Discipling the Next Generation: A Vision for the Church and Home - David Michael, Truth78

Episode Overview

Eric Rutherford sits down with David Michael to explore what it actually means to pass the faith from one generation to the next. They unpack the biblical mandate behind next generation ministry, why churches often miss the mark despite good intentions, and what a practical, vision-oriented approach to discipling children looks like — in both the church and the home. This episode is directly relevant to fathers who want to lead their families with intentionality and theological depth.

Key Points

1. Truth78 is built on Psalm 78 — and so is the mandate. The organization takes its name from Psalm 78, which describes a God-given responsibility to pass a testimony of faith from generation to generation, so that those not yet born would set their hope in God. That multigenerational vision is the driving framework for everything Truth78 produces.

2. Next generation ministry has one primary reason for existing. It is not primarily to attract families, to keep children safe, or to give parents a distraction-free worship service — though those are fine secondary outcomes. The primary reason is to transfer truth about God from one generation to the next. When that gets displaced by secondary concerns, problems follow.

3. Most churches lack an intentional 18-year plan. Churches are generally intentional about presenting the gospel and running quality programs, but few have a structured, long-range strategy for what truth they want children to have by the time they leave home. David argues for what he calls vision-oriented parenting — asking now what you want to be true of your child at 20, 30, or 40, and building backward from there.

4. The Whole Counsel of God — five streams. Drawn from Acts 20 where Paul declares himself "innocent of your blood" because he did not shrink from declaring the whole counsel of God, Truth78 has organized comprehensive discipleship around five streams:

• Gospel Proclamation — a robust, not superficial, understanding of the gospel; many teenagers who grew up in church cannot explain why sin is a problem or how Christ's death solves it
• Biblical Survey — walking children through the full narrative of Scripture, Genesis to Revelation, multiple times over 18 years (the More Than a Story two-volume resource does this in about 750 pages)
• Moral and Ethical Instruction — practical wisdom from Scripture, through the Way of the Wise curriculum
• Systematic Theology — essential doctrines taught accessibly; the ABCs of God covers all of God's attributes in 40 lessons for early elementary students
• Biblical Theology — the redemptive story arc running through all of Scripture, taught through resources like What a Savior

5. Kids are not bored by depth — they hunger for it. A common fear in children's ministry is that heavy content will lose kids. Truth78's experience is the opposite. First graders learning the word "incomprehensible" as an attribute of God love it, use it, and bring it home. Children respond positively to being taken seriously and given something real.

6. Transfer of truth is not merely transactional — it targets mind, heart, and will. The goal is not just filling a child's head with correct theology. Instruction is aimed first at the mind (understanding), then the heart (desire), then the will (obedience). Truth that stays only in the mind loses its power. The framework is: get from the head to the will through the heart.

7. Parents are the primary disciplers — not the church. David is direct: the church and home must partner together, but the discipleship responsibility belongs to parents first. Many parents default to "that's why I take them to church" — essentially outsourcing what is biblically their calling. The church's job is to give parents the vision and tools to do what they are already called to do.

8. Men especially need practical tools, not just a call to lead. David has talked to hundreds of fathers over the years. Not one pushed back on the responsibility. The gap is not desire — it is knowing what to do. Give a man something specific and achievable. One example he offers: make it your aim daily to bring Christ near to your wife and children. That might be a quick prayer at the door before school. It does not require a formal devotional setup to be meaningful.

9. Every church member has two contributions to make. David challenges every person in the pew — not just parents or ministry workers — with two things: set a worthy example and pray. Children are watching adults in the congregation; that influence is happening whether it is intentional or not. And 15 minutes of prayer per week — three minutes a day, five days — focused on the next generation in your sphere could move mountains if done across a whole church.

10. Prayer is the engine — everything else is infrastructure. Perfect curriculum, aligned leadership, committed parents — none of it accomplishes anything unless God moves on the hearts of children. David closes with the example of Jesus praying for Peter's faith not to fail, even though he already knew the outcome. Jesus prayed because God moves in response to prayer. That is the posture Truth78 wants to cultivate in every parent, teacher, and grandparent.

Quotable Moments

"We've been given a testimony. Pass it on to your children. Teach them to teach their children so that the next generation will set their hope in God."

"We have these children from birth and we have them for maybe 18 years. What is our plan for effectively passing the truth on to them?"

"I've talked to hundreds of dads and I have not found one who said, no, that's not my job. It's in their heart to do it. They just need something specific to put in their hands."

"We want to get from the head to the will through the heart."

"I think we pray wimpy prayers for children. Let's pray biblical prayers."

"Prayer is the engine that drives children's ministry in your church."

Resources Mentioned

• Truth78 — truth78.org Full library of curriculum, sample lessons, seminars, and teaching resources for churches and families
• Zealous: Seven Commitments for the Comprehensive Discipleship of the Next Generation by David Michael — a book for church leaders and Sunday school teachers to align around the purpose of next generation ministry (includes a study guide)
• More Than a Story (two volumes, ~750 pages) — takes children through the full biblical narrative from Genesis to Revelation; designed to be worked through 2-3 times over 18 years
• ABCs of God — 40-lesson curriculum covering all of God's attributes for early elementary students
• The Way of the Wise — curriculum focused on moral and ethical instruction from Scripture
• What a Savior — kindergarten curriculum on Jesus rooted in biblical theology
• Big, Bold Biblical Prayers for the Next Generation by David Michael — a resource to help parents and grandparents move beyond general prayers toward prayers grounded in Scripture and God's promises
• Nurturing the Faith of Our Children — seminar resource David developed that churches can use to equip individual parents

Action Steps for Listeners

If you are a father:

• Ask the long view question: what do you want to be true of your child spiritually at 20, 30, or 40? Start planning backward from there
• Daily aim to bring Christ near — a brief prayer at the door, a question about what they are reading in Scripture, a blessing as they leave for school
• Pray specifically and biblically for your children; pick up Big, Bold Biblical Prayers as a starting point

If you are a church leader or pastor:

• Do a six-week teaching series on next generation ministry to build a shared vocabulary and vision
• Pull fathers together by age group (all dads of first graders, all dads with kids in Sunday school) for breakfast and cast vision
• Work toward a culture where anyone in the church could answer, without prompting: "Why does children's ministry exist?"
• Read Zealous with your elder board or children's ministry team

If your church leadership is not there yet:

• Start where you have access — your Sunday school class, your own children, individual parents you know
• Host a small seminar or parent gathering; you do not need institutional buy-in to begin equipping people around you

If you are any member of any congregation:

• Commit to 15 minutes per week praying for the next generation in your sphere — your children, grandchildren, kids in your Sunday school class, children in your neighborhood
• Be the kind of person a child could be pointed to as an example worth following

Do all of the following at https://entrustingthefaith.com/ 

• Sign up for the newsletter
• Contact me about speaking opportunities
• Buy the book Leading Well at Home: Husbands and Fathers Can Biblically Lead Their Families

Transcript

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Welcome to the entrusting the Faith podcast. I'm your host, Eric Rutherford, and I am thrilled today because I have with me David Michael. He is the executive director of truth 78.

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He served in ministry for 33 years, including 28 years under the shepherding ministry of John Piper, where he spent his final 16 years as pastor for parenting and family discipleship,

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followed by another five years as pastor for next generations at College Park Church in Indianapolis.

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He's married to Sally, who is co-founder

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and author at truth 78. If two adult daughters, a son in law and three grandchildren. David, welcome to the show. Thank you Eric, it's a joy to be here.

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I am thrilled you are here. And just as we're getting into this conversation, would you,

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just share with the audience a little bit about truth 78?

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Like what? What is truth 78 and what do you do there?

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Well, trust me, it gets its name from Psalm 78, which

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tells us that we've been entrusted with a testimony. The Lord established a law in Israel which he

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commanded our fathers to teach to their children,

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so that the next generation would set their hope in God. And so true 78 is passionate about

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accomplishing what we're

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what God's

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people are called to do

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biblically.

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In Psalm 78, we want to

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do that. We want to promote that

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calling that's on, on, on all of us. And

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and then provide tools to help the church and help parents in the home accomplish that. So we've been given a testimony. Pass it on to your children. Teach them to teach their children so that the next generation will set their hope in God.

