Hiking without a stitch

EP. 12 - Don’t Be Scared of the Experience with Mike

• Jonathan Norman

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Episode 12 — Don’t Be Scared of the Experience

In this episode, I’m sitting down with Mike from Tucson, Arizona — an avid hiker who shares his personal journey into social, non-sexual nudity and how it’s changed the way he experiences the outdoors.

What started as a moment of curiosity at Tanque Verde Falls turned into something much deeper — a shift in mindset, a new level of connection with nature, and a better understanding of himself.

We talk about navigating different encounters out on the trail, breaking through common misconceptions, and what it really looks like to approach this lifestyle with respect, boundaries, and patience — especially within a relationship.

Mike also shares the mental and emotional benefits he’s experienced, along with simple advice for anyone who’s curious but unsure where to start.

This conversation is real, relatable, and grounded in what this is actually about — respect, openness, and reconnecting with something natural.


Get NAKED + Be Free + Be Kind

Follow the journey on Instagram: @HikingWithoutAStitch

SPEAKER_00

Welcome back to hiking without a stitch. Alright, I'll turn my turn towards trail and conversation with others who have found freedom in the open air. How's it going everyone? Welcome back to hiking without a stitch. I'm your host, John. If you're new here, this show is all about getting outside, reconnecting with nature, and having real conversations about non-sexual nudity. What it is, what it isn't, and what it can actually do for your life. On today's episode, it's a real good one. I sit down with Mike. He's an avid hiker from Tucson, Arizona, and someone who found his way into this way of life in a really relatable way. It came from a moment of being out at Tank Verde Falls, seeing something new, and instead of walking away, he chose to lean into it with curiosity. And that one decision led to a completely different way of experiencing nature. Enjoy. Mike, welcome to the show. Thank you for being here. I really appreciate you popping on and uh taking the time to have this conversation.

SPEAKER_01

Of course, I'm I'm glad to be on here.

SPEAKER_00

Do you want to just kind of start off by telling people just a little bit about yourself and um how outdoors you are or kind of what you do for fun?

SPEAKER_01

Uh sure. So uh my name is Mike. Uh pretty much grew up in Tucson. Uh been here my whole life. Um definitely big on the outdoors. Uh love hiking, biking. Uh recently got back into running. Uh I'm not a big fan of running, but you know, it's good exercise, so I think it gets me outdoors. Uh been doing some trail runs, so that's always great. Um, but yeah, I've always been big on uh uh nature and just being outdoors.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, that's awesome. Um how long have you been doing trail running? Is that like a recent, more more recent thing? Yeah, that's a more recent thing.

SPEAKER_01

Like I said, um growing up because of sports, I've always done running. Um and uh I had an ankle dege ankle injury uh last year, and part of the rehab was you know walking. And then after I got into walking, got into jogging again, I'm like, you know what? Uh it's something I've always loved doing. Um, and so I was like, you know what, I'm gonna get back into it. Um, and so I signed up for a race, not knowing it was a trail run. And then once I realized oh, it's a trail run, well then I I gotta hit the trails, and yeah, you know, it's part of hiking, you know, you're out the trails anyway, so it was it was a good transition there.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, that's awesome. And has that been like a challenge kind of getting into that? I've I've thought about doing trail running because it looks fun.

SPEAKER_01

Uh uh, not not too much of a challenge. Uh, I think the biggest thing is um picking what trails to do because some trails obviously aren't really meant for running. Gotcha. Uh, especially if they're really rocky and a lot of elevation, it can be quite challenging. Yeah, I think. So kind of mapping out the the trails beforehand is probably the only real challenge.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, cool. Um, how uh how is nudity treated in your household growing up?

SPEAKER_01

So growing up, it was I mean, I it wasn't really addressed, but it wasn't it wasn't an issue. Like my my parents are old hippies, so you know, the whole uh body acceptance and free love and just being out there. So growing up, I was my mom walking around nude, and it it was natural, you know, it was it wasn't a big thing. And us as kids too, it was it was encouraged, like, hey, if you're comfortable, do it, you know, it's it's your body, own it. Um, and so it was never an issue um around the house. And then obviously outside of the house, it's like, yeah, it's it's not accepted outside of the house, so we'll close when we're out of the house.

