The Biblical Approach to Church Shopping and Leaving Well

In this episode, Jack and Dave explore the nuances of church membership, church shopping, conflict resolution, and how to transition well when leaving a church. They emphasize the importance of biblical principles, humility, and generosity in church life and leadership.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Well, welcome back to another episode of the Good Men podcast. Here we are, Pastor Dave. Where in the world are you today?

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Jack. We are here and ready to go. Where in the world are you, Jack?

SPEAKER_03 0:12

I'm where I always am. Uh in my home office. I never leave. Often I get home on a Sunday after church and I don't leave until Thursday or Friday. I just inside the thing.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Can I just help you? And this is my I was raised by a Nazi grammar. So as a as a son of a Nazi grammar, when you say the word often, it's um mispronounced. And my mother, if she's not gonna listen to good men in a million years, I'll probably send her this podcast so she can actually realize that I'm standing up for the pronunciation is often.

SPEAKER_03 0:46

Really?

SPEAKER_01 0:47

The T is silent, yeah, it's a silent T. Which which would then go, why's the T there? Um but look, welcome to the English language. I just need to make that very, very clear. And I'm I'm gonna send it to my mother and she's gonna be very proud.

SPEAKER_03 0:59

Well, if we're playing that game, uh you just referred to a Nazi grammar, and I thought you were talking about like your mother's mother being from you know Germany in the middle 20th century. Well, you meant with grammar Nazi.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Seriously, Jack, you don't have to have there's Nazis everywhere. Well, they don't have to be from Germany in the mid-last century.

SPEAKER_03 1:19

Well, that's true. They're around in 2025 and 2026. But the point is that you meant to say grammar Nazi, not Nazi grammar.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Look, my mum's gonna be proud with me on some areas and then not so proud. She loves, I can do no wrong though in a while.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

One column is big and one column is small out of those, what she is and is not proud of. There's a small column and a large column. But nevertheless, I'm gonna leave that.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

I'm just gonna leave that alone, Jack.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

Where in the world are you today, Dave?

SPEAKER_01 1:46

I'm actually in I'm in the good life offices. I don't have an office now because we've destroyed it. So I'm I'm in the I'm in the front office, which is otherwise known as Pat's office, and uh hunker hunkering down.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

Okay, well, let's do this. Let's let's talk church church membership. Uh leaving, finding, relocating all of all of those things. And uh maybe just what we're talking about off air. Do you want to touch on that? You know, it's this whole idea of church shopping or or finding a church fit is such a uh a modern concept, right? Really, since the invention of the motor vehicle.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Yeah. So um look, biblical times, you couldn't go church shopping because there was only one in your town, there was one, and then all the resources were there to actually make disciples and then plant more churches. Let's get across the globe. Every town, every city, every everyone needed to hear the gospel. And so you couldn't you couldn't get offended and leave the church and go. Like if you were forced to actually do biblical conflict well. Now, along the years, and there'll be people have different uh thoughts on this whole concept, but through the years, um, church splits have happened, and therefore sometimes they become just different denominations, many denominations was someone that just got offended and started, and but yet there was an apostolic calling on their life, and so they they they they went for it, and some have been fantastic and some not so. But if you're able to drive down the road and check out some other churches, the difficult thing is in a especially a very westernized kind of world, in a consumeristic kind of world, if I don't like the service that I've received at that health clinic jack, if I don't like, they don't use alleyai and and have their systems all in structure, all of the things I listen to your podcast, no, just the clips on Instagram. But if they're not actually a clinic for good, I want to get out of there, I'm gonna find a clinic down the road that is for good. So the same with the church, same with coffee, and so if we deal with church like we're consumers, not actually um children of God finding a team and a tribe that we can be a part of, I can raise my family in this, we can grow, and that means we actually are gonna have to deal with stuff along the way when I have um disagreements. I don't just go, well, I'm gonna find a cafe down the road that actually serves what I like, um, or a church down the road that serves what I like. It's a it's a wild concept. I think if we bring in a consumeristic mentality to church, it messes us up. And we miss the opportunities to grow through the dealing with the difficult things.

