The Economics Behind Great Leadership | Seung Paik

Authentic leadership grows from the unseen parts of a life. In this episode, Seung Paik reveals the moments that shaped his identity long before he ever stepped into a leadership role. He shares the immigrant values that built his work ethic, the twenty-five years of military service that taught him discipline and humility, and the internal questions that guided him through purpose, crisis and transformation.

Seung speaks openly about identity over image, the privilege of leading others, how economics sharpens decision-making and the cost–benefit thinking that guides meaningful life choices. He explores the role relationships play in shaping markets, why transactional leadership falls short and how transformation always begins at the top. 

This episode invites you to slow down, go inward and see leadership as something built through service, gratitude, humility and truth delivered with compassion. It is a conversation for anyone searching for clarity, direction or a more authentic way to lead.

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Transcript

Aleyx: 0:05

And welcome to another episode of Naked at the Top. Today's guest is a retired US Air Force Colonel and award-winning educator, keynote speaker, and author of Leadernomics. This conversation is about leadership, legacy, and the power of showing up fully as yourself. Seung welcome to the podcast.

Seung: 0:25

It is great to be here, Aleyx. I just am so happy that we get a chance to talk.

Aleyx: 0:31

Yeah, so we met on LinkedIn of all places, and talking about showing up as yourself. You've got me roped into doing, lip syncing on LinkedIn soon. So what's, that all about? Where did, how did that come about?

Seung: 0:46

Well, first of all, I mean, to be honest, I actually enjoy lip syncing. I'm always singing and I'm always humming in the house. And, so I just kinda like my voice isn't that great. So Lips Sync is good for me because I can enjoy my songs without having to hear my voice. I can just lips sync it. but, you know, part of me just wanting to put that out there on LinkedIn, I think, to kind of create a little bit of a entertainment and stir is, you know, I, haven't been on the platform very long, but for the period that I've been on there, I can't tell you the number of times that I see people. is also why I love this, podcast and the, title of the podcast that you have. But I can't tell you the number of people that I run into with regard to posts. who just have a lot of concern and fear about just showing up, letting their hair down and just being who they are. you know, I'm in the leadership space, right? And so part of me, like being on social media isn't just about posts about what I think about leadership. It's about what are some creative ways that I can actually lead, foster people, influence and inspire them to do something that might be a little bit out of their comfort zone, it's going to stretch them a little bit and it's going to challenge them, in certain ways. And so I thought, why not? I'm going to lead the way. I'm going to put a couple of lip syncs out there myself. You know, I know my kids are like. Dad, that's so cringe. but, for me, like the more I can make my kids cringe, the better. and then I know that there's some people that are out there in my professional past that will probably look at my lip sync and be like, what is Seung doing? And you know what, that's okay because that's the whole point is actually trying to be that example in some ways. But then also just you know, let people know that hey, this guy, he's not some young, you know, gen Z guy. He's out there and he's doing lip sync and he is being silly and it's okay. And that's just a part of, I think me fostering that environment on my platform at least. and then also kind of welcoming and inviting other people, Hey, you can let your hair down. You don't have to be so polished. You don't have to have it all together and you can have fun. You can enjoy this time that you're on LinkedIn. It doesn't have to always feel like business.

Aleyx: 3:10

Yeah.

Seung: 3:11

yeah.

Aleyx: 3:11

Yeah. And I think that's, it's so important because people do feel like they have to show up in a professional way all the time. And from the leaders and business owners that I've interviewed on this podcast, I would say 90% of them have all told me that it's important to have fun in what you're doing. Otherwise what are you doing? And I think we can all relate to that in real life. But for some reason, when you get to something like LinkedIn or showing up at a networking event or something, you feel like you've gotta have this other you. And and, then that's when people I think, start to feel uncomfortable.'cause they're, not being true to who they are.

Seung: 3:52

yeah. I mean, you know, right. And I don't, deny the fact that I'm not like. oblivious as to think that perceptions don't matter, because they're going to happen, they're going to be there. and yet you don't want to allow the portrayal of image to precede identity, right? And for leadership, that's incredibly important because aren't dumb. They can see through, a polished image and recognise that there's some level of fakeness or inauthentic, insincere, approach. And so I think the more that you can be less compartmentalised, more consistent in who you are, how you are, how you lead at home, how you lead at work, how you kind of behave in community, think it kind of allows you to have a sense of freedom. In terms of how you lead and who you are as a leader. And so, for me, that's really important. I don't ever want to feel like I'm looking over my own, back at myself and checking myself constantly. no one should feel like that nor should have to live or lead in that manner. I think that's a very difficult way to live and lead.

Aleyx: 5:12

I love that. I know you've got your book Leadernomics, Seung, and we're absolutely going to get onto that. But first I'd love to just go back a little bit so everyone I spoke to ahead of this interview describe you as genuine, determined, and kind. Was this instilled in you from a young age, or is this something you've, kind of grown into?

