{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.289,"endTime":3.95,"body":"You're listening to for the record, a registrar podcast sponsored by"},{"startTime":4.07,"endTime":4.51,"body":"Acro."},{"startTime":4.639,"endTime":5.71,"body":"I'm Josh Eiler,"},{"startTime":5.719,"endTime":8.63,"body":"Director of the Center for Excellence in Teaching and Learning and"},{"startTime":8.64,"endTime":11.14,"body":"Clinical assistant professor of teacher education"},{"startTime":11.149,"endTime":12.67,"body":"at the University of Mississippi."},{"startTime":12.75,"endTime":15.02,"body":"And this is the problem with grades."},{"startTime":22.62,"endTime":25.43,"body":"Hello and welcome to for the record."},{"startTime":25.44,"endTime":26.149,"body":"I'm your host,"},{"startTime":26.159,"endTime":30.639,"body":"Doug mckenna University Registrar at George Mason University in Fairfax,"},{"startTime":30.649,"endTime":31.239,"body":"Virginia."},{"startTime":31.719,"endTime":35.86,"body":"Today, we're gonna be talking about a topic that is near and dear to my heart,"},{"startTime":36.11,"endTime":39.009,"body":"the problem with grades and grading."},{"startTime":39.189,"endTime":42.169,"body":"And I'm very excited to welcome our guest today, Dr"},{"startTime":42.33,"endTime":45.509,"body":"Joshua Eiler. So there's so much to talk about"},{"startTime":45.7,"endTime":50.34,"body":"and we're just going to jump right in. So, Josh, welcome to the podcast."},{"startTime":50.349,"endTime":51.9,"body":"Thank you, Doug. Glad to be here."},{"startTime":52.38,"endTime":53.59,"body":"It's wonderful to have you."},{"startTime":53.599,"endTime":56.33,"body":"And like I said, I'm, I'm really excited about this topic. So,"},{"startTime":56.569,"endTime":60.29,"body":"before we dive in, would you tell us a little bit about yourself?"},{"startTime":60.299,"endTime":62.59,"body":"Sort of what your career has looked like so far?"},{"startTime":62.729,"endTime":66.209,"body":"And then what brought you, you're at Old Miss currently, correct? Yeah."},{"startTime":66.22,"endTime":67.949,"body":"So what brought you to Old Miss?"},{"startTime":68.239,"endTime":73.279,"body":"Yeah. So I began my career as a faculty member at Columbus State University."},{"startTime":73.29,"endTime":76.029,"body":"In Georgia, which is mid size comprehensive"},{"startTime":76.48,"endTime":80.98,"body":"uh very diverse institution with an open access mission in Georgia."},{"startTime":81.319,"endTime":82.529,"body":"Um and"},{"startTime":82.639,"endTime":87.099,"body":"love the teaching that I did there. And it was so clear how much impact"},{"startTime":87.309,"endTime":90.43,"body":"the work that my colleagues uh were doing with"},{"startTime":90.44,"endTime":93.72,"body":"students and helping those students to build their lives."},{"startTime":93.73,"endTime":94.089,"body":"And"},{"startTime":94.41,"endTime":96.62,"body":"uh that was really meaningful for me."},{"startTime":96.629,"endTime":98.61,"body":"And I really wanted to think about how I"},{"startTime":98.62,"endTime":101.79,"body":"could contribute to teaching initiatives on a broader,"},{"startTime":101.8,"endTime":105.389,"body":"a broader scale and be part of a larger"},{"startTime":105.4,"endTime":108.51,"body":"conversation about teaching and learning in higher education."},{"startTime":108.79,"endTime":110.989,"body":"So I made the decision after I got tenure to"},{"startTime":111.0,"endTime":114.04,"body":"move to the world of teaching and learning centers."},{"startTime":114.05,"endTime":118.29,"body":"And I, I actually moved to George Mason. Uh that was my first position"},{"startTime":118.51,"endTime":122.51,"body":"in the teaching center. I worked with the great Kim Eb who uh"},{"startTime":122.949,"endTime":127.449,"body":"associate provost. She was both associate provost and director back then. And"},{"startTime":127.589,"endTime":132.33,"body":"I was the associate director and learned so much from her. She was, she was amazing."},{"startTime":132.529,"endTime":134.21,"body":"She was phenomenal. Yeah."},{"startTime":134.619,"endTime":139.41,"body":"Uh spent two years there and then Rice University was starting a brand new"},{"startTime":139.419,"endTime":143.96,"body":"teaching center and I moved there to be the founding director and spent six years"},{"startTime":143.97,"endTime":147.679,"body":"working with a great staff and a great group of faculty to build that from"},{"startTime":147.69,"endTime":149.919,"body":"the ground up and really advocate for"},{"startTime":149.929,"endTime":152.759,"body":"the teaching mission at a research institution."},{"startTime":152.77,"endTime":153.199,"body":"It was,"},{"startTime":153.339,"endTime":154.479,"body":"it was a lot of fun."},{"startTime":155.029,"endTime":158.809,"body":"2019, a position came open here at the University of Mississippi"},{"startTime":159.38,"endTime":162.86,"body":"to help rebuild the teaching center as a director"},{"startTime":162.979,"endTime":164.86,"body":"and also to direct our five"},{"startTime":165.009,"endTime":169.66,"body":"year quality enhancement plan, which is on critical thinking in gen ed courses."},{"startTime":169.669,"endTime":172.05,"body":"So I do both at the same time."},{"startTime":172.059,"endTime":175.33,"body":"Plus, there was a little bit of a pandemic sprinkled in there. So we were very"},{"startTime":175.44,"endTime":176.979,"body":"busy with that."},{"startTime":177.63,"endTime":181.72,"body":"So it's, it's been a fascinating ride and I've,"},{"startTime":181.729,"endTime":184.979,"body":"I really love seeing all the changes that have happened"},{"startTime":185.24,"endTime":189.22,"body":"in teaching and learning over my time doing this work."},{"startTime":189.3,"endTime":191.66,"body":"And among those many changes,"},{"startTime":191.669,"endTime":195.74,"body":"there's been a lot of movement in the conversation about grading"},{"startTime":196.199,"endTime":197.259,"body":"as an audience."},{"startTime":197.27,"endTime":202.729,"body":"This is a podcast largely focused for registrars or registrar adjacent people."},{"startTime":202.74,"endTime":207.539,"body":"And so maybe say a couple of more words about what a teaching center does."},{"startTime":207.55,"endTime":213.339,"body":"What, what is the work that you do as part of a teaching and learning center?"},{"startTime":213.529,"endTime":216.36,"body":"Absolutely. And then I have a shout out for registrars."},{"startTime":217.61,"endTime":218.419,"body":"Yes. So"},{"startTime":218.649,"endTime":219.869,"body":"uh a teaching center,"},{"startTime":219.94,"endTime":223.74,"body":"our mission is to support enhance the teaching that happens at a,"},{"startTime":223.869,"endTime":224.759,"body":"at a university."},{"startTime":224.77,"endTime":227.85,"body":"So we work with faculty to implement"},{"startTime":227.86,"endTime":230.979,"body":"evidence based teaching practices in their classrooms."},{"startTime":231.039,"endTime":234.759,"body":"We advocate for a better incentive structure"},{"startTime":234.77,"endTime":238.08,"body":"at the university to support teaching innovation."},{"startTime":238.27,"endTime":241.419,"body":"We do a lot of work with graduate students both in their role"},{"startTime":241.429,"endTime":246.57,"body":"as tas but also looking ahead for those who want to be future faculty"},{"startTime":246.83,"endTime":249.16,"body":"and many teaching centers now even and,"},{"startTime":249.169,"endTime":252.85,"body":"and ours is no exception even support undergrads who"},{"startTime":252.86,"endTime":256.928,"body":"do things like uh tutoring and our learning assistants"},{"startTime":257.25,"endTime":260.64,"body":"and, and uh at rice, they even taught some courses so"},{"startTime":261.399,"endTime":262.5,"body":"a whole range."},{"startTime":262.51,"endTime":266.799,"body":"But everything is connected to the latest research on teaching"},{"startTime":266.809,"endTime":270.85,"body":"and how to help our students learn better through implementing"},{"startTime":271.26,"endTime":271.799,"body":"more of"},{"startTime":272.07,"endTime":273.059,"body":"teaching practice."},{"startTime":273.25,"endTime":273.89,"body":"That's awesome."},{"startTime":274.029,"endTime":279.35,"body":"And the shout out to the registrars is that I wanted to say for, for this podcast,"},{"startTime":279.359,"endTime":281.269,"body":"registrars have been among"},{"startTime":281.399,"endTime":285.989,"body":"the biggest allies for the grading reform work that we are about to talk about."},{"startTime":286.0,"endTime":289.66,"body":"Uh There have been any number of instances that I can think of"},{"startTime":289.769,"endTime":291.829,"body":"off the top of my head when the question has"},{"startTime":291.839,"endTime":295.26,"body":"come from a dean or a chair or a provost about"},{"startTime":295.269,"endTime":298.89,"body":"whether or not it is possible possible for people to change"},{"startTime":298.899,"endTime":302.519,"body":"the way they grade and use these alternative grading practices."},{"startTime":302.64,"endTime":306.14,"body":"And the registrars I've worked with have always swooped in and said,"},{"startTime":306.339,"endTime":309.91,"body":"what we care about is that there are grades on the transcript"},{"startTime":309.92,"endTime":315.649,"body":"and we trust faculty in their professional expertise to determine those grades."},{"startTime":315.66,"endTime":317.779,"body":"And so I can't thank you and your community enough"},{"startTime":317.79,"endTime":320.339,"body":"for the support that you give to these initiatives."},{"startTime":320.51,"endTime":322.26,"body":"Fantastic. I love to hear that."},{"startTime":322.72,"endTime":326.869,"body":"Let's talk a little bit about how you got started into the,"},{"startTime":326.88,"endTime":330.75,"body":"the research of grades and grading and you mentioned it a little bit as part of"},{"startTime":330.76,"endTime":334.07,"body":"your work in the teaching and learning space"},{"startTime":334.079,"endTime":336.579,"body":"and having some of these conversations come up."},{"startTime":336.82,"endTime":341.51,"body":"Um But really what sparked your interest in researching grades and grading."},{"startTime":341.88,"endTime":346.66,"body":"Sure, a couple of years ago, I uh put out a book called How Humans Learn."},{"startTime":346.67,"endTime":350.54,"body":"And when I was working on that book, which is about the science of learning,"},{"startTime":350.709,"endTime":356.38,"body":"I was writing a chapter on failure and how failure can be a tool for better,"},{"startTime":356.39,"endTime":357.42,"body":"better learning,"},{"startTime":357.6,"endTime":358.79,"body":"um better teaching."