SPEAKER_03 4:33

Right. Yeah, I mean it's interesting. The the the toxic version of that is well, I'm here and I'm gonna tolerate and put up with things and I'm not gonna go anywhere. And I know that's been something that's uh come up in our world once or twice. We've chosen to be around and it's gonna be pretty hard to get rid of us. But that doesn't having a uh having a commitment to something doesn't mean we tolerate poor doctrine or poor behavior or anything of that nature, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:02

Well, hopefully not. We're hoping that we're gonna live by the principles of the word of God, and the word of God's actually very clear on how to handle conflict and disagreement. It's actually very, very clear. Um, and so sometimes people look for conflict, people actually find problems. And if you're in any situation, if you're looking for problems, God will show you sorry, the enemy will show you lots. The enemy's gonna show you lots if you're looking in your spouse for problems. And there are people that want to whinge about their spouse, and I have no idea why. I want to speak up to my wife, I want to actually encourage my wife, I want to talk her up, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I want to build her up in Jesus' name. But same with the church. So I'm I'm looking for good things, but it doesn't mean that I gloss over. Like that's isn't perfect. So what I want to do is I want to focus on the good, and then I want to grow alongside her with the other things. And so, um, but then again, in a marriage, you're not gonna deal with abuse, I'm not gonna put up with abuses, and so you deal with those sorts of things differently. What we've got to watch out for in a commercialized, very trigger-happy generation, that we're not picking things up and oh, this is an abuse. If it's abuse, deal with it. But if it's not an abuse, don't call it abuse. It's actually not. There's many churches that I know where people volunteered to be an intern, then got treated like an intern, then got offended that they got treated like an intern after they volunteered. How many people have said, Lord, use me, and then you got used and went, oh, I can't believe I got used. It's just, it's crazy. Um, there are some people that need to read the book, Ruthless Elimination of Hurry. But there's so many people that should never read their book because they've never hurried on behalf of the kingdom ever. They've not actually stacked up many, many things and need to learn how to do it differently. There's a time for those things, and there's a time to definitely avoid those things. And so I would say working through what are the values? So if you're in a church, how do I build on the values and how do I deal with the things that I struggle with? And then also, if I'm in the season of church shopping, just move town, um, yeah, something terrible's happened, my church is blown up. How do I actually address the issues? And if I don't find it, leave and leave well. But also, how do I find the next church that I can be a part of if I do have options? These are all, and it's got to be based upon values and the word of God, not upon my emotions.

SPEAKER_03 7:40

Right. So, well, let's go there. If uh and I think it is a mark of a godly man is able to have challenging conversations to talk about the deeper, richer things with their pastor and handle things in a godly way. So how do blokes how should blokes think about that type of conversation? If things are getting uh irreparable or irreconcilable, or there's there's a there's a doctrinal issue or a style issue that you just can't get past, and you feel like it's time to move on, how should one do that transition well?

SPEAKER_02 8:16

I I suppose my concern is how many people describe the situation like you've just said, but it's not actually there.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

How many people avoid conflict or do it so terribly that you've been an absolute pain in the neck to deal with that it actually feels way more agitated than it needs to be? So we're talking this is beyond, you mean, but you've been a pork chop, so you've actually pushed people away and made people like, or um you've you've bigged up the problem, or you've actually just you've not actually dealt with it, but it's it's bigged up in your own soul, and you want to avoid conflict. And so we talk about it in those terms, but it's not we haven't actually followed the right steps. I actually think the way that you go about things, Jack, is really um uh is is is really admirable. Um, and as a mate, I feel more comfortable sh shredding you than bigging you up in front of all of this, you know in a huge podcast audience. But um I've got I've got to say, I mean, first up, um, you want to be good.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

We've got the first up, we got the first up.

