Braving the Brightside

The Void is Where Creativity Lives with Sean Mabry

• Season 2 • Episode 32

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Send a message into the Brightside

What happens when grief, creativity, fatherhood, and purpose all collide?

This week on Braving the Brightside, storyteller, ghostwriter, and author coach Sean Mabry joins me for a thoughtful conversation about surviving difficult seasons, finding meaning in life's darkest moments, and why authentic human stories matter now more than ever. We explore creativity, the rise of AI, personal transformation, and the surprising places where hope can still be found.

Because sometimes the void isn't something to fear.

Sometimes it's where the next chapter begins.

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Book Clarity Engine: https://mabry-messaging.kit.com/bookclarity

Official Brightside Playlist: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1QnOBVBM8NRC9nFtxcPEpd?si=uGOTwlqyTRSqggcMCJhzSQ

The Rethreadery-Sustainable Style: therethreadery.com-Use Code BRIGHTSIDE for 15% Off!

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New episodes every Friday at 2 pm on all major podcast platforms. Interested in being a guest or perhaps just wanna chat and share opinions or concerns? Email me at Bravingthebrightside@gmail.com or slide into the dm's as the kid's say @braving_thebrightside

Appreciate yous.

Love,

Dan

SPEAKER_00

Creativity is often painted as something magical, a spark, an idea, a bolt of inspiration. But I think for a lot of us, creativity is something else entirely. It's how we make sense of the things that hurt. It's how we organize grief. It's how we turn confusion into meaning and chaos into something we can actually hold in our hands. Some of the most beautiful art, stories, businesses, and ideas in the world weren't born from comfort. They were born from struggle, from loss, from questions that really didn't have easy answers. And while we'd all love to avoid those darker chapters in life, sometimes they're the very places where our deepest growth begins. Because hope isn't pretending that the darkness doesn't exist. What I like about hope is that hope can be defiant. Defiant towards the darkness. Because it's in hope that you're choosing to create anyway. It's choosing to believe that what what you've been through isn't the end of your story. That there is still something worth creating, something worth tracing, something worth becoming. And maybe because that's the challenge for all of us. Not to avoid the difficult chapters, not to try to outrun them, but to find the courage to sit with them long enough to discover what they're actually trying to teach us. Because sometimes the places we fear most becomes the places we grow the most. And sometimes the void isn't where the story ends. Sometimes it's where the next chapter begins. My name's Dan Bradley, and this is Braving the Bright Side. Hello, bright siders, and welcome back to, well, the Bright Side. It is a gorgeous afternoon just outside of Philly. The sun is shining, the birds are chirping, and perhaps most importantly, the Phillies appear to be to have remembered how to play baseball again. And have climbed their way back into second place. I know with everything happening in the world right now, that is the update many of you have been desperately waiting for. Listen, sometimes you just gotta find the bright spots where you can get them, you know? Uh before we jump into the feel good news segment, I did want to share something with you. Um the last year of doing this podcast, um, plus other things, something interesting has happened. I mean, between the podcast and then speaking events and just conversations out in the wild, uh, more and more people have been reaching out and asking some version of the of the same question. Dan, can I just pick your brain for a few minutes? And usually what follows, it's not usually like a like a business question or a productivity problem or anything like that. Usually it's, you know, life problems, like regular problems that we all kind of run into. Um, someone standing at crossroads and not know, not knowing where to go or how to make a decision, or someone who knows something needs to change, but isn't quite sure what the next move is and what that looks like. You know, someone who feels like they've been driving around with the check engine light on for so long that they've stopped noticing it's even there, which as someone who's currently driving, physically driving a car with the check engine light, believe me, I get it. So after a lot of thought, I've decided to officially open up five more spots for what I'm calling the reset button. Now, it's a simple 20-minute conversation, no pressure, no weird sales tactics, no guy in a rant rented Lamborghini telling you to wake up at 3 30 a.m. and grind harder. Uh, it's just gonna be two human beings just being honest about where you are, where you'd like to be, and what might be standing in the way. Sometimes all it takes is one conversation to help you see something you've been too close to see on your own. So the spots are intentionally limited because uh honestly I want to make sure I can give people my full attention. So if that's something that you've been curious about, uh you can find the the link for my calendy in the episode description. So if you're interested, book a call. 20 minutes, like I said, no pressure, and we'll chat. All right, sound good? All right, enough about that. Let's uh let's jump into the feel good news segment, shall we? All right, bright siders. Well, because the world gives us enough doom and gloom as it is, anytime you open your phone or turn on the TV or just speak out loud in the world. Here's your reminder that not everything is broken. It's time for the feel good news segment. All right, number one, owl returns to the wild after a seven-month rescue journey. A juvenile great-horned owl in Utah somehow became trapped inside a cement mixer and was found with part of its body literally encased in hardened concrete. Wildlife rescuers spent months helping the bird recover. They performed daily treatments, carefully removed the concrete, and even attached donor feathers through a process called imping to restore the owl's ability to fly. After seven months of rehabilitation, the owl finally spread its wings and returned to the wild. Number two, a bird thought extinct in the wild is making a comeback. Conservationists, I don't know why I have such trouble saying that word all the time, announced encouraging progress for the Vietnam Pheasant. A bird that has not been seen in the wild for roughly two decades. Through coordinated breeding and conservation efforts, researchers are working towards rebuilding populations and restoring habitat for the species. For years, the story looked like one of extinction. Now it's becoming a story of recovery. It's one of my favorite stories. Electric truck completes major freight milestone. An all-electric freight truck recently completed a major commercial route between Canberra and Sydney in Australia, while reportedly reducing fuel costs by more than 80%. While electric transportation often gets discussed in theory, this was a real-world commercial test showing that cleaner transportation can also make economic sense. A plant species once considered dangerously close to disappearing forever has made a remarkable comeback thanks to years of conservation work. The recovery highlights something we don't hear often enough environmental success stories. When people commit to protecting ecosystems long enough, damaged habitats can recover. Number five, scientists use cloning to help save critically rare wild yak. Researchers announced a first of its kind effort to help preserve an endangered golden subspecies of wild yak, numbering fewer than 300. Using advanced cloning technology, scientists hope to increase genetic diversity and improve the species' long-term survival. Number six, this one's crazy, ready? Ooh, boy howdy. Missing dog found 40 feet underground. A four Florida family spent a week searching for their missing dog before rescuers finally located the pup at the bottom of a 40-foot deep sinkhole. Special operation crews used ropes and rescue equipment to descend into the hole and safely bring the dog back to service. The reunion photos are exactly what you'd expect. Relieved owners, a very confused dog, and a reminder that people will go to extraordinary lengths for creatures they love. Number seven, entire community bands together to save eleven ducklings. Residents in Long Island noticed 11 ducklings trapped inside a storm drain. Neighbors, animal rescuers, and volunteers worked together to lift the grate, rescue the ducklings, and reunite them with their mother. Once everyone was safely out, the duck family waddled off together towards a nearby canal. No politics, no outrage, just people seeing something vulnerable and deciding to help. Last but not least, number eight, researchers discover a natural way to remove microplastics from water. Scientists found that seeds from the moringa tree, I think I'm saying that right, moringa can remove more than 98% of the microplastic particles from water. Microplastics have become one of the most challenging environmental issues facing the planet. So finding a natural and inexpensive fil filtered filtrate filtration method, geez, uh, could have major implications around the world. It's the kind of breakthrough that reminds us solutions can come from unexpected places. Sometimes the answer isn't building something new, it's paying closer attention to what nature already built. And that is your good news, your feel good news segment. Proof that while chaos may grab the headlines, kindness, innovation, perseverance, and hope, they're still quietly doing their work every single day. All right, let's switch gears real quick, shall we? Let's talk about our upcoming interview. My guest today is Sean Mabry, a storyteller, ghostwriter, author coach, and lifelong student of what makes great stories resonate. But this conversation that we're you're about to listen to goes much further beyond just writing. We talk about grief, creativity, fatherhood, identity, the rise of AI, because really you can't escape it anymore, and what it means to create something meaningful in a world that often feels increasingly artificial. It's an honest, thoughtful conversation about finding purpose in difficult seasons and learning how to transform life's hardest moments into something that lasts. Here's my conversation with Sean Mabry. Storyteller, ghostwriter, copy coach, and author of the upcoming memoir Penned in Flames: a deeply personal exploration of grief, identity, fatherhood, creativity, and what it means to keep building when life gets heavy. Sean, welcome to Braving the Bright Side, my friend. How are you?

