Ep 10 - Turning Feedback into Loyalty | Eddie Staley & Kristen Herndon

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and guest host Jill Davis sit down with Eddie Staley, Chief Innovation Officer, and Kristen Herndon, Director of Client Experience at WithersRavenel, an employee-owned engineering and consulting firm built around the idea that when employees think and act like owners, clients feel the difference.

Eddie and Kristen share how WithersRavenel connects culture, innovation, and client experience to deliver measurable impact. They unpack how employee ownership drives accountability, how client feedback loops shape continuous improvement, and how empathy turns data into loyalty.

From turning “detractors” into “promoters” to measuring satisfaction through Net Promoter Scores (NPS), this episode explores how intentional listening and internal collaboration create consistency, trust, and growth — one experience at a time.

In this Episode

• How employee ownership translates into client care (00:03:10)
• Building systems that make client feedback actionable (00:07:45)
• Using NPS and sentiment data to strengthen relationships (00:14:20)
• The role of empathy and curiosity in turning feedback into loyalty (00:19:55)
• Connecting internal culture with external client experience (00:25:40)
• Creating scalable, repeatable CX processes in professional services (00:31:15)
• The future of client experience in employee-owned firms (00:37:30)

Guests

Eddie Staley is Chief Innovation Officer at WithersRavenel, where he leads efforts to align data, technology, and culture in service of a stronger client experience.

Kristen Herndon is Director of Client Experience at WithersRavenel, guiding firm-wide initiatives to collect and act on client feedback, strengthen relationships, and translate insights into continuous improvement.

Together, they help connect the dots between ownership mindset, innovation, and client satisfaction.

Resources

The Customer Experience Playbook
The Intangible Brand episode featuring Tim Asimos (Client Savvy)
WithersRavenel — withersravenel.com

Connect With Us

Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead

Learn More about TOKY & Cline

Get In Touch: hello@theintangiblebrand.com

Transcript

Transcript

[0:04]

Introduction to Client and Employee Experience

Eddie

[0:00]A great client experience is what we all want, a great employee experience. But ultimately, too, how does that affect the bottom dollar? Is when we implement this, we have less rework, we have happy clients, happier employees, more productive employees, and more repeat business with clients. And it's just because we provide an experience that that client wants to come back to.

Kristen

[0:21]Because success here at Withers-Ravenell is shared, I think for our clients, we want them to know that that means that they're working with people who are genuinely invested. So not just invested in the success of one project, but really the long-term health of the communities that we serve.

Jerry

[0:41]Welcome to The Intangible Brand, where we explore the connection between employee experience and client experience, and the hidden forces that make brands stick. I'm Jerry Janaria, and today I'm joined by a special co-host, Jill Davis, Chief Strategy Officer at Kline. Jill's stepping in for Carl instead while he's out, and we're excited to have her perspective in today's conversation.

Jill

[1:02]Thanks, Jerry. I will do my best to fill Carl's shoes. I do have a Diet Coke open right now sitting next to me. So hopefully I can channel my inner Carl. I've been with Klein for about seven years now, moving from marketing director to chief strategy officer. So I'm super excited about our guests because I'd love to pick their brain today.

Jerry

[1:20]That's awesome. Well, speaking of our guests today, we're joined by two guests from Withers Ravenel. Eddie Staley is the chief experience and innovation officer and Kristen Herndon is client experience manager. And Withers NewsRavenal is a 100% employee-owned firm, and both Eddie and Kristen are leading efforts to connect employee ownership, innovation, and client experience in meaningful ways. So, Eddie, Kristen, thanks for joining us.

Eddie

[1:45]Glad to be here.

Kristen

[1:46]Thanks for having us, guys.

Jill

[1:47]It is awesome to connect with both of you, and I am dying to know, because as a marketer in this industry, if you've ever talked to anybody, they will say, I did not even know that this existed. Like, there is no direct path to this side if you're a non-technical person. And so I am dying to know Eddie and Kristen as, you know, the CXIO and the client experience manager. Like, what was your journey to get to where you are today?

Eddie

[2:12]Well, that's a great question. I've been in the AEC space for over 30 years and with Withers Ravenel for over 22 years. And really, I'm a technical guy, right? I mean, I'm a PLS, GISP, I ran a department, was really kind of a seller doer, and eventually continued to move up and really understood the value of the client experience and just the relationships that we build with our clients. And ultimately, that led me to lead our business development and marketing for our company. So again, I have some of that background as well. And about 10 years ago, we decided that in our industry, it was really important to really focus on the clients and quite honestly, our employee experience as well. And so we began that program about 10 years ago, and I was chosen to lead that. And it's been an exciting journey for the past 10 years of building our client experience program. And Kristen, maybe, you know, tell a little bit about how you ended up here and maybe some of your background.

Kristen

[3:14]Yeah, definitely. My journey into this role has been a little bit unique, but still feels like a natural kind of evolution for me. I spent over a decade in parks and recreation. And so working in nonprofit, commercial collegiate, and then ultimately the municipal sector. And that kind of gave me a wide lens on how people engage with spaces and experiences. And I've always just been drawn to kind of the bigger picture of how those spaces come to life. And the project management side of creating parks and public spaces is something that I really enjoyed as well. So about two years ago, I came over to the dark

[3:58]

The Journey to Client Experience Roles

Kristen

[3:55]side, as the parks and recreation sector calls it. But I started out in an admin role with our client experience practice area and really just dove in learning all about client experience. Started really getting going some of the initiatives that were out there for our practice area too, and then transitioned into a client experience manager. And I'm still able to kind of bring that same passion for people and collaboration and thoughtful design into new context here.

