War Story 008: Carl Williams, Royal Tank Regiment

Carl Williams grew up in a military family and joined the 2nd Royal Tank Regiment in 2003. During his second tour of Iraq Carl was stationed at Basra Palace, which came under daily attack in a summer of heavy fighting. Eventually the British soldiers were ordered to leave the city after a cease fire was agreed with the enemy - a decision that many of the soldiers disagree with to this day. 

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hi, guys. Uh , welcome into the War Story podcast from me, Gar Jones. Um, thanks for everyone that messaged last week about last week's episode. Um, thanks for everyone that shared it. Saw a few of those going out on social media and things, and a few of you got in touch to , uh, let us know that you've been doing that. So appreciate that. Um, anyone who's joined us for the first time, welcome. Uh, the aim of this podcast is pretty simple, really. It's to get war stories outta people's heads and onto recordings , uh, before we get too old to , to remember them, basically. Pretty much as simple as that. And , uh, hopefully when you're listening, you might learn something. You might , uh, I , I found today's conversation really interesting myself because I'd been in Iraq , uh, at the same time as, as our guest. And , uh, you know, it's always interesting to hear someone's different perspective, who's there at the same time as you, that kind of thing. So sure, a few of you listening will probably been out there around the same time as well. So I hope you get something extra special out of it. Um, and , uh, yeah, as I said before, guys, really, it's pretty simple on the show. Don't run ad ads on here , no advertisements. Um, if you enjoy what you're listening to, if you feel like you get value out of it, then uh , all we ask is that you share it. Um, you know, we'll take care of the recording end , um, costs, anything like that. And so, we'll , we ask in return is that you bring us a friend along, bring us a friend along for every episode that you listen to. And , um, if you think the stories are worth listening to, then other people will do too. So don't keep 'em to yourself. Um, I did have something else to say and I'm blanking on what it was , uh, <laugh> . Um , so it can't of been that important, really. Um , so let's just get into today's guest. Um , Carl Williams served in Royal Tank Regiment. He is another Welsh guest. I know you're not all Welsh listeners , um, and I have been very kind in bringing you a lot of Welsh guests recently, but we will have some Englanders on another nationality soon. Um, oh yeah, that's where it was. If you're interested in being on the podcast guys, then uh, get in touch. Let us know. Uh, it's, we're welcome to pretty much anyone. Um, just drop us a , drop us a message, let us know what you got up to in your service , um, when you served, where you served, all that kind of stuff. And , uh, we'll stick it down on the list. Um , the idea is to get as many of these done as um, possible. And to that end, actually, you will notice today , um, the last episode had very kind of , um, let's say creamy rich recording sound. And the reason for that was 'cause we were in a professional studio , uh, with Peter , um, Peter down here at his , uh, studio in audio cafe in Ham . Um, what I'm recording right now is on my laptop. And the reason why is because I can't get down to the studio all the time and I want to keep these episodes coming out on a weekly basis. So in order to do that, it means doing some of them from home. So hopefully the audio quality is still good. I've , I've had , listen , I think it sounds all right , but , um, it's not gonna be as good as we get in the studio, but I hope you'll agree that, you know, we'll try and do as many in the studio as we can, but, you know, sometimes it's best to just kind of keep the, keep the tap open and keep these episodes coming out. Um, so without further ado , please give a very warm welcome to our guest, Mr. Carl Williams. Let's start back at the beginning mate . Can you just fill us in on the very Billy basics, like where , where you're from and, you know, when was it that you first started having an inclination that you wanted to serve in the army?

Speaker 2: 3:29

So , um, I , I wouldn't really say I've got anywhere where I'm from 'cause my dad's in the military or he was in the military. So I'm a pad rat basically. So I grew up in, all my family are from Hollyhead in North Wales, ea and then my dad joined the Navy, so he is a submariner. So I grew up initially in Faslane , Scotland and then we moved many, like, many, many times to like Plymouth, Portsmouth and, and London. We ended up settling, managed to settle in London, but um, it was like multiple times between Plymouth and and Scotland. So , uh, for a period of time when I was younger they put me in boarding school to get , try and set like give me some sort of settled education. But the sort of person I'm, I was a little, so I was around in school and then I ended up getting kicked outta boarding school. So , um, yeah, I ended up just basically bouncing between Scotland, Plymouth. And then when I turned, I think I was about 13, moved to London and my dad managed to get postings basically within London for quite a few years. Then so did the whole of my secondary school in, in London area. So I'd say for me that's kind of home. So yeah, that's grown up. That's, that's what it was really.

Speaker 1: 4:53

Was there , was there one particular incident that got you kicked out or was it just a general kind of you just wore 'em out over top , rub them down?

Speaker 2: 5:01

No , I was more, I was just, I wasn't really like a bad bad kid, but I was just the class clown sort of thing. So this school yet , I can't remember how much it was, I think it sent like four or five grand a month , uh, four or five grand , uh, school fees, which I think the military subsidized, but my parents have a load of money then anyway because my dad wasn't, hadn't work . He has wasn't that high at the time. And uh, there was this thing where you used to have a thing called prep. Like every night you'd have to do like your homework and you'd be in this classroom. And um , my parents lived in Scotland at the time and uh, me being me, I was just around in the classroom jumping from table to table. And uh, little did I know my parents had come to surprise me to come pick me up <laugh> . So , uh, the matron that was there, she was saying to my parents like , you just don't mind being quiet. We go in the classroom here, we'll be doing this prep while the other kids and my mom and dad are like, oh yeah, no worries. And then they open the door and then they see me jumping from table to table and I was lit , my face just dropped and I just dropped like in my seat and I was like, ah , now . But yeah, that then basically I was just constantly in some up to no good really. And I was on my headmaster's report and then , um, I , I just had, I basically each had enough like, 'cause my mom and dad knew they was , well one day they left me at school and I just stood in the window like a little orphan gutted , they were leaving. And uh, my dad was like, nah , let's just get him out there. So they got me back into a , to like a normal public school , uh, state school sort of thing, which suited me better anyway really. But I think they were just trying to , they say they were trying to gimme a better education, but I honestly think they were doing it to get rid of me 'cause I was the, I was the naughty one and my sister was the, the better behaved one

Speaker 1: 6:44

You got . So your one sister?

Speaker 2: 6:45

Yeah, I got one sister, yeah,

Speaker 1: 6:47

Older, younger.

Speaker 2: 6:48

Uh, she's two years younger. Yeah. But I , so what , what

Speaker 1: 6:52

Was it like then when you dad would go, you know, your dad would go away for like long periods I'm assuming, or so

Speaker 2: 6:58

Do you know? It it wasn't, I don't remember it being difficult because since I was basically, my dad had been in the Navy since I was born, so he joined when he was , I think they could join 15 and a half at the time. So my whole life, I've always been used to like, he'll be home for like seven months sort of thing and then they'd go on like a , a patrol out on the submarines for like, they can be like a few months up to four or five months to go off to America or, so I was kind of used to it to be honest. Um, I dunno , I can't really remember what it was like as a , as a kid I would've felt, but obviously I , I'd miss my dad or he'd come home and he'd always come home with some sort of like, he bought something from for me and my sister. So we'd always look forward to him coming home. But , um, I don't really think this , to be honest with you, I don't really think it had like a, like an effect on you . I think it's just something you get used to really.

Speaker 1: 7:49

Yeah. And then what , what about like grandparents, they served in the military as well?

Speaker 2: 7:54

Yeah, my dad's dad, he was in uh , Walsh's Liz and my dad's brother was also Walsh's Liz as well, right . So we , we've got a bit of a fam like military sort of history in the family sort of thing. So that was definitely what planted the seed in my head to join. 'cause obviously I was surrounded by it , um, when I was younger. So when I got to obviously like GCSE years, I was obviously thinking what do I want to do? And um, my old man was sort of saying like , do you wanna join the Navy sort of thing. And I was thinking, no way, because he's a submariner and they used to have to do this thing called the tank. And it's basically you go in some deep tube, the room fills up the water, you ain't got a , you ain't got like a , any sort of breathing apparatus, the water fills over your head and they open it and you have to swim to the top. And when I heard about that I was like, not a chant but I was um, we were living in London at the time and we were walking past, it was closed now it was RAF Oxbridge and it was a massive sort of like military fair there. And I remember just seeing the army there and I remember seeing this infantry bo with all the kid on as a kid, I thought it looked really cool and I said to my dad, that's what I want to do. And he was saying basically, so I always join the Weh Street , Liz like my family will be on Welsh and stuff. And then uh , he was like, no, like get a trade and 'cause obviously him being in would've all in the military can see it for what it is. So I marched myself down to a Wembley careers office and then there was A-P-W-R-R sergeant there and he was obviously trying to get me in to join his on because he is in the local regiment at the time. And I was like, nah , I sort of wanna explore my options. Did the uh, that silly barb testing which anyone could pass. And basically they off offered me the list of jobs, which you probably know yourself. And then um , the two that stood out to me was obviously the tank regiment and the artillery and uh, it's not hard to brag a 16-year-old to join a Tang regiment as they still that video on with the music on it and stuff. I was just like, yeah, I wanna do that. They had no idea what it entailed, but I was like, yeah, I want to get involved in that. Um, but it definitely appealed to me as well 'cause I didn't really want , I didn't want to join a unit where if you did go anywhere, you wouldn't really be involved in anything. So it was kind of best of both worlds. 'cause you get a little bit of the engineering side of things like working on the tanks and then obviously crewing the vehicle as well. And then obviously you get to do, you get to like the pretty decent stuff on tour as well. Mm-hmm . So what , what year would this be then when you joined? 2000 and I joined in 2003. So I joined like the minimum age, I think it was 16 and 16 and a bit. I basically had to wait a little bit, so I had um , fixed braces at the time so I had to wait for them to come out . And then I um, I did the section I think at BR for a couple of days and then , uh, got through that and then basically I, I ended up going to Bass inborn , which is like , like a mini harrogate , I dunno if you know it , it's in um , Cambridge, right? Yeah . And that was like specifically for like Royal Armor Corps , was it ? Nah , it was mixed cap badges. There was a lot of, in my company there was like loads of engineers and there was a few Army Air Corps , but there was, there was a few infantry there as well. I thought sure there was infantry there , but there was , it was a big mix of cat badges and I think it was ju it was more geared up to , it was called like a junior leader sort of thing. So it was six months and you basically do a little bit extra classroom work, but it wasn't the ho 'cause when they, they offered me Harrogate and they said the training was a year long . I was like, not a chance. I'm not doing , I'm not doing a year in training. And then, so it was kind of like in between like the adult 12 week sort of basic and then the Harrogate or a year . So I think it was like just under six months.

Speaker 1: 11:56

Mm And what , when , when you joined there , 2003, the Iraq invasion already happened?

Speaker 2: 12:03

No, it hadn't happened at the time and uh, it was weird because um, I remember I was doing, I think it was like one of in week six sort of inspection sort of things. And um, we had, it was a family day sort of thing going on and um, my old man couldn't obviously be there because he was at work and he basically rang me saying , um, at the time he said Watch the , he just said to me, watch the news tonight. Nothing had actually happened. And I was like, but barely at the time my dad was working , um, in the nuclear firing chain in, in Central London. So he was obviously involved with the tomahawks and that all coming off the, the subs and the boats and stuff or shipped whatever they call 'em . And um, so I was just sort of thinking what's going on here ? And then obviously the news came on and then that's, so when I was in basic training, that's when they like initiated the invasion of Iraq. I think it was the bombing campaign first and then whatever happened after that so that, that kicked, that started when I was in basic.

