This is What Financial Planning Looks Like in 2030 | Tom Brookes

Tom Brookes didn't enter financial planning the traditional way.

After writing a list of 200 possible careers, he decided financial advice was the one. Three and a half months later, he had passed six CII exams, secured multiple job offers, and begun a career that would eventually lead him to launch his own boutique wealth management firm, Arboretum.

Tom has built much of his firm's technology himself using AI, creating automations that generate meeting notes, draft reports, review compliance, check data accuracy and dramatically reduce administrative work.

In this episode, Tom and I discuss:

• How Tom went from property management to founding his own financial planning firm
• Passing six CII exams in just three and a half months
• Why more firms should invest in training the next generation of advisers
• How AI is changing financial planning and what firms should be doing now
• Whether wealth management businesses should build their own technology rather than rely on off-the-shelf software
• The opportunities and risks AI presents for advisers over the next decade
• What it really takes to start your own financial planning firm

Whether you're a financial planner, business owner or simply interested in how AI is reshaping professional services, this conversation is packed with practical insights and a fascinating look at where the profession is heading.

If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a comment with your thoughts.

#FinancialPlanning #ArtificialIntelligence #WealthManagement #FinancialAdvice #AI #Business #Entrepreneurship #Technology #Podcast #ChrisBall

If you want to see what life in Hoxton Wealth is like, please visit:  / @hoxtonlife 

For more information on Hoxton Wealth careers, please https://www.careers-page.com/hoxtonwealth.com

For my videos by Chris, please visit his Youtube:  ⁨@ChrisBallHoxton⁩  

Transcript

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Welcome And The Unusual Route

SPEAKER_00 0:00

So Tom Brooks, welcome to Don't Shoot the Messenger. Uh and within a few months, like three and a half, he passed six CII exams. Settled three businesses. Every single one failed. So would you advise other people to do it? And would you advise other people to do it in three and a half months, or in hindsight, would you have given yourself slightly longer?

SPEAKER_01 0:17

The door was closing and I knew I had one shot, you know, quote M and M you only got one shot. But one of the key things I always ask them to start is like, why do you want to become a financial planner? It's like admitting that you're driven by money is almost a dirty word.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Uh property guys definitely know how to make a pound. Are you ready for my soapbox?

SPEAKER_01 0:33

This is my soapbox. If we ever see like a if we see a LinkedIn clip of this, it'll probably be this moment where I'm ranting and raving.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

So welcome to another episode of Don't Shoot the Messenger. And today my guest uh came to financial planning via pretty unconventional route. He wrote a list of around 200 possible careers, worked his way through it, and landed on financial advice, which I think is is pretty uh pretty impressive. Uh and within a few months, like three and a half, he passed six CII exams uh and obviously had a lot of job offers as a result of uh as a result of his excellent uh studying and obviously being a fantastic all-round guy as well, uh, and was in the profession. So he is now the founder of Uberetum, a boutique wealth management firm in West Yorkshire. Uh, and he's also built the firm's entire tech stack in himself as well. As any of you guys will know, we love tech, so really keen to dig into that as well. Um, not off-the-shelf tools, but custom automation and code, most of it built with the help of AI, which is super, super cool. The one man firm we've been talking about, um, and the output sounds pretty remarkable. So, Tom Brooks, welcome to Don't Shoot the Messenger. Thanks, Chris.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Thanks for having me. It's good to good to be on.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

So obviously, I gave you quite uh quite a uh interesting uh build-up there. Um yeah, you picked me up a lot there. I'm gonna disappoint, I'm afraid, I think. I'm sure I'm definitely sure it's not gonna be a disappointment at all. But just walk me through that, like what you know the it sounds like you're very kind of um uh you know, you've got a clear idea of where you want to get to and how you're gonna get there. So, why did you start with 200 writing down 200 jobs?

