Entrusting The Faith
Entrusting The Faith
Why Men Disengage from Church - David Murrow
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Key Takeaways
1. Church has long been perceived as “unmanly” (00:01:29)
For centuries, attending church signaled a step away from traditional markers of masculinity, creating a deep-rooted gender gap that still influences men today.
2. Emotionalism unintentionally pushes men away (00:04:51)
When spiritual maturity is measured by visible emotion, many men feel like they can’t compete—leading to discomfort, disengagement, or withdrawal.
3. Men are quietly disengaging during worship (00:06:04)
Most men aren’t actively participating—they’re standing silently, enduring services that don’t connect with how they’re wired.
4. Faith has been framed with predominantly “feminine-coded” values (00:08:22)
The church often emphasizes relational and emotional traits while underrepresenting strength, purpose, and achievement—values many men resonate with.
5. Churches train passivity instead of action (00:13:42)
The modern church experience often centers on sitting and consuming, rather than engaging men in active, embodied discipleship.
6. Language and worship style can create disconnect (00:18:01)
Romanticized language in worship songs can feel unnatural to men, making it harder for them to genuinely engage.
7. Men need embodied, active discipleship (00:29:30)
Transformation happens when men do, not just hear—through challenge, movement, and shared experience, not just teaching.
8. The future of discipleship is continuous, not weekly (00:33:50)
Reaching men today requires ongoing engagement—meeting them where they already are with consistent, practical content throughout the week.
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Unknown
Welcome to the entrusting the Faith podcast. I'm your host, Eric Rutherford, and today I am thrilled because I have with me David Morrow.
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Unknown
He has the bestselling book of all time about men and the church Why men hate going to Church.
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He's helped thousands of churches become more welcoming and engaging to men and boys, and he is currently working on a sequel, Why Men Suddenly Love Going to Church.
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Unknown
So David's been interviewed by the New York Times, NBC Nightly News, Moody Radio Networks, and many others. He's been interviewed on focus on the family, Family Life Today and Doctor James Dobson's Family Institute. And David's going to tell us why. For hundreds of years, men considered church unmanly, why they suddenly see it as manly and now give us advice on how a local church can share men's hearts.
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Unknown
David, welcome to the show.
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Unknown
Well, that's a tall order, so I but I will I'll do my best to answer those questions. Oh, I, I have no doubt. I have no doubt. And,
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Unknown
I have to say, after, you know,
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read the book, it,
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it and there were so many
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things in the book when I read it.
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Unknown
And so that's why I was thrilled to be able to, to just kind of go through that with you today and even more to talk about your new book that's coming up. Well, I'm in love.
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Unknown
Going to church.
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Unknown
And so, yeah, well, let me set the table for us here.
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Unknown
So when I wrote Why Men Who Go to Church in 2005,
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I was describing a gender gap that goes back 700 years.
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There have always been more women than men in church.
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And so church was always kind of a feminine coded thing. If you went to church, you were less manly than the man who didn't go to church.
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You think about it. How do men signal their manhood?
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They fight
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the curse. They drink. They sleep around. They kill people.
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They commit crimes. They stay up all night drinking. They.
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These manly behaviors were off limits for Christian men.
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So the first thing you got to do when you become a Christian is you got to put away all those men, all those manly behaviors,
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and you've got to embrace a set of behaviors that a lot of guys would think are feminine.
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You've got to become sensitive, caring, loving.
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You've got to put away all those,
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you can't curse anymore.
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You can't sleep around anymore. I mean, how are you going to prove your manhood?
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Unknown
And so that was kind of the world that I wrote that book into,
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Unknown
20 years ago. And so I gave a lot of advice in that book about how churches can do subtle things to turn the knob a little bit more toward masculine without going all the way to macho,
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Unknown
because that's the thing.
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Men appreciate men, and women appreciate healthy, life giving masculinity.
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What they don't appreciate is mojo posturing.
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Unknown
So,
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Unknown
that was sort of the basic premise of the book, and it's just gone crazy. It's, you know, it's in 12 different languages. I get letters from seminarians all the time.
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Pastors sit with them, and it's just become a very helpful book, especially with the
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return of men that we're seeing right now,
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because men are looking for guidance.
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Pastors are looking for guidance. What do I do with these guys? And so that's why I feel like I need to write a new book that'll be coming out around Christmas time of 2026.
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Unknown
That's awesome. And it's true. It's true. It's
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Unknown
you talk about this whole idea of of church behavior being unmanly and masculine.
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Unknown
What what makes men,
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Unknown
I say, ambivalent about church, but it's that I think, at best ambivalent.
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Oftentimes.
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Unknown
Well, yeah, we can dive into some of those behaviors, like when you go into church,
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for the last
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couple hundred years,
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you might have to hold hands with your neighbor.
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You might have to sing love songs to a man named Jesus.
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Unknown
It's gotten really kind of bad with the praise and worship movement.
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There's definitely this.
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We judge people's faith by how emotional they become in church. You know. Oh, look at that, brother. He's crying. He's waving his hands. He's obviously loves the Lord the most.
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Unknown
So we kind of we kind of set up this expectation that the best Christian is the one who becomes the most emotional,
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or the one who is the most sensitive, the most caring.
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And, you know, those are those can be good things. I'm not anti emotion or anything,
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but when we set that up as the bar,
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women are always going to have an easier time doing those things than men.
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If you think about it,
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Unknown
hey, finish this sentence for me, Eric. Big boys
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don't cry. Don't cry. Every boy learns that when they're little, right?
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If a five year old boy skins his knee, he tries to hold the tears back.
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Girl doesn't. Right. She's. She can do it
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in church. The man who cries the most is the one who's believed to love the Lord the most.
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And so we kind of judge men by how emotional they become.
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And this is really becoming an issue as the church becomes more and more Pentecostal
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because emotionalism is a big part of the package.
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Unknown
And I don't think it's fair to men.
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Unknown
You know, I love the words. I read this book by a guy named Jesus
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Unknown
and he said, if you love me, you will become very emotional in church. If you love me, you will sway to the music. You know, he didn't say any of that. He said, if you love me, you will obey my commands.
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Unknown
He set the bar very high. We've set it very low. And I think that frustrates men over time, because they simply can't compete on the emotionalism scale. Like women can.
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Unknown
And I love that you brought the emotionalism up, because I know as a guy,
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Unknown
you know, it's it's hard to.
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Unknown
Well, it's hard to show emotion. It's definitely uncomfortable to show emotion around.
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Unknown
A lot of men like there are some men I feel more comfortable with it, but that's even there. It's not easy and I still feel uncomfortable about it.
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Unknown
And and yet it that is this progression that the church seems to have embraced is emotionalism.
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Unknown
And which is,
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which is brutal.
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Unknown
And again, let me be clear. I'm not against emotion.
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Unknown
If two guys are praying together and one guy, his marriage is falling apart and he begins to shed a tear, that's a good, solid thing, right? What I'm talking about is emotionalism,
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which is,
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in a lot of churches today, you're going to come in and they worship leader is just going to berate you for not raising your hands.
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Come on. Let's praise the Lord. Let's get those hands in the air. Haven't had.
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Unknown
You know, you're just going to go after you to make you
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do this big display of emotion. And here's what I'm seeing as part of my research for my book. I'm visiting a new church every weekend.
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Men are quiet, quitting worship.
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I have not found a church yet.
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And first of all, they're all the same.
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It's it's amazing. They're all the same. And,
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they,
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I
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have not found a church yet where even half the men sing.
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They they're just they're just standing there watching the band,
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enduring the songs, enduring the music. Now, there's always guys up front, you know, that
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got their hands in the air.
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But most of the guys have their hands in their pockets.
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Unknown
So the way we've defined worship, primarily in
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in emotional terms, really, I think men are getting sick of it.
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Unknown
I think Paul Paul really gave us a clear definition of worship is,
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he said present your bodies as living sacrifice. This is your true act of worship.
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And we've just redefined it as no.
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Your true act of worship is getting all emotional.
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And that's just a tough,
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a tough thing for men to do. Men pay a social price for that, that women don't.
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Unknown
It is. It's like, okay, I need to turn this on when I walk into a worship service. But
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it it immediately turns off the moment I go outside.
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Unknown
It's like I have to be two different people. There you go. Yeah. Good observation. It's it's rough.
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Unknown
one of the things that I found fascinating at the beginning of your book is you have this quiz with this chart that gives two sets of characteristics.
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Unknown
And you ask the reader, hey,
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what? Which one better characterizes Jesus and today's disciples and said, assess competence, power, efficiency, achievement, skills, proving oneself results, accomplishment, objects, goal orientation, self-sufficiency, success and competition. Set B
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says love, communication, beauty, relationships, support, helping, nurturing. Feeling. Sharing. Relating. Community. Loving. Cooperation.
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Personal expression.
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So those are my two sets.
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And then you ask which one better embodies Jesus as we in the church think is is correct.
