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Erin Mote: AI literacy is as foundational as reading

• aiEDU: The AI Education Project • Season 1 • Episode 37

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What if AI literacy belonged alongside reading and math as a foundational skill – not tucked inside a computer science elective? That's the case Erin Mote, CEO of InnovateEDU, has been making for years. In this conversation, she gets specific about what it's going to take to actually get there.

We dig into the disappearing entry-level job, why middle school may be more important than people think, and what it looks like to reimagine a system built around schooling into one built around learning. Erin also gets personal – sharing how she talks to her own kids about synthetic content, screen time, and why the box fort taking over her kitchen might be one of the most important learning experiences they're having.

aiEDU: The AI Education Project

AI Literacy As Foundational Skill

SPEAKER_01

I want to make sure that the conversation around AI literacy is about AI as a foundational literacy, not confined just to the tech domains. When we talk about foundational skills, reading and math, the ability to make inferences, the durable skills, I see AI literacy as right among those foundational skills. But I think about our great friends at Gwynette, where we have an Ed Safe AI policy lab, and this idea that they have of, you know, sort of swim, snorkel, scuba, that everybody has to be able to swim to have basic AI literacy. And then maybe you want to dive a little deeper, you can be a snorkeler. And then there's going to be some folks, educators, students, workforce opportunities that are those scuba opportunities where you're just going to have to know about machine learning at a technical level. I want us to be having this conversation about AI literacy as a foundational literacy.

Alex Kotran

So we're here with the virtual uh recording of AI EDU Studios. I'm here in my home office, really my bedroom office. Uh as you can kind of see my bed at the background, ignore that. But I'm here with my good friend, colleague, confidant, and mentor, really, Aaron Moat. Erin Moat is the CEO of Innovate EDU. Uh she's been in the education space for um for a long time. Uh founded a school in New York. Is it in Brooklyn?

SPEAKER_01

It's in Brooklyn, Brooklyn Baby.

Alex Kotran

And it's still there? What's the school?

SPEAKER_01

Uh-huh. Brooklyn Lab Charter School.

Alex Kotran

Brooklyn Lab Charter Schools. Um, and now leads an organization that is really at the epicenter of the intersection of education and K-12 uh and policy. Um and is also the is Brainchild appropriate to call the brainchild of the EdSafe AI committee? I guess you you took EdSafe, the EdSafe AI committee, um, and sort of leveled it up to sort of the like where it is today, which is actually at the epicenter of a lot of these sort of like big policy conversations about both AI literacy and and uh the the future of how AI and real intersect with education.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, that was great.

Alex Kotran

Aaron, why don't you help me fill in some blanks? What else your mom in Arizona?

How ChatGPT Made AI Mainstream

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, of two amazing kids, Robert and Claire, who I talk about all the time. So hard to hard to divorce my identity as mom uh from any of my work. Uh church school founder. Uh I know people feel like I've been in education forever. I feel like I'm still a neophyte, to be honest. Uh, you know, coming from the national security sector before being in education, I feel like I'm still growing up and I'm still a relative neophyte in the space. Um yeah, I mean, I hope uh, you know, I hope when people think of the role that I'm playing in education right now is really about catalyzing uncommon alliances and about bringing people together who have diverse and divergent views politically, but also from their own contextual experiences, rural, urban, tribal, um, particularly around conversations, around technology, policy, and practice. And, you know, it's hard, it's also hard not to uh check my technology and technologist origin. You know, I I uh even though I don't get to code every day anymore, I still vibe code a little bit, actually, uh sometimes. And now that my son's into it, uh, we're doing a lot side by side. But maker, builder, entrepreneur, that's how I would think about myself.

Alex Kotran

I mean, I remember you and I had met and talked about artificial intelligence way before Chat GPT was released. Yeah. And and I think I think you're you're sort of part of a small community of folks who had been sort of thinking about um I mean, I guess we called it AI, but it was really machine learning. Like can you can you talk about sort of that that moment that sort of like it was November 30, 2022? Um, but what was that like for sort of this this topic that you had been sort of in and like really thinking hard about to kind of just go mainstream almost overnight?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, I will say that like I think machine learning AI is something that, you know, since I have been working in technology for 20 plus years, has been actually like part of the conversation. I mean, into like the, you know, I think about like 2004, 2006, you know, there there were elements of machine learning, frankly, because I did a lot of work on like data and broadband, that, you know, machine learning, artificial intelligence was already being used, but really accelerated into a general purpose technology with the launch of ChatGPT, I think it was still pretty, you know, the purview of technologists, the purview of researchers, uh, probably before like 2016, I would say. And then in 2016, 2017, 2018, I really saw accelerating, particularly in ed tech. And then so with a group of folks like Jim Larimore and Dale Allen and uh Kelly, who's now at G Solon, and and um, you know, folks who are in the space and still in the EdSafe AI Alliance, we actually launched the Ed Safe AI Alliance. I'll never forget this, like the weird in-between COVID GSV in 2020. Um, and so like people, I think, were like, what is this? Like, why are they launching this alliance? Why are they thinking about artificial intelligence in 2020? Um, but I think, you know, that there was a lot of foresight among um those folks and and among a bunch of folks who were watching what was happening in education, watching what was happening with machine learning and artificial intelligence and personalization, and who said, This is a place, particularly around minor data, particularly in the education use case, where we need to have some guardrails and guidelines in place. People like Beth Havenga, um, who leads so much of the work in the EU now. Um, and so that's a, I think really that time in 2020, uh, you know, a group of us said, gosh, we gotta get our stuff together as a sector. We gotta put a stake in the ground and we gotta start um having conversations, particularly about the intersection of AI and the education use case.

