Is that typical with tops and bottoms?

At a retreat just outside Las Vegas, Nik meets Donald and David, two besties with a big plan to get laid on the strip. They discuss their distinct paths to understanding their sexuality, boundaries with friends, and the patience they recommend for those who haven’t found their chosen family yet.

Transcript

 Nik: Okay, real quick, this is an adult podcast made by adults for adults, and it’s about gay stuff. So if you don’t wanna listen to that, turn it off now. 

Can you do one of your screams that we've been hearing all weekend? 

Donald: [Screams.] That expresses my happiness in a way that words cannot explain. It's just a noise that come out from my spirit like [screams]. I don't even know when it happens.

Like even though you said I've been doing it all weekend I don't think I'm conscious that I'm doing it when I do it. 

Nik: Hey, welcome to All the Greatest Gays. I’m your token straight guy, Nik Shriner. This is the show where I interview my gay friends about being gay. And these two queens, uh pretty fun, I actually didn’t know them until we were all staying on this retreat together in Las Vegas. And we were talking about some gay stuff on Friday night. I’m like, “this is a really fun conversation for me, not only because it’s interesting, but because I have a gay podcast where I interview my gay friends.” And they’re like, “Bitch, you gotta have us on.” So I pulled out the microphone on Saturday, and off to the races we went. 

Welcome to the Donald and David show. You guys have been so fun this weekend. I've been so glad to get to know you. 

David: Oh my god. 

Nik: We're nervous now. Isn't it funny how that happens? As soon as you turn on the recorder it's like, wait a second. Right. 

Donald: I'm excited.

Nik: Good, good, good. I'm excited to talk to you guys too. Because what's fun is we haven't really known each other prior to this weekend. You two are so great. Frick and frack. The yin and the yang. The black and the white of the Oreo cookie? 

Donald: Yes.

David: Of course.

Nik: My first thought was like, what the plan is for tonight? You guys are going downtown Vegas, and the intention, I'll let you spill the beans. 

Donald: So we are going to downtown Vegas, and we already have a hotel and it's going to be very busy. We're going to be on Grindr looking for boys, looking for dick, looking for sex, and just going to have a fun time.

You know Vegas is about making the most out of your experience and this is my first time here, and I just want to live it up. I want to have a little bit of fun, and that is my intention is to be a slut. 

 Nik: We're in North Las Vegas, and we got a little taste of the strip last night. Vegas is really you get out what you put into it And you're gonna put you're gonna 

Donald: I'm gonna put it all the way out. Like I've never put out like I'm gonna put out now 

David: It's your first time here in Vegas, so I'm going to really show you a good time here. I want to make sure you have a good time. 

Donald: We're going to have an amazing time. 

Nik: Yes. David, you're the, camp counselor. 

David: I will be sort of the chaperone for Donald tonight. We are possibly going to a gay bathhouse as well. It will be a good experience, and if you're ever uncomfortable you could come to me, and I will always aid you. 

Donald: Of course.

Nik: Do you guys have a safe word of like, I'm feeling uncomfortable?

Donald: No, I think I'm just gonna be honest and be like, “I want to get the fuck out of here.” Honestly, you want to know what my biggest fear is, and I'll open up about this. Like I am afraid of going to these places and like cruising and boys like not walking up or not having the courage to walk up and be like, “suck my dick.” I need somebody to be full frontal and just approach me, because I'm not really the type of person to approach people.

Nik: Really?

Donald: So yeah, no, not at all. So if I feel like someone's not gonna approach me, and I'm just walking around, and people are just staring at me, I'm gonna get turned off and bored, and I'm going to want to get on the apps and find it myself. 

Nik: That's so interesting you say that, because I felt like when we first met, you just came up right up to me and gave me such a big hug, and like we really connected in that very first moment. 

Donald: Right.

Nik:  I felt both of our hearts wide open. I love that. So I can't imagine you not being—I guess that reminds me of high school. I feel like that was fucking hard when like you would be staring at somebody, and no one is making a move. You know, you're like on the dance floor looking from opposite sides or like, oh across the lunch counter, and it's just like what the fuck, why won't one of us say something?

And I guess especially, like I don't know, in fucking straight high school, the guy has to be you know, the one who says anything but in your situation both of you are the guy. 

Donald: Right, 

Nik: How does that work, like?

