Naked at the Top

Why Growth Mindset Wins | Stephen Luxmore

• Paul Banks • Season 1 • Episode 11

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In this episode of Naked at the Top, host Aleyx Ward sits down with Stephen Luxmore, founder of Your HR Team, to explore how growth mindset, self-awareness and authenticity are redefining modern leadership.

From starting out as a gardener to becoming a respected HR consultant, Stephen shares how moments of doubt and stereotype shaped his purpose. He talks openly about creating psychological safety, breaking corporate conformity, and why simplicity wins when it comes to building a people-first culture.

Together, Aleyx and Stephen uncover what it means to lead with courage and kindness, how to stay authentic in a world of business buzzwords, and why humour, humility and curiosity always outlast control.

This conversation is packed with insight for founders, HR professionals and anyone leading teams through change — a reminder that leadership isn’t about power, it’s about people.

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Aleyx:

​Hello, and welcome to another episode of Naked At the Top. I am joined today by Steve. Hi. Welcome Steve. could you just introduce yourself and, the business that you work for?

Stephen:

Yeah, great to be here and thank you for the opportunity to come and chat to you. I, my business is your hr, so we do a combination of HR support and HR problem solving in businesses. we've also, got a HR system and platform that we roll out addition to that. So it's a combination of. Deal with, you know, humans in a workplace, around systems, policies, processes, all that sort of stuff. then systemising and automating our way out of it as well. So we sort of focus on more of the human interaction stuff as opposed to the, bogged down into the processy boring HR e stuff that people don't love. We try and automate as much as that as we can.

Aleyx:

Nice. How long have you, how long have you had the business for?

Stephen:

Business has been going about, probably it's over years. I'd have to look. It all becomes a blur. but yeah, I started out as a consultant, from a, from being a HR manager, you know, a medium sized manufacturing, installation company, people. And then jumped outta that into, consulting and just sort of one client led to the next. And here we are today.

Aleyx:

Just kind of all rolls into one.

Stephen:

Yeah,

Aleyx:

Builds up.

Stephen:

it becomes a bit of a blur. It's all been the same. A lot of it I look back at the work is pretty much the same. Humans are still humans, but it's just doing it in a different way and probably doing it a lot smarter and more effectively as well, which you kind of learn as you go to find better ways and smarter ways to do things.

Aleyx:

Yeah. Yeah. And um, I'm going to just jump right into it.'cause given that you've been in, in HR for quite some time, I'm sure you've got some, great stories. And as you know, I actually spoke to your wife ahead of the podcast and she said ask him about Christmas parties. So I'm just going to ask, ask you about some Christmas parties. Have you got any stories?

Stephen:

Yeah. Are we jumping straight into it?

Aleyx:

Let's do it.

Stephen:

Yeah, probably. Generally, like you think as a HR professional, you get invited to the,'cause we've got lots of clients. You get invited to the Christmas party. And you go there and you're like, ah, I'm sort of still on duty because people, there's almost a rule if there was a formula, more restrained the type of work. probably accountants fit into that example. If you're doing something that's quite processy and restrained and you tip alcohol. And fun and all that stuff into them. They tend to come out in lots of different directions and they're always, yeah, it's almost like a, ratio. The more constricted the workplace, the more control the workplace, stuff gets generated at Christmas parties. It's a combination of alcohol uh, pent up, conversations. And the truth just bubbles out of people. And it's not the truth sometimes it's just ridiculous behaviour. but it keeps us def definitely entertained that time of year for sure.

Aleyx:

I guess it's, yeah.

Stephen:

you go.

Aleyx:

Yeah. I guess just, letting loose, isn't it? It's that chance to let loose it. It make, when you were talking, it makes me think of, you know, growing up there was always a few people that have really strict parents and the kids that had the strict parents were the ones that often went the wildest.

Stephen:

Always, And it's like that's the real, like some examples would be probably the bus back from the event. So people think, oh, we don't want people to drive. Great, HR decision, right? But we're also putting at one or two o'clock in the morning together on a bus. With more alcohols.'cause people always bring the alcohol with them, don't they, from the event and it just kicks on. that is a absolute breeding ground of hr. So if anyone's out there going, what should, I shouldn't do it depends on what sort of event you want, I guess. But there's always stuff bubbling out of that. now I've had everything. I've had people. Yeah. Because they, they look at you and they say, oh, you are the fun police. You are here to make sure that, you know, everyone behaves. And yeah, but I'm having a night off. Like, I just want to relax. But some people have got stuff that they kind of project onto you. Like, it's like, I'm happy to have fun. Like I'll be the last one there. I'm happy to enjoy myself, have fun. Absolutely. and they almost try to prove to them you can have fun can enjoy yourself. You're not there just to like, make sure people behave themselves or whatever, but you end up getting like, dealing with all the stuff. You know, I'm thinking there's quite a few examples, but I'm worried there's going to be any that relate to specifically. I'll give you one, I'll give you 1, 1, 1 and hopefully this doesn't connect to anyone, but, and this is completely random. Maybe I'm just making this up as a fictional thing. No people involved, but, like, so way too much to drink. and then you get to a stage where you're then doing like a warning I do, and they like, they get drunk, they do dump stuff. And the best way to do it is to then go let them ponder their, because I like the, night of it will happen. They'll sober up or four days in. you go and sit with them and you don't have to say a lot. You just go, how did that go? How did Friday night go? they'll go,'cause they've had time to process it. It all comes back. They've re, they've reflected. And then next thing is, you think we should do? probably should ban me from alcohol from future events. Great idea. Maybe it probably justifies a warning. Some sort of warning. Good idea. So they've self-administered their own, through their own fame and their own reflection and that, and I did that, like that exact scenario. And then the next year, I actually forgot that,'cause I'm like having a couple of drinks. I said, oh, can I buy you a drink person? Like, are you trying to catch me? Like you trying to trick me into drinking? I'm like, forgot. I just forgot that was a thing that you were no longer drinking in any. And like work related social events. But he, he wasn't happy with me trying to trick him into like, like, but I was just naive. I just forgot.'cause you just don't remember a big conversation. Had everything from people wrestling, having wrestling competitions in the middle of, I'd say where, I reckon I could out wrestle you. And grown men in suits and stuff, wrestling each other, to

