EP. 16 – Deter’s First Naked Hike

What is it really like to go on your first nude hike?

In this episode, I sit down with my friend Deter to talk about her very first experience hiking nude at Tanque Verde Falls. We originally planned to record the entire adventure out on the trail, but after some less-than-perfect audio, we decided to sit down afterward in her home studio and reflect on the experience together.

We discuss the emotions, fears, and expectations that come with trying something completely outside your comfort zone. From body image and vulnerability to freedom and self-acceptance, Deter shares her honest perspective on what it felt like to step into nature without the barriers of clothing—and what surprised her most along the way.

We also explore the cultural stigma surrounding nudity, the difference between nudity and sexuality, and how naturism can help people develop a healthier relationship with their bodies and with one another.

Whether you’re a longtime naturist, a curious newcomer, or simply interested in hearing a genuine conversation about challenging social norms, this episode offers an honest look at what happens when we let go of judgment and embrace authenticity.

In This Episode:

• Deter’s first nude hiking experience
 • Overcoming fear and self-consciousness
 • Body image and self-acceptance
 • Social perceptions of nudity
 • Naturism, friendship, and trust
 • Finding freedom and connection in nature

Music Credit

The original podcast theme and the rock version featured in this episode were written, produced, recorded, mixed, and mastered by Deter through FN Wizard Music Productions.

Show Notes

Follow Deter and listen to her music:

https://www.instagram.com/theodore_the_curse

Article: Spending Time Outdoors Can Boost Your Mental Health

https://healthcare.utah.edu/healthfeed/2026/06/spending-time-outdoors-can-boost-your-mental-health

Article: The End of the Naked Locker Room?

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/2025/11/naked-locker-room-end/684907/

Get NAKED + Be Free + Be Kind

Follow the journey on Instagram: @HikingWithoutAStitch

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:16

I'll share my dream for toys from the trail in conversations with others who have found freedom in the open air. How's it going guys? Welcome back to Hike Without a Stitch. I'm John, your host, and today I'm joined by my good friend Dieter. If you've listened to the podcast before, you've actually already heard some of her work. She created the intro and outro music for the podcast, so I'm really excited to have her on. A while back, Dieter and I went to Tank Verde Falls and I took her on her first nude hike. We originally planned to record that whole experience out on the trail, but the audio didn't really come out quite the way that uh we wanted, so instead we sat down afterwards at her in-home studio to talk about what that experience was like for her. In this conversation, we explore first-time impressions, fears, body image, societal expectations around nudity, and what happens when you step outside of your comfort zone and reconnect with nature in a completely different way. So let's jump into this.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

No, you're good. Yes. Have you ever done naked highly? Oh, that's awesome. Hell yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

And I think we are uh officially recording. All right. Yeah, so welcome, Dieter. Thank you for being here. I really appreciate you being on the podcast. I've been looking forward to this for a while now.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Yeah, we've we've talked about it pretty extensively for months and months. And then we've finally made the time to, you know, get our schedules in line. We went and and we did the hike that we've been talking about, and now we're here to talk about the hike on the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

Yeah. Um what's really interesting too is you're the person who created the intro and outro music for the podcast, and you were one of the first people that I told and kind of put it out there and you know, said, Hey, I like going naked out in the woods. Yeah. What do you think of this? You know, um, so you're a good friend of mine, you're a coworker and one of the biggest supporters of the podcast from the very beginning, so thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Fan number one.

SPEAKER_03 3:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Number one fan.

SPEAKER_03 3:13

How long have you been like producing music?

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Um, I've been producing music with you know the the setup and the gear, everything you see here for probably about ten years now, actually. Which is crazy to think because it doesn't feel like ten years. I still don't feel like I know what I'm doing. But I've been playing music m pretty much my whole life.

SPEAKER_03 3:35

That's awesome. You're very good at it. Um okay. I think you're good at it. Thank thank you. And you do do like uh production producing music for um videos and podcasts and other other projects like that.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

Yeah, I've done a couple a couple different I've I've dabbled in a couple different realms. I've done podcasts. Yours wasn't the first one that I had done. I've also done uh some film. I just wrapped up another film, which I will show you later, the the the sneak peek of that one. Oh badass. I look forward to it. I've done stuff for Twitch streamers, I've done stuff for YouTube content creators, uh just any and everything. Yeah, if you need music for something, I'll I'll do it.

SPEAKER_03 4:25

I will I will link your information in the uh show notes. Yeah. So that'll get out there. So if you need music for anything, contact her. Um what really inspired you to start doing music? Was that something from like your childhood or later in life?

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Definitely grew up with it. My mother's side of the family most there there was a one generation where everyone was a musician musician. And if you don't play an instrument, then you love to dance and you love to go listen to live music, and so any family member that's in a band or whatever, you know, we'll we'll go out and we'll go see them, or we'll go catch a band, we'll go out dancing. We just like music is just the core of our family, really, in a way. So I just ever since I was a kid, it was just there. It was like, oh yeah, my uncle's band's playing, let's go check them out.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

That's super cool. Yeah. So yeah. That is super cool. Um what was it like kind of making making the podcast music for the podcast kind of when you found out that I was doing that and going that route?

SPEAKER_00 5:36

Well, I wanted to talk to you, of course, and see what you wanted it to sound like, you know, little little tidbits, the the the overall feel, because it is very rooted in nature, naturism. So I wanted to touch base first, and then you gave me an idea, and then I took that idea, and then I I threw in the whole nature aspect and you know, put the bird the the birds and it's just very it's just very light and it makes you feel like you're out skipping naked. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

Just smoking weed, walking on the trail.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Yeah, it kind of does. But it but it's also upbeat and it has it has a little bit of those hip hoppy drums to it too, because I wanted it to still have a little bit of like, you know, the flair. Yeah. And also, you know, you are a former rapper.

SPEAKER_03 6:24

Right there. Represent North Bend, Washington. That's right. So set this up a little bit, you yourself, you would not identify yourself as like a nudist or a naturist. You're just kind of open to nudity?

SPEAKER_00 6:37

Yeah, I don't I wouldn't say I have a label, but I don't I'm not uncomfortable by nudity, and I myself, I don't like to wear clothes. Mostly a shirt. I don't like to wear shirts. I would I'm all about free the nip. I I don't think I should have to wear a shirt if I don't want to. Well, yeah, and I I would prefer to not.

SPEAKER_03 7:01

It's an interesting um dynamic that women women's nipples get sexualized, and like I can go outside and cut the grass or be in the pool or whatever, shirtless, but a woman can't. We kind of talked about that a little bit on the hike. Yeah, I think that's so backwards and weird. Um you you also uh you uh had an incident with the uh FedEx driver this last week.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

It was Amazon. Amazon. It was the Amazon driver. Yeah, and I and I I told you and and our friends about it because we always share weird, crazy stories with one another because that's what we do. Um so yeah, I was out, we were out in the pool this Sunday, just having a good time, playing some beer pong in the pool, listening to some dance hall renegade, and I'm topless in the pool, and I'm I'm mid-shot, just having a good old time, just dancing, getting ready to shoot. I'm like, oh shit, there's the Amazon guy. He's he's he's I he saw. He seemed to. Did he react at all, or was it just like, oh no, by the time I realized that he was on the porch placing the package, you know, he had already he had already made that walk. Yeah, you you just you saw that he made the walk back.

SPEAKER_03 8:18

That's what I thought about when I walked up to your house.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

You did you put yourself in the Amazon delivery driver's shoes?

SPEAKER_03 8:23

Oh, she'd be right there in the pool. Yep. I'm like, yeah, I can picture it. It's a strip.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Just sad titties out.

SPEAKER_03 8:30

Yeah. So I guess I didn't set this this episode up very well. But we are ridiculous. So sorry, everyone. Let's come to a screeching hold. We are at Dieter's house in her home studio recording this episode. Um, we could have done it through the internet, but we felt it would be better to be in person and hash things out and talk about our relationship and going hiking naked together. So that's right. Like what we We're friends.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

Yeah, damn it.

SPEAKER_03 9:03

We have built this relationship up. Um what was your like honest reaction when I first told you that I was like a naturist and liked naked hiking?

SPEAKER_00 9:16

I thought it was cool. I was like, oh, that's what that's what you're doing. Okay, tell me about it. Like that sounds really that sounds really neat because I like both of those things. I like recreation and I like not wearing clothes. Yeah. Why wouldn't you combine them together? That's great. Tell me more. I was very intrigued. I wasn't weirded out weirded out by it at all. It was curious.

SPEAKER_03 9:43

Yeah. Yeah, it was it was interesting telling you because you had already kind of passed like the vibe check, you know, just through conversations we had had, I was like, oh, I think she's down, you know what I mean? Like I don't think she'd be too weirded out if I told her.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

No, not at all.

SPEAKER_03 9:58

So I told you and it wasn't really a big deal. Um, did you know what naturism was about? Like, so you'd never really heard about it. No. Someone from like the outside.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

No, no, and surprisingly too, because uh you know, I'm from the East Coast and spent a lot of time in the woods and spent a lot of time with hippies and you know, very free-minded, open people, but that specific term of naturism and and going into what it actually means, I've never heard of it. Never heard of it.