David: We just don't really have that in the gay world. I would say it's about 50/ 50. So I feel like 50 percent of the time, I will maybe go approach someone, and 50 percent of the time they'll come to me. But it's definitely different than the straight life that I was portraying in high school. 

Nik: It's anyone's game. 

David: Yeah. Like either person could go up to the other person. 

Nik: And is that typical, um, with tops and bottoms too? 

David: I think it has to do with confidence, because there are confident, aggressive bottoms.

Donald: Exactly.

David: And you might think the bottom would be the woman, so you would think the top would ask the bottom out. 

Nik: Right. 

David: But there are cases where a top is more submissive and wants a sit back. 

Nik: Okay. What is the ideal approach looking like? Just like literally anything. 

Donald: Yeah. Say hi.

Nik: You make it sound so easy. And I feel like that was what high school could have been. 

David: It could have been.

 Nik: Tell me more about high school and feeling like you were portraying straight. 

David: Okay, so I grew up outside of Chicago and I went to Naperville North High School and I— 

Nik: Oh, we're getting the words! NPH!

David: Yes! 

Donald: I love that!

David: But I wanted to run away from that high school. I was so ready to leave Naperville when I was done. 

Nik: Bye Napes! 

David: There were a lot of hot guys there, but at that time I was just trying to date women. I was trying to fit in with the guys I was hanging out with, and the guys that I thought were cool. And I think there was a bit of me that liked very feminine things but would always hide it. So I grew up loving music like Fergie, Gwen Stefani, and Nelly Furtado, but I remember guys coming up to me and being like, “that's a little weird.” And I remember there being a point where I was like, I need to start listening to the Red Hot Chili Peppers, Nirvana, and like Pearl Jam to be cool. I ended up liking them, but it was a very fake thing at that time to push myself to do that. 

Nik: Nirvana was your beard. 

David: It was. Yeah. 

Nik: Was it a conscious thing that you were hiding feminine things? Are you, were you like, what was the clarity on your sex preference then? 

David: I was in a lot of denial. I truly thought I liked women only. I would look at a guy, maybe on the football team, who got girls all the time. And I'd always say, “Oh, I wish I could be friends with that guy. That guy gets a lot of girls. How cool.” It was those moments that I was actually in love with those guys and should have realized I was gay, but the denial just did not allow me to get over that hump.

Nik: That makes sense. When was the moment where you were like, “oh, I'm actually attracted to you, not the girl that you're going for”? Was there a particular moment?

David: College, with lots of drugs and alcohol. My inhibitions, once they went down to a certain degree, the true colors came out. There was no hiding anymore. 

Nik: But then would you wake up and be like, “what did I do last night? Wait a second. Did I have sex? Who was I having sex with?” 

David: There was one weekend where on Friday I woke up with a girl, and then on Sunday I woke up with a guy. 

Nik: So it was the classic waking up with somebody. 

David: It was, but then there was also having a gay cousin who was a little bit younger than me that was on Grindr, and him showing me that, and me realizing, “Oh, I would love to use this app.”

Nik: What happened on Saturday is the question?

David: I was living with four straight engineering students in the Midwest at the University of Iowa. And, I don't remember this cause I was in a blackout, but I came home from a gay bar and my roommates were sitting in the family room, and I just went up to them. And I started crying, and I was like, “guys, I have something to tell you. I'm gay.”

And they all looked at me like, “Oh, okay. Wow. We didn't know that. But, um, we're here for you. That's totally fine. That's totally cool, David. If you ever need anything, come to us.”

And then I went to bed that night. And I woke up the next morning not remembering a single thing. So, it was really awkward for some time because my roommates knew I was gay. But I didn't know that they knew I was gay. 

Nik: Because you'd forgotten you came out to them. 

David: Yeah. 

Nik: So your first time coming out was in a blackout. 

David: Yeah. 

Nik: And you only found this out later because they told you.

David: Yeah, about like six months later I had a friend that was like, “you know, you told them.” Because I was all nervous about telling them they're like, “you fucking told them. 

Nik: You already told them. That's so funny.

David: I was relieved, but it was Definitely a very awkward period of time, my last semester of college. I had my roommate also walk in on me with a guy in the bed, into my room. And so like they were piecing together. What was going on? 