Alex Kotran

Yeah, it's like, I mean, I'd say it was really the receipts. Um, because I mean 2020 was what the years before this went mainstream. And now, and now it is, it's it is a big happy tent, mostly happy, I think, um, of course.

SPEAKER_01

I hope mostly happy.

Alex Kotran

I think I think it's I think people are I I think people are excited. I think there's one of the things that we were talking about before um we hit record was this this shift in uh the conversation away from just the opportunities that AI is going to pose, but also this understanding of the the the real world impacts are starting to be become a little bit more tangible. And you talked about sort of like the the unemployment rate among new college grads being one of them. Um but I mean I think there's just a lot of folks now who are having the conversation about what this means for education. Um what do you see as sort of like the the most common entry point for folks who maybe don't consider themselves technologists, but where you kind of see whether it's school leaders or policymakers, like how are they kind of like making the connection that like, okay, AI is actually going to be a really big deal for education?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, I I think the thing that I'm seeing more and more is actually educators. And I would say like school district leaders using AI in what I would consider like administrative tasks, lesson planning, and just the growth, I think, um, of that within the last year is pretty phenomenal. Um, I think there are uh there's still a large section of educators, you know, about 40% who aren't using it day to day or aren't using it once a week. But to see now, you know, 60% of educators saying that they're using it every week for lesson planning or administrative tasks, um, that's pretty phenomenal growth, I think, from again, thinking in that way back machine from 2000 or um, you know, from the launch of GPT. I I think for, I think the entry point looks different for a lot of of different audiences, right? I think um for parents, I think there are entry points around like tutoring and um entry and and fear around things like cheating or um misinformation. I think the same for educators. There's like the the balance between promise and peril always for every audience, right? The promise of what this could do, save time, make education more personalized, the peril, particularly around data security and safety, and how is my data or my child's data or uh my students' data being used? I think educators are well trained to be stewards of young people's data and to ask those questions. So um and on policymakers, you know, I think it really um depends what level of policymaking um you're at. I think the the thing that I will name in the last 12 months is um I used to have conversations about whether or not schools, districts, and the federal government was gonna do something. That's not the conversation I'm having now. I think the conversation now is what are we going to do? What is the next step? It's it's sort of like we're out of paralysis and maybe more into analysis and action. Um, and so that I think is also a pretty deep and fast acceleration of change.

Data Interoperability Without The Jargon

Alex Kotran

Yeah, I mean, uh I think this tension that you mentioned about um like sort of the excitement and concern. I think it lives across every different sort of user and audience. Because you know you mentioned like parents. So obviously, yeah, like cheating is a concern, but then also you know, maybe for the first time you can actually help your student with their biology homework. Um I think that that tension is kind of interesting. And one of the things that you've been really pushing for years has been sort of like data interoperability. I and I've heard you talk about this, and there's reasons across both the like opportunity space, but also the threat space why that's important. And I'm just curious, like even for me, data interoperability feels a bit opaque uh to break through. Like, how how do you sort of explain this to um you know, a school leader, someone who doesn't necessarily consider themselves uh technology forward and yet is still in the seat of where they need to be able to help sort of problem solve these challenges?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I always I mean when I'm trying to explain something that is a technical concept, and data interoperability is a technical concept, right? It's the secure, seamless operation and movement of data across systems. Uh, even that definition, people are like, oh, that feels like really unapproachable. Um and so, you know, it's this concept of being able to take data from different systems and bring it together to give a full picture. And so whenever I talk to folks, whether I'm talking to technical folks or non-technical folks about in the policy space or in the practice space or in the CIO CTO, I always really like anchor it in a use case. And imagine what it would be like to be able to deeply understand why a student, for example, is chronically absent. It and on what days are they chronically absent, and how is that related to their schedule? And how is that related to maybe their um, you know, the some pattern that you're able to see? What data interoperability allows you to do is to bring that data together to ask important questions about the why. And so um I always sort of anchor that work in a student use case and a student experience or an educator experience. I mean, I think uh we ask educators all the time to um, particularly as students get older and transit through multiple classes, how do you bring the information together about a young person so that the science teacher can understand that that young person is passionate about Greek mythology in the literature class and use that in order to unlock maybe more passion for learning in uh that science class? So, and I think that's actually what's going to be incredibly important about education moving forward. You know, I'm working on a writing piece about deconstruction and reconceptualization around personalization. It's a deeply reflective piece, not just about um, you know, what I have thought over my still neophyte years in education, just over a decade. But um, you know, what things do I have to let go of or reconceptualize so that the education um of today rapidly meets the needs of young people. And I think that's the thing that we're missing right now in education and as a sector is those hard conversations about what needs to shift and change in order for education, frankly, to be more relevant to today's young people and today's jobs and uh and frankly, what what's going to happen in our economy, not over the next 10 years, but over the next two, three, or four.

