Episode 21 - Nancy Sylvester, Why We Search for Our Path

This week’s guest is Nancy Sylvester. Nancy is an employment attorney, legal advisor, and community advocate with over a decade of experience helping organizations build ethical, inclusive, and high-performing workplaces. Beyond her legal practice, Nancy serves as pro bono counsel for the We Believe Foundation and co-leads the Sexual Harassment & Gender-Based Discrimination initiative for A Bolder Way Forward, advancing opportunities for women throughout Utah. Whether advising leaders, shaping policy, or serving her community, Nancy is passionate about creating lasting change through empathy, collaboration, and purpose.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to Wake in the Wide, a podcast about uncovering the purpose behind life's crucible moments. Each episode, you'll hear from real people who turn their struggles into strength and their stories into light. If you're searching for me, walking through something hard, or just love stories that stir the soul, you're in the right place. Hello, friends, and welcome to Waking the White, where we discover the purpose behind life's crucible moments. My name is Stacy Peterson, and our guest today is Nancy Sylvester. Nancy, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you, Stacy, for having me. Yeah, I've been looking forward to this conversation to hear more and learn more about your story and what you do and who you are. So let's start there.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Oh gosh, how do I even begin? Um, well, professionally, I'm an employment attorney, so I work for one of the large national firms downtown called Ogletree Deacons, and I've been here for about a year. Um, in terms of who I am, that is a very loaded question. There's so much going on there, but um I I'll start with kind of my origin. I'm an identical twin. And so she's awesome, and I was not awesome growing up. So it created some competition and some drive because she was a high-level athlete and I was a choir nerd. And so people would always ask us, because they couldn't tell who was who, except when she was running, um, you know, are you the runner?

SPEAKER_03 1:27

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

And I I would say, no, I don't who I don't have a label. And so I so I didn't ever know how to respond to that. And so, um, but I think that was one of those things like, you know, in in your teenage years, you're growing and trying to figure out who you are. And for me, um, that part of life was I I think in some ways harder than for other people just because like not only did I not have I mean, I was competing for an identity with my sister. Right. And so um I just kind of felt like I really just needed to kind of chart my own path. So that was back in California and I'm in Utah. So that that'll tell you right there that my path kind of my took a very different turn. She's still in California and has gotten married and had kids and has a business with her husband, and and she's great. Like I I love her and she's you know my best friend, and we still call, we've got inside jokes and stuff, but um my life took a very different turn because um I just didn't want to be in somebody else's shadow. And I wanted to just and have my own purpose and and do my own thing, and that came with a lot of trials. But I moved myself to Los Angeles right after I graduated college um and had a mattress on a floor and found a job down there and um was there for about five years and went to law school there. And um So that's what took you to LA was law school. Took me to LA. I met my husband there um right before I made my decision to go to law school. So um it was really one of those like your brain is just not developed and really dumb. Like I had decisions to make and I just met him and I went, I kind of like where this is going. I guess I'll just stay put, you know, and it wasn't like that really wasn't thought through. It was just kind of like this seems this seems okay, maybe I you know, like who says that when you've dated somebody for like two weeks? But I so I did, and thankfully it worked out. We were engaged like three months later. So, um, but and then I had a baby, our our first uh the end of my second year of law school. So yeah. Wow, I have so many questions regard. So much, yeah, there's so much kind of baked into there, but I you know that those I for whatever reason that drive led to some very lonely decisions and situations where I was just by myself and going, why are you what is wrong with you? Why why did you do this? Why did you feel like you just had to kind of like go do you do your own thing and not have family and friends support around you? And and yet I just felt really strongly about it, and yeah, it's definitely shaped a lot of who I am. Yeah, for sure. So why law school? Oh, I always wanted to be a lawyer. Really? Starting in about fifth grade. Yeah, my my dad was uh the uh small town lawyer, and I just thought it was really cool what he was doing, and I always pictured myself with a briefcase and kind of practicing law with him, and I and ultimately that wasn't my path. I I we tried to explore that, and I just don't think my dad had it in him to um at the end of his career to train me up to be a lawyer. Um and I think he was just tired. There was just like when I graduated from law school, that was when the Great Recession was going on, and and there was just a lot of just turmoil in the economy and um just some weird things going on with his clients. And I think in some ways he was trying to protect me by not bringing me on, but it left me with a weird place of kind of well, now what? This was kind of my plan, right? You know, and and so I had to again figure things out. So where did that lead you? Um, well, it led us to Utah, kind of funny, because I think we my husband and I we had some real trials that happened around that time. He tried to start a business. I was trying to figure this out with my dad's law practice, and and we had moved from Los Angeles with our little two-year-old up to the central coast of California, and um not a lot of jobs there, and so you really have to be an entrepreneur to make it, and we just our our profit margin like we had no money and and a lot of um motivation and not a lot of guidance, and so really we're kind of on this collision course for failing big time. Um, and so um my husband's uncle was getting married, and and my husband Chris said, Well, what about Utah? We could just move there. He's moving out of his house and the economy's stronger there, and and I it was a shock to my system, but you know, again, I'm make sometimes dumb decisions, right? And so I'm like, okay, fine, let's move. And yeah, that was really, really hard because we moved here to Utah where we knew almost nobody and had to adjust to a whole new culture as well. Yeah, so say have you ever been to Utah before that point? I we'd been once, so and um, yeah, definitely very, very different. And um I was not a member of the church, and so I just it was just it was so different, you know. But I also immediately recognized just that people were really nice, and so I thought, well, it's kind of like a big state of just like small town people, you know. That was my first impression of Utah, and um it wasn't long after we got there, like we landed. Um, Chris got a job within like three weeks of us getting here and um at a a Subaru dealership and um quickly started excelling there. I um I was in this weird spot where I had um pass I had graduated from law school in California. I had taken the California bar exam, and then you know, I think it was about probably three weeks after we moved to Utah, maybe a little bit longer, I found out I passed the California bar exam. That does you nothing in Utah.