SPEAKER_00

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's really cool that you got that upbringing. Um because a lot I I wish more people would get that upbringing. Yeah, definitely. We'd have less less uh problems and mental health problems if if we did. Um did you ever have like a desire growing up to go nude hiking or skinny dipping or to a nude beach? Well, not not really.

SPEAKER_01

I mean like I said, it was just inside the home. Outside it was never a thing. And I mean, you get into that that those teenage years where you're out and and you're out with friends and you hit a a lake or something, and I think I maybe went skinny dipping one time. It was just a spur-of-the-moment thing, and it was exciting. And then after that, it just I I don't want to say it was in the back of my head, but it's one of those things where you you kind of think about it from time to time, or you hear somebody went to a beach and you're like, oh, oh, that would have been so awesome. Like it's always there, but maybe you just don't take that leap.

SPEAKER_00

No, yeah, totally. That's that's exactly you're you hear about it, you you have that intrigue and that curiosity to go try it. What was your first like non-sexual nudity experience?

SPEAKER_01

So my first one would be probably like I said, in in in high school, I think maybe my senior year. Um happened to go out on a hike uh with my girlfriend, and we came upon a stream and it it just it just happened. We did it, and it was it was just out us out there being ourselves, having fun, enjoying nature. You know, we didn't want to get our clothes wet because we were gonna have to hike back in it. So we stripped down and we got into the little stream or creek or whatever, and then you know, that was it. And it was totally just for the moment. You know, you would think, yeah, being teenagers, it would be a sexual thing, but it it wasn't for us. It was just we wanted to get in the water and and enjoy nature.

SPEAKER_00

That's so cool. What a great first experience.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And then after that, it it wasn't again until recently, this last summer. Um, you know, I I've always been into hiking, and there's there's trails everywhere, you know, everywhere in southern Arizona. And uh Tanker Verdi Falls was just one that had had skipped or missed my mind for the whole time I've been here. I had heard about it, and I was like, yeah, I gotta get up there at some point. And it just happened uh a co-worker mentioned, hey, I was gonna go out hiking out there. Have you heard of it? I'm like, you know what? I've heard of it, but I've never been. And you know what? I'm gonna try it out pretty soon. So I I put it down and said, hey, Tanker Riddy Falls, I gotta get up there. And I happened to go out there. Uh luckily, um, it was during monsoon season, so there was some water up there. And I mean, it was it was beautiful. I had never seen the water running like that up there. I'd been up to uh Sabino Canyon, but never Tanker Ruddy Falls. Um, you know, yeah, when you get to the trailhead, you know, you see the signs right off the bat that says, hey, clothing optional, optional. Uh you may encounter nude hikers, you know. And so I I was ready for it. I had heard that, and I was like, oh yeah, that's right. This this might be a thing up here. So, you know, I do the hike, I get up there to the little lookout point before you hit the beach. And there was an older couple that were clothed, and there were some ladies down there, and I'm like, okay, I'm not sure if this is it or not, but let's go down there. So I go down there and I'm I'm captivated by the water. It's just beautiful. So I take some pictures and I'm looking around, and uh the old guy from the couple goes, Hey man, you're gonna get in the water. I'm like, I'm thinking about it because it was it was nice and hot, you know. And all of a sudden he strips down, his wife strips down, and they get in the water, and I'm like, Oh, I'm like, okay, this is this is it. And I hadn't planned on it, you know. It was just one of those things where I'm here, I want to experience it, you know. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so I stripped down, and I mean, man, I don't know when when I hit that water, it was just it was a great feeling. Yeah, you know, you you I don't know how to describe that feeling of just you know the the water hitting your body and you don't have that barrier of clothing on, which sounds silly, you know. It's like you shower or you take a bath with no clothes, like why my why am I swimming with clothes on? Yeah, exactly. And it it was just a great experience, you know, no pressure. Uh I just got in the water, hung out for a little bit, and then after a while I got dressed. I said, you know what? I'm gonna continue on exploring these trails because there's trail tons of trails out there. So that was my first, I guess, real social experience with with strangers. Uh, but it was great.

