Asexual means you don’t want to be with anyone?

This week: the extraordinary comedian, actress, singer-songwriter Margaret Cho joins us to talk about all the kinds of gay she's been and how she's the number one fan of her own work. 

Transcript

Nik: Just a reminder that this is an adult podcast for adults by adults. So if you're not adult, go, go away.

Margaret: When you're in a community where everybody's gay, it's so cool. You feel like a serious level of comfort and love and freedom and home so. It's almost worth all of the alienation from society when you can find those places. And I think I found that like when I went to Provincetown in, in 1986, I was 18 and it was so profound, and I'm going there next week.

So it's like a place that I go most summers. It's a gay resort. It's like a gay city, and it's just really important to have that kind of place That's really, really remarkable. 

Nik: I think that's what's drawn me to the gay people in my life is there's a level of acceptance that comes with being gay. A level of honesty and openness and acceptance that I think is not the norm in society.

Margaret: Yeah, that's true. 'Cause we have to fight against a lot. So we're very welcoming to all battles. 

Nik: Yeah. I feel like an honorary member, you know. I still am blown away at how straight I am. I love the gay community, and— 

Margaret: Right, but it's not contagious. 

Nik: It's not contagious. 

Margaret: That’s the thing is like it's not contagious like, I think that's what the hetero world fears about gayness, is that it's contagious or that somehow you can teach gayness to children and they'll be gay.

It's not contagious. It's actually not possible to be gay, if you're not gay, 

Nik: Right? You can try all you want. 

Margaret: You can try all you want, but it, it's just not right. It doesn't work.

Nik: Yuhoo. Hey, it's all the greatest gays. What up queens? I'm your host, Nik Shriner. This is the podcast where I interview my gay friends about their gay lives. You know, we try to keep it gay here, and if you're new, welcome. You found us, da, da da. You've chosen a good episode to come to. This is Margaret Cho.

You know her. We all know her. She's extraordinary. Come on. She's been all kinds of gay in her life, and we get to go into many of those little facets. Margaret really is a true blue artist and she's a gay icon, for real. Evolving, unfurling, transforming. Man, I've looked up to her for a long time, so I'm absolutely honored that she came on to talk about all the things she's talked about.

There's a lot to go into, so I won't even really hold us up any longer. Please enjoy her wonderfulness, Margaret Cho. 

Nik: Yeah. I was so excited to talk to you because you're my first, you're, you're representing all Bi people. Uh, as far as this show is concerned, tell me how does it feel to be bisexual? 

Margaret: It's super confusing and it, it's really a drag actually.

I find it really annoying and I don't really like it. I would rather be one or the other a lot of the times, and also I don't think bi is quite accurate either, because I think there's more than two genders. I think gender is really a spectrum and there's not a binary in gender. I think that a lot of the ways, now, modern times, they say that bisexuality means your gender and anybody else's gender, so it's leaves it more open.

That's probably the better thing, but I often think bi, bisexuality is annoying and I wish I could decide, but it's also okay. 

Nik: I definitely have more questions about the second half of that, but I guess I just wanna take it apart, um, because I'm not bisexual, but I'm also annoyed by bisexuality. 

Margaret: Yeah.

Super. 

Nik: It's like, it's like, well, what? What is it? It's because it's also super gay. It almost seems like the gateway kind of, because like some of the guys that I've interviewed have talked about like, oh, first I was bi, you know? Yeah, yeah. And then I went full gay. 

Margaret: It's a way for people to soften their identity for straight people that they're explaining or coming out to, because bisexuality gives the listener an opportunity to maybe think that there might be a chance that they may be hetero. 

Nik: You're not totally burning your ship. 

Margaret: Right? There's a kind of flexibility inherent with the meaning, but that it also weakens the identity because then a lot of people who claim bisexual and then come out as gay later are refuting their bisexuality.

So it's an identity that's often maligns because it's used as a false self a lot of the time. It's a difficult place to be when you actually are bisexual. It's weird to think about your true identity being something that people actually don't wanna be. 

Nik: Hmm. 

Margaret: But I also get it 'cause I also sometimes don't wanna be bisexual.

Nik: Right. But you've put in your time as a bisexual woman, that's how you identify. 

Margaret: Yeah. 