},{"startTime":358.95,"endTime":360.04,"body":"And I was,"},{"startTime":360.049,"endTime":364.059,"body":"I kept coming across research about grades and how"},{"startTime":364.07,"endTime":367.279,"body":"they set up obstacles to that natural learning process."},{"startTime":367.589,"endTime":370.429,"body":"So that was really intriguing to me."},{"startTime":370.529,"endTime":373.39,"body":"Uh It was sort of a tangent for the chapter,"},{"startTime":373.399,"endTime":377.17,"body":"but I kind of filed it away as something that I wanted to think more about."},{"startTime":377.489,"endTime":378.809,"body":"And at the same time,"},{"startTime":378.82,"endTime":384.13,"body":"there started to grow this movement and this conversation amongst"},{"startTime":384.14,"endTime":389.01,"body":"so many educators about changing the way they were grading"},{"startTime":389.162,"endTime":389.942,"body":"the classroom."},{"startTime":389.953,"endTime":393.643,"body":"And I know we'll talk about some of those different models in a few minutes, but"},{"startTime":393.882,"endTime":395.953,"body":"so many people were thinking about it and doing it."},{"startTime":395.963,"endTime":398.743,"body":"And I was, I was experimenting with it myself that"},{"startTime":399.183,"endTime":404.562,"body":"I was really drawn then to the idea of writing a book that would give"},{"startTime":404.572,"endTime":410.502,"body":"a kind of bird's eye view of the landscape when it came to thinking about the"},{"startTime":410.735,"endTime":412.006,"body":"problems of grades."},{"startTime":412.015,"endTime":413.915,"body":"So not just in the classroom,"},{"startTime":414.006,"endTime":417.555,"body":"but how grades affect people outside of the classroom as well."},{"startTime":417.566,"endTime":424.235,"body":"And then what we can do from our own positions to really help solve those problems."},{"startTime":424.246,"endTime":428.096,"body":"Fantastic. And that book, the most recent book is failing our future,"},{"startTime":428.235,"endTime":430.355,"body":"how grades harm students"},{"startTime":430.645,"endTime":432.235,"body":"and what we can do about it."},{"startTime":432.44,"endTime":437.549,"body":"And it's set to be released. August 27th. But if you pre ordered it as I did,"},{"startTime":437.75,"endTime":439.72,"body":"it arrived yesterday. So,"},{"startTime":441.54,"endTime":444.42,"body":"yeah, it's beautiful. I, I am holding it now"},{"startTime":444.839,"endTime":447.73,"body":"so I've only read about a third of it. I got it yesterday afternoon."},{"startTime":447.739,"endTime":450.22,"body":"I walked the dogs in the evening and I sat down with it."},{"startTime":450.51,"endTime":453.41,"body":"It's very good. I want to congratulate you on the book."},{"startTime":453.42,"endTime":456.059,"body":"Um I've enjoyed the parts that I've read so far."},{"startTime":456.22,"endTime":459.6,"body":"And then I also want to give you an opportunity to talk some about it."},{"startTime":459.609,"endTime":463.44,"body":"And so let's start a little bit with the history of grades."},{"startTime":463.45,"endTime":467.209,"body":"And you mentioned in the book specifically Ezra Stiles,"},{"startTime":467.22,"endTime":471.929,"body":"President of Yale and Horace Mann Educational Reformer."},{"startTime":471.97,"endTime":472.649,"body":"And so"},{"startTime":473.089,"endTime":478.149,"body":"tell us about the contribution those two individuals specifically made,"},{"startTime":478.41,"endTime":480.79,"body":"right? Yeah, they're interesting fellows"},{"startTime":481.019,"endTime":482.57,"body":"and uh in some ways,"},{"startTime":482.579,"endTime":486.19,"body":"their contribution discussion about grades really"},{"startTime":486.2,"endTime":488.47,"body":"shapes what shapes that history."},{"startTime":488.48,"endTime":488.829,"body":"So"},{"startTime":489.1,"endTime":489.299,"body":"Esther"},{"startTime":489.399,"endTime":489.47,"body":"Sts"},{"startTime":489.76,"endTime":493.269,"body":"was the president of Yale University in the late 17 hundreds"},{"startTime":493.54,"endTime":497.04,"body":"and he gets the credit or the blame depending on your"},{"startTime":497.049,"endTime":502.72,"body":"perspective for bringing our first system of grading to America."},{"startTime":502.88,"endTime":504.279,"body":"He didn't invent it."},{"startTime":504.29,"endTime":509.399,"body":"He borrowed it from British Universities, a system that was very popular at the time"},{"startTime":509.529,"endTime":511.75,"body":"and this system was, it looks"},{"startTime":511.89,"endTime":514.84,"body":"uh in some ways, nothing at all like what we use today."},{"startTime":514.849,"endTime":518.479,"body":"And then other is exactly the same as what we used today."},{"startTime":518.76,"endTime":524.299,"body":"And he was, he back then, the university education meant essentially that"},{"startTime":524.549,"endTime":529.84,"body":"you were subjected to at the end of that, at the end of the term,"},{"startTime":529.849,"endTime":533.89,"body":"a major oral exam that covered everything that you"},{"startTime":533.9,"endTime":536.599,"body":"had learned from rhetoric to Greek to Latin,"},{"startTime":536.609,"endTime":537.52,"body":"uh all of it."},{"startTime":537.82,"endTime":544.09,"body":"And he examined these students and divided them based on"},{"startTime":544.099,"endTime":547.5,"body":"their performance into four categories that had Latin labels."},{"startTime":547.51,"endTime":547.82,"body":"But"},{"startTime":547.989,"endTime":550.58,"body":"the translations were best,"},{"startTime":550.809,"endTime":554.88,"body":"second best, the lower of the good group"},{"startTime":555.299,"endTime":559.21,"body":"and worse, not worse, which I think is interesting but worse."},{"startTime":559.219,"endTime":561.359,"body":"So I pulled back a little bit at the end."},{"startTime":561.51,"endTime":565.219,"body":"But so the students were divided into those 44 categories."},{"startTime":565.229,"endTime":566.77,"body":"They were sorted and ranked"},{"startTime":566.969,"endTime":569.08,"body":"based on their performance."},{"startTime":569.09,"endTime":573.159,"body":"And we don't have that kind of system anymore,"},{"startTime":573.169,"endTime":577.559,"body":"but grades very much still are used for sorting and ranking."},{"startTime":577.57,"endTime":582.33,"body":"And you could argue that things like Latin honors and uh GPA"},{"startTime":582.34,"endTime":588.239,"body":"S and class rank are legacies of the original intention for,"},{"startTime":588.25,"endTime":589.14,"body":"for grades."},{"startTime":589.44,"endTime":593.71,"body":"So he, he starts the ball rolling in America"},{"startTime":594.039,"endTime":594.9,"body":"and"},{"startTime":595.299,"endTime":598.33,"body":"education in America at that time was the"},{"startTime":598.539,"endTime":601.929,"body":"special university education was for wealthy white men."},{"startTime":601.94,"endTime":608.869,"body":"And the public educational system was very disparate depending"},{"startTime":608.88,"endTime":611.19,"body":"on where you were as a young person."},{"startTime":611.45,"endTime":614.619,"body":"You could have a real well developed uh kind of"},{"startTime":614.63,"endTime":618.15,"body":"school system or you could have uh you know,"},{"startTime":618.159,"endTime":621.28,"body":"Nathan Hale in Connecticut was a school teacher."},{"startTime":621.289,"endTime":624.07,"body":"He had a little wooden house and a couple"},{"startTime":624.08,"endTime":626.84,"body":"of kids from rural Connecticut who would be there."},{"startTime":626.849,"endTime":628.969,"body":"So it really depended on where you were"},{"startTime":629.119,"endTime":635.14,"body":"Horace Mann who lived in the middle of the 19th century, changed a lot of that."},{"startTime":635.15,"endTime":639.13,"body":"He had a fascinating life including taking over John"},{"startTime":639.14,"endTime":641.82,"body":"Quincy adams' seat in the House of Representatives."},{"startTime":642.26,"endTime":645.489,"body":"But he's best known for his education reform."},{"startTime":645.5,"endTime":649.4,"body":"He was Secretary of the Massachusetts Board of Education."},{"startTime":649.679,"endTime":652.14,"body":"And as part of that, he"},{"startTime":652.46,"endTime":656.299,"body":"implemented changes to that system that really came"},{"startTime":656.309,"endTime":659.739,"body":"to define our school systems in America,"},{"startTime":659.75,"endTime":664.179,"body":"that much of what we know about school and education is due to Horace Mann."},{"startTime":664.19,"endTime":669.859,"body":"So school districts taxpayer funded schools, school libraries,"},{"startTime":669.869,"endTime":672.89,"body":"professional development for teachers, standardized testing."},{"startTime":672.9,"endTime":674.719,"body":"All of it comes from Horace Mann,"},{"startTime":674.95,"endTime":678.059,"body":"but the connection to grades is one"},{"startTime":678.719,"endTime":680.44,"body":"that I find fascinating."},{"startTime":680.45,"endTime":684.489,"body":"So he was interested in two separate things that"},{"startTime":684.5,"endTime":688.539,"body":"together begin to shape our modern conversation about grades."},{"startTime":688.549,"endTime":689.969,"body":"One is that"},{"startTime":690.34,"endTime":692.659,"body":"he did not think that it was uh"},{"startTime":692.9,"endTime":695.02,"body":"beneficial for students"},{"startTime":695.27,"endTime":699.349,"body":"to compete against each other in the oral exam"},{"startTime":699.359,"endTime":702.359,"body":"structure that had been in place for so long."},{"startTime":702.429,"endTime":705.0,"body":"He thought it was much more beneficial for"},{"startTime":705.01,"endTime":708.599,"body":"learning that students undergo what he called self"},{"startTime":708.7,"endTime":712.159,"body":"emulation, meaning they weren't trying to beat their classmate,"},{"startTime":712.169,"endTime":715.59,"body":"they were trying to improve themselves each performance."},{"startTime":715.619,"endTime":719.609,"body":"So he really tried to place a, a lot of emphasis in his writing"},{"startTime":719.719,"endTime":723.299,"body":"and he wrote these massive reports every year uh on,"},{"startTime":723.309,"endTime":725.76,"body":"on the focus of the classroom being on"},{"startTime":725.77,"endTime":730.059,"body":"the student individually and their own individual performance."