How to Get Clients to ACT on Your Advice with Paul Taylor

In this episode of Don’t Shoot the Messenger, Chris sits down with Paul Taylor, a financial planner turned coach who has spent over 25 years working with business owners and entrepreneurial families.

After building a £100m client book, Paul stepped away to focus on what he believes is the most undervalued skill in the profession: Communication that actually drives action.

In this episode, we cover:
- Why clients do not act on financial advice
- Why “sales” has become a dirty word (and why that is a problem)
- The role of emotion in decision-making
- How better conversations lead to better outcomes

If you are a financial planner, advisor, or business owner looking to improve how you communicate, influence, and deliver real value to clients, this episode is for you.

If you want to see what life in Hoxton Wealth is like, please visit:  / @hoxtonlife 

For more information on Hoxton Wealth careers, please https://www.careers-page.com/hoxtonwealth.com

For my videos by Chris, please visit his Youtube:  ⁨@ChrisBallHoxton⁩  

Transcript

Copy

Welcome And Paul’s Background

SPEAKER_02 0:00

So, welcome to another episode of Don't Shoot the Messenger. And today's guest is Paul Taylor. So, Paul's spent over 25 years working with business owners. He's built a very successful financial planning business, which we'll get more into as well, growing a 100 million pound client book before making the decision to step away.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

But he suggested I should walk in off the street into businesses and tell them what I did. Slight issue was I didn't know what I was doing. We have three key resources. We have money, time and energy. It's not just about sitting in somebody's, you know, front room and stroking the cat and they're thinking, oh, he likes cats, I like cats, we're gonna get on.

SPEAKER_02 0:37

Do you think that's a problem? Why do you think sales has got kind of a dirty word within our profession?

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Sales really is the underpinning for the progress of humanity. How can we, you know, just use simple words for hard things? How can we turn complexity into simplicity?

SPEAKER_02 0:55

No one ever woke up and said, Oh, I need a financial plan today. So, welcome to another episode of Don't Shoot the Messenger. And today's guest is Paul Taylor. So, Paul spent over 25 years working with business owners and entrepreneurial families, helping them navigate not only financial planning, but the bigger picture of wealth, legacy, and life design. He's built a very successful financial planning business, which we'll get more into as well, growing a £100 million client book before making the decision to step away into and evolve into something different, which I'm really excited to talk about as well. So, Paul combines his coaching qualifications and financial planning as he focuses on helping individuals, families, and planners improve performance and make better decisions both financially and personally. And he's working closely with a whole host of financial planners as well at the moment, helping them develop into what he believes is the most undervalued skill in the industry, communication, which is something obviously we'll dive deep into as well. So great to have you, Paul. Thanks so much for joining us. Um really great to have you.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Thanks for having me. Friday afternoon. Even a man like you, Chris, who loves to work, must have a spring in his step on a Friday afternoon.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

I have indeed. It's the strong end, as someone said to me. It's not the weekend, it's the strong end. Um I like that. You can use that one. Um so Paul, can you take obviously I know your your backstory, uh, we've spoken many times, but I'm sure uh people listening in would love to know us a bit more about you, and if you could take us right back from the beginning, where you where it all started.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

I think the beginning was uh the alarm going off for a job interview that I'd um you know I'd I'd forgotten about and I wasn't going to get up, and then something something told me to get up, and I got up, and I remember the ad. I'd passed my driving test when I was 18 and I couldn't afford a car, so by the age of 22, I'd not driven one since I passed my test, and I applied for all the jobs that gave you a car as part of the package. So here I was straight into what turned out to be a broker consultant role for Axosun Life. September 21, three years out facing the financial advisors, and there were some great ones even in those days, and there weren't some great ones, it was a classic Pareto 8020. And during that three years, I probably realized I wasn't the best employee. I didn't really like answering and to a boss, and I'm still good friends with him to this day, so he's okay with that. And yeah, a lot of aging financial planners at the time, no different than where we are today, and I felt uh I could do a better job. So I sort of turned down the likes of Coot's standard life and inexplicably joined a brand new um advisory firm, independent financial advisory firm. And the first week in the job, I think the uh practice principal realized that um, well, it was a self-employed role that I had absolutely no strategy and tactics to develop conversational opportunities. So he suggested I should walk in off the street into businesses and tell them what I did. Slight issue was I didn't know what I was doing because I'd only just started. So a Q crash course in how to position uh, you know, a protection conversation and protecting families has always been the cornerstone of the of the work that I've done. Now, I'm not saying it was the best way to go about it, but it was my first introduction to a conversational process and spending time working on conversational processes throughout the years, uh, I felt was very important. Something we don't really focus on too much. I know you do actually. And the reality was I was walking into businesses, uh, which was nerve-wracking. I did that for about a year, and then I caught I sort of called them for 10 or 11 years after that. And the harsh reality is most people in my neck of the woods, northwest in England, are hard-nosed businessmen. And for you to sort of be able to add value, have an impact, and be memorable, A, in that first phone call, and B, more importantly, in that first meeting. You know, I had to develop a skill set that wasn't taught in financial services and many of the things that I adopted, both from a technical competency perspective and from a communication perspective, to have you know, sort of add value and have an impact quickly. You know, I had to sort of look under stones that that were in our traditional sphere of self-development. And we did that, you know, 10 or 11 years. Decent man. And it was probably 2016 when I got cold calling, like everybody, I got too busy. And it was about 2019 where I

