You didn't know that your dad was also gay?

 Nik talks with his longtime friend and role model, Christopher Lawrence, about being raised by a gay dad, how being proposed to changed everything, and what it's like to be a gay man in the entertainment industry. 

Transcript

Nik: Okay, I gotta spell this out. This is a disclaimer. We talk about adult things. Adult subjects. This is for adults. So if you’re not an adult, you should turn this off now. And if you’re a sensitive adult, beware. We’re gonna talk about sensitive things. 

Christopher: I work in a business where I think that it's assumed the costume designer is gonna be gay. I still try to keep it, you know, quiet. And it's funny, I'm married, and I wear a wedding ring, and it has forced me to be weirdly more out. Cause I had an incident with an actor when I was doing Ray Donovan. I was taking pictures of him doing a fitting and he clocked my wedding ring.

He said, “oh, are you married?” And I said, “yeah, I'm married.” And he said, “oh, do you have any kids?” And I said, “no, no, I'm too old.” And then a couple days later he came up to me and he said, “Hey. You're gay.” I said, yeah. He said, “well, why did we have that whole conversation about you married and not having kids?” And I said, “well, those are two different topics.”

So now I feel like if an actor says, are you married? I feel like I have to say yes…to a man.

Nik: What up Queens? Nik Shriner here with All the Greatest Gays trying something differently. I'm recording this from Prague on a little bike ride. I just listened to my conversation with Christopher Lawrence, who was pretty much the first, like, out and proud gay man that I knew. And it wasn't that he was even out out, but I knew he was gay.

We met in 2005. He was the costume designer to my dad's movie, and I was the PA starting from the bottom. Christopher and I ended up getting to work closely together because I was starting in the office and then moved to set when we started shooting, and I was often wrangling the talent. Like I was their liaison between the trailer and set.

So I would need to ask Christopher, “when are they gonna be ready? Please tell me. They're asking, I'm scared, they're yelling, and I am, I'm gonna be the one to blame!” 

Christopher really showed a great way to behave and be around, be a professional, and be joyful. I'm really excited for you to hear this episode.

Christopher is such a special person. He really, he really came with the goods. Fun fact, this was recorded a year ago, pride. So full circle, happy Pride, Queens. 

Christopher: So what's maybe unique about my story is my dad was gay. I was raised by my dad and my uncle Bill. I think they got together when I was like in second grade. 

Nik: Okay. So your dad and your biological mom had split up or what? 

Christopher: Yeah. My mom and dad met in a gay bar in Long Beach that up until Covid was still there.

Nik: Oh, what was it called? 

Christopher: Ripples.

Nik: Great. 

Christopher: So I could go, I could go to a gay bar and go, “Hey, my parents met here.” And my mom knew my dad was gay. My mom knew my dad was gay when she married him, but they just loved each other and were great friends and they were like, let's try it. 

This would've been in the early sixties, so my dad was, I I I, I only assume he was closeted. Having a kid, that was probably something he wanted to do. And back then, if someone said, “are you gay?” They'd be like, “Oh no, he is, he is. He's got a kid.” It wasn't like today where many men are married and have kids and they are gay, all those things are true, you know?

Nik: Mm-hmm. 

Christopher: Um, so it didn't really work as a marriage, but they stayed together until my mom remarried, and my mom actually remarried a guy that my dad introduced her to, um, and my new dad and mom lived on the bottom floor of a duplex. And my dad lived on the top floor, so he would like come down and read to me.

Nik: Oh, wow. And, and so they didn't have to go very far. It's not, they didn't have to take the elevator? 

Christopher: No, no. And then he moved like four blocks away, and I didn't really like my stepdad, so I ran away to the four blocks to my dad's house. 

Nik: And that was all in Long Beach? 

Christopher: Yeah. Yeah, my dad and my uncle Bill, you know, they couldn't be out. My dad was a school teacher in the seventies. There was something called the Briggs Initiative where they tried to outlaw gay people from teaching school. 

Nik: I've heard of that. 

Christopher: Yeah. So that's all kind of stuff that I grew up with. 

Nik: And you didn't know that your dad was also gay? He, they had, they hid it from you as well?

Christopher: Um, he told me he was gay when I was in eighth grade. 