Early Career Jobs Are Disappearing

Alex Kotran

So I actually want to come back to this because what what you described, sort of the personalization of learning, you know, being able to track a student's interests, these are things that I think to some folks in the audience might um might seem obvious, like obvious. It's like, sure, should of course we should be tracking, you know, our students' interests and finding ways or making it easy for teachers to connect those interests to what they're learning. It's not necessarily happening uh everywhere. Maybe even in most places it's not necessarily happening, and there's reasons for that. And um, but before we kind of because it I at the risk of getting too nerdy, and I want to get nerdy, um, I it's worth maybe stepping back and like I I do want to sort of talk about the the why. Um, because you mentioned like 40% of teachers or educators haven't even necessarily uh spent time learning about AI or using it themselves. Um and understandably, you know, like technology is not necessarily something that everybody sort of leans forward into. You know, I I've experimented with different ways of this conversation, like how do I sort of expark that interest? Yeah. I think there's like maybe a little bit of uh an opportunity for I don't I don't think fear is the right word for it, but I think um getting people's attention and and so this this so one thing that you mentioned is sort of the youth then the unemployment rate among new college grads. Yeah. Which just tell me more about that. Why, why are you paying attention to it and why is it something that people should be, you know, potentially talking about paying attention to themselves?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think it is starting to break through into the mainstream. I mean, I just was look, I was um doing some weekend reading in the Wall Street Journal. There was a uh there's been some great coverage um around labor trends there. I mean, I think we have to have a conversation about how we have built a schooling system, not a learning system, uh, with a finite set of pathways for young people towards a career ladder where the couple first couple rungs look like they're going out of it, kind of no matter what field that you're in. So if you're like me, a technologist in software, you know, you those those entry-level rungs in software and software engineering now are disappearing with AI. Um, and the skills that you need to be successful and the types of jobs that are, you know, being that are still open in technology and software are like more to a scrum master project management role, which only happens when you have experience and have and have had the experience of working on a team. And so folks are losing some of those experiential um formative early career opportunities, which allow them to again progress up that career ladder. Again, that's still pretty linear. Um, but I think it's important to say that we still um we still do jobs in that way, um, whether it's how we describe the years of experience you need in uh job postings or required skills, I think that is part of it. And part of that is because some of those skills, competencies, and dispositions are being displaced by um AI. And so the things that I think we, and we're seeing that right across the board. And I um I think the other thing we need to reflect on is so what skills are employers hiring for? And those tend to be things like working in multiplifunctional teams, managing through conflict, um skills that are about managing AI and working alongside AI, um, not AI doing your job. And so so much of I think what I talk to when I talk to fellow parents who ask me about this, because you know, um, when I'm sitting with Claire's uh softball team parents, they're like, tell me about this AI thing. Like, are our kids gonna have jobs, Aaron? And, you know, I talk about the fact that, like, yes, they're gonna look different. Uh, and I uh talk a lot about how uh the thing that I'm doing as a parent right now is having conversations with my kids, seven and ten, about how to use AI alongside the work that they're doing for school or to build a passion-driven project that they're working on. Or Robert's really into this thing called Crunch Labs. Um, and so it's all about like real life engineering projects and so how to use AI as part of the passion-driven experiences that you're thinking about. But I do think we have to have really hard conversations about the system we've built, what it's built for, um, and why we're having this wide divergence. And so um, AI is really disruptive in education because it is it is trained and built on the same things that we are training and building our assessment models on. And so it's no wonder that if we continue to measure uh knowledge with a standardized test, um, that AI is always going to beat that test.

Alex Kotran

The impact of AI education is sort of like I think most people kind of assume okay, like the technology is impacting maybe student learning and making it easier to cheat. And so that's kind of where their initial assumptions go. But you're actually describing the very basis of the like the post-secondary pathways are now being challenged because I think the interesting thing about computer science, and you you're talking about vibe coding, and I've been talking to a lot of folks who have vibe coded, and you know, I don't think that the I've I haven't heard anybody say that we're not gonna need software engineers anymore, that like companies aren't gonna need to hire. There's actually, I think, a pretty wide gamut of arguments about what's gonna happen to the future of CS jobs. Um, but I think the one thing that's consistent across not just computer science, but really almost any field where someone has actually spent some time using the tools is like the type of stuff that you do in your first one to three years in a job are the things that AI is really good at, right? Like like just turning out lines of code or just reviewing a bunch of like legal contracts or just like writing first drafts of press releases or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01

Social media, yeah.

Alex Kotran

Social media, yeah. I mean, like there's legal, and I mean basically almost anything where you're just sitting in front of a computer all day. I mean, that's kind of my heuristic is like if you're just sitting in front of a computer, it kind of doesn't matter what you're doing. Um, if you're not in meetings, if you're not sort of like project managing, if you're not sort of doing these like sort of you taught to sort of like interdisciplinary um like problem solving skills. Um so so you actually took a stab because I was gonna ask you like sort of what is the advice that you give parents? You gave something you did something very actionable, which is describe something that you're doing with your kids, uh giving them the opportunity to actually use technology to work on projects that they're passionate about. I've been asking a lot of my guests this, and and I haven't actually landed on a single pithy, satisfying answer because I don't think there is one, right? I think it really depends. It's like, how do you have a conversation with your with your with your child? It's I think it's easier if your your child has like a very specific interest area, right? So like if you're if your kid is um, you know, a Jared, a chung, a career village, you know, his kid loves Minecraft, and so they spent a lot of time, you know, like building stuff in Minecraft, and that's kind of creates sort of that opening. Have you ever talked to a parent who where their kids just haven't quite figured out that career connection yet? You know, they're passionate about maybe it's you know, marching band or um, you know, just like hanging out with their friends, but they haven't, you know, necessarily started working on engineering projects or um, you know, let's say design. What are some of the ways that parents can maybe, uh whether it's using AI or just thinking about the role that AI is going to play, kind of guide their students towards some of these, what you're describing as these like multifaceted opportunities to sort of like build these skills.