SPEAKER_03 7:14

Right, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:14

So and it's and I had no connections to the community, you know, to the legal community. And so um it's so it kind of left me like, well, now what? You know, I'm here. Um, but my parents had felt um they for a long time I knew that they'd been involved with um the women's shelter in my hometown. They had supported it and volunteered and and you know, financially supported it. And so I thought, well, maybe I'll just volunteer, you know, and and at the women's shelter and kind of see what happens. And so I I literally walked through the door of the women's shelter um up in Weber County and and I said, I need something to do. I'm really bored. I just graduated law school. Is there anything you need help with? And they had me. I bet they were like, yeah, I know, yeah. I I think they said, Well, yes, can you come back tomorrow? And I said, Yes. And so um I came back and I started just doing some grant work for them and grant writing, and that lasted about three weeks until they all of a sudden they needed a domestic violence victim advocate. And um, so they hired me on for that, and I did that for about a year and talk about hard work. Oh my gosh, it's I I am grateful for that experience. I will forever be grateful. It's why, you know, you know me, I have tons of interests, and that is in part, I will always believe strongly in women empowerment and um supporting families because I have seen families at their worst. Um, I've seen how drugs and alcohol can really tear down families and just kind of yeah, it's it's I've I've seen a lot. And it's um, but I the one of the reasons why I wanted to do that work too was because I knew it would cause me to be in court. And so I appeared in court, you know, a few times a week just you know, being there for the victims. So and I got to know some of the court system and some of the players, and in fact, some people that I met at that time who worked with Utah Legal Services, I still know them. I consider them friends. Like, and that was gosh, how many years ago? Um, when did we get here? 2011. So that was like 15 years ago, and and I still fondly go, I we knew each other right when I moved here, like beginning my career. So, but yeah, but that's really kind of where I started to gain an interest in like, you know, women need help. And and especially what's interesting is that um, and this has been true, I've seen this in my work with a Boulder Way Forward, that um sometimes, you know, when you've got kind of a a a religion that is very prominent in a place, that also can lead to some really interesting issues. Um, especially, you know, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is very family focused, but then sometimes I think we lose sight of the fact that not every family is perfect. Right. And there can be a lot of hardship that happens in families and you start adding anything like drugs and alcohol or poor choices, it can really even poverty, yeah, you know, or intergenerational domestic violence can can mean people just don't have a good shake and it's it's hard, especially young kids. But I st I just still will treasure that time, even though it was extremely hard. I will always treasure that time that I had serving. So and that um ultimately led actually to me um after about a year, I um got a job working and I'd taken and passed the Utah State Bar in the meantime. Okay, so it was that was a really how how do I put this? Um I was working about 80 hours a week that summer because um we'd lost staff at the shelter and I had to still um you know study for this exam. And I'm not I hadn't gone to school in Utah and thankfully I'd already passed the California bar exam, so I kind of knew how to study. Um, but I don't know by the skin of my teeth I passed, but I I'll never forget this prosecutor who's I went to the prosecutor's office regularly to help him screen charges with you know with domestic violence and and I said, I just can't do this, I'm so exhausted, I'm on call all the time. And and he said, Nancy, what do you have to lose? He's like, just go take it. You've already passed one, and I'll never forget that. Um it was uh oh, I can't remember his last name, hell come to me. But he was one of the prosecutors in Ogden City, and he then ended up going on to become a judge. And I I remember once I passed the the Utah bar, I got my little paper and I literally took a photocopy of it in their office and I just stuck it to the wall with a pin and I said, Thank you. Like that, you helped me. Like there's no I wouldn't have done this without your encouragement because I didn't think I could do it. And um, but after that, you know, I went into work. I'm like, I passed the Utah Bar, and they went, Great. Oh, because like that meant I could practice law here in Utah now. So um, but I didn't write away because we were still the economy was still weird, still