Coastal Theology
Coastal Theology - Faith, Learning, and Creativity at the Edge of the Pacific
Welcome to Coastal Theology, a podcast from the Vancouver Island School of Theology and the Arts. Each episode invites you to join us in thoughtful conversations on faith, art, and Christian learning — shaped by the coastal rhythms and spiritual richness of Vancouver Island. Whether you’re a curious learner or considering a course with VISTA, we’re glad you’re here.
Coastal Theology
Mend, Not Fix: Indigenous Invitations to the Church with Jodi Spargur
Author and pastor Jodi Spargur joins host Vanessa Caruso and poet Matthew Church to explore her new book Mend—a gentle yet challenging invitation for the Church to move beyond “fixing” toward true repair and reciprocity with Indigenous peoples.
They talk about what it means to mend rather than fix—embracing slowness, humility, and generational commitment to right relationship. Along the way, the conversation weaves through stories of Indigenous hospitality and generosity, reflections on Zacchaeus and kintsugi (the art of golden repair), and the surprising presence of joy at the edge of lament.
Together they ask:
- What does “land back” really mean for local churches?
- How can reconciliation become a shared spiritual practice rather than a political project?
- What would it look like for faith communities to stay in the work of mending for generations to come?
Jodi shares how Mend grew from her encounters with Indigenous elders and the question that first sparked the book: “Where is the Church?”—a challenge and an invitation to show up with love, humility, and courage.
If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed or unsure where to begin with reconciliation, this conversation offers a hopeful path forward: an invitation to join the long, beautiful work of mending together.
**VISTA is thrilled to be hosting a book launch celebration for Jodi Spagur and several other local authors**
Save the Date!
VISTA is thrilled to be hosting a book launch celebration for Mend by Jodi Spagur, published by New Leaf Network! Mend: An Invitation from Jesus to Return to Land-based Repair.
Plus — we’ll be highlighting several local authors and their brand-new books. It’s going to be an inspiring evening of stories, conversation, and community.
James Prette- Five Invitations
Vanessa Siemens Maher- 50 States of Grief
Randy Hein- From Where We Stand
Matthew Church- Through Darkness
Kyla Ward- Under the Sky
Copies of all the books will be available for purchase at the event
Friday, November 21 | 7:00–9:00 PM Church of Our Lord, hosted by The Table Church
TICKETS HERE - Cost $10 in advance or $15 at the door.
This collaborative event is brought to you by Vista: The Vancouver Island School of Theology and the Arts and New Leaf Network.
Learn more about the Vancouver Island School of Theology and the Arts
Credits:
Coastal Theology Podcast theme performed by Mark Glanville
Welcome to Coastal Theology, a podcast from the Vancouver Island School of Theology and the Arts. We explore how Christian faith, learning, and creativity flourish on Vancouver Island and how you can be part of the story. Well, welcome to Coastal Theology, a podcast for Vancouver Island School of Theology and the Arts. I just want to say at the outset for those that haven't listened, that my name is Vanessa, and I'm usually joined by Andy, but he's out of town right now. And if you haven't heard me in the last couple months, I had a bike accident. So I broke my jaw and I have a lisp currently because I'm missing a bunch of teeth. So I uh just keep that in mind as you listen to me and maybe hear uh some things that are a bit funny. And I'm joined today very happily by Matthew Church and Jodi. I forgot to ask how you say your last name. Jodi Sparger. Sparger. I'm joined by Jodi Sparger. And Jodi wrote a book called Mend. And it is a really amazing book, and we want to talk to her about it today, especially in light of her book launch, which she's coming to Victoria in November, November 21st, a Friday night to do a book launch. So we just want to talk about this book, Mend a bit in anticipation for that. So welcome, Jodi and Matthew. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you. Good to be here.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's good to hear your voice, Matthew. I won't I thought people haven't heard you yet. So there's Matthew. Okay, where to start? What are you feeling right now, Jodi? This is not on the list of questions, so I want to know.
SPEAKER_02:What am I feeling right now? Yeah. I'm grateful to be in conversation uh with friends and friends to be. Um and uh feeling feeling gratitude to be able to talk about this book um and to be able to uh like what I'm really grateful for are spaces that we can be together to talk about it. It's it's different maybe from some other books where you want to take it away by yourself. Um and so anywhere that I get to be with others in conversation around this is uh is a joy and an honor.
