Do gays have more money than the straights?

Nik chats with his 90 year old “uncle” John Bowab.  A man with an endless supply of love, an extraordinary career as a director, and a famous Hollywood Hills house to pornos!

Transcript

Nick: This is a warning. This is an adult podcast with adult content and adult themes. If you don't want to hear that, turn it off.

Uncle John: The probability of somebody being straight and single at 90, which I am, is unlikely. I have a feeling that most people who reach 90 and are still single most likely had either gay existence or a possible avoiding the subject. So I'm not avoiding anything, you know.

Nick: Hey, what up Queens? Nick Shriner here with All the Greatest Gays. This is the podcast where I interview my gay friends and family about their lives.

And today is very exciting 'cause it's Family Day. This is my Uncle John. He was there at Cedar Sinai the day I came out. And he's been there for me my whole life, in more ways than one. How do you introduce someone who is very near and dear to you, and also this extraordinary professional person and philanthropic asset to the community—the entertainment community, the gay community?

I'll just try and summarize him. He's been a director of Broadway and most notably, sitcom television. He's directed dozens of classic sitcoms and hundreds of episodes. If I could describe John Bowab to you, he's this like cowboy mid-Atlantic James Bond. You know, he's like a man of mystery, a man of sophistication and style.

He's a no bullshit, cut right through it. But he's polite, he's kind, he's eloquent, he speaks with distinction. He's tall with excellent posture. He probably wouldn't like me saying this, but Uncle John may be one of the oldest living gay men. I don't know. I don't have the census on that, but God love him.

Please enjoy Uncle John Bowab. 

Nick: I've been really excited to talk to you about what it's like to have been alive for this long and to have been gay. And you know, a lot of people don't know that that's part of who you are. 

Uncle John: I am not surprised, and you hope you'll forgive my voice, but I'm coming down with a bit of laryngitis. I'm not surprised that people don't know. It's probably one of the more difficult, yet one of the easiest things to get around. Have a girl on your arm one day, and people just automatically assume that you're straight. Anyway, it's a privilege to be with you today. I've known you since you were a child. 

Nick: I believe you were at my birth. 

Uncle John: Yes, I was. 

Nick: You were at my graduation. 

Uncle John: Yes. And I've always been so proud of what you've accomplished in your life. 

Nick: Yeah. Well, you know that I love you very much and have loved you for a long time.

And I remember when I moved to New York, and you were there. And you opened the door, and you hadn't seen me since I graduated high school.

Uncle John:  Mm-hmm. 

Nick: You said, “oh my god, Nicholas, you're tall.” 

Uncle John: Well, as another tall man who was taller at one point of his life, I remember when I was proud and happy when people said, “how tall are you?”

When I'd say six two, and now I have to say, well six one. 

Nick: Historically you're six two.

Uncle John: Maybe six and a half inches, you know. But I'm just astounded at how tall you are. You know? I think we must be pretty close. 

Nick: We are, we are. We're getting closer. 

I remember, 'cause I was a short kid always growing up and being a little kid, running around the apartment, running around the old house and that. 

Uncle John: When you are talking about the old house, are you talking about the big house? 

Nick: The big house, yeah. The pool house. 

Uncle John: The pool house. Yes. 

Nick: The best house ever. 

Uncle John: There was, it was a spectacular house. 

Nick: The porno house.

Uncle John: I'll give you. Yeah. A lot of pornos made there. 

Nick: And you were able to use that house for a lot of benefits. You hosted a lot of parties, a lot of charities there.

Uncle John: Yeah. It was a period where I was very, very comfortable with lending out the house. I had it for military events. I had it for all kinds of charities, and I think that sort of made me relax a little and not panic having this big house. It was a very big house. And it had a staircase that took it below the pool.

Nick: How could I ever forget that? It also had a gun range under there too. 

Uncle John: I rented the house out a lot. Sometimes for legitimate causes, sometimes for pornographic causes. Pornography paid a lot, you know? 

Nick: Who, who would've thought?

Uncle John: Who would've thought indeed. Some of my friends knew that I was using the house, but it paid incredibly well. If you were doing it for a straight situation, it might not pay as much. But say that it's for, uh, a porno or a gay and you get 20 times more.

Nick: Are you saying the gays have more money than the straights? 

Uncle John: I think very possibly that a gay man would have more money. They'd have a better shot at it than a straight man who was supporting a wife and a child, or two children, or three or four, you know. But no, I think that, having that house just made me feel so great. I don't know why, but it did. 

