your longer retreat that you were able to bring back into your daily life? Was it discipline or was it more Um, what what? Yeah. What did you gain from that that's helped you in your path forward? I seem to keep wanting to speak It was like deep confidence, you deity that we talk about in worth and belonging in the transmission that happened, you so actually tender talking about innermost request, I think, from want to belong in this lineage and some sometimes inaccessible layperson, as a young person. Um, and what I felt I was so, so support and also a bunch of I was, um, the recipient of the Uh, so that felt like something came out being like, okay, I I'm good. You know, like, I could die now. I did the thing. Um, and on the other side of wow, these practices are hard They're so profound. You know, in three years, we And there was a lot of I hit up against my own physical like having to adapt and shift schedule looks like. And, you know, I had all this modify and soften and go gently Um, you know, do more relational There was a lot of modification So it's an interesting mix of empowered and also feeling like you know, just really starting. Yeah. Starting out. I think it's important just to like, recognize that, because I've heard other three year retreatants which I'm in the camp, you two are wonderful yogis. I'm in the camp where I was kind and then life entered. My beautiful wife, lovely kids, going to look like? But I think it's important to we can I think we deal with this if you do with your students and work with is like, we come with where we are efficient in the of rough term and we go into our objectives we're reaching and we bring that to the dorm. And oftentimes I feel like I this, like short term incessant need to improve. So two part question. Do you experience that and is defusing, um, those expectations this experience of kind of just iceberg, as you said? Yeah. I mean, this is sort of a wise effort question, and I can speak a lot to my own journey of basically like less and less and less effort. Um, I was just remembering I think we met when you were in You know, we met in Bodhgaya, So I we've all we've had like our different, you know, iterations of how to belong in the lineage and what our, our contexts are going to unfold into. So I think the path of parenting and, you know, family that's so valid too. Um, yeah. So I'll tell I'll tell a story your your question about over of retreat, we made a beeline in where, you know, it was kind of Um, hundreds of people there. You know, I think we did I don't Pol three and four, maybe some And, uh, we were lucky enough to know, and just thank him for his And, um, the question we asked was because we were kind of on the brink of building a busier teaching schedule and driving all over the country in our van and, you know, revisiting friends and kind of building up, um, our lives as dharma teachers. And we asked him, you know, you're so busy all the time, like, how do you have the energy for it? How do you sustain, you know, And, uh, he was so humble. I mean, he was so honest. He was like, yeah, you're right. I am really busy. I get up early in the morning have to talk to and taking care know, meals with donors and then recording YouTube videos Um, But he said to me, he said, really get tired, I just don't. And I think the reason is know, I really see how much this It's serving them. I see it every day. It's really good work. And so I just have a lot of And it was such a transmission of like, definitely I'm not there. You know, I do get tired. And yet there's the potential And I think that's the outcome maybe of this wise effort that you're naming. And we're all training in it. We're all learning. Um, but it's like an effortless You know, Rinpoche has so much experience and so much bodhichitta. And also, you know, he's getting that that really is energizing. So I think that's what I found it's a lot less doing, you know, I don't have the energy like I the thousands of Frustrations I used to be so such a good I would like learn the sadhanas all the details by heart. And now I got to tell you both Yogi. You know, I don't really know much when I'm doing, uh, white Tara I'm really just feeling into the, like what it feels like. It's very energetic. I'm like, kind of paying really, you know? And I can feel my own system in the midst of all of my work and busyness. What I need is just to receive That's a very kind of energy, And I'm not worried about the details of like, am I doing the breathing properly? You know, I'm just I'm not I'm, doing it, walking like a lot of say, you know, I think all those you know, perfectionist around I think I'm happy that I, you know, learned some Tibetan and I sort of know the symbols in general. And I think that is allowing me to give a lot of permission to be kind of sloppy now, you know, because it feels so much like it's a for me in, in my circumstance. It's like I need to rest, you know, I need to just touch base with that feeling of heart opening and the kind of giving and receiving that's in the sadhana, um, the sweetness of it, the kind of remembering unconditional love. And that's that's what my system needs, you know, it doesn't need more input. It doesn't need more effort, it And, you know, some days if I and incense in the morning with offering, and then I have to go because I feel like I'm just that, with the with the view. And then I