aiEDU Studios
aiEDU Studios is a podcast from the team at The AI Education Project.
Each week, a new guest joins us for a deep-dive discussion about the ever-changing world of AI, technology, K-12 education, and other topics that will impact the next generation of the American workforce and social fabric.
Learn more about aiEDU at https://www.aiEDU.org
aiEDU Studios
John Marble: Embracing neurodivergence in the workplace
What if the very traits that society labels as a "disability" are actually your greatest strengths?
In this week's episode of aiEDU Studios, John Marble (author of Neurodiversity for Dummies and Autism for Dummies) takes us on a remarkable journey from his early days making White House beer runs to becoming a respected neurodiversity advocate and thought leader.
John's story begins unexpectedly when, as a community college student, he volunteered during Al Gore's debate prep, which led to a White House internship and eventually a career in politics and innovation. But the most powerful moment came when he finally disclosed his autism to a senior colleague, who responded not with accommodation strategies but with a profound question: "Have you ever thought that your autism has helped you in your career?"
Our conversation explored the everyday challenges that neurodivergent individuals face (from deciphering unwritten social rules to navigating workplace communication) while highlighting how different cultures accommodate neurodiversity in surprising ways. John explains how some countries' communication styles naturally align with autistic thinking patterns, making him feel instantly more at ease in places like Finland or Germany compared to the U.S.
Of course, we also talked about AI and how AI tools have become invaluable thinking partners for neurodivergent individuals. John shared how large language models (LLMs) helped him write his books by serving as sounding boards and empathy enhancers, allowing him to better understand and address diverse audience needs. Yet, he also emphasizes a critical point that technology developers consistently miss – the importance of involving neurodivergent people in designing the very tools meant to support them.
Learn more about John Marble and his Pivot Neurodiversity organization:
aiEDU: The AI Education Project
All right, we're live with AIEDU Studios here in San Francisco. I'm Alex Katran, I'm the CEO of the AI Education Project and I'm here with a very good friend, one of my oldest friends from my time in Washington, john Marble. John, thank you so much for being here.
John Marble:Thanks for having me, thanks for the kind introduction. You know me well. Enough Could be much worse.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):You know. Normally I would say, oh, john does X, y, z, but I think it's actually really hard to put my finger on all the things that you do. You're a renaissance man, if there ever was one, so can you tell me, like how, like when people ask you you know what do you do? How do you respond to that? When you're in the elevator, you're at a I don't know if you're frequent- cocktail parties.
John Marble:But you know, it's funny because one of the many things I do is teach students and I teach them this. But have I learned that lesson myself? I have not. So if I'm going to summarize it, I probably actually should work on it if I'm giving lessons about this, but probably to summarize it is, I educate companies and organizations about neurodiversity and also do some deep thinking on it as well.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):How long have you been doing? And this is your work at Pivot Neurodiversity? Yeah, but you're also in the conference circuit. You're not just a consultant, as it were, or you're actually on the speaking circuit. We're going to talk about your book.
John Marble:I say I need to work on an elevator pitch because, uh, yeah, I need to really learn how to condense that all all down. So I do a lot of speaking, do a lot of writing, um, traditionally on innovation, but more and more on neurodiversity probably the majority now on neurodiversity, um, but have a background in helping companies really understand what makes for effective organizations. So sometimes I'm pulled in that direction. But more and more I'm getting to ask about different neurodivergent conditions, neurodiversity at work. Just a lot of people saying, hey, I have a friend who maybe as a child, is trying to figure themselves out. So, yeah, not a, not a neat elevator pitch, but if we had a long elevator ride, that's it.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):Well, and we haven't even we haven't even gotten to your book. I think you're you're relatively new as an author.
John Marble:Yes and no. A lot of people don't realize. So I've been writing for a long time. I started out early in my career as a journalist working for a newspaper. Starting out doing sports entertainment features, went from that to a bit of ghostwriting over the years, writing increasingly for politicians whether that's speeches or parts of books, and editing as well, and for the first time, putting things out now at least for the first time since the beginning of my career in my actual voice, which is a bit different.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):And we're going to talk about sort of how you developed that voice. You're the author of Neurodiversity for Dummies. Yes, you're the author of Neurodiversity for Dummies. Yes, surprising that there wasn't one of those out already.
John Marble:There was not, and even more surprising to me was that there wasn't really a good foundational book on the subject. There are a lot of good slices that were out there. So when I started writing Neurodiversity for dummies for the four dummies line of books, I had a lot of pressure to actually get it right because I realized, oh, we're synthesizing a lot of things that haven't been put together before.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):Was what about like? Was there autism for dummies there?
John Marble:was an older, outdated book about autism for the four dummies line and it sounds like a setup, but it's not. Later this year and at the beginning of May we'll be coming out with Autism for Dummies. So just wrapping that up now.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):Okay, well, we're going to get back to that. But you mentioned your time in politics. I met you in Washington when I was beginning my very nascent career in politics after the Obama campaign and I met you at a. It was an Obama campaign alumni or appointee happy hour.
John Marble:Oh yeah, that's right.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):It's funny because actually other really key people in my life who led me to my path exploring artificial intelligence I also met at that happy hour, Todd Elmer.
John Marble:I never realized that.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):Um, so there's so much to talk about. We're going to fast forward through your time as a journalist. Uh, and then you're in this world of politics. Like how did you fall into that? Was it something you always wanted to do, or?
John Marble:Oh, that is a long and twisted tale or road. I'm trying to think of how I've literally not literally, but I pretty much did just fall into it.
John Marble:I was a, I'm going to date myself. I usually don't like telling this because it reveals how old I am, but I was just completing my, I think, sophomore year at community college and it just so happened that Al Gore was coming to my hometown for a week to do debate prep. So they asked for volunteers and I volunteered taking, you know, white House staffers on beer runs and like running errands and just that sort of thing. And at the end of the week somebody encouraged me to apply for a White House internship and I did, and at that time White House internships weren't really merit based. I remember showing up at the White House after I got it and people are like oh, my dad's mayor of so and so and my mom's ambassador to whatever. And I'm like I'm John and I just finished community college down in Florida.
John Marble:Community college down in Florida, um, and went from there and started working for the White House for the last two years of college doing advanced. So every couple of months would do a White House trip and then, uh, left college early to join a presidential campaign. So I never planned to go into politics but it kind of found me and kept pulling me forward and forward, and forward, but it kind of found me and kept pulling me forward and forward and forward and you also?
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):worked in the Obama administration. What did you do there?
John Marble:Yeah, so I was in the Office of Personnel Management. So I went in as a communications specialist because I had a background in press relations and mass communication but also had a passion for what makes workforces effective, Ended up doing a lot around innovation. There we had this young guy named Matt Collier who had just graduated college, kind of a typical Silicon Valley type, who came in to kind of break things and really think through new types of things. I had gotten to understand the bureaucracy well enough that I kind of served as a gatekeeper to. You know, slap his hand when it needed to be slapped, but also help him navigate the red tape.
John Marble:So we ended up doing a whole initiative around innovation, which I had never thought I'd be really passionate about workplace issues until we started working on that. Because once we started looking at what really makes for innovative workplaces, we started to see what really makes for effective workplaces. So I became very passionate about that. Effective workplaces so I became very passionate about that. Spent a lot of time coming out to California meeting with Silicon Valley, trying to incorporate outside thinking into government and over those years realized, oh, it's really nice out here. I knew my job would be ending when the president ended, so transitioned out to here after my time working for the government.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):And so the majority of the companies you advise today. They're generally tech companies.
John Marble:It's a mix. It started with that and then we started to get a lot of local government organizations, colleges, universities and now different types of private companies. And when I started Pivot Neurodiversity it was because a lot of people were coming to me wanting to hire and recruit different neurodivergent talent, but they really weren't sure how to do that. There are some initiatives out there that would help them, but I started to realize, well, hold on, all these companies actually have neurodivergent talent within them already. So a lot of that work started transitioning to helping companies understand their neurodivergent employees and how to support them in ways that they could thrive.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):And your work in neurodiversity did it. I mean, was there any intersection Like where did that sort of start to bloom? Because you know you're working in neurodiversity? Was there any intersection? Where did that start to bloom Because you were working in politics?