Seung: 5:34

I think both. I think definitely. been born and raised from immigrant parents from Korea during the Korean War, they both experienced the Korean War. And they have, you know, my dad is now what, 80, going to be 88 this year, and still alive and well despite two heart surgeries. So it's quite amazing. going to be 85 their life has kind of been an entirety of sacrifice, discomfort, raising kids, working seven days a week. And so even without having kind of the parental child relationship that I think a lot of people envy, I would say that I learned just so much and took away just so much from their life and their example primarily of sacrificial service. Work ethic, just a dedication and a commitment to provide. and, you know, they gave up a lot of their own personal dreams, many immigrants do to pass those dreams onto their kids. And so, definitely those types of values of character, integrity, hard work, sacrifice, service, they were embedded in us early, by example more than by word. then my father was unique in that, as an immigrant from Korea in the early seventies, he, we kind of considered him a first wave of Korean American immigrants. He was so funny. He was the, in a, in a suburb area of Chicago. And there were no other, at that time there were no other immigrants that I can recall that were in our neighborhood, and you would see a bunch of cars on our street that were either Hondas or Toyotas, and then you'd come to the pack house and we were the only house that had two American made cars. And I remember just asking my dad at a young age, dad, how come we don't get like a Toyota or a Honda? And he's like. Seung, we're in America, we're going to, we're going to buy American cars. And, he just had this crazy sense of patriotism and has always had that. And it was through, I think, my father's kind of sense of patriotism and just love of country that, that really kind of bled into me, which then set a very strong, influence in how I made certain decisions going forward in my life from there. So, yeah, definitely values that came from home from day one. And not because they talked to us about it, but they really lived it out. And then I think the way my, life just kind of panned out from there, those values were just consistently instilled and then just fostered throughout.

Aleyx: 8:27

so was your dad a big influence in the reason why you decided to join the Air Force?

Seung: 8:33

He, was, I wouldn't, so part of it was the patriotic vibe that he had always. and then part of it was very pragmatic. being the youngest of three kids, they were immigrants. They worked seven days a week. And I had two older sisters. All of us are separated by three years. And so when I was getting ready to go to college, I was going to be the third one in college at the same time. And I do remember, finances were tough. and we made a visit. And you know, my father and I, we quickly found out that the school was fully funded by the government because it's a military institution. And so I remember him looking at me and saying, so what do you think? not only from a patriotism, and I love that school vibe, but also like, Hey, what, do you think about going to a school that's going to be fully funded by the government?

Aleyx: 9:30

Love that I'd, similar in a way I, so I am Scottish, brought up in Scotland, but my dad's English and I really wanted to go to university in England near him. But if you're Scottish and go to uni in Scotland, your tuition, you don't pay tuition fees. So my dad was like, maybe go to uni in Scotland and then moved to

Seung: 9:52

yeah.

Aleyx: 9:53

England. Okay. I get the hint.

Seung: 9:57

You know what, and you know what? You can't fault them, right. I mean, it, it actually, it just makes a lot of sense. But, but yeah, there, I would say that was, for them a small portion. It was actually, I felt even more obligated. I think I felt more obligated just'cause I kind of saw my parents' life and I saw my siblings and I just knew, just don't want to add to that hardship. So that was a, I think that was a little bit of a burden that I put on myself.

Aleyx: 10:21

Right,

Seung: 10:22

Yeah.

Aleyx: 10:23

and how long were you in the Air Force for?

Seung: 10:25

So the Air Force Academy itself was four years, and then the commitment, because of that government funded education, you had a commitment to serve on active duty for five years. and my plan at the time was to be five years and then go do something else in life. And. I literally blinked my eyes and next thing I knew, 25 years had passed, in the Air Force. And yeah, so between the academy and between the Air Force active duty, it was about 29 years of my life from the time I was 17 until I retired, military back in 2017.

Aleyx: 11:05

So what kept you there? You know, you were going to stay for five years. what kept you there for so long?

Seung: 11:11

well, I think it's twofold. One, I think definitely the sense of purpose, something that's, than yourself, right? you know, you learn pretty early, that. There is an aspect to the freedoms that we enjoy as a free country that aren't free, right? Somebody is protecting those liberties. Somebody is defending those liberties. And, you know, going back to my father, didn't speak about it often, but he did convey to us, Pretty strongly at, in, in some of his own personal stories of how when he was, in Korea during the Korean War and he was in North Korea, he and his brother fled. assuming that the rest of the family would join them in South Korea the rest of the family never made it. And so it was just him and his older brother had made it to the south together they were, on a refugee camp. And, their first experience with the military, with the American military soldier was on that refugee camp. And my dad recalls, the American GI approaching him, in uniform looking larger than life. And even though my dad was kind of afraid of who this person was, they approached him with kindness and candy he always says, with kindness and with candy. And there was just something about that moment that he just felt like they were delivering a sense of hope. To him, to his brother. And he's never forgotten that. And he always tells that story and whenever he tells it, there's always a tear in his eye. And he just always finishes by saying, I never forget that.

Aleyx: 13:03

Oh.

Seung: 13:04

and so had a, you know, in his heart to convey to me, when I was at the academy to say, Hey, son, you know, you don't have to be there. But the fact that you're in the military. Mom and dad are so thankful and our family as a, Pac family, we're so thankful because we just feel like there is this huge debt that we owe to the American soldier.'cause if it wasn't for America's presence in Korea at that time, who knows where Korea would've ended up, in that war and down the road. And so he made a very, strong emphasis that the liberties that we enjoy now as a family in America, the fact that mom and dad get to raise you guys here in a free land, that your sisters and you get to go and get a college education that came on the backs and the lives and the sacrifices of so many who were lost in the Korean War, 37,000 American lives that were lost in the Korean War. And so he made that, a very strong point of emphasis to me and to basically say that, you know, every day that you serve in the military. It's kind of like payback for our family and it's something that mom and I are so proud of, right. We really value that. And initially, Aleyx, it wasn't, it was his story. I didn't ever feel like it was my story when I was growing up, but then there did come a point when as he was sharing this story for the umpteenth time, something just resonated with me and it became my story too. And it became a story for not only our family, but for generations to come, in our family. So I've always felt that it wasn't so much a paying it forward as much as it was a paying it back and remembering, how we got to where we are and why we get to enjoy the freedoms that we do. And it's never. And so it's always been, for me, it's always been a privilege to be in the military. I appreciate it when people come up to me and say, oh, thank you for your service. And I'll look back and I'll look at them and say, well, you're welcome, but in my heart, and if I have the opportunity, I will always tell them, I gotta tell you. It's been such a privilege and it's such an honor for me to be able to serve. I've always felt that way. And I think that sentiment and that feeling has persisted with me, the 25 years that I was in the service.

