Naked at the Top

The Problem With Emotion Led Leadership | Zoe Goodhardt

• Zoe Goodhardt • Season 1 • Episode 4

Share episode

Zoe Goodhardt doesn’t just understand growth—she builds it from the inside out. In this high-impact episode of Naked at the Top, Zoe shares what it really takes to lead modern marketing, shape high-performing teams, and strip back the fluff in business. With a background that spans bold career moves and brand-defining moments, she offers grounded insight into leadership, clarity, and what separates real growth from empty noise.

This conversation isn’t your typical marketing talk. Zoe challenges the culture of fake empathy and political correctness that often dilutes genuine connection and leadership. Instead, she makes the case for direct communication, values-based hiring, and a relentless focus on performance over polish. If you’ve ever questioned how to build a brand without losing your soul—or a team without losing your edge—this is your episode.

We go deep into the psychology behind sales, the hidden strengths of hospitality training, and why women in leadership need to stop shrinking themselves with self-deprecating language. Zoe shares personal stories, sharp strategy, and the mindset shifts that took her from imposter syndrome to strategic clarity.

Whether you're a founder, CMO, or just trying to level up your influence and impact, this episode is packed with moments that land. No jargon. No hype. Just clarity, strategy, and a powerful reminder to lead like you mean it.

Subscribe to catch more: https://www.youtube.com/@nakedatthetop?sub_confirmation=1
Special thanks to our sponsors, Core Story – find out more at https://corestory.com.au

Aleyx on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aleyxward/
Catch us on your favourite podcast directory: https://nakedatthetop.buzzsprout.com/share

📲 Connect with Naked at the Top:


🎥 YouTube – https://youtube.com/@NakedAtTheTop?sub_confirmation=1

💼 LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/company/naked-at-the-top

📸 Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/nakedatthetoppodcast

🎧 Spotify – https://open.spotify.com/show/7oepK8jODbGvwsCzPbMBeY

🍎 Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/naked-at-the-top/id1741310522

🌐 Website – https://www.nakedatthetop.com

Aleyx:

Hello and welcome to Naked At the Top. Today's guest is someone whose leadership is defined by commitment, hard work, and confidence. Zoe Gutar is the head of Growth and Marketing at tag. She played a key role in Western Health COVID-19 vaccination rollout, and has overseen project delivery for Nala, Fun Day Suites and Mazda, but it's not just her strategic thinking and execution. Zoe is a mom of three and brings her family values to our team to build a strong culture. Zoe, welcome to Naked At the Top. So I'd love to start by finding out how did you get the job at Tag, because I hear it's quite an interesting story!?

Zoe:

Okay. Yeah, so I as you said, I have three children and after maternity leave was like finishing with my third child, She was about one and a little bit, and I was like, I had a quite a long maternity leave with her and I was like itching to get back into the workplace, like into a, had always worked when I was on maternity leave, but I was interested in finding my feet again in the court in a corporate environment. And I was walking down, like basically down the street and I saw Alon, who I used to babysit. And I said, oh, what do you do? And he is oh, I've got a digital agency agency. I'm like, oh, that's nice. me a little bit about it. And he tells me, and I'm cool, I'm gonna. You're not, we don't, need you. And we like, we, we don't need another person on the team at the moment. I said, okay, what would it take for me to come work for you? I know, bring a couple of clients with you. I'm like, oh, okay. Anyway, literally the next day I I had a big enough of a client that would like, basically subsidize my salary, right?

Aleyx:

Yeah.

Zoe:

and then I said to him, just layer on whatever on top that is could fit into my load. And at the time I was only doing it was like 18 hours a week or something. That was six and a half years ago. And

Aleyx:

that's amazing.

Zoe:

think that I was gonna bring in a client the next day.

Aleyx:

The very next day. how did you do?

Zoe:

I had a couple people when I was on mat leave call me and say, Hey Zoe, can you help me with. This, or like I had a problem with, my website, or I have a problem with a exercise. Can you come in and do some consulting? So I had enough of enough people in my network that like required like some, love and attention and so I just called one of them and said I think I could actually take your business from X to Y, but do it through Tag. And not only would you get me, but you'd get an entire team of ex specialists. Specialist. So that's, yeah, that's it

Aleyx:

That's amazing. What was the reaction like? I'm, sure they were shocked.