Nick: Well it sounds like that house really gave you a chance to be of service to your friends.

Uncle John: Oh yeah. 

Nick: And to causes that made a difference for you ,because I'm sure you gave them a hefty discount, if not, just let them. I know you hosted a lot of events to benefit.

Uncle John: I hosted a lot, 

Nick: HIV and you know, all those events. Drag shows. 

Uncle John: I remember somebody had never met me. And I was surprised when they said, “I love being at your house.” And I said, “I don't remember you being there.” And they said, “oh yeah, we were just in a back room. You didn't know anything about it.” And I thought, oh God. I remember once somebody brought somebody who was not so honest, and I happened to be on the balcony overlooking the living room. And I looked down, and I saw him putting stuff into his pocket.

He was walking around stealing, and I had to go to him and say, “empty your pockets.” And of course, I did it in a very butch, strong way. 

Nick: Cowboy, John. 

Uncle John: Oh, yes. I was very strong. 

Nick: That's right. You were six two, but six four in your cowboy boots, right?

Uncle John: Yeah. I don't wear those anymore. Heels are not my thing now.

Nick: No, no. Did you ever wear six inch heels? Did you ever do any drag shows? 

Uncle John: No. God, no. I think, that being gay does not necessarily mean being a sissy. 

Nick: Right. 

Uncle John: You know, it doesn't mean you can't be a sissy, and sissy is such a strange word. I can't think of an alternative.

Nick: No. It's certainly onomatopoeiac. It sounds like the house was also like a real haven where you could have all your friends have your big parties 

Uncle John: I think the fact that I had a house that I was super proud of, that was one of a kind, sort of gave me a boost. It made me feel very comfortable without being an asshole. I could use the house and I did for great reasons.

Nick: How did being gay factor into all that? Did you feel like, did it factor in at all?

Uncle John: Well, it did factor into it. It gave me the freedom to use the house for whatever I wanted.

Nick: Right.

Uncle John: So I used it for a lot of straight things, but I did definitely use it for a lot of gay things. 

Nick: As far as work is concerned, you haven't been completely out, but when they come to a big gay party at the house, you know, did that give you permission to be a little more open? 

Uncle John: I don't think I ever said, “Hey, here I am, I'm gay, accept me for what it is.” 

Nick: Mm-hmm. 

Uncle John: I think I presented myself as responsible, fun-loving, and that's important things. I like to have a good time. And I also had a good career, when I first bought the house. I was not as successful as a director as I eventually became, of course. Originally I was a producer. I'm a living proof that you can get ahead if you stick to your guns. With me, I started in the mail room at MCA. One thing led to another, to another. I remember when I was in the mail room, that I had one producer who was very nasty to me. Nothing made me happier than a year after he was not nice to me, I was his boss. So you just never know. I think that's part of the magic of being both straight and being gay is the ability to share it, and not be afraid of sharing it. 

Nick: I think that is part of your magic, is that you are unequivocally lovable. You put your love out directly in front of you. 

Uncle John: Mm-hmm. 

Nick: And you're this commanding presence. It's almost like it doesn't even matter, gay or straight. I just becomes part. I don't even remember how it came up, but it came up, or out, that you were gay. And I thought: my uncle John?

Uncle John: Uncles are gay.

You know, I think if anyone reaches a certain age and they're gay, most people put it together. But there are some people who just never will, you know, they wouldn't accept it on any other basis except it, well, he's Uncle John, 

Nick: some people just might not accept if it were completely out in the open. How have you seen homophobia change?

Uncle John: I think I'm from a different generation, when you go back 40, 50, 60 years, 70 years.

Nick: Mm-hmm.

Uncle John: Um, you realize that we're much more open than we used to be.

Nick: Sure.

Uncle John: Much more so. And I think it's all for the good. I think that a lot of people who maybe weren't as adaptable as I was, have lost out on their lives because they didn't want to say “I'm gay.” I think it was to my advantage having been around it so much. I was comfortable with it. I think also being tall, dark and handsome, I was able to live a life that possibly somebody who didn't have courage would not have been able to live. And it did take courage. You didn't want to be pointed out. Didn't want people say, “oh, he is a faggot.” So at this point in my life, I think I don't care. 

Nick: Going back 50, 60, 70 years, was there somebody who gave you the courage that you talked about to be unequivocally yourself in that way? 

Uncle John: Yeah, I had very few relationships. 