},{"startTime":730.219,"endTime":734.19,"body":"So you combine that with his obsession with record keeping."},{"startTime":734.26,"endTime":739.7,"body":"He uh he developed this uh this um this form with"},{"startTime":739.71,"endTime":743.83,"body":"all these different things that teachers had to note about students."},{"startTime":743.9,"endTime":749.719,"body":"It was attendance and comportment and behavior and all sorts of things. And so"},{"startTime":749.94,"endTime":754.229,"body":"eventually that interest in record keeping along with"},{"startTime":754.239,"endTime":757.78,"body":"uh this newer interest in individual progress,"},{"startTime":757.789,"endTime":761.799,"body":"he joined with others who were interested in those things to lead to eventually"},{"startTime":761.809,"endTime":767.229,"body":"what we know now is report cards and reporting progress in the class,"},{"startTime":767.239,"endTime":768.33,"body":"to students"},{"startTime":768.53,"endTime":769.76,"body":"and to parents."},{"startTime":770.2,"endTime":770.599,"body":"And that,"},{"startTime":770.679,"endTime":773.52,"body":"that shift to the individual I think is"},{"startTime":773.53,"endTime":777.63,"body":"an important moment for the conversation about grades,"},{"startTime":777.75,"endTime":782.38,"body":"letter grades themselves are relatively new to the conversation."},{"startTime":782.39,"endTime":785.609,"body":"First letter grades happened in the 18 nineties"},{"startTime":785.83,"endTime":790.19,"body":"and, uh, they're not standardized and this is what I think is really interesting."},{"startTime":790.359,"endTime":793.299,"body":"They're not standardized until the 19 forties."},{"startTime":793.45,"endTime":797.38,"body":"So that's less than 100 years. And the only reason they were standing,"},{"startTime":797.78,"endTime":801.78,"body":"meaning schools across the country adopted the A through F system"},{"startTime":802.09,"endTime":802.4,"body":"was,"},{"startTime":802.409,"endTime":804.28,"body":"it wasn't because they thought this is the"},{"startTime":804.289,"endTime":807.679,"body":"best way to demonstrate that students are learning."},{"startTime":807.739,"endTime":811.299,"body":"It was so that they could talk across institutions"},{"startTime":811.409,"endTime":813.94,"body":"that they could be compared to each other"},{"startTime":814.059,"endTime":817.159,"body":"and also to set students up with a common,"},{"startTime":817.369,"endTime":820.26,"body":"a common language, a common transcript,"},{"startTime":820.27,"endTime":824.159,"body":"one that would look familiar to all of the colleges that they would apply to."},{"startTime":824.45,"endTime":831.07,"body":"Yeah. And actually registrars have a big part in that Acro was founded in 1910"},{"startTime":831.369,"endTime":836.789,"body":"and one of the early gatherings, annual meetings now of registrars,"},{"startTime":836.799,"endTime":839.229,"body":"there was sort of a task force put"},{"startTime":839.239,"endTime":844.07,"body":"together to talk amongst higher education institutions about"},{"startTime":844.309,"endTime":845.609,"body":"how to present"},{"startTime":845.859,"endTime":847.789,"body":"the information from one school to the other"},{"startTime":847.799,"endTime":850.039,"body":"school and the development of the transcript."},{"startTime":850.26,"endTime":850.77,"body":"So"},{"startTime":850.929,"endTime":851.75,"body":"interesting."},{"startTime":851.929,"endTime":853.119,"body":"Yeah, I had"},{"startTime":853.309,"endTime":856.44,"body":"Ethan Hutt who you might know at least by name"},{"startTime":856.75,"endTime":859.409,"body":"on as one of the very first guests about"},{"startTime":859.419,"endTime":861.76,"body":"talking about the history of the academic record."},{"startTime":862.33,"endTime":865.64,"body":"And I know that he and Jack Jack Schneider."},{"startTime":866.64,"endTime":866.82,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":867.049,"endTime":872.659,"body":"Um also have this history of the A through F grade scheme. And so"},{"startTime":872.84,"endTime":873.869,"body":"one thing that I"},{"startTime":874.164,"endTime":876.984,"body":"also like to point out to everybody about the"},{"startTime":876.994,"endTime":879.784,"body":"A through F interval letter grade scheme is that"},{"startTime":880.044,"endTime":883.114,"body":"it might be common across institutions, but"},{"startTime":883.325,"endTime":885.525,"body":"it's just a framework."},{"startTime":885.625,"endTime":887.974,"body":"And so there's a significant amount of"},{"startTime":887.984,"endTime":891.494,"body":"variation between institutions where some use pluses,"},{"startTime":891.505,"endTime":892.604,"body":"some use minuses,"},{"startTime":892.625,"endTime":895.255,"body":"some don't use either the quality points"},{"startTime":895.265,"endTime":897.465,"body":"that people associate with different things."},{"startTime":897.645,"endTime":902.344,"body":"So it is a common language and a common framework, but it is definitely not"},{"startTime":902.679,"endTime":907.38,"body":"like a full on standard. Everybody's using the same system kind of a thing."},{"startTime":907.39,"endTime":908.45,"body":"Absolutely right."},{"startTime":908.59,"endTime":909.659,"body":"Yet there's"},{"startTime":910.159,"endTime":910.169,"body":"a"},{"startTime":910.27,"endTime":910.32,"body":"AAA"},{"startTime":910.909,"endTime":912.219,"body":"perception"},{"startTime":912.349,"endTime":913.859,"body":"that it is the same,"},{"startTime":914.09,"endTime":918.979,"body":"right and, and with some scientific certainty like an A and A and A but that's"},{"startTime":919.229,"endTime":921.83,"body":"as we know. So let's dive in"},{"startTime":922.419,"endTime":928.429,"body":"what does research tell us about students responses"},{"startTime":928.549,"endTime":929.659,"body":"to grades"},{"startTime":931.479,"endTime":934.51,"body":"well, a lot and none of it's really all that good. Um,"},{"startTime":936.909,"endTime":942.979,"body":"so you have the responses in the classroom and great. The, the research on"},{"startTime":943.19,"endTime":948.099,"body":"grades and their role in the classroom is probably our biggest,"},{"startTime":948.169,"endTime":950.9,"body":"our biggest bucket of research that we have"},{"startTime":950.909,"endTime":953.9,"body":"and the ways that grades affect motivation and,"},{"startTime":954.005,"endTime":956.866,"body":"and the ways that, that it affects learning overall."},{"startTime":956.955,"endTime":958.945,"body":"But if we're talking about student responses,"},{"startTime":958.955,"endTime":962.276,"body":"the research about motivation is probably the most important."},{"startTime":962.445,"endTime":964.486,"body":"And I don't think that there's anyone"},{"startTime":964.685,"endTime":970.135,"body":"in higher ed who would argue that grades are not extrinsic motivators, they are,"},{"startTime":970.145,"endTime":975.556,"body":"they're classic extrinsic motivators like prizes and rewards and, and candy."},{"startTime":976.036,"endTime":976.745,"body":"They can be both"},{"startTime":976.851,"endTime":982.762,"body":"the carrot and the stick in a way. But both of those are external to the individual."},{"startTime":982.771,"endTime":983.752,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":983.841,"endTime":988.392,"body":"And you know, extrinsic motivators derived directly from behaviorism,"},{"startTime":988.401,"endTime":990.341,"body":"they are about shaping behavior."},{"startTime":990.521,"endTime":995.872,"body":"And so we know that they uh the research shows that extrinsic motivators work,"},{"startTime":995.932,"endTime":999.552,"body":"but they work only if your goal is compliance."},{"startTime":999.88,"endTime":1002.739,"body":"So if you want to make someone do something that they would"},{"startTime":1002.859,"endTime":1007.46,"body":"in other, in any other context, not do extrinsic motivators work."},{"startTime":1007.469,"endTime":1009.32,"body":"So they work to get students in seats,"},{"startTime":1009.429,"endTime":1015.13,"body":"they work to get students to turn things in on time uh to participate in class. But"},{"startTime":1015.26,"endTime":1019.169,"body":"an extrinsic motivator will never guarantee that just because the"},{"startTime":1019.179,"endTime":1022.58,"body":"student is in the learning environment that they will actually learn"},{"startTime":1022.83,"endTime":1027.38,"body":"that takes intrinsic motivation. Learning depends on intrinsic motivation."},{"startTime":1027.979,"endTime":1028.608,"body":"So a"},{"startTime":1028.839,"endTime":1034.118,"body":"student response to grades as they now stand are largely I have to"},{"startTime":1034.13,"endTime":1039.64,"body":"do this because it is required of me because my future requires it."},{"startTime":1039.839,"endTime":1044.42,"body":"Uh, I need to get into a good college, get a good job, get into good grad school,"},{"startTime":1044.43,"endTime":1045.06,"body":"et cetera."},{"startTime":1045.26,"endTime":1051.439,"body":"Not because I care at all about the learning that happens or the subject matter,"},{"startTime":1051.449,"endTime":1052.67,"body":"it's about the grade"},{"startTime":1052.939,"endTime":1060.16,"body":"and you know, that to me runs completely counter to what our hopes are for education."},{"startTime":1060.489,"endTime":1061.92,"body":"Uh that, that we,"},{"startTime":1061.93,"endTime":1063.689,"body":"we want students to find their passion to"},{"startTime":1063.699,"endTime":1065.91,"body":"be really interested in what we're teaching."},{"startTime":1065.959,"endTime":1069.15,"body":"But the grading system is, is not set up for that"},{"startTime":1069.28,"endTime":1071.209,"body":"if we look outside the classroom though."},{"startTime":1071.219,"endTime":1074.01,"body":"And this is where the bulk of the first half of my"},{"startTime":1074.02,"endTime":1079.739,"body":"book is really focused on what happens outside after the grade is given"},{"startTime":1079.91,"endTime":1084.625,"body":"and it really does affect people uh their lives, they see themselves."},{"startTime":1084.875,"endTime":1089.826,"body":"So we have research showing how grades magnify inequities for students"},{"startTime":1089.845,"endTime":1093.526,"body":"inequities that have always been a part of our educational institutions."