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Um it was I joke actually. It's I describe it as my quarter life crisis. Uh basically, so I I if you if you the sh the short end of a very long story is from about 16 I decided I wanted to run my own business, and I told my parents, don't want to go to university because I want to set up my own business. And they said, Okay, what business do you want to set up? And I said, I don't know. And they just laughed at me and went, right, you're going to university then. Uh and I had a I had a I had um a presentation at my school from Trey Azam, who was like, I think he was on season one of The Apprentice, and I was like, Oh, this is so cool! Actually, uh an entrepreneur, and I can speak to him and I can tell him how tight my parents have been making me go to uni, and he was like, No, no, no. He says, Go to uni, it'll be the best thing you ever did. He says, You'll university is one of the best places to get exposed to business ideas, you'll see problems that you could solve with a business, and it's really protected. And it's like at the end of it, you're not gonna be too worried if your businesses fail. So I did, I went to uni, did exactly that, set up three businesses, every single one failed. Uh, and then at that time I was I was massively into um homes under the hammer, quite funnily. Uh so I was like, I want to build, I want to build a property empire, I want to build a property empire, and then I was like, right, so what am I gonna do as a job whilst I build my property empire? So I was like, oh well, it just makes sense to manage other people's properties, right? Because then I'll build the experience and then I can start. So I did that, and um I got my first property, but then I got to like the age of like 25, and I'd been doing this for like five years, and I didn't really like it. Like I it wasn't really my cup of tea. Um it was a bit it was of the wrong side of sales. Like you've talked about this before, like, sales isn't a dirty word, it's a it's a good thing, but there is dirt, there is a dirty side of sales, isn't there? Like the people like win business at all costs, pushy, pushy, pushy. And I didn't like that. So I was like, this was only supposed to be a means to an end anyway. I was only supposed to be doing it for a few years just to get some money together to build a property portfolio, and I'm still doing it five years later. So um what do you want to do? So I I'd set up my own business doing that. Um I basically I got someone who was interested in buying it, so I was like, perfect, but the process took like 12 months to go through. So I was like, right, in these 12 months, I don't want to be one of these people that like jumps careers like seven times in their life and never finds what they wanted. So I literally, like you said, I looked at every single job going, and I had I had like a must-haves, nice to haves, and just I literally just map in everything, and just like is that right? Is that right? And to be fair, I didn't even know financial advisor was a career at that point. Pure chance, as I'm going through adding these a friend of a friend I just literally met for the first time, and I was like, What do you do? And he's like, I'm a financial advisor. And uh I'll be honest, the first thing that like lit up for me was he was explaining about managing portfolios, and he was like, I was like, How do you get paid? And he says, I get paid one percent of the portfolios that I manage, and I said, That's rubbish, because like I look after properties for my landlords, and I I get paid 10%. And he's like, Yeah, but you get 10% paid 10% of the rent, I get paid 1% of effectively the house value would be the equivalent, and I was like, Whoa, okay, so I'm I've always been money driven. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That was like big tick. So then I just started looking at it and I started speaking to some more financial advisors, and I was like, Holy cow, like I I would be good at this, like this is right up my street of like what I could do. Um so I was like, I think this is the one. Again, I spoke to more people, got an idea of like what a day looks like. Um big fan of uh watching some of the podcasts and things like that, trying to consume some content to understand like what actually does it look like, the like what's and all. And uh then I um I started speaking to some recruiters, and that was like a pin in the balloon. Because they were just like, you can't do that. It's not gonna happen. You can't just become a financial advisor. And I was like, But that's that's the job I want to do. And they were like, Yeah, you know, I mean you'll have heard it time and time again, it'll be yeah, oh you need to be an administrator first. If you're really lucky, we might be able to get you in as a power planner, and you can skip administrator, and then you can do a power planner, and then you can become an advisor. And like me being ultra naive, I was just thinking they just needed to explain, and so I was like, no, no, no, don't worry, don't worry. I've already looked at those two jobs, I would be terrible at them, no chance, but I'll be a really good financial advisor, and they're just like, Yeah, this guy's a waste of time. So uh I spoke to God knows how many recruiters, and basically none of them was willing to waste any time on me, except for except for two, one of which I just didn't gel with. So the other guy, and I said to him, I said, the hardest thing is gonna be to get people just to sit in front of me. And if they sit in front of me and I can explain my story, I I'll I'll do it. I I know I'm gonna be good at the job, I know that can come across, I'm not just winging this, like this isn't me just you know selling something that isn't there, it's like I actually know that this is a good good thing. Um, but you need to find the employers that are willing to just take a chance with it. Um so I said I I joked to him, I said, if you can get me in an interview, I'll get a job offer from the interview. And surprise, surprise, virtually every single firm wouldn't even do an interview. They're just like, this guy's absolutely barking at the wrong tree. But that was the only way I could stand out, was what you said, and and I'm I'm glad because it worked and it still works to this day, is like people go, holy crap, like three and a half months. And I was like, Yeah, because that's that was my intention. My intention was I needed you to double take at my CV. I needed you to look and go, is that right? Because otherwise I was just gonna go, no, next, because I was just falling victim to the you know, three years experience, five years experience. So that was my way of standing out, and uh it was tough. I mean, don't get me wrong, like it was it was horrible, like it was a not a nice period of my life, but

Quarter Life Crisis And Property Lessons

SPEAKER_01 8:30

it did work. So uh yeah, I got I got um I got a few job offers. I picked one uh which was a self-employed role, and did that self-employed role for uh about two years, and then I got offered an employed position in the same company uh on the senior management team, and then I worked in that position for about another three, three and a half years uh before I left and I set up Arboretum. Um and that was that was just over a year ago. So Arboretum's had its first birthday March this year.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Mazow, amazing. Um, and that's that's a such a cool story. Um few points I want to kind of rewind to if that if that's alright. So surely, yeah, yeah. I I I you know I think people say that some financial advisors um you know charge a lot of money. Um property guys definitely know how to make a a pound, and they uh definitely there's definitely some uh nefarious characters that operate in that world.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Um I still find funny that like like there's a lot of financial advisors that they you know they see like their industry as a dirty word and it's like oh god, I don't want to tell someone I'm a financial advisor. I'm like I used to have to tell people I was a letting agent, like imagine I'm in heaven telling people I'm a financial advisor, like that does not bother me at all.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Yeah, it's definitely uh it's definitely one of those industries until you've worked there or worked with people that work there, you you kind of think, well, you know, being you know, being a property entrepreneur is sounds fun, and it's it is most definitely not um for sure. Um is a very, very tough job. Um but you know, kind of getting onto your so it's kind of getting onto our exams, you didn't knock them out in three and a half months. I mean, number one, you know, obviously that's very impressive, but number two, that must have taken a lot of willpower um to do it. Did you do you think knowing that you wanted to become a financial advisor um helped you past them so quickly, like knowing that that was the end goal? Like rather than actually just be a power planner or an admin, it was like I need this to get to that. So, would you advise other people to do it? And would you advise other people to do it in three and a half months, or in hindsight, would you have given yourself slightly longer?