Aleyx:

It's bizarre. It's bizarre what grown adults do when they, when a few drinks are involved, isn't it? It's, almost like children again.

Stephen:

it's fascinating. It's almost like we're, the best analogy is like having a balloon, holding a balloon under underwater and suppressing people's natural communication, their natural behaviours There. Expression, and then you, that balloon can, you can only hold it under, water for so long, it just, you, let it go and it comes out. And that's what I always think. It's like, how do we actually more communication naturally effective ways, during the course of the day where, which all you know comes back to having good communication skills, self-awareness. All that sort of stuff. So it doesn't require getting drunk saying dumb stuff in the wrong context or doing dumb stuff because it comes out sideways. Like it often. It's the sideways stuff that, that we are dealing with. And,

Aleyx:

And that's actually one of the reasons, you know, for the podcast is how can we. You know, be more of ourselves, show that we're all human and, show up as ourselves in a still in a professional way. And that's kind of what you're alluding to there. So, you know, what do you think in terms of, you know, what companies and leaders can do in order to create that safe space where people can feel like they can be themselves a bit more?

Stephen:

Yeah, it's a great question. It's a great question.'cause ultimately. It is just being yourself and letting it be. but at first it really starts with self-awareness, really. You think about, well, people have gotta know about themselves firstly as a first thing. and then the organisation is giving the freedom to be themselves and not, like, I work with a lot of different companies and they almost become like little cults where you've got, they even look like the, founder. I know one where they've all got bald heads and beards and the family's got bald head and beard. So they, start to look like, so we often recruit in our own image and then people take, even take on the behaviours of the, leader. but I, think a lot of it, I know with my team, I always say don't do things the way I do it.'cause I might be like, the way I do it doesn't mean it's the right way to do it. Be yourself. Go into a situation back your judgment. You know, listen to your instincts. What's your gut telling you? What's your heart telling you? the best way out of this situation? Or to navigate the situation and be comfortable in your own skin? And that's a bit of a journey. I think that's, easier said than done. It takes a while to get there. but if you're not sure, then what do you do? You follow the way the leader does it. and it might not be the leader overtly saying, this is what we do and this is what we don't do. But it's the person kind of just following it because they don't know any other way. They haven't done enough introspection or self-awareness or self understanding to go, well, this is what I stand for, are my values. this is what I believe. So they, default towards what does a leader think? What does a leader behave? So I think there's a bit of both. Like it's a pull and push thing. I don't think it's necessarily the leader's full responsibility. I think it's up to everyone to do that work and understand that. but it's a great, yeah, it's a great thing to think about something I think about all the time. It's a great question.

Aleyx:

Yeah, it's, it is feeling safe to be able to do that. Like I spoke to Celine, who's part of your team, and, she actually said that, you know, Steven's really good at helping us just be ourselves and, you know, we'll, often create that space where we can just be ourselves. So I think you've certainly done it within your company, it sounds like. yeah. And I think it's really important.

Stephen:

It is nice to hear like safety is the number one thing, like people don't feel safe. to be themselves. Then they'll find that somewhere else as well. What are they going to do? Like you go, well, if I can't be myself here, I'll go somewhere where I can be myself. And which is why we end up setting up our own businesses. And because you go, well, this is me. It's like, take it or leave it. Um, I'm going to keep working on myself. Like I'm not apart from perfect, but this is me, but I'm not going to into something. That you want me to be? Because it's so much work. It's just constant effort, isn't it? And you would've had that as well, like coming from previous roles where you know, you have to fit yourself into a box, but you don't actually fit.

Aleyx:

Absolutely. And you start, you actually,'cause I did. And you actually start losing sight of who you are.'cause you're like, if you morph into all these different things, you're like, oh wait a minute, who am I? And then you've gotta kind of unpack that. But when I, did speak to Celine, she described you as very quirky. so you're obviously differently just yourself. and I said, well, I said, tell me, what do you mean by quirky?'cause that could be any number of different things and she said he's got lots of strange analogies. So, I mean, you've already we're, what, 12 minutes in? You've already told me an analogy. It wasn't strange. I, it made a lot of sense. But I'd love to hear a couple more of your strange analogies please.

Stephen:

Celine's listening, they're not strange, Celine.'cause she, because I use so many analogies, what I try and do is go, in my defense, I try and paint a picture of a complex thing in a simple language. So like, for example would be, you've got all this HR stuff going on, but it's like building a house. You've gotta have a solid foundation before you start worrying about all this other stuff. So I try and bring it, almost paint a picture and celine's like another analogy, but in, you know, if Celine's listening, what about you with your saline? Combines something with a vegetable, it'll be a, a good potato or a silly pumpkin. So she combines an adjective with a vegetable. So Celine, It's great. Back at you.