},{"startTime":1093.625,"endTime":1099.786,"body":"We have new studies showing more and more how grades and academic stress tied"},{"startTime":1099.796,"endTime":1102.166,"body":"to grades are contributing to the mental"},{"startTime":1102.176,"endTime":1104.745,"body":"health crisis in teenagers and young adults."},{"startTime":1104.926,"endTime":1107.562,"body":"And that was only, I just saw a paper today"},{"startTime":1107.671,"endTime":1113.251,"body":"that um of course COVID exacerbated that anxiety but anxiety"},{"startTime":1113.261,"endTime":1117.891,"body":"specifically related to academics has not gone down after COVID."},{"startTime":1117.952,"endTime":1119.021,"body":"Uh And so"},{"startTime":1119.342,"endTime":1124.612,"body":"there's a lot there connected to grades that is uh that is really harming our,"},{"startTime":1124.621,"endTime":1126.401,"body":"our students and their mental health."},{"startTime":1126.411,"endTime":1128.541,"body":"And so that to me is, is really important,"},{"startTime":1129.449,"endTime":1129.989,"body":"right on"},{"startTime":1130.77,"endTime":1136.01,"body":"you talk about the complexity of the issue of grades and grading and that"},{"startTime":1136.3,"endTime":1138.39,"body":"talking about grading"},{"startTime":1138.609,"endTime":1142.979,"body":"is much more than just addressing a letter or a number or a mark or a symbol."},{"startTime":1143.3,"endTime":1147.709,"body":"So, could you share what you mean by the concept of a grading model?"},{"startTime":1147.839,"endTime":1149.969,"body":"What are they, what do they mean?"},{"startTime":1149.979,"endTime":1154.589,"body":"What do you include in your concept of a grading model?"},{"startTime":1155.579,"endTime":1158.569,"body":"That's a really great question. Um I'm glad you asked."},{"startTime":1158.579,"endTime":1161.339,"body":"Not a lot of people do ask about that one. So"},{"startTime":1162.75,"endTime":1164.969,"body":"yes, you're absolutely right."},{"startTime":1164.979,"endTime":1172.3,"body":"Grading is more than I'm just putting a letter on an exam or uh on the paper."},{"startTime":1172.369,"endTime":1177.319,"body":"Grading entails my approach to feedback as a teacher."},{"startTime":1177.329,"endTime":1178.979,"body":"What kinds of feedback do I give?"},{"startTime":1178.989,"endTime":1182.329,"body":"How do I communicate the learning that is happening?"},{"startTime":1182.479,"endTime":1187.635,"body":"Uh while I'm giving the grade, it's tied to my philosophy as an educator."},{"startTime":1187.824,"endTime":1191.045,"body":"It's tied to my beliefs about students and learning."},{"startTime":1191.214,"endTime":1195.224,"body":"Uh and it's tied to the overall course design and,"},{"startTime":1195.234,"endTime":1198.724,"body":"and structure and how evaluation plays into that."},{"startTime":1198.974,"endTime":1203.655,"body":"So all of that wrapped together is what I call a grading model."},{"startTime":1203.814,"endTime":1205.844,"body":"The dominant grading models in higher"},{"startTime":1205.854,"endTime":1208.885,"body":"education today are traditional grading models."},{"startTime":1208.895,"endTime":1210.885,"body":"And what that means is often"},{"startTime":1211.27,"endTime":1215.819,"body":"one assignment gets a grade and those grades are"},{"startTime":1215.829,"endTime":1219.089,"body":"then averaged together at the end of the semester uh"},{"startTime":1219.099,"endTime":1222.569,"body":"into another grade that there is often very little"},{"startTime":1222.579,"endTime":1227.209,"body":"room for correcting errors or revising along the way."},{"startTime":1227.43,"endTime":1227.81,"body":"And"},{"startTime":1228.189,"endTime":1230.76,"body":"often, but not always often,"},{"startTime":1230.91,"endTime":1234.78,"body":"uh a limited amount of feedback that attends the grade"},{"startTime":1234.79,"endTime":1237.02,"body":"that goes along with the grade on the assignment."},{"startTime":1237.229,"endTime":1238.739,"body":"The newer models,"},{"startTime":1238.75,"endTime":1244.459,"body":"the alternative grading models that seek to put more of the spotlight on learning,"},{"startTime":1245.51,"endTime":1248.729,"body":"uh often share a number of qualities."},{"startTime":1248.739,"endTime":1253.369,"body":"One is lots of feedback, lots of student self assessment,"},{"startTime":1253.469,"endTime":1257.969,"body":"multiple means and multiple opportunities for demonstrating learning."},{"startTime":1257.979,"endTime":1259.199,"body":"So there's not just"},{"startTime":1259.42,"endTime":1261.68,"body":"uh you have this exam and that's your shot."},{"startTime":1261.689,"endTime":1264.75,"body":"And if you blow your shot, you have to just move on, right?"},{"startTime":1265.469,"endTime":1269.17,"body":"So multiple ways and, and opportunities for showing that"},{"startTime":1269.42,"endTime":1273.78,"body":"that's the M and M model of education, you only get one shot."},{"startTime":1276.39,"endTime":1276.569,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1276.709,"endTime":1278.76,"body":"And you know, I'm going to digress further"},{"startTime":1279.04,"endTime":1281.599,"body":"because with the Eminem model,"},{"startTime":1281.88,"endTime":1285.599,"body":"that song is you only get one shot. Do not miss your chance to blow."},{"startTime":1285.829,"endTime":1288.91,"body":"But that song then should be like 25 seconds long,"},{"startTime":1289.109,"endTime":1291.25,"body":"but it's 3.5 minutes because the,"},{"startTime":1291.26,"endTime":1294.18,"body":"the message of the song is if you keep persisting and"},{"startTime":1294.189,"endTime":1297.239,"body":"trying and you'll just keep working and getting better and you,"},{"startTime":1297.609,"endTime":1300.479,"body":"you'll have another shot that you can then take. So"},{"startTime":1300.589,"endTime":1301.13,"body":"that"},{"startTime":1301.239,"endTime":1302.949,"body":"I don't know if that's ironic"},{"startTime":1303.079,"endTime":1305.01,"body":"that Eminem says you only get one shot,"},{"startTime":1305.02,"endTime":1308.189,"body":"but then he talks about multiple shots throughout the song or what?"},{"startTime":1308.199,"endTime":1310.229,"body":"-- That's a total digression."},{"startTime":1308.199,"endTime":1310.229,"body":"-- I love. It"},{"startTime":1311.75,"endTime":1312.069,"body":"is great."},{"startTime":1312.199,"endTime":1312.43,"body":"That,"},{"startTime":1312.64,"endTime":1313.43,"body":"that's great."},{"startTime":1316.14,"endTime":1318.199,"body":"I'm sorry, I derailed your"},{"startTime":1318.599,"endTime":1318.939,"body":"-- not at"},{"startTime":1318.599,"endTime":1318.939,"body":"-- all"},{"startTime":1319.28,"endTime":1319.31,"body":"on"},{"startTime":1319.64,"endTime":1319.66,"body":"the"},{"startTime":1320.05,"endTime":1320.359,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1321.91,"endTime":1324.65,"body":"So my doctoral research is focused on"},{"startTime":1324.66,"endTime":1327.199,"body":"student perceptions of un grading pedagogies."},{"startTime":1327.209,"endTime":1328.959,"body":"And you've started to hint there"},{"startTime":1329.089,"endTime":1331.969,"body":"and having read part of your book last night,"},{"startTime":1332.219,"endTime":1336.25,"body":"maybe I should not call them un grading pedagogies, but collaborative grading"},{"startTime":1336.459,"endTime":1339.05,"body":"approaches. Um And so"},{"startTime":1339.579,"endTime":1341.119,"body":"I'm interested in"},{"startTime":1341.329,"endTime":1345.29,"body":"understanding unpacking how those classroom practices"},{"startTime":1345.489,"endTime":1349.939,"body":"affect a student's intrinsic motivation. And so first,"},{"startTime":1350.119,"endTime":1353.56,"body":"how would you define un grading?"},{"startTime":1353.89,"endTime":1357.43,"body":"And then I guess more to the point, how would you"},{"startTime":1357.75,"endTime":1359.64,"body":"differentiate that"},{"startTime":1359.859,"endTime":1363.0,"body":"from what you describe as collaborative grading?"},{"startTime":1363.439,"endTime":1364.3,"body":"And then"},{"startTime":1364.449,"endTime":1367.26,"body":"what can you tell us about grades"},{"startTime":1367.4,"endTime":1372.14,"body":"as motivators? You talked about how like extrinsically"},{"startTime":1372.5,"endTime":1374.329,"body":"they do things,"},{"startTime":1374.469,"endTime":1374.979,"body":"but"},{"startTime":1375.13,"endTime":1376.099,"body":"what is"},{"startTime":1376.31,"endTime":1378.979,"body":"a shift to intrinsic motivation"},{"startTime":1379.329,"endTime":1381.579,"body":"look like? And what does that lead to?"},{"startTime":1382.739,"endTime":1385.619,"body":"So un grading is a a really"},{"startTime":1385.959,"endTime":1388.18,"body":"exciting and important term."},{"startTime":1388.189,"endTime":1392.319,"body":"There's no denying the importance of that term for rhetorically"},{"startTime":1392.5,"endTime":1397.489,"body":"driving part of the conversation about grading reform over the last 10 years."},{"startTime":1397.699,"endTime":1399.449,"body":"Like so many"},{"startTime":1399.949,"endTime":1402.05,"body":"of uh of our academic terms,"},{"startTime":1402.06,"endTime":1406.339,"body":"active learning is one that's very similar uh meant a specific thing."},{"startTime":1406.349,"endTime":1411.449,"body":"And now it means a lot of things un grading is very, is, has had a similar trajectory."},{"startTime":1411.75,"endTime":1412.38,"body":"So"},{"startTime":1412.5,"endTime":1417.91,"body":"I have found that when people use that term, they mean one of three things, they,"},{"startTime":1417.92,"endTime":1418.849,"body":"they mean"},{"startTime":1419.03,"endTime":1423.859,"body":"a specific model of, of grading which we'll talk about in a second,"},{"startTime":1424.199,"endTime":1428.39,"body":"they mean the philosophy of getting rid of grades altogether"},{"startTime":1428.52,"endTime":1430.06,"body":"or they mean"},{"startTime":1430.43,"endTime":1435.03,"body":"the collection of alternative grading models."},{"startTime":1435.04,"endTime":1440.63,"body":"And so I use alternative grading models rather than un grading uh simply to"},{"startTime":1440.93,"endTime":1442.989,"body":"differentiate. And"},{"startTime":1443.369,"endTime":1447.51,"body":"I like un grading as a term for the philosophy. I think we should keep it."},{"startTime":1447.52,"endTime":1449.989,"body":"And I, I think it's useful in that way,"},{"startTime":1450.29,"endTime":1455.089,"body":"the specific model that uh uh that has been labeled un"},{"startTime":1455.099,"endTime":1457.63,"body":"grading in the past I used in my own courses."