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Unknown
And I love this quiz. I'd love for you to to elaborate on this where you know and what results you've seen.
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Unknown
Okay. Well, listeners
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here, which one do you think best characterizes the value of Jesus and his true followers? Now, I've given this quiz to hundreds of audiences over the last 20 years.
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Christians and non-Christians, men and women.
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Everyone always picks the second set.
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Everyone is much more comfortable assigning those values to Jesus than the first set.
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Unknown
And then I tell them where they come from. They're from chapter two of the book, men are from Mars, women are from Venus,
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and the first set of values are men's values, the Mars values. These are the values that are commonly found among men.
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The second set of values are the Venus values. Those are the values commonly found among women.
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And so the point of the quiz is we are much more comfortable assigning feminine values to our thing,
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Unknown
and we're not very comfortable thinking of our faith in terms of competence, power, achievement, efficiency, the things that men bring to the table.
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Unknown
And that was an ouch for me as I as I read it and then saw where you got the list from, it was like, oh yeah, we're doing a horrible job of of of of representing
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Christ well in the church. And like later in the book, you talk about this,
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it's this comparison of, of the Lion of Judah
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versus like the Lamb of God and, and just those two things and how we,
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we don't hold those together.
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Unknown
Well, would you elaborate on on that?
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Unknown
Yeah.
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Unknown
In fact, I wrote a follow on book about this called The Map The Way of All Great Men.
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And the theological or biblical
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case I'm making is in the first seven chapters of Matthew's Gospel. Jesus is all lamb.
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And then chapters eight through 25, he's all lion,
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and then 26 through 28 he's lamb again.
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And so
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Unknown
I've been teaching this. I teach this as men's retreats. And when I'm doing men's groups, I teach them this map demands. But you have to go lamb first, then lion, then lamb.
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Unknown
Now, in the church we tend to only present Jesus the lamb,
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Unknown
the suffering Savior, the kind, the gentle, the nurturing. And these things are true.
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He is those things.
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He came as a helpless baby. He submitted to baptism. He
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he didn't. He. He wept over Jerusalem. He welcomed children to his side. Those things are all true.
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But that's only part of who he was.
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Unknown
And I think over time, men get the message that you're supposed to be a lamb all the time. You're supposed to let people run you over.
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You're always supposed to, you know, do whatever your wife says. Keep her happy.
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Unknown
It's gotten into some really,
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bad theology. So,
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Unknown
I like teaching this framework. I teach men the first act in your faith is to become more lamb like. Then you've got to become a lion.
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And if you skip that lamb stage, you become an angry legalist.
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Unknown
If you just go straight to lion and you don't learn to softness. Gentleness is not the basis of your faith. You become the angry legalist.
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Unknown
And we see a lot of that matures today, especially in the in the very online men.
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Unknown
So,
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there's just a lot of work to do to help men understand how to balance the land and the lamb.
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Unknown
And we need to express that in the church, not just through our words, but through our actions as well, which actions we approve of.
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Unknown
It's true. And it is about it's not like one or the other, like both have to exist,
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Unknown
at the same time and coexist. And but I like that framework where you're talking about, yeah, we do have to humble ourselves.
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Unknown
We do submit when we come to faith in Christ, there is this
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softening and and repentant. But then there is the standing firm in your faith. Turn that.
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Unknown
Absolutely,
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never, never truly relinquishing
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Unknown
that the softness.
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Unknown
But it's there while it's tempered with with the firm. Yeah. I say it's foundational.
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Unknown
I use a lot of it in, in the map.
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Unknown
I use several metaphors. Like with a horse, for example, you break the horse, you humble the horse, and you work the horse. The horse has a journey. It starts with a journey of submission, then a journey of strength. And then when the horse is too old to work, you send about the stud. And that's his journey of sacrifice, where he pours himself into the next generation of horses.
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Unknown
So,
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Unknown
there's a lot of things in life that follow this three step pattern
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Unknown
and,
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Unknown
you know, some my book here, the map. It's a fun read. I wish you'd pick it up the map or the way of all great, man, because I think it will help you understand
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Unknown
when to be iron and when to be a lamb.
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Unknown
And it's not just Jesus, it's every great man of Scripture followed the same pattern. You start off as a lamb, you move up to a lion and you finish the lamb.
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Unknown
That's awesome. So if you're listening, I'm going to drop a link to that book in the show notes as well.
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Unknown
I know I'm going to check it out and because it sounds like a great description and, and and, you know, map, you know very much for what we need to, to do as men
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Unknown
that and then so let me
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Unknown
ask as well about passivity.
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Unknown
You know,
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Unknown
how does passivity play into,
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Unknown
this,
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Unknown
this gender gap of the church, this sort of feminization of the church? Is it
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Unknown
are men passive when they go to church, or do they become passive at church, or does it just attract passive men? I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
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Unknown
Okay, well, let me ask Eric, when's the last time you went to church?
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Unknown
Sunday.
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Unknown
All right. What happened to your body in church?
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Unknown
Yeah, I sat,
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Unknown
I stood,
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Unknown
I endured, I smiled, you know, I, I, I had to do small talk, which I don't like doing.
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Unknown
You know, it's one of the other. Oh, man. Like, oh, I had to, I had to do the forced shake of hands. And I'm like, oh, please, just let me be,
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Unknown
But yeah, I was just there.
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Unknown
Yeah, we
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Unknown
I've coined it. I'm going to coin a new phrase in my new book. I'm taking a noun and turning it into a verb. So if you're an English teacher, I apologize this, but this is my new word.
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Unknown
The main thing we do in church is we audience.
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Unknown
We audience for preachers and musicians.
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Unknown
Now
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Unknown
that's a fine. You do need to hear the word. Do you need to sing?
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Unknown
But we do a lot of audience,
00:13:53:08 - 00:13:56:06
Unknown
and most of my Christian life has been audience.
00:13:56:09 - 00:13:57:00
Unknown
So
00:13:57:03 - 00:14:01:10
Unknown
you're talking about passivity. We are modeling passivity. We're modeling consumption
00:14:01:15 - 00:14:02:16
Unknown
every time we gather.
00:14:02:16 - 00:14:06:12
Unknown
And if you want to do something more active, you have to do something besides church.
00:14:06:12 - 00:14:06:18
Unknown
You have to
00:14:06:22 - 00:14:11:19
Unknown
go on a mission trip. Great. Do this, do that, volunteer. Great. Those are wonderful things,
00:14:11:23 - 00:14:17:04
Unknown
but they're not fully integrated into most people's Christian lives. Most people's
00:14:17:09 - 00:14:23:13
Unknown
interaction with the church is to is to come watch the show and then go home and forget everything they learned.
00:14:23:18 - 00:14:25:07
Unknown
That's that's the reality
00:14:25:07 - 00:14:26:19
Unknown
of what's happening. And so,
00:14:26:19 - 00:14:27:21
Unknown
we're going to need some new tools.
00:14:27:21 - 00:14:40:01
Unknown
We're going to need some new ways of being the church that is, that are more active. Because again, let's go back to that verse from Paul. Our true act of worship is to present our bodies as living sacrifices, not just as pew sitters.
00:14:40:04 - 00:14:44:13
Unknown
Yeah, it's it's very much a consumer mentality. We go, we consume, we leave,
00:14:44:16 - 00:14:45:04
Unknown
and
00:14:45:09 - 00:14:47:06
Unknown
anything else has to come separate
00:14:47:06 - 00:14:48:14
Unknown
from optional add on.
00:14:48:14 - 00:15:05:03
Unknown
Yeah. It's. Yeah, it's an optional add on. I love how how you describe it because it's so true and and and so that is something I'm looking forward to hearing about some of those things. And in this book you speak to several things in the new book. I'm really looking forward to seeing what you,
00:15:05:03 - 00:15:07:02
Unknown
what you break out and elaborate on.
00:15:07:02 - 00:15:09:08
Unknown
I think that will be incredibly helpful to churches.
00:15:09:12 - 00:15:09:23
Unknown
I hope so.
00:15:10:03 - 00:15:10:12
Unknown
What
00:15:10:15 - 00:15:12:15
Unknown
in in your book you also talk about
00:15:12:19 - 00:15:16:23
Unknown
man law is now we've, we've talked a just a
00:15:17:03 - 00:15:23:13
Unknown
we sort of touch the surface of it a little bit here. So what are man laws and how do they play out at church.
00:15:23:17 - 00:15:27:03
Unknown
Okay. Well I don't know if you remember, but a few years ago there was,
00:15:27:03 - 00:15:28:02
Unknown
a series of
00:15:28:07 - 00:15:30:01
Unknown
commercials from Miller Beer
00:15:30:04 - 00:15:32:11
Unknown
and had the men of the roundtable.
00:15:32:16 - 00:15:38:07
Unknown
And if you haven't seen these, they're on Google, they're on YouTube, they're hilarious. These funny commercials.
