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Something About Bitcoin
I chat to fellow bitcoiners about how they found bitcoin and why they encourage others to look at it. I want to expose my friends and family to the wider world of bitcoin. For those who know the basics, I want to encourage them to go further down the rabbit hole and explore how fiat is destroying not just our money but our healthcare, education, food and right to be left alone.
Something About Bitcoin
Unfriending Social Media, Building Social Networks | Jordi Llonch Episode 006
"Bitcoin is freedom for money, and Nostr is freedom for speech." Pilot-turned-entrepreneur Jordi explains how Nostr solves the identity problem of the internet and enables true ownership of your digital self. Ready to reclaim your online presence?
#Bitcoin #Nostr #Satlantis
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⚡ Get in touch with me:
X/twitter
https://x.com/conormc_ardle
Email:
somethingaboutbitcoin@gmail.com
Nostr: npub10y0zse6uf3pkc0x8tc7ha4cyuhu8zmdemtuhtqdlv7yt3eju9mjst7dr39
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⚡ Get in touch with Jordi:
satlantis.io/Jordi
X/twitter:
@jordi_llonch
Yeah, so welcome Jordi. Jordi is here. I've met Jordi at Bitcoin Ireland Conference a couple of weeks ago now, wasn't it, jordi?
Speaker 2:How you?
Speaker 1:doing, conor? Hi, how you doing so? I get talking to Jordi about his presentation. He done a presentation on, I suppose, privacy, but more specifically Nostr and a client Client is the right word on Nostr called Satlantis, isn't that right, jordi? Yeah, atlantis, isn't that right, jody. So it was all very interesting to me because I was just getting into the world of Nostra and I happened to be sitting beside you and you were doing a workshop and I was like I really got to see this workshop, but then I had my kids with me so I couldn't make the workshop. So luckily I could talk and be in the bar afterwards.
Speaker 2:We can do something today.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah. So people have been listening in and they've been learning a bit about Bitcoin. Usually, people are beginners. I think it's more beginners in Bitcoin that are listening to this podcast. So we did touch on Nostor, but I still don't really understand that. I do have an account now, but I don't really know the full scope and the full power and capabilities of Nostor. So I suppose, if you want to start Geordi with your story about how did you find Bitcoin, or a bit about your background before you got into the world that you're in now, do you want to kick it off there.
Speaker 2:Definitely yeah, and I come from a very different background. As a kid, of course, I liked playing cardboard games like Monopoly and Hotels, so this is what got me interested into money. But then I grew up and you start with your rat race and Fiat job and all that. And at the time when I was a teenager, I was fascinated by flying. So I ended up becoming an airline pilot. So I thought like, okay, I like money, you know pilots, I fly, I can make money. No, it was all just, it was another Fiat job and I loved it. Money no, and it was all just, it was another fiat job and I loved it and it taught me manners, it it taught me how to be a man alone on the world by my own.
Speaker 2:And during during the time I I was flying, I found out like other passions, like entrepreneurship. I went back to school, I went to study arts, multimedia, computer science, and I graduated in multimedia, which helped me discover, like the power of digital creation, digital apps. I become an entrepreneur, and so I founded a couple of startups. I had to quit my job as an airline pilot to start putting all my efforts, you know, just in trying to make the companies successful and in the time, you know, I was like fighting to make money, because that's what the startup is. A startup is like this entity it's a you don't know what. It is right Exactly. It's a group of people. It's a people, it's an organization, it's an entity, it's a life, living form that is trying to mutate to evolution, evolve, like using these darwinian principles to find a solution to problems that are in in the world. So then it can scale so fast it can reach escape velocity. And then it's when you, when, when it pays back all the effort that you've been putting there.
Speaker 2:And I realized that well, maybe I wasn't such a good entrepreneur, so I successfully failed doing that. So I came back like, okay, what happened? What's the mistake? Why did I fail? And maybe, looking backwards now it's easy to discover what it is.
Speaker 2:And the more I study businesses I like companies, I like entrepreneurship, I like business the more I realize that companies or successful companies are twice successful Once, one because they are trying to solve a real problem in real life, and second because they are fighting inflation. So it's like you're trying to build something but at the same time you have to build it faster to avoid the inflation to eat you. And this is how I kind of discovered Bitcoin. Okay, so why trying to solve or to make two things well, which is completely Making one startup successful is like maybe once in 1,000. So imagine, at the same time, trying to escape velocity of inflation. Imagine, at the same time, trying to escape velocity of inflation. So that's when I decided, okay, let's devote my time, my life, my career to Bitcoin. And this is how I discovered Bitcoin. And, by transition, or just by being nearby Bitcoin, I discovered Noster, which is what I'm doing nowadays.
Speaker 1:Interesting, which is what I'm doing nowadays interesting. So did you have, um, did you have any? Any friends that were in the bitcoin space? That got you into a bitcoiner? Was it just you, on your own entrepreneurial journey, that found out about inflation?
Speaker 2:and then you're like I'm fighting an uphill battle here when I was a pilot, I had this friend who once said the word Bitcoin and blah, blah, blah, bitcoin, blah, blah, blah blah and that's all you know, and it entered from one ear and left on the other one. So no, it was like it was. Actually. I have to thank the government for teaching me about Bitcoin. Yeah, during the pandemic, they forced me to stay at home alone doing nothing. Of course, I had a job, but I was like 24 hours stranded at home. So I was again. As I told you, I'm curious about money, not having a lot of zeros in the bank. You know, not the digits itself, but what is money, the technology, gold. So during the pandemic, I stumbled upon a lot, a lot of videos about money, about gold, and gold led me to to bitcoin yeah, as it does.
Speaker 1:That's what happened to me as well. I studied a gold money as well. It was that question of what is money and then it led me to gold being the perfect money. But then it was, oh, bitcoin's digital gold, and then it was down the rabbit hole into into bitcoin too, yeah, and I suppose then I want to focus more on getting into nostre, because for me, obviously, bitcoin is well. I think I think maybe you'd said this that nostre is to privacy what bitcoin is to money. Is that correct? Is that?
Speaker 2:right at at bitcoin ireland. What I said is that money is sorry, bitcoin is freedom for money and Noster is freedom for speech. That's what was my main topic.