SPEAKER_03 10:35

Interesting. So when I told told you it was like your first kind of introduction to it, was there anything that you were like, mm, I think this might be like a swingers thing, or it was it pretty obvious that I wasn't trying to be weird or or present weirdly to you?

SPEAKER_00 10:51

Oh no, nah, I never thought that for a single second. Yeah, no, there wasn't there wasn't any of that. But I also know you. Yeah at that point we had already known each other for for a while, you know, and had built a relationship. So there was never a thought of it being weird at all.

unknown 11:10

No.

SPEAKER_03 11:10

Gotcha. Right on. Well, uh.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Also, at any moment now the F bombs are gonna start flying. So, ladies and gentlemen, if you are listening with your children, please stop.

SPEAKER_03 11:24

We are gonna we're gonna have some cursing, and that is okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

It's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

I want everyone to show up how they normally show up.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Um it's gonna start happening. Um so and and my qu some of my questions for you are, you know, because when you and I'm gonna I'm gonna kind of first go into our shared existential life crisis, because I think that's important because that's really where this all kind of started, I think. Because we both bonded off of this notion that we were at a point in our lives where we're, you know, in our mid-30s and we don't really feel fulfilled, and we both came to this crashing conclusion of man, this sucks because we're we're waking up every day, we're going and spending a third of our day doing something that we don't necessarily like to do, but we have to do it because we don't want to live under a bridge. Yeah. We have families to support, so we're gonna get up and we're gonna go to work. But it's not who we are, it's not what we love to do. It's like, wouldn't you rather be doing this? Wouldn't you rather be doing that? Yeah, yeah. And then we got really, really deep into the we got down into the pipeline of the, you know, spiritual, psychological, like it got it got very, very deep. Um but that's where we started really bonding, and you became my brother from another mother. And I think that's the point where you started really diving into naturism and using that as your channel to reconnect with yourself.

SPEAKER_04 12:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

And along that way, when you first jumped into it, you you were greeted with some aggressiveness from from men. You know, and and if you wanna share those stories.

SPEAKER_03 13:12

That's something that kind of caught me off guard coming into this that I didn't really expect is that pretty much when I first started my Instagram profile, kind of chronicling my hikes and tips to go out and to like public lands naked, I was met with a lot of aggressive sexualness, sexual energy from random men. I would get dick pics.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Um lots of dick pics.

SPEAKER_03 13:38

Yeah. Yeah, lots of dick pics, lots of solicitation, lots of like private, crude comments, which was really I didn't expect that. Because coming into it, I'm like, oh, this helps me mentally. I'm like super thrilled. Like the way that I put it to Olivia is if I could take the feelings from nude hiking and put it into pill form, everyone would be taking it because it's it's so amazing. But the fact that you have to confront yourself and strip everything off and be really, really vulnerable and step out, people don't want to do that. And so I was going into it with this like rose-colored glasses. Everyone's everyone's got the best intentions, all the real ones are gonna be on here, and it's gonna be great. And it was like, hey man, I like nude hiking too, and like some dude masturbating, you know. In a canoe, in a canoe route, you know, whatever. And I'm like, this is not the vibe that I'm going for. So that was kind of weird.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

He was my hands down my favorite. Um, so being met with that kind of right out of the gate, how did that make you feel? Was there anything about that that made you feel deterred from taking that second step into it?

SPEAKER_03 15:00

A little bit, a little bit. Between the tidal wave of sexual energy that shot at me that I wasn't expi uh expecting. Um, I was also met with like when I told some family members and friends with a little bit of pushback of like they just didn't get it, and it kind of put some pressure on our relationship, you know, because they're like, Well, why can't you just be like you have been, you know, just be normal and why you gotta be naked now?

SPEAKER_04 15:33

That word normal.

SPEAKER_03 15:34

That's the problem with it. Well, and like you were talking about the existential crisis that we both had. We were fed this narrative, do these things, pursue, pursue this type of money. You have to look a certain way, you have to be a certain way to be included and and have value about yourself. And we did all the things, and now we're trying to unlearn most of what we built up during our you know, teen and twenties.

SPEAKER_04 16:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:05

I guess if I could put it that way, I'm like unlearning a lot of the internal narratives and and judgment systems and spiritual systems that I adopted when I was a kid. And like naturism's been a huge part of that, just kind of opening my eyes and like going, oh, there's other ways to live and um commune with people in nature that's like way healthier.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Yeah, f for sure. And I've always I I'm with you, I've always held just nature in in very high regard. I've always felt that being outside, being with trees and and and feeling grass and grounding yourself and really intertwining your body with what's around you has a it has a feel, it has a vibration, and you know, not to sound too hippy-dippy, but there's something to it, I think. And and I don't know if maybe not everyone is attuned into that because everyone's different, everyone has different upbringings, life experiences, so maybe someone out there is thinking, well, I can go touch a rock and I don't really feel any fucking different, it's just a fucking rock. Like, okay, you know, you know, that's you, but have you ever really felt the rock? You know? Well, yeah. You know what I mean? Have you really felt the rock?

SPEAKER_03 17:25

Yeah, well, everything gives I don't know how it took. Everything gives off a vibe. Yeah, everything gives off a vibe.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

You have to be open to it.

SPEAKER_03 17:32

Yeah, and I think in the world that we live in currently, everything's about distraction. Everything's about being more disconnected from the natural world.

SPEAKER_04 17:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:41

Um, and that's something we talked about on our hike that we'll get to very shortly, but like, yeah, from our phones to working the hours that we work, from having a phone that you know your boss can call you anytime. You can get emails anytime. It's constant distraction. And so I think stripping off your clothes and going back out in the nature is like a direct communion with the natural world. You're no longer this separate piece of it, you're a part of this ecosystem and you're moving through it.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Amen, brother. I mean, that's I'm I'm I'm I'm with you on that. I've always I've always felt that way, and there and there is something I think to when you do strip down and you you embrace that vulnerability, you you do connect with it differently. Like even just you know, if you want to go lay out in your backyard naked and and and get a tan, just you know, tan your height a little bit. Yeah. You know, you you feel happy afterwards. You you get that that euphoric feeling that the the sun is doing something, the air is doing something, it's it's where we are meant to be. Yeah, truly, I think, just my opinion.

SPEAKER_03 18:59

Well, going going in that vein, like you actually spoke to me a few weeks ago at work about you were in your pool topless, kind of like swimming around, just laying in the water, listening to the birds, and you said you felt this like immense amount of like peace and gratefulness and just ease. Like, why do you think that you get your your body starts to calm down when you're in those moments?

SPEAKER_00 19:26

I I think that it just comes down to at the core of every human being, we are of we are of the earth. And yeah, and then we always you know what do we do? We die and we return to it. It's it's it there's a there's a cycle, there's always a cycle at play. And I personally truly believe that most people would be better, they'd be happier if they did three things. And you know, I say this all the time get exercise, eat a good, healthy diet, and go outside and get sun. Yep. I really think that those three things would help most people. And of course, there are special circumstances, there are people that really do have conditions that might inhibit them mentally, physically, whatever it is that you know, but that's not everyone. And and now we're in this age of everyone's depressed, everyone's got a mental illness, and I'm not taken away from the people that do, by all means, but you see it so much, and and there's always a pill that they want to put you on to help you feel better. But then when you when you really break it down and look at the statistics behind it, a lot of these people are they're overweight, they don't exercise, they're not outside, they're inside, maybe they're playing video games all day, and hey, I love video games too. You saw my systems out there, I've got like every fucking one. But that's not all that you need that you should be doing. There's a balance. You've got yeah, there's always a balance, you but you I think that we are supposed to be out moving our bodies, and we're supposed to be outside, and we're we're supposed to be getting a proper dosage of all of those things. You know, the r and then the rest and relaxation come in into play with of of with that as well. You you you've gotta have both. You can't also just be out there grinding all day.

SPEAKER_04 21:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

You've gotta be able to shut it down and relax and rejuvenate.

SPEAKER_04 21:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

And so I balance is hard to uh obtain, but I think it's the key for a lot of a lot of everything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:42

Interesting. What was your like what was your relationship with your body and nudity like growing up when when you were younger?

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Personally, I hated my body when I was growing up because I was a fat kid. Um so I was Very, very self-conscious for a very very long time. Even after I grew up and lost weight as a as a teenager, I was 16, 17 going through that. Even after that, I it my brain still didn't register that I was different now. And and I still have issues because you know I I lost a lot of weight. And so like I have extra skin on my midsection and stretch marks and stuff like that. Because that's what happens. That's the way the the body is. You know, your skin only has so much elasticity, blah blah blah. So I struggled with that for a really long time, and because of it, I was not cool with taking my shirt off, even though I wanted to. Or, you know, like I I wouldn't go skinny dipping with friends maybe in high school. Going into college, you know, once I started getting a little bit more confident in myself and not caring as much, that was different. But initially I was not into it. Not that it nudity was really shunned.

SPEAKER_03 23:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

In in my family. Uh it was it was it wasn't it wasn't taboo, but me personally, I didn't want to partake in it because I was extremely self-conscious.

SPEAKER_03 23:18

Interesting. So nudity to you was shameful. Like you didn't you didn't like parts about your body, so nudity was associated with like shame.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

To me it was, yeah. Yeah. For sure.

SPEAKER_03 23:36

So at what point did you start accepting your your body and becoming more okay with with the things that you saw about yourself that you didn't like?