SPEAKER_01:That makes so much sense to me, Jody, because what I pictured while reading Mend was that it would make such a great corporate Lent, Lenten devotional. I thought, wow, this this would be an adventure to go through Mend, through Lent, but one of the key pieces there what for me was together. It doesn't feel like a private devotional, it feels very corporate in nature.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I've just I've just jotted that down. Uh pitch a mend Lenten devotional series.
SPEAKER_01:100%. I will pitch it over here. Are you for that?
SPEAKER_02:It could be accompanied by uh a beautiful book of poetry uh by Matthew Church.
SPEAKER_01:Good idea. We're making plans for our churches right now.
SPEAKER_00:Vancouver Island, look out, we're just it's gonna go like wildfire.
SPEAKER_01:Yep. Uh I'm serious, so I'm glad you both are too. So I want to say that this book is a real gift to me because I have lived in Canada for 10 years and feel a little bit overwhelmed by how much I don't know. And uh, you know, I I feel stupid even asking where do I begin? And I like kind of have this secret plan, like I'm gonna catch up on my own, and then I'll start talking and relating with people who know more about the indigenous history here and what reconciliation looks like. So to be given this book and then to feel like you're explaining to me, you're connecting some dots about things I've just heard peripherally, but I don't understand what they mean, even landback. Like now I know what land back signs all they mean, and I and how much I don't know about what they mean. But instead of just seeing them and thinking, like, oh, that feels important, one day I'll do something about that. Reading your book felt like a bridge, like to get from here to there, where I can open my mouth and be talking with you both, who I think of as your people on this path. Like you're definitely already walking the road. And I was just looking from afar, saying, one day I'll walk that road too. I don't know how to get there. So thank you for like the education. And it was really readable, you know, hearing about the doctrine of discovery and the Indian Act and treaties. These are all things that are like in the water for me, but I didn't know what they meant. Um, even referencing the TRC so much was really helpful. So that's my first thanks is for making something readable for people like me who don't really know where to start, but who care to start?
SPEAKER_02:I'm really grateful to hear that because that was the hope, right? Is that how do you how do you back up with something as as big as LandVac? You brought up LandVAC, so we'll go we'll go there. How do you how do you back up um from there to where people actually are so that that's not such a scary uh journey? Because I actually think it's a beautiful invitation. Um, and an invitation that we uh long for in this certain way, um, but that we're that we don't we don't know. Like uh it's interesting because I was just in um was just in Kelowna and someone said to me, I don't even feel like I I can like I've got all these indigenous neighbors and I don't even feel like I can um approach them. Like, how do I access them? It's like there are all these invitations that we've that the way in which the structural apartheid of Canada has been set up, we assume that there's this impenetrable barrier. Um, while at the same time, indigenous people are saying, come, come. And uh and we've still got this internal block in us that says, Oh, I can't, that's not for me. Um so I'm I'm that was one of my hopes is that we could build a bridge, uh a bridge interrelationship. Um, because these aren't um transactional realities, they are relational realities, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, it's it's such a great invitation uh to give some gratitude uh for that. I think of so many ways, so many resources uh from diversity of indigenous voices that we have. You know, if you go back as far as 2003, the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples, so many recommendations from there, the TRC, the National Inquiry uh into missing emerging indigenous women. There's all those recommendations that are invitations speaking to us. But I think myself and and many settlers can feel overwhelmed by just trying to sort through like how what do I choose here, how do I do, and then that question, what do I do? I think is often uh at the forefront of people in that. But I think sometimes indigenous friends and neighbors feel that question as a burden. It's like, oh, now I have to do something. So I think the gift of this work, one of them is that you're you're putting that invitation, spelling it out, and really practically helping us all to think about how do we respond to that invitation and think about that within our communities to kind of spur each other on to help each other on that journey.
