How Great Financial Planners Win with Carl Richards

Behavioral finance legend Carl Richards explains what great financial planners actually get paid for, and why human connection is becoming the most valuable skill in advice.

In this episode of Don’t Shoot the Messenger, Chris Ball sits down with Carl Richards (author of The Behavior Gap and The One-Page Financial Plan, and former New York Times “Sketch Guy”) to talk about the real craft of advice: trust, communication, and meaningful relationships.

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Carl’s community for planners: The Society of Advice → https://www.thesocietyofadvice.com/

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Transcript

From Accidental Start To Fidelity

SPEAKER_01 0:00

So welcome to another episode of Don't Shoot the Messenger. So Carl Richards is one of the most influential voices in behavioural finance and financial planning today. He's the author of the Behaviour Gap and the One Page Financial Plan.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

I applied for what I thought was a security guard job and it ended up being a securities job. And I I didn't honestly didn't even notice the difference. I didn't know the difference. Like for years people were like, could you come talk to our people about that thing you do with Were you writing for your own clients? That thing you said in our meeting, would you mind writing it down and sending it to me so I could share it with my spouse?

SPEAKER_01 0:36

What would you say today? Um We need more real financial planners out in the world telling stories.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Yeah. Because the fake ones are doing a really good job of telling stories and we're losing that battle.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

That's super, super interesting. That's so useful for someone just starting out. It's not kind of a you know a quick hack like you said. So welcome to another episode of Don't Shoot the Messenger, and today I've got a very, very special guest with me, Carl. So Carl Richards is one of the most influential voices in behavioural finance and financial planning today. He's the author of The Behaviour Gap and the One Page Financial Plan, which I really, really enjoyed. Both international bestsellers and translated into multiple languages as I understand. And for over a decade, uh he wrote the famous sketch guy column for the New York Times, simplifying complex money decisions with a Sharpie and a napkin, which we see uh some of the uh the lovely illustrations in the book uh as well. And he's also the creator of Behavior Gap Radio, a podcast of over one million downloads uh and more than a thousand episodes focused on money, behaviour, and meaning. Uh and beyond the book, sketches and podcasts, Carl has deep roots as a CFP. Uh he built and sold an investment business as I understand in his career and continues to shape the profession through education, community, uh, and his advisor focused work. So welcome, Carl. I'm really, really great to uh to have you on uh on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Yeah, thanks, Chris. I'm looking forward to this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Yeah, me too. Um so if it's okay, Carl, I'd really like to start with how you started or wanted to become a financial planner. And I and I've got a you know kind of a bit of a peculiar question. Is it true that you actually apply for a job as a security guard at Fidelity or my source is wrong?

SPEAKER_00 2:34

This is true. I didn't know I was applying uh I didn't know it had anything to do with fidelity, but I I I applied for what I thought was a security guard job, and it ended up being a securities job, and I I didn't honestly didn't even notice the di I didn't know the difference. Um and that ended up being at I ended up landing the job, which tells you a lot about the applicant pool. Um but I uh that job ended up being at Fidelity's Fidelity at the time, Fidelity had two big national call centers, one in Boston and one in Salt Lake City, Utah. And I didn't even know, I mean, I had no idea, I'd never heard the uh the word fidelity. Like I I didn't know any of this stuff. I just and I you know, I so that's that's how I got started was quite by accident, you know, completely by accident. And I spent probably the first 10 years thinking it was a mistake, sort of like Wow, because I I I didn't really care about money. I I but I cared deeply about I I thought I was gonna go into something like organizational behavior or you know, like maybe consult human performance consulting or something. Like that's kind of what I thought I would do when I was in school. Um and I thought this was just a detour, and then I it slowly dawned on me that if we care about humans, right, and and particularly we care about meaning in the world, money is a fantastic door into that conversation. I I actually have now come to conclude that it's the best door into that conversation because it's so ubiquitous, right? Like everybody needs it. So I got into the industry by accident. I stayed because of this connection to deep meaning and and you know, anything we care deeply about, unfortunately, probably, unfortunately, it's connected to our use of capital. And so that's why I've stayed.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

And how how long were you giving advice for? And I'm assuming you don't give, you know, you don't have any individual clients anymore or anything else like that.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Yeah, so let's think about I I mean, I'm terrible with these kind of numbers, especially as they get further and further away. But it was 95 when I applied for that job. I think it was 90, let's just call it 97 when I left and started got a job at a big brokerage firm. So I had my own clients at that point. Fidelity, I certainly didn't have my own clients. So let's just go 97 to 2012 is when I sold the business.

Discovering Money As A Door To Meaning

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Okay, wow. And then you and then after that, you've just focused on your on your writing uh and on your you know your production of of content.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Yeah, yeah, it's been right, and then a lot of cons like I do a lot of um training and consulting uh along like no like for years people were like, could you come talk to our people about that thing you do? And they would just wave their hands. Uh and then we started putting labels on it called behavioral finance, and and now I really think of it as like communication and connection training. Like, how how do how do I connect on a deep level? So I still am really close to the act and the craft of real advice. Um, and we hold a whole series of workshops and retreats about that. So I'm still still very close to that.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

That's fantastic. And what pushed you to write that first book that you know take that kind of leap? And I'm assuming given the time frames, it wasn't when you was when when you was a financial planner.