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Definitely in college, go you know, g getting out of my hometown, going out on my own, meeting all of these really interesting new people, and I got really lucky because I met a lot of good people along the way. Met some bad, but I figured out pretty quickly to discard them. So I I was really lucky in just meeting good, safe, fun people. And the more people I met and the different types of people I met, different body types, different backgrounds, just really just building, you know, my own personal social culture. I just started getting more comfortable because they were all comfortable. No one and and I realized that no one cared what I looked like because no one saw me the way I did, no one analyzed me the way that I did. They were just like, oh, you go to the gym, you look good. Cool. Alright, well, so I guess I can keep you know, just keep my bathing suit on. That's cool, alright. Yeah, let's go with this. And then it slowly just turned into meeting more people that were like, hey dude, let's go skinny dipping. Okay, I guess I'll try it, you know, with a little liquid encouragement. Did it, fine, no one cared. And then everything just progressed into me not really caring anymore.

SPEAKER_03 25:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

And that's where I'm at now. It's like I just I I don't I don't think of myself that way the way I used to. Not not nearly as negatively. I mean, my wife might disagree. She's like, Yeah, you worry too much about what you look like, blah blah blah. I'm like, Yeah, well I'm in fitness though, you know.

SPEAKER_03 25:31

I think you're badass. I think I think you're a badass. I think you're doing great.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

Thanks, Brad.

SPEAKER_03 25:38

Oh. It's just we get so hung up on our our own selves, and we have like the harshest inner dialogues for ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

We are our hardest connects.

SPEAKER_03 25:52

It's so wild, for sure. Yeah.

unknown 25:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:55

That's a hard thing to get get through, and I'm I'm glad that you know found a path that made you feel comfortable and found people that made you feel comfortable instead of the opposite, because you and I both know you can find shitty people. Um let's talk leading up to the hike. Okay. What was that like meeting me at the Tank Faraday trailhead?

SPEAKER_00 26:22

Well, once I got over the road, if you recall, I was like, this road is fucking bullshit. Meet me at the first lot. I'm not driving up to the fifth one, dude.

SPEAKER_03 26:31

You're not the first person to say that either. Like, why didn't you fucking tell me about the road?

SPEAKER_00 26:35

Like, I don't drive a Jeep anymore, asshole. I have a fucking sedan. Um but it really wasn't that bad. It was just that first part I freaked out. But no, I was I was just really excited. I I was I had been anticipating it, we've been talking about it, and the weather was perfect. It was nice and warm, but it wasn't it wasn't overwhelmingly hot to where we were sweating our titties off, you know. It was it was just nice. There was a nice breeze going, and so I was driving up, jamming in some music, and I was like, this is gonna be great. We're gonna get exercise, we're gonna talk about life and philosophical shit, and we're gonna have a great time. So I was just really excited just just to really go and hang out, have some have some some homie time, really, you know.

SPEAKER_03 27:21

I was excited. Um, what were you most nervous about coming coming up and going on the hike?

SPEAKER_00 27:29

I was most nervous about running into someone that was gonna be there and maybe miss the signs about the trail and be upset that there was a naked people just hanging out around them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:44

So you're you were more worried about like a negative encounter or run in with like a clothed person.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

Yeah, I w that's what I was more worried about.

SPEAKER_03 27:52

Um, and then I know that before long before we actually went on a hike together, you had expressed like thoughts about well, what if I get bugs or dirt or sticks like in areas that I'm not I don't want bugs and sticks to get into, you know.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Don't want them in my coochie. No? Yeah. I did I said that specifically, I was like, I am not trying to have that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:17

But sounds like a bad time.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

Yes. But if you if you're actually just out hiking, though, it's if you're up and moving, especially in the trail where we are at, there's really nothing around that you come in contact with.

SPEAKER_03 28:31

You can get some sand in your crack when you sit down, but that's sit on a towel.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Yeah, sit on a towel.

SPEAKER_03 28:36

There you go. Um was uh We already talked about like kind of what you thought like the negative would be. Was it kind of what you thought it would be like overall? Like going, hiking, meeting me turned out kind of what you expected?

SPEAKER_00 29:00

Yeah, it was it was fun. It was great. We cause we just hung out, it was just the two of us, so we were able to just we talked and you know, we we we smoked weed. Am I allowed to say that? Oh yeah. I already said it. Okay, cool. No, we're we did, but we smoked, you know, we smoked weed and we we went and and we hiked and we talked about a lot of stuff. We saw some really cool shit, saw a lot of snakes. Yeah, lots of gardeners. A lot of snakes that day. It was really neat. Yeah, and it was it was just super fun. It was it was it was such a good time. We had great conversation, we got exercise, we got some sun, it was beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 29:34

So we're walking, talking, I'm kind of explaining the trail, explaining the signs, someone defaced the signs and wrote uh uh explicit bullshit all over it.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Don't do that. Yeah, please don't. Because even though like it's funny, but it's not funny in this regard, because if you're trying to promote something that isn't sexual, you know, if you do make it sexual, it just defeats the purpose.

SPEAKER_03 30:01

Yeah, it just it just It defeats the whole purpose. Yeah, it gives the wrong it gives the wrong message to people that really don't know what this is all about. So we get to a certain point and I say, Hey, are you cool if I strip off? You say, Are you cool if I strip off? And we strip off. What was that like for you when you first took your top off?

SPEAKER_00 30:18

I mean it felt it felt good.

SPEAKER_03 30:20

Felt good. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

Yeah. Because I was like, oh finally I can take this goddamn thing off. You know, like, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:25

It was nice. So was it weird seeing me naked at all?

SPEAKER_00 30:29

No.

SPEAKER_03 30:29

No. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

It didn't bother me. But it also I wasn't like looking at you.

SPEAKER_03 30:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

I wasn't like, you know, doing a fucking uh a sketch of your dick or anything. Like to take home and say, Look what I did today. Oh, d cut her name out. This is my wife's name.

SPEAKER_02 30:46

We'll cut it out.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

This part out. I don't want to name drop anyone, but but I wasn't like it it was just fine. It wasn't it wasn't a big deal, you know. Like, I'm a grown adult. I've seen naked people, men and women, who I don't care, you know, it just wasn't a big deal.

SPEAKER_03 31:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

And like you're my friend, so like I'm it's not like I there's a stranger coming at me somewhere. It's like you're my you're my dude, you're my my brother, you know.

SPEAKER_03 31:12

See, this is this is why I think this conversation's gonna be so interesting, because I'm your male coworker, we're also friends, but we work together, and um it's like I think a lot of people are gonna be curious about how that dynamic works because in an ordinary circumstance, a a female colleague going out with a male colleague and stripping off and going hiking naked together is kind of extreme. I think a lot of people go, hey, geez.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

I I think you're right. I think most people would be a little taken aback by that. But again, for me, it it wasn't weird. But I also I've I've I've spent a lot of time, most of a lot of my friends are guy friends. I grew up with a lot of guy friends. I have four brothers, I have male cousins that I grew up with and hung out with all the time. I just I I enjoy male energy more than I do female energy in a in a social friendship vibe. And not that I don't have female friends, but I I rather would hang out with guys, honestly. So like it doesn't it doesn't bother me. It's not weird to me at all.

SPEAKER_03 32:28

Interesting. What surprised you most about how you felt on the hike?

SPEAKER_00 32:40

I think I'm trying to remember exactly how I said it to you, but I it just felt it just felt free, you know, and and it's and it's not that I haven't maybe taken my shirt off on a hike before and had just a sports bra on. Like I've definitely done that because I get hot and I don't like wearing shirts, but to have that extra layer off and really just feel everything, it just felt good. And I think I said something to you along the lines of this is what our ancestors did.

SPEAKER_04 33:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

You know, like this is this is what people did. They they just at one point in time, they were just out here in either no clothes or very limited clothes, and they were just roaming around trying to live, not worrying about any of the minor bullshit that comes along with you know, like, is someone gonna see me or whatever it is. Like no one can they're just existing. Probably didn't even run into anyone either because there were so few people, but like that's that's that's what people did. They're and you know, the eons ago. But like this is what our I was like, this is what our ancestors did.

SPEAKER_03 33:49

Well yeah, it's a deeper connection to everything going on around you. When you're naked, you have to slow down a little bit. You have to be more aware of what's going on. So to me, it makes me more present because I'm like, oh, I don't want to slap a cactus or walk up onto you know some family enjoying the trail too. So I have to be pretty vigilant, which helps me stay um pretty grounded and right where I'm at.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

Yeah, it was also fun not having to catch that boob sweat. You wouldn't know that because you don't have boobs. I mean, I don't really have boobs either, but when you wear when you wear a bra or a sports bra, you you catch like a little lake right here, right in between the titties, and it's it's not no one likes it. No one likes it. It's not good, it's bad.

SPEAKER_03 34:36

Something we also talked about on the hike was body image. Yes. And I think a lot of people have parts of themselves and insecurities that they don't really like and they're self-conscious about. Um did this experience shift anything around that for you, or did you see anything on this experience that would help someone that's struggling with um body image and you know self-worth?