Cold Calling And Early Lessons

SPEAKER_00 5:40

was probably burnt out at 39 and had some tough decisions to make. We have three key resources we have money, time and energy. And I was severely lacking in time and energy in my late 30s and had to make some, you know, some adjustments to to give me those those two resources back.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

Very, very interesting. So I'd I'd like to delve a bit more into the cold calling and how you, you know, and how you uh how how you went about that. And actually, you know, obviously people don't make cold calls today. Um, you know, nowhere near, you know, in in my humble opinion, um, sales has taken a real back step in financial planning, whereas kind of pre-R well, yeah, pre-RDR, I suppose it was, you know, it was it was all about sales pretty much. Um do you think that's a problem? Do you do you think that that helps has helped you a lot, kind of, you know, with your communication and and and speaking to people? You know, kick Keen to delve in a bit more on that.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

I think um, you know, a lot of the evidence, and obviously it predominantly comes out of the US, shows that financial advisors aren't very good at motivating people to take action. Some of the stats I've seen typically say that it's only about 20% of things that financial advisors want people to do that they act on. So we are in the outcome business, you know, important outcomes as well in and around life and money and people. And to get an outcome, we need people to take action. And, you know, whatever um skill set we want to call it, you know, I call it, you know, communication skill set that that creates emotion in conversations, and emotion is the key ingredient to motivating people to act. So our communication skill set needs to motivate, it needs to generate emotion, that motivates action and that gets outcomes. We are in the outcome business, and um whatever label we want to give to that sales communication, as long as that gets to a win-win outcome for client and advisor, then you know, I'm all for it.

SPEAKER_02 7:46

What why do you why do you think sales has got kind of a dirty, you know, is a dirty word within our profession? What why do you think people you know so against being seen as salesman when as you you know as you said, it is an outcomes business. You can be the in my again, humble opinion, you can be the best financial planner in the world, but if you can't get in front of enough people to actually give that advice uh and you know impart your knowledge and help them make great decisions, it's wasted. Um so you know where where do you think that comes from?

SPEAKER_00 8:20

I don't know where it comes from. All I know is is that if you know you've got a skill set that can add value to somebody that will drive a good outcome from them for them and ultimately makes a difference in society, if you've not got the required skills to um have an impact with as many people as possible in society in that regard, then that is a failure on your part. And I think again, the sale's a dirty word. I wouldn't want to comment. I watched a brilliant podcast with a lady uh on the Michael Pitts's Kitts' performance podcast recently. She's very successful and she coaches financial advisors now. And some of the feedback on LinkedIn was terrible for her. And I'm sat there thinking, wow, I just thought that was an amazing podcast. Why? Because she had a clear well, they thought it was terrible simply because of the strategy and tactics that she used to generate emotional impact in her meetings to get to get good outcomes. She was all about risk management. Her name escapes me. So when I was cold calling, one of the key things that I did better than than other financial advisors, and anybody who's been coached by me on the content that we delivered to business owners knows is we really did focus on risk management in a way that financial advisors don't transact. We focused heavily on holding companies and the wealth protection mechanisms of those. We focused heavily on world planning structures for business owners and the importance of those. These aren't taught in our traditional financial planning exams. Arguably, we don't get paid for implementing them on a historical business model. And this lady did very much the same. Um, she really focused on risk management for high net worth families. And, you know, I think social media took a dislike to how she did that. But in the end, there was really good outcomes for those families because they were protected from a risk management perspective. Um, so I don't know. Um, I'm not really too fussed about labels, about sales, whether it's a dirty word, but I do concur with you that the feedback I I see um on modern social media does feel like sales is a dirty word. But you've got to remember Planet Earth PLC, which we all invest in, turns over somewhere between 110 and 120 trillion dollars per annum. You know, sales elevates our lives because the world turns over more, makes more profit, and gives us a better life. Now, once upon a time, we turned over zero. Yeah, we were just surviving. Um, so sales really is the the underpinning for the progress of humanity. And if that's a dirty word, then you know it doesn't feel like it is to me.

SPEAKER_02 11:07

Yeah, I very, very much like that answer. And and I'm a firm believer as well that kind of sales underpins pretty much all of what we do, and it doesn't have to be that you're a 1980s salesman running around pushing people, you know, pen in hand, sign a press hard kind of thing. It's actually just making sure that you get your point over in a way that um it resonates with whoever you're talking to and inspires them to take action.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Um I think I think a phrase, sorry to interrupt there, Chris. I think a phrase that's just popped in my head that I think I heard from you know Nick Murray, the legendary Nick Murray, is getting on a bit now. Um he used the term principled persuasion. Um, and I like that. You know, when we if we're trying to persuade somebody because we know they're gonna get a better better outcome when we do it in a principled way, it sounds like sales to me, but what's wrong with that? Yeah, it feels good.

SPEAKER_02 11:56

Agreed. So, what defines success in a client interaction from start to finish?

SPEAKER_00 12:07

I always I always think that we can run very rational meetings as financial advisors. And I think we need to be more focused on running more emotional meetings with a side of rationality. Uh, because if we run a meeting where somebody becomes, you know, has more emotion in terms of their future self, their future life, in terms of protecting it and preparing for it, um, it means we have got them to think in a way that they don't ordinarily think. So a great financial, a great financial, a great conversational process will see somebody connect to that which we don't know, which is the source of all creative thought. Everything that we see has come from a thought. So if we can get somebody thinking more insightfully, get them liable moments, they're gonna act more insightfully, and they're gonna get a better outcome because the actions were better, because the thinking was better. So I think I think a great conversational process from a financial advisory perspective sees somebody walk away from that engagement with you going, that was a hell of a conversation. Was that that could have been the best conversation I've ever had? And I'm gonna tell other people about that. Now we're never gonna get that every time, but I think the goal for a financial advisor is to elevate your communication skill set and have a well-harmed process to give you the possibility that somebody walks away from an engagement

Why Sales Matters In Advice

SPEAKER_00 13:40

with you saying, that was a hell of a conversation, that's one of the best conversations I've ever had. And and our traditional learning testing metrics don't always point us in that direction.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

And you talk about a process because it is very much a process. You know, most things in life actually are, whether you know you're in a process or not. It's it's designed as a process. So can you talk me through more about that process?

