Welcome to Living Dharma, a podcast from the Turga Institute. I'm Sumakkun Zangamo, here with my co-host Justin Kelly, as we explore what it means to bring Buddhist wisdom into everyday life. Each episode features conversations with practitioners, teachers, and change makers who are living the path in real, grounded, and inspiring ways. We're so glad you're here.
SPEAKER_07Welcome back, everybody, for another episode of Living Dharma. Today we're joined by two people whose lives together have become something of a living co-op. Bill and Susan Morgan. Separately, each brought something essential to the work. Bill, a psychologist and longtime meditator, whose path began in the early 70s with Eastern philosophy at Tufts University, a year in a Trappist Monastery, time at a Zen Center and in Tibetan communities, and eventually a deep home in Bapassama. Susan, a psychiatric clinical nurse specialist whose compassionate instincts were lit early, by the suffering she saw on television as a four-year-old, by the loss of her mother at 21, by a restless desire to understand the mind from the inside out. Together they became something more than the sum of their parts. For over 30 years, they have taught, led retreats, written and practiced, often side by side. They are faculty at the Institute for Meditation and Psychotherapy, contributing authors to mindfulness and psychotherapy, and among the most respected voices at the intersection of Buddhist practice and psychological healing. In 2009, they did something that still stops people in their tracks. They walked into the forest refuge at the Insight Meditation Society and didn't come back for four years. In this conversation, we range widely. We talk about what happens when Buddhism and psychotherapy genuinely meet. Not as techniques borrowed from one another, but as two ways of knowing the human heart. We talk about long-term practice, about partnership, about what it means to share a path with someone you love. And we spend real time with something that might seem small, but isn't. The way a single gesture of kindness offered in the right moment can change everything. We're so glad they're here. So without further ado, our conversation.
SPEAKER_02Truly. And to do this together.
SPEAKER_07Wonderful. Wonderful. I couldn't agree more. Um so I think we'll dive right in to some questions and see where the conversation takes us. Kun Sangwa, do you want to start with the first question?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, sure. Thank you. Um so our first question, we really always begin by asking this. Um,
what does applying the Dharma in everyday life mean to you? Um, and particularly, you know, as clinicians, as long-term practitioners, uh, you've each lived this integration for decades. Uh, we're curious, you know, how do you now articulate that? No separation.
SPEAKER_02No separation between on retreat and off retreat. It's all retreat. Just a different venue. And then it's we're playing uh with uh with uh with continuity, with how to keep mindfulness going. So that that'd be my opening statement.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I would say that's that's the main thing. We do more, we f we we find that this uh the integration in daily life is not the strongest suit in the vipassana in the way Vipassana has come over to the West. Uh and uh we we try to uh we try to address it more, I would say. Uh uh rather than just uh, okay, and when you leave retreat, just try to be mindful most of the time isn't exactly a large commitment to to doesn't indicate a large commitment to really to the integration in in life. And so uh we try to address that in a number of ways in the in the sangras that we create and and and then when in the ways we invite people to to really light it up, what we call lighting it up in daily life, you know. We have uh one of the metaphors we use is the um the tinkerbell metaphor, you know, and turning the casual, because so often we find ourselves in casual attention, and how can we light it up? How can we light up the moment here and there, boom, boom, boom, you know? And so we do it, we do a lot in that space, quite a lot in that space. Um, I think one of the main ones, one of just a simple practice that we is very much a part of our spiritual practice, is turning every, I think it was at the top of the list, every um transaction with other people, every time we into a connection, into creating a moment where that person feels seen rather than seen just for the interactive piece, you know? And it's a way of lighting that person up a little bit and lighting our set our own hearts up a little bit. So with every interaction, wherever it is, and we we both we we we both adhere to that. Yeah. And try to get our students to to practice that as well. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And and you know, the you start to see that there's there's certain things that we do wherever we are, whether we're on retreat or off retreat, you're just certain things that we do called activities of daily living, which right. And so those are like what are the natural bridges for bringing practice into life? Like, right? What are those easy transitions? And and I also think that that that transition, you know, the I love the simplicity of the Buddha saying, you know, there are four postures that we want to learn how to practice in, sitting, standing, lying down, and walking, and those four get you through the day. Right? And then learn helping people to start to notice this and start to play with play with um these moments of coming back, coming back into their practice, having been wandered away, but like beginning to string those little moments together throughout the day.
SPEAKER_06No, you like the expression, you know, there are there are no ordinary moments. Why do we continue to create them, to co-create them to be ordinary? It's just a habit pattern. Creating thing uh life to be ordinary is just a habit pattern. It can be changed. It can be changed. Uh and it can be changed in life, not just on retreat, in life itself. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. Yeah, I want to I want to hear more about the lighting up piece.
But before we do that, I want to. This is kind of there's a there's a kind of stark juxtaposition that I wonder if you resonate with. You know, and I only met Sayada Ubandita one time, the wonderful, glorious teacher. And um for about 15 minutes, he basically just told me, I'm on fire, right? And he recited the the burning sutra and saying, like, your sense doors are on fire and you gotta get out of this place. Like, this is horrid. He did not hold back, and he was advocating for like this hyper intensive form of mindfulness, and it really struck me. And I think a lot of the early teachers, from what I was exposed to, there was this like seriousness. So to hear you from the first moment, Susan mentioned playfulness and dil, like this idea of like, so what do we do with that tension? What have you done? How has it evolved in your practice?
SPEAKER_06Well, I mean, I think part of it is, you know, we we and we and we we we we drank the Kool-Aid of that particular form of practice for a long time and kind of hit the wall with it and realized, you know, it's important, but it's it it lacks a certain relevance in today's world as well. You know, it lacks a certain and and it it it it we finally had to give ourselves permission to practice out of the box, uh, you know, and uh and l lighten up and brighten up our own practice. And um, because we weren't getting a uh sufficient instructions in that in that space. I mean, I did a 90-day retreat with Upan Dida. It was his first retreat, it was a teacher's retreat in 1984 to which I was invited. There were 15 of us, and I got to meet him 90 straight days. And this was his first retreat over there, and every day you're on fire, you're burning, you're in hell, you've got to get, you know, you've got to get through this. And it almost broke me, you know. Um uh and uh so uh I have seen some value in it in terms of the cultivation of some kind of samadhi, of a samadhi. We need that, but also it led to a brittleness and a rigidness and a harshness and a striving and uh you know a a reinf without no without any emphasis on inner compassion at all, you know. Yeah, yeah. So, but it was a process, just this is where we are now. Exactly. It's not where we were years ago. This has been part of our own evolution, you know, kind of uh moving forward, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, like when when I came into the scene, you know, it was still there was not a there were it was not a lot of attention on on the heart and not a lot of attention on the body. And um and so honestly, I uh was less and less aware of my body, which uh and and my body, you know, I hurt my body from practicing in that way. And so one of the things that we had to do is both of us kind of come to the awareness that we needed to add more heart because, like, you know, this body is hurting me. This I I've lived with pain my whole life. So I really need to attend to it. I can't just pretend it's not there and just focus on the mind or focus on the breath. This needs to be attended to. And um so the the awareness of bringing the heart in and bringing the body in and really so that it truly becomes an embodied posture of mindfulness. Mindfulness is an embodied practice.