Speaker 1: 13:01

And did that change your feelings in any way positive or negative towards what you joined up for?

Speaker 2: 13:07

You know what, I don't really think it had an effect on me at all because I didn't join thinking, oh , I'm gonna go away anywhere, but not thinking, I wouldn't either. So I wasn't particularly like, I didn't have the same sort of thought. I didn't have the thoughts of , oh I'm gonna get it to go away or I'm gonna be doing that because I was literally in the , like the beginning stage of my basic training, I thought, is that really gonna be still be going on? Like when, by the time I get to my , 'cause obviously I had to do phase two and then obviously get to your unit and I was thinking, and I was 16 at the time as well, I think you had to be 18 to go away. And I was thinking, that's never gonna be going on still. So it kind of, it kind of depends . Yeah. So I silly you think that really, but um, yeah, I thought I'm not even 18 yet. It's , it wasn't even a thought in my head really. I just sort of tracked it on the new <inaudible> and then sort of just put it to the back of my head really.

Speaker 1: 14:00

Mm-hmm . So would , would it be fair to say that you joined the Army for a job rather than like to , to go on operations? Like obviously you probably expected that you might go on operations, but was it like job first operations, that kind of thing ?

Speaker 2: 14:14

For me it was more, I wanted to sort of do the same sort of thing that my family members had done. So like, you know, do you sort of , um, and that's had a bit corny but like bit patriotic. I , I did wanna do my bit and I wanted to obviously, you know, people at school thinking you can't do it and you're like, yeah , watch, watch, I'll be able to get through it and all that sort of stuff. And I was like the smallest kid in the ear as well. So I was thinking, but I had almost that little point of proof. So, so it was that and the fact that I didn't really take to school , I didn't really wanna go to uni or college or anything like that . I didn't really take to schooling the, the only thing I really enjoyed was history and like sports, like playing football. So I , I thought the military was just, it was the perfect thing for me really. I was used to being away as a kid and it was an active job and family members obviously I've never heard it. I was always hearing, which is weird, like positive things about the military. Like as a kid growing up and being surrounded by it, it was almost normal. So for me it was, it wasn't just a job, it was just something I felt like I needed to do.

Speaker 1: 15:22

Right . So literally it was just like a part of your life, it just seemed like a natural continuation to Yeah,

Speaker 2: 15:26

Definitely. Definitely.

Speaker 1: 15:28

So when you mentioned playing football, was like sports a big part of your , your upbringing?

Speaker 2: 15:35

Yeah, obviously growing up on the , like on the estate where you could have a kids and that was playing football and playing football for like , like your school teams and then playing Saturday League and that I was never good enough to make it like, cause any waves. Um, I actually, I used to be, I used to be really pretty decent at rugby when I was a kid, but I'll be honest, I can't stand it. I, I found it quite boring. So I was like, I didn't really , I I I had the ability to like do quite well. I think I was getting scouted for other teens and stuff. I lived in London and then I just lost interest in it and then just gave up on it. But for me, I , I do like , I love sports even now. I still play like when I can and I'm more into like just training at the gym now, but I still play football when I can.

Speaker 1: 16:21

Was that team sport something you found kind of benefited you once you were in training than in the military environment?

Speaker 2: 16:28

Um, I never really thought of it like that, but subconsciously probably, yeah, it would've because obviously like teamwork and that sort of stuff. But to be honest with you, like meeting new people also also wasn't very difficult for me 'cause I was so used to it every two years I was moving school so I wasn't like , I wasn't inti , you know, like some people say, oh, when they got to basic it was intimidating. There was just loads of different people there. For me it was just like joining another school. Mm-hmm . I was, I was very used to just meeting new people. But yeah , I , I do think, but like you say, yeah , the sports side of things definitely I think would've benefited me in some ways.

Speaker 1: 17:07

A anything that particular stand out from your time during training?

Speaker 2: 17:12

Um , not, not particularly. It was pretty, it was pretty non-eventful really. It was very like very standard. Uh , it was just, it was , it was was interesting to see how like they can change you and stuff. Obviously rock up as a city and you've got no sort of clue what's going on and then by the time you get out of there sort of like you think, you think you're the polished article, but you're not , you're obviously not. But it was quite interesting to see like how drastically they could change you. And looking back on it now, obviously I wouldn't have seen it as a young when I was younger , but is mental how they get you to join the military, how they can get you to join the military that young? Because I, I was by no means mature. I had no, I , I was just a kid basically. And uh, I don't like using the word brainwashing but it clearly <laugh> . It clearly is

Speaker 1: 18:03

What , what's your kind of opinion on that now? Because you know, I've spoken to, you know, lad's like we had uh , Andy Williams on the other day and you know, he had a pretty turbulent kind of upbringing waves and you know, I think he was really kind of glad to get in it at 16 and then, you know, then there's the other side of the argument which is like you said, you know, when you're 16 you don't really know exactly what you're signing up for, do you, so like where do you kind of fall on that?

Speaker 2: 18:30

A bit of a boring , I'd be , I'd probably be sat on the fence because once I got out the army and people, I spoke to 'em and they were saying you joined that young And they were like, do you not think that's brainwashing? And I was like , at first it put my back up a bit and I was like, you're cheeky, like thinking I'm too stupid to realize what I'm doing. But when you look at it, I know the military like to say it's , it's , you're a good age to be molded. I think that's just , I think that's just a soft way of saying you , you're a good age to be brainwashed but , but on the flip side, I don't regret joining that earlier at all and I wouldn't, if I had the opportunity to do it again, I would've done it again. Yeah because I feel on the positive side, I feel like it can stop a lot of young lads get or young lads or young girls getting in trouble. 'cause if, if I didn't join the military, who knows, who knows where I would've ended up. 'cause I was at that age where I was starting to mess up out a bit like police knocking on the door sort of thing at home when you're a kid and I was thinking and you think to yourself, if you didn't have the opportunity to join the military that young, what else could you do? So definitely wasn't gonna stay in school.

Speaker 1: 19:36

Yeah, something's gonna mold you in it , it's gonna be something. Um , so it's just be moment mate . So when you were at Bain board , did you know specifically that you'd be going to to RTR or do you just join? Is it like a core, you join a core and then you get filtered down?

Speaker 2: 19:52

So I definitely, from what I remember, I just, I was cat badged. I wanted to join the roll hang regiment and I don't think at that stage I knew if I was one or two RTR but I , I might have been initially ca badge one RTR, which I didn't know too much about the differences between one and two. I just knew it was the royal tank regiment and I thought our first royal tank regiment is the first one so let's just go with that one. When I went to phase two , um, I remember I'll meeting all , 'cause I , there was only one other tanky at Bassen born at the time and he was in a different company so I didn't really speak to him. We ended up being really good mates in yen . But um, when I got to Bassen born , I met other lads who were joining the tank regiment 'cause it was all armored call there at Bingington. Sorry All Armor would call there and they were like why are you going on RTR? And I was like, what you on about ? And they were like, like you sound like you're from London. I was like yeah. And they were like, it's all scouters and jocks in one RTR. And I was like What? And they were like, yeah, all the lads I got on with as well were two RTR in , in in um, in Barrington. So I went to the true corporal's office saying look , I didn't know one RTR was scouters and Jocks, not that I've got an issue , I've got an issue with them , uh, but I want be two RTR. And they were like, alright , no worries. Filled out some paperwork. It was actually really effortless. I thought, oh that was easy. Then about two weeks later when I , when they said, oh you're two RTR, you're gonna be two RTR now . I was like, oh sweet. They were like, so you'll be going to Germany? And I was like, what <laugh> ? I was like. I was like , can I transfer it back to one? And they were like, nah , that's it. Now you can't like basically saying I was messing them about, so that's how, that's how I remember ending up being two RTR basically. 'cause I was, I wasn't a scout or a jock and all the other LA two I was chatting to at the time said , uh, where ? Or two RTR. So that's how I ended up there. But I think initially I was cap badge one R two And what what was it like down at Ingston? You getting your hands on tanks at that point? Oh it was the during what bobbing Tim's class. The , the first week? Yeah . I thought what have I let myself in for? 'cause they literally just hammer you with PT and I've, I'll be honest with you. Yeah , at in the military I didn't like PT at all. It's funny 'cause one of the lads the other day said, when you were in the Army you had a body, like a melted wellie <laugh> . And uh, so the first week we were just getting done. We had like log races, stretcher races, all that sort of stuff. And I was like, what the is this? And then after that it was typical like fat tanky pt, it was like they'd call , um, they'd call a parade on like in the morning for you to go outside. They'd , they'd have a coach put on to drive down to another camp down the bottom of the hill, which is about three or 400 meters away and for and for 45 minutes they'd just get you to run to a flagpole back . There's literally no structure to it at all. And um , so in the end , uh, every week you'd find lads, we'd all be hiding in our lockers. Like if we have a torch reading our books and stuff hiding and then the true corporals be walking around looking for us 'cause we're all trying to bunk off pt. So basically you're above until I ended up just getting sacked . 'cause you just basically , uh, working and when you're working on the vehicles, the the nephew wagon and that , I was just getting pasties and stuff in my face every day . But Bob Ton itself though , in , in respects to the courses, it was really, it was really well it was really well run . It was decent. You do, I initially done my signals course, which was backhoe at the time, which is nightmare. Um, and then you do your driving license. So I , it's like a crash course sort of thing . They bang you on it for a week. You just drive around all day around Weymouth and Bournemouth just let you know birds on the beach and then you go onto your ev you driving a maintenance course , which most I'd say about 80, 90% of people get put as a driver first and then the odd random gets sent to Longworth to do gunnery . But I got picked to do like everyone else. So I was on the driving and maintenance course and then you basically learn the basic maintenance of the tank and then how to, there's a chance to how to service it, maintain it, and then obviously how to crew the vehicle as well. But literally when I joined I had zero knowledge of tool , that tool in or anything mechanical. So I had no background. But they teach you, it's like any , uh, it was, it was, it was a well run course 'cause like from the beginning to the end you learn , you start from nothing and then by the end you're pretty competent. But um, yeah we did have one in like , I remember Williamston down there though we had , um, one of the vehicles had come back from Telec and uh, it was all desert colored. It was one of the Charlie twos . And then , um, one of the instructors was opening up the side panels on the turret where, so they got the NBC kit and stuff and uh, they found , um, an RPG had been hidden in there. Someone obviously had tried to smuggle it back to the UK and then uh, <laugh> they had to shut the tank part down. Obviously they brought eight O down and that 'cause uh , there was a bit of that . I heard a bit of that was going on like weapons of being hidden let's say in tins of grease or in in compartments on vehicles. So yeah, that was a bit of a , that was a bit of a mad one.

Speaker 1: 25:01

So how much are you, are you learning to do on the tank then? Like what are the kind of responsibilities that you've gotta have in terms of maintenance?