SPEAKER_00 14:02

Yeah, absolutely. And if you think about them, the you know, somebody you'd hire, you know, the the you know, a really good future financial planner, as they call them, they come in for an interview, and you know, they're all bright, these young people, you know, big brains, it must be an evolution thing, I don't know. Technically competent on one side and great minerals on the other side, you know, real enthusiasm, real desire to make a difference. But but all that natural minerals and technical competency is absolutely useless unless it's underpinned by compelling communication skills. And most effective outcomes that we see in society come from people having developed credible processes to produce those outcomes. So, financial advisors work a lot on particular skill sets, whether it's technically competent exams or whatever, but I very, very rarely encounter somebody who actively works on credible conversational processes. Now, as a financial advisor, your career is going to be defined on what happens between the opening and closing seconds of your conversations, but we never actually work on those processes, we never actually practice those processes, and that seems incredible to me. And just by default, um, you know, I was doing these meetings, cold-call meetings, you know, crashing and burning on some of them, you know, almost leaving somebody's office slightly embarrassed, and then having to go away and read all the books and dig what dirt I could and try and go in with a better process next time. And it's only later in my career where I really have stumbled stumbled across evidence-based, credible processes that I've implemented into financial services. So, for example, one of the conversational models I use is the Grow model. The Grow model is a coaching model, and it gets the tension perfectly right, I think, that all great financial planning meetings have. You should have the great tension between life and money. Too much on life, you feel like you're in the council's office, too much on money, there's a banality to it, there's a lack of meaning. There's there's no chance somebody's going to walk away thinking that was a hell of a meeting. So the grow model, along with some natural things that you want to see in a meeting process, like contracting, allows a financial advisor to ask questions, really good questions, in the right order with the right process after them. It's pointless being a musician and playing all the right notes in the wrong order. And it's the same with questions. We need a process to underpin it, to ask the right questions in the right order, because a musician's gonna play the wrong notes in the wrong order. The right notes in the wrong order is absolutely useless. So, you know, do you have a credible conversational process for a first meeting? You know, we've got to get to second base first of all. You know, the first meeting, I think I heard Brett Davidson say is the closest thing we have to art in financial planning, and I agree. So, what is that process in that first meeting to make you memorable, to add value, to have an impact, to get to second base, a second meeting? And then whatever area of the wealth management process that you are then focusing on with that client, what is your conversational process in there? What framing do you use so it resonates? You know, how can we, you know, just use simple words for hard things? How can we turn complexity into simplicity? Daniel Cardeman, one of the greatest minds we've we've ever seen in behavioral finance at the end of his life, was asked, hey Daniel, you know all the things you've ever learned, what's the most important thing you've learned? And it's keep it simple. And the more well practiced if you've got a process and it's well practiced, you are going to keep things simple. And it's in simplicity where we tend to get the best outcomes with the consumer.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

And it in terms of in terms of when clients came to you with actual problems, um, and obviously, you know, I get you're a financial planner, you want to build out the how build them out a financial plan, you know, you're not going sorry, move your ice over, we'll pick some funds and we'll and we'll kind of go from there. But they typically wouldn't come to you asking for a financial plan. They would typically come to you with a problem, or they, you know, they might, you know, if you're dealing with a company, I've got too much cash in my in my in my company, how can I extract it? I'm you know, concerned that if something happens to me, what happens to the business, you know, how do you how did you turn that into helping them develop a financial plan? And did you just try and go down that route straight, you know, first off, or did you actually say, All right, well, I'm gonna help you with your problem, um, and then we'll kind of deal with the rest afterwards. You know, what what was your take?

SPEAKER_00 18:32

Yeah. A couple of things uh there is I've never had one of those lucky careers, Chris, where people come to me with problems. You know, I've had to go and find them and make them aware of problems that they never knew they had. Yeah, that's you know, that has been the story of my career. Um, you know, I've just I've just not been that lucky. And um the other the other key part I wanted to make on it, which was really important, it's just bloody uh bloody escaped me, is ultimately, you know, we need a process um in a relatively quick conversation that makes somebody feel comfortable enough that they pull enough marbles out of their pocket. You know, we don't just jump over the first marble that comes out of the pocket when we ask them a question. There will always be a thing under the thing, there will always be something more meaningful under that first answer. And you know, silence is the best communication tool that we have in existence. Who knew? Silence the best communication tool there is, and you know, if we ask good questions, uh and we haven't got time to get into those today. Um, somebody will give us an answer. The more marbles we can get out on the table, um the more the client is talking, the more they're likely to think insightfully about their future. So, in most cases, I had to approach people and make them aware of problems they didn't have, and quite often they were um risk management processes. You know, most of my clients have a holding company, business owner clients. Most of my clients have a sophisticated will that leave shares outside of their business, uh, which has a whole host of you know positives. You know, when we frame to them the problems of not having these risk management structures in place, um, you know, they would then take action. So credibility was built, trust was built, and it was only in those adding value in that way to hard-nosed, whether you want to call them high-red, high D personality businessmen in the Northwest, could you then have a more open conversation about, you know, softer things, more intangibles, like life. Uh, what the grow model does brilliantly is allows the advisor to pivot between G, the goal which stands for the future, somebody's future life, R reality, problems of the present, and then all options, what are we gonna do? Oh, sorry, what are our options to move from R to G? And then W, what are we gonna do? And when you're dealing with a hard-nosed business owner, he's our he's he's arguably gonna spend a bit of time in our reality. What are my current problems? What are my current pain points? Some that he knew and some that he didn't know because I I made him aware of them. And I think with business owner clients, we need to address some of the problems that are in our reality at the present moment, and quite often they'll tell you which ones they want to go first because they have a particular personality, like you, I would say, very direct. And you know, you know, I'm not gonna tell you what to do, Chris, as an advisor. You know, we're gonna get everything out on the table as a result of a good conversational process, and I'm gonna ask you which ones we're gonna deal with first, and you're gonna tell me in most cases. That's pretty much how we do it.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