We use these, this, this flesh, blood, and bones to arrive, you know, to to keep developing. So, you know, body, breath, heart, mind have to come along for the ride. And that's been like that's how we came to the holding environment, FYI. Like that's how it, like, like this, suddenly the awareness of from our training is, you know, and you can talk about that, you know, where it comes from. But but it it we we developed the holding environment because it was something that we needed.
SPEAKER_06No, yeah, there's a there's very much a set of, you know, look, this is an outward-facing culture, right? It's not an inward-facing culture. And uh, we don't know how to meditate over here, and we don't have a lot of faith in it, not inherently, not deeply, you know. And so um for most people, restlessness and agitation and mind only and trying to figure it out, trying to get it right, trying to get it right. It's so much the orientation. And what we love, and in in, I'll just say a moment about this, the holding environment. It comes from a uh a child psychiatrist in the last century who said, listen, he changed psychotherapy. He said, Listen, psychotherapy, we got this all wrong. You know, it's way too cognitive, it's way too analytical. And we need to be doing psychotherapy as if, like a good mother uh is with her with her with her child, he says, he's not just observed, she's not just observing the child, she's feeling the child. She's leaning, she's leaning in in a way that creates a trusting inner holding environment. Okay. And it occurred to us that's what's missing in meditation, at least in the in the vipassana sense. We need to learn how to cultivate an inner holding environment rather than just trying to figure out our inner space or how to how to move the pieces around in our inner space, you know? And so we bring that in right away. How do we get how do we get that in in here? How do we get the heart in immediately? Immediately. Uh it's not just the breath is following the sensations of the breath. It's the breath, it's the breath of life. It's like, oh, it's still moving in us. Let's start right there. Let's get the heart in immediately, you know. And uh so uh yeah.
SPEAKER_02So it's an embodied, an embodied uh posture, an embodied heartful posture. We we just taught a retreat last um this past year, um uh the embodied heart, because it's really that's what it is. I mean, it's a heart training. And that's one of the things that I love about the about the Thai forest tradition is that that has been, especially I think, you know, as as generations move forward, there's more heart in bringing being brought forward. And I think some of the monastic teachers, Ajahn Suchita being being truly my heart teacher, you know, who really uh brings the body and brings the heart in and in ways that are very accessible. You know, I it it's it's so deeply important that that we own our practice and that we develop our practice, grow the teacher within and figure out what the practice needs and how to hold the the truth of what's ever happening inside kindly and lovingly and and doing it in a learning how to pace ourselves. Like these are the kinds of skills that are so deeply important. If people are going to practice on their own, which most of people do, they don't have a a teacher who knows them well, really. Many don't, and many dabble in all kinds of right traditions. But who really knows their practice and how what what this tradition is bringing forward and what this tradition is bringing forward, and when they blend it together, this is what's happening. Right? Like, yeah. It was a learning how to do that. And these these kinds of skills to me are like the survival skills, really, but they're also uh, you know, wise, skillful means in this world.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, we make a big deal between the difference between observing our experience and holding our experience and holding feeling into it and holding it. And so the holding environment, first of all, in and of itself, we want to strengthen that. And then holding environments are meant to hold. So then we can turn toward the difficult. The main problem in in Western Dharma is people want to open up the field of awareness right away because it it we can think there, more thinking, you know, more organizing with thought, you know. But a holding environment, it's like we and and before we've settled a little bit and calmed a little bit and created a holding environment, we're not really holding anything. We're just observing it, you know. So gradually, as we create a holding environment, we can move out to the difficult. We can turn, even turn toward the difficult like this, rather than, oh yeah, I know you're there, I know you're there. I'm observing, I'm labeling you, I'm labeling you. That's labeling is not healing. Holding is healing, you know, in psychotherapy and in meditation, we feel holding. So we're big on that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So there's also if you if we think about like a holding environment, a holding environment holds, and the the then there's the experience of being held. And that again brings us down into the body, into that felt experience. And you know, I think again, this is the place that's like, you know, the final frontier for many people in the West is really coming down into the body and really getting more deeply acquainted with with the felt experience and feeling the refinement of that and learning how to hold what is really present, because that's where the holding happens. It's viscerally, it's somatically, it's right, it's it's it's in there, it's in the you know, the the energetics of the body.
Yeah. I I want to highlight one piece of what you're saying because I think it's quite um, it's kind of been a theme in all the podcasts we've been recording. It's this tension between the kind of historical and the contemporary and what you in this this this process of adaptation.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_07Because in in one sense, um, especially if you look at like the the Vajrayana tradition, there is like deep devotion, obviously, to the ancestral lineage and and really embodying that. Yet there's this brilliant like history of profound adaptation, much in the way that you're describing. So I just want to highlight that and maybe maybe we come back to it, but um brilliant to hear about that tension and how it's arisen in you.
SPEAKER_06I think we're we're just finally, some of us are having, you know, finally, I we I totally respect how the teachers who first brought this over also wanted to have that honoring, honoring where it's come from and making sure it's honored and brought over in its in its original form. But Buddhism has always been flexible as it's moved from culture to culture. And now we're at a time 50, 60, 70 years later, where okay, what parts of this are really relevant? How do we continue to honor that the deep parts of it and make it more accessible to this culture and this time? Yeah, absolutely, Justin. We're all we're all about that.
SPEAKER_02And and there's one little one little piece here. We we may or may not go into it, but but you know, it's also so important that we um that we bring things forward in our culture that have not been brought forward, like like the self and our psychological messiness and what comes with us on the cushion and how to relate to that and how to relate to that will. There really hasn't been a lot of language around that. Um, and so how does one really then be able to um uh honestly let go of selfing without spiritual bypass if we if we haven't addressed that? Because those roots are still there, right? So to me, there is something about really, no, we have to digest the whole thing. Everything's got to be digested here in order for the beauty to keep revealing itself.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I mean, we know a lot of people, you know, including myself, came to the Dharma thinking this will help me get rid of the parts of myself that I don't like. A lot of people secretly or or or right out front will will know to say that. Uh you know, you know, the research that I did in college was interviewing people about meditation. And they said, no, yeah, I want to get rid of the parts of myself I don't like. I interviewed a lot of people. And of course, that's not uh that's not the way. That's not the way.