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And we've got tools to help you do that.

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Excellent. And for everybody listening,

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And then so let's just talk a little bit about

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next generation ministry

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and what what is next generation ministry?

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That's a great question. And,

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it's one of those

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terms that we use and throw around a lot. Not everybody understands exactly,

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what it means, so I'm glad you asked it.

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So when I say next generation ministry, I mean ministry within the church, typically that's focused on children, youth.

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So youth ministry, children's ministry, nursery,

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ministry, but other things like VBS and outreach into the community, other anything that's involving investing in the next generation. Some churches use the word family ministry would include that parenting,

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and

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yeah, all of those

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that

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that collection of activity that's often in the church that relates to and serves the next generation.

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So why does it exist in our churches? Like is there a is there a,

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is there a primary focus

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that it is or delivers or results like what's

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why does it exist?

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That's another really good question. And it's,

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it's interesting that it's it's a question

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that

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the answer again is kind of assumed. It's like saying

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why does

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worship exist in the church or why does preaching exist?

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It's sort of

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does it even need to be asked,

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why does next generation ministry exist?

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And generally speaking, I would say the average person

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never even considers the question, why does it just assume to be there?

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If someone were to give a thoughtful answer to that question,

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most likely they would give a respectable answer.

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And

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my contention is my conviction is that

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everybody in the church should be able to answer that question. And what I'm saying these days is,

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I think there's one

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primary answer. One

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main reason for children's ministry in the,

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in the church,

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and that is

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to transfer truth

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about God

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from one generation to the next. That's why it exists.

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And

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our experience is that in the context of most churches,

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that doesn't

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come to mind.

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We there's other good things

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that children's ministry accomplishes, but that's

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that particular focus on.

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We've got it. We've been entrusted with the testimony. Psalm 78 says,

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pass it on to your children.

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We we miss that

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responsibility of passing.

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We we all want our children to grow up knowing the Lord.

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And so a lot of people will say that. And that's true. But in knowing the Lord, we want,

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our children to understand

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as much as they can about the Lord that there's this he's a big God, and there's a glorious truth that we want to them to get. And we

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it's wise and it's helpful if we can be intentional about passing all of it on to our children.

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So do you.

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Just in your observations, the churches you've seen, the people you've talked to

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is the intentionality, because I think that's a really good point.

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Do we miss intentionality? Do churches miss that intentionality?

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Does it get sort of rolled into sort of programing, so to speak, and we lose that focus? I'd love for you to expand on that.

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Yeah, I, I think you'll find a lot of intentionality in the church.

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But

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intentional about passing truth on to the next year and a

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and a

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a a large body of truth.

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That

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intentionality

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we don't often see. So

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you'll see in churches, if they're very intentional about communicating the gospel to the children. And amen to that, and very intentional about having high quality programing. We want the children to be safe. We want to be well cared for. That's all very intentional.

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But this idea of

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of transferring truths

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and how are we going to do that?

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What's our plan? What's our strategy? We've got these little kids at birth and we have them maybe for the next 18 years or so.

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What's our plan during those 18 years for,

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for

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effectively passing the truth on to them.

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And, and I think it's key is, is having a plan and working the plan

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and

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this transfer of truth

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to families.

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I don't know, do they do they get where do families get this wrong or where do churches get this wrong? Or do we just not often

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think far enough ahead meeting

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that we're so focused on today that we forget 50 years from now, or 75 years from now, when we are, we are long gone. And and like it is, it is our children and our grandchildren's

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responsibility to to transfer this truth.

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Yeah.

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That so that long term view, for one thing. So in Psalm 78, you know, it says,

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these words,

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these are the words that our fathers have given us that we should tell to the next generation. So they should rise and teach to their children so that even those yet to be born

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would be set, their set, their hope in God.

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So Psalm 78 has this long view.

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And,

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and we want

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to instill in parents that longer view. So

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I, I talk about

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vision oriented parenting.

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And,

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typically, I've had the privilege over the years of sitting down,

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preparing parents for the dedication of their children. And we encourage them to spend three hours with us on a Saturday morning.

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And in the first segment of that, our aim is just to help parents to think long term in terms of their children. What do you want to be true for your child 20 years from now?

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How do you want them to understand

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who God is and what he's about? How much Bible do you want them to understand? How do you want them to respond?

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If you were to suddenly pass away and they're faced with the death of a parent or

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put yourself out, put them out 30 years, 40 years, put them out at their deathbed. What what do you want them to be clinging to when they're

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breathing their last breath? Where do you want them setting their hope?

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And my contention is let's start in the nursery

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to begin to

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get that foundation that's going to be so crucial, especially growing up in these crazy times right now.

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So foundational for our children. So they got a firm place to stand as they move through life.

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So yeah, it's it's really from,

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from birth all the way until they

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are out of our homes. Yes.

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Yeah. And I think parents,

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many of the ones that I talked to

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have

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a,

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an appreciation.

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And so we use the word discipleship a lot.

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I've only been recently using this word transfer.

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Our mission is

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to inspire

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and equip the church in the home for the comprehensive discipleship of the next generation.

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And many parents, when and we try to emphasize parents,

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your primary discipleship responsibility are for your children.

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Your job is to disciple these children in the faith. And I think

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over these last few years, we've seen more parents come to terms with that.

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Parents are naturally thinking, you, we're going to feed them, clothe them, educate them. They put a lot of emphasis on that, and we want to make sure they have certain experiences with athletics or music or whatever.

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But

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it's less often the parents

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have kind of an intentional plan.

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How am I going? What's my plan for the discipleship of my children?

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For many parents, they say, well, that's why I take them to church. That's why we want them to be in a good Sunday school.

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But

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I'm sure on your podcast over the years, you've you've seen the emphasis, you've

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recognized the emphasis of both church and home, partnering together for the discipleship of the next generation.

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Yeah. And

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and it it's it's interesting you bring, you know, that that idea of well that's why I'm taking them to church

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and I know that that that sentiment is

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that's a lot of people's sentiments almost as

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well.

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I'm just trying to put them in proximity. I call it outsourcing.

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This, this discipleship function.

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But at the same time, like.

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Yeah,

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like that's our responsibility as parents, like, you know, that, you know, we're going to stand before a holy God one day and he's going to say, what did you do with with what I gave you?

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And

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we gotta give an answer.

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Yes.

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And,

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and I,

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I would say that

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most of the parents I talked to in the church

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understand that,

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their heart

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is to do that.

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And I just think where the church has

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dropped the ball

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is to really

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give parents the tools that they need

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and the vision that they need,

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and just

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the kind of teaching that they need to help them to do that.

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We all say, yes, you need to disciple your children, but what does that actually look like?

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I work with a lot of dads

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and

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I'm

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especially passionate about

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helping dads

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fulfill

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their God given privilege and responsibility for the discipleship of their children.

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And I, I've talked to hundreds of dads over the years, and I've not found one

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who said,

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stiff arm me and said, no, that's not my job or I'm not interested in that.

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That's why I'm saying the church

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every, every day and I talk to it's in their heart to do it.

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But

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men, especially benefit if you just

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give them something

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specific, give them a tool. Guys like tools fucking put a tool in their hands. Or if I can

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just practically help them see what it looks like

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to most. Most dads get that

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it's really important

00:11:19:13 - 00:11:20:15

to have family worship.

00:11:20:20 - 00:11:23:18

They should lead family worship or devotions

00:11:23:23 - 00:11:24:13

at church. And

00:11:24:18 - 00:11:28:11

and I say Amen. That's a great strategy

00:11:28:16 - 00:11:29:02

for men.

00:11:29:06 - 00:11:33:12

But often men measure their effectiveness of spiritual leadership.

00:11:33:17 - 00:11:41:21

And often what the church gives to men is just, you know, lead family devotions and you'll be fine. And I just want there's so much more

00:11:41:26 - 00:11:42:13

than just

00:11:42:18 - 00:11:46:02

an activity. I'm trying to build a mindset

00:11:46:06 - 00:11:46:25

into men.

