Naked at the Top

The Childlike Curiosity Behind Big Success | Alan Gill

• Paul Banks • Season 1 • Episode 14

Share episode

Alan Gill brings a rare mix of sharp business instinct and playful curiosity to this conversation. As co-founder of Choice Energy, one of the fastest-growing energy businesses in AsiaPac, he has lived through the chaos, pressure and exhilaration of scaling at speed. Yet beneath the targets and milestones sits a leader who still draws sharks in meetings, turns corporate stresses into comedy, and uses creativity as a tool for clarity, connection and calm. This episode reveals the human side of ambition, from startup survival to finding joy in the everyday.

Aleyx and Alan explore the early days of building a business with no safety net, raising a young family at the same time, and carrying the weight of responsibility when people are relying on you for their livelihood. They dive into leadership identity, humour as a resilience strategy, navigating growth, and why the best insights often come from childlike curiosity rather than boardroom bravado.

Through stories about sharks, toilet echo disasters, corporate lessons, cultural contrasts and the people who keep him grounded, Alan gives a refreshingly honest view of what leadership feels like behind the scenes. Not polished. Not filtered. Simply human. This is an episode for anyone building something meaningful while trying to stay connected to who they really are.

Alan’s reflections land with warmth, wisdom and a healthy dose of mischief. If you’re growing a business, leading people or simply trying to make sense of ambition while still living a life that feels like yours, this conversation will stay with you.

📲 Connect with Naked at the Top:


🎥 YouTube – https://youtube.com/@NakedAtTheTop?sub_confirmation=1

💼 LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/company/naked-at-the-top

📸 Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/nakedatthetoppodcast

🎧 Spotify – https://open.spotify.com/show/7oepK8jODbGvwsCzPbMBeY

🍎 Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/naked-at-the-top/id1741310522

🌐 Website – https://www.nakedatthetop.com

Aleyx:

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Naked At the Top. Today's guest is the co-founder of Choice Energy, one of the fastest growing energy businesses in AsiaPac. But what I love is that amidst all that scale and success, he still draws sharks and meetings and starts trivia games from his desk. He's sharp, he's hilarious. And by the end of this, you'll probably want to frame a shark drawing, too. Alan, welcome to Naked At the Top.

Alan:

Thanks Aleyx. Good to be here. think that's a very polite way of saying Alan is good at business, but an absolute child. Yeah.

Aleyx:

But that's, that's the best part, right? You know, the, all the guests I've had on here, or I would say most of them, talk about how important it is to have fun and everything that you do. And from speaking to people before this interview that knows you, you definitely seem to fit that with that type.

Alan:

we had a, presenter, trainer, came in last week, last Wednesday. Trish, who, it was more just an awareness, thing about neurodiversity, which, something I'm, definitely across. And, we had to do a self-portrait and, at the beginning and the whole idea of it was, to get. people's reactions. So some people knew exactly what to do and some people didn't know what to do and they had further questions and it was just, an example to show how our minds work. And, I, started, it's interesting you say I draw sharks. So I've already started one on this meeting. we're talking before. This is my self portrait. I'm still working on. So I'm obviously coloring it in. she only gave us like, two minutes something, but I'm still doodling as I'm on calls. And this stands for, kind, have fun and, never give up. so yeah, the fun, things first for me. That's, the thing. So yeah, I, I definitely subscribe to that. You try and have,'cause there is fun everywhere, even in tragedy, especially in tragedy actually. There's, My wife's, friend, passed away, sadly last year. And, she was, they're sort of best friends, three of them. And the, third person, the wrong hearse, to, and so she was going down the, freeway, down the one national, wherever it was. And she was thinking, hang on a minute, her grades can't be this far away. And whilst, you know, everyone was sort of chucking roses, on the coffin stuff, the two ladies were giggling and so yeah, there, there is fun. Even in tragedy, I think

Aleyx:

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's why, you know, I love standup comedy and a lot of that is, you know, finding, the humour in some of those dark moments and things, and people tend to love it apart from a few that might. It.

Alan:

Yeah. Yeah.

Aleyx:

Now I've been told that one of your biggest bug bears is, people mispronouncing things, so I just wanted to check. You do realise that you're being interviewed by a Scot, right?

Alan:

Well, actually I'm, a wannabe Scot, so I think your accent, I would love to have your accent. so I think in the and age where people can identify as who they want to be, I'm allowed to identify as Scottish, and my blood is half Scottish, quarter Irish and quarter English. So whilst I'm very obviously English, my heart's always been Scottish, and I'm very envious of your pronunciation.

Aleyx:

well, you're actually just as Scottish as I am.'cause I'm half and half, half English of Scottish, so there we go.

Alan:

There we go. you're More English than me, by. blood

Aleyx:

Yeah. so could you tell us a little bit about, choice energy and what you do there, Alan?