From Client Questions To Sketch Guy

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Yeah, it came out the the behavior gap came out um the year, if I recall, I don't have it in front of me, but the behavior app came out in 2012, I think. And that that was the year that I sold my business, and it was those two were correlated. Um meaning I it it so let me answer your question. What pushed me just like the security guard job, and this is one thing I really want to emphasize. I think sometimes we're prone to have events that somebody might see as successful, get asked about them, and then create some beautiful narrative about it. And I I really try to guard against that um because it was all just a series of like kind of like I mean, there's a huge piece of bald-faced luck involved in all of this. Like I can point to specific events where I'm like, if that hadn't happened, my career would be completely different. And I don't know what I did. I don't think, and this is after years of therapy, like even like trying to I I don't think I had much to do other than playing in traffic, right? Like I'm pretty good at saying yes and figuring things out later, and that's how the book happened. So, you know, I'm I'm I I I'm I I'm trying to figure out why I'm not a security guard. I I kind of get sorted that get that sorted out. It's a math job. 20 uh 1995 when Netscape went public, I was like, whoa, this doesn't feel like math. Like I just remember the trading floor just being like, wow. Then 97, 98, 99 with the tech bubble, I was sort of like, geez, what's going on here? I got all these great at this point. I was pretty well trained, had my SEMA designation, my CFP, was working at a big broker's firm with all the best training in the world, honestly, like really great experience there. Um, and yet, you know, like 97, 98, 99 was sort of like, and then of course, you know, the the result of that, the crash in 2000, sort of the tech bubble bursting, sort of was like, what's going on? So I'm trying to sort all this out, and I and I start writing about it. And and the writing was just because a client said that thing you said in our meeting, would you mind writing it down and sending it to me so I could share it with my spouse? Like that was I wasn't a writer. Like I and and then one time somebody really I can remember who it was, um super smart, successful clients, and I was trying to explain a concept and they weren't getting it. And it that had happened before, right? Like I think all your listeners will relate to like you're trying to explain like risk or standard deviation or asset allocation or whatever, and correlations, and and you're getting blank stares. That that had happened to me lots. This was the first time where it dawned on me that those people were really smart. I mean, they had always been, all my clients were smart, but this is the first time it clicked where I was like, if they're not getting it, it must be my fault. It's not like they're dumb. So I out of an act of desperation, I jumped up and I'd never done this before. And I wasn't a doodler, and it's obvious to you and everybody else, I'd have no art background. I I stood up and drew something on the whiteboard, and they were like, Oh, I get it now. And I was like, I mean, I was puzzled. I was like, that's interesting, I should try that again. That was the grand conclusion. Like, that's interesting, I should try that again. So then I started, you know, months went by. Every time I got a question twice, that was kind of my rule. I was like, if I got a question twice, like about the market, about back then it was heavily investment focused for me, as it was for most of us, unless you came up in the insurance side of the business. You know, we were like we were making that move from stockbrokers to financial advisors. I wish I had all my business cards so I could see all my different titles, right? Like financial consultant, wealth manager, whatever. So about that time, every time I got a question twice, I would write it. And I started, this was like when blogs had just come along. And you you may not even remember, but plenty of your listeners won't remember. I won't go into the details, but there's this place you could write the thing. So think of Substack long before Substack was around. And so I'd write these answers and I'd put a sketch up with them. I'd try to describe them and explain them in an image. And I did that for a while, and no one was reading it but my mom and my sister. And then somehow I got some email from the New York Times. And I honestly, this is one of those bald-faced laws. I know I've traced how it happened. A guy named Kent, who I didn't know, sent it to the editor. The editor didn't know him, and for whatever reason, the editor opened it that day.