John Marble:Did neurodiversity come up in your role there, or was it something that, you being honest, I moved out here not really sure what I would be doing? I had spent enough time coming out to California that I realized oh, I have talents that fit here, but I wasn't sure exactly how, and so I had savings. I moved out here, but my brain just went back to me working my way through college and I was, I thought, well, I did manual labor, then I know how to do that.
John Marble:So I took a job at a warehouse like a minimum wage job at a warehouse Meanwhile, like I'm fielding calls from different tech companies on my lunch break just asking me advice about different employment things, and it took a friend to help me realize that I was giving away a lot of that information for free and I didn't realize that was something that you could be paid for for your knowledge, and so we were talking about that. Happen to be teaching as well, who happen to be as well teaching autistic young adults who are trying to transition to work.
John Marble:So I met with Jack. I met the students and immediately felt a connection and realized oh, this is something that I need to do and I still teach in that program. It's called Neurodiversity Pathways. It's run by Goodwill of Silicon Valley down in San Jose and it was really teaching these students who some of them had multiple degrees, because they could figure out how to get through school, but they couldn't figure out how to make that transition to work Became really passionate about that, and it was in connecting those students to different job opportunities that I started to field a lot of questions from companies about what do we do about neurodiversity, and it became more than just getting my students jobs. It became about how do we really make sure all these organizations can thrive when it comes around neurodiversity?
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):so you mentioned you had to out yourself. Um, and you know, even just you know, thinking back to when I was in high school, there's been uh, it feels like there's people significantly more open to having the conversation about neurodivergence and there's a whole conversation to be had about, you know, the umbrella and sort of all the different sort of like sub communities within the neurodivergent community. But so when you were in DC, were there other neurodivergent mentors? How did that actually happen?
John Marble:I had to find them and in fact I remember the moment that really changed my career and I really do think it changed my life and it was Dave Noble who I believe at the time was deputy director of White House personnel. He invited me to lunch at the white house mess and in my experience, at a pointy I was a presidential appointee. But a presidential appointee at my level doesn't usually eat at the white house mess, and if somebody like me gets invited by white house personnel to the white house mess, it usually means you're getting a promotion or maybe you're being shown the door. Thank you for your service. Here's a nice lunch. Here's some presidential M&Ms.
John Marble:We're going in a different direction, so I was nervous. It turned out neither was the case. Dave just wanted to catch up and know what I was up to and specifically know what I was doing in Silicon Valley and hear about the work that our office was doing. So we had a great lunch and at the end of lunch I said Dave, I need to tell you something that only my parents and my best friend and my doctor knows. But I have autism and I need to ask my manager for an accommodation and I'm not sure how to do that and it got really quiet for what I thought was a half hour, but it was probably 0.0001 seconds. But I was so nervous and his response changed my life. He said John, that's fantastic.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):And I paused and he looked at me and he says you seem a bit confused and I'm like well, yeah, I am.
John Marble:He said we've known each other a long time. He was my boss in a previous role. He said you're definitely an odd guy. And he said that in a way that was very endearing. Sometimes when I tell the story people get upset with him. But he knew me well enough that he could say you're definitely an odd guy, but you think about things differently.
John Marble:Have you ever thought that your autism has helped you in your career? And I said no, I've overcome it. I've hidden it quite well from my colleagues. I've papered over it. What are you talking about?
John Marble:And Dave said no, john, like think about the things that you've worked on. You think about things differently, and that's needed in the workplace. He said my job in White House personnel is to bring together people with different perspectives so that they can accomplish big things and tackle big problems. And he said you work in innovation. What is the first rule of innovation that you always tell me? And I said well, if you want a larger array of potential outcomes, you have to have a larger array of potential inputs. And he was like exactly so. I can't have everybody come from the same geographic region or the same educational background or the same demographic background. I need people coming together to look at things differently so that we can solve those problems. And he said I will help you figure out how to get your accommodation, but I need you to figure out how to be comfortable with yourself and bring that to work.
John Marble:I share that story a lot with managers because it was something that I didn't expect. It probably took me another year to really start to accept that I was autistic, but I wouldn't have done that if not for Dave. So Dave told me I will help you get your accommodation, but I need you to figure out yourself and be comfortable with that and bring it to work. And it took me about a year to start to do that. And to this day we cannot remember what that accommodation was, which is so funny because I built it up so big in my head that I had to ask my manager for this, and I recently texted Dave about this and neither of us can remember what it is. But I'll get the quote wrong, but it paraphrased the Maya Angelou quote about people don't remember what you say, but they remember how you make them feel. And it was really that feeling of like. Oh well, this is like my manager's manager's manager, who is treating this as totally normal and as something that I just needed for my job. And that really had a profound impact on me.
John Marble:And after about a year I really started to apply my different ways of thinking to work, and at that point I started to get called into meetings that were far beyond my portfolio. You know, how do we stop Ebola from jumping the Atlantic, how do we make TSA lines shorter without jeopardizing security? And it wasn't because I had some sort of superpower. I just had another variable that I looked at some things differently. So adding me into the equation turned out to be a benefit.
John Marble:If I'm being honest, when I teach my students, that's a great story on paper about how you learn to love yourself and accept yourself and bring it to work. But if I'm being honest, it's a lesson that I think that I have to teach myself again and again, especially in a world that's not really designed for autistic thinkers like myself. Just to remind myself oh yeah, I'm normal. I might be different. I might need to learn how to translate that between me and colleagues or me and friends, but there's nothing inherently wrong with me. And again, that sounds easy on paper, but it's the hardest lesson that I've had to learn.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):So I don't want to put you on the spot, but you know when, when you're describing your career in politics, you're an entrepreneur, um, you know you're on an international speaking circuit. You know and I was really excited for this podcast because I feel like you know often, you know you're, you're you're very often the life of the party.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):You're a storyteller, you're engaging you're you're, you're very often the life of the party, you're a storyteller, you're engaging, you're gregarious, um and so so, to our, our listeners and viewers, who are kind of wondering, like well, like what were those challenges? Like, and if you'll, if you're willing to sort of divulge, like what are some of the things that you've had to overcome? Yeah Well, how does it?
John Marble:manifest. Well, well, first of all, thank you for sharing that, because it's difficult to pick up on neurotypical social cues, so I don't know if I'm the life of the party, so you saying that actually um helps a lot. Oh, that is a big bucket of things. Do you mean like professionally or or personally, or?
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):yeah, just just reach into the hat. Doesn't have to be the biggest thing, but just one sort of one sort of thing that you deal with day to day that a neurotypical person just probably doesn't yeah, can I start with social situations?
John Marble:can I maybe center around you, if that's okay? Um so, being autistic, I also have a couple other neurodivergent conditions ADHD, dyscalculia as well. But being autistic, it can be difficult for me to pick up on cultural cues that aren't natural to me. So say, if we're at a restaurant and the group decides to go to a bar afterwards, there's a lot of subtle social cues that go on that I'm really not sure if I'm supposed to go to the next place or not. So I think that you and some other people are really good about saying John, we're going to the second location, would you like to come with us? And then at that point I realized, oh yeah, otherwise I would be terrified and I just wouldn't go to that second location.
John Marble:I think I've asked you before. You've had dinner parties and you've told me like, about a dinner party, and I've had to ask you. You've given me the psychological safety to ask, like, are you inviting me to this dinner party? Are you just telling I'm like, I'm really happy that you're doing this dinner party, but without that certainty of having a direct invitation, that's really difficult. I often like to joke that a lot of autistic people socially are like Dracula or vampires on your doorstep, like we need a specific invitation to come inside or else we can't come inside.