Speaker 1:And so can you go into that a bit more, just if anybody. So people listen to this are just getting into Bitcoin for the first time, so they might not even know Noster, apart from me having mentioned it. So obviously a lot of people use social media and they know that's a part of their life. How would you so?
Speaker 1:Just for me, the way that I got into Nostra was through the social media aspect. It was, like you know, it was a decentralized system or a protocol that you could use as a social media app, but it was outside the control of those central authorities. So obviously you've got like meta, who have facebook and instagram, and they're the big ones. But then you've got like the likes of youtube as well. If you put stuff on youtube and they don't like what you say, they'll take it out or they'll hide your video. Or even now in the uk we see people posting on facebook and, because they don't agree with what's being said, the police are going to their door and people are being controlled, they're being fed certain information or they're being denied access to certain information. So for me, I see Nostra as a decentralized, more fair way to use social media, and that's what got me interested in it. So what is? Would you agree with that? Is that what?
Speaker 2:that is Right. So I'm trying to answer or to complement your statement, having in mind what you just said, that maybe many people in the audience is new to Bitcoin and new to Noster. So if anybody is new to Bitcoin, to Noster, don't even think about what Bitcoin or what Noster is. You don't need to understand what it is or how it works. None of us knows how a bank wire or a bank transfer works. I send you money and then you receive the money. We don't know how many banks are interconnected to each other. We don't know how many settlements happen daily, weekly, monthly, yearly. We don't know if there are different types of banking system between different countries. We don't know, we don't care, it just works. So, in order to complement what you just said, noser is a technology. It's a technological protocol.
Speaker 2:So people don't know how email works. Right, they just send an email and it works. They don't care if there is an STMP protocol installed on top of the TCP IP layers of the internet. No, I don't even know if you have Gmail or Outlook or you run your own private email. You just give me your email, connor at blah blah blah dot com. Of course, if it's connor at gmailcom, I can imagine that you're on a Gmail, but you can create your own domain. You can, but you can create your own domain. You can create your own email on your own domain. So I don't even need to know what email provider do you have, and yet I can send you an email. So Noster is like that. Right, it's a technological protocol that allows to companies like Gmail, outlook, proton. It allows them, to build these applications on top of that and then we can communicate. It doesn't matter, we don't have to have you and I don't have to have the same email provider. It just works. So this is what I'm trying to add to your statement before. So NoStory is just a protocol. It's a protocol and on top of it you can build things and, as you said, the most popular it's the social network. But on Nostra, you can build anything you want. It's like on the internet. On the internet, we can build email or we can build websites, or we can build streaming services, like now we're having this conversation, you and I, and the audience is listening and watching us in real time. So Nostra is just a technology that and this is the beautiful part of it compared to other technologies it is capable of separating and putting aside the identity, because before Noster, noster is just a baby, just four and a half years old.
Speaker 2:Before Noster, if we wanted to create an account somewhere, let's say on Facebook, we had to use the Facebook login system. Then there was a time that Google and Apple tried to change it or to make it easier, because you know, if you're launching a website, you're building on top of what I said before, right on the internet technologies. But if you're launching a website and you want to have a little bit of control of your users imagine you have a marketplace, you want to sell some products you need to know who your users are. So every website developer had to create a login system. But the internet was not supposed to have identities guarded in private gardens by every time that you have to build a website. The internet was free, but big companies build faster than free when I mean free, I mean open. So big companies like Facebook, amazon, google they were faster than the development of the internet, so they had to build their own login systems, and that's why Google and Apple invented the single sign-in, which allows you, with the same Google ID, to sign in in different pages. So then, if I'm a web developer and I don't have time to create a login system, I can plug in the Google one, but that means that Google owns my identity. So that's not private. It's even worse because it gives one company the power of the information of everyone, and a couple of minutes ago you were talking about the privacy. So Nostr wasn't built by privacy, but it solves the privacy problem. So now if you have only one company, let's say Google or Apple, that has all the IDs of everyone, it's a honeypot and it would be very interesting for a hacker or for just an employee, an upset employee, somebody that can be bribed to leak this information. So Noster helps build or helps bring the identity layer back to the open sourceness of the internet itself.
Speaker 2:So and I'm telling you all this story, conor, to be able to complement what you said, yes, a bigger use case is social networks, because the legacy social media platforms we have to differentiate about that social network and social media, legacy social media platforms, like everything on Meta, like Instagram, facebook, whatsapp, then LinkedIn, twitter all those platforms are not social networks. Okay, they might have started a social network when they were created, but now they are social media platforms. They know so much about us that they use it. We use it to discover content and, of course, they use it to serve an agenda towards us so that we can all follow the same path. But that's not a topic. So what I'm trying to say is that, yes, the main use case is social networks and the value is that Twitter cannot own what you have, what you say.
Speaker 2:So this is what you were saying before. Yeah, so I am the owner of what I say. It doesn't mean that all the information or all the pictures, all the videos, all the texts that I write are in my pocket or in my USB or in my hard drive. No, it means that there is a way to verify, without a doubt, that what I said. I said it Because there is no middleman that could change. Because you look back now to your tweets, we don't remember what we said a couple of years ago. So, unless we are keeping a database and downloading everything we post online, maybe you look back and you see maybe one tweet is deleted, or maybe there was an emoji and then suddenly now it's changed by another one, or maybe the whole thing has changed. We we, we don't have the assurity to validate that what we wrote in one of those private gardens will still be like that in the future yeah, and the thing is, when you put stuff on social media, people think that this is their social media profile and they don't.
Speaker 1:They don't realize that they're putting all this information onto somebody else's platform or this. They're giving it to this company and they have control of it. We don't. We don't have control of it. So, yeah, and also something great, for me, it's like social. When you're talking about social, social media companies or whatever, and social networks, like they started off with social networks, but they are media companies and for me, even before I was a bit cleaner, like the mainstream media was something that I didn't trust and I thought you know, pushing an agenda here and they're trying to tell their own story and we see it even more now today. And now I see social media as just being the next wing, because most people don't really watch the news, do they? We don't really read newspapers. Everybody gets their information from social media and if there's somebody behind that company pulling the strings or they have connections and they want people in a certain country to believe a certain thing, it's very easy for them to do that and they know us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they know us very well because we are all day long like this, scrolling crazy, doing this and sending emails, sending messages, sending what we think are private messages to our contacts. They know.