Aleyx:

Well, talking about that's a great segue, Steve, talking about vegetables. you were a gardener in another life, weren't you? So what made, what made the leaps, from gardener to hr? what, happened there? What happened between?

Stephen:

I always loved nature. I've always had a connection to nature, from being like young growing up, going out in the bush and all that sort of stuff. And I just become a bit of a plant nerd. Like I can still walk through the botanic gardens. I love being in the botanic gardens and just I walk through and go, oh, that's CIA Melon Oxland. And I know all their, botanic names. I'm just a, it's just something that's connected in my brain weirdly. but I did that for a while when I was younger, like, seems like a lifetime ago. Now, but I found that I really liked people and some people that work in those roles, they kind of do it'cause they can get away from people. And I was always a bit of a chatter box and wanting to understand people. I was probably drawn more to the people side and then I ended up in sort of combining that and then I really went well. I love doing the hr, the people side of it. Imagine if I could do that full time. That'd be so cool. And then it led me to go back to, university a, adult. And I remember like, here's a story for you. I remember going tafe, so I grew up in Keysborough and I thought, I want to study hr. And I was working as a tradie, so I'd be out doing landscaping, tree lopping, all sorts of stuff. And I went, this HR stuff's really intriguing. I want to learn more about it. And I rocked in with my overalls on. And the person said, oh, sorry, you're in the wrong building. I said, I know why. And I said, look, I'm did. I'm here to do the hr. I said, no, trade. The trade building's on the other. And she was directing, she was walking with me and directing me back to the trade. And that really motivated me. I went, love it when people do that. They've

Aleyx:

Hundreds.

Stephen:

a stereotype. It's

Aleyx:

Yeah.

Stephen:

people, I can't be doing. I was doing like a cert four. In HR and doing my other stuff, and I went, you've actually really motivated me to do more of this. Now it's like, you know, you aren't saying I shouldn't be doing this. Why shouldn't I? Why? What's the assumption that you have about this stuff? But it's like an office person's role. And I've always, gone back to that to go, I could have taken that as a thing. Well, this is not for me. But it actually gave me a bit of motivation to go, well, you know, I won't swear, but internally it was like, you know, who are you? Can

Aleyx:

Yes. Yeah.

Stephen:

assumption?

Aleyx:

It's funny, those moments when you, in hindsight, you go back and they're actually the catalyst of where you are now, and it's, it's that motivation, isn't it, that takes you to that next step.

Stephen:

For sure. It's even to prove them. Yeah. Something about proving, I don't know what it is, but it's fuel. You

Aleyx:

Yeah. It's,

Stephen:

as a, heard this thing is like, it's, there's two ways you can look at situations. There's either a setback or a turning point and you go, is it a setback? You go, look, I'm just going to go back and do what I was doing. Or is it a turning point to use it as a positive, way to move forward in life?

Aleyx:

And it's, and, that comes down to your mindset as well, right? Because that could have been, you know, if that was someone else like that could have deterred them and put them, you know, put them back into doing something different, but it, was fuel for you. So I think it depends on the person as well and the mindset of them at that time.

Stephen:

Yeah. It almost goes back to what we were talking about before, about being put in a box. Like where Yeah, it's like putting, go back in your box. It's like, no, I don't want to, I don't want to sit in that box. I actually want to learn, I want to grow, I want to experience new things. and that's one thing I would say about Celine. I was interested to, spoke to Celine. it's that concept around a growth mindset. I was actually chatting to her this morning and she's got an amazing growth mindset, and I reckon that is becoming so important in today's world. It's the ability to, grow, change, learn, evolve, adapt that some people have and some people just don't. It's really becoming more and more of a thing. Yeah. I, think it's going to be the future. I think the growth mindset is be, is going to become essential part of being in the workforce. It's got nothing to do with age. Age is just a number. But do you have a growth Mindset is going to be the big thing I reckon.

Aleyx:

And can you train it? You know?'cause with some people it'll just come naturally. Some people are naturally curious. Some people naturally want to grow and adapt, but with others, do you think you know that you can train that growth mindset?

Stephen:

a great question. It's the whole nature nurture. Where does, yeah, where does it come from? Why, like why back in that situation, you know, like I could have gone, I know, I'll go back to my box or, why. It's a really good question and I would love, the optimist in me would love to say that everyone has that in them to grow. I think it's a natural, to me, that's where human happiness comes from. Like happiness is, to me, growth change, adventure learning and pain suffering. Misery is being that sense of stuck or that sense of. Feeling rigid in life where things are not evolving. you're repeating, it's like Groundhog Day. You're doing the, same stuff all the time. And I think as humans we're, I don't know, but I think everyone's different. And I don't, people are happy doing the same job, you know, like my dad worked in the same, company he worked for General Motors, Holden Holdens, and he rocked up every day. And just loved it and did the same job. And to this day he is passionate about Holdens and all that sort of stuff. But he was really happy doing it. And I just think, yeah, I don't think it's a right, right and wrong thing, but I think some people have that growth, mindset. I just keep coming back to it'cause it just keeps coming up. because we think about, you know, all this stuff about Gen Z and Gen Y and to me that's like. Horoscopes. It's like pigeonholing someone based on their, what era they were born in. And I think the world's more, I think people are much more nuanced than that. I've always looked at that stuff and gone, you know,'cause I'm Gen X, does that define me as this personality? It's like saying, well I'm a Scorpio. Does that make me, it's sort of like a simplistic way of to define people.

Aleyx:

Although I am a Scorpio and I do live up to the Scorpio traits.

Stephen:

Yeah. Well, I, yeah, which is the, what You have the sting in the tail if, when it happens.