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Um, I don't know, it just depends on your circumstances. I've had a I've had a few, like, because of how unique my in my entry into the industry works, I've had a few like prospective advisors reach out and they've kind of asked similar questions. Um, and I'm by the way, if anyone listened to this, they do want advice how to get into the profession with an unconventional route. Please just drop me a message on LinkedIn. I'm more than happy to give my time. So much of our profession have given me so much time. Uh, Chris and I would were were joking before, but a lot of my mentors have uh featured on this podcast, they've been so generous with their time, I'm more than happy to pass on. But yeah, that's an aside. Super kind. Um I um I I I think the main thing for me, as you understand, is I really wanted this job. Like I'd looked at every single job that there was, and I knew that this was the job that I should do. Like this, it was a job that was made for me. So that gives you an an unrivaled level of drive to be like, I can do this and I will do this. And also I knew that it was my only shot. Like this was I had to I had to hit a home run and I had to hit a home run first time. Like I knew if I if I delayed, if I missed like the R06 window, for example, that was gonna delay everything by six months, which means I would either have to go into an entry-level like power planting position, um, or I would be unemployed for for six months. So it was I could see everything, the door was closing, and I knew I had one shot, you know, quote M and M, you only got one shot. Uh and uh I I knew I had to get it right, so I did. And I I think that did help. Um, but it's a big thing when people do ask me and they say I wanna I want to come into profession um to answer your question about, you know, would you would you have done it any differently? I I I don't think so. Like it wasn't a great period of my life, but at least it was done quickly and it was over. And what I also find is a lot of people, like they say they want to be an advisor, but then you know, they'll look and this is what I wanted to avoid. I didn't want to try and try and get a job for a a trainee advisor role. And I had like R01 and R02 under my belt, and I'm like, okay, yeah, don't worry, I'm gonna work on the exams. And then two years later, they've done R03, and it's like because if you've not got that drive to get them done, then it just work gets in the way, you start to lapse. Oh well, I'll get round to it. But if you know that's your only window, you've got to go for it and you've got to do it all. Um and and I find that's that's one area that's lacking when people are asking me about joining the profession, it's that's fine, but how badly do you want it? Because if you want to replicate something similar to what I did, you have to want it that badly. Like I did really, really want it. And I see a lot of people and they're expecting to get you know trainee advisor roles when they have just passed R01 or R02, and they're just yeah, yeah, but I'm gonna do the others. I'm like, but the employer doesn't know you're gonna do the others, they've got they're taking a huge risk with you, but you're just basically saying, I'll get round to it. You know, you've got to show them that you're just as invested, if not more invested, than they are. Otherwise, why would an employer take a chance?

SPEAKER_00 13:47

100%. And I think that's what so when we recruit um people coming into our pathway course, we call it Pathway to Partner, uh, which is where we take people, graduates or school leavers with you know no real experience, um, and then bring them up. And for three years, they they go, they kind of go through uh they go through a course. But one of the key things that I want to find out, and they start life as a business development manager, learning how to you know speed to people and and you know building their way up to learning the skills that they need to give advice. Um but one of the key things I always ask them at the start is like why do you want to become a financial planner? Like and and you're really looking to understand like that is the end goal, not that this oh, you know, well, I'll give it a go for a year or two and then you know kind of make my mind up from there, which you know, like if you're gonna give anything a go, you should just not bother. Um, you either do it and you that's that's you're gonna get there and you are gonna do it, or you or you just don't. And I think a lot of people a lot of people kind of get that mixed up.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

Yeah, I think that and that was the thing for me, and that's what I was saying to the recruiter is I just need someone to sit in front of me and see the look in my eyes and see how badly I want to do this and how and how I will do it. And and if they can see that, that's what they'll buy into. It won't be it won't be a C V because a C V it looks

Six CII Exams And Standing Out

SPEAKER_01 15:00

looks crap, you know, it's not gonna it's not gonna stand out there, but you've got to have that drive, you've got to have that drive. It's an amazing career. I mean, you know as well as I do, it's an absolutely fantastic career. So why would you not want to do it? But if you've got people at that early stage and it's just like like you say, like that like looking for something to do for a few years, and it's like maybe it'll work, maybe it won't. It's like, well, actually, we don't want to take a chance on someone who maybe it won't work, like we want someone who's gonna make it work, you know. And props to you because it's a really, really tough thing, is you know, we're all moaning about there's not enough young advisors within the profession, yet actually there's very few firms like Hoxton that are actually saying we're putting the money where the mouth is and we're gonna train these planners up like from scratch because that's a huge investment, might not work, they might not turn into anything good. Um, you know, it's very difficult because until you actually see someone sat with a client, you don't know if they're actually gonna be good at the job or not. It's it it's very tricky. So we do need we need more stuff like that uh within the profession, and I do keep preaching for it. Unfortunately, me as a one-man band, it's like I'm not gonna be able to change the world on that front. But I have massive kudos to anyone who can do that.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