didn't know that many people, and so um I but I knew I needed to do something different. The working at the domestic violence shelter was too hard, and I just needed to kind of move on and with my career. And so um the Supreme Court was hiring our Utah Supreme Court, and so but they weren't hiring for an attorney, they were hiring for a legal secretary. Oh and I thought, what the heck? I'm just gonna throw my hat in the ring and see what happens. I never I never thought they would pick me because I'm I was overqualified. I'd pass two bar exams. Like I should have been out practicing as a lawyer, but I had contacted lawyers' offices and and they're just like, we don't really know what to do with you, you know. And and so, but um, but I got hired on at the Supreme Court and I was Chief Justice Durant's right-hand woman for about a year and a half. So, um, and that ultimately led to my, you know, actually going in practicing law. But in the meantime, I got this really weird experience going in like to an environment that I did not objectively qualify for because it's really hard to go in um as an attorney who's not like excelled in law school and coming from kind of I wouldn't say a no-name school, everybody knew my school out in California. Yeah. But I but Utah is much more insular, so it it looks at, you know, a lot of employers look at like, did you go to the two schools here or did you go to a school that's recognizable? Well, mine was a commuter school in California, it wasn't that recognizable here. So so I got in against kind of all odds and got to hang out with some of the smartest people that I've ever met, you know, and but just not just the brightest, but also just good people. And you know, it had been when we moved here, we came under such weird circumstances that I just you know, it's kind of like our ships felt just a little bit rudderless and I didn't really I I couldn't I get that grounding feeling and I missed my family and like why am I here? Like, why God? Right, why am I here? And um, but I but I figured it out pretty quickly because um we started having a lot of like just talks, you know. The nice thing about the Supreme Court is that it's a very academic environment and all the clerks were around my age, they'd all just graduated law school, and um, and so when there was some downtime, we would just sit there and jibber jabber. And um I was kind of the clerk of court and I Andrea Martinez, she was just she's a treasurer, she's still one of my very favorite people. Um, she and I became like the little kind of like party planning, like social committee there. And so we just anyway, it was just a lot of fun. Um, but it also opened up some opportunities to just kind of talk to people. And um, in the meantime, I'd I had another baby. So I was on now baby number two. Um, I came back from maternity leave and um and I had gotten to know this last set of clerks, but then there was a new set, and they came in and like they were even more fun, and so we had even more conversations, and you know, no offense to anybody who might have seen this, who was the first crop, but the second crop was like they were so fun, and they just there was something about them, they just kind of let me just chat through like cultural differences between California and Utah and my religious experiences and that and that sort of thing. And um, and I got to ask a lot of questions just about like their faith and what they believed, and I made fun of them about the coffee thing, and like even for Christmas, I got them like these like reusable Starbucks cups, and I like marked them up and I put you know, like the strongest caffeine possible that you could get, right? Just I was and it was like a tease, and they kind of like chuckled, but were like just let her have this one, you know what I mean? And so, um, but then um one of them, Tyler Steer, he I'll never forget him because he invited me and Andrea Martinez to go to sing with the tabernacle choir. He was in the choir, and so we got to go do this um, yeah, like it was a practice with the choir, and it it's intended to be like a missionary thing, but we just thought it was cool. We could show it, we both like to sing, and um, that was life-changing. And not long after that, Tyler left to go. He was done with his clerkship, but on his last day, this was so sneaky, he like leaves a book of Mormon on my desk. And I just I took a picture and I sent it to my husband. I was like, oh no, the Mormons are gonna get us, and so but you know, and they did. Um I ended up joining the church not long after that, but I um I um I started reading the book and I was I was taking the bus every day because um we lived in North Salt Lake and there was a we were on a bus route and we had no money. Like I we were literally were sub I was supporting the family on my $18 an hour job, which was crazy. We had an infant and a little like a toddler, and my husband, God bless