00:15:38:10 - 00:15:43:00
Unknown
The men of the roundtable are sitting around discussing what is acceptable manly behavior.
00:15:43:04 - 00:15:46:17
Unknown
And they make fun of men who do things that are feminine.
00:15:46:21 - 00:15:55:15
Unknown
They make fun of men who go to the bathroom together, the men who carry bags on the side, the men who have tramp stamp tattooed across their backside,
00:15:55:15 - 00:15:56:22
Unknown
men who do anything.
00:15:57:00 - 00:15:59:03
Unknown
There's always been this one way barrier.
00:15:59:05 - 00:16:02:08
Unknown
I call this Murrow's ironclad rule of the genders.
00:16:02:11 - 00:16:04:19
Unknown
Women can do masculine things,
00:16:04:23 - 00:16:08:21
Unknown
but men are absolutely prohibited from doing feminine things.
00:16:09:01 - 00:16:11:22
Unknown
In fact, if a woman does a masculine thing,
00:16:12:01 - 00:16:14:03
Unknown
her she gains social status.
00:16:14:08 - 00:16:19:01
Unknown
Imagine Cindy goes to work on Monday morning and she says, yeah, girls, you know what I did this weekend?
00:16:19:06 - 00:16:21:07
Unknown
I, change the spark plugs in my car.
00:16:21:12 - 00:16:22:22
Unknown
What are his girlfriends thinking?
00:16:23:03 - 00:16:26:01
Unknown
Oh my goodness. Wow. Way to go. You go girl.
00:16:26:05 - 00:16:28:11
Unknown
Now let's say Bart goes to work on Monday morning
00:16:28:16 - 00:16:34:07
Unknown
and he says to his buddies, hey guys, guess what I learned to do this weekend? I learned how to make decorative pillow shams.
00:16:34:10 - 00:16:35:14
Unknown
What are his buddies thinking?
00:16:35:19 - 00:16:39:03
Unknown
What a. I can't even say the word because this is a Christian podcast means,
00:16:39:03 - 00:16:48:08
Unknown
men lose status among their peers when they do something that is feminine, whereas women gain status when they do something that's masculine.
00:16:48:13 - 00:16:57:00
Unknown
So this all kind of ties into what we're talking about here with with church. If church is perceived as something for women, men won't go.
00:16:57:04 - 00:17:06:12
Unknown
But it's if we put a masculine, a healthy, life giving masculine spirit into the church, you will have both men, women and their children
00:17:06:16 - 00:17:17:06
Unknown
fully engaged. And that's kind of been my mission for the last 20 years. Try to help churches put a masculine accent, not a macho accent, but I'm a healthy masculine accent on what they do.
00:17:17:10 - 00:17:18:20
Unknown
And that's been a, you know,
00:17:18:20 - 00:17:20:02
Unknown
a great formula for growth.
00:17:20:07 - 00:17:26:12
Unknown
And I love that, that idea, that masculine accent, not macho but masculine. And you're right, it's
00:17:26:17 - 00:17:29:19
Unknown
men won't do anything they consider to be feminine.
00:17:29:22 - 00:17:31:00
Unknown
They just like
00:17:31:04 - 00:17:38:14
Unknown
they would rather they would rather go to the dentist. They would rather like, I mean, whatever, like they would choose the horrible thing
00:17:38:17 - 00:17:41:19
Unknown
over and over, being associated with
00:17:41:22 - 00:17:42:15
Unknown
the feminine.
00:17:42:19 - 00:17:43:10
Unknown
Yeah. It's true.
00:17:43:13 - 00:17:44:23
Unknown
It does. And
00:17:45:03 - 00:17:46:06
Unknown
how does church language
00:17:46:09 - 00:17:49:03
Unknown
play into that. Because the words that we use
00:17:49:07 - 00:17:51:16
Unknown
in our worship services and our prayers.
00:17:51:19 - 00:17:55:12
Unknown
How does our language make men uncomfortable and not want to be there.
00:17:55:15 - 00:17:56:03
Unknown
Well I think
00:17:56:07 - 00:17:59:11
Unknown
I think a lot of it is starts with our song lyrics.
00:17:59:11 - 00:18:01:00
Unknown
Love songs to Jesus.
00:18:01:00 - 00:18:03:02
Unknown
I tell a funny story in the book about,
00:18:03:02 - 00:18:04:01
Unknown
two hunters
00:18:04:05 - 00:18:05:10
Unknown
who are in a duck blind,
00:18:05:14 - 00:18:11:06
Unknown
and one of them turns to the other and begins reciting the words of a popular praise song.
00:18:11:08 - 00:18:14:00
Unknown
You're so precious to me in our secret place. And
00:18:14:04 - 00:18:18:00
Unknown
it's very romantic. So of course, the other hunter pulls his gun on.
00:18:18:04 - 00:18:24:05
Unknown
I'm the first one, you know. You don't say those sort of things to a man, especially if he has a loaded shotgun. No. So,
00:18:24:10 - 00:18:27:03
Unknown
Yeah. No, I'm. You're so precious to me in our secret place.
00:18:27:06 - 00:18:30:23
Unknown
What what we're asking men to do is express their love to Jesus.
00:18:31:02 - 00:18:36:04
Unknown
A man who is alive using words no man would ever use with any other man.
00:18:36:08 - 00:18:39:08
Unknown
And it's a it just kind of feminize us the whole
00:18:39:13 - 00:18:48:11
Unknown
whole prospect. Again, it back to this emotionalism and and it's an emotionalism in a kind of quasi romantic sense. It just doesn't it men.
00:18:48:15 - 00:18:53:02
Unknown
I think men would rather be led onto the battlefield than into the bedroom.
00:18:53:06 - 00:18:57:10
Unknown
And that's true. And and I've, I've definitely seen it as well. You know,
00:18:57:13 - 00:19:03:01
Unknown
I have had this unease that I couldn't put my finger on
00:19:03:04 - 00:19:05:22
Unknown
about a lot of things in the local church
00:19:06:01 - 00:19:08:12
Unknown
and, and I and that was like this
00:19:08:12 - 00:19:09:14
Unknown
moment as I was reading.
00:19:09:14 - 00:19:10:03
Unknown
And I'm like,
00:19:10:05 - 00:19:14:19
Unknown
that's why. Oh, okay. That's why language is another thing. And,
00:19:14:23 - 00:19:16:09
Unknown
you know, I, I am,
00:19:16:13 - 00:19:26:19
Unknown
you know, you can get into the music wars and I'm not going to go there because I appreciate the way I, the way I've taught my kids, the way I speak to other people is there are hymns that are just not good
00:19:26:23 - 00:19:27:20
Unknown
and not biblical,
00:19:28:00 - 00:19:30:16
Unknown
and there are hymns that are sound and biblical,
00:19:30:21 - 00:19:36:11
Unknown
and there is contemporary Christian music that is sound and biblical, and there's some that's just garbage.
00:19:36:13 - 00:19:40:17
Unknown
So you can't you can't put the genre with the value.
00:19:40:21 - 00:19:43:18
Unknown
But we have I think we've gone away from
00:19:43:23 - 00:19:46:08
Unknown
praising God for who he is
00:19:46:12 - 00:19:50:08
Unknown
and into this, this love letter mindset.
00:19:50:12 - 00:19:52:00
Unknown
Okay, let me jump in there.
00:19:52:00 - 00:19:57:06
Unknown
I think we need songs that praise God for what he does rather than who he is. Okay,
00:19:57:06 - 00:19:57:20
Unknown
men,
00:19:57:20 - 00:20:03:01
Unknown
praise and worship has it's become this quasi romantic thing where we just tell God how wonderful he is.
00:20:03:03 - 00:20:09:14
Unknown
You know, no man would do that for another man. Eric, you're so strong. You're so beautiful. You're such a great. No,
00:20:09:18 - 00:20:13:08
Unknown
you say, Eric, let come over and help me work on my car. Thanks, buddy.
00:20:13:11 - 00:20:17:01
Unknown
We're going to praise a man who helps us or does something.
00:20:17:06 - 00:20:19:03
Unknown
Who does something worthy of praise.
00:20:19:07 - 00:20:20:18
Unknown
So I'm calling on,
00:20:20:18 - 00:20:21:15
Unknown
composers
00:20:21:18 - 00:20:23:09
Unknown
to focus more on God's,
00:20:23:11 - 00:20:24:07
Unknown
mighty works
00:20:24:11 - 00:20:26:20
Unknown
rather than just telling him how wonderful he is.
00:20:26:20 - 00:20:27:05
Unknown
Because
00:20:27:05 - 00:20:29:03
Unknown
a man won't do that for another man.
00:20:29:07 - 00:20:34:00
Unknown
No, no, it is, it is. It is rare and only occasion
00:20:34:03 - 00:20:35:01
Unknown
that a man would do that.