Zoe:

So Gary, the other co-founder who literally only just met, I walked in'cause I said to them gimme a contract, right? Me something that is that, that can get them to sign. And he's Alright, give you. Cool. That's cute. I came in, printed thing, put it on his desk. I'm like, okay, let's get to work.

Aleyx:

That's brilliant. I just think that's, a testament to who you are and a go-getter and just make things happen, right?

Zoe:

Yeah. I just think that when you see something so clearly, like as soon as I saw Alon again, I hadn't seen him in such a long time. I, it just felt right.

Aleyx:

Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Could you briefly take us through your role at tag on, what your day-to-day looks like?

Zoe:

yeah, sure. look on, on paper, my job is head of growth and marketing, which essentially I am responsible for bringing in new business into our business. And then working out what that, what that client needs. So through the onboard, like through the. phase, I then can determine whether or not, a business needs help with their website or their CRO, like a CRO program or CRM, or social ads or Google Ads or whatever it is. And then

Aleyx:

Yeah.

Zoe:

I'll determine that in conjunction with our team. And then through the transition of that client into the business. I'll make sure that the on boat, on onboarding with us is what I sold, right?

Aleyx:

Yeah.

Zoe:

them through that process and I'll make sure that like landed safely and they're often running right. And. Off and running, typically I then take a step back and then our team fly, right? So that they do all the flying. And then I would then come in at certain intervals along the way to like just check in on how it's going. That is what it's meant to be. Now, in reality it's not like that at all because sometimes. Firstly, I'm much more invested than, and that's often been a criticism of me from our team. I'm much too hands-on. To say, take a step back. but I can't, I can't help myself because. I love the actual work. So the problem with my job now is that I'm responsible for something that happens up here, but you don't get to do the actual work.

Aleyx:

Yes.

Zoe:

doing the actual work.

Aleyx:

Yeah. Yeah.

Zoe:

yeah, so that's broadly what I do. And then the other parts of my job is like men, mentoring and upskilling our team. Yeah. I do lecture at RMIT and post post-grad marketing. So that's really, I, fun and exciting part of my it's not day to day, but it does like ebb and flow. And then I'll often represent our business, like in the wild. So I'll go to conferences and I'll speak or I'll host events here and I'll be the face of the business.

Aleyx:

Amazing. So very varied. And it seems like you you really care about the growth of your people. RMIT as well, you obviously wanna give back to kinda the wider community as well. Amazing. how, obviously Naked at the Top is all about leadership. How would you describe your leadership today, your leadership style today? and, how has that, changed since you've come more into kind of ownership with Tag

Zoe:

I find this question really challenging because one part of me knows the answer I need to say and,

Aleyx:

Tell me the real answer.

Zoe:

I dunno what is buzzing at me. And the other, like for example, like I know that, I know the answer is I need to lead with empathy. About empathy and vulnerability and making sure that, you are in touch with your emotions and things of that in that vein, right?

Aleyx:

Yes. Yeah.

Zoe:

I think we've edged too far in, in that and we spend too much time talking about our feelings in the workplace and not talking about outcomes. I'm obviously very invested in my team. Often I'll know they're. Pets, obviously their pet's name'cause they're always in the office, right? So their pet I'll know if a father or mother is, un unwell or a sister or someone's getting married or what holiday they're going on. And, things like that. I struggle in a day-to-day leadership role, when you sit down with with someone in the team and they wanna talk about how they feel about work and how they feel about whether or not they feel like they're the right fit the client. It's all a feeling rather than an actual acknowledgement of in intellect and, and experience. I've, occasionally I lose my temper.'cause I think it's very, it's very, easy for someone to talk about their feelings, right? It's not easy to about the, results of that campaign. now for they're talking to me, right? So they're talking to their, like their boss and their leader, and then they say, oh, I felt that, if we would've had an hour more or felt that if the client let me do, put it in blue rather than in yellow. It could have been x. Right now, a client isn't gonna say, Hey, Alex, tell'em about your, how do you feel about this campaign? They're not gonna say that. They're gonna say, Alex, what is the net results of all of this? What am I profiting from this campaign? Because money go round and not feelings.