SPEAKER_02:And to pay attention to the diversity of invitations that are happening in different places, right? Like that there are different, um some of these voices have been these national voices that are in inviting settler folks into a certain path. Um, and others are very specifically local. Um, and so recognizing, yeah, that we there are um there are pathways we can take. How do we how do we pay attention to where we are, who who we're uh on the lens of, whose lands we're on, um, and how we live well in those in those places. And I I need to say too that really I feel like there's so little of the book that is like Jody Sparter's brilliant ideas about anything. And mostly it's just me being a conduit of of the generosity of indigenous um elders and leaders who have who have made these calls and just trying to lift up and uh make make visible, make audible uh those calls that that I've had the privilege of being in spaces to hear uh and to extend those then um beyond this, which is part of the relational responsibilities of it within many indigenous cultures about receiving something, that you receive something, but that's not just for you. Then you have responsibility for passing that along. So it's been my hope to honor um honor those voices who have been making these calls by just being responsible with what I've heard.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I really loved your curation of stories and examples, you know, like that really did spark my imagination for new possibilities to hear about the church in New Zealand or churches in decline considering, you know, giving their building back to Indigenous people or paying rent. Like I see how you collected and gathered lots of examples. And that really did something for me to hear of like where this could go. But on the note of receiving, a story that touched me was about um the the pastor and the deacon who went to a residential school graveyard site of some sort bringing muffins, you know, and then finding that people there had already a very organized way of like uh exchanging resources, and they were just gonna leave. And someone wanted to give them bannock, and they said, Oh no, no, you know, that's so familiar to me. Like, oh no, no, no, no, no. Um, and they, you know, I maybe it was a she said, you know, take no, take the bannock. Um, too many kids didn't get enough, so eat it in honor of them. It was like, oh, something about being uh receivers of generosity and hospitality, and later they're invited to pray to Jesus, you know, with some tobacco. I just thought, wow, that's a that's a side of reconciliation and reparations that I hadn't anticipated that I would be like implicated as a um as someone on the other side of the Eucharist, you know, like the communion. And it reminded me one of my neighbors is Cree, and he made halibut for my family before my accident, and just keeps checking in about when I can chew well enough so he can make me lamb. I mean, he like marinated the halibut for like days before we got there. There's like a painfulness to the hospitality and the generosity, the welcome. Uh, you know, he's in his 80s. And yet you talked about like with it comes responsibility. So I'm already feeling like, oh no, I'm in the I'm in the cycle. And it's a good cycle, but it's it's not neutral, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And oh yes, you're in the cycle. I'm in it.
SPEAKER_02:You're you're in the you're in the reciprocity cycle. Like, what a beautiful thing. All of all of creation is in a reciprocity cycle. And why do we think we can operate outside of it, right? Oh um, yeah, you're right.
SPEAKER_01:What a gift. It's more of a delusion that we're not in it. We we are in it. Yes, just a matter of how aware we are that we're on the receiving end and the responsibility end.
SPEAKER_02:And and are we good relatives in how we're in how we're stewarding our our part, or are we um you know, I heard years ago um when I was in so in the Dakotas, and the Dakotas are where my family um settled and displaced indigenous peoples. Um, but I I learned the um the Lakota word for um white people, which is Wasitu, uh, which means the one who eats the best part of the meat, right? So that refutation that we we're we're we can be takers and not realize what uh what it is to be part of the cycle, to be part of um caring for one another, even in in our own um choices.
SPEAKER_01:Oh wow, Jody, you're reminding me Matthew and I in church um a few weeks ago, there was a sermon, and she named uh the different words for white people from different languages, and that was one of them, and they were very hard to hear. Wow. Matthew, before I keep uh gushing, wait, Jody, were you gonna say something?
SPEAKER_02:I was just gonna say, so there's the opportunity and the invitation for us to it's not the end of the story, right? There's the naming, uh naming in Western cultures is a s is often a singular event, but in many other cultures around the world, it's it's an iterative process. So if your character begins to show signs of change, you might get a new name. Um we we might, if we become good relatives, we might um be renamed.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that reminds me a little bit of the structure of your book because I forget all the words, but you had like a intro and a foreword and a prologue, and a there were like all these things before it started. There's a lot before it ever gets going, isn't there? And then there's a lot before it ends, or it ends, and then there's a lot. It's like an epilogue and then an appendix and then a bibliography, and then a thank you, and then a you know what I mean. Um now I just noticed that because I don't know, I haven't read a book start to finish, I guess, in a little while, but it kind of you're what you're saying is like there's a lot that came before. Where do I begin? And this story is not over, like it kind of feels like acts in that way, like um how acts ends. Just like keep keep writing uh the book of acts here, people. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no one. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_02:No, you go ahead, Matthew.