SPEAKER_02

I'm good. Uh I I should have mentioned that that's a working title. Um, I already know I'm gonna change it, so the book will have a different title when it comes out. But that's fine for now. I don't know what the new title is gonna be yet, so that that's fine.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so this is the working title. Pen in flames is the working title. Um well, it's a great name for working title. Tell you what. How's your day going so far? All right.

SPEAKER_02

It's good. Yeah. I uh been just a lot of networking, meeting cool people. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I'm feeling true. Very cool. I love that. That's perfect for this right now.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

First and foremost, what and this is just me personally wondering this. What is a copy coach? Because I've read through your whole thing and I was like, well, I don't know what a copy coach is. So walk me through that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So a copy coach is essentially someone who helps you become a better copywriter. And that's something I started doing. Um, boy, when did I start? It would have been like 2021 at the latest. And uh for me, that was after years uh working as a copywriter um at a pretty high level. And I I myself had worked with a lot of copy coaches to get to where I was at then. Um and so I mean, really bring me their copy every week, and then I would critique it based on you know what was working, what wasn't. Um, and then also in in both cases, I I knew well, the different groups I was in, I knew which business model they were running. So that was part of it, too, is it making sure that like doing email marketing versus Facebook ads, those things work very differently. Like there are things that will work in a Facebook ad that don't work in an email and vice versa. So that's the kind of stuff I would call out and be like, hey, like you, you know, be mindful of the platform, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. Uh very cool. I mean, that's like something that I didn't even know existed. So that's fascinating. That's really cool. Yeah. So quick overview for people who don't know you. I know I just kind of gave a brief synopsis of who you are, but why don't you just introduce yourself to the audience?

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So my name's Sean Mabry, uh, as Daniel correctly pronounced. Very grateful for that. And uh I uh these days I'm primarily a ghostwriter and author coach. So kind of similar to what I was just saying about copy coaching. Now I'm helping people who want to write the book themselves and giving the juice that I'm able to give my my ghostwriting clients. Um, because a lot of the same, you know, it's the same frameworks, the same tools, the same mindset. I can package and share that uh in a coaching context without you paying me to write the full book, because that's a very different engagement. Namely, it's more expensive. Um and also there are a lot of people that are capable writers and want to write the book themselves, but they need the structure to put their ideas into a book. Like writing a book is not the same thing as you know, maintaining a substack, right? Or writing emails or writing Facebook ads, right? Like I get a lot of people that can write those things perfectly well, and yet the book is different, and they know that. Like they understand that the book is a different animal, and so they need someone to help help them bring it to life and make sure it has the structure that a book needs. And uh, as far as how I got into that, um there's a lot of twists and turns to that story we can dive into. But yeah, um really I'm I'm I'm a died and old writer. It's always been the sort of north star of my life. And uh really with the ghostwriting, it's kind of the I see it as the ultimate comp culmination of all the different hats I've worn because it's business in the sense I'm working with authors and founders and experts who want the book for authority positioning, but also I'm able to bring my literary depth and all the things that I obsessed over, you know, like in high school and college about storytelling and history and all these great things, the humanities, right? The the sort of the whole tent there. Uh so yeah, there's like I said, there's tons of different twists and turns you could dive into there, but that's probably a good overview for now.