},{"startTime":1457.64,"endTime":1464.199,"body":"It is uh it is by far one of the more progressive grading grading schemes,"},{"startTime":1464.209,"endTime":1465.52,"body":"some would call it"},{"startTime":1465.699,"endTime":1467.459,"body":"maybe a little um"},{"startTime":1468.0,"endTime":1470.68,"body":"extreme. But uh so"},{"startTime":1471.069,"endTime":1471.81,"body":"the way on"},{"startTime":1472.05,"endTime":1476.449,"body":"that model works is there are no grades given throughout the semester."},{"startTime":1476.459,"endTime":1480.959,"body":"Students get a lot of feedback and they do a lot of self assessment along the way"},{"startTime":1481.53,"endTime":1487.579,"body":"at the end of the semester, using a ton of evidence from their, their coursework,"},{"startTime":1487.63,"endTime":1490.0,"body":"they propose a final grade"},{"startTime":1490.219,"endTime":1493.329,"body":"and then they meet with the instructor in a conference"},{"startTime":1493.339,"endTime":1497.699,"body":"to kind of negotiate that grade based on the proposal."},{"startTime":1497.709,"endTime":1501.16,"body":"And that's the grade that they and goes uh goes in the grade book."},{"startTime":1501.17,"endTime":1504.91,"body":"Now, does everyone just say well, hey, I got an a"},{"startTime":1505.05,"endTime":1505.969,"body":"no, no,"},{"startTime":1505.979,"endTime":1509.339,"body":"surprisingly because you've built up so much trust and they've done so"},{"startTime":1509.349,"endTime":1514.66,"body":"much reflection and evaluating over the term if it's working correctly."},{"startTime":1514.719,"endTime":1515.89,"body":"In fact, there,"},{"startTime":1516.459,"endTime":1517.839,"body":"the worry"},{"startTime":1518.099,"endTime":1520.29,"body":"that I have heard is that people will give"},{"startTime":1520.3,"endTime":1523.41,"body":"themselves a but the reality that I have seen and"},{"startTime":1523.42,"endTime":1526.54,"body":"others who tried this is the more common problem"},{"startTime":1526.55,"endTime":1529.03,"body":"is not that people are grading themselves too high."},{"startTime":1529.239,"endTime":1531.93,"body":"In fact, I've only had two cases of that the whole time."},{"startTime":1532.04,"endTime":1535.28,"body":"It's that good students are grading themselves too low."},{"startTime":1535.699,"endTime":1535.719,"body":"Uh,"},{"startTime":1535.729,"endTime":1542.619,"body":"and especially women and minoritized students who receive lots of messages about,"},{"startTime":1542.63,"endTime":1544.459,"body":"about grades and their"},{"startTime":1544.77,"endTime":1550.359,"body":"performance. So then what you do in that conference, it becomes a way of,"},{"startTime":1550.609,"endTime":1555.06,"body":"uh, it becomes a means of talking to them about their, about"},{"startTime":1555.28,"endTime":1557.566,"body":"the strength of the, their performance."},{"startTime":1557.576,"endTime":1563.536,"body":"Why they need to uh how they can recognize those strengths in future courses"},{"startTime":1563.745,"endTime":1568.605,"body":"and to elevate the grade that they have proposed to actually match"},{"startTime":1568.715,"endTime":1572.316,"body":"the work that they have done in the course. So it's really fascinating."},{"startTime":1572.326,"endTime":1575.725,"body":"So that's been, that's the one that's been called un grading for a long time."},{"startTime":1575.776,"endTime":1577.125,"body":"There's a movement now"},{"startTime":1577.391,"endTime":1581.212,"body":"uh to call it collaborative grading simply because"},{"startTime":1581.222,"endTime":1585.732,"body":"of this linguistic interference with UN grading and collaboration"},{"startTime":1585.842,"endTime":1589.852,"body":"is really at the heart of what is happening in this grading model."},{"startTime":1589.932,"endTime":1592.692,"body":"So uh that, that's a, that's a new movement."},{"startTime":1592.702,"endTime":1597.531,"body":"But so that's uh that's what we talk about when we talk about un grading, I think"},{"startTime":1597.651,"endTime":1598.121,"body":"um"},{"startTime":1598.79,"endTime":1604.609,"body":"if we're, if we're then moving kind of the camera lens is zooming out a little bit to"},{"startTime":1604.739,"endTime":1608.209,"body":"these alternative grading practices and how they"},{"startTime":1608.219,"endTime":1611.449,"body":"help to enhance motivation for students."},{"startTime":1612.65,"endTime":1617.069,"body":"Some of it has to do with what we talked about before in that"},{"startTime":1617.18,"endTime":1623.31,"body":"you are allowing students more time to learn at their own pace."},{"startTime":1623.319,"endTime":1626.109,"body":"So learning is a deeply complex process."},{"startTime":1626.119,"endTime":1629.829,"body":"Students learn concepts in different ways at different times"},{"startTime":1630.069,"endTime":1632.51,"body":"and traditional grading processes kind of"},{"startTime":1632.66,"endTime":1634.14,"body":"penalize students"},{"startTime":1634.25,"endTime":1639.51,"body":"who would have otherwise learned the concept very effectively by the end of the"},{"startTime":1639.651,"endTime":1644.222,"body":"semester for not learning it at a particular point in the semester."},{"startTime":1644.281,"endTime":1648.911,"body":"And so try to open up space and that's motivating for students that they,"},{"startTime":1649.041,"endTime":1653.832,"body":"that they are going to have the best chance for success for themselves. So"},{"startTime":1654.401,"endTime":1655.832,"body":"that's one way to do it, you know,"},{"startTime":1655.842,"endTime":1659.421,"body":"something like standards based grading or specifications, grading,"},{"startTime":1659.572,"endTime":1662.472,"body":"the grade is not based on how well you do in an exam."},{"startTime":1662.482,"endTime":1666.552,"body":"It's based on how many of the standards you have met over the course of the"},{"startTime":1666.654,"endTime":1668.534,"body":"semester, for example, right."},{"startTime":1669.004,"endTime":1669.943,"body":"So giving,"},{"startTime":1669.953,"endTime":1673.793,"body":"giving that space relieving the pressure valve is"},{"startTime":1673.843,"endTime":1677.193,"body":"uh it allows for more intrinsic motivation."},{"startTime":1677.404,"endTime":1679.774,"body":"You can explore topics that interest you,"},{"startTime":1679.843,"endTime":1684.913,"body":"you can try out a completely wild idea about something and you know,"},{"startTime":1684.923,"endTime":1688.793,"body":"it could go somewhere or, or not, but you're not penalized for it,"},{"startTime":1688.803,"endTime":1690.394,"body":"not going anywhere, right?"},{"startTime":1690.404,"endTime":1692.073,"body":"That's part of the learning process."},{"startTime":1692.244,"endTime":1693.573,"body":"Another way that they're motivated."},{"startTime":1693.656,"endTime":1694.036,"body":"I didn't know,"},{"startTime":1694.046,"endTime":1696.156,"body":"I think this is important and something I see"},{"startTime":1696.166,"endTime":1699.416,"body":"with the un grading collaborative grading in particular,"},{"startTime":1699.605,"endTime":1704.316,"body":"there is a lot students are granted a lot of agency"},{"startTime":1704.526,"endTime":1709.115,"body":"in their own learning process in, in many of these models. So,"},{"startTime":1709.345,"endTime":1709.556,"body":"you know,"},{"startTime":1709.566,"endTime":1714.625,"body":"they have a lot of say in reflecting on their work and and how they"},{"startTime":1714.635,"endTime":1717.865,"body":"believe that they contributed to the class over"},{"startTime":1717.875,"endTime":1720.595,"body":"time and what ultimately they have learned."},{"startTime":1720.855,"endTime":1722.276,"body":"And I think the,"},{"startTime":1722.709,"endTime":1726.75,"body":"the way American educational systems and other educational"},{"startTime":1726.76,"endTime":1729.689,"body":"systems to be frank uh have been set up"},{"startTime":1729.699,"endTime":1735.199,"body":"has really been to put students in a position"},{"startTime":1735.219,"endTime":1737.77,"body":"where they don't feel like they have any control"},{"startTime":1737.885,"endTime":1742.425,"body":"over what happens to them in school and, and what their, what their fates,"},{"startTime":1742.435,"endTime":1744.155,"body":"their academic fates will be."},{"startTime":1744.375,"endTime":1749.165,"body":"And by allowing room for that, by giving them agency by giving them"},{"startTime":1750.135,"endTime":1752.944,"body":"by collaborating with them on this journey."},{"startTime":1753.29,"endTime":1756.949,"body":"It is uh it is very motivating for them."},{"startTime":1756.959,"endTime":1760.849,"body":"So some of the comments I've had just in my own classes, you know, let alone"},{"startTime":1761.06,"endTime":1764.92,"body":"the hundreds and thousands of other people are trying this are,"},{"startTime":1765.079,"endTime":1768.979,"body":"I felt like because I was being treated like an adult"},{"startTime":1769.02,"endTime":1771.51,"body":"that it was on me to live up to that,"},{"startTime":1771.52,"endTime":1771.869,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":1771.88,"endTime":1776.17,"body":"That so it was uh it was really empowering and motivating, I think in,"},{"startTime":1776.18,"endTime":1777.75,"body":"in some of these systems for them."},{"startTime":1778.209,"endTime":1780.969,"body":"That's awesome. I really appreciate that insight."},{"startTime":1780.979,"endTime":1785.939,"body":"And it is interesting also the the differentiation between"},{"startTime":1786.14,"endTime":1787.91,"body":"sort of how we're labeling"},{"startTime":1788.239,"endTime":1789.709,"body":"what we're talking about."},{"startTime":1789.719,"endTime":1793.79,"body":"When we talk about un grading, it is a very, it's a broad umbrella term."},{"startTime":1793.8,"endTime":1794.91,"body":"And as you pointed out,"},{"startTime":1794.92,"endTime":1799.15,"body":"it's used in a couple of different ways depending on who's talking about it and,"},{"startTime":1799.16,"endTime":1802.79,"body":"and how and so having more precise language I think is,"},{"startTime":1802.8,"endTime":1806.25,"body":"is helpful both to invite people into the conversation."},{"startTime":1806.26,"endTime":1807.229,"body":"But then also to"},{"startTime":1807.334,"endTime":1810.954,"body":"further the conversation because we can be more specific"},{"startTime":1810.964,"endTime":1813.454,"body":"about this is what's happening in the classroom."},{"startTime":1813.464,"endTime":1817.875,"body":"This is the overall overarching philosophical approach, et cetera."