John Marble:So definitely like direct communication helps and that translates to the workplace as well. There's a lot of communication that goes on in workplaces that are implied and if you're not neurotypical, that can be difficult to pick up on. Also, if you happen to be an immigrant, that could be difficult to pick up on. There's a lot of parallels between neurodivergent thinkers and other groups in the workplace that a lot of times I'll go into an organization to talk about neurodiversity but end up talking about other groups as well, because it's different life experiences, but sometimes the barriers can be the same and I you'll, you'll understand the path that I'm leading us down, because I do want to talk about artificial intelligence and some of the ways that it either intersects with neurodiversity.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):Just thinking back to even when you were launching Pivot Neurodiversity and you were sort of describing to me the challenges, it really felt like with you once the ball is rolling down the hill, like everything sort of is, it's almost like it flows intuitively from you, um, but I feel like very often you'd come to me and it would just and you'd be stuck on. You know, not hard stuff, yeah, but just like the small stuff, the obvious stuff the how, how am I like?
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):should I be asking for money? For this is like you're even your story about your friend. It's like yes yeah of course you should. Um, and I I was curious if you could just maybe go into that a little bit more, like are there any stories about sort of just moments that things that neurotypical people maybe not don't even think about, that are actually really challenging for you, and sort of just moments that things that neurotypical people maybe don't even think about, that are actually really challenging for you, and sort of?
John Marble:Yeah, I have a couple and I still have those challenges. Like I almost asked you before we started taping today for advice on a couple of those things, and we can get into the why it happens. But I just remember a couple of things. I remember one time having lunch with my friend a different Alex, but my friend Alex in LA, he's autistic, he's a producer, he's also been on the conference circuit and before I really started public speaking he said yeah, I think as autistic people, we're often reluctant to ask for our speaking fees. And I said what do you mean speaking fees? And he said have you not been getting paid? I'm like no, like I needed that example of like oh no, this is something that people will pay you for and this is how you go about it. A lot of times autistic people without that sort of example, we just don't know.
John Marble:Another example of that is when I moved to San Francisco, started to build my LinkedIn profile and started asking friends for help building my LinkedIn profile. I said I cognitively don't understand how to do this. And friends would laugh at me, not in a mean way, but they would say, john, haven't you?
John Marble:been to LinkedIn before, and I'm like yeah, I've met with their founder and their president and we've had all sorts of great policy discussions. I don't cognitively understand how to build a LinkedIn profile. I've tried. None of my friends believed me and it took going to a group called Ascend, which is here in San Francisco, and it's a group of autistic adults and family members and researchers. They partnered one weekend with LinkedIn to explain how to build a LinkedIn profile in a way that the autistic brain would understand, and watching that I'm like, oh, now I get that.
John Marble:It's such a little thing that it's hard to translate to friends. Exactly the things that I still struggle with and you mentioned, like difficulty getting things started, that's also very much a trait of a lot of people with ADHD. It's like the law of once in motion, an object will continue to stay in motion, but actually getting that motion can be difficult. So I one of my greatest desires is that there's more education to neurodivergent people, especially to autistic thinkers, about these little types of things. Once we figure it out, we can get really good at it, but unless we're kind of shown the example, it can be pretty difficult to start.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):And you've been fortunate. You may not have been born to a silver spoon, but you managed to surround yourself with mentors and advisors and friends. You know, manage to surround yourself with mentors and advisors and friends. What is the lived experience like for someone who is? And maybe we can focus on autism, because you know it's there's? I mean, I understand, even within autism there's sort of like a broad spectrum. But for you know, for someone who graduates high school, they're going into the workplace, like, how easy or hard is it for someone to find a mentor or someone to just like sort of walk them through? Sure, it's easy stuff, but you still need somebody that cares and that you feel comfortable asking for help. And I'm I'm just curious being, you know you're in the front lines of this. I mean, you support students. Is this, you know? Is this everywhere? Like, you know, where do people turn?
John Marble:what I worry that it's becoming more difficult because I I feel like somebody my age regardless of whether you're autistic or not it was just very much emphasized to find mentors and and find people who could guide you along. So, unrelated to autism, I was very fortunate early on to have career mentors that I still keep in touch with who were able to help me out. As far as like the autism stuff. You know, it felt like I didn't really have anybody and it felt like autistic people were kind of trading information back and forth about what works, what doesn't it still feels that way to a large extent what doesn't. It still feels that way to a large extent. But I think that people my age are starting to figure out things, to kind of codify this knowledge so that we could pass it on. It's part of the reason why I'm writing books, it's part of the reason why I'm doing other things, and so I look at it and think you know, oh, we're 10 years younger, we're 20 years younger, but we are where we are.
John Marble:And I still have times in life that I'm still figuring things out and I'm like, oh, yeah, I yeah, somebody should have shown me this 20 years ago, but I'm just now realizing that. Oh yeah, this is a gap in knowledge that I might have, but it does feel like I've had to figure out a lot of that myself or find other people who figured out their portions and I figured out this portion, and we trade information back and forth.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):It's interesting because so much money flows to nonprofit organizations working on autism. Where does it go?
John Marble:This is the bane of my existence.
John Marble:Less than 1% of autism funding in the United States goes to issues that really support autistic people and their families across the lifespan, meaning like, once they're 18, how are they going to live in life? You know, what are the accommodations that they need? What does it look like when autistic people marry and form relationships? What about aging? Most of it goes into trying to figure out who we are, which is an interesting thing to study, but not really a lot of the practical things that we need in life.
John Marble:So it's not officially part of my job, but I meet with a lot of autism researchers, show up to a lot of scientific conferences to try to, you know, help slowly move the focus into the practical things that we need and I'm not the only person doing it, and I think that the more that we see specifically autistic people kind of exercise the voice and, hey, these are things that we need we're starting to see a larger focus on that. There's now an association of autistic autism researchers. There's an association of autistic doctors and medical professionals. You know, again, these are people who've traded information back and forth between themselves but are now saying we need our, our industries to better understand the autistic experience and, by proxy, the different neurodivergent experiences that are out there.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):Yeah, I'd like to go down this, this path of AI and talk about. You know, something that we struggle with at AIEDU is this question of how much AI should we have in schools. Should this be in front of every single student? I don't want to go down that rabbit hole. The answer, for us at least, is it's complicated. The answer for us, at least, is it's complicated. We worry about. I mean, there's traditional things that you hear like, you know like bias and the algorithms, which is definitely a huge problem and almost certainly unsolvable or very likely unsolvable when you've worked around there's. You know access, there's cost, there's the risk of you know.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):AI becoming a crutch and actually getting in the way of learning. You know AI becoming a crutch and actually getting in the way of learning, but when someone asks me should schools be using AI, should students have access to AI, I do sort of come back to. There are certain, certain students for whom this could really be transformational, and I and part of what actually led me to that is even just the conversations you and I had about how you've been using language models in helping you write your book, and even with the things that you described like sort of like how to, how does you know polite society deal with X, Y, Z? These are things that language models are very good at, and it's someone that's not going to judge you that you could always turn to just ask for advice. My guess is that most language models out today would probably do a pretty good job helping you read social cues, and so that's an assumption that I have, and I think what we at AIDU and even the panel that we're going to be speaking at at South by Southwest I think the goal of you know work that we've been embarking on over the next year is try to really test that assumption and and the way we get there is by really having, you know folks in the community be the ones that tell us.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):So I'm curious for your take. I mean, you've you, I know that you've used it Like, do you have a big picture? Are you pro AI, Like was it transformational or was it sort of just somewhat useful? I mean, like, just tell me about what you know, how language models sort of like started to fit into your life and you know, maybe from there we can talk about the bigger picture implications of that well, let me actually back you up a bit and make the case first for ai, education for all students, and then it happens, maybe to benefit some of us a bit more.
John Marble:I tend to think of AI and AI education along the lines of what Neil deGrasse Tyson talks about with science education. He has various quotes about this, but he basically makes the point that it's not necessarily that we need more scientists, but we need a scientifically literate population, and he gives a lot of reasons why the implications for policy and advancement I think I heard him talk about. One time a reporter asked him about his own daughters, if he wanted his daughters to be scientists, and he says well, I at least want them to be scientifically literate and then they can do what they want to. I think about the same with AI. I think that we need a population that's AI literate, not that they're going to go and actually enter fields that directly create.