Aleyx:

Yeah. And essentially, you know what you do in digital marketing is that, the results are there and, they're gonna want to see those results. And I must say, I think it's really refreshing that you have said that. And I felt that myself when I was in corporate and managing a team. I remember at times saying to like my peers, oh, sometimes I wish people would just, Do the job and it can be really difficult. man, and not enough people speak openly about it. So I'd like to, thank you for, giving me an honest answer.

Zoe:

that popular. Like I, I think we've, we give our team a lot of, would call it rope, right? I consider working from home rope. That's not that can't be the the rule. It should be the exception. And they, and there should be some gratitude there because. From home enables you to, have a dog put your laundry out. there are a whole lot of things that you are able to do with that said, rope.

Aleyx:

Yes.

Zoe:

and I'm happy to provide rope. Have the rope have it, but then don't talk to me about your feelings. I would expect your feelings of feeling pretty good right now'cause you've been able to put your washing out.

Aleyx:

I spoke to, a few people close to you ahead of the interview, and we obviously talked about leadership and, how it's, how it's evolved. And Joe Beeth, who's the strategic advisor at Tag, he told me, and this, definitely does relate to how you've just, how you just answered that question.'cause he said she doesn't suffer fools and is not backward in coming forward with it.

Zoe:

That's funny. Yeah, I think like I probably could do with a little bit more gray, and I think like our clients and our team will always say, they'll always, be shocked by my, at my attitude or, the, or what I say. I say what I like, what I think, and I say the meeting like there's no with me, there's no be, there's no meeting before the meeting and there's no meeting after the meeting. It's in the meeting. We're all in the meeting. We're all doing it together. this is what it looks like to be a team. that is, could be uncomfortable, right? Or I might objectify like something or someone in a marketing sense. That might not be completely, in, in marketing, not everything is you're basically being, you're asked be like objectify, right? So we have to make a judgment call on whether or not person is the right brand ambassador for this business, whatever it is. Because we're, trained to be. Politically correct, right? We're trained to skirt around the edges and not say things that we think and things like that in for fear of offending somebody. I think when I say things, I think people are a bit surprised. it's never an offense but it's just faster gonna faster everyone just say it out loud, hurry up it, let's have, think, let's put our.

Aleyx:

So is that what really drives you then just thinking of that end result and the outcome and just thinking, we're gonna get there faster if we just lay it all on the table?

Zoe:

yeah, I think, yeah, think so. I, was actually it was interesting, a lot of what we do doesn't necessarily mean digital marketing. It could just be traditional marketing, right? And, a lot of it means that there is an omnichannel experience, which means. Is might be retail, it might be, an activation, it might be digital, it might be all of the above. And a client read just said to me last week, he's Zoe, I have never met a marketer more interested in the bottom line than you. Because I don't wanna just talk about brand, I wanna talk about brand as it relates to sales or how it relates to lead generation. I think marketers often get a bad rap for what I would call speaking shit, right? let's talk about brand and colors and brand identity and personas all day. It's like it's garbage if you're not, if you're not using it in conjunction with sales data.

Aleyx:

Yes. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. And then also, I've had this conversation as well with, one of my partners is, yeah, we generate the leads, but then what are we doing to help convert the leads? Because, you can generate lots of leads for a business, but if they've not got a way of converting them, then it's you almost.

Zoe:

Yeah.

Aleyx:

looking, talking to, others about your leadership style, they all had, a lot of nice things to say about you and it really built up a big picture for me. Every one of them said that you're extremely hardworking, and Joel actually told me that your hardest working person he's ever met. And Gary said that you lead with action and purpose and he says you just get shit done. But they also said that you've created this family feel around the office and you do nurture, invest your time in everyone. With, and it's clearly working.'cause I think they said the average is employees is about four years, which is quite high for an agency,

Zoe:

yeah.

Aleyx:

How does that make you feel hearing that?

Zoe:

I always feel a little bit uncomfortable taking. I don't wanna take responsibility for that. I, think, we're all responsible for making sure that our team. Enjoy being here, right? Like been to parties. I'm sure you have Alex, I know I I've come into an environment and no one says hello.

Aleyx:

Yeah.

Zoe:

to parties like that and as soon as I walk in there, I'm like, okay, I don't know anyone here, no one's talking to me. I wanna leave.

Aleyx:

Yeah.