can carry that out can I carry that out to the interacting with my family or Yeah. Devin, you sound like a perfect role model student of Mingyur Rinpoche, right? It really feels like that's us towards, just this simplicity and just trusting and allowing. Yeah, allowing that to show permission, you know, and and and and learning it, I felt like along was so simple. And the languaging is so essential and beautiful that, yeah, I'm grateful that this is our teacher. You know, he sees what we need and there's always just so much support. I feel. And even, you know, sometimes I I be trying harder. And usually his you know, his answer is always like no, you're great. You know, relax. Just trust. So good. Yeah. Can you say a little bit more and your practice and and inspired you not only to I see again on your website, retreats and a lot of teachings. And again, I was thinking, this reminds me a lot of he he he says that, you know, the only thing he's torn between is is balancing teaching and his own practice, you know, because of this bodhicitta that that drives him. Hmm. Well, that's a validating and Yeah. I, um, so I actually met Sonia thousand and eight and, uh, but had heard, you know, he has kind of shiny. And, uh, in twenty ten, uh, there was that special, kind of like monlam there's a prayer festival. And then Rinpoche was, I think, just starting to kind of unfold, um, the Joy of living program and, uh. Yeah, very new. So, uh, Nico and I were lucky We went to Bodhgaya, where we met you, Justin, and a bunch of other folks, um, during that first gathering. And, um, you know, it's fun to like there's shared, um, lineage having practiced at IMS and And then there's a lot of folks know, studying and terror. And I have to say, I had an that visit, and that was, you was like, I got to do a three asking him advice like, should I Should I do it at home? How do I do it? Do we raise money? And he was like, I don't know You know, he's still pretty And like, I'm not sure how to but, um, but even then he's practically like, how are you where is the most comfortable Does it work with your family? You know, it was always just this kind of contextualized, like, let's make sure this is feasible. Um, and from then on, you know, you know, in the sense of, like, person and, and lucky to kind of in his teaching journey. You know, like, from the very into this huge, like, very community with all of these And alongside that, I feel, I sense of gratitude, like he West and what we're up against And I feel him adjusting and speaking to us, you know, in ways that are so revolutionary and innovative. And, um, I also just feel his You know, it's much easier to remember nature of mind when I'm around him. And so, you know, many years of going to his annual retreats in the Midwest and, um, connecting with the sangha and the community there. So, um, it's taken a long time for me, you know, before meeting, Rebecca had other Ngöndro and other teachers I had studied with. But I think understanding long time to really feel like, for my grandmother, you know, Easy. Um, I I'm okay, just as I am. You know, I don't want to be Um, and just a sense of to, like, such a fortunate this lineage that we're in. And so when I think about him, I softening in that sense of, um, You know, for years I would do But with with Rinpoche, I to me as worthy. You know, the languaging in terms of like, my mind inseparable from the guru and all the Buddhas, you know, like the sense of this is enough, I'm enough. He sees that, um, that that's the kind of devotion I really believe is onward leading, you know, believing, seeing his Buddha nature. Of course he's. I believe in his realization. But I also feel like he sees And that's what's so important in healing and and beautiful, uh, for me to remember when I can. So when could you say a little don't have this opportunity to way that you're describing, you I think These are words that we get tripped up over. How do you how do you carry this with the students that you're Yeah. You know, I think in the suttas they say there's different personality types and there are devotional types. I'm very much a devotional type, you know, and I see it. Niko, my partner, is a wisdom type, just, you know, more inspired by wisdom than devotion. Um, I see it in a lot of Westerners, you know, we love learning, we love the ideas, and we love the the sense of the practice more than like the sort of full hearted, like bowing kind of practice that I've always loved. So I really like to give a lot their own way in, you know, and if you're a wisdom type, because our cultural conditioning. And so it takes a long, long I have to say myself, I've been really hurt, you know, by trying to do devotion in a, in a kind of unbalanced way or a way that was like sacrificing my own integrity. Um, so it's just been a long And, you know, I've done all learn devotion, a lot of say, John Makransky and his I think that's a really devotion feels like. Um, so I think it's easy if we can rely on our own wisdom faculty and then maybe see that in Rinpoche, but also see that in the practices and in the teachings. And to go with that, if that's We can use our we have very refined intellect, you know, in the West. And so I think that's is worthy, giving our, our hearts over. Um, so that's how I talk to And then and then if there are devoted, I really like to so well, you know, it's like nature, you