John Marble:AI but it's beneficial if we have a population that's literate.
John Marble:And I kind of think of an example when I teach my students.
John Marble:So I still teach autistic adults who are either transitioning to work or trying to advance in their career, and I give a couple lessons on the future of work and I always show them a photo of an old switchboard telephone operator and ask them what this photo is and sadly, year after year, less and less people actually know what it is because it's so outdated.
John Marble:And I talk with them about how there's always been this fear that technology will take away jobs. But in reality our jobs continue to morph and it's been that same sort of pattern for the last several hundred years. So when I teach them, my focus is not on getting them advanced technical information not necessarily educating them about the ins and outs of AI, but really helping them understand how the nature of work shifts and we can't predict what that is, but being prepared for that and to critically think about those things can really position them well. So when it comes to AI, I kind of use AI in sort of an art group manner what I'm getting from AI and whether it's giving me something that smells a little bit fishy or is really helpful, and being aware of that has really helped me kind of use AI as a tool in my work and also as a way to teach my students, and I feel like I lost the last half of what you asked me.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):I don't know if you remember what that was Well, yeah, he just made me walk me through some. What are some of the ways that you used AI in writing your book?
John Marble:Yeah, so I use large language models when we're writing our first book and I should say that I've co-authored it with two wonderful colleagues, krish Puchab Chhabria and Ranga Jayaraman and using AI it was so helpful to help me think through things. I remember you know it's a four dummies book, so we need to make it pretty digestible for readers and some. You know, if I'm explaining the genetic underpinnings of autism, I have to do it in a way that the public will kind of understand, and so I even forget what point I was using in the neurodiversity book. But I was trying to think of kind of an example and I'm like I think there's an example there with maybe Polynesian sailors, and just started to talk to large language models about, yeah, who are the first people to set out in Micronesia? Where did they come from? And it was like this hour-long conversation to get to the point of, oh, all of a sudden I have a really great narrative that I want to write in my book, and so it wasn't using AI to kind of look for answers, but really using AI in a way that would help me think about things and also to kind of edit myself as well.
John Marble:I think I'm a pretty good editor. I love editing other people's work. I love editing my work. But AI is a pretty good editor too. If I were to ask it something, I'm like oh you know what? I really should have cut that word that it suggests cutting.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):So deeply appreciative of that um yeah, we had the uh founders of kaleidoscope, which is one of the leading podcast studios, and the big insight from that conversation was just the power of storytelling. And, you know, engaging students like student engagement in schools, is so difficult. Students are checking out, they don't feel like learning is relevant and what you just described to me is sort of I mean, it feels really repeatable for educators. It's like you want to engage somebody in learning, telling a compelling story, finding something surprising funny.
John Marble:This is going to sound weird, but you're making me realize that I really, especially in writing the books, that I really used AI to express empathy. And it sounds weird on surface, but just thinking about things of like okay, I am writing this particular chapter that is maybe addressed to parents with kids who have more complex needs, who might be non-speaking, really using AI to kind of delve down into the specific challenges that they have.
John Marble:You know, I'm not one of those parents. I have friends who are those parents. But working with my friends and working with AI to really uncover, okay, what are those pressure points Doing the same thing in chapters addressed to educators or therapists of figuring out, okay, how can I apply even more empathy here? Of, like you know, these people have a lot of other things to deal with. And now I'm going to add on understanding neurodiversity to that. How do I do this in a way that's not taxing to them but digestible, in a way that they really understand? And I hadn't thought. I wish I had a more polished answer for you because I haven't really thought about it consciously until now. But looking back, I realized, oh well, I did use that a lot specifically to think about like, okay, okay, I'm making this particular argument that other people might disagree with asking language models. How would I do this in a way that somebody completely opposed to what I'm saying would still find value in it? And again, it's.
John Marble:I don't think that you'd expect language models to give you perfect answers but it gave me insights that really then opened my thinking even broader and led me to deeper conversations that I really think really benefited our work.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):You're describing basically the ideal scenario. What I didn't hear is that you're using AI to write passages. My guess is that it probably would not have done a good job, having read the book and you do an incredible job. It's sort of light, it's funny, it can also get quite nerdy and deep, but it sort of pulls back at just the right moments and we struggle with this a lot. A teacher and this generally is in the form of educators coming to us and they're sort of like okay, I'm here, how do I learn how to prompt?
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):engineer. I'm like what are the? What are the? What prompts do I need to memorize to do XYZ? And there's a lot of folks out there that well, even there's, I think people are selling like prompt Bibles where you can like memorize the prompts.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):And you know, I I'm quite convicted that there is no magic prompt that you should be using with these tools. It's it's a lot more about experimentation plus domain expertise. So you have the domain expertise and you were experimenting. And I remember the first time when you were telling me you were setting off writing this book and I was like John, I'm telling you just download, chat, gpt or log in. You know, create an account, attach a BT and just start using it, you were, and you were like, well, can like how do I do it?
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):can you show me? And I was like, honestly, I, I could, I could sit down with you. But the real way this works is you just have to just start playing around with it. And I'm curious, like because you I don't know if you would consider yourself a power user, but what you're describing is, I think, where we want to get folks. And how. How did you? Was there like an aha moment, like did you take a course? Like how did you get yourself to kind of become more comfortable?
John Marble:That was an aha moment. This is another aha moment because you're making me feel normal for doing it how I did, because I've still had this fear that, oh, I'm doing it wrong. But I just kind of went out and tried, based on your suggestion that I do. So I will say save your prompts, because I've learned to write beautifully complex prompts and then always forget to save them. And it's a very autistic thing that you just build things up from the ground level every time. So I'm like recreating these prompts over and over again.
John Marble:But it was in that exercise of just like using chat, gpt and other language models, of just trying that. And again I go back to I think that there's value in teaching people how to critically use these tools. I'm just, you know, know, I'm an old man yelling at a cloud when I often say like, oh, we don't teach people really how to critically think anymore, and I think that's such a hugely valuable skill. In parallel to that, I think, is really thinking about how to critically think about ai. You know, we don't. I'll make the case that we don't necessarily have to have everybody educated about the technical aspects of.
John Marble:AI, but we should have people educated in how to think about AI, and I think if you educate people on how to think about AI, then that makes for better users. It makes for better consumers. Some of those consumers will become, you know, people who create products down the line, but we all don't have to do that I might never create an AI product, but it can still change my life by how I use it.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):And especially for you know, if I'm thinking about a student who is falling behind. There's been a big push to integrate, you know, special students in special education into general classrooms. You've told me just to repeat back to you sort of the conversation and please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's generally seen as a positive thing. We don't want to separate those kids out. The missing piece, though, is that kids are integrated back into um the.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):Is it, you say, general population or it's fun, yeah, yeah um, but they don't necessarily have the supports, and so now you have a teacher who doesn't necessarily have the skill set, um, to support, uh, a neurodivergent students or multiple neurodivergent students, and in that, in that case, I feel like there's far less debate. I think there's a lot of debate about exactly the role that AI should play, but it feels so obvious Like there's there's some some low hanging fruit ways that schools can start to use AI to to level the playing field. And but I'm curious, for for a school, you know, know, if you're, there's a school leader out there and they're hearing this and they're feeling like, well, okay, yeah, I want to, I want to do that. I just don't feel like I know, like who can? Who can folks turn to like are there? Because I think there's often a lack of expertise within or they're just stretched far too thin. Um that's.
John Marble:That's what it is and, if I'm being honest with you, this is the sort of thing that I'm doing some deep thinking on now, because ideally, absolutely, we should have all students in a mainstream classroom. Practically, that transition can be really bumpy for the students, for parents, for teachers, and it's for the reasons that you lay out. People don't have the resource, they don't have the information you mentioned. What's taxing on teachers?