Alan:

Yeah, absolutely. we started in October, 2013 and, we help other businesses to, Use less energy from the grid and pay less for the energy that they do use. we do that in a load of different, sort of, very, geeky ways. in the same way, Aleyx, like my accountant, I, I very good at his job, but he gets really very excited about, there's another tax break that we can get here, or, and I'm like. Adam, I really like you and I'm glad that you're a geek, but I don't care. And that's pretty much what, most of our, what now, over 13,000 business customers that we have. most of'em just go, okay, geeks, thanks. I'm glad you're excited about electricity. I'm not just make the bill smaller reduce my effects. that's what we do. and you sort of alluded to at the start, we've gone through, some very rapid growth, up until sort of 2020 and then, COVID hit and we had to, I think we grew, we did grow, but we were growing at a thousand percent, the three years prior to that. and was like, Usain Bolt going for a walk. That's what it felt like. and which is not in our nature. and please say that we're, very much back to that very accelerated growth, level now. So around about, 65, 70 people. about 70% of them are salespeople. So we are a sales organiser, sales service organisation. and, we've, we're very, lucky in that'cause all industries use electricity. We get exposure to, the egg industry, the, the restaurant industry. you know, the. farming or agriculture, and you get to know different, you get to know different industries and they've all got their, sort of style and quirks and, that's actually one of the most fascinating, bits. It's, it makes you feel good that you're helping another business. and I know the business owner of all the, kind of curve balls that you get and the bad luck that you don't deserve. And then the, good luck that you get, that you don't deserve it either. but it, does feel good helping, businesses with something that they're already doing, but then also getting to know their industry, is, it's good fun. It's very good fun.

Aleyx:

Yeah.

Alan:

Yeah.

Aleyx:

Yeah. Is there a particular industry that you, align to most? have you got a favorite?

Alan:

I dunno, yeah, maybe. I think the automotive guys are, pretty good, because. very, they like the Australian expression, straight shooters. they don't, mince their words. they've typically got a good sense of humour. I suppose they're in the business of helping people already with what they do'cause we all drive cars or have cars or, vehicles or whatever. So I suppose there's, I hadn't really thought about that before. but yeah, they're normally good fun. and then, you know, I think probably, the bakers, are good as well, because you have to be a certain type of person to get up at four in the morning, and start, baking bread. You, I'm not saying they're mad, but they're definitely quirky and, yeah, probably enjoy interfacing with those two the most, I'd say,

Aleyx:

Yeah. Nice. And how did Choice Energy start? How did you get into it?

Alan:

I knew nothing about energy beforehand.

Aleyx:

Yeah.

Alan:

I've, I had a couple of sort of, no, I wouldn't call'em full starts, but I wanted to do something in the uk. one, one with a friend of mine, one with my brother. And, we never really got round to doing it. and again, those two things were in, real estate and, headhunting, which I've got no experience. I just wanted to start a business. My, my background was in, software, and, software sales and leadership. And, my business partner, Chris, said. I kind of, I sent him a text saying, Hey, we should start a business. and he said, I've got a plan. And, of course he does. so he goes, I'll, come around to your house. And he was in my kitchen at about six o'clock that evening, maybe five 30. And, he, presented this plan, which he'd actually sent to Richard Branson, who. Who had, not replied to it at all. And, Chris knew a little bit about energy through solar. So he was the CEO of a solar company. and he had this plan and all it was gonna take was,$10,000 each, which was not ev e evidentially. True. but that was the wish. and, said, so what do you think? And my wife, think she was probably more, adventurous about it than I was. She just said, you think you can do this? And I said, yeah, you know, all I've gotta do is, you know, we will build a sales organisation. I know about this. so it doesn't, I didn't need to be an energy geek. And, so yeah, she backed me. and I started it with Chris and, yeah, away we went.

Aleyx:

Yeah. Wow. And so were you surprised that she backed you or was that quite, you know, usual for her?

Alan:

yeah, I reckon probably 98% of things she would say, no, it's gotta be done my way. I'm serious. even buttering toast or making tea, which I still refuse. She puts the sugar in, like this, it's ment. She leaves the tea bag in and then puts the sugar in and then takes the tea bag out and then puts the, that's, I got taught to make a cup of tea by a chef, and I disagree with her on that one, but, which is why I make all her cups of tea. But, no. She likes to, have control over almost everything, but certain things she recognises that, I've got more flare for, or more talent ones. She lets me, one of them is business in finance and stuff. So she goes, cool. you know, she's a farmer's daughter who's a engineering geologist and, can, bore you silly about rocks. very smart lady. but when it comes to sort of making money and that kind of stuff, it's just, that does not float her boat at all. So she lets me get on with it, which is great.

Aleyx:

Yeah.

Alan:

Yeah.

Aleyx:

Yeah. And what was it like in those early days, those first few years starting?

Alan:

stressful.

Aleyx:

Yeah.

Alan:

decided to quit my job, as I was a sales director, at, Dell. And, decided to quit my job. My son, our firstborn son was, firstborn child was 12 months old. and so we were new parents without, a real support network'cause we don't have any family in Melbourne. And, yeah, to go and start up a business and it was very, hand to mouth kind of stuff. And, there was one, don't get me wrong, it was very fulfilling as well. there's a big difference, Aleyx, I think, to, you know, oh, here's a, someone in Silicon Valley has given you a target because of a share price. if you don't do this, then the people you employ, Won't get paid and they can't pay their mortgage. That's a different type of purpose. And that sort of motivation and, it was far, better really, than working, for, me, personally, but also all the responsibility that came, with that. And, yeah, there, there were times I walked home in our office. It was very near my house and I, would sometimes just sit in my car and, have a. Like an ex a cry through just exhaustion. and get it out.'cause I didn't wanna bring that home to my wife and she,'cause she had a really bad postnatal. And it's not that I can't do that with my wife. I just felt like I wanted to do it. So, there were, some dark moments, and, but there was also, it was great because, I think a lot of the stuff that we have now, were very, very well structured, very well run company. we mitigate a as much risk we possibly can, whereas in the early days, we were, bit looser, but we didn't really have anything to lose. And the, our culture there was, we would, on a Friday afternoon, we would go to the pub at 3 30, 4 o'clock, have some knockoff beers and, de-stress, way, connect that way. and, yeah, it was, it was a different time. had an office that had an en suite toilet. That we weren't allowed to use because, at the time, we had one remote employee, but in the office, the first few people were male. And, just going for a pee, in the toilet would create such an echo sound that you could hear it on the customer call. So we weren't allowed to use it. but, it did'cause it was connected to the sewers. every so often, the sewers would smell and our whole office would stink of poo. And so I don't miss those days. but was rough and smooth is how I

Aleyx:

Yeah.