SPEAKER_00:Uh I was just as we were talking about the naming, uh, I'm thinking about the Zacchaeus narrative that that you know runs through the whole of the book and is so central. And you know, the naming of Zacchaeus, what his name meant, and how he was seeing, you know, this idea of taking the fat or taking the best, you know, that so characterized some of his life. And so it's interesting the invitations he receives from Jesus, um, both, you know, it almost seems like a command, like come out of the tree, but it's an invitation, a bold invitation. Um, and and that's not, it's kind of there's more and more invitations as that narrative progresses. Um, so I I just wondered about uh if you could share a bit more about how that Zacchaeus narrative became uh kind of the central part as you were putting this book together.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I actually originally I wrote the book. It just Zacchaeus was so clearly like this person to be in dialogue with, and I I kind of fell in love with the guy over the course of time, right? Like it's easy to just to paint him as as a bad guy who turns good. Um, but when you press in, it's like, oh, I see myself, right? I see I see us, I see my people um here, and I see what motivates his decisions and how similar they are to the things that motivate my decisions of self-protection and um trying to trying to make sure that you you can survive in the environment that you're in, right? And uh all of those things. So originally I'd written the book with Zacchaeus, like a chunk of Zacchaeus at the beginning of each chapter, and kind of like, here's what happens next. What does that mean for us? Here's what happens next, what does that mean for us? Um, it it wasn't uh it wasn't so coherent in the final um process, so we pulled it out, but but it was how I like I wrote the book in dialogue with Zacchaeus, absolutely, um, along the way. And so many um it just it fascinates me that we relegate Zacchaeus to children's books and Sunday school stories, and we don't really pick him up uh in meaningful ways um for adults. Um and yet why why do we know the rich young ruler and not and not Zacchaeus? Um even when I was I was trying out names for the book, you know, you kind of you just throw things out and uh and I threw out various things about Zacchaeus, and I was amazed at how many uh Christian people didn't like they didn't clue in. They didn't have that Sunday school song running in their heads like I did. Uh Zacchaeus was a weird little man. Um so I just was getting a kind of a blank look from people, which tells me the extent to which it was like, it's like, well, he's not the stuff of like scholarly work, he's not the stuff of you know, thoughtful um discipleship. Uh, you know, he's he's for he's for children. Um so his name doesn't show up in the in the title in the end, but um, but he's he's so critical. And so part of it is also like, how do we how do we build a bridge back to Zacchaeus and to learning learning his story? Uh and learning, I'm working right now on a project out of um Exodus and and Leviticus and looking at the principles that Zacchaeus is picking up, right? They come straight out of uh Exodus 22, where it's like, well, if you steal somebody's you know donkey, you owe them four donkeys. Like all of this, it's just all this math, right? And you're like, oh yeah, that totally Zacchaeus gets this here, right? Um, so I really enjoyed, I enjoyed him as a conversation partner. It was uh a sort of um mystical experience, actually, writing both kind of in dialogue with Zacchaeus, yeah, uh, and in dialogue with these these elders and friends uh on the journey who who again I was trying to honor. But it so the writing process, I don't imagine that any other writing process will be quite like this, but it was um it was quite a spiritual experience of of kind of listening and saying, How do I honor your voice here?
SPEAKER_01:Right. Well, I can tell your familiarity with him because you call him Zach. You know, it feels like you spent a long time with him because he's just Zach.
