From Broom Cupboard to £100M+ Advice Firm (Alan Smith’s Story)

In this episode of Don’t Shoot the Messenger, Chris Ball sits down with Alan Smith, Founder and CEO of Capital Asset Management, to unpack what it really takes to build a successful financial planning business.

Alan started his firm over 20 years ago from a small office in Victoria. Today, he is widely recognised as one of the most respected voices in UK financial planning.

They cover:
- How Alan went from a salaried role to building his own firm
- Why being a great adviser does not automatically make you a great business owner
- The reality of starting from scratch and managing early uncertainty
- How referrals, niche positioning and content drive consistent growth
- The story behind The Real Adviser Podcast (TRAP) and its impact on the profession
- Why AI could elevate financial planning rather than replace it

If you are a financial planner thinking about building a business, growing your client base, or positioning yourself in a changing industry, this episode is worth your time.

If you want to see what life in Hoxton Wealth is like, please visit:  / @hoxtonlife 

For more information on Hoxton Wealth careers, please https://www.careers-page.com/hoxtonwealth.com

For my videos by Chris, please visit his Youtube:  ⁨@ChrisBallHoxton⁩  

Transcript

Welcome And Who Alan Is

SPEAKER_00 0:00

So welcome to another episode of Don't Shoot the Messenger. Today I'm joined by someone I've wanted to sit down with for a long time, Alan Smith. So Alan is the founder and the CEO of Capitalastic Management and has become one of the most respected independent financial planners, I believe, in the UK.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

I knew very little about them, but I did know that they offered me a company car if I didn't have any revenue at all for maybe six to twelve months, as long as I lived on big beans and lived a very modest life. I wanted to have a handful of um more affluent clients with a higher degree of complexity that I that we could solve their problems for. Little do people know that it was a little tiny room above it. What is another pizza shop?

SPEAKER_00 0:45

What would you say to someone who is you know now sat there maybe working for a standard life or another financial planning business is thinking just because you're a great financial planner doesn't mean you're going to be a great business owner as well.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

I think you've got to understand your own limits and capabilities. There's a famous um fog the mirror test, which means if if the person, if the prospect could fog a mirror, i.e. they could breathe, they were alive, they're in. I've got payroll at the end of this month. I've literally got 300 quid in the bank right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

So welcome to another episode of Don't Shoot the Messenger. I'm Chris Ball, and today I'm joined by someone I've wanted to sit down with for a long time, uh, Alan Smith. So Alan is the founder and the CEO of Capital Asset Management, a boutique financial planning firm. He started back in 2004, so that's 21 years ago now. Uh, and he famously began in a broom cupboard in Victoria, as as he puts it. Um, and he thought he'd give this IIFA lark a go and and has built and has become uh one of the most respected independent financial planners, I believe, uh in the UK. So uh I built you up there. Thank you. Appreciate it. So let's start off there on your journey. So, you know, it started over 21 years ago. You started in a broom cupboard in Victoria, you know. Well, it wasn't literally a broom cupboard, but I've got this vision, I've got this like it, you know, this image in my head of you sat there with mixed there.

Leaving Standard Life To Start Up

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Listen to the mocks and the buckets and all that. Exactly. Not quite, but it wasn't too far away from it. What why did you why did you decide to give it a go and why then? Um, first of all, great to be here. Thanks, and I'll be looking forward to meeting you, Chris. Uh so I'm uh grateful to be here. Uh I often say I've only ever had two jobs in my life, my adult life, or three if you include my paper around when I used to do that. I'm a bit younger. Um, but I moved from Scottish, I moved to London way back in the day, uh at the very beginning of my career, like straight out of college, on a kind of sort of graduate recruitment program uh for a company that was then called Standard Life. And I knew very little about them, but I did know that they offered me a company car and quite a decent salary, and that's all I really cared about in those days. So I was in my 20s and began to learn the ropes around this thing called well, personal finance, financial services. Obviously, it's quite a few years ago, and the landscape and the environment was quite a lot different to what it is now. Um, but I I would say it was a great learning ground. Those were the days, and this is another story, we might even come back and talk about this, but fantastic training, you know, really, you know, significant infrastructure and resources of some of these big companies uh that was out there, which there's maybe less of nowadays, I have to say. Um, so I really enjoyed my time there. And so my job was it was effectively, they called it a broker consultant, and they still exist now as a role. I think there's a lot fewer of them than it was. But basically, I was given a car, an expense account, and told go and knock on doors of in those days IFAs, accountants, banks, and promote your products and all standard lives, pensions, and investments and products. And so it was a sales job and a relationship management job, and I have to say I really enjoyed it. I had a great time, and I learned a lot over the years about what I considered best practice to be in the advisory space because I ended up um operating in central London. Um, and there was a lot of really interesting intermediary firms in those days. So if you remember, this is like pre-retail distribution review. Um, even you know, regulation itself was relatively new uh when I was first started off. So I would find some firms that were, let's say, that they were fantastic at their client service proposition, for example, but their investment solution was weak, in my opinion. Or and then you have someone else who's the opposite. So I over the years just had this idea if I could cherry pick the very best component parts for all these various companies that I was getting to know and spending time with and and you know asking the business owners how they operated and where they got the clients from and and all that, then I could sort of somehow put together a best of best of all worlds type uh type of business. And you know, the thing is, I I I was never particularly, I wasn't unhappy there. I was quite enjoying it, but uh there came a point in my life when I turned into my early 30s, and I so the point was I was I wasn't married, didn't have kids, and I would see people that were ahead of me who were in their 40s, 50s and and older, and they were career people, they'd been in the same organization for decades for their entire career. And for whatever reason, by the way, there's nothing wrong with that. Um they've all you know done well, but I just had this thing if I don't do something for myself now, then I never will, because the point will come when there's it's kind of too risky to start a business. Do you know what I mean? So um I just thought about it, I thought about it a lot, and I just had this opportunity just to leave, to walk away from what was a well-paid, you know, quite enjoyable job and and start my own. And I just had this view that look, if it doesn't work, I had enough money saved to last if I didn't have any revenue at all for maybe six to twelve months, as long as I you know lived on baked beans and lived a very modest life for a while. But I could have done uh worst case scenario, and I I I just thought, if this doesn't work out, I'll get another job. You know, I can so I I this was kind of risk management. I never saw myself as an entrepreneur. I thought, but I've got to give this doing things for myself, give it a chance um just to see if I was if I was capable of of you know starting a business, building a business. And and that's hence I ended up in the broom cupboard in Victoria. And it was quite funny because so I was just starting literally as a sole trader uh one man band. Um I'd acquired a small client bank from a retiring advisor. So at least I had something uh to go at. So I wasn't completely uh, but it but it was very modest and it wasn't going to generate sufficient income, really, but it was enough to be better than nothing. And it's funny how things changed because in those days I was always of the opinion, and to a large extent I still am, that if you're managing a family's life savings, having a physical presence somewhere is quite important. So, and I knew of quite a people, uh some other people who were again sole trader advisors, and they they just worked from home. This is obviously a long time ago, before Zoom and Teams and everything. Um, and they would just meet the clients in the client's home or their office or even a hotel or a coffee shop. And again, I just had this vision in my mind. If I'm gonna hand across the you know the management of my family's wealth and life savings, I expect you at least to to to to have to sign a lease to have a contract that you can't just disappear overnight. So I looked for an office space and it was, it was so it was tiny, it was a tiny little lot office space, it was fine, but you know, that's why I say it was a glorified broom cupboard, because it wasn't a lot, you couldn't swing a cat very much in there because that's all I needed, but it was a physical office presence. And I came up with this name because I just thought, who's gonna deal with a micro business by myself? I had visions in the early days that I wanted to focus on what is generally called high net worth clients. I didn't really want to be mass market business, I wanted to have a handful of um more affluent clients with a higher degree of complexity that I that we could solve their problems for. So, and I thought they're not gonna deal with me as a one-man band. So I came up with this name, capital asset management. It just sounds it sounds like a big institution. And the story's for another time, part two, because we won business. I won business on the back of the name. People got us confused with other companies. So that went well, and the address was 27 Buckingham Palace Road. So it sounds very grand. Capital asset management, 27 Buckingham Palace Road. Um, little did people know that it was a little tiny room above what was now a pizza shop. I could still go past it now. So, but that was you know, I was I was off and running then. So I sat up by myself, literally in this room with a laptop, a few contacts, a few names, um, and I was off to the races. And that's that's kind of how I got started. And and in summary, it's simply because I wanted to give myself a go at this business owning thing. I had a itch that I wanted to scratch, and I risk managed it such that I could manage the downside if it didn't work out, and here I am. It's actually 22 years better.