00:11:47:00 - 00:11:50:02

Start with the mindset and then give them some

00:11:50:07 - 00:11:50:23

basic,

00:11:50:28 - 00:11:51:19

simple

00:11:51:23 - 00:11:52:21

steps like,

00:11:52:21 - 00:11:53:00

one.

00:11:53:05 - 00:11:57:14

So yes, family devotions is good. I say to a guy,

00:11:57:19 - 00:12:01:17

make it your aim to daily bring Christ near

00:12:01:21 - 00:12:06:11

to your wife and to your children. Bring them near. It might be as they're headed out the door.

00:12:06:16 - 00:12:07:28

Put your arm around him and say,

00:12:08:03 - 00:12:09:02

Johnny, I'm.

00:12:09:07 - 00:12:18:12

I want to pray for you right now as you step out onto the stage. I mean, Jesus, may the Lord Jesus be with you and sustain you and be your help and your strength, and

00:12:18:17 - 00:12:20:12

pronounce a blessing on him.

00:12:20:16 - 00:12:22:00

So it doesn't have to be

00:12:22:04 - 00:12:23:17

an overwhelming task, but just

00:12:23:22 - 00:12:26:18

give him something practical that he can

00:12:26:23 - 00:12:27:03

do.

00:12:27:04 - 00:12:27:12

It's

00:12:27:17 - 00:12:27:27

it's,

00:12:27:27 - 00:12:32:28

tuning in to, you know, is your is your child reading his Bible? If he's old enough to read.

00:12:33:02 - 00:12:36:29

And what's he reading? And how is God speaking? It doesn't.

00:12:37:03 - 00:12:45:04

You know, it's a simple question that you can have a dad or a parent asked to just encourage them to tune in to where their kids are at spiritually.

00:12:45:09 - 00:12:49:10

I love that. I love that, and I think that's that's so true. I think with guys it's

00:12:49:15 - 00:12:50:20

the desire is there.

00:12:50:25 - 00:12:51:14

But then

00:12:51:19 - 00:12:58:12

what do I do? Like how do I do this. And so I like that idea of some simple tool, some simple steps

00:12:58:17 - 00:12:59:12

that they can

00:12:59:17 - 00:13:05:27

sense. Like they can get some quick wins and like get some success so that they, they want to do it more.

00:13:06:00 - 00:13:06:05

Yeah.

00:13:06:10 - 00:13:06:15

Yeah.

00:13:06:20 - 00:13:07:02

So

00:13:07:06 - 00:13:08:05

you talk about,

00:13:08:10 - 00:13:10:19

you know, you talk about scope of, of

00:13:10:19 - 00:13:12:01

next generation ministry.

00:13:12:06 - 00:13:14:01

And then you mentioned, you know, really

00:13:14:05 - 00:13:15:04

teaching

00:13:15:09 - 00:13:17:13

just how big God is.

00:13:17:18 - 00:13:22:27

And just so what you and we talk about the whole council of God. So

00:13:23:01 - 00:13:24:27

what is the whole council of God

00:13:25:02 - 00:13:27:25

and and how do you define that? What does that look like?

00:13:28:00 - 00:13:29:28

Okay, that's a great question. So

00:13:30:03 - 00:13:31:13

back up a little bit. We've got

00:13:31:18 - 00:13:35:09

to transfer this truth. Okay. Psalm 78 says

00:13:35:14 - 00:13:35:28

it's a

00:13:36:03 - 00:13:42:24

the Lord established the testimony of Jacob. He appointed a law in Israel. So he got this testimony. And Jacob, you got the law

00:13:42:29 - 00:13:44:25

and pass that on to your children,

00:13:44:29 - 00:13:45:17

or you go to

00:13:45:22 - 00:13:48:14

Deuteronomy six, which is one that

00:13:48:19 - 00:13:50:20

where it's often quoted with children's ministry,

00:13:50:25 - 00:13:55:07

where Moses says, these words that I'm giving you today shall be on your heart.

00:13:55:11 - 00:14:01:08

Teach them to your children. So there's this collection of words that you need to teach

00:14:01:13 - 00:14:02:05

your children.

00:14:02:09 - 00:14:04:16

The whole counsel of God comes from

00:14:04:21 - 00:14:06:06

acts 20,

00:14:06:11 - 00:14:08:00

where Paul is,

00:14:08:00 - 00:14:10:27

on the shores of Miletus. He's got the,

00:14:10:27 - 00:14:12:02

Ephesian elders

00:14:12:07 - 00:14:14:03

gathered around them,

00:14:14:08 - 00:14:15:19

and he says,

00:14:15:24 - 00:14:17:08

I'm innocent of your blood

00:14:17:12 - 00:14:22:19

because I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole council of God.

00:14:22:24 - 00:14:25:29

And that's a very sobering passage for me.

00:14:26:04 - 00:14:29:23

And in the years that I've served as an elder, especially

00:14:29:26 - 00:14:31:15

this responsibility to

00:14:31:20 - 00:14:32:15

pass on

00:14:32:20 - 00:14:40:01

the whole council of God, and I especially feel it leading Next generation ministries, I think we need to feel that

00:14:40:06 - 00:14:40:18

when we're

00:14:40:23 - 00:14:44:24

looking at our children, raising them in our homes, raising them in our churches

00:14:44:29 - 00:14:46:07

to understand.

00:14:46:09 - 00:14:48:19

Paul saw this task of

00:14:48:24 - 00:14:51:04

of imparting the whole council of God,

00:14:51:04 - 00:14:58:16

as so important that had he not done that, he would have been guilty of the blood of this church.

00:14:58:21 - 00:15:07:19

And I just think as parents, as as leaders in children's ministry, in the church, we need to feel that. And a big question is one that you ask, what then is

00:15:07:24 - 00:15:09:03

the whole council of God?

00:15:09:07 - 00:15:11:23

And if we would be guilty of

00:15:11:25 - 00:15:13:22

of the blood of our children if we're not

00:15:13:26 - 00:15:17:18

doing it, what is it? And we devoted a whole conference to this,

00:15:17:18 - 00:15:24:03

several years ago. You can still download it online is what is the whole Council of God. And we had some really good

00:15:24:08 - 00:15:25:17

input. But if you,

00:15:25:22 - 00:15:27:14

as we've tried to understand it,

00:15:27:18 - 00:15:27:27

we

00:15:28:01 - 00:15:28:12

we've

00:15:28:17 - 00:15:34:27

kind of categorized the teaching into what we would call five streams.

00:15:35:02 - 00:15:35:18

So

00:15:35:23 - 00:15:38:26

the first stream is gospel proclamation.

00:15:39:01 - 00:15:48:18

We want our children to have a robust understanding of the gospel, and that that stream should flow all through

00:15:48:23 - 00:15:49:06

our

00:15:49:10 - 00:15:54:10

instruction of our children for the first 20 years. And it's amazing to me. Eric,

00:15:54:14 - 00:15:58:11

how many children can grow up going to church all their life

00:15:58:15 - 00:15:59:03

and,

00:15:59:03 - 00:16:01:00

grow up in godly homes,

00:16:01:05 - 00:16:05:02

hear the gospel, quote unquote, all of their lives.

00:16:05:02 - 00:16:09:09

And I was one of those kids. I had great parents, great church.

00:16:09:14 - 00:16:14:04

And I came out of that with a very superficial understanding of the gospel.

00:16:14:08 - 00:16:22:26

And so I will look at parents and say, can we at least make sure by the time we launch our children, they have a robust understanding of the gospel?

00:16:23:01 - 00:16:24:05

I've, I've done,

00:16:24:07 - 00:16:25:03

is an elder.

00:16:25:03 - 00:16:29:06

I've gotten had the privilege of interviewing people for membership

00:16:29:10 - 00:16:30:03

and

00:16:30:06 - 00:16:32:25

and among them are young people who are

00:16:33:00 - 00:16:37:26

getting ready for baptism. And the question whether you're pursuing membership or

00:16:38:01 - 00:16:38:10

for,

00:16:38:10 - 00:16:39:00

baptism.