Alan:

Yeah,

Aleyx:

yeah. Sounds great.

Alan:

Yeah, it was really good. Yeah. I did a lot of calls, just with my AirPods in just walking up and down the road that was adjacent to the office.'cause it.

Aleyx:

yeah. So you would just, what would you have to go and use a local cafes toilet or something if you must.

Alan:

no, was, in a shared office building, so there were, there was, which just since been knocked down to give you an example of how as to how nice it was. but yeah, it was need must at the time,

Aleyx:

Yeah. Startup life,

Alan:

yeah.

Aleyx:

so it's very different for you now, I imagine.

Alan:

yeah, we, like, we're, St. Kilda. We're on St. Kilda Road now. We were in Richmond, which was kind of like good for that knockoff beer, local sort of, restaurants. And, there's a little bit more happening in Richmond than there is in St. Kilda Road. but we're here because, It is, it's, we're more corporate now and it's easier for everybody to, sort of get to, depending on whether they're down the peninsula or, to the west or whatever and stuff. yeah, it's a, it is a bit different now, but still a lot of fun. It's just a different type of fun. Yeah.

Aleyx:

Yes. Yeah. and amidst all the success and accolades that you've had, your, your daughter still thinks that you're, big old and funny, doesn't she, Alan?

Alan:

my daughter is the hardest task matter, Aleyx. She. the, Fe feedback is a gift. She is the most giving person I know. she holds me to account. She makes me play, K-Pop demon hunters on the way to school. And, actually, if she, goes too bad, she makes me play like Burger Dog from Bluey, then I'll put on Flower of Scotland. And, or, like fields of athenry or just rugby songs. And, so I'll counter her, but, her opinion of me, is a good one. But she'll give me balance. She won't put me on a pedestal, that's for sure. Yeah.

Aleyx:

Yeah, kids are great for that, aren't they? To keep us grounded. I also have to listen to K-pop demon hunters on repeat, which is, fun. yeah, so I got the, I got to speak to your daughter, didn't I? Ahead of the interview. And when I asked her if you were the boss at home, she said, no, mom's the boss. And when. Mom's not there. I'm the boss.

Alan:

Yeah.

Aleyx:

she really does keep you humble it sounds like.

Alan:

Yeah, and you know what? that, that's, there's a, in all good humour, there is truth, and just easier if you just do what they say, Aleyx, it's just easier. Just, could resist, but, every time I think to myself, I don't wanna die on that hill. In fact, there was a moment where, rare moment, when Jen and, my wife and, Grace, my daughter Gigi, they were having, because they're like a, she's like a mini version of Jen, Gigi. And they were having this argument or something, and I, wanted to go into sort of, keep the peace and I felt this tug on the back of my t-shirt and it was my son. Who's the wisest of the family. and I looked around and I said, what are you doing, mate? And he said, don't go in there, let's go upstairs. I, I was just, very wise, so yeah, I'm not ranked in the top two decision makers in the house, that's for sure.

Aleyx:

You know who boss. That's good. That's a good start. so everyone I spoke to head of the interview said that you, you're very funny and you bring a lot of humour to every scenario. have you always been like that Alan, growing up, were you always the funny kid?

Alan:

funny, weird, definitely. but no, I, do I do enjoy the, lighter side of, stuff. it's not, I wouldn't, I dunno if everybody would agree with whether I'm funny or not, but I definitely try. yeah.

Aleyx:

Has it ever got you into trouble? Your humour?

Alan:

yes,

Aleyx:

Yeah.

Alan:

so lots of times, and you know, the worst part, the down the downside of, trying to be lighthearted is, when you misread the situation, so sometimes I have, offended people and, in my youth, I think I did that recklessly and, carelessly in my, sense of. I've been a bit older. Sometimes it, it's, much rarer nowadays. But if it happens, that does, almost devastate me. I don't, wanna insult someone. So Yeah. occasionally I read the room wrong and say the wrong, but, yeah. So you do pay the price, but most people are forgiving.

Aleyx:

It's hard, isn't it? Especially with, humour.'cause everyone's got a different sense of humour. Like I, you know, I've got quite a dark sense of humour, so I will laugh at quite dark jokes, but then I know other people would, wouldn't enjoy it. So it can be quite, it can be quite difficult when everyone's got a different sense of humour. I remember when I. I came over here. you'll know British people are pretty sArkastic and I, spent, I've kind of stopped with the sArkasm'cause I spent my first couple years in Australia just telling people, no, I'm just joking.