Nik: Okay. 

Christopher: It was funny 'cause I said, uh, “does that mean you're a fag?” And he said, “no, no, I'm not a fag.” Which is funny. 

Nik: And it was funny because, because of how like mean that is or, or or because he didn't identify as a fag?

Christopher: Um. I dunno. My birthday's in the end of the year, so I started school really young. I remember being called fag in second grade, uh, a lot. And my dad had told me, whenever you hear a bad word, tell me the word, and I'll tell you what it means. I, uh, had asked him about fag and faggot and he said, “A faggot is a bundle of sticks, 

Nik: Or a cigarette. 

Christopher: Which is true. And a fag is a, a cigarette. And the reason faggots are bundles of sticks is because they would burn gay people with faggots.

So it's not the greatest story. So I was taught if you knew the definition of the words, then like they didn't really have power. So these kids were calling me faggot or fag in, in second grade. And the school principal was walking by and I said, oh, “Mrs. You know, tell them, tell them what a faggot is.” And she said, “We don't talk about these things in our school,” and like walked away, like hung me out to dry, right?

So I told my dad that story, and I changed schools. Like he didn't want me in that school. So having lived in that with, with two dads, I knew that they slept in the same bed, but I didn't know they were lovers. 'Cause you don't know that when you're 12, you don't know. When a kid is calling me a fag in second grade, they don't know what they're doing or saying.

But I did inherit a little bit of homophobia. One of my really great friends is an actor Alan Cumming, and he busted me and said, “you're homophobic.” Cause my husband was in the gay men's chorus, and I was like, “oh, the gay men's Chorus is so gay, you know?” And he like busted me. But it was really good to get called out on it and to be like, yeah.

I will, will say, I would very thankful to you to be included in a podcast called All the Greatest Gays. That's a moniker I gladly wear because like I said, I haven't always been like an out proud gay person. I'm getting better and better at it, but again, coming from like, a time when it wasn't such a cool thing.

It's nice to be asked, you know? And it's nice to be asked by you. 'Cause having that sort of self homophobia when straight guys are nice to me, I'm always surprised. 

Nik: Hmm. 

Christopher: Like on a film crew, I know it's kind of sad. 

Nik: It’s completely sad, 

Christopher: You know? But when a cameraman or a grip or somebody is nice to me, I'm always like, oh, oh, that's nice.

I don't expect that they will like me. And that's something that I was taught from the outside world. I guess the outside world said, “oh, well people aren't gonna like you 'cause you're gay.” I have a lot of judgment that people your age, they don't have that so much anymore. 

Nik: Right. 

Christopher: I was, um, moderating a panel for the costume designers guild about LGBTQIA+ experiences, and I said to like, this group of eight people:

“So, have any of you ever had any problems, been called names, or felt badly?” And they were all like, “No.” And I was really like shocked, I mean, I was so happy. 

But I've got so many stories of people treating me badly, being bullied, up to like being an adult and a director saying something horrible or actors, you know, so it's nice that that time is theoretically behind us, right. 

You know, there's a huge protest happening today, um, against Pride. 

Nik: Yeah. 

Christopher: There's a school in, uh, north Hollywood where they wanted to have like a Pride assembly and they were just gonna read from a book like the two dads kind of book, and somebody burned the pride flag at their school. 

And there's this huge protest happening this morning with lots of people that say, “leave our kids alone,” and like, it's terrible. So it's not over, but at least the people who are in the LGBTQIA+ community are feeling a little more empowered to just be like, “yeah, I am. And so what?” 

Nik: Yeah. What are you gonna do about it?

Christopher: Yeah. I think I was brought up more like, oh my god. You know?

Nik: Right. I'm curious on how that compares to growing up for you, because here you are in eighth grade, your dad comes out to you. How did that coming out and that turning point reflect on your own sexuality and what you knew about it? 

Christopher: Well, it's funny because you know, you never want your parents to be right.

And at some point in like ninth or tenth grade, I had a friend named Francisco, and he was gay. And my dad said, “oh, I, I know you and Frank are more than just friends. It's okay.” I was like, “Ew. No, that, no, no.” And we weren't boyfriends. 