Nik: Even though you'd already come out to them, but you hadn't remembered they came out you'd come out to them.

David: Yeah, it was I think it was like another roommate that walked in on me 

Nik: And then that same weekend, that's when you actually went on Grindr for the first time and like consciously had sex with a guy?

David: It was yeah, it was around that time when I saw this app that was like a candy shop of men. I was like I need to use this app.

 I actually used my cousin's phone the first time. I was too scared to put it on my own phone, because I'm straight. 

Nik: Who's watching my phone? 

David: Exactly. I actually, one night when I was hanging out with my cousin, I used his grinder to go hook up with a guy at a hotel we were staying at.

That was the first time, I think, I had never hooked up, or maybe the second or third. And I remember being so afraid of doing the hookup, but also my cousin finding out the next day that I had been using his phone. 

Nik: Hmm, even though he's the one who showed you? 

David: Yeah, but it's weird to be catfishing people with your cousin's profile.

Just like that whole that whole thing was weird.

Nik:  It just becomes who's more attractive like were they excited to see you? You're like, oh it turns out you're younger and cuter than your cousin? 

David: Well, we look similar I'll say that.

David: so they were like probably a little like wait, it's not exactly him, but I'm getting someone similar, right?

Nik: That's funny. 

David: Yeah Sorry, dude, whoever that person was that night.

Nik: What about what about you, Donny? Do people call you Donny?  

Donald: Yeah. That's my Instagram. Ohdamnitsdonny. 

Nik: Oh, damn, it’s Donny.

Donald: Everybody can follow me, it’s really nice.

Nik: That's clear. Was there like a defining moment for you when you're like, oh, I'm gay actually?

Donald: I always knew. I think it was a defining moment for my family and my friends. I think each of them have their own defining moment, the people closest to me, because I came out to everyone in my own time, depending on how deep the relationship was. But I always knew. 

Nik: You always knew, like, ever since you can remember?

Donald: I remember being in elementary school, and I seen little boys playing on the playground, and I just thought they were so cute. And the girls, we would hang out, but we would just like, draw pictures, or talk about Barbie's, or just, like, hang out, and I never thought they were attractive, but I always felt that they had a protectiveness over me, and I had a protectiveness over them. But it was still something that made me different for them, because the girls all had their kind of cliques, but they would still invite me in to play. 

Nik: Does any of that dynamic come into your current relationships and friendships?

Donald: Yeah, all of them. Most of my women relationships are, like, over 10 years. And they're still protective of me, and I'm still protective over them. 

Nik: And you still play barbies.

Donald: Don't play Barbies, but I would love to dress them up and play Barbie someday.

Nik: Back to you guys. So you guys have never had sex even though you're such good friends?

Donald: Oh, me and him? Me and David? No, we’ve never had sex.

Nik: What's been the, what's been the conscious thought around that? Like is that a decision or is that like it's not each other's type or 

Donald: I think I live so in the moment with David. And that's what makes our relationship so fun and just so spontaneous that if it happens, it happens. But it's not something that I'm trying to, like, manipulate to get. 

Nik: Sure 

Donald: I'm just yeah living in this friendship kind of, and it just hasn't happened. 

Nik: Hmm. 

David: And I think it's okay for gay men to just be friends.

Like I have so many gay guys that are friends. The stereotype might be that we're all sleeping together, but we're not all sleeping together.

Donald:  Right. 

Nik: That makes sense. Especially like, seeing something you guys posing in your speedos, like rubbing on each other, and dropping your drawers, and spreading your cheeks. A part of me feels like that would be foreplay. Like if I were doing that with a girl, I would it would be a turn on for me.

Donald: I think it is neurotic and fun to have a person that you can do that with. It's kind of like exploring but knowing boundaries with each other and, like, knowing this is what it is. And I think that's the fun in it, because I’ve never had a friendship like this, and I’ve always been into voyeurism. And I’ve always been down to, like, take pictures.

So to find someone that's actually interested in that, too. I don't want to like ruin the relationship with sex. Yeah, because I know once we have sex I turn into a crazy bitch.

Nik: You're the uh, the 

Donald: The insane psychotic crazy bitch in love. 

Nik: That's so funny. I had a feeling that y'all had a platonic relationship and that, you know, the context of your relationship is more important than getting off, especially when getting off is so easy for you, lucky gays. Cause what you guys do have is really special, and you don't even live in the same place anymore, right?