Parenting Tech Talks At Home

SPEAKER_01

Um Yeah, thanks. I mean, I I think it's funny because I have this conversation all the time about uh how as a parent I make choices about technology in my own household. And um, you know, like I play games alongside my kids. So people are like, all screen time is bad. It's not. Um, especially like when you can uh integrate like a social aspect of it, right? The human aspect of screen time. And so I don't think it just has to be AI. I think it can be like Minecraft, roadblocks, um, carefully moderated social connections. Over the pandemic, I watched uh Robert, uh, he asked me for a Discord server when he was like seven. So he could talk with his, I said no, but uh he asked me for a Discord server because he was basically um on FaceTime playing with his friends, uh Minecraft or Roblox at the same time. So they were literally FaceTime playing each other in the game. And so these like hybrid social environments, how do you um also have conversations with your children about technology? I think the thing we didn't do um well, um, all parents or education sector as a whole, um, and I think the education sector owns some of this, is have conversations with young people when social media came about. And so as a parent, I'm making really deliberate choices about um at least talking about the technology, how the technology makes you feel, when it's the right use of technology, when it's not, when it expands your knowledge, um, that type of thing. And so, you know, I I don't actually think you have to find you have to like go to your kids with a hook. I think the thing I would say is incumbent around all parents is to start the conversation and give them the opportunity to experiment. And that could even be like going to your local science center, um, many of whom have AI and tech exhibits right now. I think about our good friend Katrina Stevens over at the Tech Interactive in San Jose or our children's museum here or the science center here, um, really like having those conversations. And it's actually so funny you asked me about this because like three days ago, I was driving uh with Robert to the post office uh to drop off some packages together. And he looked at me uh as I was driving and he was like, uh, mom, I think we should write a book together around how parents uh should talk to their kids about technology and AI. And I laughed. And then he's like, uh it would, it would help people understand like that uh technology isn't always bad uh or good. And it's like, and how you have to think about it. And I so now I'm like, maybe I should write a children's book with my 10-year-old about uh my AI robot, which is his current working title, just so we're clear.

Spotting Synthetic Media Together

Alex Kotran

Yeah. Um yeah, and and what I'm hearing is just like being able to like have like display genuine interest in what they're what they're passionate about. And and you're right. I think, I mean, thinking about my parents, there was this almost sort of like a wall between like my online life and my parents. And I think there was almost like a hesitance for them to kind of get involved. But you mentioned like social media as sort of a place where not all, but I think a lot of parents will admit that they didn't quite get it right, and we're paying the the the the we're seeing the consequences of that of like you know, like massive increases in loneliness and you know self-harm and and depression among especially young girls, but really like like all young people are are struggling with this. And now we have AI, which is coming in creating you know, making creating synthetic content almost turnkey now. Um and and maybe your kids are like they're I I wouldn't say they're too young because I actually worry that um we don't really have a sense of where these this type of synthetic content is percolating. And I don't I don't actually know if like every platform has been able to totally block I mean I even find myself, I don't know about you, but like do you ever come across content on you're like scrolling social media platform of choice, and have you ever like looked at something and you're just like, wait, actually is this AI?

SPEAKER_01

And like I totally totally um my kids are really into like uh wildlife videos right now as we just return from being in the Kruger. Um and they are really into watching videos of like a leopard tangling with a porcupine. And like so they're super into that. And um and I'm always sometimes I'm like, is this real? Like, is this like is this con synthetic, is this synthetic content about animals in the wild, or is this real content? And um that feels like maybe a little innocuous to people who are listening. Like, who cares if if animal content is is real or fake? But uh, how do I help my uh kids discern? Um, or even just ask the question like, is that really a leopard fighting a porcupine? Um, you know, and is that possible? Um answer is it was real, but it was real, okay.

Alex Kotran

Because I've seen I've seen some fake, I've seen some fake animal content that's extremely convincing.

SPEAKER_01

Extremely convincing. There was another one with some bamboons, and and I think it was a lion or a leopard, I don't even remember. Totally fake, but like I had to I had to turn on the synthetic content detector to figure that out.

Alex Kotran

Cause it because it seems like uh almost like a fun activity to have with because I've been doing this with my mom because she's sent me like pictures of cute animals, yeah. Almost like this is a learning moment for my parents who are definitely going to be the victims of you know scammers and I worry about that for kids, but I almost wonder like, have you been able to kind of create almost like uh I don't know what to say gamify? Um, but has there been this opportunity to say, like, you see something cool, like how do you almost like practice some sort of critical thinking skills, almost like be critical consumers? And that's something that I've heard you talk about via EdSafe AI. I'm curious, like, how you've been sort of bringing that to life with your own interactions with your kids.