Planner Versus Business Owner

SPEAKER_00 9:09

That's uh I think that I think I think that's you know, people I generally find with these kind of grand plans of this is where they're gonna get to, they're either now saying that with hindsight saying, you know, I always had this vision when clearly didn't, but you know, I think the scratching the itch and actually going to do it is is you know very uh very common. And what would you say to someone who is you know now sat there maybe working for a standard life or another financial planning business is thinking, do you know what? Actually I wouldn't mind giving this a go on my own. Would you say it was easier for you back then to have have you know have done it than versus now with increased regulation, increased you know compliance standards and things that you have to adhere to as uh as a regulated business? Um, or would you say actually, given you know the having a technology that we that we can use within our businesses to make us more efficient, it's actually a great time to be doing it. And I think the other thing worth mentioning is is you know, just because you're a great financial planner doesn't mean you're gonna be a great business owner as well. Completely. Is it is it is there anything as well that maybe you would have told yourself now um or you would have told yourself back then, having known what you know now, would you have done it?

Regulation Today And Choosing Scale

SPEAKER_02 10:18

The only thing I might have told myself is I I did I didn't have like a 50-page business plan. So the starting point was just I wanted to give myself a job to replace what I'd walked away from. And when I look at my income in the first year, after walking away from the previous job, it was half or less than I'd earned before. So I walked away from that. And it's for some people, they just don't want to do that because there is an earnings curve that goes down. It is very unlikely if you're going away from a well-paid job that you're gonna immediately from day one earn the same or more. Um, but I was prepared to play the medium to long game because I could also see I did have an understanding earlier on about you can create um actual enterprise value by it by owning shares or owning equity in in a business, which I was never really gonna have where I was before. So I was prepared to play the long game, earn less money short term, but build something that I could own, I could influence, and I could, you know, create and create that value within a business. To answer your question, no, I don't think that they go hand in hand. Because you're a great financial planner, you'd be a great business owner, founder, entrepreneur. Um, and in fact, I think they're quite rare that you are both. Um I think over the years I started off as a pretty good, I think, financial planner. And I think I'm a better business owner now than I am a financial planner. In fact, I'm not I'm not a financial planner anymore. I came off the tools some years ago, which is a whole other conversation that people have to consider as well, because I got to a point that the day job of just being a financial planner, and in my day I had nearly 100 clients to look after by myself, whilst you're also trying to think strategically, have a vision, recruit people, hire people, do all the stuff that a business owner does, it's pretty difficult to do both to a really high standard. So I think you've got to decide which route you want to go. If you want to grow a business and you and you just love being a financial planner, then I would suggest if you do want to scale, you need to have other people around you who can do the kind of the management, the the CEO type role, because that's a full-time job in it in itself. So um, and and the other thing you you asked, Chris, was do I think it's easier or harder? I th I think on the face of it, it's easier now. There are some things which are harder. For example, in the in the UK in our regulatory environment, it is definitely uh harder. I was um directly authorised from day one. I applied to the FCA, it was or the F they're called something else. FSC, wasn't it? FSC, something there. Anyway, I think it's been through a number of iterations over the 22 years I've been in business. Um, but I applied to whoever the regulatory body was, and you know, with a bit of admin or what have you got approved. Um the feedback I get now is it's much, much harder. Um the the compliance standards have increased significantly in those days in those days. We've got a whole bunch of things to consider. We've got a a regime called Senior Managers uh SMCR, which is a regime which you kind of judge on the same level as any regulator business. So if you're setting up, you you're judged by the same standards as Barclays Bank, for example. And if you're a sort of one-man, one-woman startup, that that's a that's a high bar uh to achieve. So the regulatory environment is harder, but you know, there's there's routes, there's networks, there's a bunch of things you can you can do. Um but I think the ability to scale, to grow a business and and to grow it without incurring significant additional cost by leveraging technology, um, you know, that that clearly is is the environment that we're operating in now, which just wasn't back in my my day, you know. Sending emails is pretty breakthrough instead of literally instead of sending letters. So the the technological landscape is is far better. The regulatory environment is harder. But I think you've got to you've got to have a you've got to have a long hard think about do I want to do this? Because it sounds good, yeah, but it's not without its challenges. And owning a business and starting from scratch is definitely not for everyone. Yeah. It's tough. Well, you know.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Yeah, yeah, it is, it is, it's not uh it's not an easy thing. And I think there's good days, bad days, as as with everything. Um and I think the I think the key difference for me at least was that there was no one to necessarily lean into if you had uh if you had issues and problems, it was it was down to you. Yeah, and also you're supporting a lot of other people. So it's not just you anymore that you're taking care of. I mean, we've got 300 people that we employ across the the business now, and if you do something stupid by accident, of course, that can impact a lot of people's you know livelihoods and and and prospects, which is not ideal.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