John Marble:It's also taxing on students and families figuring how do I thrive in a classroom like this? And so more and more we're seeing more of a blended approach, where students are moving back into a mainstream classroom, they're not being segregated, but they might have other services, and it's that tension that can be quite beautiful and wonderful, but also quite frustrating for everybody involved. And so I've started to think about okay, what are the approaches that we could do to help a teacher manage their stress points? Because not only are they having to teach various students, they're having to manage resources, they're having to work with their administration, they're having to fight battles, you know, on the district level to get the things that they need, and parents and students are similarly in a similar way. Parents and students are figuring out their own pressure points as well. So I've done a lot of deep thinking on you know certain approaches that help, but in our upcoming book we kind of lay out what those are Great. Now what if you apply some technology to that?
John Marble:It could speed up a lot of those approaches you know how do we get teachers the resources they need when they're in a resource-limited environment. That's something that technology and AI can help with. You know, even if it's relationship management with your school district or with families, and I've started to see things that work, for students and families Haven't yet started to see the technology that will help speed those things up. I see a lot of technology for disabled people and autistic people and neurodivergent people. Never quite works because people forget to ask us what we need. Never quite works because people forget to ask us what we need.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):But, at the same time, I'm very excited about the potential that's out there. I mean, so this is a really big challenge that we have to figure out, which is most of the companies building AI tools are not building them for neurodivergent kids or people more broadly, and there's clearly a need for folks. I mean, everything that you've said is like the most help that you received actually was generated from within the community, not necessarily from somebody outside. It's also kind of funny to think about autism researchers who aren't autistic, right, and there's a sort of like people that sort of looking in Um and and so we hear things like well, we need user centered design, we need, you know to, to create a seat at the table, you know, for folks from different communities to sort of participate and help guide things.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):Um, and I I'm curious what the because I think that there's more work to be done and I'm curious, especially given that you do this. You have these conversations at companies where you're trying to help them think about how do they leverage their workforce and their neurodivergent workforce. What advice do you have for, whether it's a startup or a big technology company that's trying to figure out, how do I engage the neurodiversity communitydiversity community but I mean I shouldn't give this away because I should ask people to pay me for this knowledge.
John Marble:but it's so simple and I'm so invested in this actually happening, that the biggest thing is just to involve these populations in the building of these products. And a lot of people are probably listening or watching and thinking, well, yeah, that makes sense. It hasn't happened in the disability space. I just see it over and over again and I get why I'm empathetic with why people get excited. Maybe they have a tech background or maybe they have a child and they have an idea and they're going to build it. And I always look at it early on and I look at who's behind it and I'm like, yeah, if you don't have any of the users involved at the beginning, you're going to spend a lot of money and it's going to fail. And it happens again and again and again. And I'm just thinking, if you just spend a little bit of money and decided around the end user, you could be making lots of money. I want people making lots of money on tech products that actually help people. But it's just funny that I see it again and again.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):Yeah, I mean, these are some of the folks we're actually talking to, talking with at South by Southwest the Center for Applied Special Technologies, cast Shout out to Lindsay Jones, dyslexic Edge just two organizations that we've talked to. And they're eager as well, I think what seems to be a challenge that we have not fully addressed is there is this there's still gatekeeping around AI and technology.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):And I think people feel intimidated when they don't have the technical background or expertise. They don't feel like they belong. And I think often, sometimes, if the conversation is too technical, if it's too esoteric, then people won't really understand like how they're supposed to participate. And so a lot of the work we have done has been really aimed at like how do you sort of distill this complex topic into you know, when you talk about AI literacy, I think it's not just about like, how do you use the tool and how do you sort of build this knowledge, but also how do you build the confidence for people to identify where, where they sort of fit into this project, that we have a society, to really answer the question of like, not just should we be using ai, but how do we use it, how do we use it for, uh, the people that were supposedly interested in helping?
John Marble:yeah, I wonder if some of that gatekeeping is just nervousness, because it's an emerging kind of market I mean you don't see co, see Coca-Cola, nervous about whether or not their consumers are educated about the ins and outs of carbonated beverages and how that's made, not to say that people, not to equate AI with just a consumer product, but you want people educated enough that they can appreciate what's going on, because at that point people start to identify their own needs and you know, even in the neurodiversity space, I think of like, oh yeah, I wish I had a tool that did this, or I wish I had a tool that did that. I'm not gonna go out and build that product, but just knowing a little bit about ai and realizing, oh yeah, that ai is something that could help with that. I don't know how, but I could talk to other people and maybe get them excited about like, hey, you want to make some money, this is something that I need. Maybe you want to research if other people need this as well. You might have the technical expertise to do this.
John Marble:I would again go back to the critical need that I see in meeting with companies is really to have a workforce that is educated about how to think about things. And to give you an example, I remember meeting with a tech company I won't mention who they are and I was trying to sell them on job opportunities for my graduates of the program that I teach in. So autistic students who are graduating had incredible skills and I remember the executive at the tech company said yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Autism, that's great, I get it. Neurodiversity, that's great. Can you teach what you're saying, that you do with neurodivergent people, to non neurodivergent people?
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):And.
John Marble:I'm like what do you mean? And she said I just need employees who know how to be like well, explain that to me. And she said I am getting brilliant graduates of colleges who are coming in whether the coders or other things and they just don't know how to think about things in a critical way. And that was another aha moment in my life that I realized oh yeah, we might have certain challenges because of our neuro differences, but culturally, people are starting to culturally have challenges as well.
John Marble:So as I'm teaching my students how to think critically about things, I started to recognize oh well, we have that need as a society as well. So if we really want to be competitive, we need people to start looking at things in a critical eye. That I realized. Well, maybe we're not teaching that anymore. So part of the reason why I'm excited about AI is not necessarily to teach the technical skills, but you have this thing that is transforming our lives and will continue to transform our lives, and if we can get people to think critically about it, that just has all sorts of benefits.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):Yeah, this has actually been a mantra from CEOs for decades. If you ask them like what are the skills that you're looking for most, they don't say software engineering or financial accounting. They'll say the ability to literally have conversations, to work in teams, to collaborate.
John Marble:Absolutely, and it goes into one of the big things that I do with companies.
John Marble:Honestly, a lot of it is management training. I'll go in and help managers understand how to manage neurodivergent employees, but in the United States we don't really teach managers how to manage anymore. It used to be that way it used to be. If you became a manager, you were then educated about how to manage these teams. Now we promote people to management positions and we don't equip them at all. We just kind of throw them in there, and so a lot of what I do is, yes, helping people understand how to manage neurodivergent employees, but it's really about how to manage kind of all employees as well. Same things with my neurodivergent students is I'm realizing that, yeah, I teach them how to to work with their teams, but oh yeah, I think everybody, I think a lot of people kind of need help with this as well.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):So I thought of something. If you haven't done this already, um, not, I'm, I actually I would love to help you with this. You could take the sort of the key chapters or excerpts from your book and we could build a uh, a language model like a, like a gpt, if you will. Um, I'd be curious, because I I heard you mention parents over and over again, like do you think there'd be demand for a place for parents to turn when they just have questions and they don't necessarily have, you know, a psychologist on speed dial?
John Marble:Absolutely, and I don't even know if the psychologists are always the best resources for them. You know, part of the reason that we wanted to write these books was that I had been complaining for a long time of like I wish I just had a book I could give somebody, because there wasn't really a good comprehensive book.
John Marble:There are a lot of great books out there with, like little segments but I'm like I, just you know, being an autistic adult and having friends who are not autistic but who have autistic kids, I just started to map out, ooh, all the gaps that I miss, that they're missing, all the needs that they had. So I think the book is like the foundational part of it. I am not setting up our book as the only font of knowledge, but having kind of that base knowledge out there starts to reveal oh yeah, there should be technological layers in this and we could be speeding up knowledge, we could be getting people a lot more resources. I think it's in having conversations like this that I realize that need and then you say, well, there's a technological aspect to this.