unknown 10:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

And then he sent a response and said, Hey, I love these. Would you consider doing something with us? And I again, like I knew from my security guard background, to say yes and figure things out later. This is a long-winded answer to the book. After doing that for a year at the Times every week, uh, I got a phone call on a Friday. It's Friday afternoon. I remember where I was. I was at the ski shop picking up my skis, and I normally do because they've just been waxed, I normally don't answer the phone at the ski shop, but it was New York, and I was like, Oh, that's weird. And it was the one of the editors at Portfolio at Imprint of Penguin. And her name was Courtney, and she was like, Look, I've read all your stuff. She said something like, I've printed it out, I've organized it in chapters. Would you be willing to write a book for us? And I was like, I was like, Look, I'm a kid from the hills in Utah. Like, yes, and and I was like, I'm working with an agent already, but I can't write a proposal because I think proposals are stupid, like 50 to 100 pages just to maybe write a book. I was like, it's already a book. So I was like, I Courtney, I was like, I can't write a book. And she said, What if we made a preemptive offer? And I said, Courtney, I'm a kid from the hills in Utah. I don't even know what that means. Why don't you call my agent? And she's like, Oh, I know your agent. When I told her my agent's name, she's like, Hey, I know her. And I said, You guys talk. Three days later, we had a book deal, wrote the book. You know, about that time uh speaking and demand got to the point where I was like, I had to make a choice, you know, continue to serve clients or do this thing. And that's when I that's when and then about that time people were inquiring about buying the business, sort of like for me to join them as some sort of communication person as well. So that that's how the whole thing happened.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Sorry for the long-winded answer, but that's that's that that's super cool because what my next my follow-on question was was going to be how long did it take? Um, but it sounds like you know that that you'd actually done a lot of the work through the articles that you'd written and you know you were you were utilising them as as as you were going along as well, which is super cool. And I think you know the fact, and again, one of my other questions to you was you know, were you writing for your own clients? Um, because it does feel that way. Um, like it feels like you're writing to someone specifically, um, or were you deliberately trying to reach a much wider audience? Um, but it sounds like it was for your for your individual clients.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Yeah, that's really nice. Uh I'm glad that comes through. Um because yeah, I wasn't thinking that like again, Chris. I I live in the mountains in Utah. Like I grew up here, I I'm just a you know what I mean? Like the idea of me, and it's still absurd to me. Like the idea of me writing something for the New York Times, on top of that, it being literally card stock and a sharpie and a Fujitsu snap scanner. Like, I didn't even have a flatbed scanner. You know, like that the idea of all that, like, is so yeah, I was writing very specifically. I often had right the individual person who asked the question in mind, and so and I don't even know how to all of your audience that your audience I just wish I could convince. I've I've spent the last almost two decades trying to convince financial, like real financial planners, and there's a big difference between the fake ones and the real ones, but the real ones, I've been trying to convince them, do you know how valuable like this what's in your head is? And like, because they often say, like, I'm a financial planner, I'm a financial advisor, I don't have any content. The word content gets in the way of just realizing, like, yeah, if I sat in on one of your meetings, there would be six blog posts from that one meeting because you would say something like, that story that you use to to help illustrate uh the value of international diversification, right? That you have forgotten how valuable that is. Because most you think because it's what you hear, the water you swim in all day, it might have even been quote unquote easy for you because it's the way your brain thinks. Like, I mean, most people do not think in volatility terms. Like they don't sit in the stoplight and go, geez, the traffic's really volatile today. You know, like, but we know how to describe those words. Well, all I'm saying is, and now you don't even have to write it. And I this is what I did, Chris. I'm not a writer. I would sit down and record it. I literally, before podcasts existed, I would pull out, I had an actual, and it's not even, it's in the box over there. You know, before iPhones were a thing, I had an actual recorder that I would carry around. I would record it, and then I'd play it back and type it. And so now you could skip the second step. You could literally that's what Behavior Up Radio is. It's a daily podcast of me just sharing a thought. If I was an advisor, every time I got out of a meeting, I would just be like, okay, what was interesting that came of that meeting? I would sit down and say I was just at I would and I would I would for confidential reasons, I would just say something like, I was just having a conversation with a friend, and the topic of international diversification came up. And we talked about this, this, this, and this. We've we both found it really helpful. Hope this is helpful to you. End record release podcast episode. Next time somebody asked me about that question, I would send a link to that episode. That's what I would do. And then you wake up a couple years later, you got a huge pile.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

And I don't know how to sit down and write a book, but I know how to sit down and go through a hundred thousand words. And even better now, Chris, I know how to find an editor and pay that editor to go through the hundred thousand words and produce for me my my work in the form of a book. Anyway, sorry, I get on the rant about that because we need more real financial planners out in the world telling stories. Yeah. Because the fake ones are doing a really good job of telling stories, and we're losing that battle.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

And more you know, if you kind of flick flick forward to then financial planners, like what would you say today um is you know one of the main things that planners get wrong or you know that they they could improve on is probably a better way to put it.

Book Deal, Exit, And New Direction

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Yeah, I and this is I mean, I I I should mention that I'm often wrong but never in doubt. Um but I I I feel really strongly about this. They're just the the really good financial planners that I know, and I know I know a lot of I mean, from living in New Zealand and all the work in Southeast Asia, and then living in London and uh all the time I spent in Australia and all over the US, I've been to every major financial planning I've met in the world. I think I know more financial planners than maybe anybody, if you think worldwide. So I know the really I know the really good ones. The universal truth is you have undervalued your own human wisdom. And you're right now you're even feeling more at threat about that. Like it's it's very easy. But this has been true for I feel like we've had a professional self-esteem issue for two decades, as long as I've been involved, because we don't even know what to call ourselves. Like in a cocktail party, when somebody asks you what you do, you're sh you you you don't want to say. Because if you say financial planner, they hear life insurance sales and they're like, Where's the guacamole? Right? You you don't you you you don't you're embarrassed, you've you've been taught you should have an elevator pitch and you feel terrible about it, like you have to take a shower if you use it. Like it it this has been a problem for a long time. Then robo advisors came along and and made that into a problem that now kind of looks cute and quaint. And some of us are making the mistake and thinking AI is exactly like robo advisors, and that's a huge, huge mistake. But all it's doing is pointing at the same thing the whole time. For 20 years, it's been pointing at do you realize how valuable you are at the human connection level? The ability to help people get clear about their goals over time, the ability about of people to course correct to what's what they find meaningful, all the other things that you do, they are valuable, right? But they're now table stakes. They're all come on financial planning as a technical skill is incredibly valuable, but it's table stakes, and soon without the other thing and I there was just a great article in the New York Times how many people are go turning to Chat GPT for financial advice. Is it good? I I don't know. But I do know that if they have a real planner, that advice can now be focused on what's important to them and those types of conversations about what's valuable in your life, what your goals are, the the shame or the blame, the concern you feel. Think of even your clients who are successful, sold a business for$50 million. Who are you gonna talk to? Like, is your mom gonna feel bad for you because you gotta go to that estate planning meeting? Like your buddies on a bike ride, like, oh my gosh, the taxes, really? Like, even if you're really successful, you have no place to go to have that conversation where somebody can finally say, brother, I hear you, man. Like, yeah, we might say first world problem, but it's your problem. The loneliness, the like so financial planners, the thing they get wrong to in my mind is a beautiful thing, which is you've way undervalued your deep human connection. Now, we have a problem because nobody shows up at your door saying I'd like to pay you for connection. Yeah, they show up at your door for one of those tactical, I always talk about them as an arrow in your arm, arrow in their arms, right? Like, like if you have an arrow in your arm, I'll spare you the explanation for the analogy, other than I thought it was a good idea to give my son a bow and arrow when he was 12. Um, if you have an arrow in your arm and you show up in the emergency room and the doctor says, Tell me about the flexion in your ankle. How's your diet? You're like, bro, get the arrow out of my arm. And that's often clients show up for a presenting problem.