Aleyx: 15:34

Wow. So it's very symbolic for you really?

Seung: 15:37

it's, I

Aleyx: 15:37

Yeah.

Seung: 15:39

yeah, I think it's not only symbo, it's just, And he just always finishes by saying, I never forget that.

Aleyx: 15:49

Oh.

Seung: 15:49

and so had a, you know, in his heart to convey to me, when I was at the academy to say, Hey, son, you know, you don't have to be there. But the fact that you're in the military. Mom and dad are so thankful and our family as a, Pac family, we're so thankful because we just feel like there is this huge debt that we owe to the American soldier.'cause if it wasn't for America's presence in Korea at that time, who knows where Korea would've ended up, in that war and down the road. And so he made a very, strong emphasis that the liberties that we enjoy now as a family in America, the fact that mom and dad get to raise you guys here in a free land, that your sisters and you get to go and get a college education that came on the backs and the lives and the sacrifices of so many who were lost in the Korean War, 37,000 American lives that were lost in the Korean War. And so he made that, a very strong point of emphasis to me and to basically say that, you know, every day that you serve in the military. It's kind of like payback for our family and it's something that mom and I are so proud of, right. We really value that. And initially, Aleyx, it wasn't, it was his story. I didn't ever feel like it was my story when I was growing up, but then there did come a point when as he was sharing this story for the umpteenth time, something just resonated with me and it became my story too. And it became a story for not only our family, but for generations to come, in our family. So I've always felt that it wasn't so much a paying it forward as much as it was a paying it back and remembering, how we got to where we are and why we get to enjoy the freedoms that we do. And it's never. And so it's always been, for me, it's always been a privilege to be in the military. I appreciate it when people come up to me and say, oh, thank you for your service. And I'll look back and I'll look at them and say, well, you're welcome, but in my heart, and if I have the opportunity, I will always tell them, I gotta tell you. It's been such a privilege and it's such an honor for me to be able to serve. I've always felt that way. And I think that sentiment and that feeling has persisted with me, the 25 years that I was in the service.

Aleyx: 18:19

Wow. So it's very symbolic for you really?

Seung: 18:22

it's, I

Aleyx: 18:22

Yeah.

Seung: 18:24

yeah, I think it's not only symbo, it's just, I've just never forgot and generationally, that it meant everything to my parents, and it really did create the opportunity of freedom for myself, for my family, and for my kids and for generations to follow. Yeah.

Aleyx: 18:43

It's beautiful. So what did it, teach you? Obviously this is, you know, leadership podcast and you've got your, book Leadernomics. So what did being in the military teach you about leadership?

Seung: 18:54

Oh man. you know, it's funny, they, the Air Force Academy itself, it's called a leadership institute, right? It's called a leadership laboratory, and it's, not like semi leadership classes, it's 24 7 immersion. So you're either learning leadership, practicing leadership, studying leadership, researching historical leadership. You're kind of like just immersed in leadership all day long. And so that has its pros and cons.'cause on, in the one hand you're surrounded by it. And so you're going to, by osmosis, I think, grow in your leadership understanding and skills and, strategy and vision. But at the same time, because you're so immersed in it, it's easy to become a bit complacent in taking in all that is being offered. And I think for me, because I was so new to that culture, I didn't necessarily embrace the military style of leadership from day one. And in fact, Aleyx, it, was something that I kind of felt at odds with in some ways because it was just very patriotic, which I had some patriotism, but I didn't have like the kind of like generational patriotism that some of the classmates had who had like grandparents and great-grandparents who fought in World War. I fought in World War II and fought in Vietnam and like wasn't me. And I think part of my senses just thought, okay, what is this? Is this. that there is to leadership. And so a part of me was looking for a little bit more internal vector how to make decisions in life and how to make decisions for myself and for others in leadership. And surprisingly enough, it didn't come by way of the military in terms of all of the military indoctrination. It came by way of this class called economics. And so I think that's where there was this significant, resonance with me and this discipline called economics because economics from day one was unfolding principles were probing into my thoughts and my conscience, and my heart, my motivations, incentives, challenging my priorities in decision making. Then from there it was giving me kind of an objective path on how to move forward. And I thought, whoa, this, isn't just a discipline, this is kind of like a leader slash mentor for decision making. And that's how it was introduced to my heart, that's how I kind of related to economics from day one. And so, yes, so the Air Force, the military, the Air Force Academy, they taught me a ton about leadership, character, all of those things that we would consider a part of the leadership umbrella. But this discipline called economics was fundamental in how I approached personal decisions, life decisions, and leadership decisions, not only in the ways of how it would affect me, but how it would affect all the relationships surrounding me in leader. It came through economics, so that's why, that's why it's been such an important subject for me.

Aleyx: 22:31

So could you take us to that moment, where that first idea came to you? Were you in an economics class? Like where were you when this idea came to?