Box Forts Teach Durable Skills

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, I uh I do think that is like among the most important skills is we have to have young people who are willing to interrogate both the inputs and the outputs of AI. And that's whether you call that being a critical consumer of information or a critical consumer about the tool, I think it it goes beyond things like synthetic content. It goes to like, how is this made? What type of data was used, those types of things. I think um, you know, it's a really different conversation with my seven-year-old than it is with my 10-year-old. And and frankly, that's because I would say, like, Robert, my son, is super into technology. He builds game, like, he builds games that his friends play. He has been using AI for design, like mid-journey and other things for a book report. Um, we can talk about whether or not he almost got kicked out of school for doing that. Uh, that's another day, another podcast, maybe. But um, you know, it's a really different conversation also with a 10-year-old than it is with a seven-year-old, because I think there's different ways to think about developmentally appropriate. But even introducing the concept that a video could not be real to my seven-year-old is is like, is a different, is a conversation. Robert is already a critic. He already believes that some of it, um, because of his fluency is not real because he's created images himself that aren't real. He's had the experience of generating those images himself, right? Claire, it's like a very different um developmental thing. We're just introducing the fact that this, that something you see, right, might not be real is the conversation I'm having with her versus a really different conversation with Robert. But I think it is about um, you know, making sure that there is a connection to real life reference experiences to help them navigate that. And so, you know, I I think that um something I struggle with as a working mom. I think all parents struggle with this right now is this question around how much screen time is the right amount of screen time um, you know, for your kids. And so uh we have we have some definite rules in our house and uh, you know, and we have definite conversations about when it's been enough for the day um and what we're using it for. But um, you know, my entire kitchen right now is taken over by a box fort that I I literally can't around. Um so uh I think I think we are every day navigating this conversation and trying to find that balance between what are the authentic building learning and anchor experiences that they're having, and how does technology intersect with that anchor experience?

Alex Kotran

I I I think this like box for it is such a it's it's a almost a beautiful depiction of where more folks who are maybe on the outside of this like AI conversation peering in, and their assumption is that and we and we even like even when we talk about AI literacy, this is because this comes up, but there's this assumption that like being ready for the age of AI is all about being like a super user of AI. And and the box for it is sort of a visual depiction of like one of the most important things, and I really believe this, like one of the most important things about thriving in the world where AI is is ubiquitous, is actually like really being intentional about building those those human attributes and experience, those human attributes that can only be built with like human experience. Yeah. With like the process of cutting up the cardboard and taping it together and sort of like the geospatial reasoning that comes together. And like what I didn't hear is like, oh, let me just like ask Chat GPT how to create the box fort. It's like, no, you what is your idea for the box fort?

SPEAKER_01

Um yeah, and two other things there that I would add on the box fort as I've like watched the box fort be built over the last two weeks. One, uh dealing with when the box fort breaks or there's failure in your design. What do you do? Is it more duct tape? Is it duct tape versus packing tape? Is it the box fort is too dark uh now that it is four rooms? Um we have to cut some windows. Um, it's the problem-solving piece. It's like how you react to failure or the unexpected or what you didn't anticipate. And then the second thing that I think is really important is that Robert and Claire are building their box fort uh with uh Sierra, who's a big part of our family and comes in and helps me out as part of our childcare team. And so they needed to find a big enough box for Sierra, who's just graduated from ASU, uh, to make sure that their human relationship was anchored in the box fort. And now it's a negotiation with mom and dad, because the box fort has grown. Literally, I can't yesterday I had to like ask my husband, Eric, to help me move the box fort so I could get to the garage. Uh, so it's also like negotiating space, human relationships, and interactions. So it's not just about like building and engineering and making, but it's like the human aspects of the relationship there and the problem solving and what happens when something doesn't work the way you anticipate it. Those skills are the skills that when we talk about the scrum master skills, when we talk about the things that employers are looking for, those are the things we need to be cultivating learning experiences for young people. And, you know, this idea that we built this schooling system, which is about a little bit that like what you described as like sitting in front of a computer or sitting in front of a classroom in that first three years of your job, right? Analogy there. And are we building a learning system with experiences and opportunities for failure and opportunities to work with people who are different, divergent, or be exposed to different views? And I think if we really um want to meet this moment, we have to have a pretty foundational and fundamental um conversation in our space and frankly in a larger society around the purpose of education.

Alex Kotran

Yes. Yeah, and and this brings us to like the the the macro question of what does it look like for for schools to be centering box fort-like learning experiences, right? Because I I so I want to talk about AI literacy. This is um, you know, without bearing the lead, like our organizations have been really at the forefront. I would say I think that's accurate to say at the forefront. Uh and and when I say our organizations, you know, AI EDU, Innovate EDU, Ed Safe AI, and several dozen other organizations, right, that we've been collaborating with. So this is not there is really no one organization, nor should there be, right? Like championing this this sort of path into the future for kids. But but we've been at the center of it, and a lot of that comes down to thinking about what does it mean to be what does AI literacy actually mean? And um I I actually have open on my other screen this blueprint for action that um that we sort of helped put together, I guess it was like almost what six weeks ago now in Washington, DC. Um it's been very cool to see this, the the language in this document start to kind of percolate in certain places, uh, places that matter. Aaron, why do you think that focusing on learning experience is like the very first bullet in that blueprint?