SPEAKER_00

That's awesome. What uh what about that experience kind of made you want to keep coming back to it? I guess the draw for you.

SPEAKER_01

It's just it's it's a feeling of just freedom, just no no restraints, nothing holding you back. It's just it's just me and the elements out there, you know. Um when I get out there, and now I'm to the point where you know, once I get do the hike, I've gone there quite a few times now. And when I get to that little lookout point, I'll I'll look over and because it's one of those things where um, you know, if I see families with kids and I'm I'm kind of cautious, like I don't want to strip down or walk down there right away. So I'll take a look, and if there's other nude people or there's nobody down there, then I strip down there and then I finish the hike nude. Yeah. And you know, I'll I'll I'll explore a little bit. If there's water, definitely get in the water because it's great. And it's just this this connection with with nature and just the whole grounding aspect of it, you know. Uh my wife is real big on she's a real spiritual person, and she's big on, you know, taking off your shoes and walking barefoot and grounding. And I mean, what's what's more grounded than being totally noob sitting on a beach, you know, soaking up the sun.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah, you're it's uh it's an immersive experience, and that canyon's super the whole vibe of that canyon's amazing. Um it's actually really funny because that's where you and I met uh on the beach when my family and I came down that day. Uh you were there and then we just started kind of like talking and then you connected with me on Instagram. But that uh that canyon's super unique and special.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And and every time I go there, it's uh it's it's its own unique experience, you know, because I mean you see regulars down there. I I've met a couple of guys that are down there pretty regularly that uh, hey, how you doing? You know, but almost every time I go down there, there's also new groups of people, new couples, new families. And like every experience I've had so far has has been pretty good, you know, and and everybody's down there doing their own thing. You know, if if people aren't really about being social about it, they walk farther up and they find their own little spot. Um, and then usually I notice that people that hang out right there by the beach are a little more social and then just there to hang out and maybe you chat up, uh start a little conversation and get to know each other, but it's everybody's just out there doing their own thing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, it really provides a good place for people to have that experience of something different and natural in a safe, no pressure way. So I it I I agree with you. It's really cool seeing new people there and new families because I've had similar experience that I'm seeing more new faces there when I go, which is awesome because we want more representation and people using nature and nudity for health benefits. Yeah, of course. Have you ever gone uh like nude hiking or skinny dipping anywhere other than Tank Verde recently, or do you plan to?

SPEAKER_01

Not recently. I've I'm I'm a little apprehensive about it. Uh so I've been listening to your blog, your your well, yeah, it's a podcast. Um and I'm a little hesitant about you know hitting those uh BLM lands or trust lands or whatever. Um mostly because of my work. Yep. And so it's like if if any issue was to come up, you know, a legal issue while I was out, that could affect my work, and I'm like, uh I'm not I'm not there yet. That's totally understandable. So yeah, I think valid reason. Yeah, that's that's the major motivation for just keeping it right there, tankerie for now.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's a it's a good spot. Yeah. Do you uh so you said your does your wife go with you?

SPEAKER_01

So she she's gone a couple times. She's not as big into it as I am. Um so after that first uh experience when I when I told her, hey, listen, uh I'm I'm you know, honest with her, I'm straightforward. You know, as soon as they happened, I said, hey, this is something I'm gonna mention to my wife because I'm not I'm not gonna keep it from her. So I told her what happened, and she goes, So you were totally nude around these people. I'm like, yeah, it was I was out there just enjoying it. And so I could tell she was kind of taken back a little bit, like, wait a minute, you were out there naked with other people. And I said, Yeah, and I had to explain her, it's it's not not a sexual thing at all. Like, I was out there doing my own thing, I was I was grounding, I was in nature, like, and I said, you know, I'd like to take you out there. I I really think you would like it. Uh, if you're gonna love the scenery, it's it's gonna be great. So we went out there uh a couple weeks later, and like I said, luckily during monsoon season, as long as there's there's rain, that water is flowing, so it was great. So we went out there and uh saw a couple people on the trail, and then she was like, Okay, I see what they're saying. Like, yeah, it's definitely clothing optional. Um, so I said, I'm we're I said we're gonna go off of your comfort level. If you don't want to be down at the beach, if there's a lot of people, we can find a spot, which is what we did. We went a little bit higher up, we found our own little spot, and I said, Look, I'm I'm gonna go ahead and take my clothes off. I mean it's my wife. I'm like, we're out of the open if you're okay with it. She's like, Yeah, totally. And I said, Don't don't feel pressured. If if you're not comfortable getting undressed or anything, you know, you don't have to. She goes, Yeah, that's fine. So she had a bathing suit on the first time, and and you know, we did our thing and it was great. We happened to go back uh like a week later, found a different spot, and we're getting in the water, and she goes, You know what? This is silly, like this is my body, you're my husband, we're out here. So she took her top off. And so she's she's getting a little bit more comfortable. Um, but like I said, it's more of a private thing for us. So we'll go find a more secluded little pool and we'll just do our own thing there together. Um I mean, I I think eventually if she feels like it one day we can head down to the beach where there's more people, whatever. But like I told her, that there's no pressure whatsoever. It's it's your comfort level, and then we just go out there and have a good time.