Seung: 22:41

I was actually, it was in my first Economics 101 class, and I was so thankful because I had a bit, I had a little, a little bit of a, kind of a crazy professor. Crazy. Not in the sense of like crazy, but crazy as like he was, very free in how he was teaching class. He came in and he challenged all of us, Hey, what's the purpose of economics? And we were all new to economics. And so we didn't really have a good answer. And while he was asking us, he was doing this really funny dance, he was like kind of doing all these contortions and moving around and moving his body. And we just thought, this guy is pretty crazy, but entertaining. And then he goes up to the grease board and he starts doing that same dance, but he does it with a grease marker. And he starts drawing all of this stuff from end to end, just curve after curve. then he yells at us again and he is like, what's the purpose of economics? And we're like, we don't know. And, he says, okay, well I know that calculus was a prerequisite. So what is the purpose of first derivative calculus? Well, we're a STEM university, and so all of us have an answer. So we all raise our hand and we say, well, the purpose of first derivative calculus is to find. A point on a curve, right? you can get the slope. he goes, exactly. He goes, just like first derivative calculus. We're going to use a lot of calculus in economics because the purpose of economics is to take a chaotic, confusing, complex, crazy life, find a point so that we can move straightforward in life. And the way he broke that moment down, I was actually in that season of life, I was going through a little bit of a crisis because I wasn't sure if the military was for me. And so I'm in this class wrestling with all of the variables, the pros and cons of should I stay in the military? Should I leave the military? Who's going to mentor me? When I look to my left and I look to my right, everybody is marching to the same military beat. So I needed some type of mentor outside of the military. And then when he said, this is about finding a point, distilling it down, assessing that part of your life so that you can move forward with a straightforward decision. I thought maybe this is the mentor I'm looking for. And sure enough, Aleyx, as class by class unfolded that semester and principle by principle, it was like looking into a mirror that was searching my heart, revealing to me my priorities and values and my preferences, and then guiding me toward an objective decision. And would you believe it led me? To leave the military. I left for a full year. Yeah. Because I just needed to see how green grass was on the other side. And to me that was a valuable enough reason that I left behind the military and I went to go see just how green grass is on the other side. And it was during that year of soul searching once again, could econ have an answer for me at the end of that year of whether or not I might want to go back. enough, by the end of that year, that's when my dad's story my story, and I finally found that North Star. I found that purpose, value, and the reason to be there that meant far more. And the sacrifice and the cost of being there. And so once again, it was like this cost benefit analysis of economics. this time in that chaos and that confusion, it drew me back into the military. And so yeah. So strangely enough, it was in the midst of crisis, two big life decisions. Should I stay or should I go? And then a year later, should I back or should I stay? And econ had a way of probing my heart and guiding me in that direction.

Aleyx: 26:54

So how does that work on a, if you simplify that, you know, when you've got those major decisions and using econ guide you in what way can you break it down for us?

Seung: 27:06

Yeah. in the book itself, there's usually when I am in the process of doing a deep dive with organisations. Or even with individuals or teams, depending on how far and wide and deep they want to go, there will be anywhere between 20 to 25 principles, core economic principles that I'll focus on, and we'll just kind of deep dive into all of them. But for the book's sake, I've focused on 10 core principles that I think give a really good framework for how econ can be a, what I call the greatest decision mentor of all time, right? So it gives you this framework, across any and every decision life decision, whether you're a leader, whether you're a parent, whether you're a CEO, it'll give you a framework for that decision to make. And the essence of economics really is this notion that take a look at least the nature of economics, the, definition. From an academic standpoint is it's the study of individual choices,

Aleyx: 28:18

So how does that work on a, if you simplify that, you know, when you've got those major decisions and using econ guide you in what way can you break it down for us?

Seung: 28:30

Yeah. in the book itself, there's usually when I am in the process of doing a deep dive with organisations. Or even with individuals or teams, depending on how far and wide and deep they want to go, there will be anywhere between 20 to 25 principles, core economic principles that I'll focus on, and we'll just kind of deep dive into all of them. But for the book's sake, I've focused on 10 core principles that I think give a really good framework for how econ can be a, what I call the greatest decision mentor of all time, right? So it gives you this framework, across any and every decision life decision, whether you're a leader, whether you're a parent, whether you're a CEO, it'll give you a framework for that decision to make. And the essence of economics really is this notion that take a look at least the nature of economics, the, definition. From an academic standpoint is it's the study of individual choices, but it's never in isolation. There is no economy that ever functions in isolation. It's always functioning in the context of relationship. it's the study of your individual choices in the context of relationship. so if you think about that, right, that's leadership. That's not only in terms of markets where you have supply and demand, consumers and producers, employers and employees. That's also in the relationship of leaders and followers. How does my individual decision have an impact in the context of relationship. That's a market. That's a market. so when we make our decisions, right, not just a matter of what is the best decision for me, it's what is the best decision for me in the context of relationship. And that changes things. and what it begin then gets into is it doesn't just get into an assessment of and cents market value, because the minute you see things in the context of relationship, human relationship, it's always about more than just dollars and cents because all of us carry an intrinsic inherent value more than a price tag. when you make those decisions, you have to recognise that they're going to have some level of intrinsic inherent effect on somebody else.

Aleyx: 31:20

Right. So it really helps you to break down a major decision and look at, almost look at the ripple effect of what that decision will be on others in your environment. So it really helps you make that decision from all different angles.

Seung: 31:34

Absolutely. And you know, like it's, it sounds almost elementary to the point of silly when you talk about leadership and you know, the age old phrase comes up, oh yeah. Leadership is about taking care of your people, right? Or, leadership, obviously you have to have some level of eq, listening, understanding, compassion, love, care, that's all involved in taking care of your people. And it just sounds like, well, of course, until look around and people will say that all day long, but when push comes to shove. What you end up seeing oftentimes is people retreating back to a market assessment of people and value valuing people strictly, almost from a commodity perspective, that your value to me is only as great as your salary, right? So if your salary is, let's say$30,000, well that's your market value to me. How sad is that, right? And oh, if your salary is, oh, you're a CEO, you're making 5 million a year, oh, your value is this. And so it's so obvious that all of a sudden you see people treating people leading, people talking to people in different ways simply because position, their salary, and their market value. And what they've done, and they don't even realise it because it happens so often, is they have begun to commodify that relationship. They have begun to see that relationship, not for the inherent priceless value that it carries, but for the transactional commodification value that it holds according to the market's analysis. Right? And so yeah, so when you do talk about leadership and you talk about the inherent value of people as simple and as basic and as elementary as it sounds in practice, I am finding that it is still a massive paradigm shift on a daily basis to practice it wholeheartedly and sincerely. It is a paradigm shift.