SPEAKER_01Bill, I mean, just to to lead on and to to go a little bit more into what you were just sharing about this um uh tension between the historical and the contemporary, you were really exposed to Buddhism during what we might call the first wave of of Buddhism as it transitioned into the US. You know, looking back, how do you understand that moment um and how has it shaped your trajectory as a as a practitioner and as a psychologist?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, well, we'll both have something to say about that. For me, um it was, first of all, it was great to to to practice, and I did practice, you know, in all the traditions. I lived in the Boston Dharma Datu for a year as well in 1975. I met Chungpa. I saw what was going on there. And I had to run away from that at a certain point, but I you know, I was in that isn't in that for a year, and I did some serious Zen practice as and then and then moved in, and then moved into Vipassana, you know, and did the three-month course in 78 and 81 and so forth, and did a lot of Mahasi practice, a lot of, you know, a lot of hard, what I would call hard ass practice. You know, I pushed really hard. And for myself, I realized that um, and it was a painful realization that took many years for me to see that the that the Dharma and meditation was not healing or addressing everything, as Susan is mentioning. You know, we we've got to incorporate it all. And that's where also I had to get back, I had to get into some psychotherapy. I realized some of the early wounds were not being addressed, uh, you know, and some of them needed to be addressed there. And then as I became a psychologist, I thought, well, this is part of, this is going to be part of um, and then I started to lighten up. And I started to really get in touch with inner compassion and the importance of that and the importance of lightening up, which is part of what we think of enlightenment is lightening up. up, you know, and and the integration more of um when we work with people, of course, we're both psychologically trained and you know so we know uh what's what when we work with people and when we can encourage them to go deeper in practice and when we say you know I I know you want to go deeper in practice but you got this blocker just tell me a little bit about your mother we know when to do that with people we know we had to do it ourselves you know we had to turn a corner here we had to kind of go and you know you you had to make some changes too you weren't getting a lot of support for integration the your the the body as well and you had to do some of your own exploration and there's some things that we didn't even bring to our teachers to be honest. We just learned you learned not to you know it wasn't really it wasn't really supported and that's the other thing that we want to do in the songas that we create is have people lots of permission to talk about their own messiness and their mo their own struggles not just about what's going well you know and so we also will talk about our own struggles and uh you know and get get off get off what we call the high
seat and uh you know get get in get in there. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02I I think I I don't know I came I came to the Vipassana in the 90s I think what I what I noticed is uh there is this evolution that's happening and we are mid step in in history we're we're making history as we go along here and as Bill's saying I mean the first the first wave of teachers I think truly honored the teachers of the East and they understood that they understood the level of respect and the transmission piece and they took that very seriously. I really felt that and I got that that sensibility from from our teachers but I I I I think what's happened is that what we've no what what has happened for our teaching is what has been missed, what we missed in our own development we try to offer we try to and we think that's just part of again the evolution of the teachings it's not doing something different. It's adding more words and more language to the places that that kind of need attention because not all places in the world think of a self as separate the way we do. Right? And that has to be accounted for like truly accounted for um and and I'll say even for us when we first began teaching like most our niche has been for many years just psychotherapists and and uh and really helping them to deepen their practice their own personal practice to be able to hold space right and and it's been in recent years that we've again opened up again but the the the the one of the things that I also am bringing forward that has not been so traditional in the Vipassana teachings by Western teachers mostly by monastics but is the honoring of the lineage. The honoring of their teachers and uh the really making space for that and actually bringing in the you know the field of benefactors into the room. And and maybe we we might we might say you know there's all there's all kinds of influence from that but but I find it to be you know deeply supportive and so you know you use bits and pieces but I'm very clear where they come from very clear that I you know the the beings that I have sitting with me when I practice and and sensing into that field of goodwill. You know? And I feel like that's something that again has been shaved off because it's just seems too religious or something. But to me it's about it's about belonging and and feeling the and feeling the the potency of what's coming through from all of those teachers and beings and the who's ever educated our hearts.
SPEAKER_06No there are just there do some things that we're just not gonna transmit like your hair is on fire.
SPEAKER_07And it because this is this is this is that cultural tendency to strive you know to push harder to get it right to get you know that we bring in there too you know um maybe not the yeah so we we we address that you know and we have to address restlessness because it's it's the major uh hindrance restlessness restlessness and self-doubt so inner compassion you know big big big big big need yeah yeah yeah it's interesting to hear you what you just articulated Dylan Susan because in a lot of ways and you know we've shared some about this but what the institute's interested in doing is kind of helping people do that adaptive process like you've just articulated maybe not in psychotherapy maybe in education or leadership or another field um so it's it's it's really great to hear you articulate kind of a little bit of like the autobiographical path you've been on and I think our our listeners will really will really benefit from it. I'm wondering even to then to like to s to pan out a little bit um do you find um this kind of inclusion of what we might deem more kind of psychotherapeutic approaches and subject matter Bill you mentioned you know bringing pausing with a student saying oh tell me about your relationship with your mother which might be understood as a more kind of psychotherapeutic approach do you see it as a tendency in the Dharma? And if you do, and is that growing in momentum and how it's impacting things more broadly as you kind of observe Dharma in North America or dharma in the 20th century, however you want to categorize it.
SPEAKER_06Yeah I mean I think what our thing is this, you know, you know of course we work with a lot of psychotherapists as well but we're also interested in bringing teaching them more of dharma you know and uh and how to go deeper. And I think one of the places that the practices uh have have have only this the at least in the Vipassana world the the surface has only been scratched uh there are all these mindfulness techniques you know but with the with a deeper uh uh deep after deepening a bit more of a holding capacity it's more like this we'll invite people to turn toward the thing that they're not as likely to want to turn toward to turn toward the difficult but in a caring way you know now I was never instructed to do that I was instructed to label it but not no more than label it you know and I think with mindfulness uh at a deeper at a in a in I think it's a deeper healing there's a healing dimension to mindfulness that I think um requires us to be willing to understand why we're doing it but to be willing to turn toward the difficulty with with our practice not to psychologize about it but to turn toward it to to hold it you know and what some people for example even psychotherapists are finding because it's a lot of people will say well I've already done my family of origin work and they'll find out that there's more there that psychotherapy itself also by itself didn't get to because you can understand your story a little bit more and feel into it a little bit but with mindfulness you can feel into it more how about going in there and staying there in a holding way in a caring way like being a good mother, a good parent to yourself, you know, to be able to really turn toward uh turning toward the difficult in a really heartfelt way is one of the main contributions I think.
SPEAKER_02Yeah one one thing I want to say is uh and and may you can correct me if I'm wrong but um when Bill said tell me about your mother that would not it would not be that that question right but but but just like say say more about how what what it feels like inside okay just to clarify that because it's a because that's a that is a very that is a very psychological angle. And I I actually think the you know where where it's at is actually to like from from from my perspective for me is to be able to use the dharma like somebody may may present a psychological question to us actually at the Daily Sit. And and I'm interested in I I will answer dharmically like it is about reframing it from a dharmic lens. It all can be reframed from a dharmic lens everything can be reframed. And the other and the other piece is that I would say it's not just the psychological it is relational. It is the relational dimension relational in here relational between beings and people and really relational back into the natural world because the more modern we become the more we lose sight of where we came from and the Dharma is asking us to remember our nature sickness old age and death for example you know like it's asking us to remember that and to remember that no no no it's all that this is what welcome to this world and let's figure out how to relate well to that I feel like you know it's it's it's all important. The psychological piece is important because that's the um that's the internal environment that's getting that needs attention. But the external this environment needs attention internal external internal and external you know yeah I think those are th those are probably the two three of the biggest areas that we think um and I don't know to to what extent other teachers are in incorporating more of that but for for us relational dharma and um uh well see I I want to rephrase that I want to rephrase that yeah to phrase it no because I think the dharma is relational the practice is relational it's actually just waking people up to the relationality of it that's relating waking it up to the to the heart aspect of the practice the relational aspect and that everything is interconnected so how we relate to it all that ultimately matters but breaking it down so people don't get overwhelmed is the ticket yeah
I I think and I want to go back to this just for for a couple minutes because I think I I understand where you're coming at Susan particular that idea of it is intrinsically relational.