Jerry

[4:27]Yeah, that's amazing. And that's a really interesting journey is coming from, you know, the technical side or working in industry and coming into these kind of customer focused roles. But one thing I'm wondering about in the in the intro, I mentioned that your firm is employee owned, and that's still not the norm in the industry, although we're starting to see more and more of that, Does that model or how does that model shape how you're approaching employee and client experience?

Eddie

[4:56]Well, I think it does give every one of our employees sort of this owner mentality, right? You know, that what they do at work every day does make a difference with their co-worker and quite honestly with the client too as well. And so I do think it creates a higher level of accountability for each other and for excellence. Again, you know, the Withers and Ravenel brand has been around for 40 years and, you know, we have some legacy that we want to live up to and be the best that we can be. And again, as an employee owner, we all benefit from, you know, from a successful company.

Jerry

[5:30]Makes sense.

Kristen

[5:31]Yeah, I would say. Oh, sorry.

Jill

[5:33]No, no, no. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Kristen

[5:34]I was just going to say, yeah, it really changes how you show up on a day-to-day basis. As I mentioned, coming from a municipal parks and recreation position and then coming over to an ESOP, there's definitely a change in how everybody works together. There's that shared sense of responsibility and pride in the work you do. And that's because we all have a stake in the outcome. So it really just encourages us to think long term and stay really invested in the success of each of our projects.

Jill

[6:10]So how do you connect to those two? You've got the client experience piece of it, but you also have employee experience. So knowing that you're an ESOP, like, are there places where those two things overlap that help with your ESOP, that help with your culture, things like that? Like, how do those, when you're doing client experience, when you're explaining it to people, when you're in the day-to-day step of it, how do they overlap with each other?

Eddie

[6:34]Well, and Kristen can dive into this a little bit more, too, as well. But, you know, we have a saying, if you're not having a good employee experience, then it's probably going to be difficult for the client to have a great experience, right? If you're not excited about the work that you do and the people that you work with and, you know, if that's not happening, then that's going to show up on the external, not just on the internal side of the company.

Eddie

[6:57]The other thing that we do, we do have our core values. I won't go through each one of those, but, you know, collaboration is a big one. Respect, integrity, you know, those are some of the core values in the company. And we've actually implemented 26 fundamentals, ways that we can live out those core values, both on the employee experience side and on the client experience side. And that's a brand promise that we make with our clients, that this is how you're going to see us show up when we're working with you. And so some of those are like be nimble and adjust, you know, practice blameless problem solving. Those are fundamentals. And every two weeks, we're engineers, so that's the reason why we picked 26, 52 weeks a year, right? So every two weeks, a peer is nominating another co-worker or, you know, someone that they've worked with to say, hey, I saw them live out this fundamental in this past two weeks. And the CEO of the company does an all blast to the entire company, and we all celebrate together. So celebration is a big part of that. Just reinforcing, you know, how do we show up? I think Kristen said it great. how do we show up at work with our coworker? How do we show up with our clients? And these are some of the behaviors that we're expecting to see on a regular basis. Kristen, anything else there that you think would be good to add?

Kristen

[8:13]Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. But I would just say because success here at Withers Ravenel is shared, I think for our clients, we want them to know that that means that they're working with people who are genuinely invested. So not just invested in the success of one project, but really the long term health of the communities that we serve. I think we say it all the time, we're not just checking a box, but we're thinking about how each decision really supports sustainability and future growth. And we're focused on really building that lasting relationship and creating spaces that, I guess, truly reflect the needs of the communities where we are. And ultimately, that helps us employees in return too, because, I mean, we feel empowered. We know we can contribute ideas. And in the long run, that really contributes to revenue growth and higher profitability.

[9:08]

Employee Ownership and Its Impact

Kristen

[9:08]So we're all in.

Jerry

[9:10]Kristen, in your role, you're probably a little closer to the day-to-day client interaction than Eddie is. And correct me if I'm wrong, but what do clients notice do you think most about working with WithersRavenill that really is making that difference?

Kristen

[9:25]I think what they really notice is how we show up and how we make each project kind of personal. My role as the client experience manager is really about the people we serve directly. So I'm focused on the understanding of their needs and removing friction and making sure that every touchpoint feels thoughtful and inhuman. So it's about building that trust and loyalty through religious consistency.

Eddie

[9:53]Yeah, and we have a saying, we call it the platinum rule, right? And the platinum rule is treat people the way they want to be treated. So ultimately, it really is about getting to know what the client's preferences are, what's their best form of communication? Is there a better time of day to communicate with that client? Do they have internal forces that we can lean into to make their life easier, right? Their job easier. And it can be very simple things like, hey, if you can get your invoicing to me by the 10th of the month, that's going to line up perfectly of what my process is to get that, you know, get that approved inside my business. Or I have a council meeting coming up. If you, you know, knowing that and being able to help them get prepared for that council meeting, it's those little small engagements and that constant engagement with a client that, again, I think builds that relationship. And ultimately it is about building client lifetime value. Again, a good client experience is a great thing for our employees, but, you know, we kind of break this down into employee experience, client experience, and then quite honestly, revenue experience, because there is a business side of this as well. It's, you know, all these things are great to have a client, a great client experience. It's all, it's what we all want, a great employee experience, but ultimately too, How does that affect the bottom dollar?

Eddie

[11:11]And ultimately what we've seen is when we implement this, you know, we have less rework. We have, you know, happy clients, happier employees, more productive employees and more repeat business with clients. And it's just because we provide an experience that that client wants to come back to.

Jill

[11:28]So I've got to know, Eddie, you've got that I in your title, that innovation in your title. Withers is, Withers Revenile has been around for 40 years, 40 plus years. What does innovation look like then from that client experience and employee experience side?