Neuroplasticity And Personalized Learning

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think the most important thing that we can be uh bringing forward in education right now is what we already know about learning, which is we actually know quite a bit and and not just the types of learning experiences that set young people up for success as humans, uh, who can in, you know, who can respond to failure, but also I think we know quite a bit more about neurological development, brain development, and about the science of learning and development, just one um domain within the learning sciences. And and that evolution has actually really happened over the last 20 years, you know. And I'm gonna go back to my experience founding a school in Brooklyn. So we founded Brooklyn Lab in 2014. And, you know, um, I would be disingenuous if I didn't say people thought we were crazy to start at sixth grade. They said to us um when Eric and I said we're gonna we're gonna build a middle school, are you insane? Like you will have no control of the prior learning experiences. Why would you start at the sixth grade? Kids who don't read um by third grade are already on this trajectory to failure, all these adages, right? About why, particularly for the students we wanted to serve, students with disabilities, juvenile justice-involved students, and homeless students, and students who were significantly behind grade level, that we were damning ourselves to closure within the first couple years. And um the reality was that like starting a sixth grade was really hard because there would be young people who would come to us um and they were, they weren't even able to be measured on the NWEA assessment, which is a common uh kind of leveling assessment that happens in education. And they we couldn't even measure their reading level because they were below kindergarten. And so, and they were sixth graders. They were, they were students who were entering the sixth grade. And the reality was people thought we were crazy. But um, you know, uh my husband, uh, who is my co-founder, is a psychometrician and uh knows a lot about and the learning scientists, uh, sciences. He's one of the leading experts in the world on assessment. And he um understood a body of work around neuroplasticity. I'm gonna get there. Just give me a second.

Alex Kotran

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_01

There are two times, maybe three for women, and I'll I'll tell you the third one for women, which is good news for me. Um, but there are two times in your life when you are incredibly neuroplastic, meaning you learn and absorb at rates that are um sort of beyond any other time. And it's when you are sort of birth zero to two. So just think about it how much an infant forms relationships, learns to walk, learns language, learns to eat, so on and so forth. That is an enormous amount of neuroplasticity. And then there's another immense um level of neuroplasticity, and it's when kids hit puberty. So it's when they're uh, you know, kind of depending on what what range they're at, it can be 10 to 13, right? And we have had all these conceptions that, like, if kids can't read by the third grade, by the fourth grade, you can't turn the tide, you can't turn the ship around. And we certainly need to continue to focus on um early literacy. But there's also a way that given the brain sciences and what we now know about neuroplasticity, that even targeted intervention in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth grade can literally um change the trajectory of a young person's life. And so why personalization is so, so important and why, you know, when people were really critical and continue to be critical of me for my desire to see heavy level personalization for all students, um, I'm gonna keep uh banging this pan, shouting from the rooftops that I know this is what kids need from my time at Brooklyn Lab, but also as a mom, that we need to have more personalized learning for young people. And so neuroplasticity, right? Like learning experiences that generate that neuroplasticity. How do we design learning experiences that go beyond sort of rote scope and sequence and design for the ability to have flexibility in the learning space? And the the fact of the matter is uh all learners are jagged learners. No one's the average across the board. And yet we design learning experiences that are built to the average. And that is why, among many other reasons, I think we um are failing young people right now in education. Makes sense?

Alex Kotran

No, no, it makes sense, and you're describing something that is like you're talking about the way that learning needs to evolve, not just uh what we need to do to change school specifically. It's like this convergence of like AI readiness and AI literacy and also just the future of education. Um that there's the good news is these are now these these are these are one in the same, and so we can focus on sort of a discrete set of changes that need to happen, they're really hard. So, I mean, Aaron, what you're describing is is is to some educators, to some parents, this will not sound new. You're you're talking about making learning more relevant, you know, centering student experience and agency in learning. You talked about absenteeism as one of like the things that superintendents really care about. These feel very connected. Students not feeling like that's not the only reason, right? Driving absenteeism to be clear, but it is one of them, right?

SPEAKER_01

Like, well, like maybe late class is a huge reason, yeah.

Rebuilding Schooling Into Learning Systems

Alex Kotran

Yeah, I mean, simultaneously, maybe exciting that this could that AI could be sort of like the the moment for school transformation to become. Yeah, I've been talking about this as it's like it's a kitchen table issue in a way that it wasn't before, school transformation specifically, because like AI is something that everybody is now talking about. It's you know, plastering the news. What does it look like to sort of harness this moment to actually do meaningful change in education? Like what needs to happen and and who needs to be a part of that?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I mean, I think it is a kitchen table issue. So the answer to the who needs to be a part of it is um is everyone. I think it can't just be led by folks who um are sitting in windowless conference rooms in Washington, D.C. or your state capitol or your uh local district office. I mean, it really is a an uh a potential reordering of a system that we've built, schooling to be learning, right? And and I I've been thinking about this a lot. You know, like what are the things that we hold on or we've designed around, and whether that's like the batching of kids by age, right? Like grade levels, the compliance focus of so much of our education system, set schedule, set location, set curriculum in some ways. But we want curriculum to be high quality too. So, how do we find that balance? Teachers as like the transfer of knowledge rather than um teachers as more of like coach and mentor. And so I think if if I were to describe the thing I want, it's that AI offers us a moment to make an education a more humanistic experience, a more um multidisciplinary experience, a more interdisciplinary experience, an interoperable experience, if you will, for young people. And so, how do we move from like batching by grade level and age to like individuality? How do we think about moving from compliance to age and How do we think about teachers instead of being sort of knowledge transfers really focusing on skill development? How do we think about the system itself really not just going to known endpoints, right? All students must go to college to much more sort of flexible, emergent possibilities. And, you know, this is a it's a humbling moment for someone like me who um I think built a school around some of those old constructs, right? Some new, but some old. And I think what I've come to realize is, you know, I'm not sure that we're at a place where, and I think actually young people are demanding that we don't try to retrofit this new technology on top of a broken system. And that I think is is really, really important. And those are hard conversations to have because we have to deconstruct things that we've held on to and then come to new first principles about what is the future of learning and what do we hope for it. And we have to acknowledge something that I think as an education sector and as a society, we really realized during COVID in a very acute way that education is also childcare for the vast majority of families in this country. And so that set location, set routine, set time really matters for women to be in the workforce or for folks to be able to afford to go to work. Um and so those are those are hard conversations because they're not just education conversations. They're workforce conversations, they're social conversations, they're relationship conversations. Does that make sense?