SPEAKER_00

That's that's really awesome, and I like the way that you went about doing that. Um it shows that it's not about pressure and that you care about her boundaries, and it's not about convincing her to do anything outside of her comfort zone and keeping that respect and consent kind of in you know, her court to choose, and you guys moving up and down to different uh watering holes, kind of more private to experience that. That's awesome. That's exactly what it's all about. You don't the experience of being naked in nature doesn't have to look one way, I guess. You know, yeah, you can make it however you want that experience to look. What benefits have you noticed mentally or emotionally, um, that you get from being nude in nature?

SPEAKER_01

So mentally it's it's just uh like a relief, and you just feel so relaxed. You know, sometimes uh I I would have a tough work week, and I'm just like, man, you know what? I can't wait for my weekend, and I'm gonna I don't know if there's any water flowing, but I just want to get out there and and just be free, you know. That's what it is. And so you get out there and you know, it's always great to see water. I've been out there a couple times where there was no water, yeah. And you still see people hiking uh nude, which is that's great, you know, just be out there and enjoy the freedom. And so I get out there and and it, you know, it's one of those things where you just you can't explain it, but the minute you strip down and that sun hits you, or that you get you you hike up to a top part, and that that wind just hits your whole whole body. I mean, it's just it's it's magical, you know. I don't I don't know how to explain it, but and it just it's all those worries, all that stress, it just you forget about it. You're in that moment and you're just you're just there soaking up the sun, just taking it all in.

SPEAKER_00

No, that's a great answer. What do you think people get completely wrong about social nudity or like going to places like Tanka Verde Falls uh when they first hear about it or kind of see signs that you know there's gonna be nudity coming?

SPEAKER_01

So I I think the biggest thing that people probably or the biggest misconception is and you've said it multiple times is that it's a it's a sexual thing. Because it really isn't. Um everybody's just out there to hang out and be free. Um it's totally non sexual. I've heard people say that yeah, things go on, but people that are out there to do that are they're hiding out there. They know it's they shouldn't be doing it in in public, so they'll go find their own little secluded area to do their own thing, you know? Yeah. Which I mean, good for them. Don't don't bring it over here because it and it kind of puts a stigma on us.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

Where we're we're not there for that.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

Um and also the whole thing about, you know, I I hope people don't think that when they see a sign that says, you know, clothing optional or nude, that they would feel pressured to like, oh, well, if I want to be down there, I'm gonna have to strip down. Like, not at all. There's plenty there's plenty of times where there's clothed people laying out right next to nude people, you know, and it it's it's at your own comfort. Like nobody's gonna force you to do anything, you know, and nobody's gonna judge you if you decide, you know what, I don't want to strip down.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