SPEAKER_00:Your nickname status now.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Well, Zacchaeus also is hard to spell. So, you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, the the title, you know, I was looking for the title throughout the book, and I realized so many times, oh, here it is again, here it is again. You know, it's mend is short for reparations and repair, and you have lots of um our words, repent, uh reciprocity. It's a it's a beautiful word. Mend. What does it mean to you now, having written this? I mean, that's a huge question, but what what associations do you have to mend right now?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I I mean I explore in the book, and again, mend is something we came to kind of later in the process, but it felt like, oh yes, this actually is like it is the thing. Mend and repair for me are very closely tied, and they're they're that sense of like I I grew up in a I grew up in a family where my dad could fix anything given enough time and resources. But it but not because he knew it, but he knew how to prepare manual men gets put in uh you know, in some, you know, stitch work patching kind of stuff, but there's it's a much less blooded little um realm, but but there's something there's something gentle about um about mend too, like that word is a gentler word, even than the word repair for me. Um and and it speaks to a again, a tenderness and an attentiveness. And I I try to juxtapose that with like fixing, which is much more utilitarian and it's about the outcome versus being about the process. Um, and so yeah, how do we lean into and how do we become and recover this art of being people who mend, who want to look for um places where there's need of mending and want to put ourselves to that. So you know, we we throw around that that verse about becoming repairs of the breach. Um, but somehow that feels harsh too, whereas it doesn't feel curious, it doesn't it doesn't feel um attentive and it doesn't feel like it opens a relational path. Whereas men, I see this, you know, circle of women teaching one another how to do different stitches to to mend a different kind of a garment or to uh you know solve a particular problem um i in a space together. Uh so yeah, those are some of the things that come to mind. Beautiful. You unquirked a whole rabbit trail there.
SPEAKER_00:And mend is mend is quite a hopeful word as well, because we can face all you know that we face when we look at such a broken history in our country, and it can feel hopeless. But mend is a really hopeful word to say, you know, there's there's good work. It's gonna take a lot of hard work, good hard work, uh, but it can, we can be uh people who find shalom together in the midst of this. Um, so it's very hopeful word.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I was really moved by you talking about mend and its difference, uh it's contrast to repair. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And and what can't fit together. Like what is an ill-fitting um like you can't just patch you can't stick different fabrics together um in any way that you want to kind of again fix fix the problem. There are ways that in in uh fixing a hole you can fix instead of mending, but that attentiveness to of um of the art and the craft um of the mending and the as you said, the the attentiveness, the the feeling and anticipating and um and I think some of that, I think some of that work in regards to right relations and justice is is also the feeling of oh, this is too thin, like this part of our journey is too thin to hold the connection to um to those with whom we want to restore relationship. How do how do I actually ensure that we're we're stitching onto something that's that is strong enough to hold um this relationship? Because I think that's the other, I think that's the other problem that we get into in the journey of right relationship. We want it to be um, we want it to be done quickly, and we want to take action and then we want reconciliation to have happened. Um and indigenous folks over and over again say that you know this journey is has taken many generations. The journey of harm is many generations, um, and it's gonna take many generations to heal. And how do we like I think that's one of the biggest challenges for not non-Indigenous faith communities is to say how do we stay at this relationship building, this relationship mending for generations? Yeah. Do we have what it takes to do that? Do we can we even imagine that? And what what might we need to strengthen in ourselves to be able to um to ride that out for the duration of time it's going to take? Um, again, not in this onerous uh like we'll never see it sort of sense, but like, oh, what like what what is the beauty? What are the pieces of strength that we pass on to our children? What what pieces of strength are we seeing and receiving from our children and our grandchildren, even now, who have deeper understandings of this history and the legacy, but who maybe need some faith pieces to be tied in for them to be like, oh, uh, you know, now I can stand and say, yes, I belong, I belong to Jesus and I belong to this tradition of faith that has done much harm. But here is here is our mending path. I think that's one of the things that's really on my heart um in the work that I do across the country is just realizing, you know, a lot of a lot of folks my age, uh or 40s and up, still think that the work of reconciliation is kind of um it's it's optional. It's like, are are we into this or not?
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and that's not true for people 30 and under. They're like, look, if my faith has no uh no defense in light of this, if it has no way of responding uh in in some way that's deeper than just saying, well, that wasn't us, yeah, uh, then I'm not sure I'm interested, right? And I think there's actually a crisis of faith happening potentially among that uh demographic who are like, show, show me, like, show me, is there a path to stand uh in this history and legacy and still hold on to my faith or not? Um, and so I I do think it's I do think it's imperative, and I think that it's um much more vital than a lot of church leaders um might think for us to be able to to talk about these things, uh, not see this as peripheral, um, but own it kind of at the center um of our life of faith.