SPEAKER_00

That's great. Um, yeah, I really love, I mean, like you just said, there's a lot of twists and turns in your story, which is life, right? I mean, that's literally just people's lives. Um like I said, you've lived in several worlds fiction, theater. You were in theater, you were an actor, you're a writer, uh, copywriting, coaching, ghostwriting. Do you at any point in time through all that, did you ever struggle trying to figure out did you ever feel like you had to pick one of those identities to be quote unquote accessible?

SPEAKER_02

One identity, no, because I always saw my myself as pursuing dual tracks ever since I got out of college. Because one of the things I learned real early on, um, I actually got to meet an author that I really respect named Peter S. Beagle. And he uh he was a very successful fantasy author, and one of his most famous books is The Last Unicorn, which got turned into a um uh movie, a you know, animated movie back in the 70s. And I met him at a screening for the movie, and my girlfriend at the time was like, Oh, this is my boyfriend Sean, he wants to be a writer too, just like you. And I'll never forget what he said because he just looked at me and said, You can make a killing in this industry, but you can make a living. And he was specifically talking about fiction, right? Like writing novels and fantasy like he does. And that it wasn't the first time that it occurred to me, but it was sort of a perfect crystallization of a lot of things I'd noticed over the course of my life because um I, you know, obviously I studied creative writing in college, I got to meet people in the industry, I got to, you know, I've studied people's careers so far. And what I noticed is that it's it's extremely volatile to try to base your, and even in the best of times, right? Like, I mean, seeing right now with Hollywood, like even well-established names are are struggling right now behind the scenes. And my my sort of central thesis around that is creative work is uh is always going to have that certain amount of volatility to it because it's driven by taste. And taste is uh it's you know both your taste and the taste of the audience, and taste is constantly evolving. It's not measurable and predictable in the same way that a lot of business can be. And so from a very, you know, basically from like my early 20s onwards, I decided like, all right, I'm gonna structure my life so that I have something that's a little bit more solid and stable, um, so that I can be creative in the way I want to be and not have to pin down what I'm doing um under you know commercial pressure. And it's not to say that I don't ever I don't have any commercial admissions for my fiction, I do, but I I I knew I would be prematurely boxing myself in if I if I said like I had this has to be the thing that puts food on my table, which is a trap I think a lot of young creators fall into, is that that's how you end up um saying saying yes to things you probably shouldn't, right? And yeah, taking gigs, taking jobs that don't really suit you, but oh, but at least I'm in the industry, right? And so what I eventually stuff landed on for the commercial side of things was copywriting, like I mentioned. And that was what I discovered there is that actually a lot of the a lot of the core skills do transfer over quite a bit. And really the the common thread throughout all of it is storytelling. Like many of the best copywriters of all time were expert storytellers, and a lot of them actually study fiction, right? A lot of them I I I discovered like obsess over pulp novels and movies and all these things where a lot of what they end up bringing into their copywriting, they're taking inspiration from the world of fiction. So um, so for me, it's like, well, that I I've I've got that already, right? And it's already baked in. And now with um with the ghostwriting, like part of the pivot there was um, for one thing, just a matter of personal alignment, right? Like I wanted to get back to doing something that connected to like at the heart, right? Like that's why I call it the heart of your story is that um this these are the things that are near and dear to my heart. Like I think stories are sacred. And excuse me. Um, but by that same token, when I look at the landscape now of online business and you know, marketing and branding, with the rise of AI, the thing that there's basically this huge fork in the road where if you're going to even have a business five years from now, you either need to go all in on AI and automation and and and just have the most overwhelming amount of volume, right? Like you're basically competing against slot channels on YouTube or uh, you know, yeah, all the other places they show up. And it's like who can produce the most slot fastest? That's how you win that game. And look, if that's what you want to do, power to you. I can't stand the thought of doing that, right? Yeah, there's no humanity in that. No, and and so the the other fork in the road is that what was maybe a nice to have before is becoming table stakes, which is that it's not enough to simply be an expert at what you do, right? And to have a good track record of results. Like, yes, you need those things too. But if that's all you have, and uh the average consumer, even if better to go to the wind, they're still gonna go to a chatbot first, right? Or someone who's willing to, you know, sell them at at the very bottom of the price ladder because you know, through you know, supposedly through AI, right? Um and so the way you get people to invest in your genuine expertise is that they you need to become a character in their mind, where it's not just, oh, here's someone who's really knowledgeable about XYZ. It's wow, this person has lived out the dream I that I have. They've actually walked the road I want to walk. And I can tell that they that they're real and that they've actually done it because of. The specifics of their story. There's so much texture and nuance their story that even if you could fake it through AI, you it you it would take as much work to fake it as it is going do the real thing, right? So that's where having a personal brand, like even our definition of what a personal brand is, I think is is tightening right now. Like in some sense, that's always been true. Everything I just said. But the emphasis is shifting. Like that's now becoming the thing you have to put front and center, even beyond the sort of obvious like status symbols of like, look how much money I have and look at my right Lambo and whatever. Like people are done to that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you need. Interesting. Are you finding with the rise of AI in terms of not even just copywriting, but also your creative writing? Do you think it's I mean, and do you find yourself constantly kind of checking the rearview mirror and be like, oh my god, okay. Now they're catching up to this. Now, you know, it's because it it is, it's overwhelming at some points.