Aleyx:

In me. Yeah.

Stephen:

Yeah, I've got that

Aleyx:

Don't, cross me, Steve.

Stephen:

I'll remember that. yeah, think having, I done this work for a long time. I really think we need to reframe, that concept of, Are people? Are people, do they have a growth mindset? And are you prepared to learn, change, grow, do the introspection, do the work? like I, I work with some, older business owners and they just, some of them are just like, I just, they just can't keep up with it, the language. So the language evolves. There's things that they can and can't say, you know, all this stuff, all this woke. They go, you know, it's all this white bullshit. I dunno, I'm scared about talking to my people'cause I'll say the wrong thing. and it's almost too hard. They're all just a lot of them thinking about retirement and going, yep, I'll just get my caravan. I'll just basically tap out. It's, overwhelming for them, like Yeah, but you just evolve, you, you evolve your language. You, you evolve your understanding of why is that in place? what is the, what's the underlying principles around respect and how do people want to be communicated to, it's not just shutting it off, to then saying, look, it's all just, it's all just bullshit. just going to shut my mind to it, as opposed to, how can I learn? Develop deeper understanding of people's differences, and respecting that and understanding the nuance of people takes effort. Growth and learning and change and all that sort of stuff. So

Aleyx:

and I think it's also about being transparent about that. I think, you know, sometimes like, oh, I, I just don't understand it. So you shut down from it. But open up the conversation and just say like, look, this is, you know, this is different for me. I'm. You know, I don't understand it all, but you know, I'm, willing to learn. I think sometimes we're scared to say that I don't get everything that's going on. It's like, that's okay. Let's have a conversation about it. and and that's how you learn and adapt. I've actually got an analogy for you as soon as you're like, and.

Stephen:

I love an

Aleyx:

and it's around that kind of growth mindset or if you're sta stagnant and it's not mine. I heard it on a podcast, but, it was talking about, you know, growth and flowing. It's like a river, you know, it's constantly flowing and then it's that really clear waters. We continue to grow and evolve, whereas if we stay stagnant and still and don't grow and don't move, it's kind of like a murky. Pond that sits still and it gets, you know, layers of algae and dirt and things like that.

Stephen:

And you say that I feel, yeah. You feel that sense of stagnation and

Aleyx:

Exactly.

Stephen:

It's

Aleyx:

Yeah.

Stephen:

of happiness in

Aleyx:

Yeah. So there we go. Another analogy for you to, take to.

Stephen:

Yeah, ce. I love it. I'll ring her after this and say, it's all about the river. Celine. She'll go, whatcha talking? Steve? I.

Aleyx:

So going back then, so you moved from gardener to hr, and then Fiona, your wife Fiona, was telling me that you actually, when you, were in the backyard when you dreamt up the idea of your, business, which I really like, given that you were a gardener and you were in the backyard. So can you take us back to that moment when you were in the backyard and you were thinking about your business, like what, what was happening, what was going on in your, in that mind of yours?

Stephen:

Haven't thought. Yeah, I'll have to go back mindset. It was probably coming out of a, being a HR manager in a really challenging a lot of moving paths, amazing business and working really closely with the owners of the business and getting mentored by them. Like, it wasn't obvious, but I kind of watched for probably six or seven years around how to run a business. So it was really. Everything you could imagine that gets thrown at a, business with 150 people in it, and you've got a combination of manufacturing people. You've got the whole cross section of humanity. You've got the operations people, you've got the, like the, you've got the admin people, and then you've got the owners of the business who are, and there's the whole dynamic and mix between all that. We had every scenario thrown at us that you could imagine from. issues to people, issues. felt like I just, I'd been to war almost and I felt like I, whatever anyone threw at me, I could deal with it. I'd be like, yeah, I know what to do. And the owners of the business, I got to a stage where I just wanted to consult they were really good in terms of opening up an opportunity and said, Steve, we don't want you to go. And I said, well, what if I work four days a week? And I stepped on what I'm doing, save you a day, I'll pro write on my salary. that day, I just had a void intentionally created a void and I just went out and helped people. I remember going out and talking to, a guy that had a, catering business, and I said, I'll do your HR stuff. He's like, what's that? And I said, like, employment contracts and deal with people. He goes, I've never heard of that, but it sounds great. I just did it for free. So because I was getting paid and obviously having kids. Mortgage, all that sort of stuff. So there was financial pressures. So I went and just spent that day just helping people with their businesses for free. And that was, fun. Like that was just going out there and, I said, look, I'll help you, but give me in exchange for that. Can you gimme a couple of referrals? And they're like, of course. So they gave me referrals and when I got a referral, I'm like, I'm just charging this person. And that started the consulting and then it just grew and it grew to a point where we ended up putting in a full-time HR manager, sort of. and we still do work for that company, if Fiona actually still does first aid training, for that company, I still know and respect the people behind the scenes, which is light of doors. I give'em a plug. They're an amazing business. directors of that, and Nick Dickens, who's still one of the owners of that, and Peter Hughes was behind that as well. massive shout out to those guys. It was a huge stepping stone into what I'm doing

Aleyx:

Amazing. And they were really supportive of, you, you know, going out and doing that. which is fantastic.'cause that can be hard for people as well when they're starting out. If, their current employer's not supportive.