SPEAKER_04:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:Uh you said so many things that I like kind of lit up or uh winced at winced in a in a good way. Um one of my biggest takeaways is the slowness. Like you said, this is gonna be slow. Like you said, it took seven generations to get here, it's gonna take gener seven generations. Does that mean I don't do anything? Does that mean Um, I'm stuck. No, it's gonna be slow. I loved learning a little bit more about Kensugi. Am I saying it right? Kensugi. Yeah, that that art of broken pottery repair with gold. You know, that that also is a delicate work. Uh, and it doesn't have the sense of like we're gonna take it back to what it was before. It's it's very much highlighting the newness from the cracks with the gold. And that's what I like about men too. It's like, like you said, maybe we're just we're not trying to get this toaster oven to work exactly as it did before, and then we wipe our hands clean of it and we move on. It's like maybe it's we don't need a toaster anymore, but let's take up take out all the pieces and look, put it together, realize it's still not working. Like there is this attention to detail and permission to experience joy in the process. Like Kinsugi brings the gold, you know, um, brings like that thread of joy. That also, I think I'm scared of that too. I know I have a lot of anxiety in this whole arena. I think that's one of them. And you highlighted Zach's Zach's joy. Why are you smiling listening to me?
SPEAKER_02:Just just because I think there is, I I think joy and and apprehension like live on the you know, on this on opposite sides of the same uh edge, right? Yes. Um and and we we experience joy when we're really afraid that this might not work, right? Yes. Uh and it flips over, we're like, oh, there is joy there. Look at that. Um and it, you know, and it kind of maybe overwhelms us even a little bit. Um, so there's something about being at that edge of uh being out of control, like joy. Yeah, I'm not in control really when when I experience joy. And so I think it's that lack of control that we also fear. Um yeah. And it's not that we do it for joy, but that I think joy, think joy comes. And joy, we also know, lives uh, you know, lives in in relationship with lament and in relationship with pain and with facing those things, and uh live lives in relationship, beauty lives in relationship um with ugliness, right? Like that transformation in Katsuyi Um is so powerful because of of what almost wasn't, right? Um and and maybe there's something to that in our in that sense of doing the long work. Like we we could just opt out, um and and and throw out the piece of pottery. Yeah, what a what a loss. What a loss.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Judy, I have a question for you, but because we don't have that much time left, I also want to make sure you uh if there's a question you wish you were asked, or like, you know, I know I'm one of your first interviews about this book. So if if now you're like, oh, I hope someone talks about this part or that part. Sometimes I write poems and there's just like one line that I want to tell someone about. Like, I don't want to read you the whole poem, but let me just tell you this one line I love and why I love it. So I want you to think about that before we end. Like, is there just one thing you wrote that you love, or that you just like it kind of captures the project for you or has a special place in your heart now? But my question before that is what do you hope people who read this book will like feel and and want to do after reading it? Like if you were like heard from people like me who read it and you just felt like, oh yeah, like that's what I was hoping for. Do you have a sense of what that would look like?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um I I think and I and I I'm laying this out in the fact that it's got a user's manual, right? Like I I want this to be put to work not perfectly. I know that's that that's not even that's not even the goal, but is there something we can there's something we can do? Is there something we can try together? Is there something some way we could start paying rent uh on our land? For those of us who are on unceded uh territory or you know that the Vancouver Island treaties are complicated because they were uh not robust treaties um or even consultative treaties really. Um but yeah, what what can we what can we do? But but again, seeing that as a we, um, so I I think a first step would be to read and to say, oh wow, this awakened some things for me. Who can I gather um who we could read this together and think about what this means in our location? And the fact of the matter is we we a can't do the things that are in the book uh alone, uh and and b we're not meant to. Yeah. And C, we need each other to keep going and and to stay the path. And so um, you know, I'm a I'm a pastor by training, though that's not the work that I do now. But I I actually hope that this might bring revival and renewal in the church as we uh dare to risk what we've held most um most dear and might might be willing to ask the spirit how we might uh be Zechious in in this situation and what what salvation might come to our house in being responsive.