It is it is tough, I think. And but also, I mean, I kind of look at it from a lens of so I started my life on a school lever programme at KPMG. Like I I went up to an similar to you, you know, once you found out what you wanted to do, like hell bent on getting there. So after after school, I I decided that I wanted to become uh an accountant and and kind of geared up that way. But having that focus and having that drive there, you know, I knew what I wanted to do, so therefore, you know, to push through and to do it. But they used to employ, I mean, hundreds, hundreds on these courses of of you know, people that had left university and uh school. And it was such a good entry point for them, but also it's it's really good for the firm because you're getting these really clever kids, uh, you know, young uh professionals who uh gen not as anywhere near as expensive as uh as some of the um as as some of you know the kind of senior colleagues. Obviously they're not gonna produce work to the same calibre, but they're very quick learners and you could you can train them up. But that's the next that that's the next wave of people coming through. And unless you unless you focus on that as a business, you're constantly going to be trying to nick other people's you know staff and talent, which absolutely is not a nice place to be. Um but I'm really interested because I think one of the issues that we have at the moment, and I think that generally look we saw it from the jobs data that came out yesterday as well, is that they're not like with AI, and you've you've used that heavily obviously in construction of your you know of your firm and and the processes and building the tech around it, like those kind of junior positions or those entry-level positions, you know, could potentially soon become a thing of the past. So we'll we'll we'll get on to that. Another thing that you said grabbed me as well, like you know, money, money, you're money driven. And I and you know, I I genuinely think that's a really good thing to you know to to realise about yourself, um, you know, on the basis that some people are and some people aren't. But I don't think it's a I think some people worry that that is, you know, that that is uh that that is could be perceived negative, but I think it's all about knowing yourself and really understanding what drives you, and it's much better for someone to, you know, especially when they're you know coming across and going, look, I've looked at this, I think this can be a fantastic career ball. So I think I can do really well out of this financially over the longer run as well. Um, and I think that kind of that space that maybe a lot of financial advisors have got themselves into, which is where they don't want to talk about the uh aspect of the earning potential and how they can create a business and you know potentially sell that business at a later date if they if they so wish, um, yeah, they're creating an asset for them and their families is something that we should talk about more because I think that that would encourage people when they look at it and go, Wow, this is actually a really entrepreneurial career path that I could I could take as well going forward. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Absolutely. It's like you it's like we were saying before, again, it's like it's like admitting that you're driven by money is almost a dirty word. It's like it's like you know, admitting you've got some kind of addiction or something. Like there's nothing wrong with it. Like like I think especially you know, when we were just talking before about younger people, you know, I th I I see that there's there's there's two massive parts of our job, right? If you're if you're ignoring like what you're actually doing for clients and looking s solely at as a career, there's two parts, and and a huge part of it is the earning potential. It's a very, very lucrative career, but also, especially once you get into the financial planning, which you know as well as I do, um there's the emotional side, right? There's the there's the emotional response that you get um and the job satisfaction from like being able to, you know, allow a client to fulfil their their hopes and dreams. That's massive. But I think if you've got someone who's like age 21, you can't expect them to go into a career and go, oh, I really, really want a high level of job satisfaction. They're not at that emotional maturity yet, they don't know that. So if they're in if they're at that age, they're just saying I'm really money motivated, I think that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. As they as they mature and as they go through their own life experiences, and as they start to have a few of those meetings where they start to realise the power of what they're doing, then the other side comes anyway. If you're like not like an absolute psychopath, like you would it's only natural that you would be quite interested in being able to change people's lives. Um, so I I I don't see an issue with it. Like, yeah, I'm I'm money motivated. It doesn't mean like I'm you know transferring clients into like the highest risk stuff just to make myself a little bit more money. Like that's everything, all that comes right at the bottom. But at the same day, if I'm not money motivated, then what am I getting up for? What am I trying to grow my business for? I wouldn't, would I? I'd just I'd just sit at home and just be like, oh yeah, that'll do, that's enough. So you need that growth to be able to grow your business.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

100%. You need you need that drive for sure. It's it's and yeah, I think like you said, it's you you will never you wouldn't like it's important it's important to recognise that about yourself. Obviously, if that's the only thing, then that's that that can be a that can be a problem clearly. Um but you know, realising that actually being great at what you can what you do will lead to the um will lead to the gain in terms of you know uh the monetary aspect afterwards is is is super key. So like let's so you you know it was obviously at your you know your your I perform it sounds like for eight and a half years uh before you set up your you know before you set up your business, you obviously got into a senior position there. I'm I'm always interested to understand like what why did you leave? Was it always on the cards? Was it always I'm gonna do a stint there and learn the learn the ropes and then you know then kind of move over? Was it an itch? You would always, you know, and I I get that you've always wanted to work for yourself, but why then? What what happened?

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Uh fair to say there's probably loads of things at play. There was more like it was a big culmination of a lot of things, but um for me the main driver was about probably about a year before was when I discovered actually financial planning. Prior to that, I was just A geek who loved cash flow modelling, and I couldn't find any other advisors that loved cash flow modelling as much as I did, and I just thought I was weird. And then I I bumped into one of the guys at Dimensional actually, and it was Andy there, and I was like fascinated by the dimensional stuff. I was very, very interested. And he just said to me, uh, have you listened to the Real Advisor podcast? And I was like, Oh yeah, I've heard about it, but I I I really struggle to listen to podcasts. I I tend to switch zone out when I'm listening to them. Um and he said, No, no, just just listen. I was like, But there's so many episodes, like I don't even know where to start. And he said, just pick any, it don't really matter. He says, Listen to one and you'll start. And I I did, to be fair, I binged all the episodes that were out at that point, and for me that was like an opening to the financial planning community because through the resources that they'd posted, um, I realized that there was the CISI, for example. So I went and did my CISI