00:20:35:04 - 00:20:41:20
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, but but the doing things, man, you killed that out there, man. Excellent job
00:20:41:23 - 00:20:46:08
Unknown
man. I couldn't have done that if you had to help me lift this thing or do that.
00:20:46:08 - 00:20:52:15
Unknown
Like, all of those things are absolutely true. Guys in general are much more open to doing those types of,
00:20:52:18 - 00:20:59:20
Unknown
yeah, types of things. And here's the thing. We're not making something up. God is doing mighty works among us all the time.
00:20:59:23 - 00:21:03:22
Unknown
There's plenty to praise him for. That's not just how,
00:21:04:00 - 00:21:06:00
Unknown
beautiful he is. Lord. You're beautiful.
00:21:06:00 - 00:21:06:11
Unknown
Come on,
00:21:06:16 - 00:21:07:00
Unknown
you know.
00:21:07:04 - 00:21:07:11
Unknown
So.
00:21:07:16 - 00:21:13:11
Unknown
So let's talk about single guys in the church, especially young, single men. Why are they so reluctant
00:21:13:14 - 00:21:14:12
Unknown
to go to church?
00:21:14:16 - 00:21:15:08
Unknown
Well, I think,
00:21:15:10 - 00:21:17:20
Unknown
there's still. We're still in the vapors of the old,
00:21:18:00 - 00:21:24:16
Unknown
you know, 80s, 90s culture where men are going back hundreds of years. Like I said in the introduction, where men define themselves by sin,
00:21:24:21 - 00:21:26:17
Unknown
the manliest man is the one who sins the most.
00:21:26:20 - 00:21:40:04
Unknown
So there's a lot of young, single men who still define themselves that way. But here's an interesting thing even among non-Christians, the stereotypical sinful behaviors are pulling back, drinking among the young is at an all time low.
00:21:40:04 - 00:21:41:06
Unknown
Young men are,
00:21:41:06 - 00:21:46:01
Unknown
paying lower insurance because they're not driving as much. They're not driving as fast.
00:21:46:01 - 00:21:47:05
Unknown
They're smoking less.
00:21:47:10 - 00:21:53:00
Unknown
They're a fight. Young men. It's much less likely that young men get into a fistfight than they did when I was a kid.
00:21:53:00 - 00:22:00:20
Unknown
So these typical manly behaviors, how men define themselves, they're kind of going away on their own. I don't think this is due to some religious revival.
00:22:01:00 - 00:22:06:23
Unknown
So I think that's also part of the reason we're starting to see more men come to church, because they're paying less of a social price.
00:22:07:02 - 00:22:10:13
Unknown
They've already given up a lot of the sinful behaviors
00:22:10:16 - 00:22:12:13
Unknown
that they would have had to have given up
00:22:12:17 - 00:22:14:10
Unknown
coming to church 50 years ago.
00:22:14:14 - 00:22:16:00
Unknown
That's a good point. And
00:22:16:04 - 00:22:16:15
Unknown
what
00:22:16:19 - 00:22:28:13
Unknown
that is a good point because I, you know, I'm I'm 51 and, you know, I grew up in the 80s of the 90s and yeah, there's a definite I remember in school and everything else, there is a definite behavior
00:22:28:17 - 00:22:29:09
Unknown
shift.
00:22:29:09 - 00:22:31:17
Unknown
And like I say, drinking, smoking, all of those things have
00:22:31:21 - 00:22:32:19
Unknown
have decreased
00:22:32:23 - 00:22:38:15
Unknown
even even. So, I know young men are a difficult group to get it. Is there something
00:22:38:18 - 00:22:41:07
Unknown
that churches can do to combat this?
00:22:41:10 - 00:22:42:00
Unknown
Yeah. Well,
00:22:42:04 - 00:22:44:22
Unknown
here's okay. We got to get into a bigger issue here. Okay.
00:22:44:22 - 00:22:46:13
Unknown
Young men today
00:22:46:17 - 00:22:47:05
Unknown
are
00:22:47:08 - 00:22:48:05
Unknown
consuming
00:22:48:08 - 00:22:49:23
Unknown
streams of content
00:22:50:04 - 00:22:51:01
Unknown
on their devices.
00:22:51:05 - 00:22:56:19
Unknown
So the world's strategy for discipling them is to provide a constant stream
00:22:57:00 - 00:23:00:15
Unknown
of content that baptizes them into a certain worldview,
00:23:00:18 - 00:23:02:15
Unknown
whether that's conservatism,
00:23:02:19 - 00:23:03:19
Unknown
progressivism,
00:23:03:23 - 00:23:04:08
Unknown
or,
00:23:04:08 - 00:23:09:06
Unknown
gaming or whatever it is. The world provides this constant stream of content.
00:23:09:09 - 00:23:10:04
Unknown
And so,
00:23:10:04 - 00:23:15:10
Unknown
in the church, the typical Bible has been under the building. I'm going to talk to you for 30 minutes, 40 minutes.
00:23:15:10 - 00:23:16:07
Unknown
See you next week.
00:23:16:11 - 00:23:20:17
Unknown
We're not providing men with any sort of follow up. We just send them home with no follow up,
00:23:20:21 - 00:23:26:07
Unknown
no chance to review, to practice, no exercises, to practice what was preached.
00:23:26:07 - 00:23:35:20
Unknown
I think in the future, in the future, the churches are going to have to wake up to the reality that they are going to have to not only just produce a single talk that they give on Sunday morning.
00:23:36:00 - 00:23:41:05
Unknown
I put it I'm going to put it this way. In my new book, The Pastor of the future, the pastor of the past was a content creator.
00:23:41:08 - 00:23:49:18
Unknown
He locked himself in his office for 20 30 hours, came up with a talk, gave it, and then everybody went home and thought about it all week because there was no media.
00:23:49:22 - 00:23:50:03
Unknown
The
00:23:50:03 - 00:23:52:14
Unknown
pastor of the future is going to be a content curator.
00:23:52:18 - 00:23:58:20
Unknown
He's going to give maybe a shorter message on Sunday, but then all week long he's going to provide a stream of content,
00:23:58:23 - 00:24:06:12
Unknown
and this will be content from other pastors. He doesn't have to generated himself, but reliable teachers, readings, etc., so that
00:24:06:16 - 00:24:12:06
Unknown
we're putting the gospel into the channels where men already go
00:24:12:10 - 00:24:14:09
Unknown
and we're not just preaching on Sunday.
00:24:14:09 - 00:24:15:06
Unknown
See you next week.
00:24:15:09 - 00:24:21:15
Unknown
We're introducing a concept on Sunday, and then all week long we're teaching you how to live it out using,
00:24:21:17 - 00:24:23:23
Unknown
combination of digital in in real life.
00:24:24:02 - 00:24:25:17
Unknown
So I'm actually working on
00:24:25:17 - 00:24:30:15
Unknown
something called Coaching Church right now, which would be that sort of a church, much shorter sermon.
00:24:30:18 - 00:24:36:14
Unknown
But then all week long, you guys get something called playbook and they're, they're they're being trained.
00:24:36:18 - 00:24:39:11
Unknown
I think that's ultimately what we're going to have to do with young men.
00:24:39:14 - 00:24:41:21
Unknown
If we plug them into the existing model of church,
00:24:42:02 - 00:24:44:14
Unknown
where they come once a week. See you next week.
00:24:44:18 - 00:24:48:06
Unknown
You stand while the band plays. You sit while the pastor speaks. That's going to get old,
00:24:48:10 - 00:24:49:06
Unknown
that's going to get old.
00:24:49:10 - 00:24:51:06
Unknown
And these optional add ons,
00:24:51:11 - 00:24:53:01
Unknown
not everybody is going to be able to do them.
00:24:53:04 - 00:25:01:03
Unknown
I was talking to a pastor just this week, you know, and I was telling him this story. You know, we we send people to church and we send them out with no follow up. And he says, well, all of our small groups
00:25:01:07 - 00:25:02:01
Unknown
do a follow up
00:25:02:01 - 00:25:06:10
Unknown
on to the sermon. And I said, well, that's great, but what percentage of your people attend small groups?
00:25:06:14 - 00:25:12:09
Unknown
And he says, oh, probably 20%. I said, you're lying. Probably closer to ten. And all the guys around that they were, yeah, he's lying.
00:25:12:12 - 00:25:19:04
Unknown
10% of your people do this. And I said, and the reality of small groups, as they get canceled, kids get sick. Sometimes they don't meet.
00:25:19:08 - 00:25:23:10
Unknown
But what if you were putting something in their hands every day on the devices they already carry?
00:25:23:14 - 00:25:26:21
Unknown
And his eyes got really big and he says, well, I don't have time to build that. I says, well,
00:25:27:00 - 00:25:29:21
Unknown
I can do the gathering. And then you do the curating.
00:25:30:00 - 00:25:37:22
Unknown
You just say, oh, this is good. This is not good. This is a trusted source. This is not a trusted source. I mean, we've got to get we've got to up our game with men.