Alan:

Yeah. Oh, no. I find the same thing. I'm trying to wind somebody up, especially, so not a kind of knock joke or, you know, sort of traditional joke if I'm trying to wind someone up, which I is probably my favorite start style of humour. If I can just draw people into a scenario and, then they realise, this is ridiculous. I, so I've trained myself to have a serious face and, so the sArkasm you, I, often do with a serious face. And Australia when I found the same thing when I first got here. Australians will take that as face value and Oh, right. He's, obnoxious. The other thing they don't like Aleyx, is they don't like giving you time to tell the joke. They're like, so what's the punchline? What is it? What is it? what? no. Whereas when I have, when I talk to my friends back home, they'll happily let me tell them funny anecdote or a story or whatever, because they're ju or even a joke.'cause they're looking for weakness. So the more I talk, the more opportunity they have for weakness. and when I, it comes to the crescendo or the punchline or whatever, they can shoot it down. and they're very happy to give you the time. whereas Australians are like, they're very, here and now. if they are, I think Aussies are great. It's just a different type of humour, isn't it?

Aleyx:

Yeah, completely different humour. I just did, I just learned how to do standup. It was over a five day period and the comedian that was coaching us was like, get there quicker. I was like, okay, I'm trying.

Alan:

it's tough, isn't it?

Aleyx:

It's really tough. so where did the obsession with sharks start?

Alan:

I lived with my parents in Saudi Arabia. very young. And in the Red Sea, they had, adapted trainers. They had a, I think it was a aluminum or steel, thing on the sole of their shoes so that they wouldn't stand on stone fish.'cause you stand on one spike goes up, you stand on again, then it's poisonous. And, I, dunno what the medical situation was like in Jedah and. early 1980s. But, and then, they came back from snorkeling one time and said that they had seen a shark and it caused, their friend to have a panic attack or whatever. and that really triggered my interest. And then I remember them watching jaws and they let me watch jaws, which probably is not the best parenting, for, it would've been like three or four years old, four years old.

Aleyx:

Oh wow.

Alan:

Yeah, that's what started my imagine capturing my imagination. And then, when we moved back home to the UK in Bath. they bought me some books on sharks, so I decided to write my own book on sharks. So I had this folder, I was probably six years old, and it says Dr. Alan Gill like lime green folder. And I started, plagiarising from the shark books that I got, was te. Came on to be a bit of a theme in my life. trying to work as little as possible to get the results I wanted. and yeah, it just went from there. And I just, learned more and more about sharks and I think sort of alluded to neuro diversity earlier. the Asperger's in me, often you do find a specialism or some sort of obsession and, that was it for, me in sharks. And it's never, gone. It's got just built and built. Yeah.

Aleyx:

I loved it when I was speaking to people, ahead of this, when they were, you know, all of them brought up sharks. and was it Daniella said that you drew a shark with, a hat?'cause she loves Jamira choir. I just quite like it that you personalise it for people and you'll draw sharks and meetings and things. It's, very unique.

Alan:

Yeah, it's, very odd, isn't it? one, one of the, managers here, Dave, he, I think he secretly likes my sharks, but publicly, he goes, oh, is it another shark? Does it look the same as all of the other ones? No. this one's to your point there, this is, this one's like the headdress. They're like the, you know, native American, and when new people come in, I say to them, Hey, by the way, you might have seen a few sharks around the office. if you would like, I can draw you a shark, but it has to be right, via request. Okay? and and then Dave will hear this and he'll come over and go, don't feel obligated. Don't do it. Don't, you don't need a shark. There's no, why would you need a shark to be good at, energy broking or you, don't need one. and then yeah, often someone will say, yeah, can you make it, a Viking shark or whatever else it is? And, yeah, I enjoy doing that. Yeah. So it is odd, it's odd.

Aleyx:

So if you were to draw me a shark, how would you personalise it?

Alan:

Well, it depends what you would want, but, if you said to me, you just do whatever you want, then I would, probably, try to incorporate some kind of podcasting shark, you know, with a baseball cap and some, you know, over phones and a, microphone or something like that. that would. And a lot of the stuff, I dunno how to draw. So I have to go and learn, how to draw a viking and how to draw whatever, which is fun as well. So it's more of a challenge.

Aleyx:

does drawing, does drawing help you,'cause you showed at the start, you know, the drawing that you've got, does that help you kind of, de-stress and concentrate things like that? Does it, has it got another role to play or is it just pure for fun?

Alan:

I know it does. so in meetings it, a lot of people find it, or guess that it's disrespectful. I won't do it in all meetings, but in people in meetings internally or with people that know me, or, that are happily draw, we are a discussion. and that helps me to concentrate, on, in the meeting as well.'cause, I, a lot of diagnosis goes around nowadays, but I've always just been bored of, just professional, to the point conversation that goes on for anything longer than 20 minutes, really. I, that then I'll start drawing because I don't want to not be present in the room. And so by drawing, I am being present, but I'm just. gives, that means I can stay in the room for an hour and a half if I need to.

Aleyx:

yeah. So it might look like you're not listening, but in actual fact that's helping you to concentrate on what's being said.

Alan:

Yeah, absolutely. And it helps me to form an opinion on what's being said or a question. and and as I said with people that, I'm familiar with, sometimes I won't even look up from the drawing. I'll just ask the question. it's. Yeah. I'm sure it's not best practice, but it does help me to be present. It does have, and the other thing I like is, it gives me another reason with my daughter, she's really good at art and we have draw, draw offs. So, we did, what did we do? We did a butterfly, on the weekend. And we did a side by side and we, put down the, the middle of the paper, dad and Gigi. And, my butterfly was easily better than hers, there's no doubt about it. Right. but she managed to do a backdrop and where the butterfly had flown with some dotted lines, and then she knew who the judge was gonna be. And at the top she went, I love you, mom. she put that, so this,

Aleyx:

She's smart.