him, like we just looked at our finances and went, there's no way that both of us, like we're gonna be taking one of our incomes entirely and putting it into um you know, into daycare. Yeah. And he said, You just graduated from law school, we have to focus on your career. So he said, Oh, you know, I'll stay home. And I said, Are you sure? Like, that's a lot for a man. And and he said, Yeah, I'm sure. And oh man, the trials that we went through just through that, because he had no support network as a man, and it this was still, you know, like early 2000s. Like we got here in 2011, so probably 2013. It's still like Utah wasn't what it is now, like it had not grown quite to the extent. I think we added like a million people or something since we've been here, and so um it still was very kind of culturally um very conservative, and so we felt like we had to explain to a lot of people like what this thing was that we were doing, you know. But um, but he felt strongly about investing in in my career and um and so he stayed home. But um, but in and that gamble paid off. Um, but in the meantime, we you know, we we did join the church, we found our people, like our our rudder kind of started to stabilize and um really felt like okay, it looks like maybe this is why we were supposed to be here, you know, is to kind of build this and um met some amazing people like pioneer stock, which like people who are new to the church, like when you meet somebody who's got pioneer stock, you're like, whoa, you're a special kind of person. You have like wheat in your cabinets, do you know that and a grinder, right? It's probably full of weevils. I know seriously, probably weevils, but also um just I don't know, but also we needed the people to just kind of be like, we know that you have three-hour church right now, and it's hard with an infant, but like you just go, you just do it because like we didn't have you know phones and stuff to entertain our kids, and we did it, and I just looked at them like you people are really strong.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Like, I I can do this, you know, and so there is something about the belief of that pioneer stock of individuals. Totally, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Well, and I I like clearly I have some of that in me. I'm 100%. Right? I've been like willing to go, you know, to do these things all by myself and to take risks and to move and not knowing kind of where we were gonna land. And and you know, I brought up the domestic violence shelter. The reason why my my parents were so involved in that was because my grandmother was her, my dad, my mom's dad, um, he was very violent towards my grandmother and um back in the 50s when my mom was little and and would beat her up basically every day. And so in the 50s, you had to go to the court and ask for, you know, to even be released from your marriage, and you know, it was kind of unheard of, right? Like you had to go beg. And so there was no no fault divorces. And so uh this is where I feel strongly about policy, and and you can't leave people stranded in marriages, they have to have an off-ramp when there's abuse. And um, you know, for her, she had to work through a lot, and I know I have that, I know I have her in me. Yeah, um, you know, because she basically took my mom and her out of that situation and they literally packed their things one day after my grandfather went to work and they just left, you know, and so I'm like, yeah, that's I that tracks. I've got I definitely have that in me, right? So not that I've I try not to run, but I um yeah, so anyway, so the pioneer people like I definitely felt an affinity for people who had this pioneer stock and were willing to do hard things. So um, you know, but and I think that um, you know, I've I've I've always tried to like kind of um I want to say distance myself a little bit just from some of the relationships that I have that I've still kept from the Supreme Court because I've had a job that has meant that I've still kind of been around that. But um yeah, Chief Justice Chief Justice Durant has become, I mean, his family is basically like our family. And and I I remember trying to be so cautious about like you know, his example, and he's you know, they're members of the church. I I was like, I this is like you're one of the coolest people I've ever met, you know, and I you're just so awesome and I see how awesome your family is, and but he was one of the big reasons why I joined. You know, like obviously that my friend Tyler's influence played a big role because he had you know the hoot spot, right? To like give me a book. Yeah, right. But um, but it was, you know, the chief that I just looked at him, I thought, gosh, for somebody who's so smart who went to Harvard and he's had probably so many opportunities to walk away if it wasn't true. Yeah. I and he hasn't.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