Eddie

[11:45]Well, you know, the innovation role certainly lean, it covers more things than

[11:52]

Innovation in Client Experience

Eddie

[11:51]just client experience at the company. But where it kind of shows up in the client experience side is, you know, think about our world today, how fast communication is and what people's expectations are. And, you know, it used to be, well, I'll call and leave a voicemail. Maybe they'll call me back, you know, within the next couple hours or whatever. Now it's instantaneous communication. I mean, we're doing a podcast today, right? So it's different forms of communication. So how do we leverage that technology to better align with what the client's needs are. And maybe, you know, speed matters for a lot of our clients, particularly on the private development side. And so how do we speed up communication? How do we have more effective communication, but at the same time, as Kristen said, not lose that human interaction, right? Not make it mechanical, not make it, you know, technical where it starts to feel cold and not connected. That's really where we lean in. The other thing is, I think, you know, as AI continues to be more and more a part of our communities and our workplace, you know, how do we lean into that? How can we leverage that just like we've leveraged social media and other platforms to be able to be.

Eddie

[13:02]You know, more connected with our clients. What does that future look like with AI? The main place that we're using AI right now is really on the analytics side, because with every client interaction, we're constantly getting feedback from that client. And we're, you know, looking at those small, those small things that we can adjust and adapt to better align with that client's needs. So right now, analytics is probably my biggest area of innovation, lean, kind of lean in on innovation on the client experience side. You know, we have the, we have our, our client kind of four square where we're looking at our, basically understanding who our ideal clients are. And, you know, quite honestly, there are times you have clients as well that maybe aren't the best fit for us, or we're not the best fit for them. And, you know, that's, that, that's something that we need to understand and recognize early and, and, and try to transition that client to maybe a better partner.

Jill

[13:55]I love that you said voicemail in the same sentence with AI. Pick up the phone and leave a message.

Eddie

[14:02]Yeah, that's like crazy talk, right? You know, use the phone to talk to somebody. That sounds crazy. So you'll have a lot of clients that are like, do not send me a text. You know, please call me. And again, that's important. You need to know that.

Jerry

[14:16]Yeah. Kristen, a lot of what Eddie was talking about just sounds like the kind of relationship building that I think professional service firms often talk about, but it sounds like what you guys are doing is really creating a framework to make that more concrete. So I'm wondering, Eddie mentioned a few things, but from your perspective, are there specific things about improving client experience that helps define it more concretely? Because it can feel a little vague sometimes.

Kristen

[14:48]Yeah, definitely. I mean, we have several initiatives here at withers-raven now on how we improve client experience or we do trainings for client experience and broadcasting client experience across the company. And I might mess this lineup, but it's something that gets mentioned to me all the time that we're speaking to a parade. So we've, We've always got new people coming in, maybe people who haven't really learned about client experience as much. So we're constantly broadcasting what client experience is, how we can have great client experience, how to work with clients, our client feedback tool data and metrics and kind of how that affects the company and how that affects our ESOP. So we're, I mean, to say in a short term, we're just constantly broadcasting our efforts in client experience and how we could be better at client experience here at Wither's Ravenel.

Jerry

[15:52]Yeah. And you mentioned measurement. What tools are you using to measure client experience?

Kristen

[15:58]So I think there's a lot of ways that we're measuring success of client experience. it's kind of a mix. So we can measure it like with data or we can measure it kind of how we feel. So on the data side, we're looking at things like our net promoter score, our client feedback tool scores, response rates, and of course, our financial performance. But those numbers kind of help us track trends and maybe spot where we're improving or where we need to dig in a little bit more. But just as important are the less tangible signals. So when clients recommend us without us even asking them when they invite us to community events and when they're just like genuinely enjoying working with us and they're striking up conversations with us. I think that's when you know the experience is resonating and that we're actually kind of doing what we're out there meaning to do. And it's not just really about the satisfaction. It's more about, I guess, the connections.

Jill

[16:59]I will say, client experience is something outside of this industry I had always

[17:05]

Measuring Client Experience

Jill

[17:03]heard, like the CXO, what do they do? I used to work in consumer goods before I came to professional services. So I think my question for you guys is, I want to say client experience has become, I don't want to say all the rage, but it's become more and more popular probably in the last five, maybe 10 years. You hear it more and more often in the professional services industry. So where i'm going with this is withers ravenel had to start somewhere what did that look like like i can only imagine what that meeting was like when somebody said you know what we should think about client experience and we should have a cxio and a client experience manager and you had to explain this so what did that look like for withers and and, what would you tell somebody who's just trying to get started? Because it could feel overwhelming of like, where do I start with this client experience journey? Because there's so many touch points. So I gave you two very loaded questions. Feel free to start wherever you'd like. But I'm very curious about the journey with Withers-Ravenell and how client experience became such a part of your culture, but also curious of what advice you would give to somebody who's starting out.

Eddie

[18:13]Yeah. So, you know, again, we started our program literally almost 10 years ago and it was not a term in our industry. I mean, again, we are technical people, we're engineers and surveyors and we're about data and et cetera. And certainly I feel like we gave a good client experience, but it wasn't structured and it wasn't measured. And one of the things we say, you can't manage what you don't measure, number one. So, you know, you can say, oh, I think the clients happy? Well, or do you think, or do you know? So that's sort of number one. The second thing is when, when I brought this up, you know, to our executive team and, and said, Hey, I'm seeing some beginnings of a trend in our industry. Do we want to be on the front end of that trend? Or do we want to be a laggard? And, and we, again, from the innovation side, we always want to be out on that front edge, right? On that leading edge of where, where our industry is going. And, you know, at that same time as well. And as we are today, you know, attracting talent is a really important thing. And, you know, one of the things I think I've noticed inside of our industry is that.