It's very interesting, isn't it, about drawing the information from the client. Um, and again, this sounds very sousy, but it's not. It's you know, you you you made a point at the start, which was It's it's the disturb at the start of the conversation, like to actually, you know, for people to actually realise that they have a problem that they that they need to talk about. And sometimes it's helping them identify that problem at the start. Um and then and then you know then and then ultimately th you know things things kind of unravel from there. Um but it's get it's pricking up, it's it's having the ability, I uh having the ability, I would say, to grab their attention, like they go, oh yeah, that's actually interesting. I've been meaning to do that, or you know, as I as I say to the to the planners that we work with, no one ever woke up and said, Oh, I need a financial plan today. Like you have to go out there and make it happen. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

And I and just to go back to that, or you know, ultimately, you know, in the end, once credibility is built with a business owner, there will be a financial plan. You cannot have a credible, um, meaningful, long-standing financial planning relationship, wealth management relationship with the business owner, and not have a credible future forecast. I think one of the mistakes we do make as financial planners, we are very much focused on the life of the business owner. Now, wealth, when managed correctly, lasts beyond life. I'm sure when your days are done, Chris, with how hard you're working, you don't want your wealth to die with you. You want your wealth to last beyond life. So some of the sort of financial planning forecasts and planning we do for clients is to have a credible plan for beyond life, to make sure there's, you know, stewardship protocol in place and that their wealth doesn't ruin lives and it doesn't just die with them. I think there's too much of a financial planning focus on the cash flow ending at age 90 or 100. That's it, you know. See you later. I think um financial planning forecasting using cash flow modelling tools to do that for most people needs to focus on wealth beyond life and not just life.

SPEAKER_02 23:57

Definitely. So I'm gonna

Emotional Meetings That Motivate Action

SPEAKER_02 24:00

kind of go off on a bit of a tangent here next, and let's talk about technology. Um, obviously, that's you know, the in that's intersecting our business at a light speed. Um, hopefully it doesn't crash and put everything into uh into you know, kind of smash everything into oblivion. Um how obviously so many people are getting you know looking at AI and how that interacts. Now, obviously, you've talked about communication a lot. I'm really keen to understand your views, and I've got my own views, but your views on whether AI, number one, can replace advisors, and number two, where it can be used to enhance planning businesses and um you know, generally planners' lives.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Yeah, so so just you know, on the on the technology side, you've got it, you've got to know that no know thyself, and um I have strengths and weaknesses, and when it comes to technology and how AI is gonna play out, I'll be as perplexed as anybody's. And I generally, you know, somebody like your last guest, um Alan Smith, who I think talks um as much, has as much credibility on the um you know the subject of technology and where it's gonna take our profession, you know. Whenever he puts something on LinkedIn on this very thing, I'll make sure I read it. Um, because the reality is I'm gonna rely on people like him, people like you who are running big businesses and implementing AI and engaging people to help you do that. I'm gonna be really looking at you guys for the answer. But based on based on financial planners, the ones that are, you know, we're at the start of the second quarter of the century here, the ones that are gonna have thrived at the end of the second quarter of the century are gonna come into two categories. They're gonna come into the category of people like you and Alan Smith that have developed large practices where technology seamlessly interacts with all processes, seamlessly interacts with consumer and your employees, and you know, you know, is greater than the sum of its parts. For you know, individual practitioners like myself or with people with smaller businesses, the onus is on us, is is we're gonna have to double down on being a more skilled human. Being a more skilled human in the sphere of emotional connection, not only connecting ourselves to clients, but more importantly, being able through conversational process to connect those clients to the need to protect and provide for their future selves. And if there's some margin, you know, for the people and causes that they care about. And that is a real skill set, doubling down on being a skilled human in that area to have unbelievably great conversations that motivate people to take action in their lives. Um, we, the ones that are going to thrive in the second quarter of the century as smaller practitioners, are gonna have to be brilliant in that sphere. We are we are not gonna be able to have a role that is really banal around money. Give us your money, let us put it here, let us put it there, job done. Those guys are toast. You know, those guys are absolutely toast in the second quarter of this century if you're a small practitioner. So, one of the one of the one of the reasons I look heavily at you know, being really credible in helping people with the identity shift that comes beyond when you've got enough, um, in doing genuine estate planning, but more importantly, legacy planning, which is misunderstood, which is having a a clear process and plan to help wealth wealth last beyond life, which is more involved with preparing people in families. Everybody talks about this great wealth transfer, and it genuinely is happening, but what doesn't really exist much in the UK is a credible legacy planning process to improve stewardship and money flow and wealth flow in general, you know, values, knowledge, skills, experience within families. So families stay a close unit, and wealth doesn't die like 90% of wealth within within three generations. So I think I think I'm gonna rely on the likes of you and the likes of Alan Smith, you know, and see what you guys do with AI. Um, for me, as a small practitioner, I've got to lean into doubling down on being a more skilled human in those areas I mentioned and making sure that my value proposition doesn't look like something from 2001, looks like something from 2041, particularly with more than enough as high net worth individuals.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