know, how do we feel How do we come to a sense of this divine pride? I keep mentioning that that's You know, it's not about needing Yeah, improve perfect ourselves You know, we're learning in our We learn a lot about that, about like grades and, you know, success and failure and what it means to, you know, raise the bar and then meet that goal and all this aspiration and striving. And, you know, I think in the it's an opposite thing. You know, we're dismantling all It's like coming back home to realize we have everything we need already, without all of the book learning and the grades and the external validation, you know. So but that's, that could be a know, big project. And it's pretty good to joke the self improvement project You know, I mean, it's maybe par for the course, like we just will, but more and more we have to learn like that's actually going the opposite direction, you know? I agree wholeheartedly. And, um, I think what I resonate with this is people are includes in dharma communities. Right. Like if you look around like people are depressed, anxious, sense of isolation, sense of disconnection, you know, just and I think it's increasing it seems if you if you look at kind of any metric you can use to demonstrate this, it's increasing. So I want to push a little bit because I think what you're lot of wisdom in it. But it's like I'm thinking of I, I just don't. I can't do that. I don't see the way in. Do you have techniques that people in those in those about that, I think really Yeah, it's such a good question, And it's it's true. You know, I mean, we are up anxiety, depression, isolation, You know, I mean, pick any one And this is really the water So in my teaching, uh, what I tend to emphasize a lot, it's a little bit like Sonia Rinpoche's handshake practice or beautiful monsters practice. It's like befriending, you know, ignoring them, not using know, not repressing, but How do we bring as much befriending as possible. So in the Vipassana tradition, Um, you know, stands for and then nurture. Um, kind of created by Michelle McDonald and then popularized by Tara Brock. But I really think I use that I do it every day for myself. Um, and then with students, I Like, can we recognize what Can we allow it? You know, I mean, recognizing Allowing it is so powerful and in some ways actually feels very tantric, right? Because it's not a it's not a If we're relating to it So in some ways, like reframing our fix it mentality, our judging mentality to be one of kindness, of allowing, of curiosity. That's a big one. And then the other thing that I really emphasize is, is relational practice. So we can do rain on our own. But then partner rain, which is again an innovation from Tara Brock, this sense that we can recognize, allow, investigate and nurture out loud with a practice partner. So there's something very And even I'm feeling it a little as we talk and share, I know There's insight that open, You know, that it's like, oh, me I get that, you know, we've been What are our different answers So there's something I think very warm about doing these in relationship with, you know, people who are also on the path. So I teach partner rain quite a lot in other ways of just checking in how to speak and listen mindfully. And that's a big way I feel like we're bringing our life to our practice is like, you know, nitty gritty. How are we? We're talking all day long. You know, can we actually learn to be mindful in the body, in the heart, and to know what's happening emotionally as we're in conversation and maybe front and center sometimes, you know, being very intentional about how we show up with each other and doing practice out loud that way. Beautiful. Thank you. Um, a big part of my vision for students coming to Togo to a together as community. And, I mean, it's just beautiful resonance that you're sharing. And people are just rubbing up holding each other. And it's just it's so It's so rich. You can't you just have to Tough And it brings out the good, the I mean everybody. It all comes up and it's all Like you're saying, it's anger We just learn how to relate to all of these experiences in a healthy way. Um, can you say a little bit in the spiritual path? When we see people going through what it looks like in your own Oh, wow, I love that question. It's a word that comes up more I think it encapsulates, um, of You know, sila, um, our sense of commitment to precepts and living in alignment with our values. To me, that's foundational and that's, you know, a part of integrity is just being committed to, you know, honesty and kindness and generosity and non-harming. But I also like this word of integral, you know, or One frame is like we're loving You know, we're kind of weaving all of these splintered off parts. Sometimes I frame this like we parts have been ignored or not allowed and repressed. And so the practice when we're know, in a smart way, there can of those parts that feel broken. Um, and, and so one, yeah, one enlightenment is just being whole whole as people. And I think we feel that in, in that because there's so much Um, pretty the same in whatever And that, to me, is also kind of He doesn't perform. He's not different depending on So there's a kind of wholeness Um, and then I like framing my own practice as one of integrity, because it really highlights the ways that I'm not consistent. You know, that I still get