Eddie

[19:17]The, the, the people that are, that are graduating and, and wanting to enter, enter this industry. And I think you hear it very plainly in Kristen too. They want to make a difference in the communities that they work in. They want to have purpose to their work. And so when you start to tie all this together, that, you know, client experience is certainly about having, you know, a happy client, but it's also about having a happy employee and really attracting talent. And then hopefully, you know, the result of that is improved revenue. So that was sort of the way I sold that, you know, hey, let's do an experiment. Let's try this.

Eddie

[19:49]And these are what we think the outcomes are going to be. And we're going to measure it. We're going to see if our, you know, if our hypothesis is correct or not. And that's where the program kind of began. And we started it small inside the company with one group.

[20:07]

Starting the Client Experience Journey

Eddie

[20:04]And then we continue to grow it and spread it out over time. The one thing that I'll say is there's no wrong place to start. There's, there is no, you know, secret sauce that I've ever found of like, you've got to start here and then do step two, step three. I think it's an, it's an individual journey for every company. And it's going to, it's going to take, as Kristen said, a lot of socialization, you're a lot of communication back because it does feel initially, it can feel like, well, these are just words that don't mean anything. You do have to be able to put it into practice eventually. And, uh, you know, Kristen can lean into some of the programs or some of the technical things that we do to, to really lived this out. But in my opinion, if you don't get that, that top level support from the CEO, you know, all the way down, you got to start there. You got to have that top level support. And again, we're, we're blessed with Jim Canfield, CEO of the company that he fully embraced this. And, and again, every, every day he talks about client experience, employee experience and revenue experience for our company.

Jerry

[21:07]Kristen, you've been with the company just a couple of years. And correct me if I'm wrong, but this effort around client experiences predates your joining the firm. And as Eddie said at the beginning, it's a lot of it's about the employee experience first in order to get to that ideal client experience. So I'm, I'm interested in kind of a little bit more of your journey and what attracted you to the firm. How did that, how did that employee experience really drive that talent acquisitions if to use a term that we like to use in the business?

Kristen

[21:41]Yeah, definitely. It's, it's funny too, because, you know, coming from municipal parks and recreation over to Withers-Ravennell.

Kristen

[21:52]They don't connect that much. I knew coming into this, I didn't have an engineering background. I didn't have an architecture background. So of course I felt a little bit out of place, but Wither's Ravenel also made me feel so welcome. And just knowing that like I could hop into the seat and learn as much as I wanted to learn. And if I wanted to eventually go another route within the company because maybe I found out that I was more attracted towards kind of that route. They were more than happy to support me in that role too. And that's just something that I loved about Withers Ravenel. And then of course, the fact that it was an ESOP was something that attracted me to joining Withers Ravenel as well. As I mentioned, everyone is in it to see us succeed. And you don't really get that coming from municipal government. So that was really a selling point for me because I'm a high performer. I love to make sure communities are doing the best they can. And I knew that Withers-Ravennell had their toes in lots of communities and watching them grow. So just the fact that it seemed like Withers-Ravennell really They took care of their employees.

[23:15]

Attracting Talent through Culture

Kristen

[23:12]And now that I've been here for two years, I can say for certain they do. And it's just something that I've really, really enjoyed about Withers-Ravenau.

Eddie

[23:20]Yeah. And maybe one thing to kind of expand on that a little bit. I mean, I think this is the perfect case study on this is, again, talent acquisition in our space right now, AEC space. You know, Jill, I'm sure you guys experience it as well, you know, just trying to really attract great talent. But there's great talent that is outside of our industry that has skill sets that are valuable to our industry. Right. And so, you know, trying to, as we jokingly call it, the unicorn, trying to find the unicorn, the technical engineer that also has great client, you know, client interaction skills and the ability to present in front of counsel.

Eddie

[23:58]Finding that one unicorn is really difficult. But if we can segment parts of our business to say, hey, I've got a client experience manager that's really going to lean in and truly manage that client relationship, not project manage, but relationship manage with that client. That can take a lot of burden, you know, a lot of things off of that technical project manager that really just wants to put his head down and do design work. And so when we can start to build these teams of individuals that can take on different responsibilities with client management and project management, it opens up a whole new talent pool for us to attract great people like Kristen. And, you know, many of our CXMs, our client experience managers, our past county managers or city managers, they've lived and been in the space that our clients have been in and they understand what their challenges are. So that empathy is really high. And again, that's a whole nother group of people that we can attract to our company that can provide great value to us, great value to our clients. And otherwise, if it was just, well, everybody has to be an engineer to work here, that really limits our talent pool quite a bit.

Jill

[25:04]Yeah, that's so true, too. I hear you on the finding that unicorn, even on the architecture side. We like to call it the missing middle. It's very tough to do. So good to hear everything that the two of you are doing, especially translating employee into client experience. That's awesome.

Jerry

[25:23]And when you talk about you, you have the 26 principles and, and all these, these elements that create this framework for how you do client experience. And I think maybe some folks listening may be thinking, well, I don't, I don't know that that much framework it, is it stifling? And it sounds like, Kristen, when you came, that you were attracted to the fact that there was some systems in place that helped measure and give you guidelines. But I'm wondering, Eddie, as you started down this path, did you get resistance internally that were making it too stiff and too rigid?

Eddie

[26:05]Uh, you know, there was definitely pushback at the beginning, you know, when, when you go tell someone, Hey, we're going to listen to the client and see what their feedback is. The natural fear is that I'm going to be in trouble, right? The client's going to say something negative and I'm going to get caught on the carpet for it. And, you know, the first thing we had to reinforce is all feedback is good feedback. You know, if we don't, if we don't know, that doesn't mean that it's not happening. Right. So I can only adjust it and fix it. If we, if, if we know where the client is. And so there was a lot of messaging around that. One of the great things, fortunate for us, is when we did our first initial client feedback, our net promoter score was like a 92 across all of our clients, which is outstanding. I mean, right now, our current rolling net promoter score for like the last, what, six to nine months, Kristen has been like 89, 91, 92. in that mid to upper eighties, which, you know, is something that is extremely important and valuable to us. So I think as the data started to come in, some of that fear and that resistance, of, you know, this, this program might get me in trouble, or I might learn something about myself that I didn't want to know necessarily, or, you know, there's going to be all these new rules or et cetera.