Speaker 1:There's a middleman there. Like you're saying, even if somebody went back to one of your tweets or your post on Facebook and changed an emoji, you might not notice. But if you were somebody that was like I don't know, somebody that was into health and fitness and uh, you know, then somebody puts a tweet about you saying, oh, we should all eat like this fast food, and then the people's people might have this reputation. It's built on trust and all of a sudden somebody could take that all away from them.
Speaker 2:You know, yes, it doesn't matter if you have. I'm not saying that you, that people who is listening? Now they have to buy the blue check on twitter or anything. This is just a placebo. Those are like not solutions, because the blue check is provided by the same company that has the right and the and the control and, legally, when you sign the terms and condition, the right to change anything. You post that because it's like okay.
Speaker 2:Now I'm gonna say like this small, I want to drop this a small sentence, for for people that is not bitcoin, but many bitcoiners will will understand. They say that your money in your bank is not money, is not yours and it's not in the bank, right? So this is the typical thing we coiners say. So we should bring that into social media. Your social media posts are not yours, are not social media and they are not there. So it's the same thing. We should start thinking about everything we do online unless we run our own server.
Speaker 2:Imagine my server is facebook2.com. I create the website called facebook2.com and I run the whole technological stack there and I created a website and, of course, I'm the only user of this platform because I built it for me. Then I can know for sure that this is mine, but would you trust me Because maybe I'm lying as well to you? So what if I run a private code, not open source code and all that? So everything on the internet? We believe that? No, because I saw it on the internet. I saw a post on LinkedIn. Okay, I get reputation because it's LinkedIn. It doesn't matter, everyone can post.
Speaker 2:And I say that because I've been working in the startup world for 10 years and I've been running social media campaigns and there was, like this client, that we had to make sure that our message would arrive to many, many people. So what we did is we connected all the social media accounts that we could from this client and we created like a path, and the path lasted I think it was 26 or 27 steps, meaning that we were doing 27 impacts to every person that was browsing on the internet and not in the same network. So maybe we found we find this person for the first time on LinkedIn then, because LinkedIn gives you some cookies, some tracking ideas. Then you can know if this person, after visiting LinkedIn, goes to Facebook. And it's not the same identity or the same credentials, but the internet allows you to connect those two usernames, those two profiles, names, those, those two profiles.
Speaker 2:So then, if the first, if I see that you've seen my first impression, my first maybe just a, a post and a very non-related to what I'm trying to sell you post like tomorrow is gonna, it's gonna rain, something like that. But then I go to to facebook and I see that it's you, so then the message will be brains are intensifying, and then I'm starting to create a narrative inside of you. You know, have you seen the movie Inception?
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:Right. So I'm trying to get inside of your brain and then inside of the brain, of the brain, of the brain, of the brain, and then, at the end of the 27 steps that I used, facebook two times, instagram, linkedin, twitter, et cetera. In the end, you believe that the decision comes from within yourself, and that's not true. So I know how these things work. This is how the internet today works, the commercial internet works. So Noster comes to try and avoid, or you know the way internet works today. It's the way it works.
Speaker 2:It might have its positive and negative impacts, but I usually say the same thing that a knife is a knife and you can use it to cut it, a carrot to get a carrot, or you can use it to stab a person. So the tools are there. Sometimes, the problem is that we do not, we do not understand the power of the tools that we're using every day and we just see it as media or content generators that, oh, they know me so well. And in the end you know I had this conversation I don't know. I want to say I want to know your point of view. I have this conversation with some people that say it's fine, I like ads, because they know me so well that they provide me the products I'm interested in. Have you heard this with a friend or somebody?
Speaker 1:I think, yeah well, it wouldn't be the main view from my immediate friends, but I've heard people saying that yeah Well, so what? It's just advertising.
Speaker 2:So what? They know me very well and in the end and again, I don't have data to verify this, I'm just based on my experience working on the internet it's like like no, they don't know you very well, they know you a little bit and they infiltrate inside of your brain potential interest and they generate an interest. And then you see that that ad, because they generated that interest. So, yes, they know us, but the goal of the internet, of the commercial internet, is to make money. So it's that people is trying to sell you stuff. It's it's the goal of the internet, of the commercial internet, is to make money. So people are trying to sell you stuff. It's the nature of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the thing that's always stood with me is that, saying that if something is free, then you are the product 100%. That's social media for me.
Speaker 2:That's it, that's it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the thing that I really love about Nostra as well is there's two things that I really like about it. So one is the way you can create. So you can create your profile, you can create your identity, and then you can take that from client to client, app to app. So, just as a convenience thing for me, it's like you know, you've got all the logins, you've got all the passwords, you've got all this stuff to remember logins, you've got all the passwords, you've got all this stuff to remember and then you can post on one. So I can maybe post some clips of this on on instagram, and then I have to post it on youtube and then if I want my friends who are maybe a bit older, who don't have an instagram they're only on facebook I have to go and post this on facebook, and with nostra, I don't have to do that. I can just create a profile and carry it from place to place, which is way way more convenient.
Speaker 2:That's the beauty and, at the same time, the most difficult part to explain to people, because I use this example, I imagine it's not only what you post, but the interactions that you have on that social network. So you post this content on YouTube, but your friends from Instagram cannot see it, so then you have to post it, and et cetera, et cetera, from Instagram cannot see it, so then you have to post it, and et cetera, et cetera. So imagine that you post a video on YouTube and you could bring to another social network, like to Instagram, all the views, because you, as a content creator, what matters to you is your social graph, is what's going on, the interactions, or we can also call it the web of trust. So if more people watches your videos and likes your videos, you're generating trust among them and the trust is shared from you to them and, because they like it, from them to their connected peers that might not be connected to you. So this is a way for you to reach a broader audience. You to reach a broader audience, and Noster allows you to do this, because what you own on Noster, what you own, is your social graph, all your connections, all your likes, all your post impressions, all your comments, all of that. And if there is a YouTube clone that allows to view these comments, it will be there. If there is a YouTube clone that allows to view these comments, it will be there. If there is an Instagram clone that allows to show these YouTube, these post comments, everybody will see them. That's the beauty of the interoperability of Nostr.