Nik: Was Francisco Gay? Was Francisco 

Christopher: He was gay.

Nik: And you knew that he was gay?

Christopher: Yeah. Yeah. He was older. He was a senior. He, like, took me to my first gay bar. I went to my first gay bar when I was 14 years old. 

Nik: They just let you, they let you right in. Happy to have you, come on in.

Christopher: Luckily I was already probably six feet tall, and they let me in. And actually I went home with someone from that bar in San Diego, and I mean, it's kind of crazy 'cause I had to lie about my age, but I realized I can't say I'm 16 'cause I don't know how to drive. So I lied and said I was 15, and the guy still took me home. 

Nik: I'm sure he did.

Christopher: Of course, I called my mom and told her I was staying at a friend's house. Uh, and the next morning he dropped me off like miles from my house. It's like, “this is as far as I go.”

But I had my first boyfriend when I was 15. 

Nik: Was that someone at school or someone, um, in the world? It wasn't Francisco? 

Christopher: It wasn't Francisco. And no, it wasn't someone from school. That actually was, um, I guess I always liked older men. It was somebody who was 24. I was then living with my mom. Uh, my dad did not have a very good breakup with my Uncle Bill, and so he needed some alone time.

So I lived with my mom for a couple years, and then I moved back up to my dad's in 11th grade. That was in Pasadena, then he lived in Pasadena. 

Nik: Okay. 

Christopher: So it was somebody I had met up there, and I still didn't tell my dad. Like he would say, “oh, I, I know you were looking at my, uh, magazines and it's okay.” And it'd be like, “no, I wasn't.” He, like, kept wanting me to be gay.

He was like poking at it, trying to poke it out. Yeah. So when it came time where I was crazy, in love with someone, and, you know, I mean, I wanted to share it. I told my mom, I didn't tell my dad. 

Nik: What an interesting dynamic that the person, who I'm sure he just wanted to be there for you and wanted to like make it, make it okay.

Christopher: Yeah. Knowing my dad, he really just wanted to make it about him. It is that funny thing where people say, “oh, it must have been so great to have a gay dad,” and I was like, no! Maybe if he hadn't have been prompting me, like wanting me to be gay. 

Nik: Prompting. Yeah. Maybe. 

Christopher: I remember one time we were at a gay bar together, and someone said, “oh my God, that guy's so cute.”

And my dad said thank you. And he goes, “What, did you cut his hair?” And he goes, “no, that's my son.” So startling. 

Nik: Did it eventually get easier between the two of you? After you were in love and after…?

Christopher: We just had a regular, uh, dysfunctional father son relationship. Just classic. I don't think I ever like went to him for love advice. 

Actually, my mom gave me really nice advice when I told her I was gay. She said, your dad has had three big relationships, and I've had three big relationships, so you don't have to do what you hear in the press. 'Cause you know, then it was just like gay people were just slutty, trashy no good.

They were terrible people. And she said, you know, your dad and I are basically the same. So you don't have to buy into that. You can make it what you want it to be. And I thought that was nice advice. Good, you know, smart advice. 

Nik: That is good advice. You don’t have to be what you think you have to be.

Christopher: If you're gonna be gay, you're not what all those other people are saying gay is. You can be your own thing. 'Cause your father was his own thing. In that way, he was a good example. 

Nik: And has that advice proven true to you? I mean, you had been married now for…

Christopher: almost 15, I don’t know, since 2008. We were together two years before we got married.

Nik: Okay. Yeah. Before he proposed. Yeah. What was that proposal like? 

Christopher: Oh gosh. I had been away on a, on location on a movie, and I came back to to fit an actor. So I was home for the weekend. It was the first time I had gone away on location since we had been together. And I think he just panicked. He was like, “oh my God, I gotta lock this down.”

So I had done a fitting and then we had to go to like this party, and it was like getting later, later at night. And he was like, what, when am I gonna do this? So we were at some cheesy little diner. It was called the French Market, the West Hollywood people will know the place. And um, he popped out like a little box.

And honestly, I don't remember anything from that. It was never in my fantasies. That's not something gay people were allowed to think about. We, we can't get married. People would have commitment ceremonies, sure. Um, but the idea that somebody had asked me to marry them and gave me a ring blew me away. 