SPEAKER_00 35:03

I mean, I definitely think that doing something like this with people that you're comfortable with and you trust would help some people get over those barriers. And I say some because of course not everyone's the same and not everyone comes, you know, again, that that that life that you've led leading up to these events, it's all different, but like like I said on on the hike, I I think that in most situations if you force yourself into that uncomfortable realm, force yourself to be a little uncomfortable, and then you get comfortable with being uncomfortable, and then from that you grow and you become better, and and whatever it is, and it's the same thing with body image, you know, if you're someone that doesn't like the way that you look or you feel some type of way, but you you want to be out there doing these things or try it, just go with someone that you trust, or go go somewhere that you can you can try it out and just dip your toes and just push yourself just a little bit into that uncomfortable realm and and and see what it does for you because you're never gonna overcome anything that bothers you until you stand up to it and fight it.

SPEAKER_04 36:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

And and just go head on, you know? And so yeah, it's something something like this. I mean, I I'm already comfortable with being naked, but I I would even say doing this made me feel even more better with it, or or or more comfortable with it, I should say. You know?

SPEAKER_03 36:39

Yeah, and like we did the whole vibe on the hike too is cool because we did interact with a couple people. There's naked dudes walking around. The dude uh when we were walking down, um, I don't remember his name. Maybe I make up his name, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

Pretty sure it was but that also might be his real name, and maybe we shouldn't say it.

SPEAKER_03 37:01

We're gonna call you Joey.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

We're gonna call him Jesus. Oh, Joey's fine too.

SPEAKER_02 37:06

Let's go with Joey. Let's go with Joey. Not Jesus. We'll go with Joey. We'll go with Joey's.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Um, so we met Joey. I'm trying to not ruin this. I'm sorry. No, you're doing great. This is awesome. This is awesome.

SPEAKER_03 37:21

We met Joey on the way down, and what was your what was your thoughts on what he said? Because he said, Oh, there's like a whole bunch of clothed people down there. It's good to see naked people, or whatever he said.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

Yeah, however he put it. And and he was super nice. He was he was super nice and he was completely not threatening. He was just a very jovial, friendly person. And it was I'm glad that we had that interaction because when we've joked about it, how he said what he said. I was like, Oh yeah, I've never seen so many clothed people here. Like, what are they doing? And I thought that that was funny because in most situations it would it would be reversed. It would be, oh my god, why aren't we why are this why is there a naked why are there naked people here? Yeah, what the fuck are they doing? Yeah. But no, it was it was the opposite. This guy was like, Why are they wearing clothes? I don't understand that. It was really funny. The hell's wrong with everyone. But he was very, very nice. He was very kind. Yeah. So do you think that there is a natural connection that our bodies have to our surroundings? And of course, m within reason, because not every climate is suitable for humans to just be uncovered all the time and then survive. Um, obviously, you can't live up in Norway and go on a naked hike. Maybe in the summer, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 38:48

I've I have spoken to one uh nudist guy in like Sweden, Norway. He's about it. But but you do have to wear clothes. That's the thing. People are like, oh, you're you're a natureist, you never wear clothes. No, I do wear clothes when I need to wear clothes, when I go to work, if it's cold, but in certain climates, clothing's not optional. Like you'll freeze to death.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:13

If you're naked up in Alaska in the winter.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

Yeah. Like that.

SPEAKER_03 39:17

Yeah. So I definitely think there's a direct connection between our bodies and the way we live and the way we connect to the stuff around us. Um, whether that's taking your shoes off and touching the dirt, and you know, whenever I take my shoes off and run my toes through the uh the grass and the dirt, I can always feel like, oh, there's something more. You know what I mean? There's like there's a connection to something more. And by stripping off, you just get that tenfold. You feel the breeze on your body, you feel the sun like warming you, you're sweating more because your pores aren't covered up. I mean, it has a lot of health benefits. Um there was a recent study, I don't remember the direct numbers, so don't like quote me on this. I'm quote.

SPEAKER_00 40:09

I'm writing this. I'm writing it down.

SPEAKER_03 40:11

Don't quote me. I'm writing it down. But it's like 30 minutes walking. Like sets your body into like the calm just drops you into like this calm state where you're like, if you hear birds chirping, your brain's like, oh, we can relax. There's no there's no bad guys or mountain lions that are gonna jump on us because the birds are chirping. It's like signals our our lizard brain from thousands of years ago that we're safe and you can relax and you don't need to be in fight or flight. So I think spending time in nature walking around like that, you're just popping your your body out of f fight or flight and into a more like oh, we can process some trauma and we can just be in the moment and live.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

Absolutely, and going back to just the the connection between physical activity and and the mental benefits. My I mean my background's in sport and exercise psychology. That's what my degree's in. I'm I'm in the fitness world, this is what I do. And there is 100% a positive reaction that occurs in most people when you are exercising. It's the chemical release of the serotonin that gives you that. That's why they call it a runner's high.

SPEAKER_04 41:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

And you you do get it's a it's about it within the 20-30 minute range, because it varies, that you your br your body slips into this state of a mild euphoria. And and that's why they call it the runner's high, because you get into that groove and you can get lost in that. And that's a a lot of if you ever go into marathon runners that talk about it, you know, because people ask them, well, how do you run for the right thing? Because I I have friends that are marathon runners and I think they're crazy, but but they they can really elaborate on what it's like to when you hit that run. And once you, of course, condition your body to be able to do something like that, you get it, they get addicted to it. They're addicted to that serotonin. Yeah, and that that adrenaline that also that they're getting. It's it's very there really truly actually is there's it's real, and that's again why I think that exercise is so important. And you don't have to be a marathon runner, but yeah, going outside and just taking a hike in nature will set you right. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. It's good stuff. Um, but do you feel that society, or especially the history of society, has purposely pushed us into the direction of feeling shameful about our bodies? And and that it was sort of premeditated, if you will.

SPEAKER_03 43:04

How much time do you have?

SPEAKER_00 43:06

I have all the time in the world. I was anticipating us really going possibly on a tangent on this one.

SPEAKER_03 43:14

We hear we are definitely gonna go on a side tangent. I'm very excited for it. This is something that. So, in short, yes, I do feel that these systems at play have been hijacked or created to have control over us. Whether that's presenting women with razors and saying smooth skin is sexy, our ma uh monetizing bras. Oh no, you need bras. Bras are so bad for your breasts.

SPEAKER_00 43:49

I hate them.

SPEAKER_03 43:50

Ba bras are so brat bad for your breasts, and it was like created for men to make money. You know what I mean? It's all makeup. They create the problem and then build the solution and sell it to you. And and it's all based on an innate need inside of everyone to feel wanted and included and loved.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 44:17

Um and I think companies prey upon that. I think um you and I have spoken about this before, but religious organizations prey upon that.

SPEAKER_04 44:26

Yes, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_03 44:30

Purity culture, um, kind of they weaponize it to control you. Don't have sex. Your body's shameful, sex is shameful. You know, all these messaging, at least that the church that I grew up in, they were pretty strong on um purity culture. So like I got messaging that if you masturbated, you would go to hell. Um nudity. Don't we weren't even allowed to take our shirts off swimming because the counselors didn't want the boys to somehow tempt the girls into uh sin. And vice versa, you know.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

Yeah, it's just when you when you first told me that I thought that I was thought you were joking. I was like, what? They told boys they couldn't do something? That's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 45:19

It's usually only one-sided. Yeah, yeah, yeah, pretty much. But but yeah, just the whole onus of oh, I'm now I'm putting this on like girls too. Yeah. You're now responsible for someone else's sin. Because your body. Um, this is a really weird side danger. We can just go right back to you.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

No, I like it. Let's keep going. No, let's keep going.

SPEAKER_03 45:45

Um but yeah, I mean, have you gotten any of those messaging that kind of I feel like everyone does to a to an extent.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

Oh, yeah. I mean, and and we can d even dive into the difference of growing up, you know, you you growing up a boy becoming a man and me growing up a girl becoming a woman, because I I definitely think that there is a certain point, you know, right around like when you're hitting before you hit puberty, where it's like, okay, you're not a kid anymore, you're entering preteen, teenager years, and so therefore, now you are expected to act a certain way. You are expected to just stop liking these activities or interests that you have because your gender dictates that you shouldn't. And and I never understood that. And I think that also with sexuality and and and and mostly I mean like sex, because oftentimes boys are allowed to be boys are just being boys. So it's cute when a little five-year-old boy comes and says, Oh, I have a girlfriend. But then if a little five-year-old girl comes up and says, I have a boyfriend, it's like, oh, you're too young for that, you can't do that. Yeah. You know, or even going into the the teenage realm, most of the time, most of the time, it's like, oh yeah, boys masturbate, they're supposed to, that's what they do.

SPEAKER_04 47:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

You know, but girls don't even think about it. Yeah. You have to be a a perfect little untouched flower until you get married. Yes. You know, and that's been a culture that's across a lot of different cultures, and it's been that way for a long time. And again, I just I don't understand that. And the same thing with nudity. It's it's okay if a guy wants to take his shirt off because he doesn't have an accumulation of fat around his chest area.

SPEAKER_04 47:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

Or if a guy wants to go hang out with his buddies and go to a sauna. Or a lot of time I've heard a lot I've heard so many stories from my brothers or my guy friends about guys' locker rooms and how much fun they would have running around naked being silly. Sounds like a blast. Guess what? Girls don't do that.