Alex Kotran

It makes sense. And and even though it's really like it's like the the inertia of the education sector is so sick, like it's it's just so massive. Um, and I think you know, you talk to a superintendent, you talk to a teacher, it feels really in almost intractable to steer the the tanker ship. But I I I think I have yet to meet a superintendent or a building principal or teacher that is like I love you know, assessments. I love the way that we're doing assessments. I think that multiple choice tests are just like I just it's the best part of my day. Like I like there is actually this shared desire to change the system. I think there's there's just this sense of exasperation of like, well, this is just really hard.

SPEAKER_01

It is really hard. I mean, as somebody who like, you know, realized in our first year at Brooklyn Lab that we needed to take laptops away from our kids who were doing like story math and math concepts and roll out pencil and paper because if they didn't show their work on the state exam, they were going to get knocked down. Um, like literally, we had to check the tech. Not for anything other than the yardstick by which we were being being measured, if we could keep our doors open, meant our students had to demonstrate some level of proficiency and growing proficiency on the the state exam. So even though they could explain complex mathematical concepts and apply them across disciplines, they also had to show their work, pencil and paper. And so we would literally like move to a set of like simulated practice tests that were like the worst days at the school. Like literally we would have to plan purposeful joy after we did mock exams, like pep rallies, donuts for lunch, like those types of like literally purposeful joy. Um because because it wasn't the spirit of our school, and yet the yardstick that we were being held up against and whether or not we could continue to serve students was only measured by assessments.

Alex Kotran

I mean, I remember like the Ohio graduation test OGT. Um I remember my teachers being so stressed.

SPEAKER_01

So stressed.

What College Must Change Now

Alex Kotran

Like almost like more stressed than the kids. Yeah. Um in retrospect, I understand now. Cause what you're describing is basically, you know, using sort of the the stick as the incentive. Um and like the way that those incentives totally morph school experience for kids. Um we sort of opened up with this sort of like discussion about the future of college. I mean, like the there's all these a lot of vocational pathways in college are starting to to show signs of um life. Uh well, well, well, certain certain vocations, right, are signs of life. So like like the trades. We were just talking to a friend about this. Uh the real advice if you're a parent and you're like, what should my kid do? And the answer is like, well, if you're really focused on salary and earning potential and like resilience to, let's say, automation, it's probably, I mean, what I've said is literally like, I think like carpenter, electrician, plumber, locksmith, maybe not locksmith as much, but HVAC. HVAC, um, roofer. How does what does college do you think what do you think what college college will look like in a world where it's not so straightforward as let me go and get my CS degree or my accounting degree, graduate, get a job, learn on the job for a couple of years until I can really start to have more ex more responsibility. Are we is this like bl is this more like Liver Arts where everybody's kind of getting this sort of general education and getting more hands-on experience?

SPEAKER_01

Like, yeah, I think you're gonna have to be able to cross like you have to. I think about when I think about the future of sort of education and higher ed, first of all, like the future is now if you look at how many parents are contributing to 529s, we just saw the largest precipitous decline in 529 contributions.

Alex Kotran

Uh that almost 529 for 529, sorry.

SPEAKER_01

529s are accounts that you can tuck money away for college later on and therefore parental savings for college. And so we're seeing those rates decline in a massive way. We're seeing young people, you know, for the first time saying, I'm not sure I'm going to college. And so I think the question is how will higher education now remake the experience that folks find valuable? And I think it is about how do you create, you know, the real world experiences? How do you bring in uh knowledge of what's happening in the workforce much closer to the curriculum and the syllabus and to what's being taught in college classes? How do you scaffold um experiences, frankly, like in the community or to service in your community? So I love some of the work that's happening in Colorado and Texas, um, where higher education is both becoming more um responsive to what the ROI is when you leave for young people, but also what types of experiences that are not just work-informed, but are also service-informed and making sure that young people can get credit for that in work study or in uh college curriculum. I think it's also like, how do you move from the goal of education just being about mastery of a subject and completion, you know, to really being about like, are you capable in this domain? Are you capable in multiple domains? Can you connect domain knowledge across, right? Like, um are you able to become conversant not just in one topic, but are you be are you able to become can a generalist, maybe more than a specialist anymore? Ultimate goal is like, are you capable of doing something? Are you capable of using that knowledge to solve a problem, to build something new, to perform a complex task? And the reality is that those are all things AI can't do right now and and won't be able to do well for a very long time.