Stephen:

well, it's having the brave conversation, isn't it? It's what do I really want? And being able to open it up and have that conversation. But to answer your question about sitting in the backyard, and I thought of names, I thought I had Steven Lux more consulting. I thought, like I want it to be bigger than that. I want it to be not about me necessarily. And I thought, well, it's your HR stuff and I just Googled your HR and there was nothing there. And I went. It's making it about them. It's your hr. I want this to feel like even your HR system has their branding on it. It doesn't have our branding. So when they sign up to the platform, the first thing they do is they put their logo on it. your HR system, it's your, we're here. It's about the giving of it I think really resonated with me, and being helpful. Get like seeing it up where it's, yeah, and that kind of resonated, I thought. Well, and then out pretty well with the Google stuff as well, because you type in HR team, it comes up because of the alg, you know, whatever's going on in the background of Google. And people dream out names of businesses and they're they go, oh, my business names this. What does that do? And almost simple, you know, I've come from, you know, being a tradie, keep it simple. Your HR team, what do you do? Well, your HR team, you know, it's pretty obvious. If you can't get that, well, you're in trouble. You.

Aleyx:

I'm all for the simplicity that, yeah, we, Like to overcomplicate things. it's the same in marketing, in messaging. Like a lot of people's message becomes diluted'cause it's just over complicated and it doesn't need to be. So you, what, I, do you just work across industries? What kind of tech type of companies do you work with?

Stephen:

we cross every Indus industry. We love it. There's a, there's 121 awards in Australia and they were written in the 1950s and they're like, being too negative on fair work. If anyone from Fair Work, we love fair work. but they're written by people in the fifties around. A typewriter, like people using a typewriter or a fax machine, they updated it and then we interpret that into the modern workplace. And you look at some of the big supermarkets, they're in some major. Having some major issues right now around, underpayments alleged, underpayments, if you Google some of the big supermarkets, see what they're doing. There's so much complexity around award interpretation, pay rates, all that sort of stuff. we've got an amazing team, like people like Laura reads the Fair Work Act on the Weekend for Fun. So it's, being HR nerds. We can cut across any industry because once we know the patterns, we don't care. Like we know what the,'cause Fair work is a national harmonised legislative framework in Australia. we know the principles underneath it. So we're not scared of jumping from an architect to an accounting firm to a, you know, whatever. It doesn't really matter for us, because we're across all of them. But you have natural, like I have clients that I have a natural inclination for when they sort of overlap stuff. I'm, particularly passionate about, like, there's clients that like, make chocolate or there's clients that, grow trees or, you know, and you ha you find yourself drawn out of curiosity. And when you overlay multiple passions of different things, that just makes it so much easier to connect and be able to have conversations with, like Celine, for example, come out of hospitality. And then she really has a connection to retail hospitality'cause she's lived it. I think when the consultants have lived a path through a, type of industry, it makes it so much easier just to cut through all the bullshit and say, I know what you're experiencing, but I also know all the other stuff as well.

Aleyx:

Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. So you said, I think it was in the, form before the podcast, you said that, HR is really just shorthand for helping people at work. So it'd be good just to get an idea of like, what does HR mean to you and what do, what does it involve? Because sometimes HR can get a bad rep, right? So what does it, mean to you?

Stephen:

They do. They get a bad rap and it's justified. So HR people can be an out. If you're out there listening, I do love you all, but. But it's a tendency, and I'm president of the Melbourne HR Network, which is connecting hr. so I help every month we have monthly meetings with all HR professionals. but one of the things we've gotta be better at as a group is rather just saying no or being too risk adverse. because we work with a lot of commercial businesses, and as a consultant, you need to get an outcome. What's the outcome? What's the business looking for? what's, the ideal future state, and how do we help get that into place rather than saying, I know you can't do this. No, there's a policy for that. I know you shouldn't do that. it's a, default, which HR gets all these, like, you know, human remains hardly required. You know, there's a whole lot of negativity for HR people, but I actually think we've gotta be better. I think we've gotta take that on board and as an industry, be better at what we do and find a way and go, yep, I hear what you're saying. How do we get there? Look, there are these risks, but we need to accept. There is an element of risk, we've still gotta get the outcome, and I reckon they miss the outcome part. The two become too focused on the minutia. People go, oh, I went to HR and the person just gave me all these forms to fill out. and often they can side with the, leaders and they become a pseudo, representative of the leadership regime. And we have a very, simple philosophy. And if you spoke to so about we just follow the truth. The truth is the leader is the problem. We hold the mirror up to the leader

Aleyx:

So how do you do that in practice? That must be tough.

Stephen:

I, I actually enjoy it because I think that's where the biggest lever are to pull on a business occurs because the leader will say, oh, my people are this, my people are that. The systems are rubbish. It's blame. Then you go, well, if you're in a supermarket, I'll give you, I'll give Celine's listing. Here's another analogy. But if you're in a supermarket and the kids. throwing lollies on the ground and being disruptive. Do you go and yell at the kid or do you yell at the parent or talk to the parent? Let's blame the parent first. Right? And I always say, you are the parent. You need to take responsibility. What can you do better? It's not about blaming them because you have the next person come in. Blame the systems and the leadership first. That's the first thing. If someone leaves, someone's underperforming, hold the mirror up. And I find that I've got relationships that go back decades, a decade I've done that and I continue to do that because I don't like it because the moment, but after, over time they realise that they're not perfect. And they were those words echo in their head. But it is gotta be the other. The other thing to do is be ready to jump. As a consultant, I've always got my bag packed in my mind because I'm going to tell you the truth. If you don't want to hear the truth and you're not prepared to have a conversation, and I might have got it wrong, so challenge me. But if you're not prepared to weigh into a conversation around this topic, I'm not for you and my team's not for you. My team have walked, we've sack, we've sacked clients

Aleyx:

I was going to ask if you, if you had that before.