It's nuts. I can't believe you've got 300 people. That's I mean that again that that's not for the faint heart. So that wouldn't be for me. That's the other thing about being a business owner. You could be a business owner in IFA land as a sole trader. You can and in fact, I read something the other day that 49% of regulated firms in the UK are a one-person advisor business. So it really is a kind of cottage industry. In fact, it's more like a like a barbell. You've got loads of micro businesses on one hand, and then you've got some really skill, like yours and a bunch of others who are really significant. Um, and I'm in the middle ground, I'm in the kind of I we you'd call it like mid-sized time advisory firm, which again you've got to understand, I think you've got to understand your own limits and capabilities. And I'm sure you built a lot of people around you, but the thought of having 300 people um would keep me awake at night. Um, but so and that's the difference as well. You see, be a business owner. Do you want to be a sole trader, do your own thing, and that's great because you can you're responsible for yourself and no one else. And I know quite a few really successful people who who do that. For me, the sweet spot, and this again, this is just my own personal view and choice. The sweet spot was a boutique mid-sized firm with maybe five to ten advisors, all high quality people, all kind of bouncing ideas off each other, world-class support team leveraged by really good technology. That's just that that's kind of where I would thrive. That's what um where I've done, which is the other conversation about you know, to to what degree do you want to scale a business? Or is it or as plenty are, is this just a really high quality lifestyle business?

Winning Clients With Referrals

SPEAKER_00 16:34

Yeah. Which there's lots of and they're and they're great. And I think it's it's as well, it's just like no answer is right, it's what's right for you, isn't it? And you need to you need to not be pressured to do one or the other. Because I think that's when you stop enjoying it, is when you're when you think you have to do something. I feel I feel like a lot of people who are great financial planners feel that they have to become business owners sometimes because they feel that maybe the firm that they're at doesn't do things how they would like to do it, and that's not necessarily a reason to go and start on your own. It's probably more of a reason to try and find somewhere that maybe fits better with with what you with with with what you are and where you are. I think these are different hats as well, isn't it? Like you have to be comfortable wearing multiple different hats because when you start, you're gonna be HR, you're gonna be an accountant, you're gonna be a marketing, you're gonna do you're gonna have to do it all. And for some people, that's ideal to dream, you know, a bit of everything and spice, um, which which they really enjoy. So it's yeah, I think it's it's it's it's tough, isn't it? And when you started your your business, what I'm interested in as well is how you went about finding clients and like how you do it now. So obviously you have your podcast which is aimed at entrepreneurs, um, which you know you and I were just talking before we started, which you know you you have got um you have got client, you know, could manage to connect with people that uh understand and you know really like what you're saying and therefore want to want to work with you, which is super powerful because they probably binge a load of episodes before you before you've spoken to them and the the intent is really high. But how did you do that before that was a thing? Yeah, did you start off? It's it's a good question.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