I didn't change the way I felt about him when we got married, but being proposed to really changed everything for me. And it was nice 'cause it was actually before it was legal, so he just did it 'cause he wanted to marry me. And then luckily by the time we got around to it, it was legal. 

Nik: He wanted to express himself in that way. What a beautiful surprise that must've been for you, that must've cracked your heart wide open.

Christopher: Yeah, it really made a difference. And it was interesting 'cause there's another person in my life that I used to say was the love of my life. We were like 18. I was the first person he had ever been with, and he just was everything. We stayed friends. He was at my wedding. Um, but at a certain point, like just a year before I met Mark, my husband, I said, you know, I need to stop saying that Rob is the love of my life.

I need to make space for the love of my life. And it like,  tt came really quickly. 

Nik: All of a sudden the universe heard your 

Christopher: Yeah, yeah. 

Nik: Heard your boundary request. 

Christopher: Yeah. And somebody new came in. 

Nik: So that's two. Um, and, and this person is still close with you. Do you know— 

Christopher: Actually, we're not talking anymore.

Nik: That's so funny. In my head. I find myself wanting to, like, find through lines. I think I'm having a moment right now where being an honorary member of, of the gays, I try to make sense of it all. It just comes back to we are all different. 'Cause I'm like all gays are good with staying friends with their previous partners.

That's just not true. 

Christopher: Oh, do you think that's more true that with straights?

Nik: That’s what it seems. 

Christopher: I can see where that seems that way. I'm friends with everyone I've dated. Um, like I said, he was at my wedding. What happened was a little bit after we got married, he came and stayed with us in our house in Palm Springs, and his partner did not like the shorthand that Rob and I had.

So he sort of created a situation where Rob had to no longer communicate with me. 

Nik: I see. 

Christopher: Yeah. So, which makes me very sad. 

Nik: Sure. 

Christopher: I'm sad that we can't be friends. I feel very confident that he still loves me as deeply as I love him still. 

Nik: And the challenging dynamics, it's, it's, it's, it's his partner.

Christopher: Yeah. This is gonna be a gross generalization, but I think that gay people are less strict about sexual boundaries. So the idea that I'm friends with you and you, and you and I dated all of you and we, so we've all had sex and here's, here's my husband. And my husband is not threatened at all by that.

And I feel like what I hear from the straight world is like that's, that is threatening.

Nik: Right. Do you think that, do you think that general think that is queer—and, and maybe that's where my own like personal stereotyping of like, oh, that's just the way that they are. Um, do you think that that's gay men or gay people?

Christopher: I think that as soon as you start saying that out loud, like even when I said it out loud, it's not all gay men.

Nik: Right.

Christopher: I think the straight, straight people think like, oh, all gay men, they all sleep around with all their friends and all that, you know? They're all swingers. Yeah, no.

Nik: No. 

Christopher: I was at a party recently where I was with gay actors and straight actors, and the two straight actors were talking about a sex party they had been at.

I had met them both previously, and I was pretty sure they were straight, but I said, “Um, straight sex party?” And they were like, “yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.” I said, “oh, I didn't know those still happened. Recently?” And he was like, “yeah, yeah. A couple weeks ago.” So these two straight guys had both been to different sex parties.

Nik: Wow. 

Christopher: Everybody is different. 

Nik: I think that sometimes it can be misconstrued that if you're gay, you get it. 

Christopher: Right. 

Nik: And if you're straight, you don't get it.

Christopher: Yeah. It's just people are people, and some people you know, you don't know it. There's plenty of things I don't know about your experiences as a guy.

Nik: Right. 

Christopher: I was lucky enough to work on To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything! Julie Numar, which was one of the first big drag movies. 

Nik: Sure. I saw it. 

Christopher: And as a young gay guy, I did not like drag queens. 

Nik: Hmm. 

Christopher: I didn't wanna be like…whenever you saw the Gay Pride Parade on TV, they had dykes on bikes. And they had drag queens, and that represented all of the gay community.

And I don't like wearing women's clothing. 

It was weird. 'Cause on To Wong Foo the actors weren't always available. So like, I was the assistant costume designer, and the designer would say, “put this on.” And I would just be like, oh. You know, I'd have to, I'd have to put on like these frocks and be like, eh, you know, but I didn't like it.