SPEAKER_01:I love that you want to put it to work. One idea I just had is I loved how you saved your story for the end. It's like here how this has worked out for me, or here it is in process. Um, and I noticed how long, how many years you've been on this path of right relationship. So it kind of gave me inspiration. Like, I wonder what my chapter will look like, you know, like to write just a little template, like to start keeping my um dates and details and memories of my experiences with indigenous people and reconciliation. Like, what are I have a lot more touch points than I think I do because I tend to compare myself with activists, you know, and think like, oh, I'm nowhere close, but like to see myself as having a story too, and sharing those stories with each other, like that's a good idea for the Lenten devotional night. It's like some prompts to to name memories and touch points and and like how this interacts with me and my life, and to hear that from each other. That sounds good.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I love that idea. I love it. Um, because I think you're right. I think we don't lift up um even our own lived experiences. We let those be dominated by what the culture tells us our experiences are. Um but for most of us, we start we start paying attention, we start feeling the feeling the fabric, and we start to notice some things that are there uh that we maybe hadn't noticed otherwise. Yeah, I love that.
SPEAKER_01:It reminds me of a story in your book using the word unconfessed. Hmm. Where was it? It was like maybe it was a quote from someone, but it the idea that it left me with is like there is a cost to unconfession, and there is a freedom to confession. And so I I know confession kind of has a negative connotation, but I I mean it from the invitational side. Like, I don't I don't want to remain unconfessed. There's a lot more for me, and what would it what does paying rent look like for me in my neighborhood with my neighbors next to my cemetery on Indigenous land? Like that feels really creative too, to have lots of permission to express this um in unique ways.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:Did you think of anything about my question to you? Like, do you have a favorite part or like just something you wanna something that special to you about this work that you want to say out loud?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think that I think the special things to return to for me uh is really the so I I end up telling the story twice in the book, which is probably why it stands out as important to me. But it's it's the it's the catalyst for the book and the invitation from uh from those those elders um saying where where is the church? Where's the church who says that they are on about reconciliation? They were a part of removing the children from our homes, they were part of taking the land from our people. Now the church says it's about reconciliation. Where are you when we're fighting for our land and when we're fighting for our children? Um so I think Auntie Patricia's voice rings uh strongly in my ears through through this whole thing. And and I'm grateful that you hear a gentleness in the book and an invitation because that that is reflective of um Auntie Patricia's voice there. And it's it's it's it is this invitation and it's this longing and it's this deep sadness too. Um, but it but she sees a potential. Uh all all four of those women see a potential in the church, or they wouldn't still be with us, right? Um and so I think it's that, it's that it's that person who um who knows you and loves you deeply. Maybe that was a grandparent, maybe that was uh a teacher who saw you and and loved you, but it's that that look in their eyes of, you know, there's you've got more potential than what you're living up to. And it's not a judgment, it really is that calling out, and you're like, oh shoot, I can't keep just, you know, flipping by. I I need to I need to show up because I'm loved and I'm seen and and the potential in me is seen too. Um so I that's my hope that people would feel um that that look of love um and hear the invitation in that way because I think we again are predisposed to hear this as judgment. Um and that doesn't lead us to the places um that we need to get to. And that's often been our own judgment on others that we assume others have for us. Uh and there's a there's a different way. There's a different way.
SPEAKER_01:You're describing Zacchaeus too, like he was he was addressed by Jesus for his potential, like called down, called up. It reminds me too, Howard Thurman is a favorite writer of mine, and he talks about the woman caught in adultery, like that Jesus like loved her into um, like kind of putting a a crown over her head that she would forever grow into. And I I always picture like wearing my mom's heels um and just kind of standing on my tippy toes to grow into this dignity and this possibility that I do feel from God. And I feel in your story with Auntie Patricia, is that the way that she talked to you, like kind of just like getting a little taller by the millisecond, as you're um convicted and invited into more.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and as we share that invitation together.
SPEAKER_01:Jodi, thank you so much for talking to me. I didn't know my my story would include talking to the author of Mend one day. I wouldn't have I wouldn't have voted for me to do that. And here I am.
SPEAKER_02:I vote for you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, thank you. And I'm now I can't, there's no unvoting. I'm in it.
SPEAKER_02:There you go.
SPEAKER_01:There you go.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's good to be with you, you and Matthew, uh both today. Thank you for um for extending the invitation and for being bold enough to uh to talk about something that's fairly uncomfortable, right? Uh in a lot of in a lot of circles.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks so much, Jody. Thanks for listening to Coastal Theology, a podcast from the Vancouver Island School of Theology and the Arts. For more information on Vista, go to VistaCanada.org.