SPEAKER_07We are relational beings we have been through evolution and I want to go back to light lighting it up I think was the phrase you used and just to highlight in our first episode that we recorded with Joseph I think you'll like it um he mentioned lightening up as you also mentioned meaning like the process of enlightenment is just lightening up like not taking it so serious. Right? But on the the juxtaposition of like honoring and what you were describing through lighting it up could you talk a little bit about more of what that practice is and the the shift you've seen in people in in in practicing it and directing it towards others because it sounds quite profound.
SPEAKER_06Yeah this is I know this is not even in a teaching this isn't like this is as we're moving through the world with people who may not be into the dharma at all this right but uh one of our core beliefs I I don't I think it's the core reality is that we all want to be seen we are we're pack animals we have mirror neurons we're social you know we want to be seen so whether it appears that people want to be seen or not we have different strategies and defenses around that the core is that we all want to be seen and we all want to be held actually we all want to belong as Susan was mentioning right and so we we we we will approach it doesn't matter we could be in the checkout line of stop and shock and we will find a way to get somebody out of their to connect with them whether it's just something as simple as oh your nails are amazing. Super cool you put a lot into that can we get a closer look at that just stop just stop for a moment I want to see those nails for a second and you just see this person is feel is is feeling seen. Well always thank somebody for their kindness not just for the transaction but for their kindness thank you for the good energy thank you for your kindness you know and I came out of an eye appointment one time and then I I've got a lot of eye karma going on it's like a 70 year old woman with a really with a really uh a really cool uh necklace on and she said you want to make another appointment I said oh yeah but you know I'm not so blind right now that I can't appreciate that incredible necklace you're wearing right there boom 15 seconds this might be our 20 seconds in this lifetime but bing you know like that you know it's like it's more like with skillful means what is the way to uh interface with this being contextually just for a moment just for a moment just in passing in passing so we do a lot of that we do a lot of that and then in our own practice and in our own teaching it's like it's just all a friggin' miracle which that's what we're forgetting all the time how can we remember that more of the time not just it with special sunsets or yeah somehow we need dramatic stuff to pull us out of our ordinariness and what can we what can we do to like uh you know sponsor in it throughout throughout the day that are uh just like oh right right right uplift so we often when we wake up in the morning when we wake up in the morning we'll high five each other we hey we just woke up like it's a good day so far Charlie You're still breathing I'm still breathing everything's moving we can still all it's all going on and then we look over at the cats and the cats are also
like so we begin a day literally and we heal that and we teach people to do that.
SPEAKER_02We teach that at the morning and then I I do this thing like every night like I you know it's just you gotta do the whole thing I think okay so it only takes one minute it's to the gratitude practice. Okay late at night this is where I tell is I tell the story. Okay so when I when Bill and I were first dating um like I am a worrier or I used to be a worrier. That's one of the things that's fallen away from practice in practice but I would go I would get into bed and I would like I'd have a a a pad next to my bed and I'd be rattling off to Bill all the things that I didn't get done that didn't go well that was really upsetting. And here I am and then and then we're trying to then we're trying to all right then we're trying to go to sleep and it involved it was insane and he said all right let's do something like let's try something as here's our first game let's try something I said okay he said let's let's um it let let's play it Quaker style we can only say something if it's if we're if we're great if we're for gratitude that we're grateful for only gratitude nothing else and after 10 o'clock after wait what right but but I for like the first two weeks I was kind of stomped like no joke.
SPEAKER_03I'm like yeah nice flowers walking by you know I see them yeah yeah like but I'm not I'm I'm just trying to like figure out well what do I need to say let me finish but let me say the actual thing I will I'll get to I will get to that they have to know this story though.
SPEAKER_02So um I I I finally like at the end of two weeks and Bill had said he said it's okay to kind of say the sky you know you like the the the the weather the the flowers whatever it's all right and I started to say it and I started to kind of mean it and I started to be able to slowly interrupt the habit of the worry and the and we still do it to this day. Like this is just like so we go to so we go to bed with gratitude. So here's what I do with all my peeps like on a retreat. Every night of the retreat every night of the retreat because I tell them listen I only have you for a limited amount of time I want to try to instill certain things with you and this is one of them gratitude practices good food for the heart it's it's the the thing that we really need. So um uh when you get back to your to your room undress yourself as if you're undressing someone you love a little one or an elder who's been sick or needs a little extra loving. Go slow. Slow enough that you can feel the movement of the cloth across the skin. Brief wash your teeth, wash your face and when you slip under the covers turn the heart mind only toward thoughts of appreciation and gratitude. Yeah yeah the other thoughts will be there just keep turning the heart mind toward thoughts of appreciation and gratitude as you slip off into sleep. When you wake up in the morning should you be so fortunate as to wake up notice that you've woken up notice that the body is breathing and is moving. Notice that the heart is pumping and it's able to feel and you can hear and see and whatever sense doors are available to you. Appreciate at night now Susan I just I just love that so much and I can just imagine everybody who's hearing this lighting up really really lighting up yeah in the morning how many people how many people remembered or how many people remember to do to go to tuck themselves in how many people remember to that they noticed that they woke up this morning we're gonna check again tomorrow. Right?
SPEAKER_01Because then we need the small waking up to have the big waking up how different that hard ass approach that you described earlier Bill. I mean it's just it's talk and cheese
it it really is talk and cheese. I mean could I ask were that were there any benefits from that that hard ass approach that really applying yourself with diligence? I think so many people can really resonate with that.
SPEAKER_06Yeah I mean a part of it was just uh doing it for long enough and hard enough that I could see the the limit of it because I really did it I really did it hard you know I I really did it hard and um uh it did um strengthen to some extent you know to quite a bit extent my my uh some samadhi practice my ability to concentrate uh then I had to introduce a softening with that concentration you know a softening uh yeah I I got good at staying but not calming with the staying you know not the soft stay it was hard it was hard edged staying but I did learn to be more um you know you know uh that that did develop that did develop some and then I had to bring in the the heart and eventually the body thanks to Susan to to surround that you know to so to soften soften we use the word softening softening a lot softening welcoming you know um yeah but it did develop some samadhi yeah but and and now this approach of as you're sharing the softening the heart aspect um do you feel like people still need some emphasis on the samadhi you know to really be able to stay with their experience how do you how do you bring language to that so is that important I mean I mean that's part of that's part of it we we we we we we we try to bring those together we we we try to bring um well interest interest right interest is one of the is the mother of concentration and it's like so we should be practicing interest not more concentration it's more interest you know it's in how do we get more interested how do we get more interested in stuff that we're not is it so interested in we're asking a cognitively oriented beings to become interested in stuff that's less cognitive and to do it in a more in a less cognitive manner and it's just it's a foreign territory.