Eddie

[27:21]That really quickly went away.

[27:28]

Overcoming Internal Resistance

Eddie

[27:24]And, and, and people, again, now it becomes a point of celebration. You know, there's not, we send out a lot of surveys on, on Wednesdays and there is nothing more satisfying to me to see these feedback come back in and the client saying, I just had the best week working with your project manager, or I just had the best outcome. And then for me to be able to share that with our project manager saying, you know, that thing you did last week, look at the impact it had with your client. You can go home and be like proud of the work that you did to.

Eddie

[27:55]And again, that, that, that quickly over, if you're having that kind of experience that quickly overcomes that fear or that, that concern of this is too rigid or whatever. It's really not a rigid program. It truly is a mindset, a mindset around those 26 fundamentals. And people live that out a little bit different. There are certainly different ways to live that client experience out. But at the core of it is what does the client need? What is it the client's going to need? and, and, uh, that is not a one size fit all either. And, and ultimately from the revenue experience side, if you have that client that really values that white glove, bespoke service, they're willing to pay for that, that, you know, that is an experience that they're willing to pay for. And we need to recognize that because it does take extra effort and it takes the right kind of mindset to, to be able to deliver it. If the client maybe doesn't value that as much, it's more about speed or whatever. Let's lean into that space and let's get them paired up with the right person that really has that mindset that aligns with what that client's needs are. So there's a lot of dynamics in here. I know this is a short amount of time that we can go through, but it is really about understanding how your business works, how your clients work, and how can you get them as close together and as aligned as possible.

Jerry

[29:11]Yeah, I love that. I especially love the fact that the 26 principles to me is we think about values as something that requires the definition of behaviors. And that's effectively what you're doing with those 26 principles. You know, you can have values hanging on the wall and they can mean different things to different people. So within any given firm, really defining the behaviors that drives that firm's belief in that value, I think it makes it more tangible for the employee. It also holds the firm's feet to the fire a bit. I mean, we sometimes see firms with values that it feels like they got out of a book, right? They read Patrick Lencioni or somebody, and now they have five values hanging on the wall because they think that those are the right things. And they're, you know, they're not bad things, but they haven't really thought about what does that mean at this firm. So I really appreciate that you've gone to that effort.

Eddie

[30:11]Yeah, yeah, I think you nailed it. You know, these are not just words on a wall, right? You know, it is something that we truly lean into and live by. And to your point on accountability, whenever we onboard a new client, they actually get a nice little Withers-Ravenel branded box. And it's like, you know, we're, you know, welcome to a great experience is what the box says. And when they open it up, there's some nice little, you know, Withers-Ravenel mugs or things, just some things like that. But in there, it's that 26 fundamental book. It's a little flip book. And it's great when I walk into a client's office and they've got it sitting on their desk. Yeah, exactly. Thank you, Kristen. You know, that's sitting on their desk. And what I've seen is a lot of our clients actually, you know, start to live out our own fundamentals inside their own organization, socializing it as well. So again, you know, the experience that we're creating for our employees actually see that spread to our clients sometimes. And that's really satisfying. But one of the great things to your point, you know, if something happens, that client can flip in that book and go, hey, you did not live up to this one fundamental in my last conversation with you. And they'll call you out. And I appreciate that. Again, not knowing does not mean that it's not something that, you know, that doesn't exist.

Eddie

[31:26]And maybe, you know, Kristen, you know, one of the things that we,

[31:32]

Turning Feedback into Action

Eddie

[31:29]one of the programs that we've got in place is what we call our passive to promoters. So again, when you do get, because you are going to get some feedback sometimes that maybe is going to require an adjustment. So maybe Kristen, talk about that program a little bit and how you lead that piece.

Kristen

[31:44]Yeah, definitely. Our client feedback tool surveys that come in, you know, there's a range of scores and sometimes we get some passive scores back. Sometimes we get some lower scores back. But the great thing about that is that we're getting the feedback from the client before the end of the project in most cases as well. And even if we are getting passive or lower score on the client feedback tool survey that we've sent out, it's giving us an opportunity to fix what may be the issue or really dig into something that the client... And it could be very small, but just dig into something that would maybe improve that client experience for that client. So working with either CX team members or just having a quick sit down with the internal stakeholders here in Withers-Ravenell and kind of just talking about how you can adjust little things to improve that client. And the great thing is, is that hopefully the client has already told us what we can do to improve. Or it could be as simple as they need their invoice on for a certain date or they like to see their invoice break broken down like this because it makes it just that much easier for them we're willing to do it so right if we can move a passive client by just adjusting an invoice or making sure that we send an invoice on a certain date and then the next time we send them a survey.

Kristen

[33:06]They're then coming back and saying, you guys, this is great. I want to promote you guys to other clients. I mean, that right there is what we're shooting for. So...

Eddie

[33:20]Yeah. And I think it's human nature. You know, people want to be heard. Right. And when when somebody says, hey, there's a small thing you could do that could really make my life better. And then you actually listen and go do it. That is the cornerstone of building relationship and trust. And so it's amazing as well when we do when we do some of the feedback surveys. I mean, they're coming out at specific delivery points in the project multiple times through the projects. We're constantly kind of tracking that customer sentiment and, and it's amazing. Somebody that I may have just had a conversation with a day earlier, nothing came up, no issues. You ask, it was every, is everything good? Everything's great. Everything's great. Then you get this feedback and it's like, well, there was this one thing, right? And it's, it's, it's, I think it's sort of the, the, the culture that we're in now. They're, they're maybe a Southern nice. I don't know, but you know, I don't want to say that to you because that could be hurtful, but I'll put it in words and send you a feedback, right? Because you specifically asked me. And so, again, I think finding different ways to engage and probe and be curious with the client is really, really important.