Stephen:

Yep. When it, when there's a misalignment to our values and they don't get it, we're go in hard and say, look, don't say hard. We just go and tell'em the truth as we see it. and we back ourselves. And if they go, no, look, that's fine. We go, okay, maybe you need to find another HR provider because you're not for us. And that makes our life so much simpler. Like, our clients are amazing. because you end up with better clients. You end up with clients you align with. You don't just sell your soul to like,'cause you've got financial pressures. You've got, I've got a team with payroll. Payroll happens every two weeks and there's temptation is, oh, but they pay us this money. That's a trap. That is an absolute trap because it's a dead street. that's probably the biggest learning for me in the last few years is the, values are non-negotiable.

Aleyx:

Because I guess you, you'll get the better outcome, right? Because if you do stick with that client that's not willing to listen to the truth as you see it, then they're not going to get the outcome they want. And then you, know, you're not going to deliver the best outcome. So it's a lose for everyone really.

Stephen:

it is. It's not saying we are the, bringers of truth. Like it's not like, it's not that.'cause the truth is often'cause we're doing, like we're doing sexual harassment investigations. We're doing bullying investigations. And to me, there's three versions of the truth. There's, there'll be your truth, my truth, and the truth. But if we don't talk about it, we are not going to get to the truth because everyone's getting defensive. They're posturing, egos come in. and I think lead leaders lack vulnerability. I really love the Brene Brown stuff around leadership is about being, is not about being the smartest, loudest. person in the room who's got all the answers. It's the person who's prepared to be a bit vulnerable, say, I'm not perfect. How do we work on this together? And I think leaders have got, you know, we can say HR has got some work to do. They definitely do. And I fully accept that. but also from a leadership point of view, it's, leaders being a bit more vulnerable and accepting that they're not perfect. You don't have to be perfect.

Aleyx:

Yeah. Yeah. Have you seen much of a shift, you know, in the last few years with, you know, with everything about vulnerability, and authenticity? Have you seen a shift, with leaders or do you think there's still a long way to go?

Stephen:

I'd love to say yes. but people are people. I do, I, work really well with women. All my team are women. Lot of my, most of my friends are women. Our clients are women. So I think women have a natural, and I know, you know, we don't get on gender stereotypes and all that sort of stuff, but I think men have got, some work to do around, particularly the middle-aged man in a leadership position. I'm putting myself, I'm a middle-aged man in a leadership position, so I'm maybe go it myself here. there's some work to do around that you're not perfect. And you can grow and you can learn, you don't necessarily have to get your way. having a conversation where with a team member today, they almost behaved like giant toddlers

Aleyx:

I've seen it.

Stephen:

and you're dealing with giant, a giant toddler with a lot of power. that wants to get their way and they'll throw a tantrum, they'll use emotional manipulation. They will pull at every lever they can pull to get their way. and that's where, again, comes down to self-awareness and being open to influence, I think is huge. I, think if I was going to give, I've got kids and if I was getting one thing. For a leader, like someone starting out brand new, be open to be influenced. Say, I know about accounting. I'm going to go talk to an accountant I don't know about hr. I'm going to go and talk to them. I don't know about marketing. I want to go and find out from someone. I don't have to be the expert in everything

Aleyx:

Exactly.

Stephen:

and open yourself up to other people. But that takes the vulnerability. So, but if you're not doing the vulnerability part, you're not open. But then it goes back to the growth mindset stuff, doesn't it? So you're not growing, so you're stuck and then you get frustrated and then you blame people. This person's rubbish. Like you can't get good people. But it's not them. It's actually, it's more looking internally.

Aleyx:

So how have you done that on a personal front? How have you done that over the years? To look internally and, be able to, you stay calm in those scenarios and be open and vulnerable. Is there, do you have practices and things that you do to get there?

Stephen:

Yeah, think, thing or the most effective thing is having people around you who will call out bullshit people who. challenge you and say, Steve, don't agree, like Celine going, Steven, his stupid analogies and all that sort of stuff I think is really important. I think it's having combination of, people around you that are prepared to challenge you, also it's, doing certain practices that open you up to experience that, I think is really important. So I think there's a combination of the, I wouldn't put it down to one, I'd put it down to. having a range of things that will open yourself up to allow that to occur. But, I think if I was going to pick one, I would say people around you that are prepared to tell you the truth and challenge you and confront you over things and then, but they're not punishing them for that. Leaders HR people can do that. People can tell the truth in the organisation. And they're doing it at their risk. They're not. They're doing it at a personal risk because they've gotta go and find another job.

Aleyx:

Yeah, it comes down to having that safe space to feel like you, you can do that as well. yeah, this has been a really great conversation, Steven. We're coming towards the end of it and I I always do a quick fire round, before the last question. So we're on the quick fire round. Fire round now, so just. First thing that comes to you. so what's one value you'll never compromise on?

Stephen:

Yeah, it's a good question.'cause there's a few,

Aleyx:

You've gotta pick one.

Stephen:

well, I've actually got, yeah, well my, I've got a couple on my arm tattooed on there for a reason. But, for me, what I've got on, my left arm, which is

Aleyx:

Can you show us?

Stephen:

I have to pull my. Can see that.

Aleyx:

Oh yeah, love truth, love and truth.