John Marble:And I'm like oh yeah, of course. Now I'm thinking of three other things that could help as well. Those are the sort of the things that I get really excited about and that I try to push people to think about.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):I think the nuance is I could take your book. I don't exactly know the fastest way to get the PDF would be, but let's just say, have the PDF. That would be the hardest part. I could build a GPT, customize it to your book, maybe even tell me which chapters to use. The thing is, I wouldn't be able to know if it actually works, and so I think this is where, when we talk about user-centered design, you don't even need to be the one to build the entire thing end-to-end.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):I could do it for you. Actually, it's very easy, you definitely could do it. But I think the missing step that that I've heard you raise, and so, just in this specific thought experiment, before you share this with a bunch of parents who might be making consequential decisions based on the advice, I feel like I would need someone like you, and my guess is you would even say let me pull in some other folks to red team this and it just strikes me that there isn't yet the infrastructure for like a team of people who are sort of easily tapped for answering questions like that.
John Marble:Yeah, but nobody asks us. If there is Like just asking that question there is like just asking that question I'm like I'm just waiting for somebody to ask me about. I would love to build a cadre of people who'd be able to help with that, and they definitely exist out there. I can tell you like I think it's started off subconsciously and then we became conscious of it and you know we have these two books Neurodiversity for Dummies and now Autism for Dummies that our reader base. We address different chapters to say, autism for dummies, autistic adults, to parents, to educators, to therapists, to employers.
John Marble:It started off in a subconscious way but I think by the end of writing that second book we were very conscious about using those chapters almost as seeds that could get people excited to realize, oh, this is a chapter for educators. This is making me think of this that we need and that that we need. I think that I could write something about this or build something about that. So, hearing you say that, I'm like, oh, maybe it's working. That's exactly what we want to do, because I tell people, especially entrepreneurs, the need is so vast out there and the market is so vast out there that if you approach it the right way, you could absolutely build tools that are successful and really help people.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):Yeah, what would be on your wishlist, like, if you just think about like, are there any things that were you just moments in your day where you've said to yourself, if only I had a tool that could do X?
John Marble:Yeah, well, I had one recently. So one trait of autism is something called a meltdown, where there's a flood of different chemicals like cortisol. That in stress hormones is a lot more complicated than that, and when we think about meltdowns with autistic children, oftentimes it looks like tantrums. It's not a tantrum, it's a physiological response. We've become pretty good at society about helping parents and educators kind of manage autistic meltdowns. Well, what happens when I become an adult? You know I've learned coping mechanisms, that it doesn't happen often, but when it does it's like really hits me like a truck.
John Marble:I remember I was up speaking at Chico State a couple weeks ago. By the end of the day I was so exhausted that I started to go into a meltdown, retreated to my hotel room, took care of myself, and then a colleague texted me and like I'm swearing at my colleague through text because I realized, oh, I got myself in a quiet space. You know I'm calmed down, I felt calm. I'm like I'm managing this and I realized like oh, nobody taught me what to do. When all of a sudden you get a text and you have to respond to it, I'm like why isn't there an app to help adults with?
John Marble:Like I'm either having this meltdown or the shutdown or this degradation in my speech, which I was having as well. It was hard for me to talk of just navigating me through it Like I'm speaking at a conference, alex. I was literally going to a table to sign copies of my book and I could no longer speak. You know I'm a verbal autistic, but every now and again I have challenges with speech and I'm like sitting there there, like trying to verbally and non-verbally communicate with people as they're asking me questions and I'm smiling and not nodding but at the same time like not able to speak. Fortunately there was another autistic author who knew what was going on, who pitched in to help me respond to that. But I'm like why isn't there an app to kind of navigate?
John Marble:you know, my speech is slowing down and this is going on and it kind of guides you into that. That got very like specific. But on a broader level, I often think of you, know, as an autistic thinker, and I think a lot of ADHD thinkers are like this. Thinkers are like this. We think about so many vast things that I'm just constantly thirsting for structure and scaffolding to kind of help me think about things and make decisions. And I think you know I've kind of learned how to use language models that way. But I think like that would be an incredible product.
John Marble:My life would be so much easier if I just had a guide of like OK, you're thinking about 40 things. You're really just wanting to decide where to get coffee this morning. You don't need to think about those 40 things. Let's limit the choices here. And the same goes with like starting new product lines or starting new curriculum. I see these things pop up all the time and I'm like, ah, if we had this, if we had that, my life would be so much easier. That being said, I think I've like wandered away from your the heart of your question.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):No, no, I think this is exactly what I was digging for. Yeah, so a coach is almost an obvious. It is, on the one, on the one hand, obvious Um, but I don't think it's actually. I don't think it's terribly easy. It's sure you could use Chad GPT. Uh, you could definitely train. We could do it in five minutes, three minutes.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):Uh, train a, uh sort of a neurodiversity coach, um, making sure that it's high quality making sure that because you're reaching people in these moments of and I've actually been with you it really does. I can't remember the last time you had a meltdown, it must have been years ago, but I benefited because I had John GPT, who you had actually sort of walked me through and I knew you basically described what happens and so I knew exactly what was happening and people were asking if you're OK.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):And I was just like, yeah, I just need some space and it was. But there's so many people who don't necessarily have someone who's sort of as eloquent and able to kind of explain you know, what is this actually really complex thing where actually there's nothing I can do to help you. It's not about me sort of hovering around and trying to bring you things. It's like I need to give you space. So, having a coach, a neurodiversity coach, gpt, it would you know, it's something that I would want to be driven by, if not someone who is neurodivergent, certainly an organization that specializes in. You know how do you actually roll something like that out and ensure that it's effective? You know how do you?
John Marble:actually roll something like that out and ensure that it's effective. And this is the type of low hanging fruit that I get so frustrated that people who apply so much resources in the broader disability space just don't get Because this goes back to just some basic good innovation practices, design around the end user. There's plenty of people who can help you design these product products and get them out the right way, just for whatever reason. There's just a cultural block out there that people are like oh yeah, we forget to ask um people about this and I see greater disability space because it's it's beyond neurodiversity for whatever reason, any sort of application when it comes to disability. People just forget to ask the end users around. That I'm like, if you just spend a little bit of effort on the front end, the result can be so much bigger and also if you talk with communities, you'll find new opportunities as well.
John Marble:You know one of the things that I did a lot of deep thinking on and how to communicate this the right way. In our book, autism for dummies is the phenomenon with what's called autistic wandering. So a lot of times with kids you know who are autistic, they just might wander off and it becomes a safety issue and culturally we've always kind of looked at it from a safety issue. How do we prevent this from happening? I make the case, and other people make the case, of the fact that you know what it actually benefited me as a kid?
John Marble:Was it safe? No, I still will not tell my parents where I went as a child. They don't know. They didn't know that I was wandering. I grew up in the 80s where they just thought you were outside. They didn't know I was two miles away in a quarry, which is where I was. Do you want your kid two miles away in a quarry? No, but what I was doing was exploring and building knowledge and looking at plants and looking at traffic patterns and looking back I'm like, wow, I gained a lot from that. So in writing this book, I'm like how do I talk about it in a way that you know it's not just about prevention. Let's look at some positives Maybe and I make the case in the book that maybe there's some technology that we could develop that allows the child to experience those things without leaving their house, Because I don't want to frighten parents to think that I just want their autistic kids out wandering the neighborhood alone, but they do need outlets to grow their mind, to explore, whether that's video game based or other types of technology based.
John Marble:I just see those types of things everywhere that I'm like oh, there's a need for this, but nobody's asking us about what our needs are. So I always joke. I'm like I just need people to make money on autism, and what I mean by that is like just ask us what we need, the market's out there and you can build things that actually make you money and actually help a lot of people. And I keep saying autism, but the same is true with dyslexia, dyscalculia, ADHD, other types of experiences as well. Just ask the users what they need and you'd be really surprised.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):The types of things that you can develop. It feels that we have a lot of technology overhang. There's, you know, the. The frontiers of ai are moving forward seemingly faster than ever. I mean, there's been so many announcements. Last even just like two weeks, it's february 24th. Today, 25th today, so deep seek is a couple weeks behind us. We have claude's new um sonnet 3. Which is apparently quite exceptional in coding. The frontiers are moving forward. The bottleneck is actually not the capabilities of the technology anymore. When people ask, well, how far does AI need to go so that we can use it to do XYZ, the response this is not just my response, this is the response of almost everybody, all the technical founders that I've talked to it's already good enough.