Nik: Would you go back and change something if you could? 

Margaret: No, I think what it is, is I would like perception around gender and sexuality to shift and to understand that we all kind of contain multitudes within a lifetime, also within a lifetime of being romantic, within a lifetime of having these relationships.

It's going to have different forms and it's gonna have a different definition and a different look. Now I think I'm leading closer to asexual, which is very comfortable for me because it mimics in a way, bisexuality in that I have the same feeling towards everyone. You know, when you're bisexual, you kind of have the same feeling towards everyone.

And when you're asexual, you have the same feelings towards everyone. 

Nik: So part of part of the concept of the show is like letting me put my foot in my mouth for other people. Does asexual mean you don't wanna be with anybody? 

Margaret: Kind of, there's degrees of asexuality, so there's asexuality, there's aromantic, there's kind of gray sexuality where you are not wanting physical contact, but you want a little bit of emotional contact, and you want something that's a little more than platonic, but less than romantic.

So there's lots of different ways to identify, but I think for me, asexuality actually might be an answer. You know, like I have had so much trouble with sexuality from my entire life that maybe asexuality is a great place because then I can sort of step back and appreciate everybody in a very platonic way, which is very satisfying.

I think that's really nice. 

Nik: When I think of asexual, it's like you're, you're just not willing to have sex. 

Margaret: Yeah. But it's more like their body is beyond that or their psyche is beyond physical connection. So it's a more like you've evolved out of the biological imperative to have sex, I think. 

Nik: That reminds me of this kind of like, keeping your own sex energy for yourself.

Margaret: Yeah. It's, it's kind of like that. 

Nik: I feel like as I've gotten more comfortable with my sexuality, having grayer love, not even love interest or romantic interest, but like having a more diverse, platonic like love, you know, especially like with gay men, like getting to know my gay friends really well, feeling really close, you know, being comfortable with touching, not sexually, but like, you know, that kind of like, I love you so much, I want to pop you. I relate to it in that sense. 

Margaret: Yeah, it's nice. I mean, it's nice to feel safe with people that you can express affection and love for them, but you know it's not gonna go after a certain point, which I think that's great because I think for so long I didn't understand intimacy, that intimacy always had to contain sex because I didn't know how to love without involving my body. And when you start to learn how to really love people, then the body becomes sort of an afterthought, you know? Then it's just making love is actually just talking or hanging out or just being together. And it has nothing to do with sexuality. So I think asexual is a sort of a blanket term, but for me it's really like it's transcending the idea of complicating things with physicality. 

Nik: Hmm. Yeah. I relate to that too, where for a long time, sex or intimacy only meant like, let's take our clothes off and touch, touch everything together that we can. And boom, we did it. We've been intimate. Now we can, now we can stop and never see each other again.

Margaret: Yeah. Well, like that's what happens. Sometimes it just dies. Right. And then the sexualities are weird. That dies, but then the, the rest of the components grow. The rest of the relationship growth. So there's, there's a thing called lesbian bed death.

Nik: Lesbian bed death?

Margaret: Lesbian bed death, that women have, where we get into a relationship, we move in together super fast, we have a lot of sex, and then it's over 

Nik: right 

Margaret: after like three months.

But then the relationship really gets started and then we really experience intimacy, like real closeness. Because we're through all of the sexuality and all that stuff, and then we get to really be intimate and it's sometimes for a lot of people. It's hard to combine sexuality and true intimacy.

Nik: Totally. I know it has. That's been like a big journey for me around when I would go to bed quickly. It's like the relationship would be over, like there wouldn't be a move in process. There wouldn't be like a getting to know you afterwards. It's like, oh, we've gone to bed now I'm over it, or We're over it, or you're over it.

But do you think that that's different with lesbians? 

Margaret: I don't know what it is. There's just this kind of impulse to wanna get together and nest, and then a bunch of sex happens, but then you kind of burn out on it, you know, because that's all you're doing. And then what happens is that you really reach a point of true connection.

After you get through that, I think  it's complicated 'cause it's really beautiful, but it's also, you want all of it, like I think in a full relationship, maybe all of it is, it's kind of desirable. You want the sexuality and the frisson and the tension, but you also want closeness. 

Nik: Absolutely.