},{"startTime":1818.275,"endTime":1818.655,"body":"So"},{"startTime":1819.234,"endTime":1823.395,"body":"I have a couple of more questions and time is flying by."},{"startTime":1823.405,"endTime":1826.305,"body":"So I appreciate you being here so much."},{"startTime":1826.979,"endTime":1829.8,"body":"You address the mental health crisis that"},{"startTime":1829.81,"endTime":1832.04,"body":"students are experiencing in the United States,"},{"startTime":1832.05,"endTime":1832.719,"body":"at least"},{"startTime":1833.04,"endTime":1839.42,"body":"in a full chapter of the book. And so you hinted at the kind of stress that grades"},{"startTime":1839.55,"endTime":1842.319,"body":"add to and are playing a role in."},{"startTime":1843.42,"endTime":1848.579,"body":"What role do you think grades and grading are playing in that crisis?"},{"startTime":1848.729,"endTime":1850.739,"body":"And what are ways that"},{"startTime":1851.01,"endTime":1853.26,"body":"you either talk about parents or"},{"startTime":1853.4,"endTime":1855.29,"body":"as administrators?"},{"startTime":1855.469,"endTime":1858.459,"body":"What are things that we can do"},{"startTime":1858.619,"endTime":1863.68,"body":"to, as you just mentioned, sort of press that relief valve for and,"},{"startTime":1863.689,"endTime":1866.02,"body":"and let out some of the pressure."},{"startTime":1867.25,"endTime":1867.819,"body":"So"},{"startTime":1868.25,"endTime":1871.974,"body":"grades create this pressure cooker for students,"},{"startTime":1872.344,"endTime":1874.165,"body":"you know, especially in higher ed."},{"startTime":1874.175,"endTime":1878.104,"body":"Everything's riding on that for them, their career, their uh"},{"startTime":1878.255,"endTime":1880.885,"body":"their grad school, med school, law school,"},{"startTime":1880.895,"endTime":1886.165,"body":"the possible futures that lay beyond the walls of college are"},{"startTime":1886.175,"endTime":1890.155,"body":"all kind of gate kept by the grades that they get."},{"startTime":1890.165,"endTime":1890.724,"body":"And"},{"startTime":1891.055,"endTime":1892.314,"body":"when they come to college,"},{"startTime":1892.324,"endTime":1898.604,"body":"they've also had 12 years of the kinds of pressures that the grades bring with them."},{"startTime":1898.959,"endTime":1903.819,"body":"And when you combine that reality with the fact that"},{"startTime":1904.119,"endTime":1905.819,"body":"college students,"},{"startTime":1906.199,"endTime":1907.79,"body":"newly adults are"},{"startTime":1907.91,"endTime":1911.16,"body":"on their own for the first time,"},{"startTime":1911.17,"endTime":1915.05,"body":"many of them who are now protected by things like Ferpa"},{"startTime":1915.18,"endTime":1915.739,"body":"and HP"},{"startTime":1915.91,"endTime":1915.989,"body":"A"},{"startTime":1916.109,"endTime":1921.3,"body":"where they, they don't have the same support structures that they had, that,"},{"startTime":1921.31,"endTime":1922.739,"body":"that many of them had"},{"startTime":1922.859,"endTime":1927.78,"body":"uh when they were in high school, all of that wrapped together means that"},{"startTime":1928.115,"endTime":1929.115,"body":"students,"},{"startTime":1929.265,"endTime":1932.436,"body":"that the grades and the pressures that grades"},{"startTime":1932.446,"endTime":1935.776,"body":"bring with them are elevated for college students."},{"startTime":1936.076,"endTime":1942.806,"body":"And so what we see in the surveys and reports like the healthy minds, uh survey, our"},{"startTime":1943.265,"endTime":1948.176,"body":"university just got just reported on the data uh for for last year."},{"startTime":1948.186,"endTime":1949.526,"body":"And so we were looking at that,"},{"startTime":1949.635,"endTime":1952.975,"body":"but what you see is that grades and academic stress are"},{"startTime":1952.985,"endTime":1956.956,"body":"always rated at the very top or near the top of"},{"startTime":1957.271,"endTime":1961.362,"body":"the stressors that are connected to students, self"},{"startTime":1961.472,"endTime":1964.171,"body":"reported, anxiety, depression,"},{"startTime":1964.182,"endTime":1967.641,"body":"et cetera that when they are asked what is happening,"},{"startTime":1967.972,"endTime":1971.322,"body":"grades and academic stress are at the very top of the list."},{"startTime":1971.722,"endTime":1972.271,"body":"And"},{"startTime":1972.432,"endTime":1975.411,"body":"you know, I'm not going to say that grades are causing it all,"},{"startTime":1975.421,"endTime":1978.052,"body":"but they are definitely a contributing factor"},{"startTime":1978.062,"endTime":1980.572,"body":"because students themselves are telling us that"},{"startTime":1981.182,"endTime":1986.332,"body":"and that's what the research on college students is showing in tandem with that."},{"startTime":1986.729,"endTime":1990.189,"body":"So what can, what can institutions do?"},{"startTime":1990.3,"endTime":1995.75,"body":"I am actually pretty critical of our higher ed institutions in this chapter."},{"startTime":1996.04,"endTime":2001.38,"body":"Take more. II I try to be very balanced in a lot of my assessments. But"},{"startTime":2001.76,"endTime":2003.969,"body":"for the most part, when it comes to mental health,"},{"startTime":2003.979,"endTime":2007.209,"body":"colleges and universities are reactive"},{"startTime":2007.359,"endTime":2008.78,"body":"and not proactive"},{"startTime":2009.06,"endTime":2012.14,"body":"that it often takes something serious to happen"},{"startTime":2012.27,"endTime":2016.93,"body":"before there is significant discussion about how the"},{"startTime":2016.939,"endTime":2021.25,"body":"institution can help with the mental health crisis."},{"startTime":2021.56,"endTime":2023.65,"body":"So when it comes to grades,"},{"startTime":2023.66,"endTime":2028.505,"body":"I think that administrators and faculty at the very least need to sit"},{"startTime":2028.515,"endTime":2035.625,"body":"down and talk about how the academic part of the college experience is contributing"},{"startTime":2035.775,"endTime":2041.214,"body":"to the mental health crisis. What what often happens is"},{"startTime":2041.494,"endTime":2041.925,"body":"that"},{"startTime":2042.114,"endTime":2046.484,"body":"the academic piece of this gets taken as a given"},{"startTime":2046.77,"endTime":2050.149,"body":"that obviously, this is what happens in classrooms."},{"startTime":2050.159,"endTime":2056.469,"body":"We're not going to touch that we have to just provide support on the outside,"},{"startTime":2056.478,"endTime":2058.989,"body":"on the margins of the academic experience"},{"startTime":2059.159,"endTime":2062.75,"body":"to help bolster the students to get through that."},{"startTime":2063.31,"endTime":2066.1,"body":"We're, we're bolstering the walls from outside,"},{"startTime":2066.11,"endTime":2069.228,"body":"but we're not putting out the fire that's inside the building."},{"startTime":2069.645,"endTime":2073.985,"body":"We never look at that and there are all kinds of reasons, of course, why that is true,"},{"startTime":2073.995,"endTime":2075.264,"body":"why we don't look at that?"},{"startTime":2075.274,"endTime":2081.094,"body":"But we need to. And so at the very least if institutions could have that conversation"},{"startTime":2081.284,"endTime":2083.264,"body":"using some of this research,"},{"startTime":2083.274,"endTime":2086.495,"body":"I think that would be a really important step in the right direction."},{"startTime":2086.685,"endTime":2091.583,"body":"Having folks in the provost office, the registrar's office, uh admissions"},{"startTime":2091.882,"endTime":2092.802,"body":"talk about"},{"startTime":2093.062,"endTime":2096.302,"body":"the uh the possibilities of different ways"},{"startTime":2096.312,"endTime":2098.812,"body":"of grading different kinds of transcripts."},{"startTime":2098.822,"endTime":2102.541,"body":"I mean, just to be open to thinking about possibilities,"},{"startTime":2102.552,"endTime":2105.172,"body":"I think is really helpful as well."},{"startTime":2105.362,"endTime":2109.701,"body":"But to change the kind of culture of the of the discussion"},{"startTime":2109.711,"endTime":2114.332,"body":"about academics as well to being a uh to move from."},{"startTime":2114.76,"endTime":2118.939,"body":"What did you get in this class? How are you doing to, what did you learn?"},{"startTime":2118.949,"endTime":2121.159,"body":"What was exciting? What is interesting?"},{"startTime":2121.34,"endTime":2121.919,"body":"You know, I,"},{"startTime":2121.929,"endTime":2125.719,"body":"I uh what I remember fondly from George Mason was the"},{"startTime":2125.729,"endTime":2130.419,"body":"undergraduate research initiatives that uh that uh we worked on with uh"},{"startTime":2130.55,"endTime":2136.31,"body":"with that office. That it's fascinating because it was, everything was focused on."},{"startTime":2136.35,"endTime":2141.3,"body":"What cool project are you working on? Not, what grade did you get on it?"},{"startTime":2141.31,"endTime":2143.75,"body":"And that's really a shift that"},{"startTime":2143.959,"endTime":2147.739,"body":"the entire campus needs to work on together to me."},{"startTime":2147.86,"endTime":2150.28,"body":"So those are the kinds of things I think we need to see"},{"startTime":2150.79,"endTime":2150.939,"body":"right on."},{"startTime":2151.52,"endTime":2153.6,"body":"Speaking of possibilities. Now,"},{"startTime":2153.929,"endTime":2157.439,"body":"you're on a registrar focus podcast. We're talking about grades."},{"startTime":2157.85,"endTime":2164.79,"body":"So the idea of getting rid of grades strikes deeply at the core of what registrars do"},{"startTime":2164.899,"endTime":2169.27,"body":"we maintain the student record, we enforce registration restrictions,"},{"startTime":2169.28,"endTime":2174.989,"body":"we calculate and run academic standing based on term and cumulative GPA S."},{"startTime":2175.189,"endTime":2180.85,"body":"We enforce academic policies on probation suspension dismissal based on GPA S"},{"startTime":2181.05,"endTime":2184.09,"body":"and we award degrees only after confirming that"},{"startTime":2184.1,"endTime":2186.639,"body":"a student has met a minimum GPA standard."},{"startTime":2186.939,"endTime":2188.919,"body":"And we're responsible for the transcript,"},{"startTime":2188.929,"endTime":2192.81,"body":"not just maintaining our own current students transcripts,"},{"startTime":2192.959,"endTime":2197.12,"body":"but as I mentioned before, literally a group of registrars got together,"},{"startTime":2197.129,"endTime":2201.04,"body":"we're responsible for the design in the transcript in the"},{"startTime":2201.05,"endTime":2204.12,"body":"early 19 hundreds and it hasn't changed much since then."