John Marble:I think so.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):And certainly with reasoning models. Now it's good enough. What's missing is building the capacity within communities or organizations that are outside of tech, and it's an interesting challenge, right, Because the solution clearly isn't going to be those organizations need to hire a bunch of technologists. How do you? It's? It's a, I think it's more nuanced. It's like how do you actually build a culture of experimentation, how do you actually build the confidence within the smartest people in those organizations to actually start, sort of like, identifying?
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):You know what their needs could be, and I, I I don't have the answer to this, but I am kind of curious. Just based on you know, your experience working with companies, thinking about innovation in the workplace, you know what should we be doing, not over the next five years, but literally like in 2025, you know for and and let's just talk specifically at either a company, a non-profit that is hearing what you're saying, and it's like you know what we actually want. We want to be an early adopter, we want to actually be on the frontiers and push this forward. What are some of the obvious steps that they can take?
John Marble:yeah, I don't mean to keep repeating the point about going back to user center design, but I really do think that's the foundational thing. I remember going to this Autism at Work Summit. That was at a tech company and we're in an innovation lab and you had all these tech executives trying to figure out how do we get autistic people in our companies and do this and that and that. And I said and do this and that and that. And I said I'm the only autistic person in this room. And I pointed to this poster about innovation design. I said look at this poster about innovation where it says if you want better outcomes, you need to have more diverse inputs. And so there's 30 people in this room. I'm the only autistic person. There's a lot of autistic people who have different experiences than I do. Maybe get some more of us in this room. I'm the only autistic person. There's a lot of autistic people who have different experiences than I do. Maybe get some more of us in a room to actually inform what's going on.
John Marble:And you mentioned organizations. But I do have to caution that in the neurodiversity space, in the disability space, a lot of well-meaning organizations are set up by people who aren't us. Maybe they're started by parents, but slowly and slowly they add other people, and so I always look at organizations. I'm like, okay, if you're an autism organization, who are the autistic people in your leadership, who are your autistic experts? And that you know it makes a huge difference partnering with the end user and designing something versus not.
John Marble:And to a lot of people hearing this, this just seems like I'm repeating such a simple point, but I have to emphasize again that it just doesn't happen in this space and I'm like it's such an easy thing to do, and I think that's maybe why I get excited about AI, because past tech, past approaches with technology, have been I'm going to build this you know robot to teach kids how to do social skills. I'm like, ok, I can tell that's going to fail and I'm going to do this and well, that's going to fail. But AI, at least as a as a cultural concept, is fairly new, which I think makes it a bit more flexible, and people really asking the right questions about how do we get this right, just like you're asking about how do we get this right within the school system with education, and I think that's a beautiful point to actually start to mold things that really work for us.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):Yeah, I mean it is easier than ever to build stuff, and that's not just building, you know chatbots, it's. I mean, even if you want to build an app, you know, with the cursor you can pretty much do it. I mean you might need a little bit of code. It would help to have you know some entry-level coding, but you could, and so so the the most people are still writing.
John Marble:That's why I keep saying I'm repeating this point, but like I mean like I'm gonna keep, not I mean beyond, beyond this, I just in my daily life I'm, I think I'm gonna keep yelling this until people kind of realize it.
John Marble:To give you an example you know I mentioned, you know, a company building a robot to teach its social skills.
John Marble:That's great, but social skills vary across countries and what a lot of people don't realize is that, you know, maybe we're teaching autistic kids how to have the same nonverbal social cues as non-autistic kids, but that doesn't work if you go to Germany or go to Finland, because when I travel, you know, I go to places like Finland that doesn't use small talk, or Sweden that doesn't use small talk, and I'm like, oh my gosh, like my brain just feels so relaxed, whereas, you know, small talk is difficult for me and if I live in the United States, it becomes much more difficult to navigate the workplace and navigate friendships, because it relies on that Same thing with communication.
John Marble:You know, the autistic brain tends to prefer direct communication and vague things can be a lot more difficult. That's a lot more difficult in the United States or in the United Kingdom because culturally, you know, our social skills are a bit more vague. You go to Germany and try that, or the Netherlands, and they'll be like why aren't you getting to the point and telling me what I need? So when I go to those countries I'm like, oh, finally people who get me, because they're just telling me what they need and I don't have to guess on this fake thing or not. So that was a long way of saying that. A lot of the assumptions and approaches that people do, particularly for autistic kids, are based on their perspective of what should be.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):And I'm like that's not actually the reality.
John Marble:So again, talk to us and design things with us.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):Okay, so you talked about going to Finland. I feel like, of all the travel stories I've heard from you, finland it seems like the safest place that you've ever been, probably. Yes, again, yes, again. Reach into the hat. What's one country that you've been to? Maybe recently, or that just?
John Marble:sort of stands out. I was recently thinking about it, unfortunately just based on what's going on in the news, but traveling through eastern Congo and just the people that I met there, and at the time it was kind of a frozen war zone. Unfortunately, now it's broken out again into an active war zone, but I do tend to travel to some places that other people don't and I really do credit my neurodivergence for that Is this wandering.
John Marble:It's a little bit related to to wandering. You know not to dismiss my ADHD side or just calculate side, but there's a certain aspect of autism that a lot of times if an autistic person is interested in a subject, they'll learn everything that they could about it.
John Marble:To give you an example, you know dan akroyd, growing up as autistic in canada, was obsessed with dan akroyd's autistic yes, yeah, um, also tourette's, but growing up in canada he was obsessed with this german ghost hunter and he said that when he became an adult, you know he translated that into the Ghostbusters franchise. Same thing he was obsessed with the rhythm and blues growing up and that became the Blues Brothers and House of Blues. He also owns a vodka company, but I don't think he had an interest in alcohol as a kid. But it just gives you an idea that if there's something that we become passionate about, we can learn everything about it. And so, you know, I started to be interested in frozen conflicts and how people who for centuries have hated each other kind of learn to live with each other even if they don't like each other, which kind of led me to a lot of different places. But one of the things that I realized traveling the world is that how different cultures are from one another, and there's certain aspects of my brain that just felt more natural in different cultures. Like you know, no small talk in Sweden or Finland, or more direct communication in Germany, or the lack of eye contact in Japan. Culturally, it's offensive if you look people in the eyes based on their rank, and for me who, neurologically, just if it's painful for me to look at somebody in the eye, I feel more relaxed here Nobody's trying to look me in the eye and that led to a lot of deep thinking that I did on neurodiversity and where neurodivergent conditions came from.
John Marble:And we can't prove everything from the archaeological record. But the genetic history of conditions like dyslexia and ADHD and autism tells us that these conditions have been with humanity perhaps as long as humanity has existed, certainly since humans first began migrating out of Africa. So that genetic story tells us that these conditions have been around a long time. Maybe there's a reason for that, maybe there's not. I argue that there is. But what becomes clear is that societies develop in different ways and in certain societies some people with certain types of brains can thrive really well and people with other types of brains might have a bit more difficulty. So traveling the world and seeing that oh yeah, I have less difficulty here but more difficulty there, it started to reinforce to me, kind of just the normalcy of neurodiversity and it started to help me realize that, oh yeah, maybe if we're building solutions with technology for neurodivergent people, maybe we should try to understand them more before just giving them a solution which has historically been the case in the United States. So that's, geopolitically, what yeah.
John Marble:I mean, I think for a lot of places you know, europe has tend to be better at this Australia, new Zealand have been a little bit better with this but in the United States it's just like this is what we think an autistic child should do, so we'll teach you this.