Aleyx: 34:00

So you're taking this, so you're, training companies and things with this concept. What's, what's the kind of aha moment you see people have when you're kinda going through this work with them?

Seung: 34:11

So I think the first biggest aha moment is, and we start individual. We start personal because, and this is part of where it gets to be a bit naked from the top, right? So if, if leaders really want to implement, this notion of priceless leadership and priceless mentorship across their organisation, they want to bring in the framework of economics, moving them from market value to inherent priceless value and how they build their culture. they relate to people in their organisational market structure, if they really want to do that. It always starts from the top. It always starts with the leader, and it always begs the question, to what extent you willing to bury your ego? Right? To what extent are you willing to be naked, to see, to be transparent, to recognise your blind spots, your flaws, acknowledge it, maybe even apologise for it, and then have this willingness and this accountability to stick to say, will bury. Those systems, I will bury some of those false standards. I will bury my decisions that have been stuck nowhere. I am willing to take feedback as the leader bury the things that need to get buried for the sake of the organisation and everyone else, right? So if I run into, an organisation or if I run into a person that says Seung, we really would love to see how you can incorporate economics and leader Leadernomics into our organisation. Half the times we won't get past day one because day one is my personal conversation with the leaders of that organisation and I will say to them, so I love that. Thank you for coming and thank you for this opportunity. The first couple hours I just need to talk to you and your leadership team. Because it's going to begin with to what extent are you willing to be transformed yourself? To what extent are you as a leadership team willing to hold each other accountable to, to make known those areas that may potentially be debilitating and obstacles and areas where you're stuck. How can you guys make that transparent? And then how can you guys hold each other accountable to not go back to that, to, to bury those areas both personally and professionally? Right? And if we can't make a commitment to that. Then we probably, we really don't have a chance at implementing this system into your organisation because it's going to be perceived as hypocritical and it's going to be perceived as insincere. So it really begins with you, to what extent will you expose those areas that you may potentially have as flaws and roadblocks? And then let's start there.

Aleyx: 37:28

And I imagine that make many leaders quite uncomfortable.

Seung: 37:31

it's, it is, and you know, and I try not to make it uncomfortable, but I think I don't want to, of all, I don't want to waste their time and I also don't want to waste mine. Right. Because, the fact of the matter is, that any organisational transformation, it demands leadership transformation. It has to,

Aleyx: 37:55

Absolutely.

Seung: 37:55

and I think most leaders understand that. are they committed to it? They may think they are, but I really want to wrestle with them on that from the get go to see their commitment level, because if they truly are committed to that and they don't really know sometimes until they, we kind of walk that path a little bit. But if they are committed to that, they are ready and willing to see transformative results in their culture and in their organisation. And if they're not, if they're just kinda like one foot in, one foot out, it's going to be quite challenging. It's going to be difficult.

Aleyx: 38:36

Yeah. So you have to do that. You have to lay it all out right at the start to get the results that, that you want to get. And it, this leads me on to my next question, was, that you describe your style as intentional, inspirational, relational, and confrontational. And that last one really stood out when I read that from your form. Can you, and I think that relates to what you're, saying there. Can you tell us a little bit more about how you lean into that confrontation?

Seung: 39:04

Yeah. So if I could, it's funny, Aleyx, I am like pseudo part of many different communities, right? And all of these communities,'cause I'm, a bit outspoken and so they know what I do. They know what I'm about. They know about, you know, how I talk to people about leadership and economics how, and it's funny to me, Aleyx, that even in the circle of what I would consider friends and close community when it comes to some of this stuff, they don't want to get too close because they know that if they invite me to talk about it more deeply. That it's going to be confrontational. And I'm not saying confrontational from the standpoint of like judgmental, but confrontational from the standpoint of open kimono being naked, right? And let's face it, it's uncomfortable. Most people don't want to go there. that if it actually means laying bare some areas of weakness or blind spots, that's a tough journey. And so most people will retreat back to the comfort and safety. And so, kind of going back to your question about confrontation. First of all, I do recognise in many of these little spheres that I'm in, they know what I do. They love hearing about what I do, but they never say, Hey son, can you come talk to us about that? Or Would you mind sitting down with our team? Like they won't go there. And I've often sat back and thought they know what I do. I know they're having problems. I know they're having some issues, but they won't because they don't. At the end of the day, they don't want to transform. They don't want to change, and they don't want to go through some of the abrasion that's going to be required to get there. And then the ones that do, like to say that it's kind of a loving confrontation. And the reason why I say it's a loving confrontation is because loving someone truly is truthful. It's not beating around the bush, it's not giving them false impression of who they are. It's trying to be as compassionate, but also as truthful and as honest as you can possibly be. And so when we do a deep dive and when we do an assessment and we ask questions to try to figure out where those blind spots and those weaknesses are, it feels confrontational, right? Because it's kind of peeling back the layers, but it's. Truthful, and to me, that's the most loving type of consultation, the most loving type of therapy, the most loving type of mentorship, guidance, the most loving type of feedback that you can give. The delivery matters, but the truth also matters. Right? So it's kind of a, the combination of both is that you want to make sure you're bringing confrontational truth, but delivering it in such a manner that it's still, it's, compassionate and that it's, and they know that it's coming from a place of care, not from a place of judgment.