SPEAKER_02 20:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

And you know the whole time. Your deep value is in why, the connection, why are we doing this in the first place? But you gotta first treat the arrow in the arm. So I think we still show up that way in the world. Like, you got a financial question, man? I can help you. I'm better than anybody in the world at this. I've got the biggest calculators. And over time, I'm gonna start paying attention to the words you say, the story you tell about your dad saying, don't be spoiled, you know, the thing you say where you're like, I'm so stressed right now. Like, and I'm gonna give you an opportunity to open that up, and then I'm gonna help you align our investment choices with what you're saying over here, and then one day you're gonna wake up and go, Oh my gosh, I don't pay Chris for the arrow in my arm. I pay Chris because I don't worry anymore. I pay Chris because for the first time in my life, I feel like my choices with my money are aligned with my deepest values. How did that happen? Right? Like that's that's the that's the journey.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

And uh obviously one of the key things I think that you hit on there as well was you know the the The arrow in the arm, I love that analogy because you know, obviously if someone's got a problem, then you should always try and help them with that problem first because that's what's concerning them. And then, you know, the kind of wider piece uh comes in over time. How how would you know what's your advice to people trying to find clients, people that are just trying to start out, like you know, what what would you what would you say is uh is a good way for them to to go about doing that?

Write For One Person, Not Everyone

SPEAKER_00 22:23

Yeah, I think it's really I I uh uh I I I mean I think about this a lot, and a lot of the consulting we do is on this because there would be a temptation because your greatest value is this deeper connection, there'd be a temptation to think that that's how you should market. And there are some people who do that successfully, but they're I don't I I have actually not been able to find a firm that's been able to do it at scale. You know, I'm talking like one or two people, like kind of our life planning friends who are awesome, but hanging a shingle out as your as a life planner is a is a tough slog, and I think all of them would say that. Because no one wakes up in the morning thinking they need a life planner. They don't even know what it is. So, like just to put a fine point on this, I went back and looked. I don't even think people wake up with a financial planning problem, or at least thinking they have one. That's not the language they would use. I went back and looked at all the emails I'd received during that decade of writing for the New York Times and I and the the numbers in the thousands, obviously, from readers of the Times. Not not one time did I get asked for a financial plan. Not one time. Yeah. I'm a CFT. What I got asked was, how much should I save for education? What should I do about this retirement? How do I approach life? Like pra tactical financial problems. So my answer to your question is if I were marketing today, I would think really hard about where's the demand. Yep, what's the language, the hum the humans, right? The people we love that we're trying to serve, what's the language they use? And the language is most likely going to be around a financial question. And it might even be the news, like, what do I do because Nvidia makes up 35% of the SP. Like I would actually lean into being empathetic about that language. And I would tell stories on, to get specific, I'd tell stories on LinkedIn, maybe Instagram, and even most importantly, I'd tell stories to anybody who's given me permission to communicate with them in the form of an email address. I would start sending regularly. If it were me, I'd commit to doing it every week. And I would find one story about the presenting problem. Client came in today super concerned about the what do we call them now? The Mag 7? Super concerned about Nvidia making up 35% of the index and seven stocks making up 50% of the index. And and and and I greet that in the writing, I would greet that story with that concern with empathy, not dismissing. Because that's what we normally do. Us smart financial planners, we're normally like, don't you understand? That doesn't even matter. No, greet it, like, man, as we talked, I understand the concern. To be honest, when I think about it, I'm a little I'm a little concerned about that too. So that and then I would make the transition. So I'm I'm kind of showing them, not telling them you can trust me. I'm showing them. Then I'd make the transition and say, you know, and we so we started talking a bit about what a good financial plan looks like. And of course, investment performance is a really important part of the plan. So again, a nod to that empathy. And then I would say, and you know, we talked about international diversification and and it, you know, that seemed to help. Hopefully it's helpful to you. If you'd like more conversations like this, you can get my weekly email here. And I would just, that's what I would do over time because I don't know any other way. I don't I think every other way is a hack that spins your wheels. You're constantly looking for ways to be more outrageous, more hand-wavy. And this one compounds slowly over time. It's like depositing 500 bucks a month in your your investment account. Nothing exciting there. Nothing exciting there for a while.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