Yeah, I think it's all about the relationship, isn't it? I think that's if you like if you have good relationships with your client, is how I kind of see it that you're not going to be able to get that replaced, and actually it's the amount of people that will actually want to interact with AI. I I saw a really interesting study from uh Oliver Wyman the other day where they were saying actually they only reckon 18% of current you know people who are using financial planning would really convert over to that, even from the younger generation, on the basis that it is a scary topic, and actually, you know, relying on completely computer assisted advice is a really scary thing. Um and you know, number one, the regulator probably won't allow it, but number two, you know, you have to have a hell of a lot of confidence in what you're in what in what you're doing, and people generally with um with money are paying for advice somewhere along the way, be that legal, be that technology, be that management consultants, whatever it might be if you've got if you've got some kind of business, they're used to um that, you know, they're used to those interactions and and and receiving that quality of advice from from a person, you know, more more, you know, kind of mass, not mass affluence, probably the wrong word, more retail clients, uh what may may rely on that. I don't know, and it may actually be a really good way to serve them. But actually, I think at the higher level, it's super important to be developing those relationships and have those relationships with clients because I I just can't see that getting replaced in the next you know 10-15 years. I could be massively off, um, but I just can't see it happening.

SPEAKER_00 30:13

I I see it the same way as you, and and I could be massively off as well. I mean, we use the term wealth management, you've got a wealth management business, it's really a people management business. And at the heart of all people management businesses is relationships. And two things need to happen. You need to be, you know, credible at building relationships with people, and moving into this second quarter of the century, it's not just about sitting in somebody's you know front room and stroking the cat and they're thinking, oh, he likes cats, I like cats, we're gonna get on. You know, we're we're genuinely gonna have to have a um a value proposition that that that delivers excellent outcomes for people. So, yes, you've got to be a memorable person and you've really got to care about people, but you're still gonna have to deliver um memorable outcomes, and AI will inevitably deliver some of the virtually all of the commoditized outcomes that our profession has been accustomed to in the first quarter of the century. Uh, so I I think I think the onus really is on making sure that we double down and and are able to deliver memorable outcomes, potentially that AI can't deliver, but like you, like you, we might be off on that. We'll see.

SPEAKER_02 31:24

We we shall, we shall see indeed. So you obviously built up a significant climb book, Paul. You know, you built £100 million climb book, which is obviously very aspirational for a lot of planners out there, you know, managing £100 million of assets.

The GROW Model And Simplicity

SPEAKER_02 31:40

You know, what actually drove that growth and what actually drove you to go out and uh and achieve that? Because obviously you said you know you burnt out at 39 um or you was feeling burned out at 39. Um what kept you going uh during the period when you were building that up and what ultimately led to you you know get getting to get into where you got to?

SPEAKER_00 32:06

Have I I might be wrong on this. Have I heard you say before one of your drivers was fear of failure? I might be getting you mixed up with somebody else. I don't know if I've heard you say that.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

I think it is, you know, I think I don't know whether I I don't know whether I've said it publicly, but 100% one of the uh things that drives me is um not the necessarily the success of um of doing it. Um it is definitely the fear that I'm gonna stuff it all up.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

Yeah, and and so um, you know, I didn't grow I didn't grow up, you know, wondering whether we were gonna get our next meal, but I I did I did grow up a very, very working working class person. And you know, I was a relatively bright kid at school, and you know, when I got that opportunity and I could see the path to um having a good life, you know, it's just human nature, isn't it? We've gotta meet our survival needs, and you know, once you get on a treadmill and you can see miles down the road and go, if I keep going down there, I'm gonna be able to meet my survival needs. And not only that, I might actually be able to thrive as well. And if you've grown up a relatively working class person, you you don't want to F that up. You don't want to F that opportunity up. So it was that feel of fear of failure um that potentially drove me on. And it can still be a problem as you get older and you you're physically not able to, you know, to do do the thing, the hard things that you used to. Um but you know, I always used to say, I always say I've got a PhD in financial planning, and you can always see the technical people on social media go, I've not got a PhD in financial planning. Phone discipline, and I think we've got to evolve that now um to the future, to communication discipline, communication process discipline, developing your value proposition discipline. But um I was very disciplined. Um now I think you're the most disciplined person I've encountered on social media, and your discipline you know blows me out of the water. Um, but I was very disciplined, you know. We'd we we I couldn't look myself in the mirror as a young self-employed advisor where we when I was struggling. I couldn't look myself in the mirror at night if I hadn't shown phone discipline that day. And you know, treated myself to a Starbucks, sat in my car, made the calls.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