SPEAKER_02

I did for a little, but the thing that changed my mind was I started using the tools myself. And I think this is this is a you know, especially back then, because I I sort of like watched that wave coming. I I always told people, you know, those other copy students I mentioned earlier, I would tell them, if you really are afraid of AI replacing you, see if you can replace yourself with AI. Like go pop open ChatGPT or Claude or whatever, it doesn't really matter which one. Yeah. And see how far you can get in having the machine do what you do. Because first off, you're gonna realize how big a leap that is, and how, and and like I said, at a certain point, it's as much work to train the bot as it is to just do the thing yourself. Yeah. But also you'll see how, and this is exactly what I discovered, is that at some point it shifted from let me try to replace myself to how can this speed me up? And that actually I found really useful. And and and that's the thing. I use AI to this day. Like, I don't have AI right for me, but I do use it for organizing my thoughts and keeping track of things. And in a sense, having a kind of a lot of people like you using either like the second brain. I I I take issue with that only in the sense that it implies consciousness, and AI is not conscious, and I think it's important to remember that. But in terms of having a an easily accessible repository of my past thoughts and ideas, that isn't that is biased, but it's biased in different ways than I am, right? Like there are built-in biases to AI that are, you know, we can talk about it a bit about. But like case in point, I this is a really interesting example from just recently. I was putting together a talk for a summit, and it it brought in this because I was like, you're brainstorming like what I want to include, and it brought in this nugget from something I'd written months ago for a completely different brew. And I hadn't, I had to like just kind of filed that away as like, like, oh yeah, like that, you know, not really doing anything with that client anymore. Like, I don't, you know, I wasn't even thinking about stuff. Right, done, move on. But it brought that piece back, and I didn't even recognize it at first. I had to ask, like, wait, where did you find that? Because it does kind of sound like me, but I don't even remember writing it. And it's like, oh, it's from this. I'm like, it actually remembered my memories and and reused them in a way that I wouldn't have. So that's interesting. Yeah, that is very interesting. And that's uh, you see how there's a totally different ball game than like, can you write an email for me, right? Like, who cares? Like, yeah, again, unless the only thing which I'm not, I don't want to build a business that relies only on volume because that um I let me let me cheat that a little bit. I do think speed of writing is incredibly important, and I've always prioritized being a fast writer, even before AI, and still am I very fast even without AI. But that's because I I look at speed as a forcing function for quality. And so at the end of the day, my ultimate priority is still quality.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But you lose that quality if you're letting the machine take up 80% of the process.

SPEAKER_00

Like it's still if you have them started for you, and then you get in there and tweak it or whatever. You know, some people have them write the whole thing out and then tweak it or Yeah, and try to make it sound like them.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Which is another huge lesson I learned. I mean, one of the things, um I so uh I've for uh about three years, I worked with a screenwriting coach who worked on four generations of Star Trek. Um really sharp dude. Same as Art Holcomb. I'm glad you brought that up because I'm definitely gonna bring that up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um and I learned so much from him. I mean, dude, I mean, I I still refer back to him constantly because he was such a huge uh influence on me. And one of the biggest things he taught me is that when it comes to writing fiction, although I think this applies just as well to copy, is part of your job is to evaluate the idea of what you're going to write before you write a word of it. Because if you have, like let's say it's a six out of ten idea, you could really scrape and sweat and bleed and polish to get it to a seven. Or you can find an idea that's a nine. And even if you just do an okay job with that, it's it's already a nine. And if you really sweat and bleed and polish it, you can get it to a ten. And that's the thought process you need to adopt, especially as you know, over the course of your career is like and and and this is I think the one of the huge hidden dangers of AI is that AI is really convinced, good at convincing you, and and AI companies have a vested interest in convincing you that a six out of ten is good enough because you can get a lot of it really quickly. But if but a six out of ten is forgettable, it's worse than that's actually more dangerous than doing a two out of ten. Because a two out of ten could at least be memorable, right?

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Nobody remembers a six out of ten. I care about being and and like if you want to have a career five years from now, you have to be memorable. There's simply no other at this point, there's no other way. Right? Why else would someone choose you over the sea of your competitors?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Fascinating. I um I have an I have a Patreon where I write horror stories on short horror stories. And there was one time where I was running through Chat GPT, and I was like, what is a good segue for this part? I can't like just I'm stuck. Throw me some examples, whatever. And it actually ended up writing a story with it, like completely misunderstood me and wrote the story. And I remember reading it and being like, oh my God, this is it. You are pulling things out, like you're throwing like so much stuff in here that makes no sense, like has nothing to do with the fabric of my story. Like you could, I was reading it and just kind of getting grossed out, and it was like how shallow and hollow it was. And there was like literally just like you said, slop. It was just these words and statements and action scenes that made absolutely no sense. And like, yeah, it was like oh my god, like it was just upsetting. And it was, you know, took it 15 seconds to write nine pages of this stuff, and it was just m mind-numbing how quick it was, and also just how awful it was, how terrible it was. And you're right, it was like it wasn't like it wasn't a two out of ten, like it was just like forgettable.

SPEAKER_02

There's nothing and case in point, right? You have the good taste to recognize, uh, this is like even if it sounds similar on the surface, it's not there, right? Like you can feel what's what's missing underneath. And the slot uh here's the thing about slot merchants is that and and and for a certain segment of the audience segment of the audience, they are correct in the sense that there are people that genuinely have no taste at all, and are you know their attention demands are short enough that they'll just kind of consume anything.

SPEAKER_00

Was it out? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Right, yeah. But like and actually I horror is a perfect example of this. Because the funny interesting thing about horror, and this is another lesson from the world of screenwriting, is that horror is actually one of the best genres for breaking into the industry from the outside, right? Like if you don't have money, if you don't have connections, if you don't have you know XYZ to you know do a more prestigious quote-unquote project, horror is one of those genres where it is it it does have a lower barrier to entry in the sense that it's easy to make competent horror. And pretty pretty much across the board, right? Whether you're talking about movies, video games, books, same, same is true across all medium.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, all medium. That's a really good point.

SPEAKER_02

But if you can establish a unique point of view, you can very easily build a following and eventually pivot that following into, hey, now I want to do sci-fi or fantasy or you know, whatever other genre you want to do.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_02

Maybe even like, you know, have kind of transitional uh fossils between the uh you know from horror to whatever else you're doing. But I mean that that's a playbook that so many people I mean, Jordan Peel is one of the best examples of this, right? Like, um, and so that I think is a perfect example of how having and developing taste is really where the power lies. And sure, like it's a you know, a lower barrier entry, like take that for what it is. Like, you know, I it's like one of my favorite um uh marketing experts in the the video indie gaming space says, like, just make a horror game. Like, find a really simple concept you can do at a weekend, and don't worry about making something of great quality, and it would do it, which I largely agree with, but still find the thing that makes yours unique, right? And sit and take that extra moment to think through the premise and think, is this a premise that is so stupidly interesting that someone's gonna stop scrolling on Steam or itch. Whoa, I have to play that, right? Even if it's bad, I have to play it. Same for movies, right? Ooh, that sounds terrible. Let's go. Right, right. This is the whole this is be horror. Be horror is like this in a nutshell.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, that's kind of what you just said. Like, even a two out of a ten will be remembered, you know what I mean? That's still an enjoyable thing. Like something's so bad it's enjoyable.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But there's still people there making it, you know.