And I suppose if your, you know, kind of your personality and the way that you are comes across in in how you're delivering that content, be it written or audio or or visual, um, what whatever it may be, then you're going to attract clients that you know are they probably perfect for you because they're you know subscribing to your you know, to the way you are and to your personality, which which comes across in that too, which is also super important.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

I I think that's an important part of essentially what you're doing, and again, we'll just use the email list as a metaphor. I happen to think like conversion rates on email are 10, 20, 30 times more than they're gonna be any other place. So if you can if you can nail a problem in public, like on LinkedIn or Instagram, in a short you can nail a you know, like client, are you thinking about this? Here's one thought. So you give them value, and then you say, if you like this, you would love my weekly email. So everything you're doing on those on those platforms, because you're just renting those platforms, right? Like at any moment that could change. Everything you're doing on those platforms is pointing towards something you own, which is a direct relationship with a client via email. Then what the client can do is essentially window shop for as long as they need. Because what what what you're waiting for is two things have to happen. They need to have a financial problem they want solved, and they need to be aware of it, right? They need to have it and be aware of it, and they need to think of you as the person who can solve it. It's the intersection of those two that need to happen in order for any prospective client to become a client. And so the best way for that to happen is over time. You know, I wake up one day, I'm like, man, I got I gotta deal with that 401k I left at the old company. You know, I've been reading Carl's stuff for six months now. And I remember him saying something about this.

unknown 28:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

I I wonder if I should have a chat with him. Like that to me, and you're just trying to increase the frequency with which that happens by increasing your surface area.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Yeah. And how how what what kind of platforms would you suggest that advisors do this on? You know, is it solely LinkedIn? I mean, obviously in the US, Twitter is big. Um, you know, where where would where would you meet your clients?

SPEAKER_00 28:30

So just remember that all of those are insane. Like, look, uh my Twitter changed my life, but that version of Twitter does not exist anymore.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

It's called X.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

That's exactly right, and it's full of yeah, whatever. So um, and it and with the with the ability to create endless content, quote unquote, AI slop that just gets automatically posted, I just think I would focus as close as I could on um one-to-one connections. So the first thing I would do is go to that drawer in your desk. I know you all have it. It might be metaphorical now, but in that drawer you're gonna find a pile of business cards that you've exchanged. And again, this is now a metaphor from 20 years ago, but maybe it's in your email. And I would just make a list of everybody who's you everybody who would recognize your name. And I would send them an email saying, Hey, you're getting this because we've exchanged contact information over time, like and you can customize that based on the relationship, and this is worth your time. Do 10 of these a day. And then just say, hey, I often get asked financial questions, and I've started a little series where I answer them on you know, my email, YouTube, maybe, like, or my podcast, and I would probably still stick with email as being the central place. Yeah, and then say, I I don't want to be presumptuous, but based on our conversation last year or last week, I thought you might enjoy it, you know, to see a sample here or or to sign up here. I used to say, I thought you might enjoy it, so I've enrolled you. Don't do that. You know, like I've enrolled you, if I was wrong about that, please opt out. That was 12 years ago. Like now I would say, I thought you might enjoy this to get it, just click here. Yeah, and then I would do 10 of those a day. I'd go through my LinkedIn stuff. Anybody I have contact information with, I would just give them some value and say, if you'd like more, I'll make this easy on you. It will arrive in your inbox. And then everything you do on these platforms, it it's it's almost a waste of time. But it the almost might be still worth it.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

Yeah.

Real Vs Fake Advisors And Storytelling

SPEAKER_00 30:40

But treat it that way by point putting something on the platform that's valuable. If all they do is read that, they're gonna think highly of you. So it's not just like sign up, sign up, sign up, sign up, sign up. If all they do is read that, they're gonna be like, hey, that Chris guy has something valuable to say. But then at the end, just say, if you like this, you would love my bi-weekly email, my periodic email, my podcast. And I think the thing you're trying to build, the most valuable thing you could possibly build is still the permission asset of an email list. A group of people who've given you permission to communicate again. That's still the most valuable thing you can do. And I would go so far as to say, like, your website should really have only one job. Only one job. Not to get a meeting, not to convince people how smart you are, one job, and that is to get permission to communicate again. And and you could do that by saying, H1 headline is the problem you're trying to solve. Like, and again, in the client's language we talked about earlier, right? So, you know, if you work with anesthesiologists who are trying to figure out how to have a life, they could say something, you could say something like, you know, dentists, you only get paid when you work. Like you'd want somebody to shake their head and go, if I'm a dentist, I'm like, yeah, that's me. How did you know that? Well, I talked to a bunch of you, I heard what you said, I put it on my website. Turns out we've we write about this every week to get this in your inbox sign up here. That kind I would get so simple and so clear that all I'm trying to do is earn get I used the word get a minute ago, I don't mean it, earn permission to communicate again.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