Speaker 2: 25:09

So initially it's just, it's just basically like operation, like how the , how the vehicle works. So it's like, like first parade vehicles, you know, first parade , the vehicle, check the levels, all that sort of stuff. Basic maintenance has changed. Fan belts, track, track maintenance, track bashing. Um, and then obviously you , you do learn about how the vehicle, how the tank actually works itself, but it's not so in depth because when you get to your unit, they've got more in depth depending whether you specialize in driving and being a driver or if you go gunnery there's , they've got like a mech course which is like a more in depth course which I ended up doing later on. But, so basically it's basically the running of the vehicle and how to maintain it and keep it going basically. Um, so you do like the initial like maintenance phase and then you get to go do the driving phase once you pop because you have to your driving license first and then when you've done that you can do your track vehicle license, which I think, I can't remember what number , what letter it's, but you do your track vehicle license. So you do, you drive around the all weather circuit above turn , you go over the knife edge, it's basically teaching you how to drive cross country and then obviously and you do like a road driving phase, but these tanks aren't, they're not like the challenger twos you are used to seeing the tart on. They've basically got like a glass, it's a challenger two hole with like a glass dome on top where the rest of the crew sit who are training as well and the instructor. Um, and then you do like the road driving phase which is just basically driving the chais on the road, which is quite frighten to be fair because you see all the ta , the cars driving down down there basically driver themselves. But uh , they just basically just driving past monkey world all day with a , which is very Bob , which is near Ingston . Um , we had one little incident on uh , an evening one that we were doing night driving and uh, we are just driving down the road and this, this car was just obviously veering towards us. He'd obviously fallen asleep at the wheel, it was country roads down there and he basically hit, hit our tank. If he was, I'd say half a foot more inside, he would've, we would've just gone straight over him. But he just spun out, smashed his car up and he was like , what did I hit? And we were like a dog and he started laughing. He looked , literally saw a chatty too there . He was like what the, he was lucky to be there . So you do , you do your drive , you do your driving face and then uh, once you've done that you do, you did like a final exercise which is like , oh just a weak exercise like dismounted . I think it's just a mess you about a bit and just get you ready then to basically just mark time before you go to your unit. You do the um, get all your signatures and that sort of stuff and then you get your sort of start date when you get to your regiment.

Speaker 1: 27:53

So how many hours would you say you'd been driving cars before you were driving 10?

Speaker 2: 27:59

Uh , I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say any more than five <laugh> . Five or six like most . And you're 60 or 16 ? Yeah , I probably do like an hour . I've never driven a car before in my life it was probably, you'd probably get an hour and a half each a day. So maybe a little bit more you get, so it'd be like three squished in the back or in the front and you just basically just take it in turns to drive. Then literally, I think I started on the Monday and on the Friday I was at the test center in Weymouth and then had my driving test. I was like, no, I was , I was happy 'cause obviously you get your driving license for free and I was literally just turned , I was like 16 and a half. I was just got my driving license. So, but before you get let loose into a tank, like literally I'd had barely any driving experience. But believe it or not, a tank is a absolute do to drive. It's literally, it's like it's automatic. It's a big brake pedal in the middle, there's an accelerator and then pull left to go left pull right to go right. That is lit because you've got sticks.

Speaker 1: 28:56

Just explain that you've got levers.

Speaker 2: 28:58

So you've got, yeah , you've got sticks in the , in the cab. Literally pull left if you go forward, pull left to go there . Pull right to go Right. And if you reverse, it's obviously , it's the opposite area , opposite way around . Um, it is like you could probably , the starting up sequence is obviously that's quite longwinded to be fair, but if the tanker's running, you could literally jump in and out I guarantee you. And you could drive somewhere and you'd be absolutely fine.

Speaker 1: 29:22

And it's a jet engine

Speaker 2: 29:23

In the , it's a like a rolls, it's a Rolls Royce d big diesel engine. Um, they , they've , to be honest, they are pretty quick . I think, I can't remember the weight of the tank when it's battle loaded , but they're quick, they are pretty quick for the size of them , I think easily . I think it's about 50 50 cross country

Speaker 1: 29:42

Got so, oh now I've just, I I thought I'd do one of those. Joe Rogan, check that out Jamie . And instead I've come up with uh , a , an oil platform in an North Sea . So I don't think t that's my fault . Um, uh, well you believe , I believe I will . Um, so when you, you'd done all this driving then mate , you got , so you straight to your, straight to your regiment from there.

Speaker 2: 30:06

I think I had a couple of weeks leave. Um, and then yeah , basically you get given your , your details to fly out to Germany. I think we flew from Bryce to Hanover airport. Um, I was there with two other lads from my unit. So it wasn't just me. Uh, remember yeah , flying out to Germany. It was like December pitch flat when we got there. Jumped , they sent the coach for us. There was literally three of us on it and they just dumped us at the Camp Gates. There was some Were they city guards? Yeah , it might have been like city contractor guy on the gate. I said basically we just rocked up. I was like, we starting, we're starting today. And he is like sent us down to the guard room . They typical squad in military fashion, they didn't have a clue that we were coming and they basically put us in the , uh, the cells for the night. 'cause obviously they didn't only rooms for us. So we were in the cells for the night and had to wait for the morning to obviously the squadrons to parade and then go and find out what was going on. But yeah, we , we were based in Fallon Bool . So we were in between the Scotch Goon guards, which were another tank regiment. And at the time it was the black watch on the other side of the road. So we were like an English regiment stuck in between two Scottish regiments. We used to scrap every weekend on how , but the Black watch ended up chained into the high , I think it was the Highlanders . So yeah, we were based in, I can't remember the name of the barracks now quite a while ago. But yeah, we had to wait for the morning pray to our, our , our squadron that've been sent to and then find out what was going on from there.

Speaker 1: 31:37

Yeah , that Fallon ba still used to be prisoner war camp in second .

Speaker 2: 31:40

Yeah, it's , it's crazy because the actual camp we're based on used to be , um, the SS Panza headquarters. Really? Yeah, it is . It's , yeah, it's crazy. Like there's so much , there's so much history there. Um, just down the road you've got Bergen Belson , um, and just outside of our, outside the back gates of the camp, there was a bigger building called the Union Building and it's where they used to hose the , the carts down with all the Jews and that on it . And they used to hose hose it down there, then send it onto Belson. But there's , there's so much, there's so much history there. It is like , it was crazy . And I , I was always a bit of a history nut for like all the World War II stuff. So I was , when I was there I was loving, I was loving finding all this sort of stuff out. But um, initially I was like, oh I didn't really want to go to Germany. But it was the , uh, hands down the best, the best, best thing I ever done. Like if you never got to go to Germany, you really did miss out.

Speaker 1: 32:33

Why was that in ?

Speaker 2: 32:34

It's just , it's class, like the location where you are, like on the weekend , literally as soon as, as you knock off on a Friday when you're, when you're back in the uk when we're in Tidworth knock off on Friday, everyone's one bursts out the gates. They going home. Like no one's hanging around with each other, no one's doing nothing. When you finish, obviously you do like Reggie PT on a Friday, 12 o'clock, everyone has to go down the squadron bar 'cause we all had our own bars underneath our accommodation block and they were like, they were , they were basically funded by s squadron funds and um, it , you managed , you had to go for at least a couple of beers and not everyone would be down there. And then obviously we'd bomb burst out. Like we'd go to ha we had Hannah with Anna Road , we have hamburger the other way. We had Breman and then if you wanted to jump in the car a little bit longer, you could end up in am you could be in Amsterdam. So it was just like, it was just a perfect location for a young lad to basically enjoy yourself on the weekends, so to speak .

Speaker 1: 33:28

Yeah, yeah. You didn't , didn't think much of the ram in Tidworth?

Speaker 2: 33:34

Nah , you know what, I was only in Tidworth a little while 'cause after tele 10 I was like doing my final six months, you know, back in camp sort of thing. And then I was just, I was , I wasn't , oh I can't get in trouble for it now, but basically I was just doing one and then t up on parade on Monday and then disappearing again.

Speaker 1: 33:53

Um, alright mate , so what , what was your reception like when you went from, like, when you got put into a s squadron and like , uh, a troop and stuff, what was , how , how were you treated

Speaker 2: 34:02

Initially? No one was taught to no one. And it , 'cause bearing in mind the regiment had just got back from tele one . So they'd done the most of lad had done the invasion and they're all like, they'd all done a , they all got a good tour under their belt so to speak. So when we rocked up, I remember them calling us, and this isn't a racial term, they called us nigs. And I was like, what the does that mean? It was like obviously Newing greens or like a red or a crow, whatever. And no one would talk to you unless it was about work. Like they'd make you do jobs and stuff not , and then , uh, initially you , you get your initiation basically you get dragged outta your room on a random Friday night and dragged down the squadron bar and uh, made to drink <laugh> , uh, all sorts of concoctions. Uh , you end up drinking like pints of and all that sort of . Basically you're shaving your eyebrows off, all that sort of stuff. And I thought, well if this is right a passage gives a pin , gives a pin a and I'll drink it <laugh> . But , but um, even after that it was weird. Like it would , they more lads they chat to you a bit, but no one sort of like the older sort of lads never really, they didn't really sort of accept you in yet. So for it is nor that normally last for about a year, you know, and I noticed that progressively getting less and less as time went on when I was in the military, like lads became more like, didn't really do that anymore. But uh , to be honest, I wouldn't, it wasn't that bad. It wasn't, I wouldn't class it as bullying enough in it . It was just literally, you basically just had to get your name about and sort of get amongst it and then it just sort of gets easier and easier at the time. It's , that's the reason why, to be honest with you, my first tour I'd done tele IC seven. Um, the Scotch Union guards were short of a multiple of lads. And then when I heard that they needed a multiple, they asked for volunteers and I thought, right, there's my in. So I thought if I volunteer for this tour and I come back from that, then you'd , you'd hope your name holds a little bit more weight. Like you're not just like a little spr . So that was my thinking behind it anyway. But we were, initially we were putting , me and my two teammates , we were initially put in a s squad called Cyclops 'cause they're named after ships or something and uh , in , into RCR . But then after Chris we literally turned up to Regiment and we were there for two weeks and then we went on Christmas leave again. So back home. And then we were put into a different squadron, which I remained in for the whole time I was in the tank regiment. So we, we settled there, which was

Speaker 1: 36:31

Was which was

Speaker 2: 36:32

That badger ?

Speaker 1: 36:35

So there's one on the, you know, you notice the time kind of shortening between how long it took new blokes to integrate. Did that co , did that kind of coincide? Do you think it was like tempo of ops or maybe like was it, 'cause obviously the , the Army eventually moved, you know, the , the Germany thing stopped being such a thing. Do you think that was part of it or what , what what you reckon was kind of the reasoning behind it?