SPEAKER_02

And it's the chance, right? Like whatever else this person is doing, there's some there's that that X factor that they bring that I can only get from them.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Which in my mind is the goal of any creative career. Because at the end of the day, and again, it's the thing the kind of thing that will it is increasingly becoming the only thing that matters. Because if it's trivial to produce something that looks mostly like what you're doing, then it's everything that's unspoken or below the surface that actually separates you in the in the eyes of your fans and makes them pull their f pull their friends aside and say, Hey, forget yeah, like what I know you like horror. Forget all those guys. You have to read Daniel instead.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Interesting. That's a really good point. Um, so you've been writing a long time, really. I mean what age do you think you started writing at?

SPEAKER_02

Twelve. And I can I can tell you when it happened. It was uh um I was uh it was in my music class in sixth grade, and we had our music teacher who uh you know, he only came in like once a month or so, but he one time he came in and was like, hey, I want you guys to all write short stories instead of music. That'll be our our experiment. And I went and wrote a short story about uh destiny, this angelic figure coming and visiting this very shy, awkward young boy, guess who that was, and telling him he'll go on to do great things. And when I turned that story into class, the music teacher was so moved. And bear in mind, this is a guy in his like late 30s, early 40s. He was so moved by my story that he read it aloud for the whole class. Wow. And it wasn't just that he chose to read aloud, it's that I could see how moved he was while he was reading it. That really like unlocked something for me. It's like, wow, if I'm a 12-year-old and I can move an adult with my words to that level.

SPEAKER_00

That's it. That's incredible, man. Yeah. Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I wish I had a story like that. My music teacher, I I hit her keys one time to drive home. That was my claim to fame music class. So yours is much more heartwarming. I love that. Um, that's really cool though. Yeah, so you just got that feeling and then you stuck with it and kept writing. Yeah. Um so let's talk about your book. Yeah. Jump into that. I like that you know, the description of the book that that you sent me spoke to me. I I really like these are things that I think mean a lot to me, and I also like to speak about as well. But um, you know, the book becomes a meditation on legacy, fatherhood, vocation, and the responsibility of creation itself. Uh, your journey moves from survival mode to a clear sense of purpose, helping the builders of civilization preserve their stories in books that can outlive them. Um, it's also a very deeply personal memoir. So, uh, what moved you to start this book? What moved you to decide I'm gonna write this?

SPEAKER_02

It's so funny. I uh I was working with a hybrid publisher who essentially he, you know, he had a pipeline of clients that wanted books. I stepped in as a ghostwriter and then I would hand them back to to them to do the publishing piece. And at one point he turned around and said, like, you know, where's your book? Right? Like people are people are gonna wonder, like, if this guy's such a great ghostwriter, where's his book? I'm like, well, I guess I should write one. Which is funny because like this this will be my first book under my own name. Like, um, I've written a lot of short fiction, gone that published, obviously I've done all things, but really I this this will be my first time publishing a book. And so I I sat down and I was like, okay, what do I write about, right? Like what what what sort of book do I write? And yeah, the funny thing is, I I had already built a tool. Speaking of AI, I'd built a custom GVT designed to help people figure out what book should I write. And it's trained on not it's not just like you know, generic, like what kind of book does it? It's trained on my philosophy, right? Like, and I test, I ran a bunch of my friends through it to see and like got to read, I read through all of their chats word for word to see like, is it asking the right questions? Is it leading people the right way? And like point by point, every single test I ran, I was like, yeah, like maybe maybe not the exact words I would say, but that's the thought process, right? Like guiding people the right way. And so then I was like, I guess I should try eating my own cooking here. Let me run myself through the tool and see what I get. And that's when it started pushing me in the direction of the story about my mom and everything that went down there. And it was the kind of thing I think, you know, on some of it, I always knew I wanted to write about it while it was happening. I just didn't know when. I didn't know like what format. And I certainly would not have guessed that that was the way to go for my first nonfiction book. Like I I honestly, like, if if not for that going through that session, I probably would have jumped to the same conclusion a lot of first-time authors do, where it's like, well, it's got to be something more tactical and business focused, and like here's how to achieve XYZ.

SPEAKER_00

Something to get your name out there first before you open up and yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Right. But by that same token, the same thing I always tell my clients is that the the goal of the first book is to establish yourself as a character in the in the minds of the market, right? Like I was talking about earlier. And what I realized is that this story will do that better than anything else that I have. Like this is truly like as as difficult as it is to talk about these events, that this made me who I am. Right. And these are like all of my core values put in the ultimate test. And so if I can show that story, and anyone who reads that and gets it, like, of course we should work together. Like, yeah. And if they want to have that same quality in their work, because it's one, like, even with with nonfiction books, there's a lot of ghostwriters and and there are plenty of people that will say, like, oh, look, I here's an AI that you can prompt and it'll spit out a book in you know, 30 minutes. That's not what I do. Like, I go deep with you and I uncover the the story that only you can tell. And that's exactly what I did to myself. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00

It speaks to the awesome dead again. Right. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. And uh yeah, I mean, we can dive into more about the like what actually is in the book. But yeah, as far as the like why I chose to do the book that way, that's why, is that I Yeah, and there were there were kind of layers to it, but but I ultimately realized like this is actually the ultimate example of what I of of where I want to lead my clients, like what I'm asking of them. It's only fair that I've done the same myself.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's interesting. That's I always I was a chef many, many years, and that's kind of how I looked at it as well. It's like, I'm not gonna ask you to go clean the bathrooms or or go, you know, do this task if I can't even do it myself, you know what I mean? If I don't even know how to do it, so I need to put myself through this first. Um, I think that goes a long way, you know. Um and your book, man, it's you're you talk about vulnerable. You're you're being vulnerable, you're putting yourself out there. Um is it cool if we get into the specifics of the book? Your book begins with uh finding your mother on the brink of death. How did that moment kind of alter the trajectory of of your life, of your inner life, of what you were doing?