SPEAKER_03 48:09

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

Girls don't do that. There's there's nothing that's ever told to you as a girl growing up, at least in my gen even in my generation growing up, where you could go and just hang out with your girlfriends naked and go be run around and be stupid and be silly. Like maybe some people got that, but I know I didn't get that.

SPEAKER_03 48:28

Yeah, like the only place that my mind can go is like skinny dipping at like a lake or a river or something.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:34

Or maybe like when you're at the mall, like you're in the changing changing fitting rooms or something.

SPEAKER_00 48:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:39

But I I don't get that vibe from from girls. Well, d this is an interesting interesting topic. Um that has to do with locker rooms. Because you you go in locker rooms currently because you're in sports and fitness, so you're kind of around that world. You're in a gym more than I am.

SPEAKER_00 48:59

Every day of my life.

SPEAKER_03 49:00

Yeah. Do you see? Well, hold let me back up. Let me rephrase this. There is a movement right now in gyms, kind of on the East Coast, I believe it is. I'll right at this point, I'll say kind of across America, that nudity in gyms is becoming more restricted. Like with within the rooms, within the changing areas. Like most a lot of gyms are going to these tiles where you can step in, kind of like a stall. Okay. You can step in and change so no one has to see you.

SPEAKER_04 49:36

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 49:37

And nudity is kind of being phased out of locker rooms. Have you seen I wish I had the uh the article pulled up, but I just remembered it. My buddy uh Jason was talking about it.

SPEAKER_00 49:47

But I I'm unfamiliar with this.

SPEAKER_03 49:49

It's just really interesting, like, thought. Do you is that something you see, or is nudity in like the gyms that you go to? Is nudity still pretty like commonly practiced out in the open locker room?

SPEAKER_00 50:01

So when I go to my personal gym for when I want to go work out in the locker room, I and I actually I don't think I've ever in my whole entire life of going into gyms and working out, I've never seen a fully naked woman.

SPEAKER_03 50:21

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

I've never seen someone fully nude. Now uh the gym that I work in is is different. Um but you know why it's different. Yep. And I'm not gonna I'm not gonna go too much into it because I don't want to give like too much of our personality.

SPEAKER_03 50:40

Yeah, we'll we'll we'll keep our we'll keep our work stuff separate.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

Work stuff separate, but but that cut that has to come into play because there's a there's a factor to that that makes it a little different. So I see nude people in there pretty often.

SPEAKER_03 50:53

Yeah. I would say I see nude people in in work locker room more than like a public pool locker room that I've been in. Yeah. I've changed in the pool locker room up in. I've changed in that pool locker room, and uh there's a dude in there, he gave me the weirdest side eye. He was like what? I just dropped my shorts and I'm like, like shower, bro. But he gave me the side eye like this and then stepped into the the the urinal stall or the um toilet stall, you know, to change. And I just was like and that was last year.

SPEAKER_00 51:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 51:31

And so I I don't know, it's just kind of odd to me that even in spaces that are currently designed that's where you go to change. There's nothing there's nothing weird going on in there. I'm dropping my pants, hopping in the shower and putting shorts on and going about my business.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

Yeah, I don't think that's weird, especially because that's a place where you're supposed to do it. Like it's it's encouraged, it's allowed. It's not weird to go into a locker room, take your clothes off, and then shower and change. But But yeah, I don't I I've never actually seen it. But then again, I I really I think that there is a difference between men and women in that regard. And um there might of course be some physiological, like the mental, you know, because men and women's brains are differently, and and how we interact with how women and women interact are different than how men and men interact. Yeah, so that's probably a factor, but I think a lot of it, I think, just a thought, I'm not a fucking scholar on this or anything, but I think a lot of it really comes from society and and and how the different genders are quote unquote supposed to act.

SPEAKER_03 52:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 52:47

And it's just never really acceptable for women to be doing that. Now, if I did at the same time though, if I did walk into a locker room and I saw someone that was changing and that was nude, okay. Yeah. Like it's a locker room. Exactly. I'm not gonna be shocked by that at all. Also, I've seen again, I've seen plenty of naked people. What's one more? It's fine. It's just a body.

SPEAKER_03 53:11

There's a there's a great quote. I don't remember who said it, but nudity becomes unremarkable when you see it all the time. It loses its like, oh my god, did you see the naked guy? Yeah, he's naked, like whoopdy do.

SPEAKER_00 53:28

Like, cool, good for him. Where's he going? Well, yeah, some more fun.

SPEAKER_03 53:31

At this point, if I saw a naked person out in the woods, I'd be like, oh man, there's another one of us. Where's he going? Is it do you have another trail? Do you like podcasts? Yeah. Do you want to come over here? Speaking of like men and women and the differences of men and women, do you think that the act of stripping off and being naked and going out and going on a nude hike is different for men and women? And I'm and I have my answer, but I just I'm curious about your what you think of that.

SPEAKER_00 54:05

I think it could be. But I think it depends on the individual. You know, um for me and and I guess I can really only speak for myself, but a as a woman, I'm I'm fine with doing it, going out there, like I I don't feel like I would feel threatened or anything like that, but I'm also a little different because I and I'm I'm not saying I'm invincible and I'm not saying that it's not possible for bad things to happen to me, but for the most part, I'm a I'm a little different than the average woman because I'm uh I'm very strong and I have I have a certain set of skills. I do know how to defend myself properly, so m most of the time I don't feel threatened, and that's not saying that I haven't been in situations where I have felt that way, and it really makes you it makes you check yourself for sure. But uh for the most part I don't feel that way and again I don't I don't feel some type of way about being nude around men because I just don't care as long as you're not a creep. Yeah. You know, like I might not I might not go and do what we did actually I wouldn't. I wouldn't go do what and what we did with someone that I didn't know where it's just one-on-one and something like that, but um in a in a group setting where there's a lot of people, yeah, no, that's I mean that's fine. That's fine. No, I don't think anyone's gonna come and bother me and or anything like that. And if if it is in a group setting and everyone agrees that we're here for this reason, then you're you're probably already past the vibe check. You're not gonna be one of those weird people that are just there for the looky lose.

SPEAKER_03 55:51

When you can you can tell right off to the people that say at like a nude beach who are there for the right reasons.

SPEAKER_04 55:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:59

They show up, they find their spot on the beach, they strip off, and they're really not looking around and bobbing, you know, cruising around, chatting, being weird. Um the ones that you have to w watch out for are the guys that are like fully clothed, standing there with their sunglasses, just looking around, focusing on people being creepy. And in my opinion, we as a user group need to be better at policing our own areas. And when we see bullshit like that, calling it out and saying, hey dude, that's not cool, you know, this ain't the place for it. Get lost.

SPEAKER_00 56:42

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 56:43

Because that just ruins ruins it for the people that are using it for good, and it ruins it for any future people that would like to come and try and have an experience that might change their life. Um, so yeah, we and we talked about men and women and the differences perceptions too out on the trail of someone coming across, say you, if you were walking naked, a woman, is perceived less dangerous, less of a threat, I guess, from a man. Like, from my stance, I'm not afraid of going hiking and having some person either assault me or molest me while I'm out on the trail. But for a woman, that's different. That that's a main concern. And I've been seeing this hashtag not every man, but a man. Like it's not every man, but it's enough men that every woman has had a negative experience, you know, of inappropriateness or fear or being uncomfortable. So it's we as men need to do better too at helping create, make a better space, a better area for people to come in, especially women or someone that doesn't uh feel safe, you know? I don't know. Um what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 58:13

Well, I mean, I I I obviously agree, but I think that it I'm gonna take it just a little step farther. I mean, I think that everyone needs to do their part. Yeah. You know, in in a in a perfect world, everyone would do their part. I mean, granted, it's not a perfect world, but you know, if if everybody, if every man stood up and defended the, you know, the the weaker people when they can, or even women too. You know, women, women are strong as well. And exactly, yeah. You're allowed to also, as a woman, stand up and and and defend someone that's weaker than you. That's being a good strong person, you know, but but I I definitely think that men need to do a better job of you know, help helping helping your fellow woman with with these issues. But then also, women, you gotta do your job too.