 You're in Dallas, and that's where you're from originally?

Donald: Yup.

Nik: Okay, and you're in West Hollywood, right? 

David: Yes. 

Nik: Yeah, that's really special that you guys can, because I've definitely had those like platonic relationships, like girls that I would meet in theater camp or whatever. And It'd be so fun, and we'd be playing together on stage and feeling so free, and then all of a sudden it's like: let's consummate this relationship. And then it's, oh whoops. 

Donald: It gets different.

Nik: It gets way different. 

Donald: It's different. That's the best way to describe it. 

Nik: Why do you think that sex makes things so different? i'm curious to get your point of view on this because Sex is also different for gays than it is for straights. Don't you think? 

Donald: Yes. So I feel that— 

Nik: Sorry does that sound weird and rude when I say it like that?

Donald: No, not at all.

Nik: Okay. 

Donald: In my personal experience, sex makes things weird. Just, it does. It makes things weird. Like, I know what it is, and if we go into something as just sex, it's gonna stay in that ballpark forever. We can probably become friends out of it, but it’s most likely 99% not gonna happen, because we met on Grindr and that's what it is. 

I like to keep the relationships where they naturally started. So with me and David, it was friends, and that's where it's going to stay. And I want to build on a friendship relationship. But once it crosses the avenue into sex, that's a totally different like ballpark. And it gets weird, and it gets messy. And then we're no longer the best of friends, and I'll probably make things change. 

Like I'll get weird. I'll get distant. That's just my natural response. I don't like intermingling sex and friendships. 

Nik: Your friendship has a container that's based on friendship and shared interests that may even be sexual, and you don't want sex to change that because you know yourself. 

I mean, amen. Know thyself. What about you, David, what are your thoughts on how sex can change relationships? 

David: I think as quick as you get into it is as quick as you get out of it. So when you are just going to bang the first day, in my case, I might be over it the next day, because I didn't get to have any connection with that person.

I just got to see their physical side. So I saw the sex side of them, not so much the love and connection side. 

Nik: The emotional component. 

David: Yeah, I remember this sort of with my straight relationships when I was dating girls towards the end of high school and in the beginning of college.

I got to know them, we went on dates. We went to parties. Sex maybe happened after about a month. I felt like it was just something that kind of enhanced the relationship later on. So it was like built on something. It's not to say I haven't had that with a guy. It's just in this recent past, I've just been okay with having the transactional sex for whatever reason.

That's what I want right now. 

Nik: Not so much a relationship? 

David: It might be because I'm coming out of one from like last year, but yeah just currently that's kind of where I'm sitting at.

Nik: That's great. I think that's so insightful about like how quickly you go in is how quickly you want out. 

Like in my partnership, like we really took our time. And even though I wanted to have sex our very first night hanging out, we ended up, like, smooching, and I was like, “do you want to go to the bedroom?” And she thankfully said no, because I didn't have the will. I was like, “I'm excited.”

 And then, I’m curious, like, okay, like. Because, will you guys have sex in the same room tonight? Will you ideally have sex together with separate people? Is that...? 

Donald: No. I will not have sex in the same room with David while he's having sex. It's some things that I don't want to see or hear my sister make noises of.

That's going to trip me out, so I don't want to hear him, like arched up, ass out getting fucked. That's just something I don't want to view in this reality. But I want her to get it. So I will be taking a stroll down the block whenever he has a dick appointment and same. 

David: I'll watch you get your back blown out.

Donald: I'll let you record.

David: Okay well, see. No. There are some boundaries. Like I would agree, like I feel like we are not at the point where we would want to see each other get fucked, but we're okay with like seeing each other naked. Like we were changing in this room with no problem. So I think that's sort of where the boundary’s at.

Donald: Right.

Nik: Okay. Are you are you able to marvel at each other's penises, like to compare that. Does that happen? 

Donald: Yeah. 

Nik: Okay, that's good.

Donald: I think David's an attractive man. So I'm like, oh, I love that for him. 

Nik: Oh, look at that, that's nice. 

Donald: Yeah, like that's a bad bitch. 

David: Thank you. Thank you, Donald. 

Nik: Okay, great.

What about like before you guys had a collective of friends, other gay allies, was there someone in the world for you that stood as like, “Oh, I feel safe being who I am because of that person”?