SPEAKER_02It's like how so we use a lot of imagery we use a lot of you know we use a lot of um we a lot of imagery yeah we absolutely use a lot of imagery uh and uh uh and also like uh playing there's an awareness of how speedy the mind is and that the mind often it needs to kind of we need to pat the brakes and slow the mind down and one of the things that has you know for for me has been particularly helpful has been Kanaka Samadhi and really uh playing with that and actually how many objects are needed to stay present. That's my game. How many, how many objects? And then slowly as this as the sit develops and as practice develops, you need less and less objects. But but for me, what it it it did is that I I couldn't follow my breath really to save my life when I was early in practice. Um, but I I started to notice that there's so much happening in here that I could begin to track that. And as I began to track that, then I started to notice, oh, I guess like, you know, I started out with four objects. I needed four. Four was my sweet spot. Five felt a little busy often, you know. So I just kind of you start to notice that and like, oh, and then you slowly tick down to right. And then but then by then you've sort of learned how to how to get interested in the refinement piece because as things slow down in the body, it gets more subtle. So like there are ways of playing with it. And again, we come back to play. A lot of you know, we do a lot of play. We we give them a lot of little interesting practices to work with, to train attention to stay.
SPEAKER_06As if it were a game, as if it were a puzzle, as if you were a kid noodling around in there, you know, you know, as opposed to how do we get it right? You know, it's like bringing that stuff that we like, we like to play, you know, even animal, a lot of animals play, right? Yeah, and with samadhi, you know, samadhi is both staying and calming. And we think in the West, we need to put more emphasis on the calming, because if the calming is there, here's the truth's the secret. It feels good. And you want to stay. And you know what? For in order for it to take root a little bit more, we've got enough good medicine all over the enough shoulds. It's got to feel good. And if it feels good, oh, oh, this isn't a bad place to hang out suddenly in the present moment. If there's not a lot of spiky edges and a lot of striving there. And then the samadhi can start to come in there because the mind wants to snow around. Wants to turn toward. You know, the thing that it at first was just thought I I'm supposed to, I know I'm supposed to go back to the breath. Ah, how about yeah. So we we spent a lot of time on that. A lot of time on that, and get creative with that and ask people to get creative themselves with that. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02Exactly.
SPEAKER_06Find your own way in there. There's nobody else in there but you. How are you gonna be creative with this? How what's gonna hold your interest? What holds your interest? Is it sound? Is it image? How how how can you get more interest fit? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And there's, you know, uh this again is gonna come back to the heart, like the attitude, like uh for me, Kwanyin is you know, I have certain beings that I kind of use to help me feel into that quality of kind holding, caring attention. And so yeah, yeah, here she is, right here. She, this is my this is my girl who traveled with traveling girl. And I and I know, you know, genderless being that that she is, but this is this was a gift, and I I so love it. But but um, but it's also the recognition that to train attention to stay, we have to appreciate that of course the mind is going to wander. Um, and so how we bring our mind back matters greatly. So um it's that idea of you know, that you playing the game of noticing when the mind wanders away and putting a big mindfulness star right there. Good job. Now take a breath and come on back in, unwind from that tension and begin again, right? And so we begin to keep playing, but from that that loving way. It's not striving. It's like, but notice when you've wandered away, come on back, and it's over here where it's cooler, where where we can cool everything out together. And right, that and that loving attitude is to me also the other, you know, the other thing that's needed, the other ingredient is the the the attitude of warmth and care and you know, it feels good over here and the interest piece. It's not one or the other, it's that heart-mind blend.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, and we and we also blend and bring up some some bhavana of cultivation of of of these core heart qualities. Yes, the Brahmabaharas, but also gratitude, gratitude, appreciation, wonder, a sense of wonder, playfulness, those qualities we really try to invite right away in into this, into this process, yeah. Right away. Right away. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, even just people getting the miracle of breathing, like getting that the breath is moving, like you're not doing it, like it's just happening on its own, and one day it won't, but it is right now. Like that, like getting that, and then like it gives them, lets them open up into the trueness of that. It's not fabricated, it's real.
SPEAKER_07I love it. And the nuance that you're talking with right now is really evidence to who you two
are. And I and I I think that our listeners, and I and I oftentimes just want to put myself in their shoes because they're they're likely listening to this and gaining a lot of inspiration. And there might be, I don't know, there can be self-doubt, like, oh gosh, like it's not that nuanced for me. So I wanna I want to spend a couple minutes talking about your personal practice, if that's okay. Because I I've found it deeply inspiring over the years how much time you've dedicated to retreat practice, for example. As I remember, I think it's four years consecutively at the Forest Refuge, that beautiful place in Barrie, and then months and months and and likely years outside of that. So I I I it'd be great to just kind of talk about the role of that formal practice and and how it really likely, I imagine, shifted how you understand the mind and experience.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, thank you, Justin. Yeah, we we have we have done a lot of it. I mean, I I'm up over 10 years of retreat practice at this point, and Susan's about seven or so, or eight, and and she only started in the early early 90s. So, and we still do two to we try to do close to three months of retreat still a year at the Forest Refuge. We do at least two, never less fewer than two months a year, and never fewer occasionally, but at least two hours of practice a day is you know that's minimum. That that would be on the on the on the on the on the low side. We always try to bookend it more or morning and evening as well. So, you know, we're somewhat we are dedicated to that. You know, the other nine months were out, you know, and connecting and teaching and loving, but we we also feel um and we know there's a bit of a trend there. I don't like this trend. Um but we know some teachers who tend to do a little bit less practice now, less of their own practice now. It's not so much a judgment, it's just that this is a we just have a deep appreciation for the depth dimension of these practices. And if this is going to be a significant part of our livelihood, it's both personal and as it were, professional, so to speak. We feel like we owe it to our to our students uh also to to not uh uh not stop deepening our own practice as well. And just in. And so we try to bring what we're saying, of course, into our practice, you know, uh in the practice itself. More holistic, as Susan's saying, body, breath, heart, and mind, more holding environment, more softening, much more inner compassion. There's so many levels and levels and levels to all these, uh, to all these, right? Or plateaus, and then underneath that there's another level and another level. There's so much gripping, and there's so much holding, there's so many levels of holding. And so we're also committed to continuing, just continuing that that that part, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Being on retreat is is very different than uh is like being in a in a a place that is kind of uh deliberately so pared down to the essentials. To just what's needed, right? You know, no, we're not monastics, but you know, the more we can move into that, the really understand what that level of simplicity is, um, it what it allows for uh when the noise is the noise of the world has been uh we we've been sequestered away from that, we are uh uh in a refuge from it. It allows for practice to go deeper. There's a different quality of refinement that happens in a different level of sensitivity at all of the sense doors, which is is a marvel. Um and so that allows for the like the thing that it allows for you see the the Bill mentioned casual attention at the very beginning of this, but you see the movement from casual attention and more and more care, just more and more care and less and less effort and energy over time, right? So, you know, it does not take us as long, for example, to settle at this point. Go on retreat. We just we did three weeks at the end of so we taught in at BCBS and at the end of at the beginning of December and then went up to up the hill to have three weeks, three weeks.