Um I think I'm gonna guess it's similar in your business, Chris. I think it's similar for all professional services. The the the biggest source of new client introductions is referrals from existing clients. Um that is in our business, it was for me from day one. Now, when you're starting off in business, um there was a famous um fog the mirror test, which means if if the person, if the prospect could fog a mirror, i.e. they could breathe, they were alive, they're in. And over time you get a bit more selective. Yeah. Um, so yeah, when you when you first start, you've got a few people that you know and you deal with. And I was actually in those early days, because I was keen to grow, I I was very proactive around asking for referrals without being sleazy, and and you know, there's there's a way of doing it. I see some referral scripts, I think they, you know, if you're gonna say that to me, I'm just I'm out. But you can there there's some very good ways of positioning it, positioning for introductions and referrals. And that obviously is predicated you that you do a really good job for your client and you're getting feedback, you know. And I I was always keen to, as we were going through the process, particularly early on, to say, can you let me know how how I'm doing? You know, what what did you uh enjoy about this uh this process? Was it things that you wish I'd done or wish I hadn't done? And always doing that as a sort of feedback uh loop and then positioning for introductions and referrals. Um referrals to this day represent about 60% still of our uh new client growth. Um, and we are again reasonably proactive. And again, there's systems and processes that you can you can bring in. Um I don't know many advisors who actually have what I would call a repeatable, scalable referral system. And I think it's something that people could, if they were keen to grow, that's the number one thing they should do before they start thinking about other growth tactics. Um the other thing is as part of this, and you're right, thanks for mentioning it. I do host a podcast called Bulletproof Entrepreneur. And the origin story of that is all over the years, you know, we start off dealing with everyone, and then I just found that the people that I personally really enjoyed speaking with and helping were business owners because I could relate to them. You know, they would tell me about their, you know, how they get started. And you know, everyone's got a broom cupboard in Victoria's story version of that, you know. Um, and I would just really relate to them and we kind of go deep in the conversation, and I would always like to understand the family dynamics, you know, tell me what was your did you when you started, were you married, did you have kids, and all that kind of risk-taking stuff. So I just would really connect with these people, and I just and that was the time I would my my thinking was evolving in that we should go like deep and narrow on a niche. We should not try to be all things to all people, which is fine. You've got a wider potential audience, but if we become like uh one of the go-to firms for entrepreneurs and business owners uh in the UK, particularly those going through a liquidity event, so they're building out and they because there's a real need for advice, and absolute, it's essential because most of these people are you know somewhat lost without some some deep insight. So we began developing that as a specific um target audience and and then and a niche and fast forward to now. So some of those conversations I used to have early on with these founders, just through my sort of financial planning experience, I would always think, do you know, this is absolute gold, what you've just said to me. And there's other I've I know a few other entrepreneurs that have five, ten years behind you in the journey, they'd love to listen to this. If we just did what we're doing now, Chris, and just put a microphone, I'm just gonna have the same conversation and we can push it out. Then first of all, I thought it would add value to the uh business owner, SME entrepreneur community. Um, secondly, I thought I'm gonna learn something as well. I can get as a business owner, I can just ask a few questions and genuinely. Learn from people. And maybe just maybe a few people would tune into it and say, I wouldn't mind speaking to him about his wealth management and financial planning capabilities. And that's exactly what's happened. And we do get a regular flow of people who tune into that podcast. I mean, if you've dedicated an hour or so of listening to me and guests, you kind of build up a bit of that embedded trust. They kind of think, well, the guy keeps it, he seems, I mean, I'm pretty consistent in what I say. I've got my own thoughts and views and my outlook and you know the way financial planning is done. So if we meet, if I meet somebody who's listened to a few episodes of the podcast, then we're further down the line than if I've never met them before in my life. So it has been a good source of introductions and referrals. And the last part of that jigsaw, in terms of in this is in my experience of business growth, uh, is partnerships. I'm a great believer in partnerships. So creating aligned relationships with third-party companies and organizations and people that operate in a similar space. So in the world of entrepreneurs and exiting entrepreneurs, there's corporate finance teams, there's MA experts, there's accelerators, there's growth clubs, there's all a bunch of all of them. So I'm increasingly spending more time like speaking at those sort of events, um, mixing in those circles and positioning my firm as the go-to firm for that specific niche audience. And it's and it's working really well. And I do think, and if you've got people tuning into this that are thinking, either I want to start my own company or I want to grow my book of business, my revenue. I'm a believer in being like the go-to advisor for that. And actually, the the narrower the niche, the better. Business owners isn't a niche, there's that hundreds of millions probably in the UK alone. Um, but let's say, I don't know, female tech entrepreneurs in London. Now you're getting you know a narrower and narrower niche, for example. And I've seen people do it super successfully with optometrists in Nottingham or you know, whatever. You become that so it's a much narrower audience. But if those people are looking for advice, you are the only choice because you know everything about the business, the issues, the challenges. And I think, and then that leads you on to how do how do they even find out about you? Well, that's where content and media helps. So, I mean, a podcast is is one way you can do it, but then a podcast can spin out into all sorts of other content. You can create white papers, downloads, you know, um documentation, checklists, stuff that's that that tells that potential audience that you get them and you understand them, and they can just connect with you and learn more from you. And when the time is right, they may choose to engage with you. So I think it's uh I see it working really well in other in other markets. So we'll we continue to do that.

Niche Marketing Through Content Partnerships

SPEAKER_00 24:52

And I think what you know, what strikes me with with you and with your target um, you know, kind of target market that you've really based your business around and yourself around is you're actually passionate about it. This isn't a because I think you know, this is probably where I could earn the most. It's that you actually like it and you actually enjoy talking to these people because otherwise when you when you speak to them, it's quite clear when you're speaking to someone and they're just like click, click, click, you know, question, question. Like there's no back and forth, there's no real interest in it. And then, you know, yeah, and and the and that other bit you said is it they get that you understand um what their problems are and they they see you as an equal, they don't see you as you that you're pitching your that you're there to help solve a problem.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

I I I think that's the point. So it's a bit subtle and nuanced, but particularly in the in the days of technology and and AI, uh, you know, human beings, we pick up subtle signals from each other, and they all say certain things to me, and I can relate to it because I've been on the journey as well. And you know, as we're talking about at the top of this conversation, I've left uh and most people that I've met used to work in whatever industry they're in, they used to work for a bigger company, and they thought either by themselves or with two or three other people who thought we're gonna give this a go ourselves. So I can relate to that journey that's found a story, how you got started, broom covered or not, but it's all a bit scrappy. And then and and having, you know, genuinely, you know, these 3 a.m. moments are called things, you know, things that keep you awake in now. When you think, honestly, I was beat, I was that when I started to hire people, and then we had like a tough period of of you know when there wasn't much income coming in. I'm thinking, God, I've got payroll at the end of this month. I've literally got 300 quid in the bank right now. And if this thing doesn't happen, that thing happens, it's gonna be a problem for me. And other founders can relate to that. They say, Oh man, you know, we've been through the story. So there's a there's a level of authenticity, I think, that comes across that I think it's harder, and don't get me wrong, it's part of my sales spiel when I'm speaking to these people, because I'm my natural competition in that space is the private banks, yeah. And they're going after that market in a major way. They've got uh bigger brand name and deeper resources that than I've got. And don't get me wrong, I've got some very good mates who are like senior people in some of the big name private banks, and they're all good people, they're well-intentioned, but the the differentiate, and why would they choose a scrappy little firm like ours versus some of the big name brands? And my story to them, and this fits in with this kind of niche focus, uh, is with all due respect, that guy is a career banker. He's never taken an entrepreneurial risk in their life. They don't understand it like I understand it, how important this is to you, the sacrifices you've made, the things you've had to compromise on, the things you've had to give up in order to achieve the success that you've currently got. And let's assume we all do the same work, the financial planning work, the investment strategies, etc. Let's assume we do them to the same level. But I always think we'd do them better. That's another story. But let's just assume, because no one knows yet, though that your prospective client doesn't know. I'm gonna make a case that me and my team care more than somebody who, you know, if they're any good, they'll probably get promoted, they'll probably move to another bank. And if they don't hit their sales number, they're probably gonna get fired. So I'm all about relationship management. I'm all about having a lifetime relationship with the client family that we'll know you, we'll know your kids as they grow up. Um, and whereas that person, chances are they ain't gonna stay there for the rest of their career, they'll be jumping back and forward. And you want to have somebody, and this is the whole thing that I see the value nowadays, that everyone needs a trusted advisor. Every family needs a trusted advisor in their life that takes them through all the inevitable ups and downs and challenges of just modern living, money, business, family, everything that goes on with that. And you don't will having sort of bared your soul and told your life story to someone like me and my colleagues, you don't really want to have to start again three years later because the person you've told it to is just is moved on and got a promotion or something. So I make a big case for that, which is why I like the idea of being an independent boutique business, um, owner-managed, founder-led, all that sort of thing. And as I said, my target audience, they get that and and and they like it. And but uh, but you make a good point, Chris. You've you've got to want to work with these people. If you want to work with lawyers, you've got to work, you've got to enjoy working with lawyers. If you want to work with doctors, you've got to understand what the kind of the medical profession, how they operate, and um and really enjoy sitting down and speaking to a you know whatever a retired surgeon or whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Yeah. You know, you've got to place your strengths, I think, is what I got from that as well, is that it's very you're not gonna be able to compete with uh Julius Bear or, you know, uh you know, uh along that in terms of kind of you know assets and you know, whatever, whatever it might be, but actually what you can what you can play to and what clearly you're you're doing very well at is understanding that individual and that relationship side of it, which it's very, you know, as you said, it's very difficult for someone else to build up who has not been there and done it. You attract to people that you you like. Yeah. I I think that I think that works.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