[34:32]

Proactive Client Engagement

Eddie

[34:29]The insights you can get from that are extremely valuable. I will say they're only valuable if you take action. Please, the number one cardinal rule is never ask for feedback that you don't plan to follow up on.

Kristen

[34:42]So, right.

Eddie

[34:43]Somebody wants to fill out a survey or answer questions with the hopes of getting some kind of, of, of change to happen. And then it just goes into some black hole that never, that never has an answer back out. That, that is probably the number one thing I would say is if you're going to do a client experience program, be ready to follow up on what your brand promise is.

Kristen

[35:06]I would say too that clients who maybe haven't worked with us as much in the past are just astonished sometimes that we read the feedback that they provided and us simply just addressing the feedback saying, well, thanks for mentioning this, or I saw that you put this and now we can do X, Y, Z. I think a lot of times clients are just shocked that, wow, they took the time to read the feedback or survey that they asked them to take. I haven't gotten that before. So that's also something that's really exciting.

Jill

[35:37]Do you find it challenging for customers to fill out the, or for your clients to fill out those surveys, or are they pretty open and responsive to your surveys?

Eddie

[35:45]So our response rate is well over 50%. And we explain to the client, you know, as we begin to engage with the client, we say, hey, this is a program we have in place and you're going to see these kinds of feedback. And it's, this is really about them, right? It is about you telling us how we can show up best for you. And so, you know, when you, when you explain the program to the clients, they, the response rates are high. The questions themselves are very directed. It's not like, are we doing a great job? Do you like working with us? You know, it's not that kind of question, right? It's, it is on your pump station design project. Do you feel that, that the 30% design drawings met your expectations? Did you feel like you were, you had the right amount of communication. And they have a little slider. It's sitting on like a four, which means met expectation, and they can slide it as high as a seven or as low as a one.

Eddie

[36:39]And I jokingly say, I love it when somebody like gives us a 3.9 because they had to like really work to move it on 0.1. It's a lot. It snaps to like a three, you know, or three, and it's sort of like, well, it's good, but there was just a thing, right? One small thing. And they might, they, and then they have the ability to type that in. And more times than not, people will say, you know, give you a 3.9 or give you a 4.1 and they'll tell you why they did it. It is amazing when you, when you tell people this is here to help you because it truly is, they will, they will take the effort to come to let you know what they want and, and how they want it. And, and we, we certainly want to lean in. That's where we see the greatest value. Again, I love it when it's a 3.9 and Kristen or somebody from our team can say, how do I get you to a five?

Eddie

[37:27]Tell me this is what you'd like to change. Let's work on it together. Let's create a 30 day plan of how we're going to, you know, maybe adjust what we're doing today and, and let's measure results again, 30 days, see if you've seen an improvement. And, and when we do that with a client, the, the engagement level just goes up. And, and again, from a technical standpoint, the S the faster I can know that there's something that's not meeting that client's expectations. Then I can adjust and adapt and, and prevent a ton of work that may not be of any value to that client or prevent a ton of rework or where we've gone way down the road. Now I've got to back all the way back and start over again. And again, and Jill and the architecture side, you know, I mean, again, you guys are all about creating, you know, space experience, right? The, the, the vertical world, uh, you know, what does that office need to feel like? What does that environment need to look like. And the more you can be curious and dive into that and truly understand what the client needs as early as possible, it's just going to put you on a pathway to success.

[38:33]

The Role of AI in Client Expectations

Eddie

[38:30]And ultimately that client success is our success. And so, you know, we're heavily invested in that.

Kristen

[38:36]I'll say, too, and just add on to the response rate, Jill, that there's a lot of processes on the back end, too, because it's definitely something we needed to instill in employee owners here in Wither's Ravenel, that you're not just going to send a survey for the sake of sending a survey. Once again, this is not just a box that we need to check. You need to make sure you're at a good milestone. You need to let the client know that a survey is headed to their inbox so they don't think it's spam. You need to set up reminders. Make sure the client isn't on vacation. Make sure that you're not going on vacation. So there's lots of things that we're doing on the back end too, to make sure that we keep that response rate at 50% or higher.

Jerry

[39:14]That's really cool.

Jill

[39:16]So now I have to know, you guys both have probably been in the situation where you've got that one client that always wants to hit that 3.9 or whatever that number is, right? And you're like, how do I get them there? How do I get them there? What success stories do you have? Or is there one that stands out where you're like, oh, this client, every time they filled up the survey and every time we talked to him we thought we had him and then we'd get back a 3.9 or 3.8 like, Can you share with us just like any of those stories that stand out? And you can leave the client confidential.

Kristen

[39:45]Of course. Yeah, I mean, we have this procedure here at Withers-Ravenal and we're the response team. So when we receive a lower than usual score on a client feedback tool survey that comes back to us, we have a team that gets involved.

Kristen

[40:02]We set up internal meetings. We talk about maybe why we got that lower score from the client. How's the project going? we then have a one-on-one meeting with the client and that's usually me and the client we sit down we talk through kind of about that survey it's also an opportunity for the client to kind of open up a little bit more knowing that maybe the pm or some of the other internal stakeholders that they've been working with aren't in that meeting so they might feel that they could open up a little bit more to me and then i don't try and solve anything in that meeting i'm clearly just there to listen. And then I take a lot of that information back to that original internal stakeholder team and we talk through it. And then we even create an action plan in hopes of improving or what maybe our next steps are going to be to try and move that client from maybe that lower score or that passive score up to being a promoter of ours.