Drive, Money, And What Employers Need

SPEAKER_01 23:00

case study. Um, and then all of a sudden I realized there was actually thousands and thousands of thousands of people just like me who thought just the way that I did and thought that financial planning was absolutely amazing. Um, and it was it was kind of like um it was kind of like the ugly duckling scenario, you know. If you're surrounded by different people, you think that you're the odd one out, but actually there's nothing wrong with with who are around you or who you are, it's just that you were meant for a different breed, and that's that's what it was. So um I was at that point, I was like, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna do full fat financial planning and I'm gonna deliver this amazing service. And I sat on it and I was like, I'm gonna do it, and I just need this to happen, I just need this to happen. And then I remember listening to one of the episodes of the Real Advisor podcast and Nick Lincoln. Um it was like he was scolding me through my speakers, like he was speaking directly to me. It was like it was absolutely brutal, but he was basically saying, You can't say that you want all this stuff and then not do anything about it. Like, if you've unlocked it, you understand it, you understand that this is the future and this is what the service that any client should receive, yet you're going back to your normal day job doing traditional financial advice, then you're a fake, basically. He didn't say that, he wasn't that harsh. But and and then I remember that he he said, you know, if you know there's so many excuses that you can come up with, but the world doesn't owe you a living. And he said, Guess what? When I set up my business, I um remortgaged my house to get my um capital adequacy requirements, and I was just sat in my car and I just literally I was like like this this is directly talking to me. So at that point, I was like, right, I commit now, I'll do it. I like I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna find a way. It's scary. Um and it was about six months from there hearing that to Arboretum launching. I was like, go it, pull the trigger, let's just go, let's do this, let's let's figure it out as we go, basically.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

That's uh that's like that epiphany. Um the kind of that you know that that that comes over you. And I mean look, I think what what I find really interesting about uh the the the trap podcast as well is how many people it has influenced. I think it's super cool, you know, like and it's like it's such a it's such a good tool, and it's you know it the good it does people, the community it creates is you know is is absolutely fantastic. So you know, kudos to those guys. Another another and obviously another great business, um obviously of your making, but hopefully, you know, uh pushed in the right direction by by some other.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

I don't like to give them too much credit because they're already egos are big enough as they are, uh as it is, but um I I do say like genuinely like probably at least 60% of the reason that I set up our return is because of that podcast. So made up a huge amount of facts and a massive debt owed to to the guys. It's really really cool, really, really cool.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

Um so you've obviously set up your own firm. You you've set it up so that you know ultimately it is fully tech enabled from the start. From what I can gather, and and please uh correct me you know if if I'm wrong, but you haven't gone and taken loads of off-the-shelf software and tried to bundle it all together, like you've you actually created things yourself. Why have you taken that approach? Um, how do you think that will help you scale as as you go forward? And what are some of the pros and cons of doing it that way? Sure. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Um are you ready for my soapbox? This is my soapbox. I like it. If we ever see like a if we see a LinkedIn clip of this, it'll probably be this moment where I'm ranting and raving. Um go for it. Right is yours. So I remember about five years ago, I was at the Festival of Financial Planning and I was listening to a talk from Abraham Occasania, who is absolutely fantastic, and he was given a uh a his big soapbox, which was API links between software is a clunky system and it it's it's outdated, it's too likely to fall apart. What we should have is one single piece of tech that does everything. And at the time I was like, I completely

The Push To Go Independent

SPEAKER_01 27:30

disagree, completely disagree. Um because uh my main gripe with that is if you have a single vertical tech stack, then you're forced to accept every single piece of that tech stack, even if it's subpar. So if you have a system, which since that talk, obviously Abraham has launched timeline, um and you've got, you know, I'll use timeline as an example. I'm not not saying any particular part is is not good, but uh using it as an example. If you're using your fact find there, if you're doing your cash flow modeling there, if you're doing your risk profile in there, if one part of that doesn't work well, you have to use it because you don't have any other choice, because it's part of your vertical tech stack. So I I did it I disagreed with it because I wanted a best of breed approach. I want you to be able to use the single best pieces of tech possible, but and I wanted API links, and I wanted to demand those API links from those providers to make sure that it all spoke really, really well to each other. Since we've seen basically, and I'm gonna annoy a lot of software developers here, but since we've seen AI effectively, it looks like that they're just absolutely gonna decimate the industry there. Huge I think it's gonna go one of two ways. Either, you know, we're gonna see loads and loads of software developers out of jobs, or we're just gonna see a ridiculous increase in the rate at which software can be produced by those existing developers, um beyond what we can probably even comprehend right now. So, since that I changed my thinking and I was like, So I actually agree now. I think the best way is a vertical solution, but the difference between my opinion and Abraham's is I believe that that vertical solution should be something that you have yourself, because that's the only way that you can guarantee a best in breed approach while still not having to rely on clunky APIs that break and things don't come through properly, you don't have different systems that you need to log into, etc. So I'm a big believer that any firm that's looking at the next 10, 20 years should already be mapping out how to build a single in-house solution. Because I think the financial planning firms, 10 years from now, it will be very, very normal to have in-house software developers. Um, and it will be very, very normal rather than saying, you know, do you use uh de facto or do you use dynamic planner? It will the answer will almost always be we have our own in-house solution. Like we have our own in-house risk profile questionnaire, we have our own in-ouse cash flow modeling software, we have our own fact find, we have our own everything. Like I genuinely think that that's going to be so the real value will be in the business strategy of how you build that bit of software and what you add to it based on your experiences. So when you deal with clients, you'll know what you need adding in. Um so I'm I'm not in the position where I can hire a software developer full-time to work on that. So I've had to kind of do a lot of it myself. Um and there's some areas that I won't touch, so I won't do anything with client data because I think that's very, very scary at the minute. But I've got a few friends that are software developers, they all disagree with me. I think eventually AI will get to the point where it can build something that you could trust with client data. Um I just don't think it's there yet. Um it's it the the main downside to AI is you don't know what you don't know. So, you know, just like the the analogy I give people is, you know, I get Clawed to do CGT calculations for clients. But if a client said I'm just gonna run my CGT calculations through Clawed, I'd say you're mental because I can take one look at that CGT calculation and say that's wrong. You don't know it's wrong, you're just gonna trust what it says. So um, and it it's wrong enough for that to still be scary right now. So I apply the same kind of concept to software developers, is I I wouldn't know if what it's done in the code is actually gonna open a massive hole that someone could easily just hack into and steal my client's data, so I'm not gonna