Was there any gay icon that inspired you to become more at ease with your true selves?

Donald: Yes, the first gay icon is Beyonce, because she's a woman and unapologetically Black, and she just has this comforting spirit. And she has talent behind her where nobody can deny her her authenticity. I just look up to somebody like that.

And the second person is my mom. I feel like she's my gay icon, because even through all the worst of my addiction to everything that I've been through, she always pushes me forward, and she always wants the best for her little Black son. And she always say, I can do whatever I want to do. And she's always just loved me unapologetically and unconditionally. 

Nik: That's so nice. It makes me want to cry. What's your mom's name?

Donald: Sumiko. And that's my girl. That's my bestie. I miss her so much.  Mama, shout out to you. You are my light, and I love you to the moon and back. 

Nik: Sumika 

Donald: Sumiko. It means long life beautiful child in Japanese, and that's my girl. 

Nik: That's so sweet. Is your mom half Japanese? 

Donald: No, I think my grandparents just love that name.

Nik: Okay, that's so cool.

Donald: I know, right? It's kind of random. 

Nik: In the south? You guys grew up in the south?

 Donald: Midwest. My parents grew up in St Louis, and then they moved to Texas when I was a baby, and then that's where I grew up. 

Nik: Okay. Um, that's so great. What’s been really fun about this is hearing so many different gay origin stories, you know. And some of them are just classically easy and some are classically a little challenged, and both are really similar to my story apart from the gay stuff.

 What about, what about you D? Anybody stick out? 

David: Okay. No, shout out to Beyonce and Gaga who got us collectively through the two thousands and the 2010s. For me, Gwen Stefani, the pop singer, was someone and is someone I hold dear to my heart. I remember listening to her obsessively as a kid. I remember family members and friends saying that was weird and not very masculine. And sort of doubling down in becoming even more obsessed and wanting to sing all of her songs.

Nik: Like, I'll show you. Like, this is weird. I'll fucking become number one fan.  

David: When people ask why I am obsessed, I think that's the reason. 

Nik: Because people said it was weird? 

David: Yeah, people said it was weird. You shouldn't do that. This kid's gonna be gay. That's what someone told me when I was dancing to her music.

Nik: And did that feel like a negative thing? Like gay was bad? 

David: Yes, 100%, growing up in the Midwest, being in Illinois, outside of Chicago, in the suburbs, it felt that way. 

Nik: Did you know any gay people? 

David: So that's my second icon, is actually my cousin, Justin. All right. He came out before me, and he's younger. He came out maybe two or three years before me. And without him, I don't even know if I'd be out of the closet. He introduced me to all of his gay friends back in 2014 and 2015.

 Nik: Did he live in the Illinois area as well? Yeah, he lived in like another suburb of Chicago, and he just had a bunch of gay friends. He was living his gay best life from junior high and even into high school. So, much earlier.

Nik: What was the secret recipe for him? How did how did it work for him and like be so difficult for you?  

David: I think it's because he couldn't hide the fact that he was gay. He had a very high pitched voice, flamboyant voice, from a very early age. And also, some of the things he liked were very feminine. And I think he just had more of those? So people sort of knew, and I think people today know that about people when they look at them, they'll stereotype, that person possibly.

Nik: Yeah, I remember doing that. One of my best friends growing up, who turned out to be gay, I remember texting his sister: “He’s gay.” I didn't mean it as a bad thing. I just meant it as almost like, I can see that, you know? Even maybe before he can see that.

Do you think that that's like, it's almost like pushing someone out of the closet? Like, I felt bad, when my friend found out that I had said that to his sister, he was upset, you know. And it was like, ooh, it was like as soon as I did it, I'm like, oh no.

David: Yeah. My advice is let them come out in their own time. Even if it seems laughable, even if it's someone like my cousin who came out and had family members go, “Well, we already knew. You didn't even have to tell us.” I think just allowing that person to say what they want and not personalize things and say statements that of what we think. 

Nik: Mm-Hmm. 

David: Um, I think is the best route that I've seen with me and my friends. Just giving that person some space and respect, I think is a best, best thing there.

Nik: Yeah, that makes sense. 