I've I've talked to uh uh couple of guys that I've seen down there, and uh so that little lookout spot right before you hit the beach, I guess some a lot of people refer to it as uh decision point. Decision point, I love that because I I've noticed a lot of people hike down there, they get to that point, they see, and of course the the cameras and the phones are gonna come out because they're trying to take pictures or whatever. Yep, and then they they decide there am I gonna go down there or am I turning back? And I would say like 75 to 80 percent of the people turn back because that's not for them, or they just don't want to head down there. So yeah, which is unfortunate because you're missing out on a whole lot of really nice trails that you take from there. Oh, absolutely. But yeah, definitely there there is no pressure at all. You know, you go down there and and you do your thing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. And that like every time that I've been down there, everyone's been super respectful and kind. Like when I brought my kids, I had a couple guys come up to me and say, Hey, is it okay if I'm like nude around your kids? I'm like, go for it, man. And I stripped off right away, too, to kind of signify we're okay with it. But like I've found a lot of respect.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, definitely. And like just I said the the I guess the more closing optional part is from the beach up. Because I noticed once you start heading back down south, that's where you see more families and more people are clothed. Yeah. So um, if I'm gonna do any hiking and I'm nude, I I I follow your advice and I carry my shorts there, sucked away. And if I hear people coming up ahead, I'm like, all right, get my shorts ready to throw them on. Yeah. I had uh an experience one time where I was hiking and I saw a a couple and their daughter coming. She was probably a you know a young teenager. And as soon as I spotted them, I was for my shorts and I was about to throw them on, and I heard him say from across the way, he goes, Hey man, you're good, you're good. We you know you're good. And I'm like, oh my they've experienced other people, but at the same time, I was ready to throw them on if I needed to.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and that's just showing like good you know, good ownership of what you're doing and like showing that you're being respectful, and that's exactly that's the best thing you could do is just be kind and show that you know I'm not out here doing anything weird, and by you putting on your shorts or trying to, it's like, hey, I'm not not trying to like tick anyone off or upset anyone.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Do you have any like etiquette tips or things that uh you wish were more clear when you first started exploring social nudity and kind of what to expect?

SPEAKER_01

Um no, not really. I think it's I mean, I don't want to say it's self-explanatory, but a lot of it is is common sense. And like I said, I from listening to your podcast, I pick up little ticks here and there because you know, when I first started going out there, I would just kind of grab a towel and some water, and then I I'd get down there, I'm like, oh, you know what? I I forgot sunblock or I didn't bring a snack, I didn't bring this. So now I carry a pack and I I have certain things I carry with me. Um if there was a little bit more literature or signage of like, hey, from from this point on, you should be, you know, expecting something, or um, because it's it's it's pretty much left to it's left to you, the hiker out there, where you know, where when you're gonna get undressed. Because I've seen people, yeah, as soon as they hit as soon as they hit that first sign, they strip down and they're walking the whole trail nude. And I'm like, Yeah, I mean, I guess that's that's okay because the sign said, hey, you're gonna ex you might encounter new nude uh hikers. But then I'm I I'm I'm to the point where if I'm not there yet, I wait till I get up to the the lookout point, and then I'm like, all right, am I stripping down here or am I waiting till I get down?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, that's about where I strip off to is that first curve coming up to the lookout point.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So there's no real like set boundaries of where it starts, where it ends.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it it's very uh very speakeasy. Like Left to your own uh definition, I guess. I've put up like temporary signs and they just get sunbleached or people rip them down. Yeah. During our pre-interview conversation, you said something that I really loved, and I just want to like repeat it. You said, Don't be scared of the experience. What does that mean to you personally?

SPEAKER_01

So personally, it's and and especially if if you've ever uh thought about it or or it's it's just one of those things that it's been in the back of your mind, like, hey, you know, maybe I had a an experience with nudity before or I would like to try it. You know, don't don't don't let anything hold you back. You know, just just do it. And you know, Tanker Falls would be a great place, just like I said, because there's no pressure. Um, you can find your own little private area to go in and experience it. But it's one of those things where you don't want to you don't want to have any regrets, you know, you don't want to live your whole life and be like, man, you know what, I really wish I would have done this, you know, 10, 20, 15 years ago. Um because that's one of those things after I did it, I was thinking, man, I I've been missing out. Like I could have been doing this the last 20 years, you know. And now it's it's it's uh it's a regular thing for me where I have some days coming up, hey, you know what, uh there might be water, I'm gonna head out there, you know, because it it's it's it's heading hitting that reset button. Whatever I have going on in my life, I can go out there, strip down, enjoy the sun, enjoy some water, and then I come back feeling 100% better, you know?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I've never gone out there and and and not come back with a smile and feeling great.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's so true. I love that. That's so true. Is there anything else that you want to cover or say that we didn't cover or go over?