Aleyx: 42:14

Yes. Yeah, it's absolutely how you say it. And you know, people often need to hear, what was that saying? People need to hear not what they, I'm getting my words mixed up now. oh, I've completely lost what I was going to say. All right, Paul. Edit.

Seung: 42:34

It's right, you're right. It's kind of like what they want to hear and what they need to hear.

Aleyx: 42:42

That's it. There's two different things.

Seung: 42:44

they're, two very different things and people, leaders included. I mean, is it easy to confront people? it's not my preference. Trust me, my preference is, I'd rather not talk to them about that. Right. I'm not, I remember when I was a young leader, Aleyx, in the Air Force, and I, used to be, I was like this 21-year-old, brand new leader. And the vast majority of the organisation that I was leading, they were They were technically proficient, they were wiser, they were older. Some of them, I was single. They were parents. I mean, they had a lot of life experience, right? And there I was, because of my position, because of my title, and because of my rank, I'm bringing them in to give them feedback and to be constructive. I did not enjoy that was not right because who am I as this new young buck to look at this person who I know is technically more proficient, probably far more experienced than I am, but I'm supposed to give them some level of constructive feedback on a regular basis. And so I used to hate those. I used to be like, oh Lord, I don't want to do this. This is so uncomfortable. And you know what I actually did? I started doing, I, actually started bringing in some of my more seasoned people and I would say, Hey, listen you guys, before I give you one ounce of constructive feedback. Can I please hear two or three bits of constructive feedback from me? would you guys please be willing to share with me an area or two that I could definitely use some work?'cause I truly value your expertise and your opinion, right? And that really helped make it easier, not only for me to give them some feedback, but then also for them to receive it. because I was willing to take it from them. And so, I quickly, in my, leadership life, I quickly learned to first allow them to give me some feedback because I so respected their years of experience and their wisdom, even though I may have had a higher platform in terms of rank or authority. yeah. Rank or authority really, it's, leadership on paper, but it's really not leadership per se.

Aleyx: 45:03

Yeah, I love that. And it shows your humility and it probably enables them to receive more when you've kind of asked for that feedback too, and opens up that conversation. I'm intrigued. sorry.'cause when I spoke to your, friend Amy, she said that you were, and this really surprised me, she said that you were a, self-professed introvert. And I thought, okay, well I dunno song that well, but he doesn't seem like an introvert. But then she also said that your friends aren't convinced. And she says that they think that you're an extrovert with a gift of connect and others. So how, does that make you feel and where does this, I'd love to hear a bit more of why you're a self-professed introvert.'cause it doesn't seem to me like you are.

Seung: 45:55

Well, can I ask you a quick question, Aleyx?

Aleyx: 45:57

Of course

Seung: 45:59

where, would you say you are on that spectrum?

Aleyx: 46:03

I, I'd say I'm a bit of both. I would say I lean more to extrovert, and the reason being, I need to be around other people to get my energy. So if I, so I work from home two days a week and I work in the city, and if I work in my study on my own for too long, I'm depleted of energy. I have no energy. And then so I need to go out to an event and connect with other people and I'm like, I'm energised. Before we got on this podcast, I was, my energy was a bit low and I already know this will give me more energy just by having this conversation connect with someone. So I think I do lean more to e extrovert than introvert, but I have my introvert tendencies as well.

Seung: 46:47

and you say that you have kind of been, ebb and flow that way throughout your life, or has it evolved over the years?

Aleyx: 46:57

It is definitely evolved. So when I was a young kid, I spent a lot of time alone. I played alone and I did a lot on, my own. So I think that's maybe why as an adult I want to be around people and it fills me up. But don't get me wrong, I need my alone time. I've got a 4-year-old and a 2-year-old, so anytime like they're in bed and my husband's out, I'm like, oh, wow, this is such a gift. I can sit on my own for a few hours.

Seung: 47:25

It's, call myself a self-professed introvert. because, so in my youth I was very extroverted, very, like, I just loved being around people. Always wanted to be around my friends. n not didn't have to be the life of the party, but I wanted to be in the party. I wanted to be at the party. I just, I think that was my, how I was for a long time. And then something happened, I think somewhere, I think in my. Twenties. oh. So I, part of it was in my, so I was part of it. The extroversion was because I was always around people. I was always on teams. I did sports and so I was always on teams. And then when I was in college and university, I was always around friends. And then finally I had the season of life for about seven years in my twenties I got my own place and I was living alone and I wasn't dating. And I just had all of this kind of like alone time. And I started reading a lot more. I started just going on like road trips alone, and what I thought was going to be a terribly lonely time. I ended up being an incredibly fulfilling time, so I was very extroverted, but I didn't realise, just, I think, how much I was kind of inclined introversion because I just never that season of life. And so then when I had it, I really cherished it. And then when I got married, and my wife, I call her the shyest, craziest extrovert, so she's super extroverted, but she's super shy, so she will, she totally doesn't want to meet strangers, but she always wants to be around friends. And and so she has this huge extroverted nature about her. And so it made me all the more comfortable. To be my introverted self because I could be introverted and simply by being around her, I'm going to get plenty of social contact with people. Right. yeah. So it's funny is that, and so that, so from that season of kind of living my own life, then to getting married to an extrovert and then having kids, I think I just kind of found all of the communal, extroverted needs met without having to make much of an effort to be in, social communities with the other people. And so when I do that, I get drained. I'm like, oh man, just had, like, my wife has just talked my ears off. My kids have talked my ears off. Like we just had a couple of dinners in a row with my wife's friends and now my friends and all of our friends. when I get an opportunity to get some time, like. People were like, Hey, Seung, let's go do this, or ung, let's go do that. And I'm just like, I'm, And yeah, so I'm, very social. I can be very social and I've got no problems with that. but inside there's a part of me that's just craving. Like, I just, can I just go read a book for a while and can I just kind of be alone for a while? And I don't, and I don't get drained by that. I, so, I kind of have a little bit of both. I think I can feed off of both, like tonight too, by the way. I've had, I spent most of today a bit in writing and an isolation. And so I was so looking forward to this. So I was like, I can't wait to hang out with Aleyx. because so that, so I have both, right. But I would say I'm more self-professed. I think I'm more self-professed introvert. And it's evolved in that way.