00:16:39:04 - 00:16:41:19

Common question is what your understanding of the gospel

00:16:41:24 - 00:16:45:14

and with kids, older kids like 1617

00:16:45:19 - 00:16:45:27

to.

00:16:46:02 - 00:16:47:17

Where they would say something like,

00:16:47:17 - 00:16:52:14

Jesus died for my sins. And if I ask them into my heart,

00:16:52:19 - 00:16:54:17

I will go to heaven when I die.

00:16:54:21 - 00:16:56:07

And if you ask the question,

00:16:56:11 - 00:16:57:20

why is sin a problem?

00:16:57:24 - 00:16:59:19

It's deer in the headlights.

00:16:59:24 - 00:17:00:09

And

00:17:00:14 - 00:17:02:27

if you were to ask them, how does Jesus

00:17:03:02 - 00:17:03:20

death

00:17:03:24 - 00:17:05:14

solve that sin problem?

00:17:05:19 - 00:17:07:28

And how do I lay claim

00:17:08:03 - 00:17:10:11

to the benefit of the cross?

00:17:10:11 - 00:17:12:24

How do I I asked Jesus in your heart, what

00:17:12:28 - 00:17:13:22

does that mean?

00:17:13:27 - 00:17:14:09

And

00:17:14:13 - 00:17:15:01

and so

00:17:15:06 - 00:17:16:18

part of what drives us

00:17:16:23 - 00:17:22:27

in this ministry is let's let's give our children a robust understanding of the gospel that begins,

00:17:23:02 - 00:17:24:12

I believe, in the nursery.

00:17:24:17 - 00:17:27:27

And and that theme needs to carry all the way through. And what's

00:17:28:02 - 00:17:29:07

actually, sadly,

00:17:29:07 - 00:17:36:02

been impressed on me is many of their parents can't get much deeper than that superficial understanding of the gospel.

00:17:36:07 - 00:17:40:12

And so if we can equip parents with tools to teach the gospel

00:17:40:17 - 00:17:41:13

to their children.

00:17:41:18 - 00:17:50:01

What happens is the children have a deeper, more robust understanding and parents also will have. So that's one stream,

00:17:50:06 - 00:17:52:14

a, a biblical survey

00:17:52:18 - 00:17:56:14

is kind of a second stream. We, we want to give our children,

00:17:56:14 - 00:17:57:20

exposure to the,

00:17:57:25 - 00:18:00:28

the full biblical narrative from Genesis to Revelation.

00:18:00:28 - 00:18:03:22

We, we produced a little book and not a little book.

00:18:03:22 - 00:18:06:06

It's a two volume work called More Than a Story.

00:18:06:11 - 00:18:06:22

That,

00:18:06:26 - 00:18:07:10

is

00:18:07:15 - 00:18:12:16

that takes what is about 8000 pages of curriculum that

00:18:12:20 - 00:18:17:20

we, we've created for teaching the whole Council of God. It

00:18:17:25 - 00:18:18:11

puts it,

00:18:18:11 - 00:18:22:08

into two volumes, about 750 pages total.

00:18:22:13 - 00:18:24:26

But those books are designed to

00:18:25:01 - 00:18:30:02

work to help parents take their children through over time, the full

00:18:30:07 - 00:18:33:27

scope of Scripture, not obviously in great detail.

00:18:33:27 - 00:18:38:23

And we take 88,000 pages and we're still not getting to the depth that we could.

00:18:38:27 - 00:18:42:22

But I say to parents, if if you could work through that, said,

00:18:42:26 - 00:18:44:12

2 or 3 times over the

00:18:44:17 - 00:18:46:00

first 18 years of a life,

00:18:46:05 - 00:18:49:06

they, they will leave home with a with a pretty

00:18:49:10 - 00:18:53:05

solid understanding of the full scope of Scripture. So that's

00:18:53:10 - 00:18:54:08

the second stream.

00:18:54:13 - 00:18:57:23

Moral and ethical instruction would be the third stream.

00:18:57:23 - 00:19:02:04

So the Bible is full of good counsel, good instruction,

00:19:02:08 - 00:19:02:20

and,

00:19:02:25 - 00:19:09:10

and it would make our children help, make our children wise. We have a curriculum called

00:19:09:15 - 00:19:10:20

The Way of the wise,

00:19:10:25 - 00:19:11:14

because

00:19:11:18 - 00:19:14:01

the Bible is full of wisdom, and we want to,

00:19:14:01 - 00:19:19:23

give help our children grow and benefit from the the moral and ethical teaching of the church

00:19:19:27 - 00:19:20:16

of the Bible.

00:19:20:20 - 00:19:22:05

Systematic theology

00:19:22:10 - 00:19:22:23

would

00:19:22:28 - 00:19:28:24

be the fourth stream. So those are the essential doctrines of our faith,

00:19:28:28 - 00:19:30:12

which are rooted in Scripture.

00:19:30:16 - 00:19:33:24

So the doctrines of God, the doctrine of salvation, we don't

00:19:33:29 - 00:19:39:02

necessarily use those terms. Okay, kids, this year we're going to study the doctrine of

00:19:39:07 - 00:19:45:21

of God. No, we we give them the ABCs of God, which is all of God's attributes

00:19:45:26 - 00:19:53:23

in 40 lessons and then fifth grade, sixth grade around there we give them the names of God, which is another way that God reveals himself,

00:19:53:23 - 00:19:54:24

through his names.

00:19:54:29 - 00:20:07:04

We'll have a we have a curriculum on Jesus. What a savior that we teach in kindergarten, which is basically our fifth stream, biblical theology. So what is the the main

00:20:07:09 - 00:20:10:17

redemptive story from Genesis to

00:20:10:22 - 00:20:13:08

Revelation, and how does

00:20:13:12 - 00:20:15:17

that message reveal itself?

00:20:15:21 - 00:20:17:07

Not just God reveal himself,

00:20:17:07 - 00:20:19:09

in the whole redemptive message. So

00:20:19:14 - 00:20:22:08

we feel that if we focus in those five areas,

00:20:22:13 - 00:20:24:05

we've done our best, I think, to

00:20:24:10 - 00:20:30:22

in our limited, finite way, this is our best shot is imparting to our kids a whole council of God.

00:20:30:26 - 00:20:32:17

And and I love the

00:20:32:21 - 00:20:37:20

the different layers you're describing because I think we can

00:20:37:25 - 00:20:45:21

we can miss that or we can simply emphasize the gospel. But but like there's so many pieces to it.

00:20:45:25 - 00:20:47:00

But if you're looking at

00:20:47:04 - 00:20:59:03

18 years where you're really trying to to get that information, and then it's just through repetition and in conversation and building, I think that's that's critical because we have

00:20:59:03 - 00:21:01:17

and we we have a lot of people in our churches who

00:21:01:22 - 00:21:03:02

who just don't have that.

00:21:03:02 - 00:21:05:18

They don't have that understanding of that knowledge.

00:21:05:23 - 00:21:11:00

Yeah. And that's what what we hear again and again from teachers and parents

00:21:11:05 - 00:21:13:07

is I'm so glad

00:21:13:12 - 00:21:16:15

I had the opportunity to teach this because I've learned so much.

00:21:16:20 - 00:21:18:26

I tell pastors, if you really want to get,

00:21:18:26 - 00:21:22:02

your children, your your people theologically grounded,

00:21:22:07 - 00:21:25:10

have them teach in children's ministry, which is something that

00:21:25:15 - 00:21:28:10

was never understood or said before, but

00:21:28:14 - 00:21:30:24

that's the level and which is fine.

00:21:30:24 - 00:21:32:22

Kids love it. Teachers love it.

00:21:32:27 - 00:21:39:04

You know, kids you talk about, you know, it's it's almost a crime if kids get bored in Sunday school

00:21:39:09 - 00:21:46:01

and the the fear is, you know, if you get too heavy on content or if you're trying to teach these deep truths,

00:21:46:06 - 00:21:49:05

the kids are going to get bored. And we found just the opposite.