Zoe:

I always want this to feel like the best party they've ever gone to. Without the, obviously without the party, right? I have this, like this thing, whenever a client comes in here and more often than not, like I'm the only person they've met at that point, or they've seen me online or we've met at a coffee shop, or I've gone to the, into their business. And then they find me in our office, right? And I get up and I'm like, hi, how are You coming in. And then I

Aleyx:

Yeah.

Zoe:

like, this is Alex. And then everyone knows, hi Alex. it's like a, and then the person you can see it, it, immediately disarms them because

Aleyx:

Of course.'cause you're making them comfortable.

Zoe:

we, there's a lot of things that, that people contribute. for me to set that up, everyone has to buy into that, right? So

Aleyx:

yeah.

Zoe:

have to buy into that. Have to, you you, wanna make people participate'cause it's like that's what it looks like. So I personally have an issue with it being described as a family because I think if my children and my husband and, maybe my, and obviously my friends who are like my family, I'll ask them how they're feeling. But with my team, like I'll say, how was your weekend? But our clients are paying really good money for us to do the job. They're not paying me to talk about their feelings.

Aleyx:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Zoe:

And a team like a team, like a sports team, they're outcome focused. How are we gonna get up the ladder? What are we gonna do to get there? Who do we have to who do we have to bring up and put more effort into if we see there's potential. So professional like that. And who wants to invest in themselves?'cause, in every player, in every team, in every sports team, there's, gonna be a player that is to retire. They're tired, they're not interested, that's okay. But working that out is a team. It's not so much a family.

Aleyx:

Yeah. Yeah. So do you take, you, you look, at the team and, see those ones that you know really wanna grow and, you nurture them and train and develop. Do you, you spend some time with the team in that respect?

Zoe:

identify it within 30 seconds of meeting them.

Aleyx:

Yeah.

Zoe:

I don't say that to be boastful. I just reckon 30 seconds. I know exactly when they walk in the door, they're a leader.

Aleyx:

What's a signal or a trigger for you that tells you that?

Zoe:

it's not just in that 30 seconds in, in a resume, and I look at, all the resumes that come through our door, I look for three things. Have they been in retail? They done hospitality They been a sports coach or player? Are they still invested in their health have they done have they been a squad coach? Have they been in their local football league? Are they in basketball? Like any, anything like that or combination of those or one of those, I immediately know, okay, they're set up for success,

Aleyx:

So the hospitality one's interesting. what's the take on that one? Why is that one important?

Zoe:

I think you all, you already know how to ask questions. It's the same thing as retail. When you walk into a retail or hospi or a restaurant, how are you feeling today? You're good at asking questions like you are making a customer feel like they're the only people in the room, Oh, have you had a busy day? can I get you a cocktail? Oh, Would you like a glass of wine? Anything like that. I think like it sets you up for success and it, you learn to practice like questions and listening to people. And actually for about 10 years between. Like uni and on and off. When I was on mat leave, like the same business, I was working for a retail store. It's actually around the corner from our office, and it's a it's one retailer. So they only have one store. It's called the antique silver company. They don't sell any antiques. It's actually just like it's gift wear, and gift wear and like, things like that, I can't under hard to, I say this and I think people don't believe me when I say it, but if people walk in that store and they say, Zoe where are you? who are you buying the present for? And I'll say, I'm buying it for Alex. And they'll say, oh, okay. Alex has already got the

Aleyx:

Wow.

Zoe:

green collection. Of this particular, mud Australia product or whatever, it's, she needs to start on the collection with it, which is the purple

Aleyx:

Wow. So they just know their customers at the top of their head. Wow.

Zoe:

know everything. And they, is handwritten. so they'll, take note of it, they'll hand write it, they'll, they can reference it if they need to, but they never do because it's all. They know their customer inside and out. They know that the customer, if someone comes in there and they say, okay, I'm gonna buy it for my Auntie Florence, right? They'll say, oh, didn't Auntie Florence just renovate her house? Isn't, I heard her house is now peach and not yellow anymore. That is like exceptional skills and that's what I look for in people. That's what I would call"A grade", but not everyone's like that. But that's what I, that's how I've been taught. Like what?

Aleyx:

Yes. Yeah.'cause in hospitality anyway, I've worked in hospitality a long time and I was backpacking and things and it is about making people comfortable and starting that conversation and, all these things that are important when you're dealing with, when you're dealing with clients as well. So that's a great tip for people listening. If they're looking at hiring people, have they worked in hospitality? I love that. A quick gear shift, LinkedIn. Who's winning the LinkedIn competition? You or Gary?