Nick: Romantic relationships? 

Uncle John: I only had one person that I would've said yes, he was a lover, because even then we didn't quite use the word lover. 

Nick: You had relationships that you enjoyed, but you didn't necessarily share with the world. What did the two of you call it between each other? If you weren't lovers, what were you to each other? Your sweetie, your, your soulmate, your…?

Uncle John: No, I don't remember what we ever said.

I think you were just part of a…mine did not last long. Because the one person that I had what I call a good relationship, an honest relationship with, unfortunately died young. He was older than I was, but he died of a cerebral hemorrhage. 

Nick: Mm. 

Uncle John: And it was a shock to me. I think that that freedom, to look at a relationship and wanting to make it work, can be both exhilarating and also sad if it doesn't work. 

Nick: Sure. 

Uncle John: You know, at this point in my life, if I saw somebody that I thought was terrific, I just smile because I've got good teeth, you know?

Nick: And you do have good teeth. Good teeth, good hair. Good posture. 

Uncle John: Amazing, isn't it? Isn’t it, that I've got, it's miraculous. I've got all this hair, and I've got friends who would kill to have my hair and to have my teeth. But I'm saying I'd kill to be 40 years younger. 

Nick: How is it difficult to be 90 years old? Most men don't make it to 90, let alone most gay men, right? 

Uncle John: Yeah. 

Nick: I mean, you've lived through the HIV epidemic. 

Uncle John: I've lived through a lot. I'm very grateful to have reached 90, had the friends—had, and have—the friends that I have now.

I'm very fortunate. Like tonight, if I didn't have any dinner plans, I don't think twice about calling somebody and say, “would you like to have dinner?” That's freeing. It frees you up to lead an easier life, 

Nick: It also, I even feel silly for asking, but being gay doesn't factor into that. 

Uncle John: No, no. I think being a decent person has to be the first part. Having young people respect you and simultaneously love you for being who you are is a great joy to me. I like being liked, 

Nick: You're very likable. 

Uncle John: I work at it. 

Nick: How would you work at it? ‘Cause I don't believe you. I feel like it just comes out of you naturally. 

Uncle John: No, I think you have to work at it, I just had a birthday celebration, and I was shocked at how many people came. I was overwhelmed, and yet I shouldn't have been, because I knew that everyone who was there was a friend. You know, I didn't just invite every Tom, Dick, and Harry.

Nick: Your birthday party was so special, because there were so many people there in 2023, who love you, who care about you. But it was wild to look back at those photos and those videos of all the people that could have been there. Not only, you know, that have passed away, but maybe live in different places. But you could fill the rooms. I also think about, I mean, we have barely even touched on your career directing hundreds of episodes of television.

Uncle John: Yeah. well, television and California made a big change in my life. I wouldn't advise it for everybody. I had a good career directing in the theater and producing in the theater, but one day I thought to myself: I really want to do more. And more meant television. And that prompted me to move from New York to California. And it's the best decision I ever made. I love California. I love the openness. God knows, I love New York. How can you not love New York? I mean, when I was growing up and people would say to me, “well, what do you wanna be when you grow up?” You only say, “well, I want to live in New York.” Which is the truth. 

Nick: This was in Rhode Island? 

Uncle John: Yes, in Rhode Island. And I graduated from college in Rhode Island, 

Nick: That was all you wanted to be, was be in New York.

Uncle John: Yes. I wanted to be in New York, because New York had a glamor. But one day you find out, so does California. You know, I don't know that I could ever go back to New York, but I will never regret it. 

Nick: Mm-hmm. I remember the last time we were in New York together was maybe four or five years ago, just before he gave up that apartment. Mm-hmm. And I was coming to visit, and you let me stay on the couch while you were in the in the bedroom.

And you said, “Nicholas, I never share.”  

Uncle John: what? 

Nick: “I never share.”

Uncle John: Oh.

Nick: You let people stay there when you're not there. 

Uncle John: Yes. 

Nick: But I was fortunate enough to get to stay there with you, which is a lot of fun. 

Uncle John: I remember that. I like hearing the term Uncle John, and I'm very pleased with my two nephews and my two nieces I do know. That having those relationships, has made my life a lot better. I like hearing from, I mean, you call me Uncle John, although I'm not your uncle, 

Nick: You've got a lot of love in your life no matter how, no matter which way you slice it. 

Uncle John: Well, I've been lucky on a lot of things. 