Alex Kotran

And this is like, I think the blueprint reflects, you know, there's a like a much bigger role for the Department of Labor that we're seeing in this administration. Um, and this is something that that our organizations have really called out, called for, and also just like strengthening career and technology education. Talked about sort of like how do we connect the ROI and like even calling out the still role of like local and state workforce boards to include those skills training in their strategic plans, which is actually getting into an almost like a separate category of like mid-career transition.

Swim Snorkel Scuba AI Literacy

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, upskilling conversation, the reskilling, upskilling. I mean, this is the thing though, which I like worry about all the time is that like I want to make sure that the conversation around AI literacy is about AI as a foundational literacy, not confined just to the tech domains. Um, and I think that is a really important foundational and fundamental point that when we talk about foundational skills, reading and math, the ability to make inferences, the durable skills, I see AI literacy as right among those foundational skills that it will be in all learning domains. Um, and that uh we really need to break it free, potentially, from just a conversation about computer science or data science or those skills. It's incumbent in those skills, it's incumbent in the digital literacy. But I think about our great friends at Gwynette, where we have an Ed Safe AI policy lab and this idea that they have of, you know, sort of swim, uh snorkel, scuba, that everybody has to be able to swim for AI literacy. You have to be able to have basic AI literacy. And then maybe you want to dive a little deeper, you can be a snorkeler. And then there's gonna be some folks, educators, students, workforce opportunities that are that are the scuba opportunities where you're just gonna have to know about, you know, machine learning and at a at a technical level. But I think one of the things I think that is incredibly clear to me is I want us to be having this conversation about AI as literacy as a foundational literacy.

Alex Kotran

It feels like a generational moment. I mean, like it feels kind of like the first time you know people are getting computers. You know, I remember like going into computer lab. I I saw someone like I saw a headline. I actually never got the chance to read the entire uh article, but the you know, the thrust of it really really resonated with me is like we need to bring back the computer lab.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

Reading List And Final Takeaways

Alex Kotran

Like this place where like every single kid is just spending some time like learning about how to I mean, I remember the first time I like learned how to browse the internet. And that wasn't relegated to a class. It wasn't like, oh, you need to browse the internet if you want to work in technology fields. It's like, again, like plumbers are you like if you're not using the internet and you're a plumber, I don't know how you're managing your clients and you know, getting you you know, just sort of dealing with your scheduling. So we're almost at time. What would you I mean, this is this has been awesome. Um, what what would you want to like leave folks with? I mean, for for someone who's been listening and they're they're kind of interested in learning more, what what's what's coming up? What are you paying attention to? What are you reading? Like just feeding somebody's curiosity and kind of helping them along this learning journey. What like what do you think should be next for for that average listener that's like, okay, what else do I want to know?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, I will say if folks listen to one uh thing coming out of this conversation, I think the thing that I listened to four or five times over the last couple months was a conversation between Ezra Klein and Rebecca Winthrop from Brookings on the future and purpose of education. And that podcast, I would I would give that a listen because I think uh it's about AI and technology, but it's a lot about the conversation we've had about schooling and learning, about the shifts and about some of the wrestling I think that folks are doing, both as parents and as educators, but also um how to like meet this moment. I think the other thing is, you know, there's a lot of talk about AI and there's a lot of talk about tech. And, you know, I think I've said this for 10 years, and I'm I'm gonna keep saying it, that I think education is fundamentally a human enterprise. It's sort of what separates us as humans who are evolving and constantly kind of moving. And so it's really important, I think, for listeners to hear that. I don't think you or I or um frankly anyone is saying AI can replace a great teacher or replace the educator in education. And that, you know, my hope is that this technology like profoundly sort of liberates us to do the human work in education, um, that machines can't do, the ability to mentor, to inspire, to challenge and to sort of nurture the passion that I talked about with Robert and Claire and sort of the emotional intelligence that's gonna be needed. And so when when I think about what I'm read, I read a lot. Um I think you know that about me. I listen to a lot. Um, you know, and I, and the other thing I would encourage folks to do is um I read a lot of divergent thinkers from maybe my own uh space. So uh I would encourage folks not just who are AI enthusiasts to read uh the things that are AI positive, but to uh get a holistic sort of picture of the promise and peril of this technology. Because it's certainly um, I believe it is an arrival technology. I believe it will reorder the way we live, we work, we learn, but it's not without significant risk. And so um without sort of uh telling folks uh who to read, I will say that one of the things that I try to do is I try to read not just to the convergence of my own opinion, but to the divergence um of my opinion as well.

Alex Kotran

Here, here. Heron Moat. Thank you for joining.

SPEAKER_01

Thanks.

Alex Kotran

I'll see you soon, I'm sure. I whether I'm not sure if that's gonna be in in DC or New York. But um until then, uh yeah, thanks again for for bringing us on this idea of sitting with divergence. That's sort of like a common thread for I think any any school leader or any parent. There's just there's not one absolutism about what's what's about to happen. And being comfortable with that also means understanding it. Um that was really well put.

SPEAKER_01

And I think being ready for the uncertainty. So uh, but I am certain we will see each other soon. And uh what a pleasure it's been to just sit with you this afternoon.