Speaker 2: 36:59

To be honest with you, I feel like everyone likes to say when they were in it was hard and all that sort of stuff. But I genuinely feel like, say with like the intake LA I turned up with, we were less of the mentality of like, ah , let's give this guy a time for a year. I think he just went. So it was a bit more of a is is he , if he's a good lad, he's a good lad. Like don't , you don't have to make him wait for a year to like , before he could hang around or chat to him . And if they're a div you just don't chat to him . But I feel like when I first got to my first squadron, they were almost trying to like encourage that behavior. It was almost like, nah , we had it shipped for a year, so you were having it shipped for a year. And I , I'll be honest, I was just sort of like, I don't really , I didn't see that with the sort of that , the sort of like lads that came through at my time. But I'm sure it still goes. Oh sure it carried on in other squadrons. But our , our particular squadron was, was class. Like we all got on, we had deal , obviously lad had deal disagreement and scraps and stuff, but it was all put to bed after you've had a had a punch up. It's done. But um, I , yeah, it definitely, it definitely like, it definitely lessened like the longer I was in, like it didn't , you didn't really see it happen anymore. But I dunno if it was the tall thing as well because there was, there was quite a big <inaudible> between the initial, the lads. He went on the initial ic it was quite a big gap before people went anywhere else. 'cause there was only 14 of us that went on telex seven from our regiment. And then the next tour , I think some lads did, some lads went to Kosovo to do some sneaky beaky like photo stuff. They , it was called um, India Company and they went to Kosovo that , but that was a small , that was like a almost, that was a small group that added and then after that it was tele 10 . So it was literally the gap between your initial one to tele 10 in from what I saw. So there was a big gap there that's not really going on it going anywhere. And we didn't, it is weird 'cause I don't really remember Afghan going on at the time. 'cause that hap did that kick off in 2001? Was it

Speaker 1: 39:04

2000? Well it , it did, but really for most of us it was 2006 when it went three Power battle group . Yeah,

Speaker 2: 39:11

I Gen 'cause yeah , I generally, when I was in , I don't remember hearing about Afghan at all.

Speaker 1: 39:16

Yeah, I think it was basically like they had , um, I think there was like a company in Kabul and that kind of thing going on. But generally speaking, I think , I think it was after like 2006 Afghan became a big, big deal though . I mean, like I said, we weren't, but it just, I I agree mate. It just didn't seem to be a thing at all until 2006 and then it seemed to just take over that and be, you know, the main , the main thing there.

Speaker 2: 39:39

Oh yeah .

Speaker 1: 39:41

Oh , so tele seven then , um, what , what , what did you, what did you do on that? Was it challenger based or, or what ?

Speaker 2: 39:48

Nah, so we were basically filling up back filling Scotch Dream guards and it is a dismounted role . So we were um, basically did all our pre-deployment training sort of infantry stuff. It was like we're doing , um, helicopter vcps , uh, Eagle Vcps as they called them . Um, we're doing all that sort of stuff, the riot training, all that sort of thing. And basically we were , um, on Land Rovers, like unarmed Land Rovers, so Gs like literally we had the metal Cajun on it and a bit of scrim. And then we had a couple of snatches as well. Uh , so we were basically, yeah, basically a dismounted roll . And we were as we were

Speaker 1: 40:26

Based , sorry babe ,

Speaker 2: 40:28

Go on mate .

Speaker 1: 40:29

So it was was gonna say Scott Street G then that, that would be, they'd usually have challenges, right? But they're just doing a , they just has to do a different role .

Speaker 2: 40:37

Yeah, both, both us were tank regiments. I think they 'cause the , the role we actually did with Meira on Telex seven was a bit of a hybrid role really. So we were, I'd say, say there was a month rotation, three weeks you'd be dismounted on, on the ground and then one week you'd do like standby QRF in Shiba on the Challies . So we, we'd always provide a crew for um, I think it was a trooper tanks of four tanks and they , they were permanently based at Shire , but logistics base , the cha four charlie twos. So you do like a rotation, you do three weeks of like patrols. Um, and then one week of like QRF for the cha . And the whole time, the whole time I was on tele seven , I got crashed out once and I basically sat at , sat on a junction watching a mosque and that was it. And didn't, nothing happened , um, challenger wise , but um, the Dismart stuff is a lot more interesting 'cause we were , um, borough rural south. We are down in a place called um , Kaza , which is a port. So we were doing patrols along the Q 80 border, the Iranian border, and then we'd go into like towns like ABA and SI dunno if you've heard it , a place called Safwan where there's a huge, there's a massive American base over the border , uh, camp Nav star it was called , um, literally near near our campus where we had Camp Booker, which was a prisoner war camp where ISIS was born. So that was literally a stones throw from where our camp was. So they had a big American prison there.

Speaker 1: 42:14

So when you were , um, when you were out on these jobs, did , what was the kind of the threats you

Speaker 2: 42:18

Were facing? Uh, IEDs really , um, uh, that tour was, in my opinion, it was a perfect tour for a young lad to learn. 'cause k Kinetically wise didn't really get shot at at all that there was a couple of incidents. Um, and then it was just about VB IEDs and actual IEDs. Um, you'd obviously get your own group every morning and you get the intel sort of from like what cars to look out for. And it was , it was quite good to be honest. You , it was like, it really helped you like build up like your soldiering skills. You know , you're looking out for number plates or you're doing vehicle checkpoints and searches and you're doing patrols through towns. It was , I I really enjoyed it and uh , it wasn't so full on , which would put you off doing another one, if you know what I mean.

Speaker 1: 43:07

Did you get any motors, rockets or anything like that ?

Speaker 2: 43:09

Um, we had a few instance , uh, we had, there was, there was in a place called Safwan . There was a IED factory there and um, the ar Iraqi army , we were actually on QRF at the time and the Iraqi army , uh, had basically done a knock on this house to go and question these people who obviously weren't local. They come from Basra , they come outta Basra . So they , 'cause they're a little quieter. Um, they obviously didn't realize they'd stumbled across an IED factory. These blokes inside basically just let rip out the windows at the Iraqi army. And they had , um, up a massive firefight. They crashed us out. Um, they're quite funny really because we were so unprepared. We were like jumped on the wagons and we were waiting for one of the lads to bring a gym p and we literally only had a vehicle mounted gym. P so bearing in mind we were on a Land rover, he ran out onto the vehicle with a gym p of no, but because you don't have the bar on the , so I like , how are you supposed to fire that ? Um, we, we ended up going to this place and what had happened is the guys inside had inside this IDF, she had run out of ammunition. They surrendered and then the Iraqi army just executed them . Literally, I couldn't believe we literally rocked up. I was 19 years old and they were just like six geezers with their heads like split . It was horrible. But yeah, they just basically executed these guys. And then that was probably one major incident that stuck out for me. And another one we lost , uh, we lost one lad guy called , uh, Gordon Pritchard. He was the hun I think he was a hundred soldier to be killed in Iraq. And he was killed by an IED , um, which was a tough one's take because we, I dunno about the other lads and , but I know certainly of an our model , but we fought the Iraqi army or the Iraqi police were involved in that. So basically as you come out of the port in um , GZA , there's only two ways you can go. You can go left or you can go right, that is it. There's no, you can't take a random route. Cross country , um, came out of the, we came out of the port sh a right 'cause you are on a water ration run. So every couple of weeks we'd have to take these big bowsers to, to ate , to fill out the water and supplies and stuff. So they knew we had to go. And um, as we come outta the Camp Gates, the Iraqi , I remember seeing it , the Iraqi police were like laughing . They were sort of like laughing and joking and it , it did it , you know, when something feels off. And then literally as he went around the corner, there was uh , ID blast and hit the front vehicle , uh, killed the commander straight away . And , um, the Iraqi army, I'm sure they started shooting at us. I dunno if they shot at us or shot in the air, but um, yeah, there was definitely some, there definitely wasn't. So something wasn't right there. There was definitely collusion. There's no way that you didn't know that was there because it was literally 50 meters from their checkpoint. So that, that put a sour taste in our mouth. 'cause these are the guys we've been trying to help as well. Was anyone else injured? Uh , yeah, the , I think the driver broke his few broken bones. Like he was very lucky. 'cause literally it was an EFP , um, IED So when I see the explosion, obviously you see this , I saw a black thing about the size of a basketball and it come flying out and straight through the driver's cab and straight past the driver and hit Pritt . It was the commander at the time. And then I think the lads in the back were, they were pretty like battered up, but it was nothing , I don't think it was too serious, but yeah . You remember hearing him like screaming on the radio and that like , it sounded, it sounded bad and obviously Pritt was killed unfortunately. Um, but that was, that was the only fatality we had , um, on that tour. And the rest of it was pretty, it was like, we had one, I think we had one rocket attack who was nearby. They were trying to bomb the, they were trying to rocket the prison. And then Do you remember when they, that I think it was a Norwegian paper, done a cartoon of Mohammed or something. It wasn't the Charlie Hebdo one . It wasn't that , that French one. It was the , I think some, someone from a Nordic country done a , a , a newspaper article about Mohamed . Uh , that , when that happened, it was literally, I was on stag one night on in a Sanger and literally the town erupted. It was just nearby. It was just everyone AKs firing everywhere. And it was just, it was mental. I think they were just doing, 'cause obviously they heard the news about this and then they'd wanted take it out on Eddie , I guess . Eddie Westerner . Really?

Speaker 1: 47:33

Yeah. So that was a , a Danish newspaper reprinted A Norwegian. A Norwegian , uh, so yeah, new , a new Norwegian newspaper reproduced, controversial Danish cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed. I was in Ste September, 2005.

Speaker 2: 47:48

Yeah, that's, yeah. That would've aligned at the time they were out there. So yeah, that was the only other thing that really stood out in my mind is , was that , um, yeah, that just erupted. That was the only sort of like kickoff we had from that town as well. Like it was quite passive down there. Um, throughout the tour we, we'd go to Ra b Palace a bit. We got shot at from the Iranian border when we, we went down to this camp. It was a nightmare to get there. You remember that video that you probably see it's got viral, that Amarillo video and the ladder dancing around the camp?

Speaker 1: 48:21

Oh , yeah , yeah ,

Speaker 2: 48:22

Yeah . It's down in the place called Al four , which is down the four peninsula. And it , it was a slog to get down there. So we had to drive through , um, where the Iraq Iran war happened. So you'd see loads of bond out tanks, loads of old mines, and then you'd have the Iranians. We had some pop shots coming from over the border, but obviously it wasn't accurate. We weren't gonna fire back. But , um, yeah, other than that, we had a couple of prisoners escape from that prison. Uh , camp Booker. Uh, they'd done the Bon over the Q 80 border, but that was a really interesting camp, to be fair. Like we, we were allowed, the Americans were quite receptive of us . They let us in there and have a couture of the camp. Um, so this is where they're , wherever they'd arrest these guys from Baghdad or Fallujah , all these places, they'd all basically come down south and they'd put 'em in this one place. And I've seen documentaries recently that said that is basically the birthplace of isis. Um , 'cause they put all these guys together and yeah. Then obviously they can share their ideas and that's where something was born.

Speaker 1: 49:24

Probably not the best idea. That

Speaker 2: 49:25

Was it. No , it's crazy. Crazy. I dunno why you would sep you'd separate , wouldn't you ?

Speaker 1: 49:30

No . Or do or do what the Iraqis did to the ones at the ID factory.

Speaker 2: 49:35

Exactly . Yeah .

Speaker 1: 49:36

See building <laugh> . Um, so all together mate, like when you were in Iraq at the time there . Yeah. What were you kind of, 'cause obviously you went back and we know we'll talk about the next tour you did, but when you were there at the time, what was your kind of feeling on the ground? Was it like things would get , things were on the up there, you know, could you see that we , you know, could you see how things were gonna turn out?