00:25:38:03 - 00:25:41:15
Unknown
Men will stay with us if they really see life change, if they see progress.
00:25:41:19 - 00:25:43:22
Unknown
But if they're just audience week after week,
00:25:44:02 - 00:25:45:14
Unknown
it's not they're not going to stay with us.
00:25:45:17 - 00:25:51:16
Unknown
No, that is so true. And I love that that idea of that content flow. Because that's that's you're right.
00:25:51:21 - 00:25:59:08
Unknown
We today especially young guys like they've grown up with it like I you know, again I remember
00:25:59:10 - 00:26:02:12
Unknown
life before Google, I remember life before,
00:26:02:12 - 00:26:03:09
Unknown
smartphones.
00:26:03:12 - 00:26:03:21
Unknown
But
00:26:04:01 - 00:26:07:03
Unknown
a lot of a lot of guys who are in our churches,
00:26:07:08 - 00:26:09:17
Unknown
they don't like that is just what they've always been.
00:26:09:21 - 00:26:12:04
Unknown
And so this content stream
00:26:12:07 - 00:26:22:04
Unknown
is incredibly helpful because, as you say, they're already there. I think the hard part for pastors is almost is this humbling of themselves to be able to say, I don't have to do it all.
00:26:22:09 - 00:26:24:13
Unknown
I just need to put some good stuff in your hands.
00:26:24:17 - 00:26:27:05
Unknown
Yeah. And we've sort of already been doing this. I mean,
00:26:27:05 - 00:26:29:04
Unknown
pastors recommend books all the time.
00:26:29:07 - 00:26:34:19
Unknown
Here's a great book by Francis Chan. Here's a great book by, you know, D.L. Moody. Whatever. Whoever it is.
00:26:34:19 - 00:26:41:19
Unknown
The problem is people don't read books anymore. We we've got to get those sorts of recommendations on to these devices
00:26:41:23 - 00:26:43:02
Unknown
where people already are.
00:26:43:05 - 00:26:45:04
Unknown
I mean, okay, I'm going to imagine two guys,
00:26:45:07 - 00:26:46:19
Unknown
they both went to church on Sunday.
00:26:46:23 - 00:26:48:09
Unknown
So Eddie comes in,
00:26:48:12 - 00:26:55:06
Unknown
he goes to church, he stands while the band plays. He sits while the pastor speaks. He goes home. And then all week long, you never thinks about the sermon again.
00:26:55:10 - 00:26:58:07
Unknown
Now Fred goes to this different kind of this coaching type church.
00:26:58:11 - 00:27:06:01
Unknown
He stands while the band plays. He sits while the pastor preaches. But then on Monday morning, the first thing he does, he picks up his phone. And there's this playbook for the day,
00:27:06:05 - 00:27:11:14
Unknown
and there's a scripture reading that refers and devotion that refers back to the message he learned.
00:27:11:18 - 00:27:16:01
Unknown
So all week long he's being trained to do to practice what was preached.
00:27:16:04 - 00:27:21:07
Unknown
It would be so easy to generate this, but I can't find a single church in the world that's doing it yet.
00:27:21:11 - 00:27:25:10
Unknown
And so that's what I'm trying to do, is get this going and tell pastors,
00:27:25:13 - 00:27:29:20
Unknown
it is so easy now to gather these things and create a content stream. Why don't we do this?
00:27:30:00 - 00:27:32:07
Unknown
Why don't we, instead of letting our sermons die?
00:27:32:10 - 00:27:43:18
Unknown
Or, you know, Eddie, when he picks up his device, there's no content. He just goes to Fox News Channel or he goes to whatever, and he's more discipled by his by the secular influencers than he is by his pastor.
00:27:43:23 - 00:27:44:13
Unknown
Let's not
00:27:44:13 - 00:27:49:20
Unknown
let's not let this opportunity go by. Let's use the digital tools we have in our tool belt
00:27:49:23 - 00:27:51:14
Unknown
to train to.
00:27:51:16 - 00:28:03:11
Unknown
We introduced Concept on Sunday, but then we train people every day. And if and if you're a pastor out there and you want to get this going, please contact me at David Worldcom. I will help you get your coaching church going.
00:28:03:16 - 00:28:08:00
Unknown
I love it, and that really speaks into this question of discipleship too, because
00:28:08:04 - 00:28:12:15
Unknown
you know, as you know, I as you know, I've, I've talked to people and I've pointed out like
00:28:12:19 - 00:28:13:06
Unknown
you,
00:28:13:10 - 00:28:17:13
Unknown
you become something by, you know, someone else giving it to you.
00:28:17:13 - 00:28:18:12
Unknown
You become a man
00:28:18:15 - 00:28:22:20
Unknown
by being around men. You don't become an electrician by
00:28:22:23 - 00:28:30:14
Unknown
learning it from an elementary school teacher. You learn it by being with an electrician. You know, the trades get this right. And and yet we
00:28:30:19 - 00:28:35:03
Unknown
we in the church, don't we? We have men's groups that don't work
00:28:35:07 - 00:28:39:21
Unknown
and and men's ministries that just don't do that are not helpful.
00:28:40:00 - 00:28:40:12
Unknown
So
00:28:40:16 - 00:28:43:13
Unknown
what's that look like as you're seeing is is
00:28:43:18 - 00:28:46:16
Unknown
how important is this discipleship aspect from that?
00:28:46:19 - 00:28:52:03
Unknown
Okay, I'm glad you brought up men's ministry because there's a lot of really great innovation going on in that sphere,
00:28:52:06 - 00:28:54:01
Unknown
and I'll be reporting on that in my new book.
00:28:54:06 - 00:28:57:11
Unknown
But a lot of us are still based in the old model,
00:28:57:14 - 00:29:00:00
Unknown
which men's ministry equals Bible study.
00:29:00:03 - 00:29:01:18
Unknown
It equals a pancake breakfast.
00:29:01:18 - 00:29:02:13
Unknown
It equals,
00:29:02:17 - 00:29:05:10
Unknown
a service project. Nothing wrong with any of those things.
00:29:05:14 - 00:29:05:22
Unknown
But,
00:29:05:22 - 00:29:06:09
Unknown
the
00:29:06:13 - 00:29:10:20
Unknown
what's interesting is whenever we gather men, we often gather them for a mini church service,
00:29:11:00 - 00:29:20:13
Unknown
like, okay, we're going to come at 630 on Wednesday morning and there's going to be a praise band, and we're going to sing three songs, and then there's going to be a speaker, and then we're going to do breakout groups.
00:29:20:17 - 00:29:23:04
Unknown
The only thing we do different than church is the breakout groups.
00:29:23:08 - 00:29:25:19
Unknown
And a lot of guys have to go to work so they miss group breakout rooms.
00:29:25:23 - 00:29:30:04
Unknown
So the churches are the men's ministries that are really having huge impact
00:29:30:08 - 00:29:30:18
Unknown
are,
00:29:30:21 - 00:29:33:13
Unknown
they're getting men up at 630, but they're meeting out in the field
00:29:33:17 - 00:29:34:20
Unknown
and they're doing some laps
00:29:34:23 - 00:29:37:08
Unknown
and they're they're doing things with their bodies.
00:29:37:11 - 00:29:40:14
Unknown
And then there's a talk. And then as they go around the circle again,
00:29:40:17 - 00:29:50:20
Unknown
they do a challenge. And there's an object lesson and they try to carry something and that represents their sin. They're they're being innovative. They're they're involving men's bodies, not just their minds.
00:29:51:00 - 00:29:51:10
Unknown
And
00:29:51:13 - 00:29:55:04
Unknown
they're doing tremendous thing. These guys are getting transformed, walking around a track,
00:29:55:08 - 00:29:57:01
Unknown
and they're having a book in their hands.
00:29:57:04 - 00:30:06:02
Unknown
As precious as that book is, merely knowing the book doesn't lead to transformation. And so the Pharisees, they knew the book, but they weren't transformed.
00:30:06:05 - 00:30:13:06
Unknown
But Jesus took his men around and did things with them, and they were forever changed. So I think this is actually we've got to work,
00:30:13:06 - 00:30:16:13
Unknown
full body experiences into men's ministry
00:30:16:17 - 00:30:20:10
Unknown
if we're going to attract and retain and transform
00:30:20:14 - 00:30:24:08
Unknown
next to the next generation of men, it can't just be another mini church service.
00:30:24:12 - 00:30:29:10
Unknown
So true. And so I've, I've been part of a men's Alliance tribe since,
00:30:29:12 - 00:30:45:23
Unknown
since January. And so that's been that's been fabulous. I have to say. That's been fabulous. Have you, have you interviewed goose yet on the show? Actually, I'm interviewing him Tuesday next Wednesday. Yeah. So I'm thrilled he accepted the invite. And, and
00:30:45:23 - 00:30:48:04
Unknown
and that group has,
00:30:48:04 - 00:30:51:06
Unknown
sort of redefined some things for me.