I mean, I I now know, and we might have a chance to talk about it, but as some of your audience may know, I co-host another podcast called Trap. We might chat about that or not. We will but I've seen I've seen um through that and through some of the insights we get from that, there's been just some interesting evolutions of financial planners and career changes. Um, one recently was someone who's a quite senior school teacher because she was she was a school teacher and decided to do a complete career pivot and become a financial planner and has got a role now in a financial planning business near where they live. And and I don't know what what her sort of intentions are, but if she was a financial planner for school teachers, for example. I you know, because she gets them, she understands them, she knows what it's like, she probably has a good understanding of the, I'm not sure what it's called, but the teachers' pension scheme and all the complexities attached to that and know what it's like to you know try to build you know a secure retirement um it's for anyone working in the education sector, for example. So that's an immediate if you've if you've had experience in a particular career, or even growing up, um, maybe your parents were doing a particular type of role or job or or or your brother or sister was, and you kind of just got a bit of a deeper insight rather than just go through a list, right? What niche should I focus on? You know, oh this thing, these look like they own a lot of money, let's just go after them. Yes. And you've got no history, connection, or insight in those, you're just gonna find it harder.

Trap Podcast And Building Community

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's and you don't you you don't put it all, you don't put it all into it. You don't kind of you it's very difficult for you to be great at it because you're not passionate about it. And to be great, you have to you have to be passionate about it. So let's talk about the Real Advisor podcast then. Um, so for anyone who doesn't know, can you explain what trap is and why you, Andy, Nick, and Carl decided uh to start it?