Well there's like the idea of instant intimacy. Like, let's just take everything down, let's throw all the cards out on the table really quickly. And I think that doesn't work as often as we would like it to. 

Margaret: It's already so hard to be gay, in a world that's heteronormative. 

Nik: Totally.

Margaret: So then, you know, you, um, imagine that since it's already hard to be gay, when I finally get that gay relationship, it's gonna be amazing.

Nik: Desperate. And you’re desperate for it in a way. 

Margaret: You've gone through so much, like, you know, went against society and everything to do this, and now you're doing this. And the fact that it can often be a disappointment is a lot. Like it's kind of too much, you know? So it's very hard, you know, people don't realize how taxing it is to do something against society.

You know, the homophobia that exists just in our midst in the world. And of course there's a lot of gay acceptance. Of course there's a lot of pride and of course all that is there. That's only in the face of terrible homophobia that has existed for Millennium. So it's a really, it's tough to go against society and it's already, like in general, it's already hard to find a sexual partner, whether you're heterosexual or homosexual.

So then add to that, everybody in society being against it. 

Nik: Right. And just fear of oneself, fear of others. 

Margaret: Yeah. And judgment and hysteria. And then the rarity of finding somebody within that. And then doing it, and then you want it to work so badly, it's like, please God, 

Nik: let this be it. 

Margaret: Yeah. So it's this fantasy that this is going to be right.

It's, it's very tough. And then, you know, every once in a while it is right and it is, it works out and it's really magical and beautiful and all of those things kind of come together. But I haven't seen it in my lifetime where it's all come together and it's really worked for a long time. 

Nik: Have you come up with a reason why that is?

Margaret: I think I'm not as, uh, interested in making it work. I'm not interested in finding out enough about myself to fix all the things that are wrong with me. Um, I'm not as interested in doing all of that work to get there to, uh, perfect my own emotional life so that I can healthily engage with another person's emotional life.

So, you know, it's my own damage that kind of keeps me out of properly engaging and romantic efforts. But at the same time I'm like, is it really worth it? I don't know, because I don't think a lot of people are willing to do the work that it requires to really be up to intimacy. I think intimacy with another person is dangerous business and hard work, so, you know, it's, it's wonderful for somebody who's going to be up to doing that, but I don't think I am up to doing the emotional labor required to do it successfully.

Nik: Well, I wanna call bullshit though, because like, that's the nature of Margaret Cho is this like raw, honest, no bullshit person. You're  this like artist activist. Like, I know you and where did it go? Um, Alexandra brought it up.

You're in this book called Queer Dharma. Are you aware of that?

Margaret: Oh, I don't know. 

Nik: It's called A queer Dharma. Like you're in this section about loving yourself. 

Margaret: Yes. Well, I do believe that self-love is the most important romantic relationship that you can foster. That part I'm good with. 

Nik: Mm. 

Margaret: That part I do a lot of work on.

And self-love is really what it's all about, you know?

Nik: Don’t you think that that becomes a byproduct? 

Margaret: Yeah, but it's also, it doesn't give me the ability to heal the damage that I would need to in order to connect with another person properly and, and also to connect with their damage properly.

Nik: Right. You know, like being able to field what's on the other side? 

Margaret: Yeah. So the comfort that I have with communication is not where should be when it comes to like relationships. So I go, I would be more of an avoidant. 

Nik: Yeah, 

Margaret: I really just shy away from a lot of intimacy 'cause I don't wanna do all the work.

I think, I think it's my age too, like I'm 56 now and it's a very unappealing part of intimacy for me. And I have relationships. I'm in like a million situationships over many years, which are all fine. 

Nik: It's that way to be intimate with everyone all at once as opposed to no one in particular. 

Margaret: Yeah. And that's good for me, you know?

That's good for me now, I think that's what I want. I mean, if it changes, it changes, and maybe something could happen, you know? But that's fine. I'm fine not being partnered, which is a real relief to not have to sort of think like, oh, I need to fix that one part. 

Nik: So tell me about how good you are at self-love.

Margaret: I really like to just take care of myself, so I have a strong meditation practice. I have a strong recovery program. I have a really nice way of taking care of myself that is really loving. It's really respectful for my art and my creativity and I make space for what I wanna do artistically and creatively and for fun.

So I have a good time most of the time. 