Nick: Has there been many people that have said to you: “you helped give me permission to be who it is that I am, to be gay.” Or like for example, when they see your name directed by John Boab, and they know that you're gay. Has that ever come up that, that you gave them courage or permission? 

Uncle John: Not really, no. I think I just led the life that I led. 

Nick: But you've never heard from anyone that by just being who it is that you are, happened to be gay, that you gave them permission to share it as who they are? 

Uncle John: No, not really. 

Nick: Well, I'll have you know that many people do feel that way. That seeing directed by John Boab on the Cosby Show was like, wow, I know that John's gay and that is empowering.

Uncle John: I think the ability to say “directed by” was very important to me. I mean, I started in the mail room, and you didn't go from the mail room to a directing job. You went from the mail room to another thing, to another thing, and one day you find somebody says, “well, why don't you direct it,” and it changes your life, you know, for the better. I know that I must have come along at the right time. I think the move to California cemented that, you know? New York was wonderful for theater, and I loved theater ,and I did so many shows where I loved directing.

But nothing compared to making a comedy work. That was a joy, an absolute joy when you could do a scene. It helped if you had producers who respected you, and if they did, they sort of let you do what you wanted to do. I do think that there is some gays who will only work with gays, but I think in the truth, a talented person doesn't quite look at it as gay or straight. And that's what this whole thing's about. I mean, I didn't look at my career in any way, as being a career that was promulgated on being gay. I don't think I ever did. 

Nick: I don't think so either. What a blessing that you didn't have to identify in that way in order to make it work. 

Uncle John: Sometimes, being gay open doors, because you're more welcome. And sometimes I think it gets in the way. I don't think it should, but it does. 

Nick: Do you think it gets in the way because people are homophobic? 

Uncle John: Sometimes. Yes. 

Nick: What are other ways it could get in the way? 

Uncle John: That ambition can be hurtful. You know, you can want something so bad that you'll blow the opportunity. Being cool is a blessing. I think the fact that you even do this podcast, with the theme that you have, is original. I don't know anybody else who would've sat down and said, “I'm gonna see why gays do well or why they don't.” 

Nick: Part of me was like, maybe I shouldn't do this podcast. Like, I thought maybe it would be inappropriate or insensitive, you know. 

Uncle John: I think the podcast will be useful to a lot of people. There's something about putting it out in the open, not being afraid. And I think the fact that we have a gay man and a straight man talking openly is to advantage for both of us. I mean, I don't have to prove anything. And you don't have to prove anything except that you wanna be good. And if you want to be good, you'll be good. You know? 

Nick: That's nice. Well, it's just one of those things where it's like we've never talked about it. 

Uncle John: Mm-hmm. 

Nick: But it's a part of who you are, and I love you for all of the ways you are.

So I'd wanna be open about hearing about it. I didn't know that you've had one great love in your life. 'Cause in just because in my mind, I imagine you having lots of loves in your life. 

Uncle John: Well, when we're done with this interview, I'll take you and show you a picture of the one great love. 

Nick: Oh good. I can't wait to see it. 

Uncle John: Okay. 

Nick: Okay.

Uncle John:  I'm happy. 

Nick: Me too. I love you, Uncle John. 

Uncle John: I love you too. 

Nick: What a life. What a guy, huh? I hope you enjoyed Uncle John.

He's been a constant and consistent presence in my life, and I'm so glad I got to interview him today.

Uncle John had like a famous poker game. My dad would play, my grandpa, my godfather, and all kinds of people. It was infamously wild ,because they would play all these silly games with crazy rules and wild cards.

I finally got to play when I was old enough. And I was in a hand, and I was getting a little rich for my blood. So I was chasing like a miracle royal flush. So I folded, you know, in my mind responsibly, and lo and behold, the motherfucking card came up. 

And I was like, ah, I could have had a royal flush. And Uncle John was so, he was visually mad at me for folding. “Nicholas, you should never fold if there's a chance.”

And I just feel like that's the perfect metaphor. Like, don't quit before the miracle. Don't leave before the magic happens. Don't fold if you got a chance.

 So sorry for yelling. It's the only time I've ever seen Uncle John actually mad at me.

Uncle John, if you're listening to this. I love you. 

Hey, thank you so much for listening. If you wanna support the show, please share it with a friend. You're also welcome to like and subscribe and comment and rate and, uh, yeah, I think that's it. Happy pride to all those who are celebrating and keep coming back. Adios.