stuck in my own people pleasing patterns or codependency or, you know, ambition. There's a lot there to look at. And I think, um, for years and years, I sort of had those separated like a good Yogi, a good practitioner just meant that I did formal meditation every day, and I was like learning the things and moving forward with my numbers, you know, accomplishing ngöndro and then able to do the advanced teachings. But but more and more and this retreat was seeing like, oh, no, You know, this actually means day, my to do list and then know, like, how do I in real mantra, maybe it's a prayer, but or, you know, or getting really moment to moment, which is often So I like the integrity part, and I have to say, for my own path, like I'm weaving a lot of therapy and internal family systems, you know, and like conversations like that, drawing from Western psychology, because, um, in that way, I actually feel like I'm always practicing, you know, I'm always practicing. I'm like looking at these patterns when I'm making work commitments, you know, and when I'm talking to my mentees, like, how is the Dharma showing up there? It's not, um, like the cookie cutter picture I had of what it means to be an embodied dharma teacher. It's like actually a lot of transparency about messiness and being human. And like me too. You know, I'm also working with So there's a lot of that kind of of growing edges still. And then here's the paradox. The other side of that is about it all. You know, like I'm not actually weaknesses that I have. I can see them pretty clearly, but there's a lot of interest in like, okay, let's learn, you know, like the guru of phenomena. That's currently my favorite You know, it's like the world is There's like constant feedback And that to me feels like, okay, then there's always opportunity to to to practice here because I'm here with myself all the time making decisions for better or worse. You know, having to apologize and then moving forward. And, there is a lot of momentum. I think, when we approach I've seen I've seen myself change and shift, but it's interesting because I'm also more human. It's like not getting more perfect, but but definitely like flexibility. Maybe we could say practice I recognition, you know, where the willingness to shift and So here's another teaching frame It's like at first with choice we have. You know, we get really front and center with dukkha, with ungovernability. Like we actually can't control our bodies, our health, our minds, our situation as much as we think we can, we actually can't. We have a lot less control than But practice actually opens up a You know, we're growing that space between stimulus and response, or we're seeing more and more of those habitual reactions and then realizing like, oh, here's the turning point where I actually don't have to say the thing, or I don't have to fall back into the old pattern. So it's both we're seeing also actually gaining more navigating our lives because we We feel the body. We're getting more data moment And to me, that's that's like an You know, certainly formal meditation helps, but a lot of it is just learning throughout the day. Love it, love it. Devin, there's a lot. Yeah, a lot to perhaps dive into I'd love to talk a little bit Nico. Someone that we love and and maybe we can dish on him a little bit. He's not here. We can't wait to have him on the Um. But as I understand, you If I got the title correct. The messy, gorgeous love. Really fun title A Buddhist Talk to us a little bit about how that informed like I assume you're you're pursuing this path of like talking about relationship because it's big for you. And maybe just to parse apart that there's so many of us are in relationship and that's where our biggest poisoned or opportunities arise. So just yeah, tell us some about that and tell us about the book and how you're how you're doing this. Yeah. Great. Well, I'll start with a story. Um, again, I've been referencing this retreat that I, you know, the learning that happened in retreat. But really, there was a big Um, it was in our third year. We had been part time, you know, temple in kind of urban retreat. And then we went up into Cabin And that cabin retreat time was much more kind of pristine and refined. We were in silence. It was very rustic. We were doing the yogas, um, six So a lot of like energy, body going along just fine. Smooth sailing. No problem. I had all this like, wow, we're And then I hit up against some really, um, like, old ancient karmic knots, you could call them. Or early childhood trauma think Rinpoche speaks to this, yogas, you know, Tummo and some bring up some of this, which know, have to be careful about sharing these practices. So I learned firsthand why, you know, they're a little dangerous. You can get out of balance And so I did. So I had there was no story but Never had panic before. But this racing heart and a lot of sort of psychosomatic symptoms started coming up in retreat. And at that point, you know, I Nico was in his own tent. I was in the cabin. We weren't really talking to We weren't seeing each other. And one night in particular, there was kind of had been a culmination. And so I did my protector practice and then went to bed and just couldn't, you know, it was sort of flooded with heart racing. Couldn't sleep, you know, I was like, I don't know if it I know what's happening. So I sort of, you