Nik: Yeah, that's, that much seems very clear. I, uh, like I've been going down the Margaret Cho Rabbit Hole for the last 24 hours, and I just like get like you're this creative fire hose and it seems that that does come from that kind of self-care. That putting yourself first.

Margaret: Yeah. 'cause it's really like when you think about what we're able to do, um, like in art, and for me in comedy and music, like my priority is writing jokes every day. And then my other priority is making music every day. And so I do those, both those things. Before I do anything else, and then I do my meditation, like those are the things like I set myself up every day to make my creative life first, and then my silent life, which is my meditation life, also a high priority, and then my sober life, of course, but it’s all in there. It's a honoring of self in all these ways. That is really good. 

Nik: The idea of doing that thing that's most important first. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and letting it, letting it fill in from there. It takes a lot of guts to do that. Like, it's so much easier just to think negatively about like, oh, I should be doing this.

Margaret: Yeah. Like you feel like this guilt about not being productive, but to me it's not about producing, it's about honoring. Just feeling so good about what I'm able to do, but also not needing to do it. Like I just allow my excellence to exist and it's not a reason or a payment for being on the planet. You know?

It's just like, I'm in awe of my own greatness in terms of like what I'm able to do as an artist, and I don't need to necessarily share that with anybody either. You know, it's for me and I just record it so that I can have a good time with it, and then if I so choose, I can share it and then whatever happens. But it's also like I'm very easy to accept judgment for it too.

Like anybody who criticizes what I do as an artist, I don't have an opinion about it because I am my biggest fan. 

Nik: It's not hard for you to hear criticism because you love it. 

Margaret: Because I love it and other people's opinions are not important. 

Nik: It's like you're bowing down to your like internal temple. 

Margaret: Yeah.

I also like don't take responsibility over it. Like I realize it's just a channel from a divine source, so I am not responsible for it either. So that alleviates a lot of the guilt around being productive or like, “Why didn't I do this? I should have done this. I should have had all this by now.” That is not the case because none of it's mine 

Nik: Really, I hear it as like doing a due diligence to the responsibility, like this internal responsibility. You have to share your gift, even if you're just sharing it with yourself, which is very intimate, like getting to know the deep, dark corners of yourself and honoring them.

Like, okay, I'm just gonna write this joke today. Yeah. I'm just gonna get this out. I'm gonna play this song even though it may never get played again. 

Margaret: Yeah, it's great to do because it's like, I'm going to record it for myself so I have it. And allow that to exist just on its own without necessarily having to be validated by anything.

Doesn't matter. 

Nik: Right. Or put a price tag on it. Mm-hmm. Um, how has that shifted for you? Because you started, what you started performing when you were like 14. 

Margaret: Yeah.  

Nik: So you've got over 40 years in the bank. So in, in a way, it's almost like this is kind of the end goal. Do you think that that's something actually that like a 14-year-old could be like, that you could like cut across and just go straight to, to that?

Margaret: I think that everybody should be able to do it. You know, doesn't matter how long you've been doing it, it, it is always the same. Like I think that when I started it was really trying to seek approval from other people. For the most part, 30 years of that was trying to seek approval from other people. And then, so the last 10, 15 years or whatever has been, oh, I actually don't need to, that has been a lot easier.

If you're an artist, so much of your ego is tied up in. How is this going to be perceived to the point where you judge everything that comes out and that's really prohibitive, that's what stops it, the flow of it, because you're judging it. 

Nik: Yeah. It's almost like this, this inner critic, this ego lives on the shoulder.

It's, uh, and, you know, could take many forms, could be someone we look up to. What would, how would they, oh, this is not good enough for so and so, who's never even gonna see it. 

Margaret: It's hard. Like I actually worked with somebody who I'm a huge fan of. She's brilliant. She's really a genius artist, and I was excited to work with her, and then she was paralyzed by self-judgment all day and had all of these brilliant thoughts and ideas and things, and she didn't like it and ended up trashing the whole thing.

I was so disappointed because I was like, wow, that's so tough. She's really a genius, legacy artist who goes up against herself every single day. It doesn't matter who we are, it doesn't matter how much we've done or accomplished that the the inner critic can be as strong as your artistic force. Even somebody who is this bonafide legacy artist genius for decades. It was really a painful day, but it taught me like we don't know what's happening with people. We really don't know. And our greatest enemies are often—not just often, it's always—ourselves. 