Aleyx: 51:23

Yeah. And it's interesting, isn't it, because I think we've got these, these visions of extrovert and introvert, but I think many of us can be both and we can ebb and flow, between the two. for sure. Yeah. Yeah. on on your family, you mentioned that your kids have left home now. Is that correct?

Seung: 51:46

are, we're empty nesters. I've got two that are now in the professional working world. and I've got one, son, my youngest, who's a junior at college, and so he's away at school. So yeah, so it's just my wife and I and our, little puppy, Lulu.

Aleyx: 52:02

What's that transition being like? You know, as somebody who's right at the start of a parenting journey, I am like, oh, that sounds lovely,

Seung: 52:10

Wait, so how old are your kids?

Aleyx: 52:13

four and two.

Seung: 52:14

Oh my, yeah. Oh yeah. So you're in the thick of it. so honestly. It's great. You know, I don't think parenting ever ends, but there is definitely seasons of life where you feel like, oh, you feel like I'll, look at my wife and I'll be like, honey, job well done. You know, kind of gotten to that place where I think our kids give us more advice than we give them. Yeah. He, yeah, it's great. Like, they're the ones calling saying, dad, are you exercising dad? What are you eating these days? know, what are you a mom up to? Are you guys being good to each other? Like, it's so funny. it's like, and quite honestly, Aleyx, you know, one of the greatest joys of parenting, that, I hope, and I always hope that every parent experiences, and I think a lot of it is fostered and cultivated through their youth, but it's finding that season of life where all of a sudden you look at them and they're always your child, but you look at them and you see like this adult, young adult friend. They've all of a sudden become like this young adult friend that you share with you, converse with, you, laugh with, and you're just like, you're like daughter, son. you're like a buddy. you're like a good friend. And it's priceless. It's just so, rich. And so that's my greatest desire and my hope for every parent that they can through the tough seasons of life without having burned too many bridges and have that place, that season where they're able to look at their child and their child can look at their mom and dad just be like, you're, such a good friend. You're such a good

Aleyx: 53:55

Oh, that's so sweet. That's so sweet.

Seung: 53:59

yeah.

Aleyx: 53:59

Well, we're coming the end song.

Seung: 54:03

Because I've gotta ask you something.

Aleyx: 54:05

Okay. Okay.

Seung: 54:08

so, I get,'cause I've been wanting to ask you this forever and I do want it to get on air because I just feel like it's such an important thing. So I am so excited when you told me about your journey to just put yourself out there on standup comedy.'cause you know why, because, so you're a speaker. I'm a speaker. I've been speaking for a long time and I have no problem speaking in public. I just love it. I embrace it. I just enjoy it so much. You know, the one area that I can't imagine doing that's standup comedy, I cannot, because there's something about I just, so when you told me about it, I remember sitting here thinking, man, she's going to do the one thing in public speaking that I just don't want to do. So I've gotta, so I've gotta ask you why, did you do it? And what, what are maybe like one or two huge takeaways? Are you still in the experience or are you done with the experience?

Aleyx: 55:08

So I'm done. Well, I'm done, with the course. So a, few things. So the reason I did it was, because when I go and I, often go to events and watch other speakers'cause I like to learn from other people. I'm like, oh, they did it that way. And, you know, it's, it's great to learn from others. And the speakers are always memorable to me. Anyone anyway, are the ones that make me laugh. and I've noticed as well, if I open up with a funny story and the audience laugh, I watch them and they just, you can see them just relax. They're like, okay. It's like they become comfortable with you, you disarm them. And a few friends that have watched me have said, you're, you're quite funny. My husband does not agree. But, so I thought, okay, well I want to be a bit more intentional about it. Plus I do love to challenge myself. I've taken so much from it because in standup comedy, every word counts.

Seung: 56:09

gosh.

Aleyx: 56:10

so you really learned to just, you had to just cut so much. So they were like, Nope, too much. Too much, Get to the point. Get to the point. I'm like, whoa. And also timing's everything. So one thing I did notice on, so it was four nights of learning, and the fifth night you, performed a live audience. And I was, well, I was in the second half, so I was out there watching everyone

Seung: 56:34

Was the

Aleyx: 56:34

and I said.

Seung: 56:35

the room packed?

Aleyx: 56:37

There was about, it wasn't too bad, it was like 40 people. it wasn't too bad. And I, when we were in, we were like behind the screen, they called it the, what did they call it? The dressing room. It was just a screen. and we were on the screen and I said to the guys, I was like, do you notice when they're on stage? The longer they pause, the more laughs that you get. And I noticed a lot of it wasn't intentional. A lot of it was they forgot their, what, the joke. But the ones that just kind of just stood there, the pe the audience started laughing and it was almost like they were just catching up. And I've always. Known the, power of the pause. But I learned even more there. And so I tried it out myself and I really just let it ha and it's uncomfortable, but the more you like, just let it hang, the more the people just start laughing and laughter's infectious. Right? So then, I learned so much and there's a few of us that are going to do open mic nights and things. It was really terrifying. I came off because a lot of people before they went on stage, they were having a few drinks and I don't drink. And I was like, oh, I'm getting nervous. And they're like, I just have a few drinks. So I was like, no, I, don't drink. I'll just feel the fool effects. And when I came off I was,'cause I love getting on stage, but when I came off, I was shaking, my eyes went funny and I was like. But it was it was really scary, but it was, so exhilarating. I've bungee jumped, I've skydived, and nothing came close to that feeling, that rush. So I think my challenge to you song is to give it a go.