SPEAKER_04 59:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:03

You know, we can't we can't be out there falsely accusing people of heinous crimes, and you can't sit here and tell me that that doesn't happen. Yeah. Because it does. Yep. You know, and this is this is where I might lose some people, but you know, uh there was that whole movement a few years ago. I believe it was called like Believe Every Woman or something to that effect. Was it Me Too? Not necessarily Me Too. Uh it was di it was after Me Too. It was it was like right after Me Too. Like Me Too came first, and I completely understand why it happened, but then there was a movement afterwards, and I want to say it was something like Believe Every Woman, and and my myself as a woman, I was like, you can't do that shit. You can't do that because people are flawed. Yeah. And someone out there is going to take advantage of their situation, which is, you know, being a woman, you got into a situation with a dude and you didn't like how it turned out, or whatever the situation was, and therefore you can use that as a weapon against him. And and that's not okay either. Like I have a lot of I have a lot of single guy friends that have all said the same thing, pretty much, which is I am a little bit afraid to date.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:23

I'm afraid to put myself out there to an extent because what if something happens? And they're all really good dudes. They're my friends, I love them, and I know that they're not bad guys. Yeah. But they're and that's why they have this fear because they don't want to be perceived that way because that's not who they are. You know, but but we've got to do a better job of helping one another because we are symbiotic. You know, and and if your ideology doesn't jive with the fact that men and women are different, that's okay. You're allowed to think and believe what what you do. I think my opinion is that there are differences between us, physically, mentally, but we need one another. We we counterbalance one another. Without the one, you can't have the other. And we we've gotta work together. We we are we are both we're we're we're two parts of one home. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:21

Yeah, it's an interesting interesting line to walk.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:26

Between those two uh the two discussions, because you can go too far on one side and too far on the other. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:34

Yeah, yeah. Not everyone's gonna get it, and and again, that's okay. You don't have to believe what I believe. That's that is just what I believe.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:43

That we've we we've gotta work together.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:46

We've seen it play out. It works better when we work together. Yeah, yeah. I want to hear your thoughts on like if someone can't handle nudity respectfully, like, they shouldn't be in the space. As a woman, what would you like in your mind if there was a creeper at the beach or on the trail, what would make you feel like um safe and it's being handled? You know what I mean? And not that you can't handle yourself or anything, but like if you were at the beach and some creeper was talking to you, what kind of reaction, I guess, in your mind would you like to see from the people around you?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:29

Ideally, uh, you know, yeah, you wanna you would want to see people come and rally around you and and and let you know that you're okay. But for me, I mean I would I would handle it myself immediately.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:42

But I don't have a problem with that. Yeah. I'm I'm not I'm not someone that likes confrontation because I just want everyone to be happy and have a good time, but I'm also not afraid to stand up to myself for myself, and I'm not afraid to tell somebody off. Yeah, like that doesn't bother me at all. So like I'll do it when I have to. So I would handle it, but you know, maybe some you know, maybe walking away from the situation, someone being like, Yeah, fuck that guy, and then giving me a high five or something. Like, hey, do you want to choke this beer with me? Absolutely, sir. You know, in my mind, that would be ideal.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:14

That's the ideal situation, dude. When we were down there, that dude, I betcha he would have done that. Yeah. That dude with the dreads, he would have been like, hell yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:21

Hello, your brother guy. He was down.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:26

Yeah, I mean, it's so interesting. Did this experience change? I I think I already know the answer to this, so did this experience change anything in the way that you see men like out in nature in nude settings specifically?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:43

No, I don't really think it changed. I I would say it pretty much remained the same because I'm well aware that men there are there's tons of good guys out there. There's tons of them, and they are completely capable of being like you and being like all those other guys that we saw out there. Just they were just minding their own business, having a good time, no one bothered anybody. You know, they're they're just people trying to live their life, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:15

That's totally okay. But I do want to kind of go back a little bit to the perception of men and women, because you're absolutely right. So that is sort of like a flip on it where maybe men are encouraged to that or are allowed to exhibit certain behaviors and when women tend to maybe be told they shouldn't. The flip side of it is that yes, if you do see a naked woman out somewhere, you're probably not gonna be threatened by it. But if you do see a naked man out somewhere, there is that there could very well be that sense of of like, what the fuck is he doing? Why is he naked? And and and it'll it elicits a different reaction.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:57

It does.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:58

You know, and and what do you what do you think about that as a man? It's also not a creep.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:05

I understand it. I understand why there is that reaction to naked men, because men have done a lot of damaging PR work for the male species. Um and it also makes me kind of sad because it's like just like when we were walking back up from the hike, there was that mother and daughter that were coming down the trail. And whenever I have interactions with that, they weren't scared, but you could tell that like they were very uneasy that there was naked people.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:41

A little bit, you know, they handled it nice, but you could still be able to do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:44

There was that underlying tone. I was like, Oh, I'm just here. I'm trying to like be polite and nice. That's usually my thing, is like I want to be super polite, I want to be as non threatening as possible. Yeah, like I'm having a good time, I'm out here in nature. Like I can cover up.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:02

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:02

Like if that's what you need. But yeah, I and I hope that the way that I present myself online and in person presents like a a safe demeanor for people to feel comfortable. And even like if they come up to me to say, Hey, could you put something on?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:22

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:22

That they feel comfortable enough to even say that. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:25

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:26

Because I'm not out here trying to ruin anyone else's outdoor experience. It's not just my land. It's everyone. So we have to like contort or could we have to what word am I looking for? We have to contort?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:39

Not contort.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:40

Um coexist?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:44

No. Uh cohabitate.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:47

We have to do something where we're both like getting along.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:50

I gave you two really good C words, asshole.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:54

The uh cohabitate. We gotta cohabitate. That was a great one. We're just gonna jump over that. I wish I knew what you wanted to do. Damn, the Lexapro's kicking in.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:04

My brain just like yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:08

Oh man, that's great. Dude, it always I'll have brain dumps like that where I'll be talking and my thought leaves, and I'm like, oh.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:17

Oh, it happens to me too. It happens to me too. I have so many moments where I look like I'm fucking stupid. I understand why people think I'm fucking stupid. Like I I it's like I get it. I get it. It's okay, it's fine. I dummy.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:32

Yeah. Well, yeah, we have to handle ourselves in a way that's respectful so we don't upset anyone and everyone can coexist.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:43

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And being in those spaces where, you know, it might be clothing optional and if someone if someone comes into that by accident and they don't, you know, they don't see the sign, they come into it, and maybe they are some someone that is put off by it. Yeah, you you would hope that they would have the comfort to come up and say, hey, excuse me, can you know hey, we came down here by accident, but like, you know, can you can you cover up? Okay, sure, that's fine.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:15

And I I love moments like that because it gives you an opportunity to tell them about what's going on and give them some true information because a lot of people see stuff like this and they go, Oh, it's it's a bunch of hippies and swingers and they're swapping wives, doing all sorts of stuff down there. That's yeah, not what happens. Yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe you know, on and off here and there, but a majority is just people wanting to connect with nature and get out and hike and be in the water and sand.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:49

Yeah. Um, yeah, so some questions that I had typed up going and it and it it kind of works perfectly what we were just talking about with the dynamic of of men and women. Uh so with my upbringing, because I grew up with brothers and male cousins, and I have I've had a lot of male friends throughout my life, I've already established that comfort with the opposite sex and being naked around them or just sharing a lot of personal spaces. So, how did you feel going into the hike with a female not growing up the same way that I did? Because you grew up with only brothers, and I don't I don't think you really had a whole lot of female cousins growing up, but I could be wrong.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:36

I grew up with a a handful of female cousins. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:39

I wasn't sure how many.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:41

A handful.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:42

I got I got some female cousins growing up. Um so I was not, you know, unfamiliar with nudity, but like and nudity at my house wasn't treated as like a thing. It was just like, you know, you you take a shower, you get dressed, or you don't. I'd like go run around in the yard naked. So it wasn't really like restricted. It got restrictive for me. Oh, it kind of how we all go through this thing where oh, I'm a certain age, it's it's like not appropriate for me to like just change in the parking lot anymore. I have to like put a towel on and cover up or no one can see you. Yeah, yeah. I don't even remember what the uh question was.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:27

Well, how did you feel going into the hike with me as a female? Damn, I'm way off. That wasn't but no, no, it's no, that's good because I I I like I said I knew that we've we have because we've talked about each other's families a bunch, but I wasn't I wasn't really sure if you had a lot of the that female interaction for brothers.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:50

I did, but like not a lot of nude interaction. Okay, like yeah, I'd go skinny dipping like with my my cousins when we were younger, and then like my cousin when I was seven years ago hunting, he's one of my hunting partners, so we'd go like turkey hunting and I'd strip off. Yeah, but the male-female relationship, it was like you don't look at that nudity is like something to be covered up, and then you know, it's for sex. You know what I mean? Yeah, um so by putting it to me by putting nudity up on this pedestal, it really had me fixated on it growing up. Um and so when I came into this just a few years ago, that was one of the biggest freedoms that I experienced was like desexualizing the human body. Like I could see a a naked woman and it not be this like, ooh, yeah, oh she's so pretty. It's like just another just just another person. Yeah. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 1:11:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:59

Um and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:03

So So you you so you weren't worried about it at all, like, oh yeah, this is my female friend.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:07

No, no, I was more worried about sending you the notes for the podcast than I was seeing seeing you naked or you seeing me naked. I was like, oh my god, I have to send her these notes, they need to look good, and like yeah, so so going on the hike, I'm like, well, she's either gonna like love it or hate it, and we're not gonna talk about it again.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:28

So oh no, we're talking about it. We're not even just talking about it, we're recording it with audio and visual.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:35

Yeah, again, like triggers everyone. You uh you presented yourself with like such confidence and you weren't concerned about anything. So I really didn't like have a concern.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:48

Cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:49

Now if I took another another woman who mu was like scared or really like I don't know if I can do this, it would be I would do the same sort of thing. But I would have them like just walk behind me. Like that way they don't feel exposed or you know, overseen, I guess.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:08

Um that was one of the things when Olivia and I started hiking together. I would let her just walk behind me. That way she can have her own little moment, you know, in nature. And I'm just up front looking for anything that we need to be aware of. Yeah. Um so yeah, I I wasn't worried about seeing you naked or you seeing me naked. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:32

Cool. I'm glad that you were comfortable as well because I was like, this is fine. You know. Well yeah, I didn't care.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:40

I might be the odd one, but I'm always like, this is so great.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:43