Speaker 2: 49:58

Definitely. I'm glad you reminded me actually, because when we were out there , um, it was the first time they held the elections in Iraq, you know, actual public elections. So we were heavily involved in like guarding the police stations, the polling stations and stuff. And I know it's a bit naive, but I was, I was 19 at the time and I thought if I go out there and I'd do my job properly, you know, you might be able to make a bit of a difference and make someone's life a bit better . And it sounds corny, but I genuinely believed it. Um, so every time I went out there, you hear these people say, oh , British soldiers are murderers. Or the Americans, I can't speak for the Americans, but I know hand on heart that all the lads that I worked with, I'd done nothing to be ashamed of myself. So I was very proud of like what we did and I could definitely see what we were doing was, was beneficial. We were doing all the hearts and mind stuff at schools. Um, bear you get the odd rock chucked at you , but they're kids. I'd throw rocks at soldiers as well if I did there . Um, and the reception, in my opinion, it wasn't that hostile compared to like other, other, other places . And I think it, it clearly goes on region you're in as well. 'cause we were in rural south, there wasn't that many targets for anyone to really aim at. So I feel like they weren't getting as much activity down there. So the people, we weren't really bothering them that much. We were just sort of patrolling and just almost like , just a presence really. Um, but yeah, I , I did , it did put my back up a bit because when I came home from r and RI went to, I was up Camden in North London and I came out the station, they had a big table there like protesting. They had these pictures and like in Iraq and stuff, and they were like British soldiers and murderers. And I remember just losing my. I basically just ripped all the posters off . The thing said , I basically said to him like , you lot dunno what you're talking about, because they're just like little diffs who just, they've never been anywhere. They're armchair armchair warriors and they just , they're speaking and his voice was authority. Like they actually know. And then my reality was we were there and it was, it was definitely not what they were saying. So it , he kind , it did put my back up , especially after one of the lads got killed as well. I was like, you have no idea. But as of as I'm older and older now and I've seen things, what they are, there might, there might have been some truth in that <laugh>

Speaker 1: 52:13

Yeah. On the macro scale kind of thing, like

Speaker 2: 52:16

Yeah. Yeah. But at the time, at the time I genuinely believed in what we were doing. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . I wasn't in , I wasn't into all the politics sort of stuff side of it. I just got told to go there and I'm going there.

Speaker 1: 52:27

So when you left then Yeah. Did you expect to go back?

Speaker 2: 52:32

No, I didn't. So I , I , I knew that it could go back at some point, but I didn't think it happens quick as it did. Um,

Speaker 1: 52:40

So what was, what was the next hole for you then ?

Speaker 2: 52:42

It was tell it 10 . So

Speaker 1: 52:44

That would be 2007.

Speaker 2: 52:46

Yeah. Correct. Yeah , I think did did you say you were on Tell it 10 as well?

Speaker 1: 52:50

I was, yeah, at the , um, out the cob with uh , maneuver , maneuver Sport bar group.

Speaker 2: 52:55

Yeah. So came back from Telex seven and then had a bit of pothole leave . We didn't, there wasn't such thing as um, like the decompression, like cypress stuff. Then it was just straight back to Germany, go on the and then go on , go on leave. Um, we came back and then we got put on a med man in Canada, which was a couple of months sort of exercise, which is unbel , I dunno if you ever gotta do them. But they were unbelievable. Um, and then literally when we came back from Canada, they're like, oh right. 'cause we were told if you got a tour , you're gonna get at least a year sort of in camp sort of thing. And as soon as we got back from Canada, we were like, right pre-deployment training, we're going back to Iraq. And I was like, what? I literally, typical, typical fashion I'd found myself a bird at the time. I was like, nah , I'm not going . I was like, it's taking the . But then , um, obviously I ended up going, but yeah, I was a bit, I , I gotta admit I was a bit miffed at how quick it came. I wasn't bothered the fact that I actually had to do it 'cause tours are way better than camp life in my opinion. Um, but it was just a bit annoying. It was so fast. I was like, okay. But that obviously turned out to be what happened in the years to come. But the , the , uh, the turnaround for tours were quite quick when they for , for , for the rest of the army. So yeah , I guess that was gonna be the new norm.

Speaker 1: 54:13

Can you just talk us through what a med band is of it ?

Speaker 2: 54:15

Yeah, so basically we went to Canada and they basically practicing like, so it's basically a massive, a massive exercise. So you got a battle group level, like infantry, you got obviously all the armor, you've got even air . We had air, we did a massive firepower display, which was unbelievable. Artillery helicopters a lot. So basically it's just like a big war game really. So you thick , there's a live firing. There was a live firing section to the exercise I think that , dunno how long that lasted. And then the rest of the exercise you have um, teez kit fitted. So I dunno what you had in the , you had the little vests that beep. And then on the, on the tanks we'd obviously have a , it's like a massive quar really. We'd fit all these laser kit onto the vehicles. And then it's basically, we just as boots on big war game really. And uh, it last you are out on the, out on the ground. I think you're out on exercise for about three or four weeks. Luckily I'd done a summer one, so it was, it was hot, it was nice weather. But in the winter , and if you , if you do, you end up doing a winter mid man , it's uh , I've heard it's not as nice as obviously snowing and freezing cold. But yeah, it's basically just brushing up on like your , on your, your actual skills and obviously working with a battle group and stuff.

Speaker 1: 55:29

So they're telling 10 for them . Um, what was the, the , the role for two RTR on that were you deploying? 'cause you , you're challenger tanks , right? So is it the same kind of thing and you're taking out a bit of everything?

Speaker 2: 55:43

Nope . So again, I didn't do my, the role I joined to do , I ended up, we did a warrior conversion course and then I was a , I was a gunner. I'd done my gunnery course and I'd done my gunner MEC in the time between tours . So I , I don't quite weather gunnery, so I ended up being a gunner and a warrior. So the Highlanders run a conversion course for us. And then, which is obviously just , we obviously got a basic knowledge of like driving and maintenance, that sort of stuff. So it's a compressed course. It was just basically teaching us how to crew the warriors. 'cause obviously as a driver, the Warriors are such a different platform to the challenge too . Like when you break on a warrior, it rocks for about three minutes. So the gunner has to wait for the gun to settle on a challenger two. It's all, it's literally station control pad , literally it's all smooth as butter . So we had to almost relearnt how to, how to gun. Um , so we re-roll. We were a war , we were out on the Warriors and we were basically with the Irish guards but Irish guards battle group. And we had, obviously we had dismount in the , we were gearing up to basically have dismounts in the back and we were initially told we were going to Basra Airbase. So that's where we initially told we were going. But basically we've done all the pre-deployment training sayings before, but just the Warriors . So you have your range package in Germany and I think we had to come over to the UK for a bit as obviously a bit of training . But um, yeah, so we were out there in the war on , on the Warriors basically.

Speaker 1: 57:14

So who had the challenges on on that? Was it Cyclops Squad?

Speaker 2: 57:18

Cycl? Yeah , Cyclops. They had, they had the Challenger twos . They were down near the Danish camp, you know, on, on , uh, in the air base . So they'd have the bottom end, but they didn't want , uh, they're obviously based out there 'cause they seen challenger twos as escalation as a warrior is supposed to look friendly. I dunno . It was ridiculous. But, so

Speaker 1: 57:38

You had , you had all the other squadrons there in Warrior

Speaker 2: 57:41

Just No, there's just two I think Cyclops there on , on Channel two and then just Badger were there on, on Warriors. I don't think the two other squadrons were deployed. They were still in Ger they were still in Germany at the time. Okay . Um, it wasn't the whole u the whole regiment . We were basically part of a battle group. So , uh, and you

Speaker 1: 58:01

Were just providing crews not this month or anything ?

Speaker 2: 58:04

No, just cruise . Yeah , just crew . The vehicles.

Speaker 1: 58:08

So who's , and it was the, so Irish, who was you say in the back?

Speaker 2: 58:12

Irish, Irish , Irish guards.

Speaker 1: 58:14

Right. Okay.

Speaker 2: 58:15

So them what company we had, but they're , they're really decent lads to be fair.

Speaker 1: 58:20

What what part of the cob we in

Speaker 2: 58:22

Initially we were, I can't describe it . I'd say it was quite central in the cob. We , um, we had a little camp, I can't remember the name of it, but basically we went to the cob and then when we got there we were told , um, two, two troops are gonna go to Basil Palace. And my troop was picked two, I think two and three troop were picked . My troop was picked to go. I was buzzing because obviously I knew the palace is where it was more, you're gonna get to do more, do you know, more interesting. And the others would stay. The other two squadron, the other two troops, sorry , would stay in, in the cob. Um, so the first two weeks we were just grafting, we were just up armoring the vehicles. So just, we were down opposite the Danish campings on Big Sandpit . Just basically up armoring and putting the extra armor on. 'cause the Warriors came with the Warriors without obviously the added armor on there. So we had to fit all the, obviously the RPG cages and obviously the, the other arm onto the side of the vehicles.

Speaker 1: 59:21

So what were like, what was , uh, like the, 'cause obviously, you know, you'd gone when you , you'd , you'd been there in 2005, now you're back from 2007. Could you kind of smell a bit of a change in there?

Speaker 2: 59:34

Um , immediately, like we were literally at , in that period when we were doing up arm in the tanks , um, I was coming back from lunch once down, walking back down to the tank park and we had a sustained, like a , a big mortar attack. I dunno if you remember, but at the back of the camp, do you remember there was , there's a little prison there, there's a prison right on the wire, just on the other side. And uh, obviously the mortar alarm went off. And I remember seeing the, I hope the bloke was all right , but the Sanger , uh, on the corner got , took a direct hit from a mortar and uh , obviously we just laid on the floor like waiting for it , waiting for it to stop. But I, I immediately knew then I was like, this is very different from what it was before. 'cause the Inte seven, I think we came under rocket attack maybe twice in six or seven months. Um, and literally we'd been here

Speaker 1: 1:00:23

A ,

Speaker 2: 1:00:24

A night and like we'd got moved Gear and Mor had already , um, multiple times because I remember being on the phone home as well, on the internet calf thing. And then the mor I think the Chinese rocket started landing in camp. So we were getting, and I , you got a pretty quick grasp of it . It , it had changed before even going out the wire.

Speaker 1: 1:00:46

Mm-hmm <affirmative> So what , what was it , um, when you went down to the Palestine , what was the situation there ? Oh , actually can you just kind of explain to

Speaker 2: 1:00:53

People what the Palace

Speaker 1: 1:00:54

Is and where it

Speaker 2: 1:00:54

Is ? So Basra Palace is obviously, I think it was Uday Hussein. We stayed in Uday Hussein's Palace, which is Onlan Suns . And it was right on the river. I can't, is it the Chat Arab? I think it's , yeah , yeah , it's the chat Arab River River . So it's just , um, I always get, I always get it mixed up because I know obviously you got

Speaker 1: 1:01:21

Got ,

Speaker 2: 1:01:22

You got the Euphrates over there as well . Is that a spot map here ?