John Marble:Maybe that's not the case. So, again, realizing that, well, we have the opportunity to really understand people, to ask people about their lives and to develop solutions for them. Again, not to make a commercial about AI education, but I guess that's what this is. But it's where I get excited about things like AI. Again, I'll make the point I don't know the technical aspects of AI, but I'm very enthusiastic about it because I realized that, well, it's at a point in time that people are starting to ask questions and starting to develop things, and it feels like we're culturally those of us who aren't technical experts are at the ground level of maybe participating in that conversation. So, again, I get really excited just realizing that the potential is out there for tools that can really help me and a lot of other people, for tools that can really help me and a lot of other people.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):Yeah, I a good friend of mine. His son is autistic and you know he just describes the rabbit holes that he'll go.
John Marble:Oh my.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):That's actually been one of the big uses of chat. Gbt is his son. It allows him to indulge his sort of, like you know, kind of haphazard, but very intense and deep.
John Marble:Yes.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):Obsessions and you know he'll tell me like I just couldn't keep up and it's. It's actually really beautiful to me that that's. That's something that you know I has there's lots of. You know there's two sides to the sword of of AI, but being this like resource that can indulge people's curiosity, it seems so, so powerful and, I think, untapped. Yet I think most, again, most people are still writing sonnets and translating something to sound like a pirate or you know, creating raps, oh really, oh yeah, then I've gone way deeper than people.
John Marble:I mean, you say, you say two sides of a sword, but I really look at it as neutral, like any technology can be good, or bad. That's been the case with technology since humans first started sharpening sticks. You know there's good and there's bad, but in my eyes it's just neutral. I often think of a quote there's a quote by Marie Curie that I really like that nothing in life is to be feared, it's simply to be understood, and I think that applies to AI.
John Marble:You know, people say oh well, it'll take our jobs, It'll do this, It'll become our overlords.
John Marble:Well, there's potential for anything everywhere, but look at it neutrally and see what you could develop with it. The same arguments against AI are the same arguments that have been made against every sort of development in technology throughout human history. Ai isn't special in that regard, but what is special is we're sitting at a moment that we can actually consciously think about what the future brings. You know, when we develop the atom bomb or the gun, or the plow or the wheel, people weren't consciously thinking about well, how do we be moral about this? What is this going to look like in 50 years? We're just at that point.
John Marble:We're actually having the ability to have that conversation, and so I think for a lot of people it feels scary because we're having that conversation, but in my mind, I'm like this has been happening throughout history. Nothing is to be feared. It's simply to be understood. We're just talking about this now, so I don't think that's a conversation that people should shy away from. Maybe that's the autistic brain in me that I'm geeking out on that. I'm like well, actually, looking back through history, we've been through this a million times but I'm like, wow, what an opportunity.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):Yeah, in the hands of. I mean, I think this is where, you know, society is going to define whether or not AI is a good or a bad force, whether AI is a force for good or a force for evil. And you know, this is a plug for AI literacy, is a plug for for AI literacy. But you know, if we really want it to be forced for good, we need to make sure that people with the right intentions, um, you know, have a role in shaping it and it's not just happening to them, um, exactly.
John Marble:I mean this coffee teacup. Nobody thought about it when they were first developing coffee cups. I'm sure there's been lots of people injured or even killed with coffee cups by it being used by people, but we also use it to drink this wonderful tea that you got from Osaka. It's like a lovely thing. It's just we're having that conversation now about AI. We're having that conversation now about AI.
John Marble:I think a lot of people get scared of well, is AI going to be a force for good or evil? It's like saying, is this coffee cup going to be a force for good or evil? Nobody set out to build a coffee cup and say, is it going to be a force for good or evil? It's simply going to be. It just happens that now we have AI and we're conscious that we're having this conversation, and so if we're thinking about AI and neurodivergent people, you know the knee jerk reaction of some people might be to, okay, let's build, let's use AI and build it for a neurodivergent population to do this, but we're having the luxury to say, well, hold on, is that the right thing that you want to build for that population? Let's have a larger conversation about it.
John Marble:And again it just goes back to the point that I emphasize is that I may not ever understand all the technology around AI but I'm starting to understand how to use it and how to think about it, and I want to see a lot more people know how to use it and think about it as well.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):So Neurodiversity for Dummies. When did it come out? It came out.
John Marble:March of last year, and then Autism for Dummies is coming out beginning of May, late April, may of this year.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):Okay, so Autism for Dummies. In May We'll include the link to Neurodiversity for dummies in May. We'll include the link to neurodiversity for dummies, uh, in the description, depending on when this video comes out. I think it'll come up.
John Marble:You can pre-order autism for dummies, so feel free to include that link as well.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):We will include that link as well. Um, is there anything you wanted to close with any closing thoughts? For, for folks who are maybe, maybe, for whom this is the first time that they really indulged in, um, a nerdy conversation about neurodiversity like what, what advice would you give somebody if they wanted to go down their own rabbit hole?
John Marble:oh, that is such an open-ended question to ask an autistic person, but I will try for that no, but I mean I I know you well enough that I've already started a former answer around that I you know the point that I make over and over again. It's just how normal neurodiversity is. You know, we understand that certain neurodivergent conditions have been around humans for maybe as long as humanity has existed. It's just now that we're starting to understand them more. But there's nothing inherently bizarre about being autistic or dyslexic or having ADHD. What's bizarre is not really understanding those differences. And I don't mean that as a slam to individual listeners, I just mean that more as a critique of society. And I think that listeners and neurodivergent people ourselves and parents and educators are now starting to become aware of those things.
John Marble:And again I'll make the parallel to AI that not anything inherently to be scared of, it's just to be understood.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):I really would recommend um, even if you don't have anybody, well, even if you think you don't have anybody in your life who's neurodivergent first of all, um, but you know, for me the book just helped provide this, this empathy. For, you know, people are just, they have people tick in different ways, and neurodiversity for dummies is not just for parents of kids who are autistic or neurodivergent. It's really a way of just understanding the people in the world around you, and I feel like it instilled this curiosity in me. It was also interesting to find out that the Spice Girls when the Spice Girls is, autistic Well, not autistic, but I did have that conversation with our previous editor.
John Marble:I said I now realize that I've referenced the Spice Girls twice in this book. Is that okay? It turns out to be true. I talk about Mel B in her, I believe, adhd and then also talk about Victoria Beckham as related to her husband, david Beckham's neurodivergence. But just as an example of a lot of times I show people celebrities in slides when we're presenting to companies and it's not to say, yay, neurodivergent people, but it's to help them realize that there's neurodivergent people everywhere and if they can kind of understand that they're there in pop culture, they start to realize, oh yeah, they might be there in our workplace and our families, you know, and our friend group, because it's incredibly common.
John Marble:We estimated that at least 20% of the human population are neurodivergent. Some people put that as high as 30% or 35%, but 20%. You know North America. You know United States, canada, mexico, all the Central American countries is about 7% of the world population.
John Marble:People with green eyes is about 2% of the population. Left-handed people are about 10%. Neurodivergent people at least 20% of the human population. So that's a lot of humans and it just shows you how common it is. So if I get to use some fun celebrity examples, it's pretty much to hit that point.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):Yeah, there's so much value in looking at, you know, looking at the people around you and you know, wanting to understand more. Oh yeah, who they are, you know, and how they are.
John Marble:And honestly it's a. It's a lesson about neurodiversity that I do, but it's really a lesson for everyone that I tell neurodivergent people that the more that you can understand and accept yourself and your differences, the easier things are going to be. Honestly, that's a lesson that anybody can learn. We, even people who are what we call neurotypical. No two human brains are the same. No two people experience the world in the exact same way. So if you can understand your strengths and your needs and your challenges every human has a challenge, every human has strengths. The more that you can really understand yourself, the better off your life will be. I also like to say maybe I'll end on this that Whitney Houston, in the Greatest Love of All, sings learning to love yourself is easy to achieve, and I'm like that's the only time I've ever disagreed with Whitney Houston.
John Marble:It is a hella hard lesson to learn to accept yourself, but the more that you can accept yourself and realize no, I'm fine, I'm different, and maybe those differences cause conflicts in my life, but at least that's something that you can navigate.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU):John Marble. Thank you so much for coming on.
John Marble:Thanks, Alex.