Seung: 58:20

Seriously. So I mean, that is so, awesome. did you feel like you had to be,'cause you're, a pretty free flowing speaker. I, you know, I don't like, I don't get the sense that you're like one of those people with notes and like, like you have maybe an outline, but you don't have like, and you have certain points, but you're not stuck to any. Did you feel like you had to be really scripted in your.

Aleyx: 58:45

Yes and no in terms of, oh, so you'd plan out the joke. So you would know the joke, but it was just a case of saying it over and over again until it was just in your head. Right? Because they always say don't memorise it, know it. and so when I was on stage, I actually forgot two jokes and I didn't even realise that I'd forgotten the jokes'cause I was just kind of in the flow. It wasn't until I went and sat back in the audience, I was like, I'd forgot my favorite joke. And I hadn't even realised,'cause I was just, but yeah, you, have to be really careful.'cause if you, if you waffle, I think. Very, like professional comedians can do a big, long narrative, but when you're just learning, it's just like joke, because you haven't learned the craft enough to, you know, go into a big narrative, like some of the comedians do.

Seung: 59:39

It's such a craft. Right?

Aleyx: 59:41

Yeah. And, but I learned so much that I would definitely, I definitely keep doing it'cause I think it, it does improve your speaking for sure.

Seung: 59:49

then, was there ever a moment for you or someone else that you saw out on stage and the joke just didn't land?

Aleyx: 59:56

Yeah. Yeah. There wa yeah, there was. Yeah.

Seung: 59:58

Oh.

Aleyx: 59:59

but it was, but everyone wonder did, everyone did well. Everyone was just like. Keep going, but one, one of the, so one of the coaches is a comedian, and he said, because when we were practicing, if they told a joke and then we didn't laugh, they were like, oh, come on guys. That was funny. And he was like, no, don't do this. Don't let the audience know that you've shaken them. You don't let them, don't let your confidence go down. just look at them and just, you dare them to laugh. You just like,

Seung: 1:00:32

gosh.

Aleyx: 1:00:33

laugh.

Seung: 1:00:38

Oh, I love that. I love that. I'm so, thankful you did that. I, you know, I am going to try to find myself something like that and, throw myself at that.'cause I, just think that is such a different aspect of public speaking.

Aleyx: 1:00:51

Yes it is. Yes. I'd love you to try it.

Seung: 1:00:54

Oh my gosh.

Aleyx: 1:00:56

Alright, so we're going to go into the, our, the quick fire round before we close up.

Seung: 1:01:00

okay.

Aleyx: 1:01:00

Okay. I'm just going to ask you a few quick questions, then you give me the, first thing that comes to mind. So what's your personal mantra right now?

Seung: 1:01:10

Oh, priceless. People deserve priceless leadership.

Aleyx: 1:01:14

Love that. hit workout or hot coffee. Which one wins in your morning?

Seung: 1:01:20

Hot workout or hot coffee.

Aleyx: 1:01:22

Yeah. One book or thinker that shaped your life.

Seung: 1:01:30

Big earth shaker. That shaped my life. Whoa. Marriage.

Aleyx: 1:01:37

Oh,

Seung: 1:01:38

Yeah,

Aleyx: 1:01:39

that.

Seung: 1:01:39

for

Aleyx: 1:01:40

love that. one moment recently that, made you feel joy.

Seung: 1:01:46

Holding my book when it was done and hearing my 88-year-old father say how proud he was.

Aleyx: 1:01:56

Oh, I love that. I love that.

Seung: 1:01:58

that

Aleyx: 1:01:59

I can imagine that must feel amazing.

Seung: 1:02:01

That felt Yeah,

Aleyx: 1:02:04

Amazing. Well, that's the end of the, quick, fire round. And just the last question is just a gift to all the listeners. I'll I pass it on, if you will. So if you could pass on just one belief or insight about leadership to the next generation, what would it be?

Seung: 1:02:20

leadership done right is incredibly hard, but it's the most rewarding calling could ever imagine. don't hide from it. Run toward leadership,

Aleyx: 1:02:38

I.

Seung: 1:02:38

run toward it with the right the right training, and the right heart. It is the most rewarding thing that can ever come into your life. And because of that, it's also the hardest. so yeah, I am a big fan of leadership. Run after it, run toward it, hear the calling. We're all called to it to some degree, and we should race to it.

Aleyx: 1:03:05

Oh, thank you so much. Seung. So if people want to, find more about you, where, can they go? where can we buy your book?

Seung: 1:03:13

Yeah, so I'm out there on LinkedIn for sure. You can find me on LinkedIn. and then you can also find my book on amazon.com. I'm also out there on Barnes and Noble and bookshop.org. then I also have my website, Leadernomics.org, leader genomics.org. And then I'm just one of those very approachable guys, so if you connect with me, DM me, even send me an email Leadernomics@gmail.com. I'm just very approachable, so connect with me and I will respond back to you. It won't be bot, it won't be an ai. It'll be me. And, and I just love relationships. Yeah, I want to talk longer.

Aleyx: 1:03:52

No, I'm sorry. Thank you so much for Coming on. It's been amazing.

Seung: 1:03:59

you Aleyx so much. And thank you for just, yeah, just thanks for having me on my show, on your show. And I, love, I just love this show. I think it's so great.

Aleyx: 1:04:08

Thank you.