Speaker 2:And once people understand this, they're like okay. First they say I'm sold, I'm sold, but the problem is that they say but I would like to keep using Instagram and Facebook. Can I use Facebook? Can I connect Noster with Facebook, or can I connect YouTube with Noster? And that's when people go down like no, so now I have to download another app. So I think that's the biggest issue. People have have to download another app. So that's the. I think that's the biggest issue people have they. They understand that facebook, instagram, youtube they are private, private houses on the internet. But because all the effort and all the network effects that these platforms have built have, users are like okay, I'll stick on youtube for a while.
Speaker 1:And this is the value and this is the power that these big social media corporations have yeah, it's like you're talking about nostriler and for me it's like that is the true social network. That's. That is the network because you can create your identity, share it with other people, and it is something that is authentic, because I could be a certain person on facebook that's maybe I don't know loves football, and an instagram would be a person that loves rock climbing, and my friends on facebook don't know me on instagram. My friends on instagram don't know the me on facebook. So I could whether I meant to or not, I could have different versions, so I can have different identities on different social platforms, which means that they're not really a true representation of me, but with Nostar, I can.
Speaker 2:It depends On Nostar. You can also have 100 million identities if you want, and I like the way that the current web works, which means we have a professional social network, which is LinkedIn. Then we have a fun social network, which is social media platform, which is TikTok. So you're just there, scroll random, infinite scroll, and it's like, oh fuck, two hours passed by. Then you have Twitter. So you know those days that you feel a little bit more crispy and you want to engage with someone, it's like, okay, let's go and talk with people, right? So I like that.
Speaker 2:Each of those social media giants have become the hubs for different type of activities, the hubs for different type of activities, and I think that was the. It's the social sorry, it's the startup framework to you have to become a monopoly. So there are many other Instagram clones out there, but there is only room for one in the way the internet is created today. So I believe that we users have the choice to choose where to go, and until we users decide that we want a social network, we're going to stick wandering and spending time in those social media platforms. Yeah, so we need to want it because their nostrils is really is useful for that, but it looks like we users prefer to be ships, like kind of how half dormant, or zombies, like just consuming. You know, this is something that maybe, maybe we should start thinking about, like the use cases of this, of these platforms, because in the end, it's it's market dynamics, right? Nobody's forcing us to use instagram or facebook, is that? We, the users?
Speaker 2:choose to use it yeah, it's like.
Speaker 1:The thing that really, I suppose, ties it into bitcoin for me and for other Bitcoiners probably is that it is a. It's a true free market, isn't it? Because, you know, instagram and Facebook have the monopoly on. People, have this thing where either you know I want to use Facebook or, let's say, I don't want to use Facebook anymore because I don't want to be manipulated and people to have my private data, but I don't want to leave facebook because I want to still have that connection with my friends and they don't. They don't have it. Either you have this and or you don't have it, and there's no middle ground.
Speaker 1:So with nostre, people can build apps on that and if people like it, they can go and use it. But if, for some reason, they change their terms of use or they change how things are run, or people just don't like how the person, the company, are behaving, then people can just take everything that they have all their likes, that you said their information, their profile, identity and they can just move it somewhere else. And it's not, there's no friction. They don't have to think, oh, I'm going to set up a new profile, I need a new password, and then you use it. They just move, and that's the thing that's great about Bitcoin is because it ties it into that thing of creating value. And again, that's what I like about Nostra is because you have the option to send somebody stats. So on Facebook, you just like stuff or you create an event and people say they're going to this event, but they don't go. They just like, like, like.
Speaker 2:But it doesn't mean anything, it's just dead because it's free, it's because, like it's free, it's dead, there's no responsibility, there's no consequences to it.
Speaker 1:But in Nostra you can zap somebody and if, say, somebody posts a song, or they write a story or a poem or they just make content, you can actually send them and it's, you know, it's your hard-earned cash or well, not cash, but it is a digital cash, but it's your bitcoin, it's your sats that you're sending to somebody. So when they get a like or a zap, they know this person really likes this. They're not just liking it because I'm their friend or because I'm you know, I went to school with them. People know that this, what I'm doing here, has value and I'm going to keep doing this. And if they don't get it, then they know maybe this thing they're doing, this podcast people aren't really digging it, so maybe you shouldn't do it anymore, you know. So it's. It's that free, the idea of that free market and actual. You know there's a, there's a consequence for people's actions. You know if they, if they want to like something, it, it costs them something, it means something, whereas normal social media it's, it's emptiness, it doesn't mean anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now, listening to you, you make me think about the power the social networks, social media platforms have, because social media is very good for discoverability. If I'm not following you on Instagram, but you are creating such a great content or a great video or piece of content, if it's relevant, it will be shown to me. But relevant, what does relevant mean? It depends on the agenda of the platform, right. But putting that aside, social media platforms are very good for discoverability, but they hide it behind the social network platform, which is what you were saying, that well, my friends are here, my friends are here, my classmates are here, my family members are here, so I don't want to delete or I don't want to leave this house, because it's a way for me to connect with them, which is not right. Facebook, it's two things at the same time. It started as a social network, but it changed to social media. But they never deleted or hide the network or your list of friends. It was always there. And I think that you're bringing now the most valuable point. Again, for those not very familiar with noster noster is just and let me repeat that, connor, it's like it's this protocol that you can build on top of it, and one of the most used cases, or most popular use cases, is the social network and. But there is people that is building using bitcoin on top of it, which is what you were saying the zaps. A zap is a tip. I don't know why we have to invent all these fancy names. It's just a tip, and so if I like, if you're as you were saying, if you're an artist and you publish just your next I don't know even, it's not just a whole song, just a chorus for your next song then if I'm your fan, if I'm a true fan, maybe I can tip you directly for that chorus, so then you can keep creating your song based on your real followers. You cannot do that on Facebook and there are many other platforms and, of course, onlyfans started like that. Onlyfans was a platform for artists to share and to monetize their content, but the problem is, again, it was not an artist. You're the artist and I'm your fan. It was not a direct connection.