SPEAKER_02 31:59

Yeah, like a like a lot of things, it started by accident. Yeah. Um, so me and the other three guys, we just happen to be like mates in real life. We know each other just around the block. Um, in for I don't know, for many, many years. Um, I've known Andy longest. In his early stage of his career, he reached out to me. I'm obviously much older than him, as he keeps reminding me. Uh, and he was getting started. And I was just, you know, I was 10 years into the business or something, so I had a bit of experience. So he and I got to know each other quite well. Then we get to know Nick. Um he's a he's another you know, interesting character of himself. If anyone hasn't watched uh the podcast or listened to it, uh Nick's great. And then we later on we meet Carl and we would meet, and we would just go out, we'd go out for dinner, and we'd just go for a beer, or we'd just chat like you do with a bunch of guys who all operate in the same sector, same industry. What do you end up talking about? Um, about the industry, about sort of the good, the bad, and the ugly and everything within it. And again, a bit like I was as I was explaining how the bulletproof podcast got started. We were in Ireland a few years ago. So the three of us went across, met up with Carl, and we were sitting, we're in a restaurant. Again, we're having this kind of conversation about this and that opportunities, problems. And and I said, again, if we if if we put a microphone on this table, that we probably couldn't record everything we said that evening. But you know, a lot of it would be of value to others who are like one, three, five, ten years behind us on their own journey. And I I'm a big believer in what I call mini experiments. Like when I started my own business, that was still an experiment. And I I had a parachute. If it didn't work, I had a bit of money and I could bail out. Uh podcast was less risky, and the idea was let's just put a podcast together, let's just the four of us chew the fat, as if we were kind of back in the bar just chatting about stuff. Um, let's let's do three episodes, see if this yeah, if it gets any traction. If it doesn't, it was fine, no, no harm done. If it gets a bit of traction, we'll we'll do another three and see how it goes. And that was, I don't know, 90-something episodes ago. So coming up, I think, four years later this year, it was started. And I think what people like about it, so yeah, it's it's Trap, the Real Advisor Podcast, T R A P. And it is it's what I would call an unvarnished discussion with four practitioners uh in in the industry. Um, and so it's not, it's definitely not polished in my anyway. It is raw. We've almost never done any editing. We we jump on uh you know you you'll be familiar with it. There's a kind of digital podcast studio facility called Riverside. Yeah, it's a bit like Zoom, and uh we have a conversation completely unscripted. We have we always have a number of things that we plan ahead to discuss. Uh we usually record on a Monday and we publish it Wednesday night. So we just we record it, download it, publish. So we don't, it's not, and I think that's the attraction of it. It's not highly polished. It is raw as it is, what we think about unscripted. We don't have to push it through legal or compliance. Yeah. Careful not to say anything that's you know not true or that we couldn't back up, and it's often just commentary on information which is in the public domain. But since then it's grown, it's grown a lot. And I I I think it would be fair to say it's now the biggest podcast of its type in in the UK in terms of its its uh its audience, the numbers of downloads we get, and so bit by bit the experiment continues. And then a couple of years ago, we'd we had some people say to us, um, you guys should have a live event as well. We should get you get because it's really about community. The whole thing uh about trap, and what we refer to as the trappists, which is the the you know, we're the trap pack and uh and they're the trappists, and but it is really about community and people sharing best practice, good ideas, and I think it's clearly it's a it's a it's a self-selecting audience in that if you if you do invest 90 minutes of your life every two weeks, it tells you something about yourself and it tells us something about yourself in that you want to learn, you're on your own journey, and you're getting some value to listen to us four jokers just chew the fat about stuff, and so to get together in real life with another few hundred or people a bit like you at different points in their own journey is really high value. So we did that a couple of years ago, really successful, worked out, and our next live event is coming up on May 13th in in London, and as of now, depends when this podcast goes out, it's pretty much sold out. I think we've got a handful of tickets left, but we'll have over 250 people in in that room, pretty much all who've you know paid, isn't it? It's not super expensive, but it's not free either, because we've got to set it up, lay it on. And I don't know, I'm not even sure what we'll talk about on the evening, but it that kind of almost doesn't matter. It's about this idea, and I'm a big believer in this in community, is getting like-minded people together and have them share their ideas, share their versions of best practice. But I mean, I can I can tell you, Chris, there's a lot going on in the landscape. I get all sorts of DMs and emails and private messages from some of the audience who listen to Trap who are thinking that I've, you know, you guys have I've learned from you and I've understood, and because but I work for this other organization and they just they don't adhere to, you know, we've got these core principles that we talk about. We I mean we we call it full fat financial planning. Yeah. And the four of us in our respective firms, we all deliver this to all clients all the time. So no exceptions, um, because we can't we believe we can't do a job without it. So that's we fundamentally agree on that. We disagree in quite a few other things, which is great, because if we agreed on everything, it'd be a pretty boring podcast. So there's been the occasional, you know, heated exchange on various things. We've we decided we can't talk politics anymore. Yeah, it gets a little bit too spicy. Um, but and I think that's where the value add is the this idea of full-fact financial planning, using proper financial planning is the core of everything that you do. And you find that there are some advisors who are just working in firms that just don't do that and aren't about to do it anytime soon. This is where this idea of people breaking away, setting up their own thing, maybe getting together with a few others. And if we can get a bunch of those, you know, in the same room, you know, there's a few drinks there, there's a there's a bar, there's free drinks for people to get there in time. Um, and it's a bit of a it's a much kind of looser environment than a more, much more traditional kind of full-on all day type conference. Yeah. So we're really pleased with the evolution of where it's gone. We're all at a stage of our career to one degree or another, that our careers are more mature. We've got established businesses, and we are genuinely keen to give back to this profession that has given us all, you know, a really, a really good life. And we get a real kick out of seeing people like the aforementioned teacher who changed career, and so many stories I couldn't begin to tell you about people who've made big decisions on the back of listening to some of those episodes. And I do think we're I do think we're a force for good. I do think we're true, we are well-intentioned, we don't get everything right, but we are all about making this a better profession, uh, making making those who work within it enjoy their work more, making them deliver better, more higher value experiences for their clients, you know, delivering proper financial planner planning to a wider audience. And we even get listeners who had nothing to do with financial services. They're just quite a light, they like the banter, they like the conversations. And so some of them tune in and just get a be it's like a behind-the-scenes look at what's going on in the wild world of financial planning. So it's it's been great. And you know, we're now thinking of another another range of things that we can bring in. We've got ideas for what we're loosely calling the Trap Academy, what should be like a membership group where we can share ideas and we'll have you know um content and video uh within that. Um, and we're talking about for a handful of you know, sort of select, maybe, maybe those that are more established in business, but doing a like a mastermind group, doing doing an off-site, doing two or three days over in Dubai or Spain or Portugal or somewhere like that, and just you know, really having a lot of fun, you know, working hard and sort of working out strategy and business plans, you know, having a couple of dinners, playing paddle or tennis, or just doing doing something for a few. So that's we've got a few things in mind that we there seems to be a demand for that. And the and the key difference is coming from authentic operators who are doing the job every day as opposed to what Nick refers to as NACs, which is you know N-A-A-C, never advised a client. You know, they're all good. There's a lot of consultants in our industry, and I know quite a few of them, and they're really good, but a lot of them have never advised a client.

SPEAKER_01 41:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

So if you've got people who advise clients every day, then maybe we've got some insight. Maybe there's others that want to tune into it.

Sponsors Values And Mini Experiments

SPEAKER_00 41:10

It's it's it's interesting again because people are clearly tuning in for your personalities. That's a big, you know, that's that's obviously a big draw draw for it. And I suppose two two follow-up questions. Did you get the reaction you were hoping for after three episodes? Um, did you get the traction? Um, as as as you as as you kind of put it. Um and has it always been to give back? Has there kind of been any other you know, motivations for you guys? Or is it just simply because you want to provide something back to the community and to the profession that you guys you know that you guys have done really well out of and you want to see others do well off the back of it?