SPEAKER_02

Oh man. I mean, um that's literally chapter one is about that. But um it was so so to give a little more context, this was um on Christmas Day of 2018, and um my sister and I had been staying in my dad's place for Christmas Eve, and then um, you know, that morning we went to go have Christmas with her during the day. Um and we we found her just essentially near catatonic, right? Like she like unable to stand up. Um she was conscious, but she was basically like her memory would loop every 15 minutes, so we have to like re-explain what was going on. And um, and she was like bone frail. And what we ultimately pieced together uh once we got her to the hospital was that she had spent potentially days sitting in the same chair, not eating, not drinking anything. And the way she ended up in that position is that she was an alcoholic. And it was, uh, and this is actually a very common thing. A lot of people don't know this, but um, when some especially if it's someone who is a, excuse me, a relatively high functioning alcoholic um later in life, a lot of times they will they'll get to the point where they're so isolated and you know, broken off from routine that they'll start sitting around and just and just drinking all day, but eventually they're not even drinking anymore. Like by the time we got there to the hospital, there wasn't any alcohol in her system because there wasn't anything in her system. And that realized, like, if if we had not gone there that day, like if we hadn't come to visit, and we really were kind of tempted not to, because things were already difficult at that point, um she may not have made it another day.

SPEAKER_01

Wow.

SPEAKER_02

And you know, that was as soon as I I realized that, you know, it was that's really up against. And the sort of final moment of that chapter is you know, there's a moment where it's all of us there around the hospital bed, my me, my little sister, my aunt, who is my mom's sister, and uh and my now wife, um and you're dating at the time. And it it's it just became obvious, like somebody has to take the lead here. Somebody has to take point and be the the the sort of central pillar of coordinating everything that has to happen next.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And I was like, well, there's no way I'm gonna let it be my little sister because she's five and a half years younger than me. She's, you know, at that point just starting out in life.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It wasn't fair to my aunt because she had just gone through that with their mom, as far as, you know, caring through the enough for like literally that year, earlier that same year, um, their mom had passed. Um, not from alcoholism, but just from general old age in her case. And uh, and so it was like, well, then it's gotta be me. And I knew that as soon as I made that call, like that was gonna dramatically alter my plans. Because at that point, I had already been planning, you know, I was still working in-house as a copywriter, and I was planning to go freelance so that I'd have a lot more time for creative projects and doing other things on the side, and also I'd be able to make more money as a copywriter, because like there's a cap on how much you can make in house. But I had to put that off for another year because then all of 2019 was just getting that situation stable and also marrying my wife and trying to to Like uh it was this constant battle between like how do I keep my mom stable and give her a a fighting chance, but also not lose my life in the process. Like I I can't give everything to her. I have to keep progressing and building the life I want to live, because if I don't if I do I if I don't do that, then I I can't help her anymore.

SPEAKER_00

Like that was such a hard lesson that that's a tough line to walk for sure.

SPEAKER_02

And you know, like how do I how do I do all this and stay sane? Like, how do I not just become a a crying puddle in the corner of the room, which was tempting constantly. I mean, I was the constant battle. Uh but you know, I you know, the the thing that people kept telling me at the time, and and it really took me sitting down and writing the book to really believe them was that they saw me being incredibly strong throughout all this, and they were like, no, you like you were our rock, like you're the one that got us through this. And at the time, it just felt like every day was treading water, every day was just a a fight to the death that I barely survived. Wow. And so that I think is one of the biggest things. I mean, for I know you talk a lot about people with um, you know, difficult stories. And for anyone in the audience listening to this, if you've thought about like writing your story out, I'll I I'll tell you from experience, one of the biggest transformational elements of that is it's the ultimate chance to recognize how strong you really were in a way that's really I I I couldn't do it if it was just me sitting and staring in the mirror, right? I needed to sit and put it in a story and and apply the tools of my craft to myself to finally recognize how strong I was in the middle of all this.

SPEAKER_00

Man. You know, it's interesting because you say, you know, every day you wake up and it was it was a battle. It was, you know, a fight. You said you touch on alcoholism in the book, you talk touch on alcoholism grief, um, but you also touch on professional delusionment, which I found very interesting. Um during that stretch, what did survival mode look like, you know, for you day to day? Were you just trying to just kind of box in exactly what had to be done that day and then move on to something else? And like, you know, how did you how did you get through it?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so I mean, a lot of especially for 2019, there's so many, I mean, their whole the the whole first like half of the book is just getting through that first year because yeah, um, you know, first we had to get her into first we tried putting her in a senior living center and having them like restrict her access to alcohol to deal with that at all. Um, but also her memory was still pretty bad. So eventually she ended up going into a a uh um uh a memory care facility for people with advanced dementia. And so she's literally sitting in the same facility as people who um are you know, in some cases are non-verbal um or who have like you know, none of them can live independently, right? Like most people in that facility are there for the rest of their lives.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_02