Speaker 2:There is always a middleman Call it a bank, call it a company, call it a corporation, call it a series of entities that have the money, and probably some of your audience that is listening. Now they have created paid profiles on TikTok, instagram, youtube, and they are monetizing their content. Well, they are not monetizing. They are renting space on a virtual platform that is collecting money, something that is normally fiat coins, like maybe euros or whatever coin, and if the central bank doesn't decide to devalue it.
Speaker 2:And you know that there are a lot of intermediaries. So when you are a content creator, you have a lot of counterparty risk and you have to choose wisely which platforms you want to upload your content, because maybe tonight or at the end of the month you're gonna get your monthly revenue bill. Maybe it's uh, it's through paypal or through bank wire, or maybe not, because you never know, because the money is never yours. There is an intermediary and this intermediary is connected to a dozen other intermediaries. So there are a lot of steps, since the fan sends a tip to the artist until the artist receives it back, and this works until it stops working. And who decides it stops working? Well, because there are so many intermediaries, only one little change, one variable, can affect the whole chain, and that's why sometimes you are not paid. Today you're supposed to to be paid, or maybe I don't know. In your song, you said one word that is not liked by the one of the intermediaries because it's breaking some of the terms and conditions that you have to sign, and maybe that money it well, maybe the money left the fan's pocket, but maybe you never receive it, or maybe you receive it five years from now after a whole process on in court. So the value of noster is that if I like your art today, I'll tip you today, and not today in 24 hours, today in 24 milliseconds. So it's immediate and it's the value that goes from my pocket to your pocket.
Speaker 2:For non-Bitcoiners, this is such a rabbit hole to explain and I just come now from this conference. So I was lucky enough to be a speaker and to have a booth btc and I have been in touch these past weeks with a lot of bitcoiners. But also after btc, I went to a nomad conference called the bands conomat fest. You know it's not a conference, it's a fest, it's a festival. So people there are less interested in money and more interested in making in real life connections. So it was a good moment for me, for my team. I went with my Atlantis team to explain what is those things like Noster Bitcoin to people that never cared and they could care less about it, to people that never cared and they could care less about it. So once you explain and I have, like this, this great use case, this great success story.
Speaker 2:So I met this girl, diana. She's a writer, she's a travel blogger, so she travels, but she doesn't travel to the your typical nomad destination. She travels to syria or to afghanistan and she and she, she lives there for a while and she makes friends like local friends, and she's such a good writer. I I was reading a couple of her articles and I was just talking to her and the way she writes you can tell that she's a professional writer. So so she's, on one hand, a professional writer and another one an experienced novelist, and she has such amazing, great pictures, not only written content, but amazing pictures.
Speaker 2:So I said to her why don't you post your content on Noster? She's like no, doesn't matter, I have a blog, I have a website, I'm on social media. So I asked and how much money are you making with that? Well, I had to remove my advertisers because I'm talking about critical things, because I'm traveling to afghanistan and I'm posting pictures of me holding weapons, so you can see her like in a completely pink dress, with a, with a I don't know, like one of these weapons holding. So she said well, I don't have any advertisers anymore because of the topics I said, but there's people following her on social media because of the content, because she's she's an adventurer, she goes to these places, she risks her life to be there to write the whole story, to say come here, this is safe.
Speaker 2:And then other people can go there and say that's true, what we have been bombarded or every day seen on social or on traditional mass media, it's not 100% true. There are other points of view of the story. So I said why don't we just make an experiment? So we were having a nice dinner with a couple of nomads and she said let's do it. So she posted just a brief introduction Hi, my name is Diana, I'm the globetrotting nomad and this is a couple of places I've visited. And she posted like a carousel of images of her past few controversial destinations. And I said well, I am nobody on NoStar, I just have 500 followers, but maybe I can like it and I can zap you your first 210 sats. So that was just the beginning of a spark. Next week, no. Next week, no. In a couple of days.
Speaker 2:I had to invite her to a workshop to use her as a living use case. She just got thousands of sats and likes and retweets because she created like such an original content that she created the account that same night and in less than 24 hours she's popular now on nostrad. So this is the the real use case for people. But until they see that, they will not see the value of leaving facebook. And she now has an audience and and she's posting now regularly and I didn't have to explain her what is Noster, what is Bitcoin.
Speaker 2:I just showed her and because I work for a Noster client, as you were saying, I work at Satlantis, in Satlantis. Satlantis is like a Noster client that you can post and you can see and you can like and all those things. But also we have a tab of merchants. So once I told her, look, now we're going to go to the map and we're going to filter by Bitcoin accepted, and she's like, oh so the money that I made here, can I spend it here? So we just went out of the restaurant, we were walking, we were having dinner and on the way back home I said, look, this place, it accepts Bitcoin. So we stopped by and we just saw a lot of stickers and I said you see, so the money that you make now you can spend it here. It's like a completely circular economy right at the tip of everyone, and she doesn't need to know what is Noster, what is Bitcoin, she just knows that it works.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, she seems like a really interesting person and uh, I find that, I find that amazing that so you, you've taken her and you've just shown her this thing, that, uh, that's just that could change her life. You know, she's made, she's already creating the content, but she doesn't have that access to the people that want to consume it. You just show her this thing, you don't have to explain or how it works or anything, you just like, do this as an experiment and it works. And it works. And of course, I know that's, and I know a couple of tricks.
Speaker 2:You know if, if somebody's listening, just don't expect to post something and immediately become a satillionaire or however you want to call it. You have to create real content. I'm talking about a professional writer and professional nomad traveler that she created a great piece of content and I helped boost it Right. So I was doing other workshops with other people and people told me Jordi, I posted this and it was just a picture of him saying and I'm like what are you expecting to happen? So we're talking value for value. If you go to buy some product and the product is mediocre, what are you going to expect? Nobody's going to buy this product. So I'm not saying that this is a magical money machine maker.
Speaker 1:When you were explaining about about that, I actually was thinking of so many different people that I know in my life that have hobbies, that do things like make music or take pictures, and I'm just thinking this is this is a great thing that they could do, because I know they're already creating the content, even though they probably don't think that they're creating great content themselves, but it's something that I think is great and I see the value in it, and I know that other people like me would see the value in it too, so it could be something that could be really beneficial to just people even in my own life, you know especially on such a small network, because maybe all these people you're talking about, they say well, probably there is five-year-old chinese boy doing playing violin much better than me yes, for sure, and and he's probably on on instagram or on tiktok, but not on nostre so now that we are a small community, there are different benchmarks and you can argue there are like between 200 to 500,000 real users on Noster.