Nik: Sure. You have been culturally a big deal for other Asian comedians, especially queer Asian comedians, 'cause you were the only one for a very long time.

And so just your presence has been a big influence. But what would be your, like, how would you wanna directly influence those who are still coming up, who are still 14 and 16? 

Margaret: I want them to get out there and there's a lot of ways to be a comedian. Now, you know, with social media there's like a lot of great avenues that they can go and discover, which is great and super exciting.

And there's a actually a lot of queer Asian comedians now, which is really cool. Like especially younger ones. And so I collaborate with a couple of people who are really special and that's really fun. I always want them to feel encouraged and excited and, uh, know that they have a big future 'cause they do.

Nik: What, what is it that draws you to certain individuals rather than others? Because I'm sure like everyone and their mother would love to be mentored by you. 

Margaret: Well just, you know, if I end up seeing them or, you know, I end up laughing at something that they're doing. You know, like I watch a lot of different young people on social media.

Like there was a comedian named Sam. 

Nik: Oh, he's great

Margaret: Yeah, he's beautiful. And so he wrote a song called Foreskin, and he had a dance to it, and it was like this K-pop song about foreskin. And I laughed so hard and so I reached out to him on social media and I was like, we have to do the remix.

And so I did like a remix. We did together a remix of the song, and we actually just performed it at the Asian Comedy Festival a couple of weeks ago, and it was so funny. Like it's just great to reach out to people and go, “Hey, what you're doing is great. I would love to help out, you know, whatever I can do.”

And, um, it comes back so amazing. So just like little things like that, it means a lot to people and it means a lot to me. So I think it's super special. 

Nik: Totally just like, I mean, coming on here like on my little ally-based podcast, to have you on means a lot. 

What's been the biggest part of your journey through getting clear about what works for you and what doesn't work for you? ‘Cause it sounds like it's still evolving. 

Margaret: It's still evolving, but now I think there has to be more of a sense of unity and protection for our communities. Like I'm really disgusted at what's happening with the anti-trans legislation that's out there, the anti-trans kind of sentiment. I'm really discouraged by people who are in the gay community who are anti-trans.

Nik: That's crazy. 

Margaret: It's crazy. That's so freaky to me, 'cause they're like, we just wanna be normal gays. There's no such thing, and you can't discount a whole part of our community when we owe our freedom to trans women. You know, we owe our liberation from women like Marsha P Johnson, and you can not think about gay liberation without the contributions of the trans community.

So I hate turfs, that trans exclusionary radical feminist. I hate all of the bathroom bills. And then Alan Cumming had a really good thing to say, he said about it. 

Nik: Oh my gosh. On his monologue for Kimmel? So good. 

Margaret: That was so good where he is like, why would a man dress up as a trans woman to rape women, when rapists are treated so much better than trans people?

Like, it's so true. It's like, nobody's doing that. It's all so made up, and it's just why? There's no reason. So that I think is the most infuriating thing. 

Nik: It is infuriating, and it's like homophobia 2.0. 

Margaret: Mm-hmm. 

Nik: Or even 3.0. Because it's just so unknown to the heteronormative world. You know? Like most people that have beef with trans, they don't know any trans people.

Margaret: No. They don't know anything about trans people. They don't know anything about trans lives. They don't know anything about anything. And it's just this hysterical notion that we're gonna get attacked in the bathroom. That's never happened. It's just all really perverse, like what they're saying, like trans as perverse or drag as perverse, but that what they're doing is really perverse.

It's a distraction from the real rape, the real rapists like Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump. Like it's like distraction from what's really going on. 

Nik: It's so infuriating. Sometimes I just wanna like bury my head in the sand and just focus on the cats. 

Margaret: Yeah. Which you can do, too. I love cats. I have three, and I mean, my animals are very helpful in creating a space of love and quiet for me, and that's just as important as anything else.

Nik: Do you have any more to say about how you are identifying now? Because I feel like it's really cool to hear what you've come up with. 

Margaret: Well, it's still a development. I think a lot of it is informed by menopause and your body changes. You don't really have a sense of where it's gonna go.