},{"startTime":2204.489,"endTime":2208.139,"body":"So getting rid of grades as an idea rocks"},{"startTime":2208.149,"endTime":2211.28,"body":"the boat for us a little bit as professionals."},{"startTime":2211.59,"endTime":2213.81,"body":"So what do you think"},{"startTime":2213.969,"endTime":2215.729,"body":"will take the place"},{"startTime":2215.86,"endTime":2218.01,"body":"of letter grades or GPA S?"},{"startTime":2218.229,"endTime":2222.07,"body":"How will institutions be able to track student participation,"},{"startTime":2222.08,"endTime":2224.02,"body":"performance or completion"},{"startTime":2224.179,"endTime":2226.129,"body":"in the absence of grades?"},{"startTime":2226.52,"endTime":2226.77,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2227.32,"endTime":2230.729,"body":"Well, so let's talk about the ideal and then the reality,"},{"startTime":2230.739,"endTime":2234.959,"body":"I think the ideal is that there are grade colleges that exist."},{"startTime":2234.969,"endTime":2235.969,"body":"Uh The ones that"},{"startTime":2236.11,"endTime":2239.709,"body":"the one that I feature in the book is Evergreen State in White"},{"startTime":2240.52,"endTime":2243.389,"body":"uh who uses in they have no grades whatsoever."},{"startTime":2243.399,"endTime":2246.679,"body":"They use entirely narrative based transcripts"},{"startTime":2246.899,"endTime":2252.899,"body":"as uh as you well know, uh it's a process where the last week of every term,"},{"startTime":2252.989,"endTime":2256.189,"body":"the faculty are writing these lengthy uh reflections"},{"startTime":2256.199,"endTime":2258.27,"body":"and and reports and meeting with students and"},{"startTime":2258.28,"endTime":2263.26,"body":"then uh an excerpt of that goes in the transcript along with the student's response."},{"startTime":2263.27,"endTime":2266.56,"body":"And that is, that's a very different type of transcript, it"},{"startTime":2267.008,"endTime":2267.157,"body":"as a"},{"startTime":2267.258,"endTime":2271.048,"body":"different amount of work and lots of different metrics"},{"startTime":2271.058,"endTime":2275.218,"body":"and frameworks for what to do with that."},{"startTime":2275.268,"endTime":2276.587,"body":"So I think"},{"startTime":2276.778,"endTime":2280.887,"body":"there are models, there are possibilities for where we might go."},{"startTime":2281.147,"endTime":2284.407,"body":"But we are in a moment right now."},{"startTime":2284.417,"endTime":2288.127,"body":"I think where we cannot wave a magic wand and all"},{"startTime":2288.137,"endTime":2292.847,"body":"4000 institutions of higher learning in America suddenly shift to the"},{"startTime":2293.055,"endTime":2293.095,"body":"Green"},{"startTime":2293.315,"endTime":2295.875,"body":"State Hampshire New College Model."},{"startTime":2296.186,"endTime":2301.236,"body":"So I think what uh you know, the the goal the world that we're in right now,"},{"startTime":2301.246,"endTime":2304.045,"body":"the conversation about grading reform is about reorienting"},{"startTime":2304.055,"endTime":2307.956,"body":"students experience with grades using these new models."},{"startTime":2308.055,"endTime":2308.926,"body":"And so"},{"startTime":2309.065,"endTime":2315.875,"body":"I think that a great step from my perspective would be if institutions were,"},{"startTime":2315.885,"endTime":2319.016,"body":"were communicating the faculty that not only"},{"startTime":2319.025,"endTime":2321.934,"body":"were they open to experimentation with grading,"},{"startTime":2322.093,"endTime":2325.384,"body":"but that they actually encouraged it and incentivized"},{"startTime":2325.394,"endTime":2328.263,"body":"it in the promotion and tenure process."},{"startTime":2328.543,"endTime":2333.023,"body":"So that would, that would be a big step forward. I think toward"},{"startTime":2333.174,"endTime":2339.964,"body":"making change on a more systemic level from the registrar's office point of view."},{"startTime":2340.214,"endTime":2343.914,"body":"I, you know, the, the kinds of experimentation with a"},{"startTime":2344.164,"endTime":2345.483,"body":"select"},{"startTime":2345.822,"endTime":2350.862,"body":"of pass fail courses or the opportunity to cover grades, uh you know,"},{"startTime":2350.872,"endTime":2354.731,"body":"a certain number of, of, of courses for doing that."},{"startTime":2354.741,"endTime":2354.751,"body":"I"},{"startTime":2354.902,"endTime":2357.902,"body":"think thinking about solutions"},{"startTime":2358.261,"endTime":2361.491,"body":"in that vein from the registrar's office and,"},{"startTime":2361.501,"endTime":2365.771,"body":"and maybe proposing them offering them up to the campus community."},{"startTime":2366.132,"endTime":2371.731,"body":"There was a period of time when institutions wouldn't show students their grades."},{"startTime":2372.149,"endTime":2378.37,"body":"And that was because they wanted to minimize the competition between students."},{"startTime":2378.58,"endTime":2379.81,"body":"And so there are,"},{"startTime":2379.82,"endTime":2382.929,"body":"there have been conversations about what do we do about the transcript?"},{"startTime":2382.939,"endTime":2383.29,"body":"And"},{"startTime":2383.409,"endTime":2387.05,"body":"can we suppress things or can we add information to the,"},{"startTime":2387.06,"endTime":2391.209,"body":"to the transcript to give whoever's receiving it a better sense of like, oh,"},{"startTime":2391.219,"endTime":2392.05,"body":"this student got"},{"startTime":2392.82,"endTime":2397.0,"body":"that's above the average for the class or? So that's a good grade."},{"startTime":2397.02,"endTime":2400.06,"body":"You know, that's not a, that's not a failing grade and,"},{"startTime":2400.169,"endTime":2404.689,"body":"you know, sort of level setting. And so I, I think that's a really interesting"},{"startTime":2404.86,"endTime":2410.209,"body":"suggestion and approach to, to reinvigorate that conversation from a"},{"startTime":2410.479,"endTime":2412.129,"body":"what do we do about grades"},{"startTime":2412.469,"endTime":2414.669,"body":"uh scenario rather than just like,"},{"startTime":2414.679,"endTime":2418.77,"body":"how do we make the transmission of this data more efficient,"},{"startTime":2419.34,"endTime":2419.659,"body":"you know,"},{"startTime":2419.79,"endTime":2421.489,"body":"institution to institution?"},{"startTime":2422.35,"endTime":2423.01,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":2423.429,"endTime":2426.09,"body":"I want to ask one more thing and then we'll,"},{"startTime":2426.1,"endTime":2429.919,"body":"we'll throw this out uh in the structure of scientific revolutions."},{"startTime":2430.1,"endTime":2433.729,"body":"Thomas Kuhn argues that scientific progress isn't the"},{"startTime":2433.739,"endTime":2436.54,"body":"result of sort of slow accumulation of knowledge."},{"startTime":2436.55,"endTime":2439.209,"body":"But we operate more in sort of an episodic"},{"startTime":2439.37,"endTime":2442.129,"body":"model where periods of normal science are"},{"startTime":2442.139,"endTime":2446.01,"body":"disrupted by periods of revolutionary science that's"},{"startTime":2446.129,"endTime":2450.81,"body":"then known as a a paradigmatic shift. The paradigm shift,"},{"startTime":2451.409,"endTime":2455.03,"body":"your book joins voices of others who have"},{"startTime":2455.04,"endTime":2458.5,"body":"articulated serious concerns about what grades are doing"},{"startTime":2458.879,"endTime":2462.989,"body":"to our students, to our learners here in the 21st century."},{"startTime":2463.28,"endTime":2466.909,"body":"So what do you think it will take to spur on"},{"startTime":2467.37,"endTime":2469.429,"body":"this paradigmatic shift"},{"startTime":2469.629,"endTime":2472.389,"body":"in higher education to move us past"},{"startTime":2472.6,"endTime":2475.879,"body":"the A through F interval letter grade scheme?"},{"startTime":2476.0,"endTime":2478.55,"body":"And what does whatever comes next"},{"startTime":2478.899,"endTime":2480.75,"body":"look like to you?"},{"startTime":2481.239,"endTime":2482.149,"body":"That's the"},{"startTime":2482.419,"endTime":2486.989,"body":"-- $24 question."},{"startTime":2482.419,"endTime":2486.989,"body":"-- Yeah. Are you excited about this one? So um"},{"startTime":2487.31,"endTime":2490.61,"body":"there are, if you look historically, there are three"},{"startTime":2491.06,"endTime":2494.11,"body":"major periods of grading reform"},{"startTime":2494.3,"endTime":2500.149,"body":"in America, one in the 19 tens when people saw the tidal wave beginning to approach."},{"startTime":2500.159,"endTime":2500.75,"body":"And so"},{"startTime":2501.04,"endTime":2504.05,"body":"uh there are these two guys who are just writing article"},{"startTime":2504.06,"endTime":2508.77,"body":"after article trying to say grades are not objective measurements and"},{"startTime":2508.919,"endTime":2512.02,"body":"you can just hear them shouting into the void. But"},{"startTime":2512.199,"endTime":2514.979,"body":"so that was one, the sixties and seventies, you know,"},{"startTime":2514.989,"endTime":2518.419,"body":"when lots of other kinds of social movements were happening,"},{"startTime":2518.429,"endTime":2522.419,"body":"grading reform was a major, a major player in that."},{"startTime":2522.699,"endTime":2525.34,"body":"And right now and the difference between now"},{"startTime":2525.35,"endTime":2527.86,"body":"and those two other periods is technology,"},{"startTime":2528.149,"endTime":2533.129,"body":"the uh the role of social media and other ways of communicating,"},{"startTime":2533.139,"endTime":2538.06,"body":"to bring together a community of people who are experimenting in this way."},{"startTime":2538.189,"endTime":2539.409,"body":"So it's gathered,"},{"startTime":2539.62,"endTime":2541.489,"body":"you know, in those other two times,"},{"startTime":2541.5,"endTime":2544.33,"body":"the snowball has gotten to the top of the hill and melted."},{"startTime":2544.35,"endTime":2547.35,"body":"But this time, it actually has gotten tipped over the hill."},{"startTime":2547.36,"endTime":2553.409,"body":"And so you can see it gathering speed and mass uh over the last five years especially."