Speaker 2:That's nothing compared to the billion of users that Meta and Instagram TikTok has. So if any of your friends is listening now and you have hobbies, try it, and if you say no, I want to be private, it's fine. Then don't do it. This is just for people that wants to have an online presence. But I know there is a lot of people that they don't even try because they think that there will be somebody better than them and of course it will in this legacy social media platform. But remember that the goal of Noster is not creating an immense, a vast amount of follower list, but the goal is to connect to others. So it doesn't matter. You don't have to have 100,000 followers because you cannot engage with 100,000 people. So this is a social network, this is a way of.
Speaker 2:Let me tell you another use case. So I go to a restaurant. So before going to the restaurant, I have to check if I would like it or not. So probably I will use Google Maps, the Fork, tripadvisor, michelin Guide and any of these platforms, depending on the country I am that are most popular. Well, I see all these reviews, but who are these reviews from? Where do they come from? Maybe, imagine I want to eat sushi, but you don't like sushi. And then you go to a restaurant because somebody some of your friends wanted to go to a sushi. And then you go there and you say food quality zero. And then I'm reading that review. Why zero? You and I do not share the same interests. Why am I seeing your review? This is how Google Maps reviews and all the reviews in all these platforms work. Maybe there are a couple of them that have been trying to create like this social graph, but again, one of the startups that I created, we had also created a review system and you can trick all these review systems. You can fake them, you can play, you can trick the system. So in Nostr, if you and I are, first of all, our friends and, second of all, share the same interest this is through the social graph then I want to see the review that you posted on that sushi place. If not, I don't want to see it. Because who are you? You're just a random person that do not share the same interest with me. So this is another use case that I'm saying, that I'm seeing the potential and that's what I'm trying to explain to people. It's like a new paradigm for understanding how to make decisions online, because now we think we make self-guided decisions, but that's not even true, because even in Google Maps, when you open it why Anybody listening? Just pause for a second here. So listen to me and pause and try to do this.
Speaker 2:Open your google maps wherever you are and zoom a little bit and you'll see some places in the middle of the map. You'll see the names. Why do you see the names of those places? Do you think this is just randomness? And if, if you and I are in the same opening the same exact coordinates in the map, I'm gonna see different names than you. Of course, because all that is targeted ads based on our interests. They cannot show you all the places, else it will be like a network of of words. They show you a couple of them. So enough, not many, not many, but not so little. So you can have an illusion of choice.
Speaker 2:And I'm not saying this is wrong. I'm saying this is how the internet works. People don't just understand it and they say, okay, let's go to the restaurant, why, I don't know. No, you don't know. Based on your story and what you have been doing for the last couple of months on the internet, it's showing, showing you that. So we're trying to do something different at sarlantis. We're trying to not show you like that, those places randomly, we're we're because somebody's paying me to show it. I'm trying to show you what aligns to you. So that's why I don't want anyone, I don't want everybody on nostre to have a hundred thousand followers. I want them to have as many followers or as many real connections they can have 200, 500, 1000.
Speaker 1:You don't need more even 20, 20, 20, good, good connections yes, yes more than 100, 100 week ones. You know, yeah, we've touched. We've touched on our jordi, satlantis, in and out there, but do you want to just give us the rundown on what Satlantis actually is for anybody wondering? Would you mention that?
Speaker 2:Right. So Satlantis is one of those apps that we were talking about that are built on Nost, and there are many types of apps. There are social networks, there are productivity tools, there are videos, there are marketplaces and, of course, because of the power of the social graph and the web of trust, we decided to create an app that is a social network, but not a regular social network, because there are already clones of Facebook, of Twitter, of Instagram on Noster. What we created is imagine you could marry Instagram with Google Maps, with Eventbrite, all under the same name identity, digital identity. So you have some friends that they like let's say that they like football, to follow the example that you were saying a couple of minutes ago. So in the social network, when you travel to a new city, you will discover other people that also like football, and maybe these people they like to hang out at the same bar. So we have the connection of the beautiful feet of Instagram with pictures of football players.
Speaker 2:Then who's taking those pictures? Maybe it's you, maybe I arrived to Dublin and I see you, and then I see that you go to this restaurant, maybe because there is an event in Dublin, and I see that you are either the host or the attendee and I can see the list of all the attendees and everything under the same app, and I can see that you're hosting that event in that pub. So then I can check if that pub accepts Bitcoin, for example, or if any of my friends have been there before and what type of social connections we have. So imagine one single app. Imagine now what you should do is like go to Instagram, find some profile pictures or some pictures of football players, but then who took those pictures? Maybe professional photographers? And then where do they take them and where are they? There is no connection.
Speaker 2:If there is an event in Dublin, then I have to go to Eventbrite. But I don't know if you heard, but on Eventbrite, meetupcom, on all those pages, there are hundreds of bots posting fake events just for the sake of gathering emails. And then you go to these events and there is nobody. It doesn't exist. So that's a big incentive for a hacker to trick the system of meetupcom or Eventbrite. So in our platform it doesn't matter, because you can create an account without an email. I don't care, I don't give a shit about your email, I don't need your email. You know, I don't want to have this power, because if I have the power, I know I can be corrupted. So this is Atlantis. It's like a social network to discover people based on events and places when you travel, and that's why we organize the information in cities that's it.
Speaker 1:Like you said earlier, that really is. It's a paradigm shift because there is like, even going back to the thing of food, like when you meet somebody, like, for example, if I like korean food and none of my friends like korean food, my friends ask me where's good to go and eat. I can't really say, oh, this korean place, because I know they don't like it. So if I meet people and they're like, oh yeah, we love korean food, I'm like, wow, I love korean food too. We have this thing in common. It instantly connects us. Or it could be maybe a certain type of music, you know, maybe, like I don't know classical music and none of my friends like classical music. I, I'm going to Prague, for example. I go to Prague, I like classical music. Who's here? Oh, jordi's there. He's a big corner. He, you know, he's in the Noster. I can go meet him. We can listen to classical music and eat Korean food. You know it's. It connects so many different social circles instantly. So it really is a paradigm shift, isn't it?