But she was actually able to make such a strong recovery there that she was able to come out and then go into rehab to make sure she's fully stabilized and then eventually. Yeah, and she made it to the wedding, right? Like that was one of the biggest wins of that year. And so there were there there were stretches like that where there's just such a flurry of activity and so many different things I have to do. That yeah, like you said, it was just like wake up, okay, what which fire am I putting out today, right? Like, okay, go do that, do that, do that. Where it actually was even more difficult was the moments of seeming calm where after living in that mode for so long, I I was uh the the technical term is like hyper-vigilance. I was living in massive hypervisilance where like I'm literally just every second waiting for the next fire to erupt.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And that is a very difficult if that it's so hard to when you're in that frame of mind, it is basically impossible to plan for the future and make real effort towards your long-term goals because it doesn't feel real, it doesn't feel safe. It's like if I if I let my guard down for a second, then I'm gonna get like I can't dedicate the time and focus to this thing because then I'm gonna get pulled away. And um, as time went on, you know, you know, eventually I did go freelance and and wound up, you know, working with um a bunch of different clients. But there's another stretch that I write about in the book where I I knew that the the copywriting had become something I wasn't aligned with, right? And that had that had to do with, you know, the the kind of stuff I was selling um and the kind of clients I was working with. And it was not like I wasn't doing anything like illegal or anything or anything like that, but I just knew that it wasn't it wasn't something I'd be proud to put my name on if it was my name of the product, right? And that became so hard to break out of because I was in that survival mode and because it was like, okay, to make that switch to do something more aligned is gonna be a huge leap and it's gonna take a lot out of me. And I don't know if I can do that when I'm again waiting for the next fire to erupt or in the middle of cleaning up some some other mess. Um, and then when my mom finally passed, there was just such grief, right? Like there was such, I I, you know, I mean, for about a year or two or two, I was the best way I can describe it is that I I felt like I was in limbo. Like nothing felt real. Or not nothing, right? But it was like there was such a dense fog of um fusion. And I I'm very lucky that like I had my wife and she was this incredible support, and like our relationship was solid. Like that I was one of the few lights that I had, but everything else just felt like such a blur. Like it was hard to really again, it was so hard to think long term. Like, how can I focus? And um, and that's something too, I think is you know, one of the things I really hope that I can I can do with this book is if somebody's in that zone right now, is for one to just meet them there and say, you're not crazy. Like, if it feels impossible to imagine a future right now, I get it. I get it. And I'm not gonna sit here, which I think a lot of the personal development space has a bad habit of you know directly or indirectly shaming people when it's like, oh, well, where's where's your big hairy audacious goal, right? Like, where are you where's your big plan for the future? It's like, bro, some people are not even, they can't even imagine two days from now. And you're asking them to imagine a plan. Yeah. Right. But that's not to say that those people can't make progress too, and that they can't achieve their wildest dreams. But we have to respect the stages in the process between. Because certainly I was not ready for any it when I was in the middle of that, there was no way you could have gotten me to sit down and like make a five-year plan or whatever. Like, dude, I can't right now.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And actually the things I found most helpful were uh the the people that showed me how to confront that pain dead on. Um, like one of the one of the big it's funny. This is a chapter I added to the book after finishing the full draft because it's like, which by the way, this is another thing you learn is like um there are things you will learn about the book only after you have a first draft done, which again, speed of writing, really important. And I had there's this whole story I didn't even put in the first draft because I somehow forgot or didn't realize how important it was. But then after finishing the book and and you know, taking it to an editor and starting to have these kind of conversations around it, I realized, oh my God, this story is like sent like one of the core blocks here. Because I went to a um a men's retreat in Idaho where they had us like all up in a cabin, um, you know, doing breath work together and having these like deep um uh essentially like role play sessions where each guy got to bring something he's struggling with, and we'd act out a scene to sort of tackle that idea. And in my little scene, I talked about, you know, my mom was falling down into the void, and like I was trying to like keep my other family members out of it and keep myself out of it. And ultimately the facilitator was like, Well, what if you did go into the void? And so we literally had someone sitting on the ground playing the void, and I just sat and I just stared him in the eye. And I just all of a sudden had this moment of incredible calm. And I thought like like this cool, refreshing air settle over my skin, and it was like, what was I so afraid of in the void? Like for me, the void became the space of power. Like my mom slipped into the void because she because she was fighting it, because she couldn't accept it for what it was. When I was able to confront it honestly, I discovered that I mean the the void is the source of life. That's where all creativity comes from. And so I don't need to fear it. If anything, like I should make it my own. I should be friends with it. And that was something that shifted everything because instead of running men out, and like this was, you know, and they're this trust me, that was not an overnight thing, right? I still had to remind myself, I had to remind myself to put the story in the book. But when it's when it's true, when I'm truly in my my darkest moments, I just remind myself that pain is trying to teach me something.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It's not here to crush me or destroy me. It's like, no, just go and sit with it and let it tell you what it needs to tell you. See what you can discover there. And without fail, when I'm able to do that, I mean, large I I wrote whole chapters of the book by going to the void where I'm be at a point where like I don't even forget about the book. I don't even know what I'm supposed to do today because I'm so overwhelmed with all these other problems. And by just sitting and letting the void talk to me, I was like, there's a whole chapter, boom, done.

SPEAKER_00

Wow.

SPEAKER_02

Type it up in like 30 minutes. And that's something too, I think is I the when we first connected, I was I was so um, I felt such a kinship right away. And I and I think I'm I love what you're doing here because there is so much power to be found in our darkest moments, and it comes down to how we approach them and how we look at them.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And I it it's there's there's it goes way beyond just survival. It's like there's the power to transform in moments like these. And that looks so different from you know, sitting and wishing and dreaming for some abstract thing. It's like, no, there's something here for you right now when things feel uh the darkest.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

That's the thing I want people to know.

SPEAKER_00

It's beautiful. Yeah, it's so true. And the hardest part too is you know, when you see the void, like you said, and you even touched on not numbing yourself out. I mean, I certainly did. My mother passed away, and I immediately numbed myself up for a very long time. The uncomfortable part is becoming radically honest with what you're feeling, what you're seeing. And like you said, looking at that void. Uh what's interesting too is everybody has a different path to that void. Everybody has a different journey to that. You know? So it's fascinating. Let's talk about when's your book coming out? You have a date yet?