Oh, we're gonna have such a blast. Oh my god. I felt the same way. It was it was it was super fun and I can't wait to go back and do it again. Um and maybe we can convince some other people to try it too. Yeah. Because it was it was so it was so much fun just to go out there and just just have that homie day and and all that. But then coming back after I I got home, I remember coming home, and I did, I had this high that I was riding for the rest of the evening, and I remember I was sitting out in the living room in my my big old beanbag chair, and I'd still had my shirt off, and I was just in some basketball shorts, and I was just chilling in that chair, and man, I was just straight vibe, and I was like, I feel alive, yeah. Like, I really did. I felt so good because I was outside in the sun, you know, really truly basking in it because I didn't have a shirt on, thank God. And I got exercise and I got to hang out with my dude, and we had great conversations, we got to see a lot of cool shit, and it was like, what yeah, this was awesome. It was it was all the ingredients that led to this feeling of just that was awesome. Yeah, I feel good, I feel happy in this moment, at least for right now. Yep, yeah. So that I I I thought I was great. So it would be nice to try to get some other people that maybe are are looking for that or just want to try it. And and even if they go and do it and maybe they don't get that same feeling, that's okay. Maybe they'll get something else out of it. Yeah. You know, as long as you're open to the experience. Yeah, yeah. I think that there's there's always a benefit.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:38

Yeah, and I think it's really healthy too to do things that do things safely that make you feel uncomfortable or push up against your boundaries that just allow you to expand yourself a little bit more. Um and I think that's part of the process for a lot of people is that expansion of like, ooh, I don't know if I can do this. Like standing at the top of a high dive right before you jump off. And then you jump off and you're fine. Everything's great. You had a fun time. But the moments climbing up that ladder and standing there looking over, you're like, oh crap.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:12

It's like don't think, just jump.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:14

Just do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:14

Just do it. Just do it. Just just go for it.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:17

When we were putting on our clothes and like kind of hiking back up, what were did you have any like thoughts about the hike or I mean I really I I would have loved to have just sat there where we were sitting and talking.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:33

I would have loved to have just sat there for longer because we were just talking about all kinds of of of of stuff. And we usually do. We always go in these these these philosophical tangents and talk about history and religion, or religion's something that we talk a lot a lot about. Um but yeah, we were we were just having these really good conversations and like I just love I love doing that. And doing it out in nature too, just being outside. I just like being outside.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:02

Oh, it was it was super good. Yeah, it was fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:05

Did you have did you have any other questions that you wanted to ask or yeah, so the the the next little little tidbit I had here, so I again you know I grew up with with brothers and stuff like that, and it was it was totally normal. But then of course at a at a certain age there started to be this guided separation, which I understand, but you know, it was it was still the well now you guys have to do this and you have to do that, and yeah, you can't do this together and you can't do that together, and they started getting treated differently, and I started getting treated differently. And so my question to you is as someone that has two kids that are of different genders, how do you and your wife think that you guys are gonna start looking at that when they start to become young men, uh you know, a young man and a young woman? Like, do you think that you guys are gonna start separating them or are you going to introduce them into life, you know, how how are you guys gonna do it with with having with having the boy and the girl and that's nudely and then nudity, yeah. I'm I'm curious.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:25

So right now they're both young enough that like my daughter she doesn't even clock nudity. It's just she's naked, she rips off her clothes, she runs around our yard naked. My son is entering the stage where he is clothed most of the time, and you know, if we go to like tank variety, he might strip off. But he's kind of getting an age where he's like, I'll stay covered up until like we're at home and the blinds are shut and I can just be free and no one else is around.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:58

Um, and basically when we started this, we explained to the kids that you guys can be naked, it's clothing optional. Our house and and backyard area is clothing optional. So whatever you feel like doing, that's up to you. But when we have guests over, you have to be clothed because not everyone sees this way of life um as the correct way to live. Um, especially with kids involved. People get a little bit weird. Understandably. Understandably.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:32

Very, very understandable.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:33

But yeah, just explaining like body parts. We use the correct terms, penis, vagina. Like, they know the body parts, they know what's acceptable behavior towards them. Uh in in in terms of nudity. Like if someone tells you, I'll keep this secret, don't tell your parents, they know. Right. This isn't a safe person. Strange or danger kids. Yeah. This person's asking me for pictures of myself.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:04

Mmm, red flag.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:06

We don't do that.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:06

Yeah, I don't do that.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:07

You know what I mean? So it's like it's an interesting discussion around nudity with the kids because there's an added element of like unsafe nudity, this is what it looks like.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:21

Safe nudity, safe non-sexual family nudity, this is what it looks like. Playing in the yard, going swimming, basically anything you can think of that you can do naked at your house, that's that's basically it. Um I don't know if that answered your question, but like the the girl and boy aspect of it, they both know what the body parts look like, and they're both really unfazed. Um like when you go to Tang Faraday Falls, there's naked men, sometimes there's naked women. They are so unbothered by naked bodies that it's just oh that's a that's a guy, and like some penises are longer, some boobs are bigger, you know, some people have scars. They they they they see it and they understand, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:17

I am curious to and and and this is off stemming from the fact that I don't have kids and I'm never going to have kids. So as someone that is rearing young children, I'm you know, I'm I was just curious as to like how you guys thought you were gonna handle it. Or I even wonder if there's gonna be a point where the two of them come to the conclusion by themselves of either I don't want to do this because I'm uncomfortable, or I no longer want to do this with my sibling because it's my sibling. And now I'm at an age where I think I either think that that's weird or other people are telling me that that's weird. Because at some point they are gonna start getting a lot of input from their peers. You get naked with your sister? Exactly. And it sounds, yeah, it sounds weird. Fuck it. Okay, and we're back. Awesome. Are we recording?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:14

We're we are recording and we're recording on there, so excellent.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:19

We're gonna we're gonna just We had an uh uh We had a minor minor issue, but we're good now.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:27

Okay, where were we?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:29

So I was asking you I was asking you about how you and your wife are planning to navigate the world of nudity and potentially even naturism uh with your children and how you guys were yeah, if you were gonna like uh have a guided separation between the two of them. Or if if at some point I you know, I'm curious to to know if at some point uh if if if either one of them come to a stage where they no longer feel comfortable being nude around their family, um, or you know, if the kids are like, well, I don't wanna I don't wanna be naked with I don't wanna be naked with my brother or my sister. Yeah. Or if they're if they're gonna be like, yeah, so we go and do this as a family, and it's totally not weird. Because it's not. But like but you know how it is, especially when you're becoming a teenager, there's a lot It's difficult for both boys and girls to go through that transition. So I'm just I'm I'm curious as to how that how that's gonna take place, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:36

They we plan to they will keep changing in front of each other, being naked around each other or us, whatever, whatever they feel comfortable with. And if naturally they kind of are like, ooh, this is kind of weird. Like, I that's you don't have to do everything that I'm doing.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:55

Like if if it makes you feel uncomfortable, I don't want you to do it. Um so that'll be kind of left up to them and how they're feeling about it, and however that shakes out. Um I guess we'll see how that plays out, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:10

Um the other thing that's interesting about that question, I'll add a an extra layer, is we homeschool our children and we have homeschool uh like a co-op that we go to, and those people come over to our house, and and it's kind of funny because I have my back sitting area, which is like this fenced off private area for us to like bathe in the sun or sit and smoke weed and talk, whatever we want to do. Um and there's a sign up on the wall that says clothing optional area. Sweet. And so I like all these homeschool moms come over and they're like, Oh, what's this there area back here? Oh, what the hell? What is that?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:50

What do you guys do?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:52

No one said anything, but uh one of Olivia's friends walked back there and was like looking around, she looked at the sign real good and was like, hmm. But she's German, so Oh yeah, they don't care. I'm thinking she's fine.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:07

I've noticed I've noticed that in my time of working where I do, because we do have we do have people that come in and use the facility that were not born here. They are from other countries, and a lot of Europeans or you know, the Asian cultures uh d are just very accustomed to shared nude spaces. And so I see a lot of those people that weren't born here that definitely have more of a sense of comfort with it than compared to people that were born here, which I think is interesting because it's it really just comes back to it's it's how you grow up, it's the culture, it's what you're told is okay and and and what's not okay, and how you can just live in that world and just just you're just there, you know, it doesn't have to be a weird thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:02

You know.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:03

It's very interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:04

Which kind of that actually goes pretty well into my next question is uh do you think if children grew up with a better understanding of anatomy and biology and if they're grounded in that sense of respect for themselves and for others, do you think that nudity wouldn't be such a faux pas?