Building An In-House Tech Stack

SPEAKER_01 31:30

do that. Um but I think eventually AI will get to the point where it's so accurate that we won't be concerned about that, like it will be as good as a senior developer in that in that in that response. Um so I think it's a really exciting time. I think it's an exciting time, but I think if you're still dealing with 10 bits of tech and you're not thinking about how could we actually build a single piece of tech stack, you're gonna get left in the dust in the next 10 years. That's my my my my soapbox. Good.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

I'm I'm in a hundred percent agreement with you. I bet you would be yeah, I I I couldn't I couldn't agree more. I think I I the frustration for me has always been when you look at technology is exactly what you said is is that but and with the greatest respect in the world, that doesn't work like that doesn't work for me, and that's not how I how I how I like it. That might work perfectly fine for someone else. But if you want any iteration on that, if you want any development on it, if you're lucky and you have um yeah, a lot of money with someone, maybe a timeline or whoever it is, um, they might tweak and tune it for your needs. Yeah but unfortunately it's you know unless you have sway or or or waster as they call it in the Middle East, you're not gonna um you're not gonna be um you're not gonna be able to really you know bespoke it for your for your own situation. Um in terms in terms of um you know in in terms of uh few few few things that I'd be keen to speak with you on. So first off is um some of the time savers that you've kind of found, um, which is interesting, but there was a really good analogy as well that I saw as well previously, which was um and I think you'd be keen to get your take on this. So it was someone saying that they built their own uh calendar um you know meeting hub, like like Calendly, and they said how much it cost you, and it was like, oh, $26,000 it costs me on Claude, but it's my own. Like, where do you stand on that? Because I could because I do kind of get it, like there are, you know, like it's kind of that line is like, where can you use what's already developed to a certain extent and have that work with your tech stack versus do you just do everything yourself?

SPEAKER_01 33:43

I think stuff like that, yeah. If like if it was me, if I'm doing that, that's obviously mental, uh, and especially for something as Candley, but um, you know, I've spoken to some firms already that are much bigger than mine, and of course, any sensible business owner is just doing a cost-benefit analysis. So if if you're gonna have to, I don't know, spend £25,000 building a uh your own um cash flow modelling software, but that's gonna save you like £2,000 a month on all of your licenses for whatever software you currently use, then that's a no-brainer, isn't it? Like absolutely, yeah. If you're looking at anywhere over the next two years, then you know you're gonna break even and then you're in profit every year after that. So I think, yeah, there's absolutely significant costs, but uh you know, obviously tokens are gonna go up over the next few years because right now they are being subsidized by the providers, but also you'd probably expect the tools to actually get more and more powerful over that time. So I think personally, I mean there'll be lots of people that disagree, but personally, I think the costs are gonna come down further in terms of building stuff like that. Um, and therefore it's more like if you're looking at a big business where you've got loads of employees paying for loads of licenses or loads of bits of software, paying like a fixed cost and then a very small cost just to maintain it is gonna be infinitely better than a per license cost that you have to pay for any bit of software.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? It's almost kind of like complete reversal, which is if you think, let's say, with like Microsoft when you used to get uh Windows 95 and stuff, it was the upfront cost kept ongoing. Exactly, and then now you've got it back, and it's almost kind of going down. It's that innovators dilemma as well, and people being able to kind of wean themselves off of uh off of off of off of uh you know various mechanisms of that they've been used to create and revenue as as we go in. I think the other key that you said there as well is being in control of your own data as well. You know, my view is that whatever AI um or LLM that you were using, you want to you want to be agnostic to it because as you said, they're getting better. You know, this now it's clawed before you know the GOT was uh was open AI with Chat GPT, who knows what's coming down the pipes as well. Um, so actually being able to flex and flick between different LLMs to utilize on a cost basis as well, um, based on what you need means that you need to be master of your own destiny in terms of your data and how you plug it in. Um, but yes, I mean that we could talk all day on this. But what so let's what what are the biggest time savers that you've had so far? Like more people through how you've been thinking of it.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