Yeah. I think it's amazing um the examples that we have around us, right? And I think at times I don't think the individuals really realize um the influence that they're having. But I think it's important to surround ourselves, right? So for whatever reason. You know, you ended up at a place surrounded by him and other individuals with their influence. In the end, it's still your choice, right? Yeah, totally. So there's no doubt that some of that pioneer stock is in you too. I remember having a conversation with one of my colleagues a long time ago, Tanner Mickelson, and we were talking about um the pioneers coming across, and I was just like, I I could have never done it. Are you kidding me? I I can't, I I can't sleep in the dirt. I I just I'm not built that way. Yeah. And he looked at me and he said, Yes, you could. Yeah. I'm like, no, Tanner, I really couldn't. He's like, no, Stacy, you're doing it today.

SPEAKER_03 22:39

Right?

SPEAKER_02 22:40

They're hard. They did their hard. You're doing your hard today. And I I don't know. I've I've thought about it for a long time now, just saying, it's true. It's true. We all have hard. Yeah. Um, we all at times step into the unknown. Yeah. Others run into it, you know, find excitement into it, and others are like, ugh, yeah, just slowly going in there. But um, we kind of come out on the other side of understanding, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:07

But when we're in the middle, we don't always see it for sure. Yeah. No, there's no doubt. And we like, I mean, I've we've been through some health issues in our family, and there's been times I've just been on my knees just praying to get through it, right? And but I know, like, I I just know those early experiences of like, I'm gonna go do this on my own were prepping me for those times when I've had to go through some really hard stuff in our family. And um there there was one time in particular, it was probably about four years ago, um, that I was going through a really hard time with some some family health issues. And I um one of my friends gave me a talk, it was by I think it was um Elder Holland, and it was the one about the Liberty Jail being, you know, like a temple experience. And and I listened to that one on just repeat because I thought, gosh, if you know Joseph Smith could have a temple experience in Liberty Jail when he's literally they're trying to murder him. Like I can get through this. And I'll never forget I had a a neighbor who was um my neighbor Chrissy, she was so sweet and she's like, How can I help? And I said, I can't answer that for you. I don't know, but it will come to you how you're supposed to help. And it did like she did, like she figured out how to just help me. I had other friends around me that helped me too, and I and I just I'm like, that's really wise, Nance. Where did that come from?

SPEAKER_02 24:36

You know, I was gonna say, I'm impressed with that answer because most of the time it's like, uh Nathan, I'm fine.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

Yeah, you know, but for you to say that like I do, I know I need help. I just don't know what it is, but there was just it was like things that just I all of a sudden somebody would show up with something that just made sense in the moment, and I'm like, oh, I didn't know I needed that. I'm really grateful that you listened to that prompting, you know, and and acted on it. And it's that those experiences have made me realize how critical it is for us to act on those promptings. Like I I feel like we do get we are we're not alone and we're constantly have you know, I angels, spirit guides, whatever you want to call it, that are there. And um we just have to be in tune enough. And and as odd as it sounds, I don't I don't hate the trials anymore because like that's when I've been closest to the spirit. It's when I have not only seen the most growth, but also I I don't just had these like kind of like influxes of um revelation and peace and calm despite whatever chaotic situation that I'm in.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Yeah, it's so true. When I started um one of my my companies, there was a three-year time span. I wasn't sure I was gonna make it, and I'm not talking about the business itself. That's a true story. I wasn't sure about the business, but me. Yeah. And I had I had 10 very specific experiences that taught me critical lessons, and I I look back on that time. It seriously, one of the hardest times of my life, if not the hardest time of my life. Um, and I can look back now on it and say, I kind of miss it, which is really weird to say. It was so hard. Yeah, but I felt supported in a way. Um I don't know, the the spirit that I felt, the guidance that was given, and of course, it was in my pit of despair moments, I call them. Like I I can't handle this, I can't do it. But I think I think at times of trial, um, no matter how big or small, I think it those times draw us to our knees in a way that's different when we're not experienced in a trial. Yeah. Um and so I miss I I miss those moments, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:04

Right. And then sometimes you're like, I don't want to pray for that. Like, please don't. I'm not praying for that moment. Please don't give it back to me.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