I believe in circadian rhythms, I believe in 90 minute cycles. You know, I was not allowed to leave that car park until I'd made calls for 90 minutes. Yeah. Sometimes, if I got a meeting, I might let myself off and get out of there. But if I hadn't, you know, I had to see 90 minutes through. And I did that time and time again for a long time. And in some ways, I miss it. I've got a little plan in summer where I can almost see some time where I'm gonna try and modernize that and do that in a different way. Because, you know, testing myself in that way, it never got easy. Making that first call was so hard. And I was proud of my younger self, definitely more so than I'm proud of my older self or my being stalked by a pending middle-aged self. But I was really proud of my younger self for doing that. And not only that, we then had to spend time and be brave in other areas and start tapping up other professionals for the knowledge that I needed to have an impact in those meetings. And if you ask me, um I I've never bought a client, you know, so I've I I ex I exchanged time and energy for that 100 million as it was. Um and I always had high profitability because we didn't have, you know, it was all very tidy, but I didn't exchange money um to get those clients. It was time and energy. And you know, I wish I was as good at doing that now as I was then, and that was the number one driver for my success or perceived success or whatever it whatever we want to call it at a relatively young age, was picking up the bloody phone, phone discipline. You know, that's the bottom line.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

That's uh that is um that is super, super, super interesting. And I think a lot of people would be surprised to hear that. You know, a lot of people put it down to I was highly intelligent, very switched on guy, you know. But actually you're putting it down to um, you know, putting it down to that is is is very, very interesting. You did, yeah, I can't not ask though. You've said you're gonna modernize that sitting in the car park and call it.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Oh, you know, it's it's amazing, but I you know, I when I when we do a bit of coaching for advisors, and it's not a big thing for me. Um I I really want to, yeah, I have some bright young people come to me, and they all have the same problems. Um, the in the industry has the same same message. So I give I I I give them what we look at right now in the UK, the business owner from the taxation perspective, as literally coming from the biggest attack this century, which is you know, you name it corporation tax, payroll taxes, pension funds coming into the inheritance tax regime, not being able to leave your business free of inheritance tax, which you historically could do. If I was co-calling now, I had these pain points at my hands, you know, 10 years ago. Oh my god, I am so jealous. And when I present it in a way to a really young bright planner, they're like, oh my god, I've never seen it presented this way. I need to get out there and like you say, make people aware of these pain points. And these pain points are so um, I say better than they've ever been in my career that I feel like I need to get out there again and make people aware of these pain points. And clearly I'm not gonna sit, and it's a limiting assumption, I'm not gonna sit in a car park anymore with a Dunham Broad Street Business Directory and credit safe so I can see somebody's balance sheet when I'm contacting them and their age and stuff like that. Um, but what I can do is is connect with people on LinkedIn, you know, and and and and find a way to leave a memory, find a way to leave a memorable video based on the pain points that I know they'll have based on the data that I can see. Um, as I say, resources, money, time, and energy, and haven't got that much time currently, um, but I I think I will have in the summer. And I'd love to have a go at that because there's too many coaches out there, or too many people telling financial advisors what to do who haven't done it themselves, right? So I I like if I if I want somebody to do something or suggest they do something, I feel like I need to have done that myself. It needs to have been tested in the trenches by me on a real life consumer. So, you know, I I've suggested a particular idea to a couple of young planners, and I'm almost embarrassed that I've not done it myself. So I feel like I need to do it myself for proof of concept.

SPEAKER_02 39:03

I can't remember what Alan was saying to me the other day. I'm trying to remember it in my head now. I think it was nags, no advice given, or

Risk Management And Wealth Beyond Life

SPEAKER_02 39:10

something like this. I think that's brilliant. I think it's uh it's the other I think it's one of the other guys on the on track.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

Yeah, I think I think he's I think he's pinched it from his uh his his erstwhile friend Nick Nick Lincoln. And I I must add I must admit, I want to set on record that I have learnt an awful lot for people that have never given financial advice.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

Um but uh and the the American advisor Matt Jarvis, who'd make a great podcast guest, by the way, he's he's he's very he's he's he's quite strong in his opinions on LinkedIn uh in America. There are too many people selling solutions, and you must do this to financial advisors that's never been tested in the trenches. You know, you know, you you need to have some broken knuckles if you're generally going to help people perform well.

SPEAKER_02 39:55

Agreed. Um it's it's difficult to gain credibility, I think. I think look, there's plenty of people out there that do talk a lot of sense, but in my humble opinion, I'm I would only listen, and that might be because I'm a snob uh with uh with it, but I would only listen to someone who's done it before. I would I would never give like a hundred percent credibility to someone who hadn't advised. I remember my old boss at my previous company, um he was um you know he was probably one of the best salesmen I've ever met in my life. Um and I respected him a lot because he'd done the job and because he was he was still very, very good at it. Um had he not ever done it, uh and had he just been up there trying to tell everyone what to do, I don't know whether he would have uh have the same kind of sway, but I would I would love to see how that uh experiment goes. So you need to make sure that you keep me uh up to date with it.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

Yeah, I'm keen myself. And do you mind if I ask you a question? Um, because I know in some of our conversations, you know, you've had a great financial advisor career yourself, very, very successful at a younger age, more successful than I than than I was at a younger age. Although I've been playing my trade in the poor northwest, you're in the affluent Dubai, so I just think so. You know, looking ahead over the next 10-15 years, you know, what you know, and you recruit as well. Yeah, what do you what do you feel like a successful future financial planner is going to need?