Zoe:

I would say I am, but it's,

Aleyx:

You are. I'd have to ask why and how are you measuring that success?'cause Gary would love to know.

Zoe:

We started doing it a few years ago, because we noticed that every time we posted something on LinkedIn, we would see like inquiry or we would get an influx of like resumes or whatever it is. So we started like talking about it more. We started talking about it more and then he and I started saying things like, okay, I think you should post about this, or I think you should post about that. And sometimes I would give him like a full like. Like a, basically a menu items of Hey Gary, I think you need to be writing about all of these things. then we turned it into a competition. And some years he wins. Last year I definitely won. You just know, like you just know.

Aleyx:

Gary said that you've tried to get other people involved, but it is, mostly just stayed the two of you for the time being. Is that right?

Zoe:

really think this is actually more of a female thing male thing. But it's really hard to people to talk about themselves. not natural. women, we are taught to be a courteous kind. self-deprecating. And if we're ever talking about the things that we do really well, it's often deemed as, boastful. Right now, I have never given that any credence whatsoever. I'm just like, in fact, last week. A couple weeks ago, I was sitting at a lunch with somebody and they said, I wanna introduce you to this client of his and here are the, problems that he's, he was telling me about it. Can you solve any of them? And I said, yeah, we can do X, Y, and Z. I'd have to understand a little bit more about A, B, and C. Okay. And he's oh, wow, speaking with a lot of confidence. And I said, we can either. Obviously we can do it or we can't do it right. I know we can do those things and we've done it for other clients and it's been a, real success. And he is he said something like, oh, it's boasting looks good on you, or something like that. So I said, yeah, it does look good on me. And I wore it as a badge of honor. He was like, oh, it's, boasting as if that's negative. And I bet you if I was a betting woman, he would not be saying that to a man

Aleyx:

I was just about to say that. Yeah.

Zoe:

Yeah, bro, mate. and instead for women, it's don't toot your own horn. I find that very frustrating. for women where I, try here, like we have a ch a channel in our channel Bella, and you Bella, other people's achievements or when we onboard somebody, we will say often are not gonna know whether or not you've done something really good, right? We're not we're not on every email. And your colleagues aren't on, on, either. So if you've done something amazing, put it in Bella, tell everybody and tell us how you've achieved it so we can all replicate it. So I'm trying to get people into rhythm of self balling because it's, if you're not gonna, if you if no one is gonna toot your horn, just do it yourself.

Aleyx:

Absolutely. Absolutely. and, not everyone's gonna do it for you. So, do, that yourself and going on the LinkedIn thing as well, as, a business owner, I, post on LinkedIn, it works for me and a part of I. My personal brand is honesty, just showing up and being honest. And I was out for dinner with, an old boss a few weeks ago and she said to me, I like the honesty approach, but there was a post the other week. I think I was just too honest. And I'm like, good. That's what it's about. That's what I'm putting out there. why should I have to hold back? It's, yeah. I think more of us should be doing it. Yeah on, on that confidence, I really wanted to dig deep, into confidence with you because, I, a few people that I spoke to did tell me that you are just a very confident person and I know. For many listeners, particular me as well, I've struggled with this in the past is that confidence. And, Joel said to me that you are not, oh, what was the word he used? you're not intimidated by anyone. So you can just walk into a room and win them over. And he, actually said, in fact, if there was a famous person in the room, you'd walk right over to them and say, Hey, I heard you're famous.

Zoe:

I've done that so many times. It.

Aleyx:

Yeah. then I brought up with your husband Dan, and he said, ask her about Tony Abbott.

Zoe:

That's so funny.

Aleyx:

I'd love to hear the story about Tony Abbott.