SPEAKER_06And we'll do all of June when we as soon as we go back. Right.
SPEAKER_02And so we we have folded that into our life for sure. Every like every year we look at the year at a glance and put our retreats in.
SPEAKER_06And at the same time, you know, we uh we uh we acknowledge, we understand most people are not gonna be able to practice nearly as much as us. And how do we make this how do we we're always working at making things relevant uh to people who can't practice as much as quickly as possible? You know, how can how do we do that? It's um it's an ongoing iteration of our teaching. It's how do we how do we help people to light things up and to lighten up uh in in in a week, you know, and and even in their daily practice, what's possible here? How can we get more people more interested in daily practice? How can we get them to feel good in a half hour so that they'll want to practice more and so forth and so on? But yeah, from this side we're we're we're committed to keep to deepening, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I just just to finish the piece around retreat, there is a uh the movement between allows me to see to see how I'm living more clearly and what is needed to live well. And also to feel for the balance and the imbalances in life. When we just stay in our life, there's no comparison. And the point of comparison is quite helpful and informative for shaping how to move forward and more skillfully. So that that I I love that conversation. It's a very deep conversation, and I and it it absolutely then has an effect on, you know, the more I'm able to to, for example, stay equanimous in the middle of the storms that are there are many, right? Well, the better off I am and all the people that are around me. And that is that is deeply supported by being able to go to uh a place where there is less noise, and this organism can shed all that is unnecessary as much as possible, so that this can truly be the instrument that it is.
SPEAKER_06We I try to help people now these days, especially with what's going on in the world, to settle their nervous systems as much as possible, you know, as quickly as possible, and to not do open awareness. Open awareness right now for most people in a 20 or 30 minute sit is not going to yield much fruit because there's so much coming at them, assaultive stuff out there's a rough stuff out there. So, how can you give yourself permission to soften and just quiet yourself a little bit as if that's important, as if it's really important to not do open awareness practice right now in your daily practice, but to soften, to settle a little bit, you know?
SPEAKER_02And and there's a trusting of this that actually the more we um we the more we develop the foundation, which I think the foundation, how I sort of think about it is it's a a physical manifestation of concentration. It's the platform out of which the one things pro we want practices.
SPEAKER_01Um I'm very inspired, you know. You you take two months a year to do retreat. And I imagine many of our listeners are a little bit intimidated, you know, two hours minimum a day of practice. But as you said, you know, you really appreciate a lot of people don't have that opportunity. I meet a lot of people who are definitely they can see the benefits
of practice, they are very inspired by the practice, but um, you know, something just keeps them away from having that consistency of a daily practice. Um, and particularly, you know, when people get to a certain stage, they're not suffering in the way that they were before, you know. They can they can deal to a certain extent with what's going on. How do you how do you encourage people to kind of get that consistency? How how how do you bring language to that? What what are your approaches? I I hear you talk about lightness and really the the curiosity and I and I hear so much from you the benefits of the practice, but how do you get to that cushion and keep coming to that cushion every day?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, well, you know, you know, this is of course, this is one of the big, the big questions, you know, for us. And we we work with it a lot with people. That's part of what the daily suit is about, you know. We've gotten so many responses that this is finally the thing that's gotten me to do daily practice because there are 50 or 60 people showing up joining me in the morning, and it's become a very, very alive online Sangha, you know, and and it's sorry to interrupt there, but could you contextualize for our listeners if they're not familiar with the daily set?
SPEAKER_07Yeah. Could you could where'd it come from? What is it? How do you do it?
SPEAKER_06So uh it started the month of March 2020 when when COVID started, and when we were at BCBS, the Barrie Center for Buddhist Studies, uh, and it seemed like a good idea, as one of the things that we did while we were there, we didn't know we were going to be there that long to start this. So we'd started in March of 2020. And it's uh for 45 minutes. Now it's 12 noon Eastern time, uh, Monday through Friday. And at first we did seven days a week for 560 days without missing a single day. At a certain point, we realized we're going to need some reinforcements. So we have some, we did two small teacher trainings with just eight or nine people, and we now we do the daily sit 26 weeks a year, and they do it 26 weeks a year. Yeah. It's just 45 minutes. Two days we have uh a 10 to 15 minute talk and then a uh a meditation for the other half hour. One day is just a guided meditation, one day it's a short meditation and uh QA. And Friday is a uh silence hit. Yeah, so it's different all five days, you know? And it's just we thought it would fade out, but people want to keep coming, and if they keep coming, we'll keep showing up, you know? And it's become uh uh yeah, it's it's it's it'll be six years in March. It'll be uh in March. Yeah, so that's still on that's still ongoing. And of course, that's one of the one of the ways people um uh have gotten into daily practice. But other than that, we have found the sooner we can get people to feel a little bit good in the practice, oh, just the relief, just the relief of oh it's like gold for people, you know, just oh, I can feel a little ease for the first time. I get it. They're more likely to want to do it. It's gotta feel a little bit restorative or a little bit, you know, uh, and of course, that too is hard to get people to that point. But we use that's what we use, all kinds of imagery, all kinds of playfulness, all kinds of, you know, uh we just it's always about you know, one of our mantras is, you know, let's just love them up. Love them just love them up, and and uh and let's show them we're loving it, we're loving this practice, we love this practice, we want you to love this practice. We're here with you, we're supporting you, we just try ever we try everything we can. We try everything we can with people, and uh and we also have just to say for a moment, well can I say that about our our groups, or do you want to pipe in about this?
SPEAKER_02Just for a moment, I'd like to say this brings me back to what I had where I lost the thread. Yeah. Yeah, you know, at the beginning of the pandemic, uh you know, and it's been since the beginning of the pandemic, where there has been more emphasis that we've given on concentration. Um concentration. Soft concentration, because because the world really needs that right now. Like, like it's there's too much going on. If we just do open awareness, people get flooded and overwhelmed and and to feel defeated. Um, and so it's like the learning to to keep coming back in and creating that holding environment because that is the expression of concentration. And if it feels sweet inside, if it feels lovely enough inside, we have the a better capacity to hold what's really happening in here and out there and reactivity and all of that. So I I I it's interesting to think that that honestly, since the pandemic, there's been much more emphasis in our teachings on developing the samadhi and even going deeper all the way to, you know, as as deep as some people can go, right to neighborhood. But to to really understand that that's going to help them to be able to hold what's really happening and navigate.