SPEAKER_03 11:04

Yeah, without question, like yeah, it's it comes really organically and naturally part of it is submission as is ordered throughout the New Testament and the early church, and and then the other part of it is it's the it's the wisdom of Proverbs, it's folly to think that you know everything, right? And none of us want to be associated with fools. So the ability to come at something and go, maybe I'm wrong. Not I think he's wrong, but maybe I'm wrong, or maybe I'm missing, I'm probably missing something. Uh it creates a even even if it is a false premise to begin with, it softens the conversation, it opens the door to ultimately. I don't want to win an argument. I want to end up on the same page so that we can progress. But there'll be blokes who who have all the right intentions.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

Well, I don't. I do not have all none of us have all the context.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

Maybe it's not necessary, but maybe it is. You know, he gives grace to the humble, and and humility is a lifelong pursuit, right? So it's not just tick, I am humble, move on. It's like it's a continued posture, and as a physio, a posture is something that must be sustained, uh at least in a physical sense. Well, same in a spiritual sense. You you uh well a posture is something that must be sustained. You don't just do it once, tick and move on. And the same is true spiritually. As as men, we need to continue to bend the knee and submit to the lordship of Christ. We need to crucify our flesh, we need to submit to our pastors. That that is a continued lifelong pursuit. It's not a tick and flick, just say the words and it's like a magic potion. No, no, it's it has to come from uh the the core of our being.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

Uh primary core doctrine.

SPEAKER_03 16:08

I I will and have submitted on tertiary and often secondary issues, but certainly not primary issues of doctrine.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Right.

SPEAKER_03 16:21

Well, yes, I'm trying to actively change Rebecca's mind on a number of things. Yeah, you know, and look, the reality is, at least in the tertiary issues, none of it is settled, and most of it is, you know, our best guesses. And so I don't particularly care whether I'm right or wrong. It's it's my job to you know come under the apostles' doctrine of my house. And uh if if that's what Beck says, or Dave, uh probably what Dave says first and then what Beck says, uh, and it's a tertiary Well, just for those like Uber complementarians need to make sure I'm aware that it comes from Dave first. Uh but you know, if if that's the case, and it's not a salvific first principles issue, then look, we're just having theology debates at that point.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Right.

SPEAKER_03 17:55

But if if there was something that was core or was uh wrong, and it was time to move on from a church, how how should we now let's say the decision's been made? We've kind of done the toing and froing and coming and going and sought, you know, external counsel or whatever the case may be.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

How do we navigate the the exit transition?

SPEAKER_03 23:53

And so if we do that, if we do that leaving well, we do it quietly, we don't gather. I would suggest it's probably a worthy exercise to uh to to leave on a moment of generosity. That is how I would not that I've had to do it, but that's what I would think and be like, right, there's a line in the sand, I'm giving a gift, I'm parting cleanly. I want to make sure my my I want to make sure that I'm clean, that I'm not carrying things through to the next season. There's something about finishing well. And so personally, we we've decided that if for whatever reason there's a time to move on, we would do so through an offering and close that season out as generously as possible. A generous man makes generous plans and buys generosity, he shall say we want to be known as generous leavers, not those who cause contention.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Look, keep trying to offend me.

SPEAKER_03 26:56

So, how do you how do you find those things, right? Because it you you won't just find them out attending one or two Sundays. So what like, okay, here's an interesting question. What does healthy church shopping actually look like? What are some of the questions, behaviors, uh, opportunities that you should take if you're actually properly church shopping?

SPEAKER_00 27:43

How do you find that though? Like, how do you find that out? Okay. And then from there.

SPEAKER_03 30:01

I'd be thinking about, you know, tithing, contributing to volunteering, finding a small group, like how quickly or slowly do you immerse yourself in those things? Well, uh, that just about wraps up this episode. That's uh a nice meaty one. Any uh final words of wisdom or advice for maybe folks in that transitory season? Maybe they're leaving somewhere or they're looking for somewhere to go.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

What's your uh what's your advice? Amazing.

SPEAKER_03 33:51

Well, thank you, Buster Dave. Appreciate your wisdom and uh listeners. Thank you for tuning in. Feel welcome to share this with a mate who might find it valuable or beneficial, and uh, we'll continue this conversation next episode.