Speaker 2:By the way, I lived in Korea.
Speaker 1:Well, you're a pilot flying out of a place. I'm sure I'm sure you lived in a lot of places, but I suppose it's going to be something that's really, really useful for nomads. You're saying you're at that nomad festival and even going back to Bitcoin.
Speaker 1:People tend to think that people are getting into Bitcoin because you want to have all these zeros, and really my thing is I'm trying to get enough bitcoin to get back to having nothing, just being able to travel around and and have more time and experience, like you said, experience cities and experience different cultures and meet new people. That's what this whole thing is all about for me, although it's a bit, it's a bit more difficult now that our kids and family and stuff, but, um, even though I do spend some time, I give it my time in spain, but um, it's, it's like bitcoin and nostre and even just as a social media thing. And then what you're doing with satlantis it's like they go perfectly hand in hand. It's like you know it fits like a glove. But then when you talk about all the other things that can be built on nostre, as well.
Speaker 2:Right, and this is what satlantis is today. I don't know what will be in the future but the beauty of it is that Sotlantis doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:What matters is the underlying infrastructure that we're using. So if today you are a nomad and today you care about Prague and you want to find the best dining places that play classical music in Prague, today, it's fine, but maybe tomorrow you want to use that identity that you just created to sell a secondhand violin on a Noster-enabled marketplace, and then you can bring the same identity and then you bring all the followers. So then when you post that secondhand violin, it's your first time that you're selling something, but because you're bringing with you all your social graph and all your social, all your web of trust, the person, the potential customer that will buy this violin will trust you. If not, you have to create or set up a new account on eBay that it is not related to your interest about classical music. And how is somebody going to trust you?
Speaker 2:Well, you have to start from scratch, and that's why, when somebody has put a lot of effort building their LinkedIn profile, they don't want to leave. And this is a very smart move from the LinkedIn. For the guys from Facebook, from Instagram, this is a bold move and it's like what is called the mode. It's like this network effect that creates that in one hand it's good for the company that created, but on the other one, it creates silos. So you're not going to see videos of funny cats on LinkedIn.
Speaker 2:No because the sil seal for that is Instagram. So on, noster, if one day you want to bring all your likes that you were having while watching whichever content, you can bring it to your next If it makes sense, right, because there is people that say no, no, I would like to keep my profiles separate. I want to have a professional one, I want to have a funny one. Even I want to have an anonymous profile online, or two anonymous profiles online. Well, you better hurry, because the traditional legacy media, social media platforms, will start asking for IDs, passports, and all that because they want to tie your identity. That's why they start asking for your phone numbers.
Speaker 2:My phone number is useful. I don't give it to anyone else because I keep getting spam calls every day, so I don't even have sound on my phone. I don't care, I don't bother, because my number has been shared so many times with so many people, so that happens. So, if somebody wants to be anonymous, think about joining Nostrad. And if someone wants to have different identities, think that those identities, if you have them in different platforms, they're never yours. There is no way for you to verify that.
Speaker 2:What you said, you said, and maybe it's time to start thinking, and if you're not that conspiracy theorist or type of person, it's fine. It's fine. Just try to see the benefits of each social network, understand the value each one offers you and pick the one that adapts the best to you. Of course I'm 100, 100, all in on nostre because I see the value, but I can understand and I still use legacy social media platforms to bring as much people as I can to to nostre and so, george, I suppose, like for for the moment, nostre itself is so young and so it's kind of a bit clunky, like what Bitcoin was a few years ago.
Speaker 1:It was like it took a lot of effort and work to be able to get on board or whatever. So Noster is kind of like that at the moment, which is one of the reasons that it took me so long to try and get an account on there. So I think that's one of the things that kind of puts people off. How so? I think that's one of the things that kind of puts people off. How would you, what would you suggest? If anybody here is listening to this now and think this sounds pretty cool, how can I get on there? They might do a google search, they might try to figure it out, and they're probably going to run into difficulties and get disheartened. So is there a way that you would say is the easiest way?
Speaker 2:to onboard. If you would have asked me one year ago, I would have said, man, this is so early. If you would have asked me one year ago, I would have said, man, this is so early. But if you could have seen the evolution we've done within Satlantis, one year ago it was clunky. Today it's beautiful.
Speaker 2:So my main mission here is to say to everyone that's listening try Satlantis, satlantisio, or download the app on the Apple Store or on the Play Store if you're on a Google phone, or even if you don't want to download, just play with it. It's open access, so you don't have to create an account on the website, on the desktop version, which is beautiful. Try it. Try it with your own, of course, if you want to comment, or if you want to answer, if you want to like, you need an account. If you already have one, maybe there are some Bitcoiners that tried it one year ago and they said so clunky, it breaks down all the time. Bring your ID, bring it to Sarlantis, paste your private key there and try it again. Paste your private key there and try it again. And once you see the usefulness of the tool, keep trying other apps, and I recommend that you use apps that are in an advanced stage of development, because the problem is what you say, Conor, is that many apps those things are like most of those projects are open source and not subsidized by anyone and they are free products. So because of that, the developers they need to wait, so maybe they don't have time to put into creating the best user experience. So right now there might be like a couple of apps that I'm very, very keen on promoting. Of course, one is Atlantis that's why I work at Atlantis, and the second one is Primal.
Speaker 2:If you want to tinker with Noster and Bitcoin, use Primal. They will ask you. So Primal is like a Twitter clone matches, or a Twitter clone that is married to wallet of satoshi. So you have a twitter clone and a bitcoin wallet and the bitcoin wallet is soft kyc. So for those privacy oriented, read about options to to create the down there or look at the implications, but still, I recommend it 100%. The team is amazing. The team behind it is amazing. They have been at the forefront of innovating in the Nostra ecosystem. So try these two. Each one serves a different purpose. Maybe there's people listening here that tell me no, but I want to listen to podcasts. There is Fountain, but the easiest way for a non-technical person that is scared about the clunkiness that you were saying, just play with these two primal and satlantis primal to as a twitter clone to start tipping and receiving tips from, from your audience.