SPEAKER_02

Not yet. Can you finish? Um, probably potentially later this year. Um, I was initially looking to try to do it around my birthday in October, but um, I think that might be a little aggressive at this point, but we'll see. Um you'll see me to talk about it a lot more.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um, what's life looking like for you right now? How are things? You're a father now, right? Yourself?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Um, got a two-year-old at home. Uh nice. And that's okay. I mean, I'll talk about that in the book too. Like, you know, him being born. Um, the enormous identity shift that comes with that. But uh yeah, he's he's doing great. He's um he's in preschool now. Um yeah, it's uh, you know, one of the biggest things I focus on now is it's just making sure I'm making time for him every day. And like like our favorite way to do that is like, you know, I always make sure to say goodbye to him before he goes out to preschool in the morning. But then in the evenings, like I'll I'll wrap up at work and then we go for a walk out to you know, basically just around the neighborhood. And and like we can be out there for like an hour, 90 minutes, even two hours some days. And I I really, you know, some days I'm still carrying, you know, life stress and business stress with me, but most days I'm I'm just there with him, and like I I use that to ground myself and be like, this is the thing that will matter to him more than anything, is dad was there and dad's with him, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Hell yeah, man. All right, working title. So we're gonna get a title eventually. Where can people find you out there if they're interested in your services, your copywriting services, or just reading your work? Um, you know, I can list a bunch of stuff in the episode description itself as well. But it's probably the ones to kind of, you know, learn more about you and read some of your work in the head too.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so the easiest way to find me is on Facebook and LinkedIn, um, which we'll have the links for those under here. And um and also that tool I mentioned, um, you can use it yourself.

SPEAKER_00

Uh I yeah, that's really cool.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Um, so we'll have a link to that uh as well. It's called the Book Clarity Engine, um, and there'll be a link for with the instructions for how to use it and get access. Incredible. And uh yeah, those are those are the main things.

SPEAKER_00

You got a lot going on here, Sean.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Look at you. Growing up so fast. So, real quick, what is I have one more question for you. To you, when you think about the phrase braving the bright side, what do you think braving the bright side means to you?

SPEAKER_02

Ah, I'm so glad you asked. Because I the way I read it was braving the bright side in the sense that it's actually scarier to be on the bright side than it is to be in the darkness.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Especially if you've been there a while, right? And huge theme of my book too, right? Is like learning to come out of that fog, live life again and and actually feel alive. Um in some ways it was harder and scarier than living in crisis mode and living in survival mode. And so what I the way I read that is it does, it's it takes bravery. It takes bravery to fully live and to let yourself feel joy and to allow the good things in life to and to, and even to believe that it's out there still, right? When you're when you're in the thick of it. And so that's why I love the title. I think it's a fantastic title, and I'm so glad you're doing the show because um that's such a huge final conversation is how do you how do you how do you brave the bright side? It's one thing to brave the dark side. I actually think a lot of that comes down to instincts. You know, we're yeah, we're hearty we're a hardy species. We like to stay alive. But when it comes to actually living your life, how do you brave that?

SPEAKER_00

Living it honestly and authentically, like you said. Um, Sean, this has been great, man. I really uh I really appreciate you coming by and telling your story and opening up about everything. And uh like I said, you wear a lot of hats and they're all Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um, we'll keep us posted about the book. Um, like I said, keep in touch, and then once that book becomes available or you have a release date and you're looking for any kind of pre-release signups, send it my way. Um I'll make sure to blast it everywhere.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and then yeah, then I'll love a copy of your book, and then I'll give you a copy of my book when it comes out. Yeah, absolutely. Wow. Yeah. All right, Sean. Well, listen, thanks for stopping by the bright side today, man. I really appreciate your time. Thank you, Daniel. This has been awesome. Yeah, take care, buddy. One of the things that I really loved the most about this conversation is that it reminds us that um creativity isn't just about I don't know, it's just it's not just about making things, you know. I think when when we think about being creative, you already have that kind of thought in your brain about what exactly that looks like, what that means, right? Um but there's an interesting other avenue to creativity that is kind of tied um towards grief. So, you know, sometimes sometimes it's tied towards darkness, sometimes it's tied towards the really rough spikes spots in life, you know. It's kind of creativity, a lot of creativity out there comes from how we make sense of pain, you know? It's how we turn, you know, difficult chapters into something meaningful. I know that's worked for me personally as well. I think a lot of us spend our lives trying to avoid, you know, the uncomfortable parts of our story. You know, we try to outrun them, outwork them, you know, numb them with whatever we can go to grubby little fingers on, whether it be alcohol, drugs, gambling, I don't know, whatever shit's out there that you can conduct distract yourself with. But I don't know, as as Sean so beautifully shared today, that there is often wisdom waiting for us in those really dark places. The tough part is you have to be willing to sit with it long enough and be uncomfortable with it. Whether you're carrying grief, navigating a difficult time in your life, raising a family, building something new, or simply trying to figure out who you are becoming. I hope today's conversation reminds you that, well, your story is important, your story matters. Your experiences matter. And sometimes the very thing that you're struggling through today often becomes the thing that helps someone else tomorrow. If you'd like to connect with Sean, learn more about his work, check out his book, or just follow along with his upcoming adventures, you'll find all of his information in the episode description. And before we go, if today's conversation stirred something in you, if you're standing at crossroads or feeling stuck or simply looking for a little more clarity about what is next in this crazy thing we call life. I've opened up five spots for something I'm calling the reset button. Like I said before, it's a simple 20-minute conversation. No pressure, no obligation, no pitching, just a chance to slow down, take stock of where you are, and try to figure out what your next step might be. If that sounds helpful to you at all, you'll find the calendar link in the episode description. Click that, pick a time for you and I connect, and we'll just take it from there. And before we head out, if you'd like to keep the conversation going, you can find BravingTheBrightside on Instagram at braving underscore the bright side and on TikTok at BravingTheBrightside. If you have a story to share or would like to be a guest on the show or any questions, comments, or inquiries, you can always reach me at braving the bright side at gmail.com. Thanks for spending a little time on the bright side with me today. As always, keep braving it. One step, one sunrise, one honest conversation, and yes, one chapter at a time. I'll see you next time.

Head Shot

Daniel Bradley

Host