Zoe:

okay. okay, so for the listeners who were listening to this, who Dunno who Tony Abbott is, he was the prime Minister of Australia for a short time. And before that he was the I think when he was in the ab, in the, no, in the Howard government. I think he was the Minister for Health. I. Perhaps. so for a period of time, like on Australia Media, he was on the news. Basically every day. Anyway I was traveling with my family in Israel and we were sitting at the, in the lobby of the hotel and we're waiting for people to come and go and waiting for dinner. And I'm sitting with my aunties and my cousins and I look across the room I see Tony Abbott and I'm like, I think that's Tony Abbott. And was 21 at the time, maybe 22. I go over to, I go to over to him and I'm like, hi Tony. I'm Zoe. I'm from Australia. nice to meet you. And he is nice to meet you. So we had a bit of a conversation about what he was doing there and not what I was doing there. And what he was learning. Anyway, I sat with him for about an hour. Then, yeah, it was about an hour because we were waiting for everyone to come back and we were just like having a, I think just in the lobby, just waiting for dinner. By the end of that hour I had invited him to dinner with my whole family. And our whole family was like 40 people.'Cause we were there for a family occasion and I said come for dinner. And he was with a couple of other senators. For dinner, we'll make more space for you. Anyway, but at the end of the dinner, it was actually an amazing learning for me because by the end of the dinner he had remembered all 40 people's names, all 40.

Aleyx:

Wow.

Zoe:

And at, the end of the thing, he went around the room shaking people's hands and just saying nice to meet you Walter. So nice to meet you, mark. So nice to meet you. Like everyone, everybody's,

Aleyx:

Wow. And that kind of relates back to what you were talking about, the shop and actually listening, taking an interest, and he did the same.

Zoe:

it was pretty amazing. And then what was funny was that I had invited him for dinner before everyone came back. Hotel for dinner. So had 30 people come into the room and they're like, what is Tony Abbot doing here?

Aleyx:

So do you ever feel nervous, going up to her? Are you just yep why? why shouldn't I speak to Tony, but.

Zoe:

I've never had that. I dunno why, I think probably, probably a little bit of that wouldn't go astray every now and then. Like I have almost a, I don't know, I'd call like an overwhelming sense of confidence that i'll talk, I can, I could talk about things. I have no, idea about. Like I, I could, if I needed to, now I'm old enough now to know and that I, now I know now what I don't know or at least So either I choose to turn it on or I step be like, okay, I've now got like real experts around me who can come on in and, take the floor. But I've always just, firstly, I'm the youngest in my family, and by a long, like a long margin, so my brother's and nine and 11 years older than me. So every single, like family occasion, if someone, if, I needed the room to listen to me, like I've gotta make it known that people should be listening and why. So I think practicing like those behaviors at a young age was. Important, was probably where the foundation of my confidence started because I'm like, everyone look at me. I have something to say, even though I probably had nothing to say. I wanted everyone's attention. Like I was sick of everyone having adult conversations and not including me. Had to learn the adult conversation or I had to be entertaining.

Aleyx:

Yeah. Yeah. Love that. Has it ever gotten you into trouble?

Zoe:

Definitely, def definitely, I think firstly women typically are quite intimidated by me. I've had that feedback for 20 years. It's often easier for me to gain male friendship than it is to gain female. I have very strong cohort of female friends, so I'm, not devoid of them, but it is easier for me to attract like ma male, like male friendship than anything else. I think that, and yeah, like often I say the wrong thing or I do the wrong thing or, I think if people. Can see that your intention, that the intention is there, like that. if you ask what the intention is, always, positive, then usually it's fine.

Aleyx:

Yeah. I'd love to get your take. just from this conversation, I'd love to get your take on imposter syndrome'cause we hear a lot about it and o often in women. And I would just, I'd love to just hear what your thought is on imposter syndrome.

Zoe:

I'd really like it to be divorced from reality. I honestly, I can't stand it. Like I went to one talk recently and the, whole panel was around imposter syndrome. It's almost attractive to have it, it's like we have to say. Oh, I didn't think I was worthy, or or it was a little bit of luck or whatever it like, like no one is saying, you know what, no, this is fucking hard work. I've done all the research and planning for this. I have not slept in months and this is the benefit of the hard work that I have put in. it's. We, especially, I think particularly Australians, I don't see this as much in America, but Aussies, like we are so used to like taking people apart in tall poppy syndrome. That

Aleyx:

I hadn't heard that until I moved here. The tall poppy syndrome yet.

Zoe:

you, in order to not have tall puppy syndrome, you have to adopt imposter syndrome. So people don't put you on a peg down because you can do it yourself. No, you don't, even bother thinking that you are excellent. Because someone is gonna tell you that you've not as good as you think you are. And that's their opinion. By the way.