Speaker 1: 1:01:25

Yeah, I got the spot map me . Um, hang on . I'm pretty sure it's the , well , let's , let's check here it is. The chat . Yeah, yeah , yeah, of course. 'cause the Shadow Arab Hotel was up on the top. It , yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:01:39

So yeah, it's , um, a camp, obviously you , you obviously know yourself, but is a camp right by the chat Arab River, but you're pretty much, you're in, you're really in Vara , you know, like when they say like the air base is Basra Air airbase, it's , you know , it's like, it's kind of like Gatwick. They say London ga it ain't London, but you are , you're away from gat, you're under , you're away from London. But it's, it's nearby. But yeah, obviously , um, yeah, it's, it was , um, I was , I was slightly like slightly quite happy that I was going there 'cause I thought it's gonna be way more interesting than what they , what the other lads are doing. So , um, yeah , well once the vehicles rolled up our apartment, we had a big convoy move into Basel , which was that , that really set the tone just from that, that journey in that just the initial journey into Basel Palace itself,

Speaker 1: 1:02:34

Right ? Kickoff,

Speaker 2: 1:02:35

Yeah. Yeah. So obviously we did the most of the moves at night. Uh , then the night move into there and literally as you come over there's , there's a few bridges going over a river as you come up to Basra . And literally as soon as we came over the bridge, you just see all these through the fur sites , you'd see all these heads popping off the roofs. Um, it's normal in a rack obviously for 'em to sleep on the roof 'cause it's hot. It was a summer talk , but they were looking a little too hard, if you know what I mean. And uh, so I was thinking, right , obviously it's obviously gonna go off here and then crept into the city itself, like edging forward. And then obviously it just all went off. Like you just got engaged from like more positions. And it's weird 'cause in a tank in a , in a warrior, small arms do do not bother you. What's, you're literally sitting there , I'm having a chat, like I'm having a chat with you now I chat to my commander like this and you'd hear all rounds pinging off the side, you wouldn't be bothered. Um, it's that when you hear the RPGs like wish over the top. 'cause uh , they had different, obviously , uh, different RPGs which could penetrate armor and stuff. But um, yeah, so the initial journey in was, was , uh, very busy to be said . We basically had to So were you paddle down ? Yeah, well no, not really. Um, we were just in contact the whole way through, so it was, I can't really remember timings, but it , it was definitely a good few hours. We were just sort of moving forward, forward, forward and then holding junctions and then people coming through. Um, but yeah, it was a , it was definitely , uh, that's how it started, how it meant to go on, you know, it was like it carried on like that throughout the tour, really. Um, mainly 'cause obviously we do our , like I said, we do our moves at the night nighttime most of the time. But it was a weekly thing 'cause obviously you'd have your resupplies into the , into the city and we'd have to come out and then sit on a junction and basically just to sit in Target and you're just waiting to get shot at basically protecting a , like a VP of vulnerable point and then waiting for the convoy to come through soy. So wouldn't that see I haven't heard that in a long time. A like I , I'm terrible with things like that . You seem to forget the little details, but obviously Yeah, we used to do obviously would do them as well. But I , yeah, I knew, like I said, you like when you're asked, I knew straight away it was a very different tour . It was , it was, it was completely different.

Speaker 1: 1:04:59

So like you said, the Warriors, they're pretty good with small arms RPGs.

Speaker 2: 1:05:06

Yeah . So

Speaker 1: 1:05:06

Biggest threat was like the, we should , I should explain that the E fps what, what an EFP is as opposed to like a normal like , you know , your kind of traditional IEDs .

Speaker 2: 1:05:16

Yeah .

Speaker 1: 1:05:17

Can you just talk people through I , um, to talk people through EF PS and why they're so dangerous for armor ?

Speaker 2: 1:05:24

So EF ps we, we, like I said before, we saw them on telex seven. So obviously , uh, initially with IEDs, I dunno what they were using, but a lot of the times it was 107 mil Chinese rockets. They sort of like bury them and then put like some debt on it and they'd wait there and basically it's just a large explosion and they put ball bearings on it and stuff like that. But the EFP , um, it was a shaped charge. So basically the only way I could describe it is like a large bean can imagine a large bean can, you'd pack it with all sorts of. They'd be like nuts, bolts, whatever with molted into a ball . And then they'd put like a , a sheet of metal almost concaved on the inside of the bean can, which I'm assuming that's what chart the shapes, the chart like shapes it. So obviously there are a lot more , um, there are a lot more effective on armor than sage . The normal rocket exploding at the side of the road. 'cause it would be a shape charge and it would be the impact of the IED itself would be more concentrated and it would penetrate armor. Um, and sometimes they'd obviously they'd put 'em in daisy chain formation. So you'd have multiple IDs sometimes. Um, unfortunately that's how one of our adss , um, he, he got, he got, he got hit and passed away from one of the IDs like that. But yeah , um, yeah, basically it's a shade charge . It's a lot more effective on, on armor than just say a normal explosion.

Speaker 1: 1:06:52

I think there was a , there was a challenger penetrated by one . Was that tele 10 or was that tele ?

Speaker 2: 1:06:57

No , it was take nine. That was my mate Steve Shine . So that , that was a different, that was a bit different that, so what they'd done is they'd , they'd melted a hole in the tarmac and put the explosives in the tarmac tarmac over it and it went off under the driver's cab. Um, it penetrated the vehicle but , um, Steve lost his leg. But the, the vehicle itself was, we could, we could still operate. So it wasn't just , the vehicle wasn't destroyed, it was just, it was damaged. So , um, but yeah, obviously the bottom of the tanks are quite flat, aren't they ? I know with the Mastiffs and stuff like that, they brought on the design to angle them angle the , the hu um, of the vehicle. So I think that obviously helps with like underbelly, IEDs

Speaker 1: 1:07:42

So did it , did that won't actually get in like, if you know what I mean. Did that penetrate the armor ? It was a mold that the blast through him up kind of, well

Speaker 2: 1:07:49

There's just, there's no actual additional armor you can put on underneath. It's just flat metal. So it did penetrate, it went through and it took Steve's leg off. Um, but in terms of challenge two, a challenge two's never been, I don't think it's ever been like penetrated from the side. Um, I've seen a , ID go off of the Challenger two and it literally just bounced off it. But uh , did you ,

Speaker 1: 1:08:14

Did you used to have the challenges driving in front of the Warriors? Is there a light

Speaker 2: 1:08:18

Lead in the No. So we were out on a op one evening near the, near the Sheer Flats. You know, the sheer , you probably know the Sheer Flats pretty dodgy part of bajo to be fair. Um, I was obviously in the Warrior, there was a cover , I was lead vehicle and then there was a challenge or two behind me. Uh, I saw something funny on my sights , uh, a thermal image on a , a sort of thermal sort of , um, I could see something warm basically on the side of the road at nighttime. Spoke to my commander, said like, look , what'd you think of that? He wasn't too concerned about it . So we were like , okay, did the usual 10 to your ase cheeks together when you go past it, nothing happened. And the Challenger two behind went past it, bang. So obviously they were , wait , they were waiting for, they were trying to obviously go for the spectacular try to take up the cha . Um, then someone was obviously watching, they remotely detonated it and they just bounced off aside . But if that hit the Warrior, I don't think it would've ended as as nicely. But you would think, you would think what he said. You , you'd think you'd send the Challies first.

Speaker 1: 1:09:21

Yeah. So talk us through how , how important, how important the thermal sites were for you.

Speaker 2: 1:09:26

Um, they're really good to be fair. Um, massively important. 'cause obviously in nighttime what you , you're not gonna see nothing through through a normal psych . Uh, the Challenger twos obviously famous like way better than what the Warrior was. The Warrior one was a little bit temperamental, but it was still, it still was good enough to do the job. Um, but yeah, I feel like it definitely gave us sort of an advantage over the , over the people we , we were like fighting with, you know , the Shar Mardi um , or Iranians, whoever, who knows. But I definitely feel like it gave us a bit more of an advantage over them . Um, but uh , they , like I said, they were a little bit tender Warriors ones were a little bit temperamental 'cause we've had IEDs go off before my thermal site went . It knocked my thermal site out for about half an hour. So basically you're blind. Um, but yeah, it def it definitely helped. Um, but I would've preferred to be in a Challenger two to be honest. 'cause they're way more advanced than it's couldn't 'cause I think, well I dunno when the Warriors came out like sixties or 70 or so .

Speaker 1: 1:10:30

Oh , it's proper Cold War stuff in it .

Speaker 2: 1:10:32

Yeah, yeah . Everything ,

Speaker 1: 1:10:34

Everything's bolted on rather than an initial design in it , you know, and that you're always gonna get,

Speaker 2: 1:10:39

Yeah , it's the gunnery, like I said, it was completely different 'cause it was all hand control. You could, you could Travis left or right on power on batteries, but you had to elevate and press by hand. It was literally like imagine how you'd see in World War ii , you'd see him like doing that sort of thing. But on the challenge too is a PlayStation control pad and you just track like that and if you see a target you can press this button called aided lay press that, and then it just follows the cha follows the target itself.

Speaker 1: 1:11:05

Amazing .

Speaker 2: 1:11:06

Um, yeah it ,

Speaker 1: 1:11:09

Thermal sites you could pick out what, like you could

Speaker 2: 1:11:12

Pick out what looked like IEDs and that kind of thing. Um, no I wouldn't say it's clear. Like it , it's not , it wasn't like open and shut but it definitely gave you a better indicator of like you can, you can see like sometimes you could see a heat signature and it was an IED so they definitely saved lives in my opinion. Um, yeah, so they , they , yeah, they definitely did help but obviously sometimes you can't, sometimes you just can't pick 'em up, can you ? They're so well hidden . Um, it's is luck of the draw really and you just gotta be observant I guess. But it , that's the main thing. Like you said, when you're on patrol at the View , that's what that is. What you're scanning for. You're looking for heat signatures at the side of the road. And then obviously if you get contacted then you obviously you can travel soft and scan for targets in debt for whatever you can scan for people like running around. Um, what's the first time put rounds down there? Uh, first time I put rounds down was we went out on an op on date and it was, I dunno what it was actually for, we were going to a town just outside of Basra . It was like the suburbs of Basra . Um, we got there. It was just a really weird feeling 'cause no , you know the atmospherics you , it's normally busy. Um, it was dead. It was, and we were driving down this road and I just remember this ambulance coming flying past us and the back doors were open. There were two armed guys in the back and there was a geezer , he was clearly dead. He was laying on the floor and like you could see the top of his head swinging. I dunno what had happened that flew past us. And everyone was sort of like, what's going on here? So then it was, it was deemed that we'll get out of it . 'cause he was, he was definitely something wasn't right. So we basically came back the way we came, I was lead vehicle. Um, and then it all kicked off at the back of the convoy. Uh , there's, there's videos of it on YouTube actually. Um, uh, but we , yeah, we were getting small arms, RPGs , uh, and then we were driving down the road and I saw this kid run out the side of the , this alley and he puts out behind a lamppost. It was like a box and then he ran straight. It was too , I couldn't have shot him in time. There's no way. Um, so I wanted, I said to the boss like , stop, like we had to stop the vehicle. I said, look , I feel it's an ID behind that lamppost. Like can I deny it? 'cause we used to be allowed to sometimes shoot them and then blow the IED off instead of calling eight or anyone like that. Um, we , but we had to put it up to hire and they said no. The only other road that we could go down, no , no cars were going down there. They were basically driving up and turning around and bugging out. And I was like, I do not want to go down there. Uh , and then obviously it was, it was deemed in their infinite wisdom that we're going down there. And also , uh, we initially saw, I saw YED in the side of the road. I put a 30 mil through it missed . Um, and then you had to adjust and then , uh, the second shot hit that set the i that denied that id. And then it was just small arms all the way down then really. But never, you know, you get that question from all city or t did you get anyone ? And you never really know, do you because I , I'm not gonna get out the vehicle and go and check, but, you know , but I lost count on the coax rounds. I fi like chain gun I fired and 30 mil , um, fired that on a few other occasions as well , um, by the sheer flats . But that was the first time I got like rounds down. 'cause on my first tour, the whole tour didn't fire us . Like you didn't fire a single round. Even though we, we had like the IED uh , the IED attack and stuff, never fired my rifle, but , and apart from when I was on the range, so that was the first time I ever sort of got rounds down. Um, it wasn't that exciting, but it was kind of cool thinking to myself. I've actually, I've actually managed to get to do my job now properly. But it does make me think , I always think to myself in 30 cal route , the 30 uh , mill rounds, like where do they end up? 'cause they thought he went through about 30 ounces after it. But um, yeah, it was , it was never like, I never , um, I never had any sort of like, you know, you think, oh , I'm gonna get that clear cut shot, guy's gonna pop out, drop to his knee and you're thinking, yeah, I'm gonna get him. Um, never actually got to do, never that never actually happened to me. But it did happen to a few other blokes. Like my, one of my mates he shot , it was um , there was a public order out there at the time you probably remember. And uh , he was a driver and he shot someone with a pistol out his driver's cabinet . It got that bad. Um, but that never happened to me 'cause obviously I'm up in the turt , I'm out the way. So for me it was mainly ID threats and then obviously you'd get in small arms contacts and stuff, but you never really, never really know dear . Like why they , I never got to go find out. I'm not gonna get out. I'm gonna have a look. But , um, well