00:30:51:06 - 00:30:59:03
Unknown
Like it? Yeah, it really has. And I'm like, well, okay, tell everybody what. Don't tell everybody what you do in Men's Alliance and share some of my time. Yeah. Oh.
00:30:59:07 - 00:31:04:19
Unknown
In Men's Alliance we meet once a week. It's for an hour. It's a hard cut. At an hour we do
00:31:04:22 - 00:31:08:21
Unknown
25 to 30 minute workout, and then we do a 25 to 30 minute devotional.
00:31:09:02 - 00:31:16:06
Unknown
It's all, you know. Everybody leads, everybody builds a fire, everybody leads a workout. And it's
00:31:16:10 - 00:31:21:19
Unknown
it's a good time. It's pretty. It's a low barrier to entry. But but yet there is this challenge,
00:31:21:19 - 00:31:26:19
Unknown
to men to to sweat beside one another. And we suffer together. And,
00:31:26:19 - 00:31:28:08
Unknown
we share together. It's it's
00:31:28:12 - 00:31:28:20
Unknown
it's
00:31:29:00 - 00:31:29:17
Unknown
really cool.
00:31:29:20 - 00:31:30:15
Unknown
Yeah. It.
00:31:30:17 - 00:31:32:02
Unknown
Yeah, it's amazing when,
00:31:32:02 - 00:31:33:12
Unknown
I did some research and I,
00:31:33:16 - 00:31:39:03
Unknown
at the time I wrote Women Go to Church, Islam was the fastest growing religion among men in America.
00:31:39:06 - 00:31:39:16
Unknown
Wow.
00:31:39:19 - 00:31:48:19
Unknown
And so I, I saw what they did in the mosque. You're up, they're down. It's almost like a military thing or almost marching in place. And there's no women in the room.
00:31:49:00 - 00:31:50:01
Unknown
It is only men.
00:31:50:05 - 00:31:51:09
Unknown
So they were actually
00:31:51:13 - 00:31:53:02
Unknown
kicking her butt there for a while.
00:31:53:02 - 00:31:54:18
Unknown
Yeah. Especially among African Americans.
00:31:54:22 - 00:32:05:04
Unknown
And black men grow up in a very feminized church culture, very much about emotion, very much about the church ladies and their hats and their gloves and, you know, three hour long sermons.
00:32:05:09 - 00:32:10:10
Unknown
So a lot of black men were finding a home in Islam because Islam felt masculine.
00:32:10:15 - 00:32:16:07
Unknown
So it comes back to my main point. If you want to engage men and make them feel like it's something for them,
00:32:16:12 - 00:32:20:03
Unknown
you have to speak with a masculine accent. You have to do things
00:32:20:07 - 00:32:21:01
Unknown
that men do.
00:32:21:06 - 00:32:22:15
Unknown
Not macho, but masculine.
00:32:22:19 - 00:32:24:04
Unknown
It's true. And
00:32:24:08 - 00:32:28:11
Unknown
as I've seen it, as I've read it, it's like, man, that makes such,
00:32:28:16 - 00:32:29:14
Unknown
such a difference.
00:32:29:14 - 00:32:32:16
Unknown
Let me jump into your new book that's coming out
00:32:32:20 - 00:32:33:11
Unknown
now.
00:32:33:11 - 00:32:38:22
Unknown
Why Men Love Going to Church. So why why write that one?
00:32:39:02 - 00:32:46:19
Unknown
Okay, well, we are seeing this historic return of men to church. For 700 years, churches have always had more women than men. All of a sudden
00:32:46:23 - 00:32:55:01
Unknown
studies from Barna, from Pew are all showing higher identification among men, Christian identification among men and women.
00:32:55:03 - 00:33:02:16
Unknown
And we're hearing anecdotal reports from all over the world that men are showing up in split missions than showing up in Episcopal churches, are showing up in
00:33:02:19 - 00:33:04:15
Unknown
churches and in costal churches.
00:33:04:19 - 00:33:06:13
Unknown
They're coming to all sorts of churches.
00:33:06:17 - 00:33:07:03
Unknown
So,
00:33:07:03 - 00:33:08:18
Unknown
I thought often, why is this happening?
00:33:08:18 - 00:33:15:22
Unknown
So I'm, I'm going to chapter one of the book. I think it's a sociological phenomenon as much as it is a religious phenomenon.
00:33:16:02 - 00:33:24:16
Unknown
In 2005, when I wrote while I'm in here going to church, I've already established the fact the church spoke with a feminine accent. It was more feminized than culture.
00:33:24:20 - 00:33:26:17
Unknown
Then let's go into the 20 tens.
00:33:26:22 - 00:33:30:06
Unknown
Something new came onto the stage called wokeness.
00:33:30:10 - 00:33:31:07
Unknown
Progressivism
00:33:31:10 - 00:33:40:12
Unknown
and the right way of being was being caring, sensitive, nurturing. Don't offend anyone. I apologize all the time.
00:33:40:14 - 00:33:43:23
Unknown
Tribal land acknowledgments. We're we're so sorry.
00:33:44:02 - 00:33:51:01
Unknown
This this was how the government how businesses, how every institution became feminine
00:33:51:04 - 00:33:52:10
Unknown
in their expression.
00:33:52:13 - 00:33:54:11
Unknown
Even companies that catered to men.
00:33:54:14 - 00:33:58:20
Unknown
Bud light showed a transgender influencer on a can of beer.
00:33:58:23 - 00:34:01:14
Unknown
Gillette showed a transgender
00:34:01:14 - 00:34:02:03
Unknown
shaver
00:34:02:07 - 00:34:05:02
Unknown
and men were just like, what the heck is going on?
00:34:05:07 - 00:34:06:12
Unknown
Every institution
00:34:06:17 - 00:34:10:05
Unknown
has abandoned the traditional roles of men,
00:34:10:05 - 00:34:12:10
Unknown
toxic masculinity men.
00:34:12:16 - 00:34:15:19
Unknown
It there was this all this cultural movement towards feminine.
00:34:15:22 - 00:34:18:00
Unknown
The one institution that didn't move
00:34:18:04 - 00:34:19:16
Unknown
was the evangelical church.
00:34:19:20 - 00:34:24:21
Unknown
We didn't go in for wokeness. We didn't go in for transgender surgeries.
00:34:25:01 - 00:34:27:10
Unknown
We weren't all in on the Palestinians.
00:34:27:13 - 00:34:30:12
Unknown
So what happened is church didn't move.
00:34:30:17 - 00:34:35:08
Unknown
Society moved all the way from being more masculine to being more feminine.
00:34:35:12 - 00:34:36:11
Unknown
Are you following me here?
00:34:36:15 - 00:34:40:04
Unknown
They'll they'll be a graphic in the book to show you what I'm talking about. But,
00:34:40:07 - 00:34:44:07
Unknown
and then there's these two unhealthy extremes. There's extreme wokeness,
00:34:44:07 - 00:34:46:17
Unknown
on the left, which is very feminized.
00:34:46:21 - 00:34:50:17
Unknown
And then you have this unhealthy masculinity on the right call, which I call,
00:34:50:17 - 00:34:51:14
Unknown
the manosphere,
00:34:51:17 - 00:34:56:07
Unknown
where, you know, it's all about, you know, doing terrible things to women and all these things.
00:34:56:10 - 00:35:12:00
Unknown
The church, really, the evangelical church really provides a healthy in most evangelical churches, a healthy middle ground that avoids either of those extremes, the macho preening of the manosphere or the unhealthy nurturing of progressivism.
00:35:12:05 - 00:35:15:04
Unknown
And so men are feeling like the church is a refuge for them.
00:35:15:07 - 00:35:16:06
Unknown
The church never
00:35:16:10 - 00:35:19:14
Unknown
called them toxic. The church never called,
00:35:19:16 - 00:35:22:21
Unknown
never said, you're not supposed to provide or or,
00:35:23:01 - 00:35:23:21
Unknown
care for a woman.
00:35:24:01 - 00:35:26:15
Unknown
The church was always pro marriage. It was always pro-family.
00:35:26:19 - 00:35:28:08
Unknown
Now you've got women on the other side.
00:35:28:12 - 00:35:30:03
Unknown
Women have become much more progressive.
00:35:30:07 - 00:35:34:02
Unknown
And women are actually for the first time, they lose status
00:35:34:07 - 00:35:35:08
Unknown
by saying, I'm a Christian
00:35:35:11 - 00:35:37:06
Unknown
because they're not woke.
00:35:37:09 - 00:35:40:06
Unknown
You know, being a being an evangelical Christian, you're not woke.
00:35:40:09 - 00:35:41:23
Unknown
And women are supposed to be woke.
00:35:42:03 - 00:35:46:13
Unknown
They're supposed to be all about caring and nurturing and sensitivity. And for these various victim groups.