know, worked I know to do. And for a few hours kind of sat And then at a certain point, it felt like it was this turn towards compassion. Like, I could probably handle But my life partner is like, you his tent and I could ask for ask for accompaniment here. And so I did, you know, I was like one in the morning, maybe I went out and woke him up and, um, he came into the cabin with me. And, you know, I described what basically just sat together for feeling that kind of voltage And I really wasn't able to sensitive that sitting to And talked to him. He was great. He's like, yeah, probably, you know, stop meditating for a little while and just eat a lot of protein and make sure you're getting exercise. And he was very caring, you And, um, that was when we really shifted our whole structure towards then relational practice. And so we kind of backed off the session a day of partner rain, every day, you know, he would couple hours of talking. And that in itself was so You know, I learned, oh my gosh, And also this capacity for accompaniment that I could ask for. You know, and that was actually I had this whole vision of. Like the solitary warrior, you helpful at that time. So so we ended up really for the relational practices regularly. And finding them really, um, just essential for our transformation. And, you know, we've been together already for fifteen years. But the stories I heard about know, the kind of unearthing of relationship to the lineage and We had never explored that And so it really felt like a And we were, you know, unique in We were each other's people, you know, we didn't have a whole group. And so it was so lucky that we into that context. And so coming out, you know, we practice under our belts, but we work, you know, in the last two codependency that that created of everything for each other, practice partners, lovers, life lot of pressure on that And so as we've been coming out, kind of aerating, you know, the healthy community, what makes And so adapting all of the communication, the the retreat to then be like, here's This actually feels like a part of the Dharma that hasn't really been fully unpacked in the West yet. And so how do we do this? You know, for people in long term relationships, but also in families and friendships, you know, and all kinds of different constellations. And so the book was born, really has been born over the last few years of that exploration together. It's really been fun and and I I think have benefited. You know, there's a lot of around, like Dharma and how do relationship or our families. And so it just feels like know, discovery to be made. And it's we're still learning in how to, um, how to practice well That's great. Super excited about the book. If you were to pitch it to this book can help you. How would you describe it? Devin. Yeah, I mean, I don't want to it's not coming out till April. Sure. Both be on with you guys, I hope, but, um, yeah, I would say this book offers, like, real time practices for, you know, bringing Dharma concepts like, we talk about the four noble Truths. We talk about holding balance We talk about healthy conflict. So all of these kind of, um, can feel kind of like out of reach. How to really bring them to bear in our most important relationships, you know, because so often it can be kind of siloed, like we do our meditation practice on our own, or we go to sangha and then how do we actually talk about it, even with partners who aren't practicing or, you know, family members? There's all kinds of ways. And it's it's been fun to kind the early Buddhist teachings, relationship and practice. But we just haven't heard those You know, we haven't explored This translation into the West. So it's been a whole discovery to like, talk to people and know, explore together. But really the idea was to bring, um, very traditional dharma concepts, you know, into our everyday lives, our relationships. Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you. I love what you said about how That the Buddha was very much in relationship and the sangha coming together. And it's true. We just don't really hear about We're just busy trying to work kind of forget. Forget that piece or that piece Um, just going back to, you retreat when you went through Um, I'm kind of I'm so impressed in the way that you're able to balance these two, like, really the traditional teachings in a very traditional kind of setting and at the same time really honoring your inner experience and really making it work for you in a way that's that's really resonating and really getting traction with the practice. Um, just thinking of of students as they come out of retreat or, you know, like our students here, we've just finished a very intense three months of study and practice. How do you support people as of a setting like this and go Yeah. You know, it's so important. And I think that's part of why practice that both, both Nico we support people in retreat. And then it feels like you just wilderness of the world. And I think it can be a very You know, there's so much about retreat and maybe in particular about your program where there is a sense of community, there is a lot of shared dharma and practice, and you're living together and you have a kind of routine. And I mean, it's the ideal life Like, that's always what I I lived in Kathmandu for a, um, We joined, um, uh, what is Pulicaris program for