Yeah, that's super, super interesting. That's so useful for someone just starting out. It's not kind of a you know a quick hack like you said, you're building up, you know, a real fan base over time. Um there's that famous article, isn't there 102 fans or whatever it is, and I think you've got you know you've got a great business, which is uh which is a a fantastic article. You you you've helped so many advisors, you know, over over your time. Um which which idea like that, you know, that you've shared do you think has most changed how advisors approach their work? Like what what's the you know, you you would see it like is that aha moment, that kind of click um where maybe they go from you know you know, not fully understanding to really getting what it takes to be a financial planner.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

Well, I mean, let me just if I can give you two, one to continue our theme, the the the marketing theme. To be like uh what we just talked about, every single financial planner I know that has started a weekly email in the way that I just described it. And let me just make it even simpler. If you read things during the week, which we all do, keep a notebook by your desk.

unknown 33:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

And even better now, you can just use a like instapa insta paper or any of the little, you know, little uh bookmark tools. If you find something interesting, bookmark it. Write it down in your little notebook. On Tuesday, Tuesday morning at 6 a.m. go review the 20 things that are in your little the bookmarks you've saved for the week. Find three that you think are actually really valuable. Take open your MailChimp account, and I'm trying to leave people no place to hide, that's why I'm being so specific. Open your MailChimp account, start typing. I read three articles this week I thought you'd find valuable. Here they are, and put one sentence. Here's the link, here's one sentence. I thought you'd find this valuable because it was certainly motivating to me, this lady that won the gold medal. And I use that example specifically. That was not about money, right? This was a really intelligent conversation about the the risks of AI. And here's a quote from a finance professor who talked about compounding over time. Hope you have a great week. Send. Every person I know who's and what's gonna happen to you is you're gonna start writing slightly long, like instead of one sentence, you might write two or three. Yeah, don't feel that pressure right now, just do one. But you're gonna you're gonna notice over a year of doing this, you will start writing like a paragraph for each one. That's called a newspaper column, a link with your thoughts, right? So you're gonna start writing that. Every advisor I know who's done that has come back and thanked me. Almost no one has done it. Because it's too simple, but every single person who has, it may take a year or two before you start seeing things happen. Like now you've got a hundred people in there and you can say, I'm gonna hold a monthly, I'm gonna hold a breakfast next week with my estate, my tax attorney friend, because it's coming up on tax time. We only got 12 seats. We like to keep these small. If you'd like to come and bring somebody, I'll save a seat for you, just hit reply. Now you've got an audience of people who you can use this for. I just wrote a book. I was just a guest on a podcast, right? Like all of those things. Everybody I know who's done that, and it's probably in the hundreds when I say almost no one, but that's still almost no one. So there's that. Then the second piece that I think's really, really valuable is if you start to understand, if this can click, and it it'll sound crazy to most people, but when it clicks, a whole series of things happen. You are not getting paid. If you can start to believe this, you're not getting paid for your solutions. You're getting paid for your presence. If you can understand what I mean, a whole series of things will occur in your life that will change your business and your life. Like you are not getting your solutions are important, of course you're getting paid. Of course. But you you're real what you're really getting paid for is your sense of presence in somebody's life. And that's the second thing that I think that when people understand it, it changes their business.

Human Wisdom Overlooked In A Tech World

SPEAKER_01 36:38

That's really, really, really good advice. Um and yeah, I think that that will resonate with a lot of the people that listen to this. So thank you very much. I've got a strange question for you then. So you know, it would got me thinking obviously you've sat in front of it must be thousands of advisors, maybe not on a one-to-one basis, but you know, you've you do you obviously do your uh monthly Q ⁇ A's, you you know, present, you know, you you're you're very much in the community of financial planners. But has any uh has any feedback from any of the advisors made you rethink anything that you've done or or you know you how you've positioned things?

SPEAKER_00 37:15

Tons. Yeah, I I that's the thing I love about this community, at least the thoughtful people in this community, and I and I found this to be particularly true in the UK, by the way, which I loved. Like there was no problem sort of being pretty direct about feedback in the UK, um, and often in a very funny, you know, slightly snarky way, which was always great. Um and so yeah, tons, and I'll I'll give you one example. I I um I think I fixed this, I I hope, you know, but five or six years ago, it became clear to me that I had through a series of you know pretty scathing emails from people, and these were thoughtful, like they were they were, but they were direct. That I had undervalued that the the way I was communicating was undervaluing the technical side of the business. That was really valuable to hear. You know, like like, yeah, you know what? Financial planning is like I just did a minute ago, you don't get paid for your solutions, but now I try to get that caveat in, like, yes, they're important. In fact, you got to be the best solution provider on the planet. And guess what? It also still doesn't matter unless you can connect. So that was that was an interesting one. Um the one page plan, I got a lot of a a lot of um, and this is interesting to see how much this has changed. Because that's now been if if I if I have the numbers right, it's 11 years ago when that came out. Back then when that came out, yeah. Check me. Back then when that, I think it was 11 or 12 years ago. Um, wasn't it 2014? Come on, Chris, you know where it is. Yeah. Um copyright, second page, I think. So um there was a back then there was a lot of pushback on you you've made this too simple. Right? This is this is oversimplifying our job and it it it in a way that might even be a disservice to the profession. There was actually some people upset about it. And now now you can't go to a financial planning conference without there at least being a breakout, often called you know, one-page financial plan. And I can go to those breakouts and sit in the back, and nobody in the room will know I had anything to do with it, which is perfect. Yeah. Um, but you know, executive summaries, simplifying, like now it's it it was heresy, now it's standard accepted truth. So I got feedback around that. Um so yeah, those are two examples.