SPEAKER_03 1:26:23

I definitely think it wouldn't be such a big deal. Um, but the mess again, the messaging that we've gotten growing up has really put us in a place where specifically in our country nudity is a big issue. Well we've got to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:45

We started we started because of religious freedom, ironically. But that religious freedom was still you had this whole Puritan movement.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:55

And there it is in the word, Puritan, like pure, you you can't be tainted, you can't and there was this whole the the the foundation of it all is of these dare I say quote unquote Christian values, and that's not exactly how I wanted to present that, but you get what I'm saying though.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:19

Yeah, and and I will say too, I don't have a problem with religion or like when I say Christian Christian values or Christian upbringing, I don't have like this bitterness towards religion or like my upbringing or the church. Um it's just my experiences growing up in the church were different from other people's experiences, and the experiences I had have made me kind of shy away from it, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:53

Um that's all I'm saying. So I'm not anti or pro. I want to throw that out there, guys.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:59

Yeah, and it's Same. I don't care I don't care what you believe or don't believe. It's just you know that's been kind of the foundation of the morals, you know, that's been presented here in in our country. It's you know, you y you have to be decent. You gotta you gotta do everything a certain way. So therefore nudity and maybe maybe even premarital sex or anything of that might be considered lewd behavior masturbation, it's it's it's always been kind of frowned upon.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:32

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:33

Which which I just personally disagree. I don't think there's anything wrong with being nude. There's nothing wrong with masturbation, there's nothing wrong with enjoying sex for pleasure.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:43

Just being just being a normal human. Having a normal human experience.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:47

Completely normal. In my again, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:50

Mm-hmm. What was it like for you personally having other naked people, other people see you naked? Again, not I'm guessing not a big deal.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:04

Um Yeah, even though I didn't know who the people were, it because I was in a space that was that that was accepting of it, and it wasn't gonna be something that was out of the blue. Like people expect to see it there, so why would it be a problem?

SPEAKER_04 1:29:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:24

You know, so I was fine with it. And even though it was people that I didn't know, it's okay. Because ultimately, like I said, I was I felt safe, I was good, I was with you, and I'm never gonna see those people again, probably. Unless maybe I go back, I go back and I see them.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:42

Unless we go back.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:42

And that's fine, and that's cool too. But like realistically, like, am I ever gonna see these people again? Probably not. Am I ever gonna see the Amazon driver again? Probably not. Because he's never gonna come back here now.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:53

Well, too, it's like um like if there's a if I'm naked and someone else is naked, you're on like a level playing field. Oh yeah. Um and all the fears and everything that all the trappings that we wear and the clothing that we wear and the masks, when you strip all that away, you're just truly yourself, and there's a different connection, like when we were sitting on the beach in the shade and the wind was blowing around, and we were just talking. That was the most like down-to-earth real fucking conversation, and like we were just having a blast, and the nudity wasn't the main focus. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:36

I forgot about it.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:37

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:38

I there like there were most of the hike, actually, I didn't think about it at all.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:44

Was that weird for you to forget that you were naked with someone else?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:47

No. I didn't think it was weird. I just and it I honestly I didn't I didn't really think about that until now. Now that we're re going back and recanting on everything, I didn't realize that I had stopped thinking about it, but I definitely did. Definitely there was a certain point where it just was like this is just hanging out now. I've we're naked, oh shit.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:10

There's no yeah, there's no assumptions, there's no like surprise. This isn't what it is, you know what I mean? It's like what I try and tell the like the guys that message me. Oh, what do you do on the hikes? You get like nasty- No, dude. I'm walking around sweating my ass off, walking up some drainage in the middle of a desert. There's nothing sexy going on, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:31:33

Unless you're into that kind of thing, I guess. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:36

I'm I'm out here for good vibes, good mental clarity, like I'm not about it. And so it's it's always interesting to see how people react. Um we're gonna like wrap up. We've been going for a while. And then we have the thing die.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:58

Um still going.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:00

Still fucking going.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:01

If you had to sum up this whole experience, what would you say? And like if there's someone listening that wants to try it or thinks that they would like to try it, but don't kind of know where and are thinking about starting out, what in your mind should they do as someone you as someone from the outside who's just kind of had their first hike experience?

SPEAKER_00 1:32:23

I would say if you are someone listening that whatever your goal is, it doesn't matter. But if it pertains to trying nude recreation in any way, shape, or form, I would recommend doing some research into the different organ you know, organizations, and there's a lot of social media groups, as I'm discovering through you, that are safe spaces for you to inquire and figure out where you can go and do these activities and figure out the people that you can meet up to try these activities with. Like there's that there's definitely the means to locate the right people. You just you have to know where to look, and and I think that might be the hardest part is is getting that initial jump off of what's actually a good source versus a bad source.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:18

Um, but they are out there, they're out there. You can you can reach out to people. You've had pretty good luck reaching out to a lot of different people in this in this world, and they've been nothing but you know, supportive and kind and welcoming.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:33

As as far as I see as just someone that's your friend. So yeah, just just go out there, you know, put yourself out there and be willing to make some new connections and find a place that you feel comfortable and and just go and try it. And even even if maybe you're not ready to go on a hike or go to a resort or do something like that, maybe try going out in your yard and just garden topless.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:02

Or sunba just sunbathe. You don't maybe don't even do anything yet. Just go outside and sit naked and see how it feels and just think about what that does for you. And then baby steps, you can start incorporating maybe some yoga or something. I don't know, whatever, whatever your jam is, but but go go look for the safe spaces that work for you. Yeah. And and have have don't be afraid of having conversation either. I think is really big. We need to converse more as a society about what we think and what we feel in a respectful productive way.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:39

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:40

If only we had that more.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:42

Yeah. Well, and just people being more open about it.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:47

Because like by not talking about it and hiding it, everyone still has the assumptions that nude recreation is just a bunch of people doing weird stuff out there. Um, which that's the farthest thing from the truth. You also said something about um like when you feeling internally your emotions. This is more about how the experience makes you feel than how you look or how your body looks. It's more about, oh, I'm out here, I get like I have anxiety and going out into nature, it doesn't stop the anxiety, but it helps me. It gives me like an extra little boost, like you were talking about, you know. So going out in the nature helps me do that. Doesn't cure me of it, but it gives me another outlet um in my toolkit of stuff to do for my mental health. So that's why I do it, and yeah, it's it's anyone that's looking for this experience, start slow, start in your house. Start by stripping naked and taking a shower and then stay naked after the shower. Maybe look at yourself in the mirror. A lot of people don't look at themselves in the mirror.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:02

A lot yeah, and then a lot of people some people don't want to because they don't like what they what they look like, and and I understand that, and but you know, I and this is definitely the fitness professional coming out in me, but it you know, it but if you don't like something about yourself a lot of it you can't change. There's some things you can't change, of course, but you still have the control and the ability to change a lot about you and not just physically, uh and to be let's be fair, not just physically, but it comes it uh it it does come into the the mental and emotional part too. Like it's it it's not always easy. It rarely is easy to fix any of those things that you might not be happy with with yourself, but it doesn't mean it's impossible. You just sometimes you just have to prioritize you know what you really want. And if you want to be someone that is happier with less anxiety, definitely one hundred percent being outside and moving your body are are two things. I agree with you. Just they help with my anxiety too. I also I mean I'm not gonna lie, like I have a shit ton of anxiety. And I combat that with exercise and being outside.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:26

It I I feel the same way with you. It's like whenever I get back from doing either exercise or being outside, or if I get to have the combination of both, like I feel so good.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:40

And it it's like it it's makes it makes up for all of the like the ten shitty feelings I had earlier in that day. That that trumps all of them. Yeah. Hands down for me. So if you're someone that is struggling with mental health in any shape, way or form, like I do encourage you to try it.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:59

For sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:00

And if it's not your thing, that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:02

And that's okay too, yeah. But try it and you might surprise yourself.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:06

You just might.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:08

So, last question. Would you do this again?

SPEAKER_00 1:38:11

Oh yeah. When are we going? Let's go, man. Soon. The roof is done. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:16

We're gonna go. Let's go, man. Maybe we'll get some monsoons to fill up the water at Tam Verde and have a badass time.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:22

That would be fun.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:23

Um, is there anything else you'd like to bring up or say before we pop off?

SPEAKER_00 1:38:28

Oh man, so many things, but I'm not gonna say any of them. I'm gonna keep them all for next time.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:34

There will be a next time. We went to go record this, and the audio and the wind just didn't turn out the way we wanted. So we will do a nude again together. I actually have a spot that I want to take you on some National Forest Land down to an old homestead that I found, and it's super badass.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:55

Yeah, I'm down.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:56

So we'll schedule that out, and then that'll be a video and and an audio that we do where I don't screw up the audio and we actually have an episode from it.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:05

It was really windy. It was really windy. It was really windy. Very unfortunate because we talked about a lot of cool shit.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:12

Yeah, we'll have to we'll have to rehash it.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:14

We will, or we'll talk about some more crazy shit.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:17

That's actually probably what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:19

Well, thank you so much for coming on and being a part of this journey and the music. Um, you really are an amazing friend, and I you you helped propel me and funnel me towards what this is now. So I really appreciate you.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:36

Number one fan.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:38

Number one fan.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:38

I hold that title.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:39

She will fight you.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:41

I I might. I might.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:44

Uh alright, guys. Have a good one. Alright, that was my conversation with Dieter. I really appreciate her willingness to come on and express herself so openly. What I love about this is it shows that nudity isn't really the main part of the story. It's really about what happens when we let go of shame, fear, and assumptions that we've all been taught to carry. You know, during this conversation we talk about body image, vulnerabilities, social conditioning, and the freedom that comes from simply being yourself without judgment. So whether nude hiking is something you'd ever do or not, I hope this episode encouraged you to think a little bit differently about your relationship with your own body and the stories that our culture has kind of told us to carry about nudity. And if you've enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend, leave a review, and follow the podcast so you don't miss future conversations. Until next time, get naked, be free, and be quiet.