So I started with some of the earlier stuff, which was just like basic things, like I say, like CGT calculations, stuff like that. Um I then I took kind of a big offshoot because what I wanted to build first was an anonymization tool, um, so that I could put stuff into um into Claude that I wasn't concerned about him having the data on. Uh so that was a kind took a took a bit of time, but that's then opened up a lot because now, like I say, I've got anonymized documentation. I don't use any like off-the-shelf AI stuff for financial services. I don't use any of the the common tools that we hear about, you know, advisory AI, Marlo, Saturn. I don't use any of those. I'm aware that a lot of those you you can do that. So you could just get the get the license and just literally chuck stuff in and say anonymize this document for me. Um, but for me, it's always been coming back to the core focus, which is automation. Like, I didn't subscribe to any of those because it's an extra piece of kit that I have to log into. I don't want to have to log into another dashboard and upload recording of a client meeting and then have upload a template, upload illustrations. That admittedly, overall still a time saving, but I'm focused on the future, not what I can do right now. So I was happy to invest my time to be able to have that automated. So to answer your question, you know, just things like um I leave a client meeting, uh, I record my meetings, um, that meeting automatically goes to our Google uh our Google server, then that gets automatically turned into meeting notes. I don't have to upload it anywhere. From there, that turns into a nice meeting summary that goes on our compliance file. Um it also generates the um annual planning meeting report. Uh so that's that's all fully done in my template. And all of that is normally available about 30 minutes after my meeting. Um but I don't have to go anywhere to download it. It's already in the client file. Um then what I've just started playing on, and this is a good time to be talking about this, because I've all I've been I started with Claude, well, obviously started with ChatGBT years ago, but moved to Claude. Uh it was actually Alan Smith that that recommended I moved to Claude, and it was the best thing I ever did. So I moved to Claude. Then I did Claude co-work. For anyone who's not really familiar, cowork is is is on your computer, so it can actually access files on your computer and edit them on your computer. You don't have to upload anything. That's massive if you've got like your own templates that you want to use. You don't have to rely on it, it'll just get all funky if it tries to put text in. It can actually like just open a Word document and just put the stuff in that you need it to. Um, but in the last few weeks, I've started playing around with uh Clawed Code, which like that is insane what I can change because absolutely. So uh coming back to your question, the thing that I'm currently working on, which I'm finding awesome, and I am aware that some of the specialist firms like Advisory I'm already doing this. I get that, but I think it's cool because I made it. Um so what I've been doing is running like sub agents, so sub agents have different roles, so like there can be a compliance subagent that basically it's consumes all of like the Cobb's handbook, uh, all the FCA data, everything like that, and it's looking for something that may not be compliant in a in a case, but that's all it's looking at. That's the only job that it has. Then there's like a separate subagent that's like a copywriter. So their job is to just look at how well does this flow, how well does it read, is it user-friendly? Would a client understand the terminology used? Is it a bit uh jargony? And then there's like a third one that basically is just a data checker. So that's that job is to check like the illustration and compare it to the end report and go, oh wait, there's a figure in that one that's not in this one, or this one, the figure's in the wrong place. And what I'm just literally still not quite finished, but very very close, is that that process, so the that APM summary that will be generated, that will then automatically fire each one of those sub agents. They will have a look at it and they will give feedback to the main agent, and they'll say this is this wrong. And the agent knows that it loops that whole process until all three give it a sign-off and say, Yeah, that's good to go.

Automation Workflows And AI Subagents

SPEAKER_01 41:00

And from what I've done so far, that's massively cutting down on what I actually have to do with the end report because I'm not having to check anywhere near as much stuff because a lot of that is getting swept up in the loops. So they're they're doing a few iterations, going round, saying this is a problem, this problem, this problem. Okay, back for another round of check-in, go again. Uh, and then what I'm getting is much, much closer to me saying that's actually ready to go to a client, which I find that cool as hell, man. Like, that's I mean, I am a geek, but that is that is insanely cool.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

Yeah, it's it's it's it's the next iteration, isn't it? It's like, how can I have a call like we're having now where we're talking through their plan, the advice you're gonna give, come off, and then it's literally 30 minutes or so, it's in my it's I I'm still gonna have to check it because clearly it's gonna come out in your name and you're gonna sign off on it. But if I just go tick, it's off, client then ticks and says, Yes, I agree, or you know, if they've got any questions, obviously we'll call you, but let's say they agreed. It then it then automates everything from there onwards. Um, in terms of implementation, in terms of you know, any anything any other processes at back that needs to get done, like as a as a user experience or as a client experience, I mean that's the holy grailer. It's like, why why does it take me 10 days to get a piece of advice out and uh and to and to you know and then to implement it? I mean, it's it's it's it it's insane. Um, but yeah, I don't I don't think that's geeky at all. I think that's really cool too. So maybe I'm a geek as well.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

You're you're right though, like because like from a client's perspective, if you go through and you have a meeting and you recommend some changes to part of that meeting, you go, okay, based on the back of that. When does the client, if you're if you're being honest and we're ignoring expectations, if you said to the client, when would you actually want to read through that report? It's probably just like straight away. It's like straight off the back of that meeting. They just like it sent to them, done. They can read through while it's fresh in their mind, they know exactly you've just we've just finished the meeting, we know exactly why Tom said he did, what etc. etc. They don't want it two weeks later, like a life happens in two weeks, and there's so much stuff in there that's gonna they're gonna have forgotten about. Um, so I think we're working towards that, and also you know, coming back to I love my job, but there are huge parts of my job that are not fun, and admin is one of them. If we could get rid of the majority of that and just have a job where, like you say, I just sit with a client, solve problems for them, make sure they're on track, and then I leave that meeting and everything else is taken care of. Oh, that is the holy grail, isn't it? Like that would be amazing.

SPEAKER_00 43:31

Yeah, 100%. I mean, claw code as well is is absolutely fantastic. I think powerful. I well, because I I speak to my developers about it, and I understand I you know keen to understand how they're using it. And um they they say that um so we have 25 in-house developers, uh, effectively obviously back end, front end engineers, uh product uh product managers, yeah, etc. So not all obviously you know coding or at the coal face every day, but how they're using it is to speed up. the sprint. So what we might do in a two-week sprint previously the iterations can be done in 24 hours. Um it's it's like it's like they're reviewing the code instead of checking it, which is very similar to what you're saying instead of the in it instead of the you know the the you're not writing the advice you're checking it. So you know which is which is a di which is a different you know a different concept and then having agents that are specific for each piece underneath is again where I think a lot of people get it wrong. They're like well it should know how to check it all and it's like well if you gave me 200 things to check I'm going to miss a few off but actually if you give me if you gave 20 of me 10 things to check we'll probably get them right. And you know and you can be much more much more prescriptive than that with the master or the the what they ever they call it the coordinator at the top um you know moving it down.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

So very very very interesting I'd be really keen for a demo as well if uh if you've ever got uh if you've ever got time that that to be fair I mean I I'm I'm very much a novice in this area I find it really interesting and I am kind of tinkering with stuff but there are some absolutely fantastic firms that are building like massive behemoths of of tech all vertical. And I'm sure I'm sure Hoxton like that's the direction that you guys will be going in as well. Like I'd love to see tech that gets created in the next five ten years off the back of this AI rush because there's loads of firms that have the resources they do have the power to have loads of in-house software developers and what they can do is like a thousand times what I can do. So I'm excited to see that like I'm excited to see what some of the big players come out with in terms of bespoke tech and the stuff it can do.