Alan:

yeah. So I took it to my son, who would be objective about it, and he goes, dad's butterflies. Easily better look at it. yeah.

Aleyx:

So it was a draw.

Alan:

drawing helps me to bond with my daughter who, a hundred percent of everybody's time all the time. and so sometimes when you just can't be bothered to go to the park for the second time in the day or whatever, then I'll happily sit down and draw'cause that's not too taxing

Aleyx:

Yeah.

Alan:

That's fun.

Aleyx:

Yeah. Yeah. Nice, going back to your earlier career, before choice, so you mentioned before that you, you worked at Dell and, you worked at Salesforce as well. Is that correct?

Alan:

Yeah. so De

Aleyx:

Yeah.

Alan:

Dell, Salesforce, and Symantec were probably the three, biggest, companies, that I worked at. And I also, worked for a company called Tradeshift, which was a startup and went on to become. Like a Silicon Valley, unicorn. And so I was with them for, I think it was two and a half years. So I was the second sales employee there. and yeah, that was quite interesting as well because it was very well funded, startup from Copenhagen, I was living in London. And, and that I've had other jobs, but they would probably be the four sort of, standout ones, that I had.

Aleyx:

Yeah.

Alan:

Yeah.

Aleyx:

Yeah. And what did you, learn from, those different roles that you were able to take into to your business? Because obviously you've gone from a really big corporate to also a startup. Was there, key things in each of those roles that, that you brought to, choice?

Alan:

Yeah. good. So I think like. When, regardless whether you're learning an instrument or playing sport or whatever it is, stand up, you'll, see people that practice, that, discipline and you'll pick up things from them that you think, I like that I'm, I, when I play that, I'm going to do it that way. And you'll see things that they do and you think, that's not for me. I can't, I don't subscribe to that. and so from the software industry. I love the, the rigor, that, with, targets, meetings, appraisals, check-ins, education, training, development. the, there's a heap of really good practice that comes from software. and I wanna sort of. Really give a shout out to, the Americans. particularly the Californians. They work so hard. They work so, so, hard. A lot of the sort of personal development when it comes to sales. I, hear people saying, oh, not another whiny American accent. And I kind of say to them, guys, we live in the land of no worries. they live. They, have, a lot, like 10 days holiday a year. They have a lot of national holidays, whatever. But, you can get fired, without any particular reason at any time. In America, we, they, they don't have the protection that we have here, and so they work really hard. so I think that in lots of ways they pave the way so working for those software companies definitely learned a lot of that and respect still to this day. I respect a lot of that. Or on the, flip side is there's a load of crap. I get it. If you're a publicly listed company, you have to report to Wall Street or whoever, whichever, exchange that you're on, to two shareholders. You have to give forecasts and that kind of stuff. I, I understand that. But you know, I, would spend, for example, when I was at Dell, I, as a sales director, I had, seven or eight. I think seven direct reports. And then, of those was a manager who had six reports. So it, I would spend easily 20% of my time getting a weekly forecast together. So that's one in five days. So I've really got four days to coach, to support, to challenge, to nurture, and to make sure that things happen. that's ridiculous. I, I. I think so, we don't do any forecasting, at Choice Energy. we focus on the process and, that there's an expression, you marry the process, you divorce the results. just, because it went well. that's a good thing. Doesn't mean you're a superstar. You there, there may have been some luck in there just because it goes badly and you're terrible at your job. you may have had some bad luck in there. what you'd f what you do is you focus on, you look for success leaves clues. So you look at how do we get to where we were? What could we do better to improve that process? how can we. people the right tools, environment, support, to, to enjoy, what they're doing and to become more effective at it. spend our time on that. rather than w worrying what we may or may not do, who cares what we may not do? We, and so we don't have shareholders as it, I owned by myself and my business partner. If we had shareholders, then I'm sure that, that it's a luxury that, that we wouldn't be able to enjoy. I think, that, and then the other one that really gets, gets me is, kickoffs sales kickoffs. I mean, I, I, I just, I enjoyed the, corporate kind of camaraderie, but people that were going, yeah, I, you know, cut my veins open. I bleed yellow. like I, get it. People are really bought into the companies that they work for, and that's cool. I'm more con like at Choice Energy, for example, I don't want anyone to say, I bleed blue. I, I want people to say, working here is fun and it helps me to, with, a balance and opportunity in my life. And my career. And that's, for me, it's all about the, and I don't just say this, I've been through, leadership, mentoring and coaching in my time stuff. And I really don't care about the money, very much. it you need it to, but it's what I'm much more interested in the people. there's a guy we have in our Queensland office who wants to become a movie director, and that fascinates me. So when I catch up with him, I don't say, you know, Hey. your elevator pitch going or whatever. If he wants me to, we can talk about it, but I'm more like, so what are you writing at the moment? That fascinates me far more than else. So the whole sort of sales kickoff. So I remember going to one Aleyx and was themed as they all are, but it was themed around, clocks. And, well before the kickoff, there's all these clocks going, tick, tick, and you know, audio visual was amazing and whatever. And the like, on the channel of the speaker, whatever they're going, it's time, and, it's time was, we're going to own, what was it? the targets had gone up 40% in Asia-Pac and we were gonna. We were gonna own 20% of the market, but the market was only growing at 6%. So what are we gonna do? Why is our products so much better than all of our competi? This is bollocks. It's just rubbish. I don't, survive to it. you know, thanks for the cocktail and, the nice hotel room. But, and I do, you know, the education sessions are good, but I, just never bought into that stuff and I, don't run any costs or anything like that here. more more have a party at the end of the natural year. At the end of the calendar year. but yeah, I think it's a load of crap.