00:35:46:18 - 00:35:54:03
Unknown
So what's happened is men are actually gaining social status by saying, I'm a Christian. It's a way of signaling to each other, I ain't well, brother,
00:35:54:07 - 00:36:01:18
Unknown
but women are losing social status. I'm an evangelical Christian. Oh, you're a Trumpy. Oh, you're a you're a, you know, whatever,
00:36:01:22 - 00:36:02:05
Unknown
right.
00:36:02:09 - 00:36:02:23
Unknown
And so,
00:36:02:23 - 00:36:08:10
Unknown
we've had this complete shift in the last ten, 15, 20 years. So back to my original premise.
00:36:08:14 - 00:36:12:12
Unknown
This is as much a sociological phenomenon as it is a religious one.
00:36:12:17 - 00:36:17:00
Unknown
And we've got a church. I think we got 2 to 3 years to catch this wave.
00:36:17:03 - 00:36:19:06
Unknown
And we can't just turn these guys into,
00:36:19:06 - 00:36:20:01
Unknown
Charlie Kirk
00:36:20:06 - 00:36:20:23
Unknown
disciples.
00:36:20:23 - 00:36:25:02
Unknown
You know, I'm not saying anything about, you know, Charlie's fine, but but but I'm saying
00:36:25:07 - 00:36:37:02
Unknown
they've come because of Charlie Kirk. They've come because of. They hate wokeness. We've got to turn them from their political. They're sociological into true disciples of Jesus. That's our challenge.
00:36:37:05 - 00:36:42:22
Unknown
In the next 2 or 3 years, they're in the house. Let's not turn them into the next generation of passive pew sitters.
00:36:43:03 - 00:36:46:15
Unknown
I, I did not realize that shift
00:36:46:19 - 00:36:53:12
Unknown
to the church for men in the last few years, but it makes total sense because men have nowhere else to go.
00:36:53:17 - 00:36:56:19
Unknown
And not and not. And being a man.
00:36:57:00 - 00:37:02:19
Unknown
Yes. You cannot go with what culture holds right now and, and say I'm a man
00:37:03:00 - 00:37:06:16
Unknown
and like you just can't, you can't land there, you
00:37:06:20 - 00:37:07:13
Unknown
know.
00:37:07:15 - 00:37:10:14
Unknown
And there's a lot of unhealthy on both extremes. Oh yeah.
00:37:10:18 - 00:37:11:03
Unknown
Yeah.
00:37:11:08 - 00:37:15:05
Unknown
The macho preening of the right. I just, I just can't stand it, you know, and all the.
00:37:15:05 - 00:37:15:23
Unknown
The sickening.
00:37:15:23 - 00:37:23:03
Unknown
We need to we need to we'll children into operating rooms and turn them into amputees in the name of kindness. You know what? What?
00:37:23:07 - 00:37:25:15
Unknown
It's just it's just insanity on both sides.
00:37:25:17 - 00:37:31:14
Unknown
But I think a lot of churches are doing a great job not falling for either of these deceptions.
00:37:31:18 - 00:37:34:00
Unknown
You know, there's there's two genders
00:37:34:04 - 00:37:35:01
Unknown
and we love them both.
00:37:35:05 - 00:37:41:01
Unknown
Yeah. And and I love that. But but I agree I think we just have we've got a narrow window
00:37:41:01 - 00:37:43:09
Unknown
to do that before things shift
00:37:43:14 - 00:37:45:10
Unknown
or before something else happens.
00:37:45:10 - 00:37:45:21
Unknown
And then
00:37:46:01 - 00:37:50:01
Unknown
and we lose this, this influx or before they say,
00:37:50:05 - 00:37:53:20
Unknown
yeah, I mean this is better than out there, but this isn't great,
00:37:54:01 - 00:37:56:06
Unknown
you know? And. Oh, you nailed it. Yeah,
00:37:56:09 - 00:37:56:16
Unknown
yeah.
00:37:56:16 - 00:37:57:17
Unknown
Let me audience
00:37:57:20 - 00:38:04:09
Unknown
we've got to do something besides audience. And it can't be an optional add on. It's got to become a regular part of what we do.
00:38:04:12 - 00:38:08:11
Unknown
You know, I will guarantee you, Eric, the longer you stay with Men's Alliance,
00:38:08:15 - 00:38:10:21
Unknown
the more you're going to hear this sentence from guys.
00:38:11:01 - 00:38:12:19
Unknown
Men's Alliance is my church.
00:38:13:00 - 00:38:13:20
Unknown
Have you heard that yet?
00:38:13:23 - 00:38:20:23
Unknown
I haven't, but I've seen I, you know, some guys who were like, this is the only place I feel welcome.
00:38:21:04 - 00:38:21:10
Unknown
Yeah,
00:38:21:14 - 00:38:24:01
Unknown
I hear CrossFit is my church.
00:38:24:03 - 00:38:26:04
Unknown
May is my church. Yeah.
00:38:26:10 - 00:38:28:18
Unknown
The what we consider the parish church,
00:38:28:18 - 00:38:31:00
Unknown
is often a better
00:38:31:05 - 00:38:33:04
Unknown
disciple, making vehicle
00:38:33:08 - 00:38:33:21
Unknown
than
00:38:34:01 - 00:38:34:21
Unknown
regular church.
00:38:35:02 - 00:38:48:00
Unknown
So regular church, let's learn from their example. Let's see what's actually discipling people and figure out how to harness those things. There was a really courageous guy 500 years ago named Martin Luther. If you heard them.
00:38:48:04 - 00:38:53:00
Unknown
Yeah. He wants to train illiterate, information starved, isolated Germans.
00:38:53:04 - 00:38:56:19
Unknown
How to follow Jesus. There's this new invention called the printing press.
00:38:57:00 - 00:39:05:05
Unknown
So he figures out a way. He invents the modern sermon, stand up in front of a stage, put a learned man with a book in his hand, and lecture for 40 minutes.
00:39:05:08 - 00:39:06:18
Unknown
This was an amazing
00:39:06:21 - 00:39:07:13
Unknown
innovation.
00:39:07:17 - 00:39:09:09
Unknown
Here we sit, 500 years later
00:39:09:14 - 00:39:10:16
Unknown
and we're still
00:39:10:21 - 00:39:12:06
Unknown
doing it Luther's way.
00:39:12:10 - 00:39:16:20
Unknown
And we have not adopted any hardly any of the new technologies.
00:39:17:00 - 00:39:20:02
Unknown
We're still putting a learned man on a stage with a book in his hand,
00:39:20:06 - 00:39:22:20
Unknown
lecturing for 40 minutes. See you next week.
00:39:23:00 - 00:39:42:23
Unknown
That is not going to get it done with men. Well, and you make a great point, because Protestant Reformation, Luther and Calvin and Zwingli and all of those that really came about because of the technology of the printing press and the dissemination of information, and they leveraged that to the hilt.
00:39:43:03 - 00:39:47:17
Unknown
I mean, that's, you know, suddenly the people who couldn't afford
00:39:47:21 - 00:39:48:13
Unknown
a book
00:39:48:16 - 00:39:50:06
Unknown
now had access.
00:39:50:11 - 00:39:55:06
Unknown
Yeah. And they could read it and they could read it. The church taught them to read. Yeah.
00:39:55:10 - 00:39:57:10
Unknown
So revolutionary, life changing,
00:39:57:13 - 00:39:59:08
Unknown
destabilized Europe politically.
00:39:59:11 - 00:40:00:18
Unknown
I mean, it was huge.
00:40:00:22 - 00:40:07:08
Unknown
It was huge. We have. Okay, I'll I'll share real quickly. I'll share you one of my favorite verses, acts chapter 17
00:40:07:11 - 00:40:08:18
Unknown
Paul goes into Athens
00:40:08:23 - 00:40:10:07
Unknown
and there's this place called the area
00:40:10:07 - 00:40:10:15
Unknown
agus.
00:40:10:18 - 00:40:20:18
Unknown
And pardon me, I'm going to paraphrase the verse from memory. It says it was a place where everyone did nothing but sit around all day and share the latest ideas and talk about them.
00:40:20:22 - 00:40:21:11
Unknown
And I'm like,
00:40:21:15 - 00:40:22:16
Unknown
that's social media.
00:40:22:19 - 00:40:28:06
Unknown
We have a new area, agus. People do nothing but sit around and discuss the latest ideas.
00:40:28:10 - 00:40:32:05
Unknown
And yet what we put into that area, agus is so bad.
00:40:32:09 - 00:40:35:23
Unknown
We have the the Christian judgment. You know you're going to hell.
00:40:36:02 - 00:40:37:23
Unknown
Abortion is murder. You're a murderer.
00:40:38:03 - 00:40:43:03
Unknown
We're we're just so angry in that area. Agus, was Paul angry?
00:40:43:06 - 00:40:45:02
Unknown
There was false gods all around him.