Aleyx:

exactly. Exactly.

Zoe:

opinion. I can think I'm fucking great and they think you can go and think I'm mediocre, but I think I'm excellent. I will, I'm gonna keep going. I just, I hate the, imposter syndrome shit. Gives me the.

Aleyx:

Yeah, same. And'cause I think and it comes down to that, that self-awareness and having that confidence, and I think in leadership and in business, you need that unwavering confidence to just keep going. And it's like that common saying, you know what they think of you as none of your business and you almost need to take, you need to take that on because. You're not gonna please everyone. Everyone's gonna have an opinion of you, but you've just gotta, keep going and be confident in yourself and your own abilities.

Zoe:

also think that people, when someone gives you a compliment, right? in our business it would be one of our designers, we can say, Hey Sophie, your designs have been. Instrumental in this campaign success. We know that because the click through rate, because of the designs have been X or Y right She could say, oh, it was, it was nothing. I, did, I don't think it was really me. Because that's natural for women and for Australians, but all we need to practice doing is just saying thank you.

Aleyx:

Thank you. Yep.

Zoe:

Thank you.

Aleyx:

Yep.

Zoe:

Nothing.

Aleyx:

Exactly. And I. Many people will be, will probably still be uncomfortable with getting positive feedback. I know it's something that I've had to work on early in my career. I would get that kind of oh cringe when I would get that, feedback. But I'm, definitely better now. I can say thank you, but for me it's also important to, I. Know where I can improve. So for example, every time I speak and people come up to me afterwards and I always like to hear what was missing or where I could improve.'cause in my head I'm thinking how can I make it better the next time?

Zoe:

There's that, are, beyond we are beyond feedback. Even if we do think we've done an excellent job, obviously everything we do, if you are not figuring out what the next 1% is, we are not doing our job properly. Everything, I like we, track everything here and. I benchmark myself in every conversation in every pitch, everything, and internally, like Alon and I were on a pitch this morning and then we got in the car and we both said, okay, what can we do better next time? But it's feedback. It's not feedback for the sake of feedback. with, with imposter syndrome. It's feedback for the sake of in, like increasing that increasing your stature or your expertise by 1%. Yes.

Aleyx:

Yes. Yeah. It's so important. I'd love to talk to you about, your, sales technique.'cause I've, heard a little bit about, I think it was Joel that told me, and it's obviously sales is, and building that instant rapport and trust with someone is something that you're very good at. And I'd say that sales is the backbone of business because if you can't sell, you're going to, you're gonna struggle to build something. So I think it's really important for everyone listening, whether that's, to the market or internally. What's your approach to sales and how do you think you can build that instant rapport?

Zoe:

I've been asked that question before, Alex

Aleyx:

Have you? Okay.

Zoe:

I don't, I dunno how to answer it. I like people, And I like spending time with people. Don't need, I don't, I have Alone time in my life, but I don't need it. And taught at school by a couple of teachers on. How to mimic behaviors. So a part of the, we call it the sales tactic, although it sounds extremely manipulative and I don't do it. I don't do it on purpose, but I can almost see myself doing it outside of myself where I will take. Parts of people's personality or their mannerisms in the conversation mimic them. And then immediately I can see they feel more comfortable because people like seeing versions of themselves in front of them. So if I can adopt one part of their behavior, even if it's small, it's always gonna make people feel more comfortable. and then I just, I suppose I ask questions and. Now we're at a stage in our business, thankfully, where we don't have to take every piece of business that comes our way, right? So it means that my confidence in our ability to deliver a piece of work and the confidence in our, like in our business to succeed regardless of whether or not that person is gonna hire us or not, is probably pretty attractive for the person talking to me.

Aleyx:

Yeah. Yeah. So it comes down to that again, that confidence and, yeah, belief in, what you say you can do.

Zoe:

so

Aleyx:

yeah. Yeah.

Zoe:

if they don't choose us, cool. That's great. In fact, I'd love to know how you go with the other agency or whatever, or if you desire to hire internally it doesn't work out. My number is always there and you can always pick up the phone.

Aleyx:

Yeah. So it's almost like that energy of we don't need this, we, you, we want it. But it's sometimes that desperate energy can come across too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This has been a great conversation, Zoe. Just before we wrap, I, I always like to do a bit of a quick fire round with the guests. So I'll ask you a couple of quick questions so you can either answer, avoid, or throw it back at me.