Aleyx:

Yeah, so you're able to bring what you did like from other ones and leave what you didn't. And it sounds like you're, you know, you're much more vested in the team and the people, to ensure you're helping them and connecting with them, which is not too dissimilar from a lot of the people that I've spoken to on the podcast. So there's definitely some similar similarities there. Oh, I struggle with that word. There we go. I've mispronounced the word for you, Alan.

Alan:

Okay. I'm keeping a tally, but there we go. That's fine. it's not the first, I'll give you a score at the end, but the, but the other thing there, Aleyx, is it's not selfless, is it? like when we came outta COVID, we took the team up to the, sunshine Coast, and we just said, you can work or not work. your target's still your target. But you can do as much or little work. We had a serviced office that we hired for five days. and then some people spent all their time on the beach. Sometimes some people spent eight hours a day in the office and then came out for dinner, or whatever.'cause that's what they wanted to do. and everyone was really appreciative of, look, COVID was tough. Re really, thanks for doing this to sort of welcome us back to work. But it's not completely selfless. you are going to. More productive, knowing that you work for a company that cares about you. So we will make more money by investing in you anyway. It's not, it's not a charity and I don't understand. I've worked in businesses that just can't comprehend that. They see that as a cost, not, an investment. it's not selfless.

Aleyx:

It seems like my husband's worked in the same company for 10 years and people like, that's unheard of. He is but they look after us. It's a great culture. Why would it go anywhere else? They pay well, you know, all these different things. And it does, it, it sounds simple, but sometimes we just, I think companies just forget, that. Just look after your people and you know, they'll look after your customers. It's quite basic.

Alan:

Yeah. that doesn't stop the ma the, mad world of HR though, that, it, is so easy to be judgmental to sort of look at the things that. I come across because as a director of company, I have to be aware of, I don't, I'm not involved in much, but have to be aware of it because I'm liable for people's, wellbeing and safety. and some of the things you see, you just think. What, how, is your life? This, how have you added so much drama to your own life when you don't need to? But that's easy to be judgemental. And then you have a, little look at yourself. How are you doing in your life, Alan? Ah, that's different. That's different. And so I do believe that people are the best and worst thing about business is that people are both. They're both.

Aleyx:

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it is hard when, I worked in, before I started, my business and I'd manage a team, I used, to find that so difficult because you're, you managing people, it becomes a, job in itself. It's, not easy.

Alan:

Well, yeah, I think it gets easy when you put the right fit though, Aleyx. I think, when, and sometimes, you do get people that, are talented, that, are working hard, but they're not enjoying their job, they're not, we have, whilst once we have a lot of fun, if you wear a bad shirt into the office before you get to make your coffee in the morning, someone's gonna tell you about it. from personal experience at least. but, I, I think, but we are a high performance, environment as well. And we get some people, that join us that are capable. They work hard, but, they're, not gonna be in the top sort of 20% of performers and that bothers them, but they're not willing to work. you know, hard enough or be patient enough to get in that position. And, the fits wrong for them. they, would rather be a, big fish in their little pond kind of thing. and so I think that fit, once you've got that people, feel understood, then it, managing people becomes a lot easier once the, you know, that the fit is right. Yeah.

Aleyx:

Yeah. Yeah. It's gotta be the right fit and that's why culture is so important as well. Alan, this podcast is called Naked At the Top, as you know. and my, I was telling you off camera, my last guest last week said, I reckon you can go deeper. you're my Guinea pig,

Alan:

Okay.

Aleyx:

for this. So you've built this incredible business. You're leading a team, you're a dad, you're a husband, but when you strip all of that away, who are you underneath all those titles? Alan?

Alan:

yeah. Alan, is a, 9-year-old boy, Uh, wants to wind people up and, help people. That's, me. that's why I love being a dad so much, especially the kids of the age that are, that they're eight and 10 years old. Right. So I'm in my sweet spot, when they become teenagers and tell me to sort off then maybe I'll play some golf. Maybe that'll be Alan. I dunno. But, Yeah. I am, I'm a child and, I say to my wife, is a poor. when she said, she, she'll say, C, can you, just, be an adult for a change? And I say, but that's not my fault. You know, when we got married, you thought that you could change me, but you couldn't. And so whose fault is that? Is that my fault for not changing or your fault for thinking that you could change me? And she'll go around in circles. So she just goes, go away. But, or, but, yeah, that, that's who I. When I'm, a mischievous, and supportive, so I want to, if I'm helping someone. Awesome. I feel good. like even, we have a cleaner, lady. She's from Columbia and she's, she's really good fun. but when she's cleaning, I find myself cleaning the house'cause I feel guilty. That she's cleaning and I could be helping her. So if I just do this bit, then that will make that bit easier for her. And so that's my natural sort of, let's get involved. but at the same time, that's what happened last week. And at the same she's, pregnant. And, I said to her, at the end, she said, bye, Alan. Bye Jenny. And I said, Hey, do you mind me asking, do you know if, you're gonna have a boy or a girl? And, says that she's Colombian. And, she goes, it's gonna be a little boy. And I said, okay. And is your husband okay that, you'll be calling the boy Alan? And was like, ah, you're such an idiot. and so that's that me in the same 45 minutes I've managed to help her and then, wind her up. so that's, Alan. Yeah.