00:21:49:05 - 00:21:51:24

Kids, I think, are hungry for something

00:21:51:29 - 00:21:53:29

that takes them deeper beneath the

00:21:54:04 - 00:21:54:27

superficial

00:21:55:02 - 00:21:55:10

and

00:21:55:14 - 00:21:57:11

I agree, and I think we've

00:21:57:15 - 00:21:59:14

and I see a to this idea,

00:21:59:14 - 00:22:12:19

it's almost like we're trying to watered down or dumbed down things to, to bring more people. And when the result of that is the opposite of what we want, it's like it's it, it doesn't help it.

00:22:12:19 - 00:22:14:21

It really hurts. Yeah.

00:22:14:25 - 00:22:15:18

If we,

00:22:15:21 - 00:22:18:03

in our ABCs of God curriculum.

00:22:18:07 - 00:22:20:01

And so we teach that in first grade

00:22:20:04 - 00:22:20:18

and,

00:22:20:18 - 00:22:21:26

or early elementary.

00:22:22:01 - 00:22:30:20

And one of the words so it's, it's uses the alphabet and it depicts a word that describes God. One of the words is incomprehensible

00:22:30:24 - 00:22:31:27

to a kindergarten.

00:22:32:02 - 00:22:33:19

And all right, I mean, a first grader.

00:22:33:23 - 00:22:36:03

And it's so fun because these kids

00:22:36:07 - 00:22:37:07

love that word.

00:22:37:12 - 00:22:38:28

Do we hear it again and again?

00:22:39:02 - 00:22:39:26

And they'll go home

00:22:40:01 - 00:22:41:27

and they'll pray at the table. Oh, God,

00:22:42:02 - 00:22:49:02

I thank you that you are incomprehensible. And parents, just where where did you get that?

00:22:49:07 - 00:22:51:24

Oh, we got that in Sunday school. And so

00:22:51:28 - 00:22:53:23

we just fine. Kids do not

00:22:53:28 - 00:22:56:01

shrink from having to learn

00:22:56:05 - 00:22:56:29

deep truth.

00:22:56:29 - 00:22:57:16

Hard true

00:22:57:21 - 00:23:00:20

truth. They respond so positively. We found

00:23:00:25 - 00:23:02:21

a love that I love that,

00:23:02:21 - 00:23:03:01

and

00:23:03:06 - 00:23:10:12

I can just see that, too. I can see those words and those conversations popping up and spurring further conversations,

00:23:10:12 - 00:23:12:19

in the home and where that leads.

00:23:12:22 - 00:23:16:08

So we talk about this transfer of truths.

00:23:16:08 - 00:23:16:28

Is this

00:23:17:03 - 00:23:19:17

an act of the mind only?

00:23:19:17 - 00:23:24:07

So is this simply a transfer of truth and and

00:23:24:11 - 00:23:25:12

knowledge,

00:23:25:17 - 00:23:27:24

or is there more to it than that?

00:23:27:28 - 00:23:30:28

Yeah, that's that's a really good and important question.

00:23:30:28 - 00:23:31:29

I'm still getting

00:23:32:04 - 00:23:38:16

I'm still working with this concept of transfer. And one of the reactions, actually, Sally, my wife

00:23:38:20 - 00:23:41:16

wasn't sure she she liked it because it sounds like

00:23:41:20 - 00:23:42:14

it's more

00:23:42:19 - 00:23:43:18

it's transactional.

00:23:43:18 - 00:23:46:04

Right. You got this content of truth.

00:23:46:09 - 00:23:47:24

Just transfer it.

00:23:47:29 - 00:23:48:14

And

00:23:48:19 - 00:23:55:26

and we we actually like the word discipleship so much better. It's a more biblical word. It's a fuller word.

00:23:56:00 - 00:24:02:17

But so it can you can sound transactional, but we, we emphasize in our teaching

00:24:02:21 - 00:24:03:01

that

00:24:03:06 - 00:24:04:09

you, you must

00:24:04:14 - 00:24:05:20

instruct the mind

00:24:05:24 - 00:24:10:06

and that that fits most with fits with that idea of transit.

00:24:10:11 - 00:24:11:16

We got to get it from

00:24:11:21 - 00:24:13:19

our understanding to theirs.

00:24:13:22 - 00:24:21:26

But you can't. The mind is absolutely important. We will emphasize it. You've got to give them content, substance in their mind.

00:24:22:01 - 00:24:23:14

But if it stays there,

00:24:23:19 - 00:24:27:26

it loses its effectiveness and its power. You want the heart

00:24:28:01 - 00:24:30:27

to engage. So all of our instruction is

00:24:31:02 - 00:24:33:26

aimed at not just the mind but the heart.

00:24:34:00 - 00:24:34:18

So

00:24:34:22 - 00:24:35:02

and then

00:24:35:07 - 00:24:38:00

that it doesn't stay even with the heart,

00:24:38:05 - 00:24:44:24

but it engages the will. It influences the will. So I I'll use an illustration like,

00:24:44:29 - 00:24:52:24

okay, children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. Okay. You can teach that to your children. You can have them memorize it.

00:24:52:29 - 00:24:53:21

If you

00:24:53:26 - 00:24:55:14

ask a child, give them a test.

00:24:55:15 - 00:24:57:07

You know what is their responsibility?

00:24:57:07 - 00:25:00:17

It is to obey my parents. Most children get that,

00:25:00:22 - 00:25:02:01

but it's a,

00:25:02:01 - 00:25:08:13

If it stays just in there. Now, of course, I know I need to obey my parents, but that's not going to work if it just stays in their mind.

00:25:08:18 - 00:25:08:29

They.

00:25:09:03 - 00:25:10:28

We want them to have a will to,

00:25:11:03 - 00:25:12:24

we want them to have a heart to obey.

00:25:12:24 - 00:25:19:03

We want them to want to obey, not just obey out of duty. We want them to want to obey.

00:25:19:07 - 00:25:21:26

And yet that's not enough, right? We

00:25:22:00 - 00:25:22:08

it's

00:25:22:12 - 00:25:22:21

you.

00:25:22:25 - 00:25:33:08

You can say, well, I really wanted to obey, but the point is, you must obey. You have to have a will to obey. And so mind, heart,

00:25:33:13 - 00:25:36:26

God, God is pleased when we have a heart

00:25:37:01 - 00:25:37:14

to

00:25:37:19 - 00:25:39:03

obey the Ten Commandments, right?

00:25:39:03 - 00:25:40:22

Not just will it

00:25:40:27 - 00:25:42:22

or not, just believe it.

00:25:42:26 - 00:25:46:01

Yes, I believe in the Ten Commandments. Yes, I believe that they're good.

00:25:46:06 - 00:25:49:16

No, I want I desire to follow

00:25:49:21 - 00:25:58:25

God's way according to his commandments. And then I must will to walk in obedience. And so that those three

00:25:59:00 - 00:26:02:23

categories of or those three regions of

00:26:02:28 - 00:26:08:05

our souls that we want to try to influence are in mind as we structure our lessons.

00:26:08:05 - 00:26:09:16

So we always want to get

00:26:09:21 - 00:26:10:14

from the head

00:26:10:19 - 00:26:11:06

to the will

00:26:11:11 - 00:26:11:28

through the heart.

00:26:12:03 - 00:26:15:10

And I like that, you know, breaking down like that

00:26:15:15 - 00:26:20:24

and how, you know, it's almost mind first because from the mind, everything else,

00:26:20:29 - 00:26:24:16

you know, then to the heart, then to the well. So how does

00:26:24:21 - 00:26:27:24

how does our example as, as parents, as,

00:26:27:24 - 00:26:35:02

as people in the church, how does this influence, you know, our example, influence this, this transfer of truth and this, this,

00:26:35:02 - 00:26:35:23

discipleship?

00:26:35:27 - 00:26:37:17

Well, for sure.

00:26:37:17 - 00:26:38:02

The

00:26:38:05 - 00:26:43:08

the example that we set for our children is absolutely crucial. And we, you know, don't

00:26:43:12 - 00:26:43:21

you know,

00:26:43:25 - 00:26:44:29

what's the expression,

00:26:44:29 - 00:26:48:08

do as I say, not as I do. So I'm there's this temptation

00:26:48:13 - 00:26:48:22

to

00:26:48:26 - 00:26:51:29

teach all the right things, but we we just know

00:26:52:04 - 00:26:57:17

how children are looking to us more by our example than what we say.