Kristen

[40:55]And then we even share that action plan with the client and we let them read it and we let them say, hey, if you want to add anything, If there's anything to edit here, please let us know. But from then on, once they kind of agree on that action plan or we talk through that action plan with them, we are all on the same page moving forward together as a team, partner to partner through the rest of the project. And we have had several clients, probably six or seven clients that we've gone through this with that have gone from either, I call them detractors or a passive client up to promoters of ours. And we've maintained them at promoters from that point as well. So...

Kristen

[41:33]Just knowing that we are working internally together and collaborating on how to improve client experiences and then the internal team moving forward with the client working side by side and partnership together for the rest of the project is just it's it's very rewarding.

Jerry

[41:51]It's funny sometimes when you have a problem and you fix a problem proactively like that you actually create a stronger relationship and a and a bigger fan in your client than maybe the ones that were just sort of happy cruising along i it's really interesting that the the process that you're using and and having a specific tool and process and being so thoughtful about even when you're sending it out but ultimately you're kind of giving your clients permission to be the squeaky wheel sometimes.

Kristen

[42:21]Right?

Jerry

[42:21]To raise those things. Cause sometimes it's, it's a little thing. It's the burr under the saddle. You can, you can kind of let it go. It's not that, not that big of a deal. And then I imagine that there's even times where now that they have a chance to say something and you've given them permission, they can talk about things that they, they wouldn't even consider to necessarily be a negative, but while my life would actually be better if you did this or you did that. And is that even possible? And you've elevated the level of client care that you're giving to something that they would never expect from a firm.

Eddie

[43:00]Yeah, I think you nailed it. You know, again, more times than not, it's, you know, the feedback we're getting, it's not like the world is on fire. There's a big issue. You know, this is just unacceptable. It is really about preferences. It's about that little, the small things, the little things that can just make their life easier. And ultimately, you know, we deliver technical projects, you know, grading plans and design projects and et cetera. And that's, core service, right? I mean, if you don't deliver that, you're not in business, right? That's what we're here for, right? But ultimately, really what the client feels throughout that project, if they're going home and feeling anxious because they haven't been communicated with where that project is, that bleeds over into your personal life. And man, when I can make your personal life worry-free, I can make your professional life a lot more worry-free.

Eddie

[43:52]I know what's coming up on, you know, that's going to be a pressure point for them. I can go ahead and get ahead of it and get, communicate with them exactly what they need. So they're prepared for this internal meeting that just makes their day a whole lot better. And, you know, just like I said earlier with our employees, if our employees are having a great experience, that's going to translate into a great client experience. Well, if the client is having a great experience, that's probably going to translate to a better employee experience for our guys that are working with them as well. A lot better to be proactive and know that client's business and thinking, you know, being empathetic and thinking the way that client is thinking and being just one step ahead. So the client never even has to ask for this thing. We already know what it is they need and we've already provided it.

Jerry

[44:38]Yeah. So this is maybe just a slight pivot, but Eddie, your title includes the innovation side. You talked briefly about AI earlier. Um, AI is, it feels like it's what everybody's talking about is changing things. Is it changing your customers' expectations of you or is it changing or providing tools for you to do a better job of providing that level of experience?

Eddie

[45:04]So I haven't seen a massive change yet, but I do think it is coming. And, and unfortunately, I think one of the downsides of AI is I do think There may be some expectations from clients in the future of like, well, you're just going to put it in your big AI machine and the thing that used to take two weeks to do now takes two minutes and, you know, your call should be less or whatever, right? And so I do think it has the potential to flatten the industry a little bit.

Eddie

[45:32]But, you know, again, I think this is one of the reasons why, you know, I really lean into that experience side is how do you differentiate yourself from your competitor out there, right? If we all, I jokingly say this, this is not true. So please, all the engineers that may be listening to this, don't take it literally. But, you know, when you're putting a water line five feet in the ground, 10 feet off the back of curb, you know, there's not, there's, it's just kind of bread and butter work, right? So at the end of the day, from the client's perspective, they can say, well, you know, you're, you're all engineers. I mean, this is just a straightforward project. I just have to go through this process to get the design done, to get it constructed and meet all my, you know, regulatory compliance. You know, so again, what is it we're doing that says, I need this done and I've got to have it done with Withers-Ravenell. I can't just give it to another firm somewhere else. And again, I think AI, as that comes into play, having that differentiator that says, this is why I'm going to continue to go back to this firm is going to be really, really important.

Jerry

[46:36]Yeah, that's good.

[46:38]

Recommendations for Further Learning

Jerry

[46:38]Well, guys, this has been, I don't know, just a fantastic conversation. And I appreciate how open you've been. One quick thing before we kind of wrap up, the 26 principles, is that something that's on your website or something that you would be willing to share with our listeners?

Eddie

[46:55]Yeah, we'll be more glad to share that. I can send you a PDF over.

Jerry

[46:59]Perfect. Well, we'll add that to the show notes. So, Kristen, as you're thinking about the conversation that we've had, what's one thing that you hope that our listeners take away from the conversation today?

Kristen

[47:10]That's a great question i would say to just just start it doesn't matter if you start small or start big just get it going it doesn't have to be perfect your client experience just make sure that you're listening you're listening to your employees you're listening to your clients but just don't wait if you're looking to get started in it just just start and then if you need help I would say to like clearly rated used to be client savvy that's a great touch point for you if you're looking for some help with Ryan Sudam you know they're leading the industry and client experience and he could really point you in the right direction it's.

Jerry

[47:50]Awesome yeah our listeners can catch an episode with with Tim from client savvy if you go back to the intangible brand.com Eddie anything you would add to that.