But To Wong Foo is when I first really met and worked with drag queens and people who were, uh, transitioning. And when I saw them, I mean, one of the black queens we had, we put her in a dress that had been on Iman. She was so exquisite, so beautiful. Right? Like she was a beautiful woman. And I saw the bravery and the courage and the, and just thought, oh my God, I can't imagine what that could be like.

Like just being gay was a struggle for me. 

Nik: Sure. 

Christopher: And I had a gay dad and a mom who I knew was gonna be okay with me being gay. 

Nik: Yeah. 

Christopher: And it was a huge struggle for me, 'cause I was kind of a religious kid, but the idea that like, not even being in your right body, and then being misgendered and all that. It made me have huge respect for the drag and trans community.

And they are different, you know? 

Nik: Sure. 

Christopher: Drag and trans, but it really, really opened my eyes and I was just really ashamed that I had ever had that judgment. But that's from just, you know, being ignorant and not knowing 

Nik: Well, and this is like where you're talking about the pendulum, where it's either one side or the other, but there's all of these layers of color in between.

Christopher: Yeah. And hopefully as you grow, um, there are all kinds of places where I thought I got it. And then, something happens and you go, “oh, now I get it. I thought I knew, but I've just been taught another lesson and see how much I didn't know now.” 

Nik: And do you feel like that's happening now? More and more as we are seeing, experiencing all the genders. You mentioned when you were first coming out and getting connected to your sexuality, you were either gay or straight. 

Christopher: Yeah. Yeah. 

Nik: Either man or woman.

Christopher: Yeah. I feel like there's so many choices now that it would've been, I don't know that it would've benefited from that, but maybe I would've had more freedom, because it was black and white for me, it was gay or straight or bi.

And I think, at least in my generation, it's like every gay kid first said, “oh, I'm bi.” You know, and I remember I was walking to my college class, and I was crossing the street from where I had parked and I saw this person, it was in that era of like when bike shorts and things like that were kind of fashion.

And I saw like this person jogging towards me and like a tank and bike shorts. And I was like, oh, I'm gonna slow. I'm gonna slow down a little bit and check 'em out. And so I was like waiting and then I realized it was a girl and I went, oh. And I started crossing the street and like halfway across the street I went, “oh shit. I'm gay.” 

Nik: Oh my gosh. 

Christopher: Because at that point, I guess I thought I was  maybe, I thought I was bi. 

Nik: I see. 

Christopher: You know, and when I realized, oh, it was a girl, so I didn't care. Right. Then I, you know, 

Nik: That's funny. I had that yesterday. I was like slowing down, saw the pony, saw the blonde ponytail, and then I'm like, oh, that's, that's also a guy with a blonde ponytail, you know?

What would you say, how might you reparent yourself looking back? 

Christopher: That's funny. That's one of those questions that you see on, on RuPaul's Drag Race. 

Nik: Is it? 

Christopher: Yeah, like what advice would you give the five-year-old you and all that, you know?

Nik:  Oh, sure. I think about that for myself too. 

Christopher: Um, I don't know. I. My parents never told me not to be gay.

The weird thing is I knew that they would always be accepting of me, but for some reason, when I was a little boy, my mom tells the story. I was like in kindergarten, and I got up on a Sunday and put on a suit, and my mom said, “what are you doing? Where are you? Where are you going?” And I said, “I'm going to church.”

Like I just went to church on my own. 

Nik: At five years old? 

Christopher: Yeah. As like a little tiny kid, I walked down the street, you know? And back then you could do that when you were five and your parents would let you 

Nik: Yeah, sure.

Christopher: I signed up for vacationbBible school all the time, and church camp.

And my best friend in high school who is straight and is married and all that, but I'm not sure. I think he's one of those people that just wouldn't allow himself to be gay. Um, 'cause we were so tight, you know, and did everything together for two years, had lunch every day together. We were best friends.

And that was at, that was at a point where I'm like, well, I know I love this person, but do I wanna kiss this person? I don't know. 'Cause you know I'm 14.

Nik:  That was your experience? 