SPEAKER_02 41:29

I feel that there's two types of planners, uh, and this is my again my humble opinion, but I think it's very, very difficult for planners to learn all of the skills to take on new clients and then actually be really good at managing those relationships on an ongoing basis. I really think they're two distinct types of individuals. So for us, we heavily recruit or or try and train uh people who will who are great at bringing on clients, and then what we're building out now as our practice has gone on, um, is actually bringing in people who fantastic financial planners to actually deliver that ongoing planning, so you know, planning need um to the clients. So I think what I look for at the moment is is which camp do you fit in? Um, number one, do you obviously possess the skills of being a genuinely good human being? Um, you know, first and foremost, how you know one of our core values is no ego. We don't want to work with people that you know have massive egos and that that gets in the way, that gets in the way of um, you know, in the in the way of having a good business, clearly. But then it's really understanding are they, you know, clearly not transaction driven, I think that's wrong, but are they, you know, are they really motivated by trying to find new clients? Um, you know, does that does that really get them going? Or actually are they much, you know, so I've got some advisors who who are really like that, and I've got some planners, such as Faye, who is you know, really, really, you know, really cares deeply, deeply about the client relationships. Um and you know, and focused on that. So for me, I I'm looking at those, you know, those kind of two things at the moment a lot. Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

I know uh, you know, reading some of Brett Davidson's stuff, you know, you get lots of emails from lots of people. Um, he's one of the emails that I do read. And funny enough, when I hadn't read it for a month, you got an email off him saying I noticed you haven't read my emails. I don't want to be one of those people. So great kudos for him. That was cool. So I know he says the same. And then so if I listen to like the you know, the Kits' podcast in the US, I think it's about episode 488 now, prolific podcast. And I've noticed in recent times a lot of the really successful um new generation businesses coming through, they genuinely, you know, structure it in the way that that that you're talking about there. So, you know, so for practice builders, that that definitely seems to be the way as we as as we evolve into. To this uh second quarter of the century.

SPEAKER_02 44:02

And it's tough as well, was as a kind of practice owner as well, and I think this is where people kind of fail. I'm keen to hear your opinion on this as well. Is that people naturally think that to be a successful financial planner, you have to go and start your own business, and you know, you have to try and you know go and do it all yourself. Which for me kind of is counterintuitive because you know what actually happens is that you end up giving up the thing that you actually really love doing, which is either taking on new clients or actually you know focusing on the ongoing servicing of those clients, you know, because then you have to do HR marketing, finance, all the other bits and lovely pieces, compliance that comes with it. Like, what would your advice be to someone that's kind of that at that, you know, at the is is know thyself, uh, and it's knowing what you enjoy.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

We all have limiting assumptions about about ourselves, and one of my limiting assumptions about myself is I wouldn't be a good practice builder, I wouldn't be a great manager of people. Um and that might be one of the excuses that I've used to I've had to use other people's plumbing. You know, I've had to use other people's infrastructure, um, you know, 15 years as an IFA and more and more latterly since my transition in 2020. Now I am setting up a separate business next year that won't be won't be regulated in terms of financial products, but will very much focus on stewardship and wealth transitioning families. But I'll still have this regulated side, you know, the smaller business that I have now, but I need to use other people's plumbing because knowing myself and what's like what I'm likely to enjoy and not enjoy is just I do like I I'm like a hybrid of the person you just mentioned. You know, I like catching the fish and I also like gutting them as well. You know, you know, you know, I I love the financial planning side of things, and I love, you know, you know, fishing.

SPEAKER_01 46:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:03

Yeah, at the end of the day. So, but so I love both sides of that. The bit that I would have doubts about my skill set and my capacity to be successful is the process, the multiple processes required to build a successful practice. And obviously, you're housing people, and people are complex, you know, complex things, managing clients and staff. Fair play to you. And I've got friends my age that are building out successful practices, and I look at their personalities, and I think, you know, you're generally better suited to do that than I am. Yeah, sometimes I'm jealous, sometimes I think, should I have done it their way? And deep down, and I know the way I've done it for myself thus far has been the right way, uh, right way for me, uh, and my clients because they get the best version of me as a result, because you know, I've got my resources of time and energy um nailed on nailed on for them. So to answer your question, like a lot of good questions, the answer is it depends. How well do you know yourself? How well do you know your potential strengths and weaknesses? And you know, those really need to dictate uh how how you want to spend your time,

AI, The Skilled Human, And The Future

SPEAKER_00 47:20

those need to dictate whether you do it the Chris Ball way or the Paul Taylor way.

SPEAKER_02 47:25

Yeah. And I think there's no right answer, is there? I think that's you know that that's it, it's what's right for you. Um I think it's um I think people you know naturally have a have a preference on what they like doing versus what what they don't. Um it's uh it's it's an interesting dynamic, isn't it? What what made you kind of, you know, because obviously now you spend some of your time actually giving back to you know aspiring financial planners. Um what made you decide actually, do you know what? I'm gonna step wholeheartedly away just from solely giving advice to actually I want to give back as well now and and help those uh you know, help help those people that are wanting to become great and want to develop their skills and have got that growth mindset.