Speaking of how people see you, you guys took some beautiful photos this weekend. I was so glad to be involved in that last run of photos. I love taking pictures and I've never taken, uh—I don’t know that I've never taken graphic photos. I've definitely have taken some graphic photos in my day. But what's the plan for these pictures, is my question?

Donald: I'm going to save those pictures for the vault. I'm gonna look at each one. A few of them are going on Instagram. But since I have like my closest friends and family on Instagram, it's not gonna get too graphic 

Nik: No buttholes?  

Donald: No buttholes. No dick shots. None of that. It's most likely just gonna stay in the photo gallery, and I think it's something hot about that in and of itself. 

Nik: Okay. Okay, but see because part of me thinks like oh, this is perfect for this is perfect for grinder. 

Donald: One day. Maybe well, maybe if like some of them can make grinder, that would be hot. 

Nik: Yeah yeah, and any ideas where do these photos live for you? 

David: They're also a lot of the time just in my phone because, I am not on social media. When I actually quit drinking, I got off of Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Nik:  Oh my God. You're so smart. 

David: I miss it though. I miss the contact.

Nik: The contact, what do you mean? Like being in touch with people or you miss the contact of seeing the culture on Instagram? 

David: I guess there's a lot of people that will actually find guys and date people that they find on Instagram. And I'm missing out on that, and I might be missing out on—the other thing is memes. I miss seeing memes all the time. So I have people send them to me. 

But I think in regards to these photos, yeah, I might use it as like a Grindr profile picture or something. But most of the time I just keep them for myself, and I'll maybe send it to a guy or two that I'm interested in.

Nik: I just think it's so like, sex positive. It's so joyful that you guys have matching speedos and can like line up back-to-back with each other and take these great joyful loving photos. It's really not that different than, you know, dressing up in suits and taking a picture back to back in front of a restaurant or something. I just think it's so great and like it really does make me happy, and I was so glad that I got to be involved, too, because I love taking photos.

David: The photos turned out great, and this was a great place to take photos. Being in Las Vegas in a big house next to a bunch of mountains and palm trees, there's not really a better background than that. 

Nik: Okay, that's great. Is there anything y'all want to share about your story and being gay? 

David: Well, the last thing I'll say, because this has been on my mind maybe the past year or two, in regards to being gay and also sobriety, I recently lost my uncle. And he was a closeted gay man. He never really officially came out to anyone in our family.

But towards the end, when he sort of knew he might pass away, because he had pancreatitis due to alcoholism, he started opening up to me about his gay life in the 1970s and 1980s in Chicago. And oh, it was so cool to get to hear that and listen to it. But it's also so heartbreaking because he did eventually pass away.

He told me about different drag queens. He talked a little bit about how some of his friends died of AIDS. Right in front of my grandma too. And she had not known. He had never told her for 30 to 40 years. So it was just very powerful towards the end of his life.

I got to be of service, clean out his room after he passed away. I just saw myself in him cleaning out his room. I saw, you know, DUI documents, lots of bottles, just a big mess. And it reminded me of my own alcoholism and my own internalized homophobia. 

And like the takeaway for me is that I don't have to live that life. I get to be a proud gay sober man today and uh, that is what I'm so proud of. And the only thing I'd say to future generations and just anyone is just show up, you know, show up for your friends if they are struggling, in regards to sobriety and also gay rights, you know. I would say making sure we maintain our gay rights is super important. 

Because I don't want to forget what happened in the 1980s with AIDS. And forget that we only got to have gay marriage in the 2000s and the 2010s. Going forward that's what I want to remember. Just to continue that. 

Donald: To piggyback off of David: for future generations of gay men and women, I would say to be patient with yourself. You're not going to figure it out when you think you're going to figure it out. Carry love your heart and I love you unconditionally. 

There's people on this earth that loves you unconditionally. You just have to find your chosen family and that takes time. Don't stop before the magic happens and that's it. 

Nik: Amen. What a good place to end it on.

David: Yeah. 

Donald: Oh, and everybody can follow me at: Ohdamnitsdonny on Instagram. Thank you. 

[Screams.] I LOVE MY LIFE 

David: We're going to breakfast. 

Donald: I love my life!

Nik: Woo. What a rush, huh? Who’s sweating after that interview?

If you want to see some of those pics, I promise not buttholes or shafts, go to All the Greatest Gays on Instagram, and you can see Donny and Dave and their matching speedos. 

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