Stories Guests Books And Reading

SPEAKER_02 41:49

Um answer to the first question is yeah, we we got great feedback. We we launched three episodes pretty rapidly a few years ago, and it seemed to just take off pretty quickly. Um, because yeah, you might know I mean Andy has had a podcast before, going back a few years, uh Andy Hart. So he was quite a seasoned practitioner of podcast. He's got his Maven Advisor podcast, which he's now put on hold for the time being, might come back to it, but he said that uh and you Nick had his own podcast as well that he ran in classic Nick Lincoln style, did 99 episodes, then stopped. I said, You're not gonna do a hundred. No, 99, which tells you all you need to know about my good friend Mr. Lincoln. Um, so they had a bit of podcasting experience in the past, so we could tell our data and our numbers and see what the number of downloads and it looked. And he was telling us, now these are really good for a brand new podcast startup. This is um this is called traction. And I think this is the point. There was no shortage of podcasts around, but there was nothing really, certainly nothing that we knew about that was practitioners showing up, and certainly it was nothing where there was four. If you know you could have a one advisor who could come on and do a podcast, but if there's four of you, and I think, and that's kind of related to you know the other part of your question there, Chris, is the dynamic of the four of us, because we are quite different, quite different in our styles and the way we operate. I mean, even this sort of businesses, Andy and Nick are avowed, you know, one-man businesses. I think there's the four of us, we kind of we represent the sector as a whole. If 49 to 50 percent of advisors in the UK are sole trader advisors, so 50% of the podcast hosts are sole trader advisors. I mean, Nick is the ultimate sole trader, he outsources nothing, he does it all himself, and he's got a team of people he outsources to. But that's quite interesting. There's a few people around who do that. Yeah. And so they quite they quite like, you know, and we've had and Nick, we did episodes about exactly his tech stack, how he operates, and that's value add. And there's Carl and I, who are running, you know, bigger businesses, and there's others who want to to tune into that. So um that's been you know the it's so it's it's clearly it's been a success in terms of the degree that we judge success. It it's it's a greater traction than we thought it would. In terms of you know and the the purpose and the and the value add, it's actually it it is nowadays. I mean, years ago sent doing a podcast was really complicated, expensive. You had to do it in person in a studio, and and nowadays the barriers to entry are pretty low. So if you like it, it's a Zoom call, yeah, but it does cost you money. You need to do all the kind of tech stuff, you need to host it somewhere, you need to get distribution through various, you've got to have bit multiple different subscriptions. So when we started, it was and we were so it cost us money to have the podcast. So we all had to chip in and cover all the the basic costs of doing it. Um and that and we were more than happy to do that because we absolutely genuinely wanted to give back to the community, and yeah, and we get a buzz. And when people send you these like incredible emails telling you the impact that it's had, look, we've all got egos, and it's it's nice to be able to do. Um and then fast forward to like last year, we started getting organizations reach out to us and say we'd love to get involved, we'd love to support you and sponsor you. Um and so people were going to you know put some resources into it so that we could then think about these other things, like doing off-sites, like doing a trap academy, doing a bunch of other other things, uh, and allocate a bit more time and energy to it. And so we're really pleased. And the other thing about getting alignment and sponsorships, we'd have to, we can't, we couldn't. I mean, we had quite a few offers early on from companies that none of us use them, unlikely to ever use them. Yeah, and therefore we just couldn't handle heart. Say, yes, you know, this, you know, write me a big check and um and we'll sub and we'll put an ad for you in every every episode. So our current sponsors are Vanguard and Fundment, you know, outstanding businesses, um, doing by and non-competing, they've got they partner with each other. Uh, I mean, we really like the relationship that we've got with them, and I think we can direct some of our audience to their products and services because we would put hand on heart and support them from what we know and understand. And again, all of us to vary to at least some of us to varying degrees use at least some of those those two organizations. And that would remain the same. And we've currently got other people who are just keen to get behind us and sponsor it, or or maybe I don't know, you know, cover the cost of an event or something like that, that we can get a bunch of people in a room together. So, um, but to answer your question, it was oh it was a labour of love, and it still is largely a labour of love. We're not getting rich off it anytime anytime soon. Uh, but at least we've got some additional resources now. But our but the resources, as I say, are aligned with our core values as a as a podcast.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

What's what who's the most interesting person you've met through podcasting?

SPEAKER_02 46:47

Uh well, you mean hosting post podcasts? Hosting, yeah, yeah. So it Trat was always just the four of us, yeah, just chewing the fat and talking. We've started more recently uh to have guests on, um, which is which in itself has been an interesting journey because technology doesn't seem to have worked for our because they're doing these live tune-ins and getting people to appear. So we are we're continuing to do this, but we're pre-recording the uh the interviews. But in my own podcast, uh, you know, again, I'm at probably not quite as many as 1980-something episodes. So throughout that, you can imagine, and I've tried to focus on that the business world and the world of entrepreneurs. And I've some I've had some you know, some fairly high-profile people, I've had some controversial people on it. Um, for example, I had James Watt, who was the founder of Brewdog. Yes. Now there's a Marmite character, if ever was one, you know, um full confession. I liked him. Yeah, I I I got on with him. I really liked his scrappy stories of how they got started. You know, they just want to make beer. It's unbelievable, yeah. And some of the just the nutty things they did because they couldn't afford there's no marketing budget, so they just did some crazy stunts in order to get some get traction. And he told, I mean, if anyone wants to hear the story, um go in and check out my episode with him because some of the stuff, you know, they told me the story about uh trying to appear on uh Dragon's Den. Yeah, and he you know tried to raise money, he got rejected. And uh if they had have said yes, it would have been the most successful Dragon's Den investment ever. Wow. Um so he was he was great, it was controversial. Um, I had relatively recently, I had Sir Tom Hunter, who was like Scot Scotland's first billionaire. And I just again I love the stories. He started selling trainers out the back of a van. Eventually he sold a business for nearly 300 million pounds and he sold it on the toss of a coin. And if his head's one way, tails the other, and are you thinking, for real? You know, fascinating. And those those things genuinely, I would, if I wasn't hosting it, I would, I would listen to those because they're business stories. And and there's a whole bunch of others, and then there's some people who are you know not as high profile, but my God, they've got some some stories of it, people that have come from the kind of most challenging backgrounds, um, you know, nearly end up in prison, and they just you you know they have sliding doors moments. I could have done this, I could have done that. And they went on to build, you know, hugely successful businesses. So I I I on a personal basis, I've always enjoyed reading and I've always read biographies and and autobiographies. I like reading people's stories, like you know, how they did what how they did what they did. And I think for a podcast, for the sake of an hour, you can get some pretty deep insight into people, and that people are prepared to be really candid and tell their what's an old story. And by the way, people like Sir Tom Hunter and others have been really keen to say, I mean, one thing that Tom said to me was look, we can you can ask me anything you want. This before we hit record, ask me anything you want, but I do want to speak about failure. I really want to talk because everyone listens to these big billionaire exits and all these things, and that's it's interesting, but it's a bit it's hard to relate to. But if you hear about the fact that he then took a lot of that money and then leveraged it and did all sorts of crazy investments prior to the you know, the banking crisis, great financial crisis, and then kind of lost two or three hundred million, and he wants to go through that that story, how just desperate he was and how awful it was, and share that and how he came out the other side and how he created resilience. I think that's uh you know, to to invest in our to hear some of the stories, particularly if you're going through a challenging time yourself in business. For me, anyway, it gives me a bit of a kind of bit of strength to find out I can I can do this because whatever I'm going through, it's not as bad as some of these other people. And they made it through the other side. So um that's why I listen to I like listening to some podcasts and like reading those kind of you know, real authentic biographies about people's story.

SPEAKER_00 50:50

Because I I remember a um a uh post, a LinkedIn post that you put out a while ago, which was talking you read 20 pages in the morning and and then and in the evening, which I think is you know, which has definitely helped me actually structure how I read. I I I've tried I tried 20 pages a day, um, but what I do stick to pretty much is half an hour. Um but um what's the most interesting book that you've that you've read?