Yeah, I don't really want that. But no, I don't want to, but there's just something about what you become through it. Yeah. That I can look back and say, I am, I am so grateful for that hard. Yeah. I I don't really want to do it again. Yeah, right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Um, but but we've learned from all of it. Yeah. No, and I agree. I think that um, you know, you you've you've asked me about kind of all of my interests, I guess. I and and they've all been born out of those experiences of just whatever hard it was. So for example, I'm very interested in like the state of our democracy and and especially I really fight for judicial independence because um after I worked for Chief Justice Durant, um, I moved on to the general counsel's office and was there for about seven years in the state court. And in that time, I really grew an appreciation for just how special that branch of government is, and that it truly does have to be a political. Like I never, I would have never had a voice. I wouldn't, I didn't have a LinkedIn profile. I had nothing because I was so scared to say anything that could reflect badly upon the courts. And it's not badly as in like I'm misrepresenting what the courts are about. It was more I didn't want to give anybody the impression that they weren't gonna get a fair shake. You know, and and that was it was an ethical standard that all of us tried to keep. So even for example, oh gosh, we lived on a busy street in North Salt Lake, and one time a political candidate, you know, I'm sure he was a very nice guy, but he came, you know, he plunked a giant sign on our fence. And um, and I came home and I looked at Chris, I said, What's that? And he said, Well, it's a sign. Apparently, you've agreed to this. And I said, There's no way I would have agreed to that because of my ethical obligations. And so I called up the guy and I said, I'm sure that sign costs you a lot. There is no way that I can have that up because of my ethical obligations. And he ran over. I was probably maybe a little snarky, like, if you don't want me to throw it away, like come and get it. Yeah, so I'm sure it was expensive. So, um, but but I but that it was for a reason. It was because we don't want politics injected into the courts, and I think right now, especially, there's we're in this really weird, dangerous time where that's happening too much. And I I worked at the courts when we really had this gold standard process for getting judges on the bench and you know, the process of evaluating them and then their retentions, and and now it just feels like there's so much vitriol that's being injected unfairly into it. Now, granted, like the courts have been asked to weigh in on some really hard things, but um, but I, you know, I'm a I'm a true believer in judicial independence and being able to maintain that. Um, you know, there was, I mean, every time that I I appeared a few times before, you know, the Supreme Court after I I left working for their when I was in the general counsel's office, it was kind of this weird thing where I would represent judges or court staff and have to bring up cases to the Supreme Court. And um, without fail, every single time Chief Justice Durham would just recuse because like you you don't want to give any impression whatsoever, even if he could um, you know, look at this case um and and not involve, you know, whatever personal feelings he had about me or my family, right? Um, he could separate those. He always was so cautious because even just the appearance of anything. Right. Um, and you know, I understood that very, very well. And and um what was hard about that situation is because I I couldn't become really good friends with every one of them because I thought, well, if I bring a case before the court and every single judge has to recuse, right, that could be a problem, right? So we always kind of had to maintain that healthy distance and balance despite all the work that I was doing within the courts. So, but but I feel like what it I I will say to people, I was born and raised in the Supreme Court because um it it instilled in me this passion for it matters so much. A healthy democracy depends upon an independent judiciary. And so that's where, you know, if you looked on my link, if you look on my LinkedIn, I defend the courts a lot. I come out a lot on, you know, about not saying things, you know, not imposing political requirements on the courts and and really trying to maintain that balance. So, um, you know, so that's where one of my interests lies. But I also feel like there's a faith-based part to it. Our you know, our prophet has come out and said, you know, we have to to have a healthy democracy, not only do we have to have healthy debate, but we can't have so much distrust in our branches of government. And if we are constantly lobbying accusations, you know, across the aisle, like we're not going to be having a healthy democracy, right? Yeah, and and the rule of law matters. And the rule of law is necessarily it's connected to high ethical standards, you know, which is part of a faith-based experience as well. So to me, it all works together, and that's part of the it's a big reason why I I will open my mouth and I will say something when it's appropriate, because I realize like I have an experience and a perspective that not everybody has.

SPEAKER_02 32:17

I don't. I'm sitting here thinking, okay, so what do I do? Yeah, but you know, what do I do in in this kind of a circumstance in this environment that we're in?