},{"startTime":2553.59,"endTime":2556.83,"body":"And one of the things that you could not have ever predicted"},{"startTime":2556.939,"endTime":2558.344,"body":"that would have driven,"},{"startTime":2558.354,"endTime":2563.274,"body":"that would have driven this forward so quickly was COVID actually that"},{"startTime":2563.735,"endTime":2565.064,"body":"overnight,"},{"startTime":2565.165,"endTime":2571.685,"body":"seemingly many institutions changed their grading policy at like snap of a finger,"},{"startTime":2571.695,"endTime":2572.114,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":2572.764,"endTime":2574.415,"body":"Some went to all pass,"},{"startTime":2574.425,"endTime":2578.125,"body":"fail some like my own allowed students to cover a"},{"startTime":2578.135,"endTime":2580.905,"body":"failing grade or a grade that they weren't happy with."},{"startTime":2581.135,"endTime":2585.675,"body":"And then of course, many went back as soon as that semester was over. But"},{"startTime":2586.074,"endTime":2586.705,"body":"that"},{"startTime":2587.32,"endTime":2591.58,"body":"put, that showed people what was possible and really"},{"startTime":2591.919,"endTime":2593.669,"body":"expedited the conversation."},{"startTime":2594.04,"endTime":2596.429,"body":"The institution didn't burn to the ground."},{"startTime":2596.439,"endTime":2600.649,"body":"-- It did not"},{"startTime":2596.439,"endTime":2600.649,"body":"-- when we allowed students to select an alternative"},{"startTime":2600.659,"endTime":2604.87,"body":"grade mode for classes that they'd already registered and participating in."},{"startTime":2604.879,"endTime":2605.11,"body":"And"},{"startTime":2605.429,"endTime":2607.919,"body":"so in a similar way that like"},{"startTime":2608.07,"endTime":2612.77,"body":"the number of faculty who had said prior to COVID, I will never teach online."},{"startTime":2613.54,"endTime":2619.25,"body":"We had a significant number of faculty who were after said, I don't want to come back."},{"startTime":2619.26,"endTime":2620.77,"body":"I just want to keep teaching online."},{"startTime":2621.3,"endTime":2624.689,"body":"And, and so like, these are things that we need to,"},{"startTime":2624.739,"endTime":2628.284,"body":"these are lessons from the pandemic that I think we need to cling to"},{"startTime":2628.495,"endTime":2635.185,"body":"and continue to talk about and remind people as like institutions sort of drift back"},{"startTime":2635.495,"endTime":2641.814,"body":"just out of inertia into uh the normalcy of this terrible system that"},{"startTime":2642.054,"endTime":2645.965,"body":"-- we've been operating under."},{"startTime":2642.054,"endTime":2645.965,"body":"-- Yeah. So and so what will then"},{"startTime":2646.364,"endTime":2649.125,"body":"because we are where we are now, what will then"},{"startTime":2649.675,"endTime":2654.324,"body":"drive this conversation even further to enact more systemic change."},{"startTime":2654.679,"endTime":2657.149,"body":"The framing of this book is really"},{"startTime":2657.409,"endTime":2662.439,"body":"uh really comes from my role in the teaching center and getting"},{"startTime":2662.449,"endTime":2667.899,"body":"to interact with so many different uh different people at a university,"},{"startTime":2667.909,"endTime":2669.939,"body":"administrators, faculty and students"},{"startTime":2670.229,"endTime":2671.62,"body":"and staff and"},{"startTime":2671.989,"endTime":2677.895,"body":"observing that what we need next is to have everyone on the same page"},{"startTime":2678.084,"endTime":2682.054,"body":"with what the research is showing from all these different angles."},{"startTime":2682.064,"endTime":2685.475,"body":"Because often when we are talking about the problems of grades,"},{"startTime":2685.485,"endTime":2689.675,"body":"we're talking about it from our own vantage point faculty,"},{"startTime":2689.685,"endTime":2695.745,"body":"you know what they're teaching tomorrow and policy or the student response to it,"},{"startTime":2695.754,"endTime":2696.495,"body":"that kind of thing."},{"startTime":2696.8,"endTime":2702.219,"body":"But if we can all, if we're all up to speed on the conversation,"},{"startTime":2702.229,"endTime":2704.179,"body":"all coming at it from the same place."},{"startTime":2704.189,"endTime":2710.62,"body":"I think we can really make a big strides in terms of systemic change."},{"startTime":2711.31,"endTime":2714.02,"body":"It will be interesting to see to like who"},{"startTime":2714.03,"endTime":2717.979,"body":"the first institutions will be in a similar way that"},{"startTime":2718.29,"endTime":2722.26,"body":"you know, us news and World Report college rankings"},{"startTime":2722.59,"endTime":2725.25,"body":"had held sway for so many years."},{"startTime":2725.26,"endTime":2727.57,"body":"And then suddenly a bunch of Ivy League schools were like, yeah,"},{"startTime":2727.58,"endTime":2729.79,"body":"we're not going to give you any information anymore."},{"startTime":2729.8,"endTime":2730.169,"body":"We're just"},{"startTime":2730.28,"endTime":2732.409,"body":"not not going to participate in that"},{"startTime":2732.629,"endTime":2736.479,"body":"and they can do that because they're Ivy League schools."},{"startTime":2736.489,"endTime":2741.01,"body":"But that may, that drove a conversation about what are we doing here?"},{"startTime":2741.02,"endTime":2745.229,"body":"Like, what, what is involved here and why are we all jumping through these hoops?"},{"startTime":2745.239,"endTime":2747.37,"body":"Is this really valuable? And so"},{"startTime":2747.58,"endTime":2751.689,"body":"in a similar way, like it may take a handful of"},{"startTime":2752.0,"endTime":2757.379,"body":"institutions to, to be bold and to lead in this area. And then I think that might"},{"startTime":2757.55,"endTime":2760.3,"body":"further the snowball rolling down the hill."},{"startTime":2760.51,"endTime":2763.3,"body":"Oh, I'm, I'm completely with you that,"},{"startTime":2763.76,"endTime":2767.139,"body":"you know, test optional admissions is a great example"},{"startTime":2768.129,"endTime":2768.219,"body":"and"},{"startTime":2769.11,"endTime":2772.949,"body":"sort of another one that kind of sparked by the pandemic,"},{"startTime":2772.959,"endTime":2775.055,"body":"although it had been happening a little bit before that,"},{"startTime":2775.065,"endTime":2777.635,"body":"but really sped up by the pandemic"},{"startTime":2777.766,"endTime":2781.156,"body":"and, you know, some went back now and some are holding to it."},{"startTime":2781.166,"endTime":2784.305,"body":"And so it's an interesting moment for that conversation,"},{"startTime":2784.385,"endTime":2788.716,"body":"but it has parallels as you're saying to the grading conversation as well."},{"startTime":2789.115,"endTime":2790.095,"body":"So yeah, I'm,"},{"startTime":2790.456,"endTime":2794.736,"body":"I'm really optimistic. I think we have. Uh there's a lot of hope for this."},{"startTime":2794.746,"endTime":2795.676,"body":"We just have to"},{"startTime":2795.815,"endTime":2797.095,"body":"keep pushing forward."},{"startTime":2797.422,"endTime":2797.721,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":2797.951,"endTime":2802.211,"body":"Josh, this is so fantastic and I want to echo"},{"startTime":2802.352,"endTime":2806.352,"body":"my earlier sentiments for everyone who's listening. Please pick up the book."},{"startTime":2806.362,"endTime":2810.691,"body":"It is failing our future, how grades harm students and what we can do about it."},{"startTime":2810.731,"endTime":2814.912,"body":"I put a link to the Amazon page for the book"},{"startTime":2814.922,"endTime":2819.771,"body":"on the show notes page along with Josh's contact information."},{"startTime":2820.0,"endTime":2822.179,"body":"Thank you so much for taking the time to"},{"startTime":2822.32,"endTime":2825.55,"body":"share some insight and wisdom with us"},{"startTime":2825.719,"endTime":2828.139,"body":"and I look forward to reading the rest of the book."},{"startTime":2828.669,"endTime":2830.61,"body":"Thanks, Doug, I really enjoyed talking with you."},{"startTime":2832.129,"endTime":2834.55,"body":"Thanks again to Josh Eiler for taking the time to"},{"startTime":2834.56,"endTime":2837.669,"body":"talk with me about the problem of grades and grading."},{"startTime":2837.879,"endTime":2840.459,"body":"Pick up a copy of the book or maybe give a copy of the"},{"startTime":2840.469,"endTime":2844.389,"body":"book to your Provost or Center for teaching and learning director as a present"},{"startTime":2845.06,"endTime":2847.899,"body":"grades are 200 miles of bad road."},{"startTime":2847.909,"endTime":2849.679,"body":"And if we work together,"},{"startTime":2849.719,"endTime":2851.6,"body":"we can minimize the harm that they do"},{"startTime":2851.61,"endTime":2854.5,"body":"and maximize the benefit of our educational system."},{"startTime":2854.76,"endTime":2857.489,"body":"Everyone listening to this"},{"startTime":2857.699,"endTime":2860.08,"body":"would benefit from that."},{"startTime":2860.78,"endTime":2861.949,"body":"Let's change the world y'all."},{"startTime":2862.78,"endTime":2863.28,"body":"Hey,"},{"startTime":2863.53,"endTime":2865.08,"body":"are you registered to vote?"},{"startTime":2865.79,"endTime":2866.57,"body":"Are you sure?"},{"startTime":2867.179,"endTime":2871.489,"body":"When was the last time you verified your voter registration information."},{"startTime":2872.189,"endTime":2877.959,"body":"Go to vote.gov. Vote.gov."},{"startTime":2878.439,"endTime":2880.969,"body":"Find your state. Look up your information."},{"startTime":2881.679,"endTime":2888.11,"body":"If someone you know will be 18 by the general election, November 5th, 2024."},{"startTime":2888.12,"endTime":2890.04,"body":"Most states"},{"startTime":2890.149,"endTime":2893.26,"body":"will allow them to register to vote. Now,"},{"startTime":2893.659,"endTime":2894.86,"body":"spread the word."},{"startTime":2894.979,"endTime":2899.129,"body":"Make a plan to vote. Bring a friend, bring all your friends."},{"startTime":2901.06,"endTime":2902.28,"body":"Thank you for listening."},{"startTime":2903.149,"endTime":2904.75,"body":"If you enjoyed this episode,"},{"startTime":2904.76,"endTime":2908.719,"body":"please forward it on to other administrators in your institution."},{"startTime":2908.84,"endTime":2912.53,"body":"Let's continue talking about grades and continue"},{"startTime":2912.54,"endTime":2915.53,"body":"finding ways to improve the system."},{"startTime":2926.05,"endTime":2930.909,"body":"Until next time, stretch your legs drink some more water, be kind to each other."},{"startTime":2931.36,"endTime":2932.399,"body":"I'm Doug mckenna"},{"startTime":2932.61,"endTime":2934.469,"body":"and this is for the record."}]}