00:26:57:21 - 00:26:59:04

And so it's

00:26:59:09 - 00:27:01:01

it's crucial. What

00:27:01:06 - 00:27:03:24

what I'm saying these days is.

00:27:03:29 - 00:27:12:19

Every parent. So if we're telling the church, everybody in the church should understand this responsibility to transfer truth the next generation.

00:27:12:23 - 00:27:15:04

And you say to the average person in the pew,

00:27:15:04 - 00:27:16:20

what must you do

00:27:16:25 - 00:27:25:26

to facilitate that transfer? You'll hear people say, I brace my kids. Now somebody else's turn to teach the children. And you, you can't say that

00:27:26:01 - 00:27:28:14

this is I understand these texts, this is

00:27:28:18 - 00:27:31:22

this is a responsibility to all Israel.

00:27:31:22 - 00:27:32:14

And so when

00:27:32:19 - 00:27:35:23

when I'm challenging that average person in the pew,

00:27:35:28 - 00:27:37:27

I'm saying there are two things

00:27:38:02 - 00:27:38:17

you

00:27:38:21 - 00:27:40:05

I would challenge you to do.

00:27:40:09 - 00:27:45:01

One, you have no control over.

00:27:45:04 - 00:27:48:12

But you can influence. So and that's your example.

00:27:48:17 - 00:27:50:13

So our children are watching you

00:27:50:18 - 00:27:55:28

and you your example is going to influence them whether you like it or not.

00:27:56:02 - 00:27:59:03

So if you're sitting in worship

00:27:59:07 - 00:28:02:08

looking at your phone while the pastor is preaching,

00:28:02:12 - 00:28:02:24

you're

00:28:02:29 - 00:28:07:28

you're setting an example for that. Should that child down the pew, who's watching you?

00:28:08:03 - 00:28:13:28

And so, church member, be mindful of the example and be intentional with your example.

00:28:14:02 - 00:28:18:25

You know, realize that there are children around you that they're watching you. And

00:28:18:29 - 00:28:21:17

be be intentional with your example. So

00:28:21:22 - 00:28:27:07

be an example to the next generation of the kind of people we want them to become.

00:28:27:12 - 00:28:29:14

So that I can say to

00:28:29:19 - 00:28:30:02

any

00:28:30:06 - 00:28:31:12

child in this church,

00:28:31:12 - 00:28:32:24

see Mr. Smith over there,

00:28:32:29 - 00:28:34:05

be a man like him,

00:28:34:10 - 00:28:37:19

or to a young woman, you should desire a husband.

00:28:37:19 - 00:28:41:24

See how he cares for his wife. You should desire a husband like that.

00:28:41:29 - 00:28:46:12

And so I'll say, be the kind of person that I could point to and say,

00:28:46:16 - 00:28:49:00

little child, follow that person's example.

00:28:49:05 - 00:28:51:15

And the second piece is

00:28:51:20 - 00:28:52:18

pray. And

00:28:52:23 - 00:28:54:08

again, these days I'm,

00:28:54:12 - 00:28:57:00

I'm dreaming of what could happen

00:28:57:04 - 00:28:59:14

in a church if everybody in the church

00:28:59:18 - 00:29:01:23

took 15 minutes a week

00:29:01:28 - 00:29:02:18

to pray

00:29:02:22 - 00:29:08:09

for the next generation in their sphere, so it could be the kids in their Sunday school classes.

00:29:08:09 - 00:29:11:01

The kids growing up, the church. It could be

00:29:11:06 - 00:29:13:03

children in your neighborhood, your own

00:29:13:08 - 00:29:19:25

children, grandchildren. But take 15 minutes a week and focus on the next generation

00:29:19:29 - 00:29:20:12

and,

00:29:20:12 - 00:29:23:17

the people who are serving the next generation.

00:29:23:21 - 00:29:25:09

That's three minutes a day

00:29:25:14 - 00:29:27:16

with two days off on the weekends.

00:29:27:21 - 00:29:31:12

It's it's not a yes, but I think mountains could move

00:29:31:17 - 00:29:31:26

them

00:29:32:00 - 00:29:32:14

if

00:29:32:19 - 00:29:34:02

if people would just

00:29:34:07 - 00:29:36:10

take that challenge and say, this is my

00:29:36:15 - 00:29:37:12

contribution

00:29:37:16 - 00:29:43:27

to facilitate this transfer, I just I get excited, think about what God might be pleased

00:29:43:27 - 00:29:45:13

that I love that.

00:29:45:21 - 00:29:47:15

And in both of those, because again, you

00:29:47:20 - 00:29:50:12

kind of what we were talking about earlier, you're talking about practical,

00:29:50:12 - 00:29:52:06

practical steps that can be done,

00:29:52:11 - 00:29:53:16

things that that

00:29:53:21 - 00:29:55:15

can be implemented today.

00:29:55:20 - 00:29:56:28

Right. This is like

00:29:57:02 - 00:29:59:24

and anybody in the church can do it lead by example

00:29:59:29 - 00:30:01:10

and pray for these,

00:30:01:12 - 00:30:03:13

pray for these ministries. Pray for these children.

00:30:03:18 - 00:30:05:09

Pray that that God would

00:30:05:13 - 00:30:07:12

work mightily in their lives. Yeah.

00:30:07:17 - 00:30:07:28

Yes.

00:30:08:03 - 00:30:09:02

And so

00:30:09:06 - 00:30:11:01

the thinking of church is kind of

00:30:11:06 - 00:30:12:17

and church leadership.

00:30:12:22 - 00:30:17:23

What's like one thing that that church leadership can do to get everybody

00:30:17:27 - 00:30:20:11

moving in the same direction on this,

00:30:20:16 - 00:30:22:19

this I, you know, in terms of

00:30:22:23 - 00:30:37:06

it really equipping them with his vision for this transferring of truth to the next generation so that they, in turn, can transfer truths to the next generation, like what's what's kind of step one in that process for church leadership?

00:30:37:06 - 00:30:38:06

If if they're like,

00:30:38:11 - 00:30:38:27

man,

00:30:39:01 - 00:30:41:25

I've never really articulated it this way before.

00:30:41:29 - 00:30:49:12

Yeah. So yeah, the first church leadership is key. And so our first step is to work with the church leadership

00:30:49:17 - 00:30:50:28

and help them

00:30:51:03 - 00:30:51:26

understand

00:30:52:01 - 00:30:54:23

the basic responsibility that they have. So

00:30:54:28 - 00:30:55:13

again,

00:30:55:19 - 00:30:57:27

children's ministry people value it

00:30:58:02 - 00:30:58:16

and

00:30:58:21 - 00:31:01:14

see it's important for various reasons.

00:31:01:19 - 00:31:02:06

So,

00:31:02:06 - 00:31:03:07

for pastors,

00:31:03:12 - 00:31:06:12

many of them understand the importance of children's ministry,

00:31:06:15 - 00:31:08:04

for the functioning of the church.

00:31:08:09 - 00:31:12:15

You know, if you want to attract families into your church, you need to have

00:31:12:20 - 00:31:15:12

a strong children's ministry. And so

00:31:15:17 - 00:31:24:17

we'll find yeah, almost every pastor that has children's ministry understands its importance. I'll say yes, it's important not as many

00:31:24:21 - 00:31:26:07

think, in terms of

00:31:26:12 - 00:31:33:10

just the discipleship responsibility. So often when you think about we're going to start a discipleship ministry in this church,

00:31:33:14 - 00:31:36:15

most of the time that relates to adults,

00:31:36:19 - 00:31:38:28

they don't think of what's going on in the nursery

00:31:39:03 - 00:31:39:14

as

00:31:39:18 - 00:31:40:09

discipleship.

00:31:40:13 - 00:31:42:05

When parents drop their children off

00:31:42:10 - 00:31:43:16

at Sunday school,

00:31:43:21 - 00:31:51:09

they're not thinking, I am entrusting my children to these people, these discipleship that mature. They're taking care of my kids so that I can go

00:31:51:14 - 00:31:52:21

and worship with,

00:31:52:26 - 00:32:00:18

with some without distraction. And pastors are saying, yeah, we don't need the distraction of children in the church. We must have a nursery.