SPEAKER_01 32:27

I I I I think that in in this environment, I mean, I I think we start with the basics, which is that we'd be willing to have conversations um that with other people who don't share our viewpoints. Because I I feel strongly that um our tech companies are very complicit in the tribalism that has developed around these issues, and it's it's being exploited by those who seek to gain the most from it. But I and I can't lay the blame squarely at the feet of just the the tech companies, but they've created the platforms that have enabled this kind of evil and vitriol to flourish. And I think the more that we can push back on that and just you know remind people, hey, if you're in like an online forum or something, and and Mormon Women for ethical government is very good at at this and training people on it. Um you you have to be able to say, no, we're not gonna act like this. I understand that you on the other side of the conversation are not just a one-dimensional person with a keyboard. You are a three-dimensional person, well, a four, you know, taking into account their spirit, and you deserve respect just as I deserve it. You know, and so I think that that that's one of the ways that we push back, you know, is using our faith background, but also like a healthy understanding of our this democratic experience, it will fail if we decide that we're everybody is the enemy, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:56

Yeah, it's so hard because not being a part of your environment and all the knowledge that you have. So here I am, this this person, and reading everything that comes across, whether it's from the media, social media, other individuals, it's just like, I don't believe anything. I mean, I have my own faith beliefs, right? But what these articles that come my way, I'm like, I don't even know. Which almost leads at times for me to just say, okay, never mind. I'm just gonna tune it out. I I'm just I'm not gonna pay attention.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

That's how we ended up here, by the way. Right. Yeah, no, that's like honestly, I I really feel like um the thinkers kind of sat down, you know, and and all is well in Zion sort of thing. And then um, the carpet here. Yeah, well, and my my understanding too is that um there there was a point, you know, it was really when social media kind of started to become big, is that um people who were a lot all of a sudden kind of felt empowered because they had this voice, right, online um started showing up more to, you know, the political things that previously had been kind of boring, right? You know, it's kind of more of like a what does the community need, you know, and but now um it's almost kind of like a life for death competition, who's right, you know, whereas it's not you know, and my and and I I'm affiliated with a political party here is largely represented. But I it's we're all trying to get at the same issues, yeah. You know, like we want good healthy families, we want good healthy workplaces, we want people to thrive, we want businesses to thrive, we want there to be opportunities, we want people to have housing and food and stability and all of those things, right? Yeah, like the things that make the world and humanity tick. And um the parties are just looking at it in different ways. Right, right. And so neither, in my mind, neither of them is totally wrong. But that's why we have to work together because there's some that's the sausage making of policy, and I've worked in policy, is you know, like you can't just plant down your flag and say, I'm not moving from this spot, right? Because you're not gonna get everything you want. And I I mediate in my practice, and that's kind of how we go into it is like I have my like must-haves, but I also know that I'm gonna have to kind of like lift my flag a little bit and be willing to move because if I want to resolve this and I want peace, it's not this is not gonna end well if I stay firmly planted, right?

SPEAKER_02 36:24

Makes sense. Well, this has been amazing. I have one last question for you. Um, you know, you you've referenced and and have you know shared some of the just trials, hard times of life, right? Um, leaving your family, coming to a totally new state environment, just completely different. Um, it those things are hard, right? Whether we choose them or not, our our trials, our life's experiences can be hard. And when we're in the middle of that, um sometimes it's hard to see a way out. Yeah. It's sometimes it's hard to make sense of what we're experiencing. Um, when we get through it, we can look back and say, oh, that makes sense. Yeah. But in the middle, sometimes it doesn't. Yeah. So what advice would you give to our audience who may be in the middle of their heart?

SPEAKER_01 37:15

I think that goes back to, you know, what we were talking about previously with um look for the temple experience in, you know, the Liberty jail because uh it's and and I've had to have this conversation with my teenage daughter recently of, you know, when the boys that she's interested or whatever, it doesn't go well. I I say, you know, your experience is that it always gets better. And so look towards that, that it's gonna get better, but in the meantime, find those tempo moments, find those moments like where you get the tender mercies. You'll find them because when we're in the heart, our senses get so heightened that we I feel like we have this kind of extra sensory ability to kind of tune into other forces that are trying to help us, but we have to really key into that and not and not ignore it or not think it's a possibility. Because that's been my experience is that it is a possibility and we have to position ourselves, you know, people to be open to those possibilities and to feel them.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

Oh, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 38:17

Thanks for having me, Stacey. Oh, you're welcome. My friends, you heard it from Nancy. Um, life's not easy, right? But as we're going through our heart, if we look for our temple experiences, those moments where we felt peace, we found joy even in the heart, it gives us hope to keep moving forward. So let's do that together. Thank you, everyone. Thank you for joining me on Waking the Why. If today's story moved you, share it with someone who needs it. And don't forget, your why is worth waking up for.