SPEAKER_06And even incrementally. It's that's gradual. Listen, when you have one sweet breath, one easy breath, appreciate that breath. Exactly. And yes, you want another one. That's good that you want another one. Stop this business about we shouldn't be attached. You should be attached to that. The Buddha said that's why he taught concentration to so people could learn how to feel create, feel good. It's a wholesome state of mind. Yeah, we we do want to learn how to hang out in that space. Give yourself permission to to cultivate that. And never mind what's going on in the mind right now. Just not now. Not no, just not now. Let's do this. Let's cook this up. Let's cook this up, you know.
SPEAKER_02So little by little, somebody, bit by bit, exactly breath breath, you know. And people get it. You know, they also start to get, oh, it's about feeling, it is about feeling more calm and comfortable and comfortable in our skin. Oh. And it's just it's gradual, but but I think that's why people keep hang keep it coming back to the daily sit. And that the support of Sangha, Sangha is gold. We need Sangha desperately, and our culture has needed Sangha, and that's happening now. And and the thing that was so cool is watching a Sangha appear out of thin air.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Right? Like that was mind-blowing to us, like over the uh in COVID, like just suddenly people appear. Yeah. And at its height, it was like there were 150 people that were coming every day. But then when people went back to work is when it started to right, you know, but but it's still holding. And and you know, there are other things like you know, we the thing that was beautiful about that time is that it leveled the playing field, everybody was welcome, a lot of things were offered for free. And we we we teach as much as we can for Donna, like truly for Donna. Donna, Donna, Donna. Because that is that's that's it's it's all about the heart. It's all about that currency, not about the other.
SPEAKER_06But you know, but in terms of Sangha, it was one of our gifts, I think. You know, also we're good at creating community and you know, holding people, holding groups of people. And so we also have 11 groups right now, uh, of 11 eight to 10 psychotherapists in each group. That that um uh and so there are there are many sanghas, but what we've learned and what we learn in psychotherapists is drop-in groups, don't okay, they're okay. Leaderless groups, okay. But when a teacher shows up in a group and it's a closed group, you can get that deepening of trust, of safety, of intimacy, of the willingness to share vulnerability, you know? And uh, and so we've created, yeah, you know, so we've got 11 meaningful sangas going on. And the two that we started 12 years ago are still going. Yeah. Because people people start to, we we we we create sangas so that they're not just relationships with us. We make sure they're gonna make relationships with each other so that they end up. Gee, we're not just practicing now the dharma, we care, we're starting to care about each other.
SPEAKER_02other you know so yeah so we do a lot of that too yeah and I think that that's you know again people are uh as both said earlier you know they're everybody wants to belong everyone wants to be loved everyone wants to be seen and appreciated and feel like they have something to contribute and all of that and and I think it's just like creating those situations for people and they really resonate and they feel they feel connected. It's been amazing to see the connections online and then we have you know we held we've held um so since the daily sit has happened we we do the householder retreat online householder retreat everyone again all Donna somebody could come it's totally fine like I'm more interested that somebody practices than anything else the householder retreat the householder retreat's really big yeah yep okay we can say something about so we we what we do there is we bookend each day with the beginning of the day we we practice and at the end of the day we practice and people can do their work but they do their day in between which is how we work by the way that's how we work you know and and so it's d it's like they're starting to get oh this kind of feels good kind of doing it every day with people like I I can do this you know they notice it then we think hey you know I did it they do and we they do it in their home in that we give them instructions how to do it.
SPEAKER_06Now here's you're gonna do your day. Well let's bring some mindfulness into that day. Here try this try doing a walking meditation in your own house like and it's starting to tell oh you know so anyway we that's another thing that we do every every year. That's become a that's become a big pretty big hit. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I really like that. I mean that's what we do so successfully at the Institute um and you have two pieces that are really coming up this piece of community and practicing and living and you know really engaging in the Dharma together rubbing up against each other having their harm moments together really going through this this exploration and and the bookends of the practice at the beginning at the end as well as you know throughout the day as much as possible.
I I loved what you said about Sangha being gold but at the same time sangha can be so messy you know so so messy. I'm not particularly talking about the institute now I think we we hold such an incredible space there but um can you say something about the the the messiness that that we sometimes experience in in community how how do you how do you work with that? How do you bring the practice when things just feel yeah a lot can come up in those spaces.
SPEAKER_02Well you know the the allowing the messiness to be there is I think important um to not try to you know paper over it in some way and allowing there to be space for people to hold the different views, you know, it's such an important thing to feel like and and that's one of the I think you know we've had um here here's a real example. We had a retreat a couple years ago um I it might have been the first or second retreat with the daily people coming to BCBS when we could but the general public so it's a general public retreat and there's an exercise that we've always done with psychrotherapists and you know it's been uh it's it's been like a staple for us.
SPEAKER_06It's the just like me I could just like me. You're probably familiar with it in some form, you know?
SPEAKER_02Okay so and that uh that actually was too triggering for a couple people and I mean one person was really it was quite quite uh you know and it really sort of disrupted the community and it was very clear like I could you know you could feel it immediately even though we made adjustments it was like it's still in the air. Well you could feel it was still and I just said you know at the end I said you know you know that when we came uh uh we came back together um like uh just a little while later Bill and I had spoken and we decided that we were gonna we met individually with each of the four people I met with the four people without an issue I said I'm happy to meet with anyone who has any any concerns or anything they'd like to talk about and we can just you know right whatever you need we're available and we had a big circle where we talked about it so that the whole room had a chance to talk the people individually felt but they were held and you know I think the all you can do is um do your best and work with it and um really encourage people to keep working within their own practice. And you know we're you know aware of like you know there's we know we are we are aware of our responsibility holding space. And so we take that very seriously and I I will never sweep anything under the rug. You know like that's just you know what I mean like it it's about that kind of transparency because then it makes it easier for all of us to kind of learn how to work with it all. You know we haven't pretty we have a pretty we haven't transcended anything.
SPEAKER_06Yeah and then we have a pretty good sense sensibility about which person or people are a little bit out of it. Yep on the outer edge on the rougher edge right away we can see them we we'll have a way to invite them in and between the two of us. Find a way we'll go you know that person. Or you go you're better through that why don't you connect with that person maybe see if that person needs an individual meeting and so forth and so on. And uh mostly we haven't had too much and you know we and we do you do have a we do some dyadic exercises now in our retreat.
SPEAKER_02It's always and sometimes triadic with with three people but they're fairly structured we don't do crosstalk we do a lot of speaking and listening and very respectfully trying to bring right speech in in into these interactions you know but but inquiry inquiry you know self-reflective inquiry um inquiry into understand like understanding particular themes you know it from within their own practice or life but give them they they have enough structure to be able to really kind of have a dialogue and so we really encourage that and and I honestly the other the other thing about the messiness is you know Bill and I have we have actually always lived with other people like other people have always lived with us and that's been very deliberate. So whether we're on retreat or not we're living in community and the communities have different feels and you kind of as a community negotiate in some way what the what the structure is and what the rules are that and you you know you work within that.