00:32:00:23 - 00:32:01:07

So

00:32:01:11 - 00:32:02:08

getting people

00:32:02:13 - 00:32:07:03

the leadership to understand and to embrace this responsibility

00:32:07:07 - 00:32:08:05

to transfer

00:32:08:09 - 00:32:08:27

truth,

00:32:08:27 - 00:32:14:06

we again have some tools that can help infuse that in church. I wrote this little book called

00:32:14:11 - 00:32:19:03

zealous seven commitments for the Comprehensive Discipleship of the Next Generation.

00:32:19:08 - 00:32:20:25

And if I can encourage,

00:32:21:00 - 00:32:23:00

like Sunday School teachers,

00:32:23:05 - 00:32:28:13

maybe to group up, there's a little study guide that goes with it, work through that, ask questions.

00:32:28:13 - 00:32:29:02

How does this,

00:32:29:06 - 00:32:30:13

how does this truth,

00:32:30:13 - 00:32:36:09

what are the implications for our church? How should we respond to this? If I could get a group of elders

00:32:36:12 - 00:32:41:24

to go through a book like that so that we're getting everybody on the same page

00:32:41:28 - 00:32:44:17

of what children's Ministry is and

00:32:44:22 - 00:32:45:21

why it exists,

00:32:45:26 - 00:32:46:19

I mean, it's,

00:32:46:24 - 00:32:48:05

you know, and don't hear that

00:32:48:10 - 00:32:48:27

as

00:32:49:02 - 00:32:54:25

if you think children's ministry is important because you you want to draw families to your church.

00:32:54:25 - 00:32:55:25

That's a good reason.

00:32:55:29 - 00:32:58:29

It's just secondary. It's not the primary reason.

00:32:59:04 - 00:33:04:25

And if if what secondary moves to the primary function, that's where

00:33:04:29 - 00:33:07:25

all kinds of problems can start happening. So

00:33:08:00 - 00:33:09:19

helping people to understand

00:33:09:23 - 00:33:10:08

that,

00:33:10:08 - 00:33:12:10

getting leadership on board, getting,

00:33:12:15 - 00:33:13:15

Leadership from

00:33:13:20 - 00:33:18:28

top leader, top tier leadership through the, you know, the Sunday school

00:33:19:03 - 00:33:21:27

youth ministry, family ministry of the church.

00:33:22:02 - 00:33:24:05

That's where we like to start. And then

00:33:24:10 - 00:33:27:04

I'm working with two churches right now

00:33:27:09 - 00:33:28:21

and just put that challenge.

00:33:28:26 - 00:33:36:25

I said, okay, let's make it our goal that next year at this time, if I walked into your church, I want to be able to ask anybody that I come in,

00:33:36:29 - 00:33:41:23

I bump into what is the primary reason for children's ministry in the church.

00:33:41:28 - 00:33:48:06

I'd like them to be able to all give me the same answer. Okay, so that's the goal. What do we have to do to get there?

00:33:48:11 - 00:33:48:24

And

00:33:48:29 - 00:33:49:21

you know, some,

00:33:49:21 - 00:33:51:22

one one of the pastors did a

00:33:51:26 - 00:33:54:01

like a six week preaching series

00:33:54:06 - 00:33:56:01

on reaching the next generation.

00:33:56:01 - 00:33:56:17

We should have,

00:33:56:17 - 00:34:02:23

where other opportunities, like I mentioned, these parenting classes that we did for years pre dedication.

00:34:02:23 - 00:34:08:02

That's another way to try to just get parents on board. Moms meetings,

00:34:08:07 - 00:34:08:21

youth

00:34:08:26 - 00:34:11:02

leadership meeting. I pull dads together.

00:34:11:02 - 00:34:22:16

So all the dads of first graders in the church, if it's a big church or all the dads of ours with kids in Sunday school, let's get together for breakfast and I can unpack that. So look for opportunities.

00:34:22:16 - 00:34:24:04

You have to be able to

00:34:24:08 - 00:34:25:24

just instill that basic truth

00:34:25:28 - 00:34:28:04

I love I love that and just

00:34:28:12 - 00:34:30:29

different ways that that leadership can

00:34:31:03 - 00:34:33:23

can begin teaching this. And equipping,

00:34:33:23 - 00:34:37:04

the people in the church. So what happens if

00:34:37:09 - 00:34:39:03

what can people do if, let's say,

00:34:39:08 - 00:34:45:14

maybe their church and their leadership really does it doesn't understand this or maybe does it prioritize this?

00:34:45:16 - 00:34:50:07

So what can what can people in the church do to kind of help foster this,

00:34:50:07 - 00:34:51:26

and sort of build this?

00:34:52:00 - 00:34:55:25

Yeah, I would and there's a number of people in that situation.

00:34:56:00 - 00:34:56:17

So

00:34:56:22 - 00:34:59:02

we encourage people to be faithful

00:34:59:07 - 00:34:59:26

with,

00:34:59:26 - 00:35:03:26

the net within the networks that they do have access to. So if you're a

00:35:04:00 - 00:35:05:06

Sunday school teacher,

00:35:05:06 - 00:35:11:29

can you advocate within that Sunday school class or can you just begin teaching faithfully?

00:35:12:04 - 00:35:13:02

These truths?

00:35:13:02 - 00:35:13:14

So

00:35:13:19 - 00:35:16:17

because my leadership doesn't yet by in

00:35:16:22 - 00:35:20:15

is not necessarily reason to just say, well, we can't do anything.

00:35:20:17 - 00:35:21:03

So,

00:35:21:03 - 00:35:21:23

another

00:35:21:28 - 00:35:26:24

key strategy for us is, okay, if you can't work directly

00:35:26:29 - 00:35:28:11

with the leadership to get

00:35:28:16 - 00:35:34:29

the programing around you, you can begin to encourage individual parents. That's really where we started

00:35:35:04 - 00:35:37:05

years ago at Bethlehem.

00:35:37:08 - 00:35:37:24

We were,

00:35:37:27 - 00:35:42:23

I was in a completely different role. I was over outreach, neighborhood outreach, and

00:35:42:27 - 00:35:45:05

my colleague was for children's ministry.

00:35:45:07 - 00:35:46:03

We could say,

00:35:46:03 - 00:35:47:10

some things, but it was

00:35:47:15 - 00:35:48:14

for us to try to

00:35:48:19 - 00:35:50:22

speak into the children's ministry

00:35:50:27 - 00:35:55:16

and challenge the that existing leadership would not have been appropriate.

00:35:55:21 - 00:35:58:05

But we just began meeting

00:35:58:10 - 00:36:01:07

with parents. I offered a little seminar,

00:36:01:12 - 00:36:05:08

nurturing the Faith of our children. That was a seminar which

00:36:05:13 - 00:36:09:18

the church was very happy for us to teach and began to instill these ideas in parents.

00:36:09:18 - 00:36:09:27

So

00:36:10:02 - 00:36:14:15

if you can't move the whole church, let's start with individual parents. Give them some tools

00:36:14:20 - 00:36:17:14

to help them begin doing this at home

00:36:17:19 - 00:36:18:20

and support them in it.

00:36:18:25 - 00:36:21:10

I love that that and that. I think,

00:36:21:15 - 00:36:24:19

you know, we've got both sides of it. You we're speaking to leadership. We're speaking to

00:36:24:24 - 00:36:31:05

to families in the church. So if you're listening like this is something anybody can do, these are just conversations you can have.

00:36:31:05 - 00:36:32:23

And to build those relationships,

00:36:32:23 - 00:36:42:28

as we wrap up, I any last I'll call it encouragement or challenge that you would like to to leave with the audience, you know, in terms of,

00:36:43:02 - 00:36:49:16

this transfer of truth to the next generation of what, what next generation ministry looks like and could be.

00:36:49:21 - 00:36:56:20

But I'd like to go back to the prayer thing, because ultimately you can have great curriculum, which we can offer,

00:36:56:20 - 00:36:58:22

you you can have a,

00:36:58:27 - 00:37:01:00

a leadership all on board.