SPEAKER_02 51:17

God, difficult because yeah, I I have got I have read quite a lot and I continue to read. It's funny because in the in the days of like digital distraction, I stopped, I sl really slowed down my reading because you start scrolling on Twitter or LinkedIn, and I think, Jesus, I've got I've I just wasted 40 minutes here. Yeah. Um, and I need to focus. So I try to, which is hence that and I and I did post that because I built a system either built, you know, I just had a little that worked because the other thing was that I also linked I I I read on Kindle, yeah, and I link it to an app called ReadWise. And so it's one thing reading, and this is why to answer your question is quite difficult because I've read such great books, but if you ask me on the spot, yeah, what's your favorite quote? It's gonna, I'm gonna have what they call recency bias. I'm gonna remember the one I read most recently. Yeah, yeah. Um, which is why this this app, ReadWise, is really good because what it does is I read on Kindle and I highlight paragraphs or things like this is super interesting, and I link it to ReadWise and then ReadWise it surfaces as often as you want. So I have every morning at 6 a.m., I get it pops up as an email, and I read 10 highlights, like randomly selected. So it could have been a book I read 10 years ago. Yeah. And I go, oh, yeah, yeah, that's brilliant. But I completely forgot about it. It's randomly they called they call it the psychologists call it space repetition. And if you get like drip fed stuff on a you know, not if you read now, the chances of you remembering that page, that paragraph six weeks from now are pretty small. But if it drip feeds every day, just a little bit, a little bit, you you're going to retain a lot of it. So I read a lot of um non-fiction, so a lot of uh business books, biographies, uh that sort of thing. Uh the best book of all time is How to Win Friends and Influence People, which was written in um coming on for a hundred years ago, probably 80 years ago, uh Dale Carnegie. And it is at the absolute base level. So I so many books I read nowadays, modern kind of self-development books, are based on the back of that. So there's just a handful of basic life lessons that honestly, if all of us read that book and adhered to it in business and in personal life, you would go far. Uh, and that's the one I I always go back to. You know, I've got teenage children now, my son turned 18 next, and I just said I've got to get him to read it. And again, it's a by the way, it's a struggle to get teenagers to read anything. Yeah. Um, but the other book that really sort of influenced me in the last uh year is the Elon Musk biography. Now, again, controversial character, not everyone's cup of tea. For me, again, I don't mind saying, I think he's uh the most uh impactful entrepreneur of our of our times. I think the things that he's doing, the impact that he's making, his ambition for humanity, um, I think it's extraordinary. And the uh the biography written by Walter Isaacson, who's written lots of you know high-profile people's biographies, including Steve Jobs, which is also a very good book. I think I think Isaacson is a very good writer and he gets right into the the weeds of the person, the caraton, and what makes him up. Uh, I just thought that was great and I found it um you know quite impactful for me. I just thought, God, that's the stuff. And he and Elon he certainly hasn't been easy for him. No, but that way he certainly is his upbringing his childhood in South Africa. He got bullied a lot, got beaten up, there's a lot of stuff, his parental situation was not good. And in business, he's had a lot of things that just didn't work out for him. Um, so that's that to me is that those two. If you read both both those books, um you wouldn't go too far wrong.

AI And The Golden Age Ahead

SPEAKER_00 54:41

Yeah, it was uh I I I like the uh I like the Musk one a lot. I think his I what was what I always kind of come back to was how close he was to it all not working, how he literally put everything on the line. Yeah, and I have ultimate respect for that as you know, as an entrepreneur as well, you know, you you really really really put it on the line. Last question then before before we wrap up is on technology. Um there was loads of other things I wanted to talk to you about, but he's never gonna get through them all anywhere, so maybe we'll do a part two. But um you're a massive advocate of technology. Yeah, what excites you most about what's coming to market right now? Two letters. AI.

SPEAKER_02 55:18

AOE. Ayoi A AI again is a cliche. We've heard it all before. Uh, one thing about me, I I do have a slight advantage in that I live in London, I operate in London, and London is, in my opinion, the fintech centre of the world right now, um, competing with Silicon Valley. The the technology businesses that are around here right now, and so I end up going to events and I meet people and have a coffee and I have a lunch and I have and I see what's going on, and it's honestly mind-blowing. So anything that's in the public domain right now, the future is going to blow your mind because some of the things that are not in production capability yet but are being built are extraordinary. And I've got my own thoughts and views, and I just think it is the best thing that will happen to financial planning and financial services, and it will elevate the profession completely. It will create a much, much more human-focused role and experience. Yes, some people are going to have to reinvent themselves somewhat. The days of being a really good technician and knowing how to use an Excel spreadsheet are going to be less valuable for the future. That's a less value add in the future. But the the ability to engage uh ideally face to face with other humans to understand them, to build rapport, to build relationships, and to use that uniquely human judgment in order for those people, for your clients, your prospective clients to achieve all that's important to them in their lives. Um all sitting on the on the platform of a modern tech solution that takes care of all the let's face it, dull, boring, repetitive work that we all have to do right now, but that the machines will absolutely take care of uh in the future. So I think it's great for the profession, and I think also because I'm a complete advocate for the power of financial planning, proper, full-fat financial planning. But it's hard to deliver at scale, which is why we've been very intentional in our business, boutique and style, because we do it properly, it takes longer, it's more complex, there's a lot more moving parts, there's lots of sort of pieces of tech that don't necessarily speak to each other as as good as the you you'd hope. Um, so by leveraging this tsunami of technology that's going to be heading our way, that is heading our way, we're we are able, just using my business as an example, but the same would apply to all financial planning companies, we're able to take it to a wider audience. And that really excites me. And that that drives me. You know, I've come from a relatively humble background, and the ability to deliver this not to people of just significant wealth, people of more modest means, I think it's gonna be so impactful. I think it's gonna be so positive. So I think I really think we're about to enter a golden age for financial planning, and the future is looking really exciting. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 58:06

That's that was really, really good. And I I really, really appreciate your time. Thank you very much for coming down, and it's been a pleasure to meet you face to face in instead of online. Great to see you. Thanks, Chris. Thanks very much, thank you.