Speaker 1: 1:15:55

I think people misunderstand is like , 'cause when you think of Iraq, I think a lot of people think desert. And like you said, it's like a city, you know, Baswell city is a city. Like the built , there's buildings everywhere, there's rooftops everywhere, windows everywhere, you know, and then noise , noise distorts, you know, it's, it's like , it's not this like movie picture that people think it is with a just guy standing in an alleyway. It's just, just haven't got a clue where stuff are coming from. We should say as well, mate. Like , um, explain to people what rules of engagement you were on at this time.

Speaker 2: 1:16:27

I think it was Card Alpha. Um , can't remember. But basically it was very strict initially. Obviously you weren't allowed to fire like fire us fired upon. Um, but then it did change throughout the tour you were allowed to shoot Dickers. Um, 'cause we never used to be allowed to shoot, shoot at 'em . 'cause obviously we'd see guys on the phone all the time on the Bridges. They'd be watching the convoys coming in or they'd be out the window on the blower on the phone and we would get hit literally down the end of the road. Like it was , it was so obvious we'd have a car following those guys on the phone and then we'd get attacked like 20 minutes later. Um, and then it came into effect, I think it was more like towards halfway through the tour they were like, look, you are allowed to fire at Dickers now. So , um, I never had to do it, but I'm sure it would've deterred them from doing it so brazenly. But they were literally taking the. Like they, they didn't care. Um , they're quite , to be honest, and they are quite ballsy in my, in my opinion when they , when we were there initially. Um, but yeah, a lot, like you say , a lot of the threat was IEDs. We had, we did have quite a good fair few contacts, but it was nothing worth writing home about. It was just, I, I felt almost, I don't really talking about contacts now , I almost feel like a bit of a, I can't really talk about 'em because I'm sat in a tank license safe and then you've got the infantry boards going , kicking doors down and there's me sat behind Armor just sort of like playing PlayStation basically. <laugh> Well talk , talk us through what they, what what you were taking those,

Speaker 1: 1:17:56

The dismounts in the back, what , what you were taking 'em out to do then why they were kicking down doors and that kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 1:18:01

So initially they were used , they were , they'd done on the train for the strike cops and stuff where you go into like obviously hu like houses and stuff and pick up basically the IED makers and sort of the ringleaders. Um, and then as we deployed , uh, I think another IRY battalion took over that role. I can't remember who it was . I wanna say it's the rifles four rifle. I think it was the rifles took over . Yeah, I think they took over that role. And then we basically had the Irish guards and the dismounts in the back. So when we were on patrol, they were just , um, don't really know , don't really know what their role was to be honest with you. They'd obviously get like, I dunno what their actual tasking was, but obviously we'd get them out and they'd be patrolling the streets and stuff. But I think they were very, they were very miffed 'cause they were told that they were gonna be doing the door kicking and they'd done all the pre-deployment training and all that sort of stuff from the <inaudible> and that for it . And then it got changed pretty late on. So they ended up kind of like not doing what they were trained to do. So I , I remember them being pretty miffed about that, but it is what it is. I think it was a , it was a four rifle, it was a rifles battle group, so I'm sure they, they probably just pulled rank and like we're doing that <laugh> . But , um, we did have some like, interesting guys come in the back. We had a couple of um, American like intelligence agency guys getting in the back. So we'd have them in the back, we'd have no infantry and then we'd drive out at night and go on all on the patrols and stuff. We'd plot up and they'd literally disappear for three or four hours and go bug ID factories and stuff. Um , amazing . Yeah, because obviously you're not expecting Americans to get in the back of these blokes who were literally wearing trainers and stuff. It was, it was mad. Um , and then obviously next to our accommodation block we had like the SF guys as well. So we used to see them cutting about kind of air cuts . Like you uh, got Gucci, we got all the Gucci weapons and that and obviously, so they were obviously we knew they were about as well, we should . So what , what , what about the , uh,

Speaker 1: 1:19:56

'cause obviously that BA palaces got hammered by mortars and stuff. What was that like having there

Speaker 2: 1:20:03

As a mentor mate? Um, yeah, you know, as well as I do, like, we were literally getting smashed daily. Like I, I , I can't, I couldn't even give you an example of how many I how many , uh, rockets are fired at us each day. But it was, if, if you didn't get rocketed, I'd say at least two or three times a day. It , it was weird. Something was up. Um, unfortunately we obviously we were our accommodation, we were in US palace, which was basically right on the sh um, and they were firing at us from across the, across the river you'd see the marshlands, which is um, I think it was Babylon in the regional times that's like , it was literally supposedly like paradise hundreds and hundreds of years ago. But they were basically just mortaring us from over the river and firing Chinese rockets. They were coming through our wind like through the walls every day . So we'd obviously had to bring up tarry cinder blocks up around, around the walls. Um, everyone's beds were like lower than the blocks. Um, but yeah, we were just getting absolutely smashed. Um, we used to have a, we used to have a fridge actually out on the balcony, which overlooked the sha and every time you opened it, if you let it drop it, it'd go and it'd sound like a mortar when they drop it in the tube. So we amount times it alas diving on the floor, it was just some div getting a bottle of water out the fridge. But , um, yeah, we had, unfortunately we lost , um, one other guy, guy called uh , dad Flowers. He was a Remi lab , so they're attached to us, but they're basically like , um, they're like us, you know, they , they work with us, they live with us. And uh , he was, he was working on a vehicle down the tank park and he got killed by a mortar around actually. So yeah, they were ha they were very , very effective and very accurate as well. But to be fair, they , they'd had years to hone, hone their skills and bomb in that one part of town, you know? Yeah. But , um, yeah , yeah, it ,

Speaker 1: 1:21:55

We weren't able to just hang around outside or anything like that. It was all,

Speaker 2: 1:21:59

Yeah, we, we , yeah, I dunno if you remember it, but basically when we used to have to go to scoff , we'd have to go over that bridge and uh, there was a little sign on the thing saying run across it. 'cause obviously a sniper would try and shoot you . And , uh, you , you did used to get the old pot shot , like when you, so we used to have the hard target over the bridge and then obviously it was just Hesco City then. Um, there was just like little tunnels, like tunnels with basically providing cover. But yeah, literally from beginning to the end of the tour it was, it was relentless. Like they, they just didn't stop. Um, but yeah, I guess it made, it passed the time. I guess in the end it is weird 'cause you end up getting used to it is sort of like, you're not almost not bothered. 'cause it literally becomes, it becomes part of the norm, doesn't it?

Speaker 1: 1:22:48

And what are you doing then , like when you are not out on ops, what's your normal day ? What was your normal kind of day like? In fact, just talk us through what , what a normal day might be like .

Speaker 2: 1:22:59

Uh , in the palace it'd just be , uh, get up in the morning. Uh , one of us would have to go over to HQ to sort out an interpreter for, normally, normally a night patrol. But if we did do quite a few day patrols as well. But if we had no patrols on, it would literally just be a case of um, eat sleek , uh, a bit of me time , if you know what I mean. And , uh, and uh , in U Day's Palace we were lucky enough to have like a, like a , a gym set up in the middle, literally in the middle of the hallway. So the accommodations in the, on the second floor and literally down the bottom there was basically just a gin there. And that's when obviously I started my, my little love affair with weights. 'cause I , I used to have , like I said in the Army, I hated Peter . I couldn't stand it. But then I found something that I was actually all right at lifting some weights and that. So if you weren't training, you'd just be sort of munging it on your bed, watching your little pool DUD players or, yeah, that was about it really. But there , to be honest with you, there wasn't many days where we had nothing. It was like we were always on the patrol. Sometimes we'd be on back-to-back drills. We'd be out a lot. But , um, on the , on the rare occasion you did have time to chill. That's you just typical sort of like typical stuff you'd do normally? Nothing. Nothing. We couldn't go outside and play football or anything like that. 'cause obviously obviously the um, IDF threat, so it was obviously now , but the main ,

Speaker 1: 1:24:22

Sorry mate.

Speaker 2: 1:24:23

The maintenance of the vehicles,

Speaker 1: 1:24:25

Did you say ? Yeah, like how , how , how did you get that done considering that, you know, you've got this mortar threat and everything all the time.

Speaker 2: 1:24:32

So we, we had like a very small vehicle park , which is right. They put it as close to our accommodation as possible and they basically put blast walls like a circle. Um, and then we had the , the vehicles up against the wall and basically we obviously minimize it as much as we can. We wouldn't put, I think we'd staggered it to be honest. We didn't send everyone down there at one time to work on their vehicles. They'd stagger it so there was less people down the vehicle park. Um, but obviously maintenance needs to be done sometimes like track bashing and stuff, you have to do it. Um, it was a bit of a weird, it was a bit of um , a funny one really like , 'cause the Warriors used to, you'd get issues with him and stuff. And I remember saying to my driver, I was like , how come ours has never broken down? And he's like, I've never serviced it. I was like, what? I thought you are taking the litchi . He didn't do oil, he didn't check the oil, didn't do nothing. He just winged it. Which was just stupid to be honest. But in the end it turned out to be a blessing in disguise 'cause our vehicle didn't break down ever. The only thing that broke is obviously the air conditioning 'cause that breaks straight away. But , uh, well on on

Speaker 1: 1:25:34

On that note me , can you explain to people the kind of conditions, what it was like inside a warrior?