Stephen:

So

Aleyx:

Ah,

Stephen:

one is about, well it comes from of teachings of the Raji and which is, he said, love everyone and tell the truth. Life will be simple. can't always do that, but it's care for people and tell the truth. So if you, do it from a place of caring, and I'll put that on my arm'cause it's easier said than done.'cause people that you really care about, it's, often hard to tell them the truth. So that's why I've caught it on my arm because it's a really, hard thing to do. And on the other arm, which is be here now. so that's a reminder of to be in the moment, not always worry about the future. We're often either planning for the future or worrying about the past and we neglect. The moment that we're in and the people that are around us and just experiencing that. So I have that on my arm and I find myself something or going, oh, what about this next week? I've got this. I've got this. Be here now. Be here now. And it's just a really, it's a really simple way connect my brain back into the present moment and life will be fine. So they're, absolutely non-negotiables because I've got them ed on my body. So I'd be a bit of a, I don't know, like for me it's like I did it, not because I'm saying I'm, you know, great at those things, but I want to be better at that. It's a

Aleyx:

a great reminder. Yeah. It's really hard. it is really hard to be, to stay present, but when you are present in the moment, actually you can't really be anxious or anything when you're just in, in the moment. I dunno if you read the Power of Now, but that book was just, ground groundbreaking.

Stephen:

got told. Yeah, Now I'm a real bird. I've done a lot of reading, all this sort of stuff. I've read heaps of it. And yeah, it comes down to those principles of, living in the moment and not worrying and reminding yourself, as you say, it becomes a reminder because life is fine. Like in the moment you think about all the, I had someone come up to me and go, oh, all this, there's so much going on in the world, and there's this stuff in America, and there's, I see. Hang on, stop, breathe. What's happening around us? We live in a beautiful country. We are in a beautiful space. it's happening here.'cause we get so much stuff from social media and the negativity from news and all that sort of stuff that it's, focusing on what the positives are and what's, around us and the people around us as well.

Aleyx:

absolutely. It's one of the reasons I actually don't read or watch the news, which PE shocks people, but it's just that not good for my mental health, and I figure if something really serious is going on, someone will tell me. So keeps me safe.

Stephen:

myself off. Yeah, I'm still hooked on a bit of new, I watch a little bit of a bit of it, but I'd love to get to that space where if it's that significant, someone will ring me and say, Steve, you need to evacuate your building or. Or whatever because how much of it do you really need to know? Because how much can you control? I was having this conversation with one of my team members today around, there's a really cool concept in Buddhism around what you can control and what you can't. And there's four, four things. And the four things are being aware of what we think because you can't change what you think.'cause your thoughts will just happen regardless. So being aware of what you think. Be aware of your emotions. You can't change what those emotions are, but you can be aware of them and what you say and what you do. That's it. And you've got four things to worry about. I, so I try and in the morning I get up and I go, I've got four things to worry about today. I want to be aware of what's going on inside me and what's what I'm experiencing, but what are I saying and what am I doing and what other people do. I think Mel Robbins is good with her. Let them.

Aleyx:

Yep. I've read that one too. I read that one too. And I actually gave it to my husband to read and he's very much, he's not her target market, so when he was reading it, he said. No, he was like, disagree, agreeing with loads of stuff. But then the other day he said to me that he actually, quoted, it at work. I was like, well, something went in there.

Stephen:

Well, the, yeah, it's such a good, but the other thing, the other part that people miss is the, let me. And she said this, I know Robins have said, let them, which is about just let them do their stuff. But people always forget the next part of it, which is, let me respond in the way that is aligned to my values. It's the way I want to respond. I'm going to show up the way I want to be. I want to be myself. What we were talking about earlier. I'm going to be myself within the organisation. I'm going to take that risk to be myself. I'm going to let me respond. People always, it's all about let them, but it's Then what about, let me respond. I, I, yeah. I really like to remind people of that, because it's almost like can be let them be a dickhead or let them do dumb stuff or let them, I think that can be, I don't know, like it's not taking power back in the situation. It can be almost like a victim thing without the other part.

Aleyx:

I think the, let me part is actually the more important part. And when my husband was like, but wait, this, and I went, just wait till you get to the, let me part, just, read the damn book.

Stephen:

Well, the other, how do, I'm curious to see your husband. Yeah. How do we get more? For some reason my brain has connected with this stuff I've got a lot of, you know, friend male friends and I have conversations with him and they just like. don't want to know about this stuff, Steve. Like they're not as, where women, you can have more of a conversation that kind of goes like the full spectrum of stuff where guys, we can just spend so much time talking external footy work, politics, it's, external stuff. And I find, I sit there and I just go, can we just talk about. I'm happy to talk about that. I'm happy to have a laugh. You know, I'm happy to talk about all that stuff, but can we just weigh into the other stuff a bit? But I find with women it just becomes a natural, coming in and out, out of that, in and out of that, way of communicating that I've always been like that and, but I've never really, I thought, oh, maybe I'm a bit weird. But now as the world progresses, I

Aleyx:

like.

Stephen:

Yeah. I feel like if that's why weird, then I accept that. But I surround my, with my people are bit weird. Happy to have conversations that can be of depth. You know, people are confronted by that and they don't have the skills for that. That's okay. And we let them, not run into it.

Aleyx:

Let them, we're doing, Steve, we're not doing very well with my quickfire round. I could, I could, speak to you for hours, on this stuff'cause it's my jam. But, the next question, best analogy you've used recently.