SPEAKER_01 39:54

It's easy, but I mean the book's uh 2015 uh copyrighted. Um it's like it's 10 years old and it's it's amazing. Like so I reread it the other um the other week, um and it's amazing that it still holds so true. It's like in the in the like with you know, kind of without trying to you know blow smoke, but it it's timeless. Like it will it will always remain true as well. It's not it's not gonna be, you know, it in another 10 years the the concepts that that you discussed in there are not gonna be you know out of fashion, it will still be very, very true that that's you know, simplistic view on the how on the how to picture things, the you know, the behavioral points that you talk on, that you know, like it's it's great, and it's that's the kind of advice that is you know is is is what's needed in most cases. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

Thank you. And I will say, like, I think the first 90 pages of that book are still great. I think the last from 90 pages on, I wish I could tear it out. So for all of your audience who goes and buys the one page plan, just tear out every I think it's page 90. I think it's page 91 where it goes to the one of the next sections. When I start getting specific about like asset allocation and insurance, and there are some I wish I could I wish I could tighten those sections up and get a little less specific. Because the first 90 pages are in my mind like some of my best work. So that that and I I've I've actually talked to the publisher about like can we re can we do a revised edition where we clean all that up? But um people have been pretty generous about I There have been plenty of people who've been like, dude, this thing in you know page 200 or whatever it is, is I was like, yeah, I I got some of that wrong.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

So I I think it's all fantastic for for what it's worth. Thank you. See, you you know, you you talk a lot as well about meaningful relationships and how much they matter to you, and you know, like that's that comes a lot, that comes through a lot in in in your work and you know in and in the content that that you produce. Like what's actually mean for you?

SPEAKER_00 41:59

Help me help me understand the question what does m meaningful relationships mean for me?

SPEAKER_02 42:05

Yeah.

Arrow In The Arm: Solve The Presenting Problem

SPEAKER_00 42:06

Yeah, yeah. Um I'm pausing here, Chris, because I want to just decide how strong I want to be on this. Because I I I don't think there's any I was literally thinking about this this morning up in the mountains. Um I would can I just I'm just gonna make an argument here and and and and for those of you listening, realize I'm often wrong, never in doubt. I'm just gonna make a really strong argument for the sake of like, I hope this will provoke you a bit. And then if if it provokes you enough and it it'll maybe it'll cause some thinking that will be even better than what I'm about to say. Um I don't think I think the most I think the most valuable, in fact, I would dare say it's the only asset on your business balance sheet that matters is a line item that you don't even know where it exists, but it's a line item called trust. And and I would go so far as to say that that trust could be called meaningful relationships. And if you doubt this, I I have been saying this for a while, but if you doubt this, imagine you do something, and it's not hard for any of you to imagine because you've seen people in our industry do it. Imagine that you did something that was on the cover of uh uh your local or national newspaper that violated the trust of your clients. You would have nothing left. Like everything else on that balance sheet is uh other than if you own your building, you know what I mean? Like everything else on the business balance sheet's gone. And so I I I I think that we are going at light speed, and uh every day I read something new about how fast we're moving in this direction. I think we're gonna have two classes. Of humans soon, and I think we're already close. Anybody who travels much, if you just pay attention in airports or restaurants, you'll know what I mean. One class of humans that are in a screen, like as close to WALL-E as possible, like almost feeding tubes.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

You know, like just Doritos and a Coke in a screen. And then another class that's embodied and connected, can have deep conversations. And I'm terrified at how fast that's how I used to think it was three to five years. Now, as I travel more for the new book, um, I'm like, we're almost there. Like you can watch people in the airport, not even. I mean, I was in the where was I the other day? I was in the mountains. Oh no, I was on the beach. We we just came back from a trip in Costa Rica. I was on the beach and I was shocked at how many people walking the beach in Costa Rica at sunset. Word staring at the phone. And again, I'm guilty of this too, so I'm trying to be careful here. But so what I'm saying is I think it's a business necessity to get better, continue to be as awesome as you are technically rock star, and now to get like tactically, like Navy SEAL version. No, none of this soft people used to say to me all the time, like, I think it's really important to do whatever it is you do, and they'd wave their hands. Like, I'm not talking about soft skills here. There's nothing soft about soft skills. I'm talking maybe they are. I'm talking about emotional intelligence. I think it's business essential to get really good at human connection. And that's the answer to your question, like meaningful relationships. You better know how to have meaningful conversations with people because I don't think we're very far from that being your primary source of value. Of course, all your technical expertise built around it, but they can get that technical expertise to the degree that they understand good versus bad advice, they can get that a lot of places. And they might even be able to get advice as good as yours a lot of places. What they can't get is context from their lives and then that application. And the only way to do that is be better one-on-one in meaningful conversations. So the along-winded answer is it means everything to me.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