SPEAKER_06And I think just making spaces for people to be able to be honest and hold space for their feelings is you know I have to say I think we might be somewhat blessed in the in the in the sense I think maybe we try to we try to scout ahead and look for where the trouble might show up though. I think we might be pretty good at that but we have relatively little messiness actually really show up on retreats or in our groups or even in the Daily Sit. Although occasionally something something a little funky will will show up there. And um uh I I think it it can show up more in you know large songas that live together we certainly have heard situations like that you know in monasteries or in um where where people you know and then you've got some people you know it's you we'll find this everywhere right exactly there's some people who are uh either younger emotionally maybe haven't done so certain certain you know not everyone is equally so have equally developed their their uh social intelligence and their emotional intelligence we'd like to think the whole world will would have done that but not everyone in a dharma has done that either right and there's a lot of stuff you know as psychologists we can understand there's a lot of transference comes up a lot of reactivity can come up a lot of sibling rivalry can start to come up etc etc but we are uh we don't live in a dar in a dharma center per se no you know but um uh so we don't see a lot of messenger but we have we but we have been uh asked to consult with yeah with several communities who have kind of exploded around with me very difficult things with teachers yeah so um you know we've seen that and it's it's really deeply painful to feel the ruptures like that and also to see the teachers just go off and teach somewhere else without any accountability truly right okay that's that that dissolved but I can create this over here and that's painful.
SPEAKER_02That's a whole other from for so many for so many reasons but like I really we we really try to you know teach our students like you want to be you want to be um you want to grow the teacher in you and you want to be very savvy about who you sit with and know if they're walking their talk. Like that's the main thing. Like I want to see I want to watch you in action and see who are you and are you really living it.
SPEAKER_06Why don't you you know we in devotion is important but there needs to be we think some balance in devotion you know and there needs trust in our own instincts and our own you know et cetera et cetera and I I think this is one of the I mean we all know this there's been abuses of power and it's with a great shadow over Western Dharma at this point. And that needs to be addressed at every level right and it needs you know it's it's a big one. It's a big one.
SPEAKER_02But can I say it is it is also deeply human to be flawed in these ways to actually take the self to be real and to do these things and be unconscious. Like this is again the to me the spiritual bypass this is the bypass and why do people get into trouble? Because they somehow think they've arrived somewhere where they really haven't and the some part is split off and how do we integrate so actually we can see our shadows you know it it's and and especially if you're holding space for other people like we're not perfect.
SPEAKER_06We are so not perfect but we you know we know our stuff we all each other up we keep each other safe you know it's it it's just we feel it's so important and they look at this is what look all we can ultimately do all of us the Dharma comes through all of us in different ways we try to bring you know a certain level of humility of being honest about our our our own uh our own struggles with people we we like to say look we will not take the high seat we don't take the high seat we will not be we will not allow a certain level of idealization to form here that's not you know it that can happen we've seen that happen it le can lead to trouble totally totally can lead to trouble you know there's a lot there's a lot there's a whole big that's a whole whole thing it's a big deal you know I'm I'm really struck um through a conversation and I don't know if I can articulate it so clearly but I think the elements of what you've shared and you know I've known you for a while and you know you're two of my favorite people and what you've articulated are like so many elements of the of the current scenario we find ourselves in.
SPEAKER_07And it it gives some hope right Kunzangla you mentioned it's like it's such a challenging era to be alive in and your articulation of the inner experience and the outer experience the relationship the community the tactics the strategies that we could use I think it just um yeah it's really it's it's quite profound to hear it in in quick succession. So um really just just amazing the other observation
is I have is you I I think we're gonna end relatively soon but you have to come back because there's whole elements of your lives that we had planned and hoped to talk about that we didn't get to so we're gonna have to schedule another podcast recording because they're just as interesting.
SPEAKER_02We're cool you know our cool look thank you for giving us the you know the the the time to just like you know sometimes yeah oh yeah kind of this is what we this is cool we know you know is that yeah it's kind of an opportunity oh yeah so uh we appreciate a lot yeah and and uh we do we do you know and I I just have to I want to say this too you know so we're here we are living in on the big island of Hawaii in spiritual community with with a group of other Dharma teachers from other traditions. Laza will Lama Willa is like you know we're yeah you know we're sharing the space with will with Lama Willa you know like you know so so um for us coming here is is also a different bridge between living and like like doing doing life on 25 Mayhew in Boston doing life in Barrie Massachusetts which can be kind of expensive one could say and then uh being able to live in in so deeply in the elemental holy smokes and to feel practice ripen in the natural world again like in a deep way is just like so powerful.
SPEAKER_06You know and other than that a part probably another core part of our lives is we we we see the body thanks to Susan as well as as a temple and we really honor it with both um uh well with practice but also with um with exercise totally committed to exercise and totally committed to not putting any food in our mouths that isn't wholesome or water and just to honor the temple and to be honest we want to keep this thing rolling for as long as possible you know I will often say we want to pay the univer the universe for all the goodness and the way it's watered us and nurtured us. Yeah yeah can't retiring we're gonna keep rolling as long as long as we can so we want to keep I know heard a couple teachers say they they they're gonna have to stop because of stamina we don't ever want that to be the reason. And so we do exercise pretty hard we do we're pretty hardy about just doing what we can do.
SPEAKER_02There's so much that's we're not in control of but we really try to honor the body in that way is also not you know right we've yeah you yeah so I wanted I so I like to say that I I want to make as big a ripple in the pond as possible.
SPEAKER_01So I want to keep on I like that I mean that's a beautiful beautiful image for for us to to to end on and just to say those of you who who are listening to this podcast you can't actually see Bill and Susan but the colour that you're wearing you it bring and uh your big beanie smiles um and uh we got to see the the the space that you're in in Hawaii at the beginning of our conversation it just looks absolutely stunning.
SPEAKER_07I I can really see how like the the elements breathing in breathing out and uh yeah it's great it's great to see you again as well and and and of course uh of course Justin both of you thank you so much for for indulging us in this way so beautiful a lot of wisdom shared a lot of wisdom shared and that ripple will go so um really just deep thanks for joining us to see you in person sometimes soon yeah but we'll have to make it happen yeah yeah let's definitely make it happen right yeah right but for now enjoy the big island thank you thank you all of us thank you for your practice both of you thank you for your thank you for the ways you love in the world absolutely thank you you both take good care all right bye now if you enjoyed this episode we'd be grateful if you left a review subscribed to the channel or shared it with somebody that you love as a 501c3 the Turga Institute relies on your generosity to continue offering transformational programs rooted in Vajrayana Buddhism to support our work and explore our course offerings visit us at turgarinstitute.org until next time may your awareness be steady may your heart be open and may your wisdom be ever present