Stephen:

There's so many. There's so many. Maybe I should ring Celine and say which one's the most, most annoying, probably one that comes up, and I'll actually use this one yesterday. Someone who's going through a bit of a challenging life situation is analogy of the surf beach. think of the waves crashing. So that's our emotions, drama life. There's always going to be waves in a beach because that's being human. But within a surf beach, you can dive in under the waves and you, and it's calm and it's always there. So there's this sense of calm that we forget. So it's diving in, but when you dive down underneath the waves. You can still feel the currents and mood stuff moving, but you look up and you can see the waves, but you're not getting smashed around by them.

Aleyx:

I love that. So it's all, the canvas is all within us, so we just need to explore that. Love that.

Stephen:

always there. It's always there.

Aleyx:

Next one, comedy, meditation, or music. What's your go-to Reset?

Stephen:

I think all of those, I think finding a way to laugh. I think you and I share a thing around like Billy Connolly and like I grew up loving Billy Connolly.'cause he was just being himself. He was just telling stories about his childhood and him growing up in the shipyards of, or growing up in a working class, grew up in Dandenong as a tradie. Like him growing up in that environment and, I, I think the whole soup of it, I think, yeah, not taking life to seriously having a laugh is the cure even in the most darkest of situations. And Fiona will testify this, I will find a way to make a joke of even the darkest, most challenging conversation in a way that hopefully doesn't come out bad. But it almost, it is just a reminder that, it's that, you know, it puts it in perspective, but, to me, probably humor would be my number one thing.'cause I think it's just at a human level. I know you and I have had that conversation. at a human level, it just cuts through and just calms the situation down so quickly. It's probably the, sharpest, quickest way. To cut through and, just settle a, really complex, difficult situation down

Aleyx:

I think that's why I love dark comedy so much. I'm a huge fan of dark comedy when done well, because there's always lightness, in darkness. Yeah.

Stephen:

There always is. There always is. But we get caught up in the, using my analogy, going caught, up in the waves and, but it's hard to see the comedy in that. but there always is. If you step back at stepping back from it and seeing it from a different perspective. so yeah. but I, think meditation, all that stuff is all, all, good and something that I practice, I've got my Buddha there in the background and that little book is Thick Nut Harm, which is a monk. He does some amazing stuff. also, like, there's some other stuff which is hanman, and like the Hindu stuff is pretty fascinating as well. For me, it's like opening up to, don't have a religious sort of, probably more on the about what, you know, what all that is. But I don't have a particular thing. I've grown up in a pretty agnostic, setting, but I've definitely got, as I'm getting older, I'm, realising there's more that meets the eye with all that stuff, which is probably a conversation.

Aleyx:

We're very similar. We're going to have, we're going to have a part two, Steve, because I've got a similar mindset around that too. alright, last one. What's something that's overrated in leadership?

Stephen:

Overrated in leadership, it's probably all the status, but if anyone's walking around with status at the moment, so status might be things you don't even realise that you're doing. So it could be the office, the way you dress your car. it's artificial. It's an illusion because it's not about the actual respect or the genuine respect you are getting. You are artificial status. It could be a title you think of amount leaders that put on all this stuff. I'm going to get the office, I'm going to get this, I'm going to get all this status stuff. That's probably the biggest, yeah, the biggest one for me is cutting through all that bullshit and just getting back to the realness of it. and I think the way that the world's going, like you look at social media and are becoming a lot more democratised and all that bullshit is starting to disappear. But, but getting rid of that is, I think is a good, would be a good start.

Aleyx:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. Well, I always have one, my final question is always, I like to see it as a gift to the listeners. So, I'll pass it on, if you will. So, looking back over your journey from gardener to founder, colleague to leader, what's one lesson that you can pass on to the listeners, for someone who's trying to lead with both kindness and courage?

Stephen:

Be helpful. Be helpful, find a way to be helpful. There's a thing I heard years ago, which is you can't change, you can't, it's hard to change everything, but it's do what you can when you can. Like it's being able to, like within your own power, do what you can when you can. And the other part is while you can,'cause you never know what the future holds. And being helpful and listening to people. and not just being a good listener.'cause good listeners can just absorb people's crap. I think being a good listener is a bit not always great, but, how do you find ways to be helpful with care? I think is if you're doing that and you care and you take time for people, be okay as a leader. you'll be, everything will work out in the long run. then you've gotta then set boundaries around that care, because then people can overstep that. And then you've gotta know what your boundaries are to limit that care that you offer as well.'cause you can't care for every situation and every problem and every person. And you've gotta do it in a way that's not damaging on yourself as

Aleyx:

Yeah, you gotta care for yourself too at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Well, that's lovely parting words to end on. Thanks so much for joining us, Steven. For the listeners, where can people find out more about, about you and your business and, we'll put the links in the show notes too.

Stephen:

Yeah, well, Selena and I are pretty, we're all over LinkedIn like a rash. We're doing a lot of stuff. last six months has been a bit of a journey for us in terms of getting our, going out from behind, doing a lot of one-on-one consulting to putting ourselves out there on LinkedIn. So there's a lot of stuff to connect with myself and Selena on LinkedIn. We did a lunch and learn yesterday where we're doing every, month come and ask us any question in the moment. And we love getting the questions live, which is really cool. Google, if you Google your hr, hopefully it comes up pretty quickly. We've got your HR system and your HR team. that's probably the easiest way connect and you can see how well the algorithm's working for us as well.

Aleyx:

Fantastic. Thank you Steve. Well, thanks for joining me and, enjoy the rest of your day.

Stephen:

Thank you and thank you for doing all the pre-work as well. It's really good to have the depth of, I love what you're doing. I appreciate, inviting me along and it's been really enjoyable,

Aleyx:

Thank you.

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Aleyx Ward

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