Christopher: Yeah. 'cause I'm like 14, 15 years old. I know I love them like crazy. And we were in our school choir together and part of our final would be we had to sing a solo. And he said, “I'm dedicating this to you.” And then he sang, “This Song’s For You.” 

Nik: Hmm. 

Christopher: Like, that's pretty special. 

Nik: Yeah. 

Christopher: You know, um, but it was the religion thing, the church thing that was so hard for me to reconcile my sexuality.

Nik: Because of all the messages that the church would give about it. 

Christopher: Yeah, that’s I’m going to hell.

And that it's wrong and it's terrible and that it just was an abomination, you know, like that. My parents didn't care. 

Nik: Right. 

Christopher: And at that point my parents didn't know, and I had this boyfriend, as I said, when I was 15, and my father and I were not getting along. It was awful, and I had no reason to break up with this, this guy, but I thought I was being punished by God, so I broke off with him.

'Cause I thought that's why my, why my home life was so terrible. You know, was because 

Nik: of this boyfriend, 

Christopher: Because I was gay. 

Nik: Right.

Christopher: And so God was punishing me. 

Nik: I see. 

Christopher: Um, and it wasn't until I met another guy who, who really helped me literally see the light and say, you know, God doesn't make mistakes. Love is love.

God is love.

Nik: God don't make junk. God don’t make junk.

Christopher: Yeah. And God is love, you know, and judge not. And that's what really helped me. And that's more when I came out to my parents, was probably in my senior year of high school saying, okay. I'm okay. I don't have to be some abomination. I can just be me.

I really wanted to have sex with people I was in love with and not just anybody, which maybe saved my life. 'Cause you know, I started having sex in the late seventies, and I really wanted to be in love, you know? Sure.  

Nik: You wanted to be special because it was sacred. Yeah. 

Christopher: Yeah. 

Nik: Was your being drawn to church, your desire to have that connection with God?

Christopher: I feel like I would've had—I probably had a connection to God, right? That's what got me there. 

Nik: Sure. 

Christopher: I still do. 

Nik: Right. 

Christopher: But I'm a really social person, and I think it was a place where I could be social, you know? 

Nik: Same, same, you know, I, I lost my virginity through my church. 

Christopher: What was the priest's name? Kidding. Kidding. I will say that with all the banning of drag queens, a lot more priests have molested children than drag queens. 

Nik: Totally. I think a lot. 

Christopher: Yeah. Thousands and thousands and thousands more. 

Nik: So part of what drew you was a place to be in community with others who loved, who also loved God? 

Christopher: I think it was. Yeah. Yeah, I would, let's hope that was part of it. And I would say that you can find spirituality everywhere, and I do live my life spiritually, and Jesus is the sort of the foundation of that for me. I guess with all relationships it's complicated. I have such faith in that the universe wants what's best for me.

So when I am interviewing for a job or just things are happening in my life, I know that I feel like there's a safety net. The universe isn't gonna, isn't gonna drop me. 

Nik: Right. 

Christopher: As I got older, uh, there was a thing called a Course in Miracles.

Nik: Yeah. 

Christopher: Which was living your life through love, not through fear.

And it was, uh, Christic based. And I took a lot of, a lot of solace there. And I felt like that's when I found my tribe really. 'Cause it was still about Jesus. Uh, but it wasn't about judging people. And that's where I learned that in the Bible, the original Aramaic, the word for sin was an archery term and it meant you missed the mark.

I mean, that's such a more loving idea. 

Nik: Accepting, yeah.

Christopher: You know, like you didn't sin, you're not going to hell. You just didn't get, you didn't hit the bullseye this time. Right. Do better next time. Yeah. 

Nik: You just missed a little bit. 

Christopher: Yeah. You know, and we can all do better.

Nik: I just feel like Christopher Lawrence is such a good role model. He was then and he still is. Love that guy. If you wanna see some pictures of Christopher from when we first met, way back when in 2005, I was just a wee 18-year-old starting in show business, go to All the Greatest Gays on Instagram. 

Please like and subscribe to this show. You can also leave a comment. Let me know which episodes are your favorite so far. This is number four. We're gonna release an episode every Sunday until I run that episode. So thanks so much, adios, and keep coming back.