Speaker 2:And satlantis to discover restaurants where you can I say restaurants, any types of merchants, restaurants, attractions, co-workings, spas, hairdressers, merchants all types of merchants where you can spend all those precious sets that you have maybe earned using using primal and, of course, use it to discover people. So, when you travel, atlantis is the best way you can follow cities. We're not asking for your GPS location if you don't want. I mean, if you're looking for a restaurant nearby, we will ask you for GPS location. But if you're just curious, imagine you're going to use the same example as Prague as before. If you're going to Prague, you can follow the city of Prague and you'll see a feed of everything that's going on in Prague. So maybe you like some of the posts and people is posting their favorite restaurants, their favorite places, their favorite hotels.
Speaker 2:So maybe this is a way of discovering not only places but people that will be there, that like places, and we've used it. For example, we were the official partner at BTC Prague for the site events, so like 80 or 90% of all the site events, because some of them they already had their own websites, but the others they run through Satellantis. So if you're going to a city and you know there is a conference or there is an event, you can use Satellantis to discover other people that is going to that same event. So this is a way for you to to meet people in real life that share your interests and try it, try it and reach out to me and I'm I'm very happy of of the evolution that we we have accomplished. Really, like I say that that was a dream one year ago, one year one year ago, it was just a dream of our eccentric ceo, alex zbetsky. He's like, yes, we're gonna build google maps, instagram, meetupcom.
Speaker 1:It works and it works very well yeah, yeah, I was on it, I was looking at it. It does, it does look very nice, it's like, uh, it's like a beautiful thing to look at, isn't it?
Speaker 1:thank you it's something that I haven't haven't had the chance to really use, just apart from just scrolling through it and looking, just checking it out, you know, because I knew I was going to speak to you and I thought I'd have to check it out.
Speaker 1:But it's, you mentioned primal, our primals.
Speaker 1:What I primal was what I have my account on now, and the thing is, like you're saying about connecting to people, like there's, I suppose, mostly in the bitcoin space, a lot of people I started to notice had nostra accounts and it was like you know the app primal address or whatever.
Speaker 1:So a few people I've searched for them, maybe instagram or different social media sites, and I haven't been able to find them and I'm like maybe I'll check, check nostra, and they always seem, they all seem, to be a nostril, you know. So hopefully more and more people are getting there. But the cool thing about it is like I can go to bitcoin conference and I can meet you, or I can meet some, or I can just hear a speaker and check nostril and I can go on there and I can connect with them and you know, it's as it, like, it feels like a closer connection, it's it does, it's a smaller community and it's like, yes, it feels like you really have access to this person, because this person is, you know, they're maybe not a social media person.
Speaker 1:They only contact or connect with people on on nostra, and this is where they're. This is like their space. You know what I mean and they're letting you in to this space yes, because it's it's people that really wants to connect with like-minded people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, while social media is like about reach you want to talk, but you don't want to answer. You just want to talk. Exactly, it's 1,000 people, but you don't want to. Yeah, you cannot answer 10,000 people.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But on Noster it's like I just want to talk to people like me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and at the moment it's people like nomads and Bitcoiners, but in the future, because they're so young, but in the future it will be Frequent travelers, everything.
Speaker 2:Flag theorists yeah. Longevity people interested in longevity yeah. Digital nomads, as you were saying. Bitcoiners, early adopters, technologists, freedom, freedom seekers this is the type of people that you will find now on Nostrad yeah.
Speaker 1:So if there's anybody out there that's doing any of that stuff or they're maybe just fed up with social, normal social media I would definitely say get on the Nostrad and see what you can do join us yeah, carve out a space for yourself.
Speaker 1:Definitely, you make the world a better place for everybody. Brilliant, jordi. So I suppose we've done. I think we've done over an hour there, so I suppose we can wrap it up, but hopefully, maybe next time we'll get you on and we'll talk more about your travels as a nomad, because that's something that's really, really cool.
Speaker 2:Happy to jump on again next time 100%.
Speaker 1:Have you any more festivals or conferences coming up?
Speaker 2:Yes, Now in August it's PTC Hell in Helsinki.
Speaker 2:Now in August it's BTC Hell in Helsinki. Then, well, maybe next week or a couple of weeks, the Mallorca Blockchain Days, which I really hate the name, but they are Bitcoin matches. Then it's in Riga, probably Baltic Honey Badger. Yeah, yes, oh, and I'm very proud, I'm very eager to participate in Prague at the end of October. For the non-Bitcoiners, but for the freedom seekers, the Free Cities Foundation is organizing their yearly conference and I had the pleasure to be speaking there and I'm really, really interested in meeting all these people that I already met online on their online forum a couple of months ago. That I already met online on their online forum a couple of months ago. But if anybody's interested in freedom, like second passports, new residences, tax optimization, free cities, network states, come to Prague at the end of October.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what it's all about. For me, it's freedom, all this stuff. Come by Meet me there, I'll try to, yeah, and if I don't see you there, I'll probably see you. I'll probably come meet you in Spain at some stage, because I'm going to be there at some point and I want to check out the Bitcoin meetups there as well. So I'll definitely get meeting you somewhere For sure. Yeah, the Amsterdam conference in Amsterdam oh wow.
Speaker 2:Yes, and there is a lot of panels about Nostra. Yes, I'm considering. Maybe I'm not going there, but somebody from my team will go yeah, anybody from Sotland it's cool to sit down and talk to. Yes yes, thank you for mentioning it.
Speaker 1:It's very, very relevant so if anybody wants to reach out to you, apart from getting on this atlantis or nostra, is there any where else they can reach you? A website or anything? Just?
Speaker 2:yes, just search for my name underneath here jordy young or jordy young esteve. My atlantis handle is atlantisio slash jordy, and from there you can message me and you can find me on twitter, on linkedin, but of course, if you want something more private or intimate, find me on on nostra through atlantis yeah, and you can give me a few links and I'll put your links in the show notes here.
Speaker 1:Anyway, people can reach out to you. Thank you, but enjoy, we'll let you go then. I know you're busy, you can enjoy the rest of your evening. It's a lot later there for you than it is for me, so thank you, connor.
Speaker 2:It's been an honor being here. I'm glad that we met in person in dublin. I encourage everyone to also go to conferences and meetups, as you were recommending, and see you next time in person or on Nofser. Thanks.
Speaker 1:Jordi, see you.