00:40:45:06 - 00:40:49:15
Unknown
He could have gone full Old Testament and started killing these false prophets. Did he do it?
00:40:49:18 - 00:40:52:17
Unknown
No. He sat down and he reasoned with them.
00:40:52:19 - 00:40:58:04
Unknown
He put the gospel into the terms they understood. And some were saved, some weren't.
00:40:58:08 - 00:41:08:13
Unknown
So I think this is another thing that we've got to do. We've got to start training our people how to be good online citizens, how to win people to Christ online
00:41:08:16 - 00:41:11:08
Unknown
instead of just a, you know, verbal sales pitch to Jesus.
00:41:11:11 - 00:41:14:17
Unknown
Because I think Christians are doing tremendous damage online
00:41:14:20 - 00:41:16:00
Unknown
because of what we post.
00:41:16:03 - 00:41:20:17
Unknown
And so that this is an area where we really do need to train all of our people, especially our men.
00:41:20:22 - 00:41:27:09
Unknown
I hadn't even thought about the whole training process, but that's so true. It's how do we engage in a social media world
00:41:27:12 - 00:41:28:13
Unknown
and be a believer
00:41:28:17 - 00:41:29:07
Unknown
and not
00:41:29:11 - 00:41:35:07
Unknown
be angry? It's okay to have anger, but not to lash out in that anger.
00:41:35:10 - 00:41:37:03
Unknown
Yeah, no. Here's the way I put it.
00:41:37:03 - 00:41:41:02
Unknown
When you are on social media, you can be loving or you can be right.
00:41:41:06 - 00:41:44:15
Unknown
Now, a lot of people just they're right, but they're so unloving.
00:41:44:20 - 00:41:45:09
Unknown
They just.
00:41:45:12 - 00:41:47:11
Unknown
I mean, to stand up for biblical truth.
00:41:47:15 - 00:41:48:10
Unknown
You're a sinner,
00:41:48:15 - 00:41:51:03
Unknown
you know, it's the planks in my eye and I'm going to tell you about it.
00:41:51:03 - 00:41:52:04
Unknown
You know, it's it's just,
00:41:52:08 - 00:41:52:16
Unknown
you
00:41:52:20 - 00:41:55:21
Unknown
you can be loving and you can be right, but
00:41:55:21 - 00:41:57:06
Unknown
but you have to lead with love.
00:41:57:11 - 00:42:01:01
Unknown
Paul said, you know, if I have not love, I'm like a clanging cymbal.
00:42:01:05 - 00:42:03:18
Unknown
So we've got to train. Especially men,
00:42:03:22 - 00:42:08:17
Unknown
how to interact online, how to win their friends to Christ with love and in masculine love.
00:42:08:23 - 00:42:10:01
Unknown
Hey, dude, let's do this.
00:42:10:06 - 00:42:11:12
Unknown
And I think, I think
00:42:11:12 - 00:42:13:17
Unknown
as you were saying, we've got this way we can catch it,
00:42:13:22 - 00:42:16:03
Unknown
but we've got to. We've got to make,
00:42:16:03 - 00:42:21:09
Unknown
I'll give you another one. Here in the modern church, worship is mandatory and discipleship is optional.
00:42:21:13 - 00:42:25:02
Unknown
Worship is mandatory. Discipleship is an optional add on.
00:42:25:06 - 00:42:27:07
Unknown
Now, was that Jesus's priority?
00:42:27:11 - 00:42:31:03
Unknown
No. Jesus said discipleship is mandatory
00:42:31:07 - 00:42:32:02
Unknown
and worship
00:42:32:06 - 00:42:37:16
Unknown
is a very low priority. I'm going to blow your mind here. Jesus never brings up the subject of worship.
00:42:37:20 - 00:42:41:01
Unknown
He never teaches. He never tells anyone to worship.
00:42:41:06 - 00:42:43:00
Unknown
He never leads the crowds in song.
00:42:43:03 - 00:42:53:02
Unknown
It's not that it's wrong to worship or that it's wrong to sing. We have given it this such a huge amount of our time, energy and attention, and we've got to ask ourselves if we're doing this with our time.
00:42:53:02 - 00:42:53:22
Unknown
What are we not doing?
00:42:54:03 - 00:42:58:17
Unknown
We're not making disciples. We're making a great show that gives people all the fields.
00:42:58:20 - 00:42:59:03
Unknown
But
00:42:59:06 - 00:43:02:18
Unknown
we're we're we're training them to come to church and have the fields.
00:43:02:21 - 00:43:05:20
Unknown
We're not training them to courageously follow Jesus.
00:43:05:23 - 00:43:14:11
Unknown
It is it's cotton candy Christianity. And it really is. It's just nothing but sweet and sugary and empty.
00:43:14:15 - 00:43:15:17
Unknown
Yeah, it's all the fields.
00:43:15:21 - 00:43:32:00
Unknown
And again, I'm going to qualify this. It's not wrong to feel emotion. It's it's not wrong. I have a strong feeling toward Jesus. But if that's the end point, if that's the goal, if we're using the smoke machines and the lights and the subwoofers and the and you know, if we're trying to create this feeling,
00:43:32:04 - 00:43:33:17
Unknown
we're just we're missing the boat.
00:43:33:17 - 00:43:37:05
Unknown
Because discipleship is not about feeling Jesus.
00:43:37:09 - 00:43:39:05
Unknown
It's about following Jesus.
00:43:39:08 - 00:43:45:12
Unknown
And we've got to ask ourselves if we're spending 20, 30 minutes doing this, what could this 20 or 30 minutes, how could we're
00:43:45:16 - 00:43:46:00
Unknown
re
00:43:46:00 - 00:43:50:06
Unknown
Re apportion this time to actually doing the thing Jesus told us to do?
00:43:50:09 - 00:43:50:23
Unknown
Indeed
00:43:51:03 - 00:43:57:13
Unknown
man indeed. So as we wrap up here, any last takeaway you want to leave with our audience?
00:43:57:16 - 00:44:01:20
Unknown
We can do this. We have a we have a powerful God who wants to see this done.
00:44:01:20 - 00:44:02:21
Unknown
What we've got to do,
00:44:02:21 - 00:44:04:05
Unknown
we've got to have courage.
00:44:04:09 - 00:44:08:15
Unknown
It's so hard to give up what we've been doing for 500 years. It's hard to
00:44:08:20 - 00:44:10:05
Unknown
if we're going to make people mad.
00:44:10:07 - 00:44:14:01
Unknown
I'm sure every worship leader who was listening to me on that last sentence,
00:44:14:05 - 00:44:14:18
Unknown
it has,
00:44:14:22 - 00:44:16:14
Unknown
slammed their phone to the ground or.
00:44:16:18 - 00:44:17:01
Unknown
But,
00:44:17:04 - 00:44:21:14
Unknown
again, I'm not anti worship. I'm just saying that we've got to do it the way the New Testament tells us to do it.
00:44:21:14 - 00:44:23:21
Unknown
But back to your point. Final words.
00:44:24:01 - 00:44:27:00
Unknown
We've got to have courage to reimagine
00:44:27:03 - 00:44:27:19
Unknown
what we do
00:44:27:23 - 00:44:29:08
Unknown
through the lens of discipleship.
00:44:29:11 - 00:44:31:02
Unknown
Is this making a disciple?
00:44:31:05 - 00:44:32:14
Unknown
Are we making a disciple?
00:44:32:18 - 00:44:37:07
Unknown
And we've got to have the courage to say, if it's not making a disciple, we're going to do something else?
00:44:37:10 - 00:44:43:14
Unknown
Yeah, that is powerful. So and I would agree. And then as we
00:44:43:17 - 00:44:49:19
Unknown
as we wrap up, if people want to know more about you, they want to know more about your books. Where do you want them to go?
00:44:49:19 - 00:44:56:08
Unknown
Pop this up on the screen for me. It's, David McCombe. That's all things related to the books,
00:44:56:13 - 00:44:58:00
Unknown
to the coaching church.
00:44:58:03 - 00:44:58:19
Unknown
I've got a lot of,
00:44:58:19 - 00:45:06:01
Unknown
exciting projects going on that I'd love to help your church implement so that you can catch this wave of men and boys
00:45:06:04 - 00:45:06:15
Unknown
and,
00:45:06:15 - 00:45:09:10
Unknown
experience the harvest that Jesus promised.
00:45:09:13 - 00:45:13:05
Unknown
David. Mural.com. It's going to be in the show notes. You can put it on the screen for you.
00:45:13:09 - 00:45:15:11
Unknown
David, this has been phenomenal.
00:45:15:14 - 00:45:25:19
Unknown
I had to cut it because we ran out of time and I didn't even like it. Just slipped by. It was it was just that kind of conversation. So thanks for joining us today I appreciate it. I know the audience does too.
00:45:25:22 - 00:45:26:15
Unknown
Thank you. Eric.