Eddie

[48:01]I would just echo what, what Kristen said and, and maybe add one little piece again, don't ask for feedback that you're not going to follow up on. That's, that's number one. I've already said it one time before, but, but I think it is really important.

Eddie

[48:14]And then the other thing is understand what is that right level of service that you're willing to deliver for your company, right? Don't, you know, don't over promise and under, under deliver. So whatever your brand promise is, make sure that everybody is on board, that that is our standard of care. That is that level of service that we all expect and we're going to live up to it. If we don't do that, then we're going to have clients with expectations that we are never aligned to be able to meet. And that is never where you want to be. You always want to make sure that you're setting that right goal. And quite honestly, too, I guess the last thing would be, you can't manage what you don't measure. So keep that feedback coming in. Look at trends, look at patterns, look at insights and, and, and, and utilize that data to help you better understand who that ideal client, what that ideal client profile is for your company.

Eddie

[49:14]Understand where you can be best aligned. And that can, you know, really help you understand what your business development and marketing plan needs to be. So you're chasing the right kind of clients, right? That is a major investment when we're out there trying to find that right client, the more that we can lean into, you know, to, to the feedback that we get and understanding some of those traits that we're looking for, it's just going to make us more focused in our growth and make us more, and make us more profitable and have a better experience for everyone when we're, we're working with the right client.

Jill

[49:46]That's so true. Kristen, Eddie, I am so glad that you made time for us to educate us. Kristen, you said at the beginning that you came over to the dark side. Thank you for coming over to the dark side. Before we wrap up. Well, there's two things, Jerry. I think you've got to get Kristen or Eddie to send you their values that Kristen held up. You got to put it on that shelf behind you and add it to there. Yeah. So Carl always does a question at the end. And while I'm trying to do my best Carl impersonation, I'm failing on that. But before we wrap up, is there a book or a podcast that you'd recommend to our audience? Anything.

Eddie

[50:29]So I've actually, I've got this book here that I keep right beside me, but it's called The Customer Centricity Playbook. And uh it is it is a very it both leans into the theoretical and to the very practical like down to mathematical formula so again engineer you know technical person you got to have a chart and a bell curve and all kinds of things like that but it's for me it was it was just a really it was a really good way to i think you said this earlier just a really good way to take the abstract of this sort of abstract feel of of client experience and really break it down into a process and break it down into something that's repeatable and scalable that can be communicated to a wide array of people and that we can all align around. So that, that book was really good for me. The Customs to be Playbook.

Kristen

[51:17]I am. And I've got a podcast, Work Life with Adam Grant. It's just very smart, entertaining, and it's, it talks about how to make work not suck. So it's perfect for anyone thinking about culture, leadership, and client experience.

Jerry

[51:34]Love that.

Jill

[51:34]That's awesome. That's going on my list. I need a new one.

Jerry

[51:38]Yeah, you're the second person to mention it, so I definitely have to put it into the rotation. Thank you for that. So, you know, I'll echo Jill. Thank you so much for taking the time, sharing what you guys are doing, you know, from the beginning when I first learned about Withers Ravenel and the focus that you're putting on customer experience. I knew that we had to have you guys on, so I appreciate that. Where can our listeners find you online or learn more about your work either personally or as a firm.

Eddie

[52:05]Well, we're withersravenel.com is our webpage. You can find out a lot of information there. We have, you know, withersravenel page on all social media, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, etc. So please, yeah, look us up.

Eddie

[52:18]Yeah, certainly always looking for great people to join our team that are really client focused and want to find purpose in their work. So please look us up and, and look at some of the great projects that we get to work on again, how we actually get to help the communities that we work with, whether it's through development work or working directly with the local government, helping them solve some really challenging issues with infrastructure. Uh, that's, that's a major, that's a major focus in our, in our nation right now is a lot of aged infrastructure and, and the things that we take for granted, clean water and, and, you know, safe roads and et cetera. Those, those don't happen by, by accident. Those are very large plan projects that take a lot of investment and a lot of design and time. And, uh, so we're certainly glad to, to be able to partner with our clients to, to help them face those challenges they're facing. So please, yeah, look us up, find out more about us. And again, we, we certainly appreciate the time today. And again, tell Carl, I said, hello, I know when, when you guys started that journey, Carl and I spent a few hours on the phone, kind of picking each other's brains, what, you know, everything we've tried hasn't always worked either. Right. So, you know, you learn a lot from your failure. So always glad to be able to share our experiences with anybody in our industry, because I, again, I see this lifting our entire industry up as well. You know, both the civil and the architectural side of our business. You know, anything that we can do to lift the industry, I think, is really important moving forward.

[53:46]

Closing Thoughts on Industry Improvement

Jerry

[53:46]Yeah, that's well said. Again, thank you both for being part of our podcast, Jill. Thank you for stepping in, for Carl being out. We'll certainly have you back to guest host again and be a guest as well. So more Jill for everyone in the near future. But that does wrap up another episode of The Intangible Brand. If you found value in today's conversation, particularly as much as we did, please take a moment to follow or subscribe. On your favorite podcast platform. Your support really does help us continue to bring these kinds of discussions to all of you. And if you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to like the video and subscribe to our channel. It helps others to discover the show and to join the community. We'd love to hear your thoughts on today's episode. So feel free to leave a review or share your feedback or questions with us. You can reach us at hello at theintangiblebrand.com. Tell us what you liked or what you'd like to hear next. You can connect with us also on LinkedIn or visit our website at theintangiblebrand.com for more resources, including the 26 principles that Eddie and Kristen shared with us today. So thanks for joining us on The Intangible Brand. Remember, the strongest brands are built on the experiences they create, both for their clients and their teams.