SPEAKER_00 45:39

But what a USP as well yeah what USP for the firm to be like if you've got your own cash show modelling like you've invested £100,000 in building the best cash show modeling you've you've you've beaten everything out there but you can only get it if you work for your firm wow yeah you're gonna attract you're gonna track the people that that you know track the people that appreciate it for sure aren't you but I think exactly the other thing that you have as well the issue is that you get bigger Tom and this is this is another thing is is that it's adoption so like again it's great that you love it and it's great that I love it but actually if all the people that work with us don't and they just couldn't care like you have to create that you have to create that kind of ecosystem or culture within your firm that you are technology first and that you know it works for you because you love it and you live it you breathe it you know you're passionate about it whereas if you've got someone who is not so you know uh so so um happy about you know these changes and making things better you know they're very happy to type it out it's it's very difficult to get them up the curve and that's where I think that a lot of the bigger firms will struggle and actually you'll start to see new entrants coming up that may be better funded.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

Which is um that was that was a big thing for me but was that you know setting up by myself I wanted to be able to be nimble I wanted to be able to make changes on the on the fly and I didn't want to have to kind of answer to anyone as to why a project that I've just spent 20 hours on was actually just a massive flop. And that was that was when you're in certainly for me it wasn't a big firm but it was a medium sized firm and you've got a lot of people like you say who are not really engaged in in tech development and you're having to explain why you've spent all these resources all this time and it just didn't work that's very difficult. So you need people buying to understand that like it's not all going to be perfect. Like you're gonna have to spend a lot of time along the way and for me I just wanted that person to be me. So I'd be like yep that was a fail. I tried that it spent I spent a week working on it and it didn't work. But I save that by stuff that does work a time saving that when it does when it works it really you know punches lights out.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

It's it's creating that culture that it's okay to fail as well I think is is key definitely because the only way that you're gonna get better at this stuff is by tinkering around and playing with it. And we we so we set up an AI brainstrust um where we you know where where we you know like because again I'm learning things from you now you know who knows if you know we were to talk you might you might learn some stuff that we're doing and think that's cool and implement but the only way that you learn is by talking about it like just going around in your own head and trying to understand the art of the possible is is is tough and even from people outside of the bit uh of the business we we've learned so much on different use cases and how they're using it um but it's is creating those groups and having people around and also knowing that like you said you could do something the whole day I mean the amount of weekends that I've spent messing around writing something that I've never used since I've wasted time but it just brings you up the curve in terms of the art of the possible and what what you can actually deliver and use it to solve problems.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

Yeah and I think as well your like your abilities with it like I I saw like a a LinkedIn post that was like if you if you rewind to when the penny farthing was invented and you've got one guy who's like I'm gonna master this and he it he cycles on the penny farthing and then when they get the next upgrade he cycles on that and then they get all the way but then there's a second guy and then he's like um I'm just gonna wait till the racing bike is invented before I learn to cycle and you're like which one of those is going to be better at cycling when the racing bike is invented it's the same principle. It's like just because AI isn't perfect right now if you're sat on the sideline saying I'm gonna wait for it to be perfect before I jump in you're gonna be years behind everyone else. You have to be developing this as a skill as the AI gets better.

SPEAKER_00 49:34

100% it's reps it's like with anything in life the more reps you do of it the better you get um

Going Solo And Finding Your North Star

SPEAKER_00 49:40

absolutely could not could not agree more. Now I know we're nearly at time now so I've got one last question for you if that's alright Tom. Go on. If a financial planner listening to this is three years into an employee role and thinking about going on their own what's the one thing they need to be clear before they you know make the jump and kind of go it on their own if if that's what they so wanted to do?

SPEAKER_01 50:04

I mean I'm gonna ignore the cop-out answer which is obviously income you know you've got to decide where the income's coming from I just think that's a very boring answer. I I quite like uh yeah it's it is true obviously but it's just like everyone can give you that answer and and and of course if anyone's gonna settle for themselves they'll have had to figure that out because there's no way they'll do it without um I quite like Nick's Nick Lincoln's uh thing of start with the end in mind you know what what is the actual end goal and then work backwards from there. But I think for me if I was going to give you a a a a more interesting answer um like what are you trying to achieve from a actual like goals perspective not the business goals but like what are you trying to for me the thing that I was trying to achieve was I wanted to create more of those experiences where clients tell me that I've changed their lives. Like that if I had to like pin it down to one because yeah money can be good uh it but you know you'll have months where you won't make as much money months where you will make money and you need something that's going to drive you through all that and if you can find something that like to me I do joke but like that feeling when a client says to me Tommy you've just given us five years of our life that is like a drug and I just want more and more hits of it. So I will I'll push through all the pain I'll deal with all of the bad months because I just want to create more of those experiences. If you can find something like that I think like like you know I know the the phrase your north star I quite like that like if you can find your north star like what what is going to drive you through all of the sleepless nights and what's going to make it all worthwhile and for me that's what it was.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

Awesome. Thank you so much Tom that was super super useful and I I really really enjoyed our our chat today um I knew I would I knew I'd enjoy it Chris and I did I was I blog that so uh thank you very much good awesome thank you very much have a great day and thanks very much for coming on and thank you to everyone for listening appreciate it thanks guys