Aleyx:

Do you get, do you get joy out of, you know, making people laugh as well? Like you seeing them smile?

Alan:

Yeah, especially, people who, won't go looking for fun, but they have it in them in abundance. so you've had a previous guest on here, that you in interviewed me about, who had lunch with yesterday. and he has it in spades. It's right there. but he, depending on who he's talking to and stuff, he's very rarely the instigator. and so with people like that, it's even more fun. Like my friend Ross, I talked, we've just started beginning a podcast in the u He's in the uk. and he's always fun. He's always fun. having fun, with Ross, winding Ross up, is probably less satisfaction than there is, with somebody like Tal. just, when you can draw, we can draw, out what's just underneath the surface anyway.

Aleyx:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'll be able to draw it out. It's funny what you said about your wife, what she said to you.'cause I do that sometimes, like me and my husband joke around a lot, but sometimes I'll say to him, can you just not be. Be silly just for a minute, and I can tell by his facial expression if he's in a silly mood and sometimes in a bad mood. I'm like, I'm not in a silly mood. Just don't. He is oh, but I can't help it. So it's very similar

Alan:

Definitely,

Aleyx:

when

Alan:

sorry. You go.

Aleyx:

You go.

Alan:

Well, no, there is that definite, Venus and Mars thing isn't there. there's something universal about, I, I, helped, there's a young guy in business and, he was, nervous about networking events and presentations and last Saturday we met at my office and I said, okay, here's the thing. My cat, is an indoor cat He's never seen a predator in his life, but when we put down food and he is completely motivated by food, we put down food, he'll go straight to the food and then he'll check. Just to make sure that whilst he's eating, there's no predators around. No one's taught him to do that. That's just instinctive. Right? And it's instinctive. it is humans, that if we go into an environment where we don't know anyone, there could be danger. because, and yeah, I think that, when it comes to the Mars and Venus things being parents, how many times, you could say to everybody, is. the dad winds up the kids before bed. The dad spends, 45 minutes in the toilet. When you were married, you didn't spend 45 minutes in the toilet. These are just universal, things. And so that sort of, Mars and Venus thing, is accentuated, I think in parenthood. You see it, the common thread for everybody.

Aleyx:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So family obviously is a big anchor for you. We've talked a little about your, wife and kids. How do you, I'm always interested in, how people that are running successful businesses, how you hate the word balance, but how do you ensure that, you know, you're there for your family, you're there for their business. what are some of the things that you have to put into practice?

Alan:

I, love a, calendar. that helps. even when we first started dating in London, my wife and I had a shared Google calendar basically. and inbox zero, I operate on that as well. I've got maybe seven in my inbox at the moment, but at the end of the day I will have zero. so that's a discipline where like we, we were in, on holiday in July. And, were mucking around in the pool and, wife was probably on social media or probably, you know, playing Candy Crush or something, and I was, doing an email and she goes, why are you working? Well, because I, one, I enjoy what I do. And two, if I do this now, it means it won't be waiting for me when I get back. And the person I'm providing it for, can now take action. They don't have to wait until I get back. And so ball, and once I've finished the email, I can sit back and join my, mocktail or whatever knowing that I've got inbox zero. and trying to keep on, to keep the plate spinning is how I balance a lot of things. And, been through some, pretty, challenging times recently. the other thing is I, call my friends. I speak to a lot. I, would spend, I've always done that, even when I was at uni. I would be on the phone, on, on my mobile the whole time, just, talking to people and that, that helps me to, Bit of perspective. also pick up someone's joke, use it on everybody else, pass it off as my own. big fan of that. but yeah, connecting so you don't get isolated.

Aleyx:

Yeah. And that's, and that is quite uncommon I think,'cause men do find it harder to, do that than, women certainly know my husband, he is rubbish at keeping in touch with people. But I remember when I spoke to, you, or was it you? I can't remember, but you and Tal speak to each other quite a lot and I found that, Quite refreshing'cause you don't often hear of, men as much, keeping in touch and always chatting on the phone. yeah, it's good that you do that.

Alan:

yeah, he, so he's the master at, you said you wanna go deeper. Tal is the master at taking a completely nonsensical, conversation and going, but what does that mean? And going down another level we both know it's absolute trite. We're talking rubbish. We're completely wasting our. We're not wasting our time'cause we're getting value and connection, all that kinda stuff. But we're talking about, there was one, how much does, someone from the Cirque de Soleil earn and how much should they earn? And, what and why is, their performance related? Is their, pay performance related, as, and how, much, should they earn? How, important is their profession? We talked about that for 45 minutes and neither of us know anything about it. it's just, it's ridiculous, but. Then you can go in saying to the next task, which might be like, I've got one at the moment. It's something to do with, duplication of CRM data then data cleansing. Now I've been in Australia on data cleansing. and so I, that, that's gonna take up so much energy for me just to have that. I just addressing that'cause it bores the hell of me. But it's okay if I've just talked. Absolutely. Tried for my lunch break with, Tal. don't have to be, but he, is the master at it wander go and go and it's a lot of fun. Yeah.

Aleyx:

Where did you get to with Circ de Soleil?

Alan:

we both to do some more research because, both sides of the coin would theoretical. yeah, there were some, there were various action points from that conversation.