Zoe:

Okay.

Aleyx:

So who was the last person you text and what did you say?

Zoe:

the last person I texted was a client. Actually, I, have to look at my phone. And we were on a Zoom call with a, like a, tech provider and we were trying to validate whether or not we'd heard the same thing. So we are having like, conversation outside of the conversation. Yes. Yeah.

Aleyx:

Love it.

Zoe:

my text message history is always with a client. So it's client first,

Aleyx:

Love it. What was the last thing you said to chatGPT?

Zoe:

I do talk to it a lot actually.

Aleyx:

Yeah, I love talking to it. I feel like I might have a relationship going with chatGPT.

Zoe:

It feels really intimate. What did I say into it? It was question. I'm trying to remember. Oh, it's, oh, I know. Actually I was putting together a a post for LinkedIn, actually. It out, and I said I, I feel like there's something missing here. And it was about like trying to get some brand collaborations happening for our clients. So I was using it just to sense check my, like my, my thoughts.

Aleyx:

Yeah. Great. Love it. Podcast, audio or music?

Zoe:

I listen to a lot of podcasts at the moment. It's like way to learn. Actually,

Aleyx:

What's your go to?

Zoe:

I'm now listening to Emma Greed. She's the, in, like she's the founder of Skims and

Aleyx:

Oh,

Zoe:

Yes, aspire, yes.

Aleyx:

I, heard her on Diary of a CEO and they, and I loved her interview and when she said she have a new podcast straight away, I followed it. I love her. Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah.

Zoe:

says about the particularly what she says about working from home and the people with hustle and and, I like her commentary around, I wanna make sure I, paraphrase her well, but, The people who put in the extra mile will end up being rewarded. And it's not a, it's not something that you can really talk about because then people will be like, oh, I don't wanna work for hers. She's a workaholic. Or, I don't wanna have a work-life balance, but really the people who put in a little bit of extra, they do get rewarded. You see that everywhere.

Aleyx:

A hundred percent. A hundred percent.

Zoe:

said it. I loved it.

Aleyx:

Yeah. Yeah. No, she was great. I hadn't heard of her before I listened to that. But now, now I love her. All right, last one. What's your guilty pleasure?

Zoe:

I drink a lot of and a bit of whiskey.

Aleyx:

Whiskey, right?

Zoe:

I probably have dark chocolate, like not, guilty pleasure, but I ate actually fun day Lollies. The fun Day Suites. They're a client and I have them. Like more than once a day, a packet of those. And

Aleyx:

So that's where you get your energy from.

Zoe:

Yeah. And I take an hour for myself every day which is important to me. Like I do it, the, first hour of every day, like from six till seven Is mine. And I, religiously follow this rule because it keeps me sane.

Aleyx:

I think that's really important. As a mom, I'm the same. I actually get up at five 5:00 AM unless my kids are up through the night like they were last night and people are like, you get up at five. Why? I am like, because then I get Alone time and it sounds strange, but it sets me up for the day, which sounds similar. Four and two.

Zoe:

you desperately need it.

Aleyx:

Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. yeah. It's so important. I always like to leave just a gift for the listeners. And everyone that I spoke to about you said some version of this, that you invest deeply in your people and you do give your time and your energy. So I want to leave listeners with this is. What would you say to a leader out there who's holding so much to themselves and they forget to simply invest time in the team? what's the reminder that they need to hear now?

Zoe:

I think leaders often. And Gary, Gary tells me this, he reminds me of this often. So it's actually, it's not really mine, it's really Gary's. But to delegate and to trust your team, delegate, like it doesn't all have to be on you and. You'll end up feeling an enormous amount of pride when you can, when you see the, what's happened as a result of that. So I would say like just to learn to let go a little bit and that's a reminder really also for me.'cause that's often a challenge.

Aleyx:

Yeah. Same to me as well. But I think it's a great reminder. Thanks so much for Zoe for joining me. This was a great conversation. Really enjoyed.

Zoe:

you.

Aleyx:

Thank you. Bye.

Head Shot

Aleyx Ward

Host

Podcasts we love

Check out these other fine podcasts recommended by us, not an algorithm.