I have very different ideas about what I want physically in sex, so that's really changed too. I do go on dates. And I do see people from time to time, but it's not a priority. 

Nik: Do you mind going into what it is that's you are wanting physically? 

Margaret: I don't like penetration anymore in menopause, so dicks are kind of… they're not applicable.

When you get older, a lot of times women get vaginismus, where it just closes up. 

Nik: You're kidding. 

Margaret: You can only use the top of it. It's kind of like a pool cue, like a chalk that you put on top of a pool. It's so weird. So now I can only use like this much of my vagina. 

Nik: It's like your vagina is no longer a restaurant. It's just like a to-go window. 

Margaret: Yeah. During COVID, we changed it up. There's alfresco dining, but you know, like there's stuff like that, that your body changes 

Nik: It's such an evolution and such a process, especially in the 56 years. Has there been like a favorite, a favorite sexual time of your life?

Margaret: No, because it's always been a problem. So actually now it is. Like I really enjoy what I'm doing now. Like I like that I have choices and that's great. 'Cause before it was like, you know, I had good sex, but it was so conflicted with the people. Like sometimes you have good sex with people, but you don't have a good relationship with them. I think things are better now. 

Nik: I'm so glad to hear that, especially because I know you've lived quite the life with lots of different experiences. You know some traumatic and some joyful. So to hear that you found yourself towards a place, to an equilibrium, where you're just good. 

Margaret: Yeah, everything is good.

It's good. I mean, that's like the benefits of age and kind of getting to a place where, oh, like I really know what I want and I'm really happy with what I'm getting now. 

Nik: What's fulfilling you creatively these days? 

Margaret: Well, standup comedy and music. I wrote a new album and right now I'm gonna start to record in the next month or so. And then I'm going on tour starting in Provincetown, which is really cool.

So I have a new show, which is all very exciting. So that's like very much taking up a lot of my time. 

Nik: It must be so fun to go to start that tour off in Provincetown. 

Margaret: Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad. 

Nik: I'm sure you have like so many people, and it's like a whole, it's a whole family town there.

Margaret: Yeah. So great.

Nik: What about your parents?

How has this changed, affected your relationship with your parents? 

Margaret: They want me to be married. That's all they care about, but I don't think that's gonna happen. And so they're very distressed about that. That's like the worst outcome. And they don't care if it's a man or a woman. They don't care.

But they just want me to be partnered, and they think it's just such an awful situation. But it's not. But they don't understand.

Nik: Even though they know you have enough money and it's not like you need? 

Margaret: Yeah. It doesn't matter. It's like they can't perceive of a woman living alone as being any way of a happy, happy life.

Nik: What do they say? Like what's their like actual beef when that goes back and forth? 

Margaret: Well, they just don't think it's possible, that it's not normal, and that it's not right. And that you can't possibly live alone. And it's both of their experiences. They've never lived alone. They've been together since the 1950s. So it's like they can't perceive of anybody being happy alone, whereas I can't perceive anybody being happy with somebody. 

Nik: Mm. 

Margaret: So they don't get it. 

Nik: They've got that 1950s attitude. 

Margaret: Yeah. They're never gonna change. It's okay. 

Nik: Yeah. Huh. Well, I'm so glad we got there.

Margaret: Yeah. 

Nik: Yeah. I love and adore you and appreciate the time. 

Margaret: Of course. Thank you. 

Nik: Bye 

Margaret: bye.

Nik: Yeah, that was Margaret Cho. You heard her here on All the Greatest Gays.Sso many ways to be gay. Don't you love that? Give it up for Margaret and her pool cue. I love the idea that you gotta have sex with a lot of people before you can realize you don't actually want to have sex with people. You know what I mean?

I'm sure we'll all get there eventually, but in the meantime, let's make love. If you like this episode, please share it with a friend or an enemy. Like, subscribe, don't forget to ring that bell and, uh, honk that horn for All the Greatest Gays. That's us. Thanks for waiting for this episode. By the way, we took a few weeks off to put some more gas in the tank and, uh, an idea came for season two, All Your Greatest Gays.

So if you want to nominate a gay in your life, a great gay, or if you are that great gay, you know, send me a message. Pitch me, baby. All the greatest gays on Instagram. Thanks again for listening. Keep coming back and adios.