Aleyx:

Love it. Tom and I husband, Tom's had a lot of debates around football, soccer for the Australian Listen listeners, but football players. And I always say it's ridiculous how much they get paid. And he is well, it's supply and demand. so it's not, so we've had a lot of debates around that, but he actually knows what he's talking about when it comes to football.

Alan:

Well, I mean, they're entertainers, right? So in France, you're a professional sports person, you get classed, at 10% tax because you're an entertainer. So if you're a, poet, you, pay the same tax as a rugby player, because you're both, entertainers. And, don't get me wrong, you could shoot the French down all day, like we did at, but I could shoot'em down all day. But some of the things I think they get right and then. yeah, foot footballers. I mean, look at, everyone wants to watch it. sponsors want to give the money so the money's there. So that's what they get and that's what the market pays. do, are they as important, as, you know, a paramedic? No, but there, but interestingly, when we had, the pandemic and everyone had lockdowns, it was sports and entertainment got dispensation because, it is actually really good for mental health, for. and so is pe, are people's men, is that more important than a paramedic? You could go on and on, couldn't you? But Yeah. they do.

Aleyx:

yeah, they do. I quite like going back to what, you said Tal does. He is almost like a child in that respect. You know? My, my two year old's just learned the word why, so it's almost yeah, but why? Yeah, but why?

Alan:

Yeah.

Aleyx:

So you can have a good conversation with my 2-year-old.

Alan:

Well, I think what tell's hoping for is a dead end. But I'll never give him that. The worst we can get is how I genuinely have to go and do something that's business now. Yeah.

Aleyx:

But then again, it's just a proof of what I talked about, you know, near the start of, you know, how important it is to have fun and see the light and everything. you know, so you've, proved that. And staying on the topic of, jokes. We are coming close to the end, Alan, but I have been told, to get you to tell me your Noah's Ark joke.

Alan:

Oh no. Okay. Right. So is why you asked. Okay. Right. Noah is a busy pillar of the community and, God says to him, Hey mate, to interrupt. I know that you're busy and everything. got a bit of a job for you. what I need you to do is build me a huge ark, right? Absolutely massive. it, it's gotta be so big that we can fit all of the land animals. Two by two. and good news is, your family and your mates, they can come on board as well, so that they're involved. but we gonna do, because I'm not happy with what's gone on, so what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna flood the whole world. and then we're just gonna start again Noah goes, okay. Well yeah. First of all, thanks for thinking of me. but, okay, we'll, get started. So they build the ark, and they get the animals on two by two. And, God, true to his word, floods the earth. and after 40 dayss and 40 nights at sea, it's been pretty rough. It's been pretty, but the good news is the waters start to subside and land appears Noah and his family managed to, to dock the boat, and get off on land. And God gives them a couple of days, Aleyx. Because it's been rough. Right? And he goes, Hey Noah, how you going? And he goes, look, I again, I, wanna stress it again. Thanks for thinking of me. but it has been rough. we're no, house or anything like that. and the tigers have not been getting on. And, there is animal shit absolutely everywhere. but the good news is we found enough materials. We think that we can start building a house, tomorrow. And God goes, yeah, before you start on that, a bit of a job for you. And Noah goes, go on. And he goes, I'd like you to build me an Ark.... and he goes... Can't we use that one? And he goes, no, no, don't worry, don't worry. It doesn't need to be nearly as long as that one. it can be much shorter, but do want it to be a lot taller. I dunno how many less, probably about 20 stories. 20 stories. And I, and it's got to be water-tight because I'm going to fill it with fish. And Noah, it goes, I'm not tr I'm not questioning you. I'm just, trying to get a bit of clarifi... what, when you say fish, what? Surely they survived the flood, didn't they? and he goes, no, it's not any fish. It's specifically, it's carp. And He goes, what? They're like over-sized Goldfish? He goes Yeah, yeah. He goes, okay. Just so we're on the same page, God, before I can build myself a house, you want me to build you, a multi-storey Carp Park?

Aleyx:

I don't get it.

Alan:

I. carp, the ark is 20 stories high. You're never gonna get that time back, Aleyx, ever.

Aleyx:

I was hoping as you're telling that I was like, God, I hope I get this joke.

Alan:

It's terrible.

Aleyx:

You make that up yourself, Alan.

Alan:

no. Well, it's a variation of my brother's joke.

Aleyx:

Yeah. Yeah.

Alan:

Yeah. he does it with, you know, God going serious voice, all this. And I think it's much better if God and Noah just having, you know, like a, sort of a pub conversation about the end of the world. yeah. Yeah. the same way as Tony Soprano has to deal with, there's gonna be a hit on his life, but there's also ducks and

Aleyx:

I love that. yeah. I love that.

Alan:

but, I'm being asked to, room, Aleyx,

Aleyx:

Alright, fantastic. Can I ask you our last question? Alright, so I always end on, I kind of pass it on for the listeners. So what's one insight, for someone out there that might need to hear from you right now in terms of how to just keep going with their business?

Alan:

do you are doing things. Now that most people are not willing to do, to achieve things that most people will never achieve,

Aleyx:

I love it. It's a great piece of advice to end on. Thank you so much, Alan, for joining me on Naked At the Top.

Alan:

you are very welcome. Thanks, Aleyx.

Head Shot

Aleyx Ward

Host

Podcasts we love

Check out these other fine podcasts recommended by us, not an algorithm.