00:37:01:02 - 00:37:04:28

You can have the perfect structure in your church. You could have every parent,

00:37:04:28 - 00:37:06:08

being very intentional.

00:37:06:12 - 00:37:09:20

But unless God moves on the heart of these children,

00:37:09:24 - 00:37:11:00

all of this is and they

00:37:11:04 - 00:37:12:10

and that's why we,

00:37:12:14 - 00:37:15:16

you know, John Piper used to tell us years ago,

00:37:15:21 - 00:37:19:16

prayer is the engine that drives the ministry of this church.

00:37:19:21 - 00:37:20:06

And

00:37:20:09 - 00:37:26:08

I just say, I've taken that and I just prayer is the engine that drives through 78 ministry.

00:37:26:13 - 00:37:33:19

Prayer is the engine that drives children's ministry. And your church prayer is the engine that drives the effectiveness of your parents. So

00:37:33:24 - 00:37:35:12

we we really want to

00:37:35:17 - 00:37:37:12

challenge and encourage parents

00:37:37:16 - 00:37:38:09

to pray.

00:37:38:14 - 00:37:43:17

And I think that part of our role in the church is to equip parents

00:37:43:22 - 00:37:44:12

to pray.

00:37:44:17 - 00:37:47:04

I, I hear many parents say,

00:37:47:09 - 00:37:50:11

or grandparents now, given my age,

00:37:50:11 - 00:37:51:13

I pray for my children.

00:37:51:13 - 00:37:53:16

I pray for my grandchildren all the time,

00:37:53:20 - 00:37:54:17

and I want to

00:37:54:21 - 00:37:55:16

challenge

00:37:55:21 - 00:38:02:14

and encourage. I wrote this little book called Big, Bold Biblical Prayers for the Next Generation.

00:38:02:18 - 00:38:07:03

I think a lot of times we pray wimpy prayers for children.

00:38:07:08 - 00:38:10:21

Let's pray biblical prayers. And so

00:38:10:26 - 00:38:11:22

if you pray,

00:38:11:22 - 00:38:14:12

Lord Jesus, please help my child to have a good day

00:38:14:17 - 00:38:16:24

or the children in our Sunday School class.

00:38:16:24 - 00:38:18:09

Help them to have a good day today.

00:38:18:13 - 00:38:19:10

Keep them safe.

00:38:19:15 - 00:38:26:00

Lead guide and direct them. Those are good prayers. There's. You know, I don't want to criticize the prayer,

00:38:26:05 - 00:38:26:15

but

00:38:26:20 - 00:38:29:29

it's hard for me to pray with confidence,

00:38:30:04 - 00:38:30:12

help

00:38:30:17 - 00:38:35:11

my granddaughter Katie to have a good day, because there's nowhere in my Bible

00:38:35:16 - 00:38:40:13

that I can find that guarantees that if I pray and ask God to give Katie a good day,

00:38:40:17 - 00:38:41:21

she's going to have a good day.

00:38:41:26 - 00:38:44:09

In fact, we've got lots of examples

00:38:44:14 - 00:38:47:04

in the Bible where people did not have a good day

00:38:47:08 - 00:38:51:05

by the divine, sovereign purposes of God,

00:38:51:09 - 00:38:55:23

so that he could teach them deeper things. They may have a horrible day

00:38:55:27 - 00:38:58:07

so that they might learn to depend on God.

00:38:58:11 - 00:39:01:01

So it's hard for me to take that one to the bank.

00:39:01:06 - 00:39:02:23

But another prayer

00:39:02:27 - 00:39:04:03

I think of what Jesus

00:39:04:08 - 00:39:08:03

prayed for his disciple Peter on the night before he was.

00:39:08:08 - 00:39:08:27

He was,

00:39:08:27 - 00:39:10:16

crucified. He said,

00:39:10:21 - 00:39:14:27

Peter, Satan has demanded to have you to sift you like wheat.

00:39:15:02 - 00:39:16:22

But I have prayed for you

00:39:16:27 - 00:39:19:07

that your faith will not fail.

00:39:19:12 - 00:39:19:17

Now

00:39:19:22 - 00:39:21:13

take a step back from that and say,

00:39:21:18 - 00:39:25:08

wow, Jesus. Just a few chapters earlier

00:39:25:13 - 00:39:25:26

said,

00:39:26:00 - 00:39:28:17

CFS, I'm calling you Peter

00:39:28:22 - 00:39:33:28

the Rock. And on this rock I'm going to build my church, and the gates of hell will not

00:39:34:02 - 00:39:35:12

prevail against you,

00:39:35:17 - 00:39:36:05

against it.

00:39:36:09 - 00:39:38:00

Why did Jesus have to pray

00:39:38:05 - 00:39:40:07

that Peter's faith would not fail?

00:39:40:12 - 00:39:42:29

Why did Jesus, knowing that Satan,

00:39:43:03 - 00:39:46:03

has demanded to have him to sift him like wheat?

00:39:46:08 - 00:39:47:07

Why was Jesus

00:39:47:11 - 00:39:53:08

compelled to pray? He knew the gates of hell would not prevail against him. Why did he pray?

00:39:53:13 - 00:39:59:27

And the reason is because Jesus understood that God moves in response to the prayers of his people.

00:40:00:02 - 00:40:01:24

So when I pray for my

00:40:01:29 - 00:40:02:23

two daughters

00:40:02:28 - 00:40:03:28

and my grandchildren,

00:40:04:03 - 00:40:10:15

I pray, God, would you grant that their faith not fail to him?

00:40:10:20 - 00:40:15:00

And if they are in Christ, I know absolutely

00:40:15:04 - 00:40:21:18

that their faith will not fail. God is guaranteed that they will. And yet he calls me to pray,

00:40:21:22 - 00:40:22:17

or my

00:40:22:22 - 00:40:25:01

my neighbor who's not a believer.

00:40:25:03 - 00:40:27:23

And I pray, Lord, would you grant that his

00:40:27:28 - 00:40:29:00

knee will bow

00:40:29:05 - 00:40:35:09

and his tongue will confess you as Lord? I know I'm praying God's will, and I know that's going to happen.

00:40:35:13 - 00:40:44:27

And I say, Lord, would you just make it happen sooner rather than later for my neighbor? I want to see that knee bow before I take my last breath or he does

00:40:45:02 - 00:40:46:15

so, so pray

00:40:46:19 - 00:40:49:03

and and mountains will move.

00:40:49:07 - 00:40:54:24

And I appreciate that. And I need that reminder too. And I know, I know the audience does as well.

00:40:54:24 - 00:40:57:21

Because we get so caught up in the doing of stuff

00:40:57:26 - 00:41:05:13

that we forget the, the best doing and most effective doing that we can do is prayer. Right?

00:41:05:18 - 00:41:06:08

Right. For sure.

00:41:06:13 - 00:41:06:23

So

00:41:06:28 - 00:41:14:07

if people want to know more about truth 78 and what you guys are doing there and your resources, where would you like him to go?

00:41:14:11 - 00:41:14:25

Well,

00:41:14:25 - 00:41:16:17

great place to start would be,

00:41:16:17 - 00:41:18:29

true. 78.org.

00:41:18:29 - 00:41:28:05

There you can see all of our resources, sample lessons. There's seminars and teaching of various kinds and lots of resources

00:41:28:10 - 00:41:29:01

really,

00:41:29:04 - 00:41:33:14

to support the church and the home for the discipleship of their children.

00:41:33:19 - 00:41:35:19

Excellent. So, truth 78,

00:41:35:19 - 00:41:40:21

moreover, a drop that the show notes. Make sure to check it out, get some of the resources.

00:41:40:23 - 00:41:42:01

I highly recommend them.

00:41:42:01 - 00:41:42:20

This has been,

00:41:42:20 - 00:41:46:19

a wonderful conversation. I appreciate everything you shared, and I just appreciate

00:41:46:19 - 00:41:55:11

you taking the time today to to join us. Well, it truly has been a pleasure, and I really appreciate having a chance just to talk about what I love to talk about.

00:41:55:11 - 00:41:55:27

I love it.