SPEAKER_01

Um, so one thing I've noticed is uh a majority of the people that go out there uh is males. Uh you'll you'll see couples here and there, you see families sometimes. Uh the ladies you might see in small groups, you rarely see them by themselves. And I understand it's probably more of a they feel safer, more secure. Um, but I think as me when I go out there by myself, um like guys need to, and I I don't think they're doing it on purpose, but sometimes guys come off a little creepy out there because this is like when they're out hiking, like they're kind of lurking and coming over rocks and surprising people. And it's like, you know, I've had a couple times where I was out there and I hear some rustling in the bushes, and I'm like, is there an animal? Like, what's going on? And yeah, I kind of get up and look over, and there's a guy like creeping back there. I'm like, hey man, are you alright? You know, and it it I've I've I've seen sometimes where you know I'm down there, I'm I'm enjoying the sun. There's another guy there, and then a lady will come down and she looks around and she decides, you know what, I don't want to be right here at this beach. And she'll go up a little farther, and next thing you know, the guy over here acts up the heads up, and I'm like, you know, he's going out there to sneak a peek. Like, come on, man, don't don't don't make it uncomfortable, you know. Everybody's out there to do their own thing, like, you know, don't do that.

SPEAKER_00

You know, yeah, they're out there trying to have their own experience. Um, that's a actually a really good point. Like, if you set up on the beach or whether you're at another beach or wherever, if someone seems like they're trying to get off in their own little section, don't go set up so that you're like in clear view of what they're doing. If they went out of their way to like leave, it's like let them let them go. And I don't know, I feel bad for the ladies sometimes that come down because it is like the guys will kind of not all of them, but there are have been a couple times where guys get really chatty.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's that's unfortunate. But yeah, like I said, I mean it that there's there's no pressure, everybody's doing their own thing. And you know, if if there's a lady down there and she wants to hang out with you, she's gonna hang out with you, you know. Like if you see her go off and do her own thing, it's because she doesn't feel comfortable or she just wants to do her own thing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I've definitely been walking around, you know, going up or downstream and like climbed over a boulder, and there'd be people laying there in the sun. I go, Oh, oh, sorry, didn't mean to like startle you or you know, surprise you. And then I move on and you're just polite and that takes care of it.

SPEAKER_01

Yep.

SPEAKER_00

Cool, man. Well, thank you so much for coming on and going over your story and talking about Tank of Verde and nude hiking and all of it. I really appreciate it. And it was great talking with you and getting to meet you there.

SPEAKER_01

Of course, I appreciate it, and it's it's great. Uh, this podcast you're doing is I think it's amazing. As soon as I saw it, I'm like, I listened to the first episode, I'm like, all right, this guy, this guy knows what he's talking about. And like I said, every every new episode that comes out, I'm like, I'm always picking up these things. And I mean, when you talked about how you uh how you brought it up to your wife, I'm like, well, I mean, I'm already past that point, but that's definitely some good advice for for somebody who's thinking about doing it and has a spouse. Yeah. And like I said, I'm I'm constantly picking up new new new tips and listening to your interviews with uh with you know founders of different groups. And I mean, this this is just great. I really appreciate what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you. I appreciate that. I'm I'm hoping that it enables more people to kind of get out and enjoy nature in a free new experience because I found a lot of freedom in this area from doing it. So hopefully that's you know, that is carrying through.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_00

Cool. Well, thank you again, and hopefully I will see you out on the trail soon.

SPEAKER_01

Yep, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00

All right, that's the end of the episode. Thank you, Mike, for coming on and sharing your story. It's such a solid reminder that most people who find their way into this aren't trying to be different, they're just trying to reconnect with something that's always been there. And what stands out to me most justn't isn't just that you that he tried it, it's how he handled it, with respect and with patience and with awareness for the people around him. And that's really what it's all about. If there's one thing that you take away from this episode, it's this. Don't be scared of the experience. If you've got something out of this episode, share it with someone who might need to hear it. And if you're on your own journey with this, just take it one step at a time. For now, get naked, be free, and be kind.