Yeah. And so it should to all the planners listening. You know, as you said, it's a lot of things will be commoditized, no doubt, over the coming years with technology getting quicker and you know, all the other bits and pieces, AI and everything else like that coming in. Um, but one thing it can't replace is relationships. I was actually at a conference in Miami last week, and that was what they were, you know, the there was a panel of uh CEOs of of big wealth uh management businesses in the US, and every single one of them said the only thing it's not going to be able to replace is is the relationship which you've got with your clients. It's so so true.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

Yeah, I agree. And I and I don't I don't know if I'm right about it, but you know what? Even if we're round, it's still a better business anyway. Right? Like if you decide to continue to be technically awesome, but get much better at connection and conversations and relationships, you're the only thing that's gonna happen is your life is gonna get richer and their your business is gonna be better. It may turn out that it saves your business, but if it doesn't, it'll be a better business anyway. So why not?

SPEAKER_01 47:31

Well what would you say to people that you know everyone's done it, taking on clients they don't necessarily have a great relationship with? What what would you say to people with with clients like that?

Finding Clients Through Empathy And Email

SPEAKER_00 47:42

Yeah, I mean I would I would make a decision to to either a is this a relationship I want to have a deep relationship, deeper relationship with, and I just haven't been good at doing it, and I I would focus completely on your own what is it about your behavior that's complicit in this result you have here, not uh not their behavior, your behavior. And if if you're like, yeah, you know what, I I should give this a shot, well then sort of re-engage with the new set of tools that you have now. Almost kind of here's one line that I love to use with existing clients that I you didn't have a lot uh, you know, maybe this is a client that you don't have a great relationship with, or maybe it's as simple as like you helped them with solve one solution years ago, and I'll be specific, like maybe you help them acquire the appropriate life insurance, and you haven't really even spoken for five years because maybe you came from a life insurance background, and now you want to have this deeper, you know, like this move to holistic wealth management. My favorite line for those people is you know, you you have your normal review. Hey, it's been five years, we should probably review your life insurance. Like you just this is the existing relationship. I don't say I'm doing things differently or come in and cry on my couch. Normal review, you have the agenda. At the end of the agenda, you just have on the agenda a conversation. Now just take them through your new first meeting as if they were a prospect. And the sentence you can use is, hey Chris, I I I know you know we've we've known each other for five or six years, and you know, a couple of years ago we helped you with that life insurance problem, and I'm I'm really proud of the work we did there. And you know, based on our conversations, I think I might know the answer to this. Now, again, if if this is a client you're talking to regularly and you've known them for 10 years, you could say, based on the answer, I'm pretty sure based on the our relationship, I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this. And this is the key line. But this is so important, I'd never want to be, I'd never want to make an assumption. So I thought I'd just ask you. And then you go into whatever it is you use in those first meetings. Like for me, it would be, Chris, kind of kind of a crazy question, but really, so I found it to be really important to me. And and again, I think I know the answer, Chris, but I don't want to be assumptive at all. So, Chris, just tell me like, why is money important to you? And so it's that key phrase of I think I know the answer. I don't want to be assumptive. Then enter into your the new way you do first meetings with clients and see. So that's option one. Option two is maybe it's a relationship you know you can't salvage, and every time you talk to them, you feel drained and you don't like it. Find them a new advisor.

SPEAKER_02 50:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

Hey, I'm taking my business in a different direction. You know, it turns out you're allowed to do this.

SPEAKER_02 50:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:33

Like there's nothing immoral about this. Like, just be honest. Taking my business in a slightly different direction. Um, you know, it's it's clear to me that what we do is not a good fit for what you need. Um, so I'd love I'd love to help you find a new advisor. I've got a couple of ideas, but I wanted to check with you first. Maybe you know someone you'd like to talk to. If not, I've got a couple of people I'd love to send you to. Or um, you know, over the next 60 to 90 days, I'd like to transition the relationship someplace. Um start looking, you know, like that kind of language.

SPEAKER_01 51:09

That's really, really useful advice. Thank you very much, Strapgall. Um, and look, I obviously want to be respectful of your time as well. Um, so I just wanted to say thank you very, very much for um you know for for coming on. Uh and if people obviously you know have enjoyed the podcast and they you know want to find more about the work that you do with with financial planners, uh, where can they find you? Uh, you know, where's the best place to catch up on what you're doing?

SPEAKER_00 51:34

Yeah, the best place is the society of advice.com. So the Society of Advice is a a community planner we meet once a month. We have amazing guests, and we talk about the craft of planning, largely around the craft of connection, communication, and relationships. So you can check it out at the society of advice.com. That's the best place. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 51:58

Thank you very much. Uh and yeah, really, really appreciate you taking the time. That was that was really, really good. Uh so thank you very much, Col. Yeah, cheers, Chris. That was really fun, thank you. Awesome. Thanks very much.