SPEAKER_00 48:16

Yeah, I mean, you know, look, from next year I want a three-legged stool. I want to, you know, be involved in the regulation side of things again. I've got to be tested in the trenches if I'm gonna help people that are in the trenches. I want to spend some time helping the future financial planner. You know, I'm not interested in coaching people that are older than me. I'm interested in coaching people that are going to be around for a long time. Um and then I want that, yeah, and I want that other side of the um the other side that we've talked about stewardship and wealth transition, legacy and families as a separate business. So what happened was, you know, I had no time and energy, and then we went through that transition in 2020. And then by the time you've cleaned up in 2021, you know, you know, having freedom of time can bring its own anxieties. You've actually got to look at yourself in the mirror, you've actually got to examine what's going on inside because normally you just boom, boom, boom, bum, boom, you haven't got time to think, you know, because you're so busy doing. And so that that you know, that can be a challenge, and it's clearly a challenge for many people that sell businesses. And I work with a coach, and you know, you go through a process with a coach or whatever, and one of the things that came out was no, you seem like a nice guy, Paul. Problem is you don't help anybody, certainly that doesn't pay you. And um, you know, I did feel because of the journey I went on as an advisor, the learning I did outside of our traditional technical exam every go-round, um, that was able to differentiate myself with a business owner client. Um, I felt like I could, I felt like I could genuinely help financial advisors. I think that the challenge for the future financial planner is society is evolving, technology is evolving, the consumer's evolving, but our self-development in the UK is not evolving. So listen to social media, traditional self-development metrics, they've got the guns pointing in the wrong way in terms of performing well and making a big difference going forward. Now, I'm not saying I have the gun, but I've certainly got a few bullets that will go in the right direction in a way that I don't really hear many people talk about on any podcast, to be honest, that's specific to UK. Yeah. So why the ultimate driver was to make me feel better about myself, you know, that's the bottom line. So that is the key driver, and you know, a lot of people when they're giving, oh, look how much that person does, how much they give, um, is there's a win-win service or transaction because the person giving feels great, yeah. It brings something to their life. So the most unprofitable way I spend my time is working with a young financial advisor. Yeah. That's the most unprofitable way I spend my time, but there's nothing that gives me more pleasure. So at the end of the day, um, that is that that that is the driver. I know I can help them fire a few bullets in the right direction, and it makes me feel good. And I'm at an age in life where I'm chasing, I'm chasing feeling good.

SPEAKER_02 51:24

I think um I think there's something uh with that as well, and and I think it's it maybe sound a bit kind of wishy-washy or kind of fluff, but actually I've you know, I personally feel that the more you give that actually the more that ends up coming back to you as well. So, you know, naturally you putting your you know good um good vibes out there and actually helping people who need it, um, you know, a lot of um a lot of reward will will come back to you as well. So I think that's uh I think I think it's a really cool thing uh to thank you.

SPEAKER_00 51:56

Um it's the same in it's the same in wealth management. You know, when we were when we were called calling business owners and we were focusing on the risk management side of things, and we'd have to get um an accountant in to do that, solicitor in to do this, you know, there was quite often

Phone Discipline, Career Paths, And Giving Back

SPEAKER_00 52:10

was an awful lot of time, energy expended before we even go, hey, what about the stuff that I actually do, Mr. Client? You know, so it's the same with clients. Um, and I always hear a talk about I've I've seen talks on you know the one meeting sales process and this, that, and the other. But at the end of the day in life, um you've got to you've you've got to sow before you reap. And so, and I hear a lot of chatter around giving too much away to clients and this, that, and the other. And I get it, but it always worked for me. I always felt I gave a lot to clients, um, especially in that early courting process, um, to add enough value. Um, so they then link my arm as an action partnership for the long term. That's definitely some truth in that.

SPEAKER_02 52:56

Yeah, definitely. And I think with with the clients, especially as well, there's kind of an art in knowing if someone's wasting your time versus if they're you know, if there's genuine interest there, they're there too. But 100%, look, the more value that you can give them and the more value that you can show. And actually, with the means and you know, methods that we have now in terms of you know what we're doing, videos, you know, all those other, you know, all those other things that you can do to actually add value to someone without necessarily having to impart huge amounts of your time to do it as well, I think uh I think goes goes goes a long way as well. And it definitely helps just on the curve.

SPEAKER_00 53:34

Sorry to interrupt again, Chris. That's twice I've interrupted you on. I always I always say to I always I always say to the uh the academy that I work with, you you get away with one interruption, but if I was uh monitoring your calls two, you'd be you'd you'd fail. You've just um you've you you've just reminded me that um yeah the the Zoom thing's interesting. I know you've got a big global business, so all your meetings are on Zoom. Most of my friends' meetings are on Zoom. It's I've spending a fortune on tyres in the last last two years because I think my sort of favourite day is to get to get in this office early, in my pajamas, and prep for a really good meeting. Go in, get a cold shower, and get some nice clothes on, get in the car, get to Starbucks, get a podcast on, and go and sit in somebody's house. And again, the efficiency gurus will be going, Ape shit, that you know, um, that's not it's not the right thing, way to spend your time. It's the right thing for me because I love it. And financial planning is is uniquely personal, and there's nothing more uniquely personal than the being in somebody's home or somebody's office. And I was chatting to a physio the other day, and he said to me, He says, Paul, he says, I know you know you're a financial advisor. He says, I can always tell when somebody's wealthy. I said, Why? He says they smell great. The problem is you can't smell a zoom meeting, Chris.

SPEAKER_02 54:58

Uh brilliant.

Closing Thoughts And Relationship Value

SPEAKER_02 55:00

Well, look, Paul, on that note, um, I think we're nearly out of time, and I really, really appreciate you taking the time to uh to to come on the podcast. I'm hoping we can get another number, I'm hoping we get around to him because this was uh this was really, really good. So thank you very much for joining. Um and yeah, thanks very much for giving up your time to speak.

SPEAKER_00 55:21

I'd like to interject, I'd like to interject and interrupt for the third time. Um no, thank you, Chris. Thanks for having me on. But more importantly, you know, people like me haven't been brave enough to go and build out practices and create employment for people, and particularly create employment for you um for you know for young people. So thank you to you uh for making the effort and creating those employment and life-changing opportunities out there um for for young people. So fair play team.

SPEAKER_02 55:47

That's very kind. Thank you very much, Paul. I really, really appreciate it. Thank you. Cheers.