Westerners, right. So Kemper Rinpoche is kind of We did that for a bit, and it all over the world and sharing getting to go deep with study. So I think there can be There can be a real sense of um, uh, la, you know, grief and and then going back to a world I remember coming back from Asia and just being like, where is everybody? You know, nobody's out on the streets here in my hometown of Ashland. Like, people walk, but it's not Kathmandu, you know? Um, so I think adjusting, you adjustment and having a lot of So, you know, in our mentoring, I talk to people regularly who are coming out of retreat to support their momentum, but also to feel like they're not alone in that. And and all these ways, you to home life. That all feels really important share and integrate and look at and to feel a sense of of like falling off the cliff, people are going back to worlds you know, like families or work It's a totally different world. So there's all these ways that I stealth, Dharma, you know, about it, but actually, there's being a Buddha is better than You know, like, can we embody those qualities rather than just giving lectures, you know, about the, the two two truths or whatever it is we've been learning. So, um, I think like that, like really being able to value what we've internalized and both like having a sense of community, maybe mentoring or, you know, Kalyana mitta, like friendship, spiritual friends. Um, but also knowing we have it And so we can kind of remember that and tap into that resource, um, even if we're not in the monastery anymore. That's that's powerful to hear. I remember, um, spending time at in the movement of retreat in a local gal. And she said the locals there had a code for describing yogis, meditators, and it was vegetables. And they would kind of there was would say like, oh, yeah, I saw were like an eggplant, like kind And I think you're right. It's like we do a disservice if because it is so stark. And you can I think it'd be really jarring, um, as you're saying. Um, yeah. So a lot of work to do there. Go ahead. I'll just jump in with a because actually, I just retreat at IMS. So just same in that period. Now we're like the week after, Um, and so as the Yogi is, some three months, some for six weeks There's, you know, these and often there's some so open and vulnerable, we got put back your armor and, and like, but we want to be open in actually have this sense of having to, like, suit up, you And the metaphor I've been using that I love and I think this is I think about childhood, you know, it's like, what if we're, you know, delicate, open, vulnerable, like a high mountain flower, you know, I mean, some of those alpine flowers, They're so beautiful because they're delicate. But look at their their You know, they survive wind and and rain and snow. You know, like they're built for And that's I think what practice does hopefully for us is like, can it get us in touch with our tenderness, our openness, our vulnerability. There's beauty in that, but also the middle of it. You know, like there's a strength and fortitude for all of the weather patterns out there. But it doesn't mean we have to experienced in practice. You know, I love that. What a beautiful image, Devin. It just reminded me of, um, when was in, uh, in India. And I remember coming out of it maybe a retreat of a two seater. Um, and I remember we'd, we'd the square, I don't know. Do you know Dharamsala quite So do the bus stand. And I remember our teacher saying, like, you know, not a good idea. You're just sort of standing in uh, these touts, who can see walking duck, you know, they well, tap into this one. They're just radiating love and They'll they'll open their Well, Darren, thank you so much It just feels so, so rich. You you really embody a strong And I'm just really taken, by bring these traditional teachings, but really live it in so supportive of people, um, Uh, yeah. Beautiful. Thank you so, so much. Well, I'm very touched. Thank you for your kindness and both are doing. You know, I'm a beneficiary of all of the the work and the teaching and the support of this community. So I'm incredibly inspired by all are doing there. And I just yeah, have deep gratitude for for all the service and the deep practice commitment that I feel, you know, so look forward to being with you in person maybe one of these years and, uh, yeah, sharing Dharma in new ways and do hope to be back with Nico maybe when this book comes out and, uh, yeah, just sending a lot of love, care and care for your students and your participants. Like, may everybody be. Well, you know, we're just we're So that's great. Devin. Yeah, we'll definitely have you It feels like we just scratched Um, which is often the case in But, uh, just echoing what Thank you so much. It's lovely to have you. Um, can't wait to, uh, continue Yeah. Same. Same. Sounds good. Stay healthy. You too. Yeah. Good to be with you. Yeah. Ben. Thank you. Okay. Be well. Thanks for listening to this If you enjoyed this episode, we'd be grateful if you left a review, subscribe to the channel or share it with somebody that you love. As a five hundred one C3, the Tergar Institute relies on your generosity to continue offering transformational programs rooted in Vajrayana Buddhism to support our work and explore our course offerings. Visit us at our Institute org. Until next time, may your May your heart be open, and may