Speaker 2: 1:25:39

It was disgusting. It was disgusting . It was a summer tour , so obviously you got all your body army , your helmet and all that sort of stuff on. Um, I can't remember the temperatures, but it was, it was hot. It was hot, you know, yourself , um, me being ginger as well is extra, extra treacherous like with sunburn and that. But um, yeah, you'd literally get like a cooler. You get your boxes of water out the cooler in the morning and literally, I'm not joking, an hour later it's like drinking kettle water and you'd be out on patrol. I've been out on , I was out for 10 hours, 12, however long, man. And you'd sweat that much. Your clothes would be completely drenched. And by the time you get into camp, they're bone dried . They've got all these horrible salt marks on them . You could literally, I could take my trousers up and stand them up on their own. It was disgusting. And um, we had a couple of occasions when lads would go down with heat exhaustion, especially I felt sorry for the lads in the back called the i infantry pods. 'cause you didn't wanna have , um, I think they only had some smaller vehicles called Bulldogs, not us . They could leave the roof. They had likes some mortar hatches they could leave open to give 'em a bit of air. But in the warrior, his door closed and they're just, and they , they didn't really open the hatches on the top because , um, obviously the, the fre of someone just chucking a grenade sort of thing, you know. Um, but yeah, it was, it was, I I I can't speak for the infantry lads in the back. I know for a fact it would've been worse 'cause it would be dusty in there. At least I can stick my head out the top of the turret for a bit. But it was, it was probably the worst conditions I've ever been in hands down because they used to sit and dance . They , they did sing and dance about like , oh we've got air con for 'em now. They're air con . They literally, they literally broke within a few weeks and then they were like, we can't get spares out to theater . So it was pointless.

Speaker 1: 1:27:24

Did you ever see those body armors that they brought out with the fans in you ?

Speaker 2: 1:27:28

No, I never know . We had, I think they osprey at the time

Speaker 1: 1:27:32

That had these like fans on. I mean they , they were just the , the most ridiculous things you've ever seen in your life. It didn't work either, but that , that was someone's idea was like all that prob probably some , someone got paid 10 million to think of sticking a fan on Body album mate . It didn't work. But , um,

Speaker 2: 1:27:48

Yeah, I never saw that. But in regards to Body Armor on Telex seven, I dunno if you ever saw it. It came out for a little, I can't remember the name of it. It was , what the hell was that I had , we trial , we , we trialed that you can't even aim your rifle in the prone position. It was ridiculous. Yeah, yeah. I think that memory is that , yeah. But yeah. Oh , that's what you're saying

Speaker 1: 1:28:10

On the temperatures it was about fifties air temperature and then in the back about 70 you could get up to in the daytime.

Speaker 2: 1:28:17

Yeah. I , I'm not surprised.

Speaker 1: 1:28:21

Speaking of daytime ops, did you do that op when, you remember when a rack won a football game and there was an puy going on and there was, did they win it on ?

Speaker 2: 1:28:30

I feel did they win that on penalties or something? I I , I think I do . I , I think I do remember that,

Speaker 1: 1:28:37

But there was a daytime puy where there , and it , but it was the same day a rack had won a football game and it was, that was just, 'cause that was one they had the, the brigadier was coming out with us, with the Warriors and passed out before he got to the, you know, that long road that leaves out the cop mm-hmm

Speaker 2: 1:28:52

<affirmative>

Speaker 1: 1:28:53

He passed out before he got to the end of the , before he got to the main gate, I had to be , uh, taken out. It is his , his bright idea to go in the middle of the day May . But , um, but anyway . So when you were at , when you were at the Palestine , were you there when it shut down?

Speaker 2: 1:29:08

Yeah, we were there when it shut down. We obviously before it shut down, we obviously, I dunno if you ever did it, but we had to go to the p jock as well. Did you ever go to the PJCC that I I I , I never actually got to go there, but a another part of my troop went and , um, I know for a fact that was, that was basically just a Turkey shoot every night from the Green Factory. But , um, yeah, when, when they handed the palace over, we, we obviously were part of that convoy on the way out.

Speaker 1: 1:29:36

What did , what did what , what did you feel like leaving the, the palace? Oh , so actually I , you know, let's just take a second to explain actually. 'cause we we're talking here like two people who kind of know what was going on there. But

Speaker 2: 1:29:48

Yeah,

Speaker 1: 1:29:49

Can you just explain to people kind of what was happening in , in Vara at the time in terms of shutting down these, these locations?

Speaker 2: 1:29:58

Um, in what sense do you want

Speaker 1: 1:30:00

As in like, you know, like this kind of, you know , so there was obviously, you know, 'cause when, and you know, you had , like I said , you had the p jock , you had , you know, there was Shadow Arab, there was the old state building and they were gradually closing these locations down in the city and pulling all the bricks out. And it was part of a deal that had been made with the Jay Almadi who were the main kind of Shia militia and the , I think it was Bar the Brigade was the other one, wasn't it? Which was the more Iran, like the Iranian one. And then, yeah , and then we , yeah , the , the , the , the plan was if we left that they'd stock attacking us. Was the plan. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:30:39

With the other , with the other camps closing , uh, didn't really feel too much . Didn't really feel too much about it. But obviously when, 'cause you'd think, oh , like I'm in Badger Palace. I was just more concerned about what was happening in Badger Palace. Um, but yeah, when we found out, obviously we were getting , we were pulling out and on the terms we are pulling out, it was a , a bit a pill to swallow, man, because you think you like us personally. Just my squadron, we lost three guys and I thought, well , we're just gonna give it back. Um, it was, it was very bit a pill to swallow. Um, I don't think anyone took, I think we would've rather stayed, we would've rather stayed there to be honest. Um, and then obviously to rub some salt in the winds, what you said, like there, when we were on the convoy out, I could literally see through the firm , you could literally see through the Hermo site , you could see the Jay , Shar , Marty armed, the people we've been fighting for seven, well , I wouldn't say seven months all than previous telex , uh, the people we've been scrapping with for all that time. And they lit , it almost felt like they were just stood there laughing, like with thumbs up, like a , like a middle finger to us. And like we were leaving with our tail between our legs and they tried to make on the news, it wound me up. They tried to make it look like some glorious, like they put all these big union jacks on the Warriors and the Welsh flags and he tried to look like some sort of like, look we're pulling out. And no , it looked , in my opinion, it felt like we were, we'd been done, if you know what I mean? Yeah . Um ,

Speaker 1: 1:32:04

They sold it as a handover, didn't they? Rather than a withdrawal. And it was, like I said , I , I think, you know, like I think if you'd asked any of the blogs who were on the ground, it's like, no , we don't want to go .

Speaker 2: 1:32:15

Yeah, a hundred, a hundred percent. It felt if and the fact that they'd been reason they'd been having chats to these people and struck a deal about, we didn't not, I know we were just like lowly troopers or whatever . We were out on the ground, just like we're just numbers to them. But in my opinion, I was like, it would've been nice to give a heads up or kept in the loop, but it was literally just sort of like, oh, we've, we've struck a deal by , we've struck this deal with them , we're letting a load of them outta prison and then we're letting 'em out , <inaudible> back . And I thought, yeah , it just felt like the proper done is over there. Um, and then obviously you find, like you say , you find out later all the little details of it and stuff and it was just, yeah, when , especially when you could see them literally stood there with weapons. I'm like, well , can't we shoot them ? And they , they were like making out that they were protecting our convoy on the way out. Like we needed protecting like we can leave ourself . It was sort of like, it just, yeah, it was just like I salted the wounds to be honest. It was , it , I was , I still got a very bit of taste about it, to be honest about it.

Speaker 1: 1:33:16

I mate I forgot that protect , like, protect him from who at the end .

Speaker 2: 1:33:20

Yeah. Like , oh , it was like they were doing us a favor, like, don't worry, we won't shoot at you. I was like , well don't worry, you won't brass you up either because it , it wound me up. 'cause it was like, yeah, who you protecting us from? What you , um, but yeah, they tried to spin it off like that. Oh , they're doing us a favor. Like , oh cheers. And there were still IEDs on the way out anyway, <laugh>, I was like, yeah, you just , um, I dunno how you feel about it, but yeah, a a long time

Speaker 1: 1:33:49

I , I'd string up whoever made that deal m e, I 'd string t hem up.

Speaker 2: 1:33:52

Yeah. For a long time I , I held that , uh, quite personally. 'cause obviously I see the aftermath after one of my best, my best mate was killed out there. Um, and uh, I see the effects, obviously it has on the, on the family, you know, it was like, and I know lads, lads, we all know the risks and stuff and um, but when you , I was , I used to socialize with him outside of work as well. 'cause he used to live in Batey . Um, so I used to, I saw the, the other side of it , you know , I'd see his little sisters, they were only like six and 12 at the time, six and 14 at the time. And I saw how much it like destroyed his family. And I was like, and these, I, how to get all political about it. But it's like, I think they're striking all these little deals behind our back and stuff. And then there's no real afterthought about it. It wound me up. I would've rather, I would've, I know it's a double-edged sword because if you stayed there, more lads would've potentially got killed. But me as someone who's actually there, like if you asked me personally now , I would've stayed.

Speaker 1: 1:34:52

Yeah . Yeah. I , I think it's more of , it's , it's more of the fact that that summer for a few months, you're asking people to go out every night. Id small arms , everything. And like, I don't think people realize as well that the , the like, 'cause obviously everyone knows about Afghan at that time, but the casualties, right ? It was actually more casualties, more deaths in Iraq at that period than there was in Afghan. But like you said , mate , it was, it was like a betrayal by the commanders and then a betrayal by the media because the media's like, oh yeah, no , don't worry about Iraq. It's all quiet. There's nothing going on there. And it's like, it's, it's like, like we don't about, so , you know, it's like if you need challenger tanks to go into a , into a city, it's because it's kicking off. And yeah . If you've got challenger tanks mate , <laugh> , well , which you're firing the gun . There's nothing . Me tanks are just sitting there, they're firing. Um, yeah , there's nothing

Speaker 2: 1:35:50

Peaceful about Inger

Speaker 1: 1:35:52

On that. Um, on that, you know, you mentioned the release of prisoners as well. Just explain to people about that, like what part of the deal that was.

Speaker 2: 1:36:00

I don't, I don't know obviously the ins and outs of it, but I know for a fact, obviously, like I said, mentioned before there was a prison outside Basra Palace. Uh , not Ba Palace, Basra Air Base , right on the edge on the pri fence . They'd made multiple attempts to break 'em out of there because I'd see them more of the fence and more of the walls try and get 'em out. But I , um, what I come to learn in after it was that a part of the deal, they released people that would actually cap , not me personally, of units and stuff that had actually captured on strike. Cops , people that had actually been found guilty of, like, I don't, like , I don't wanna say they use terrorism, but like , um, uh, what's the word for it? They've been found basically guilty bank to rights making IEDs and holding weapons and stuff like that , being involved in , um, that sort of activity. So they were bank to rights and they were literally let go. Like these people have literally killed people. So they , in my eyes, they're murderers and they just let 'em go ki it's almost like, kind of like a, like an Iraqi Good Friday agreement, you know, but we didn't get anything out of it there. You got it all. There is a slight go off, you go, you go do your thing. Um , and that is also another kick in the teeth . 'cause you like , literally these guys have done whatever, X, Y, and Z to certain pit lads and they literally just rode it out for a year or so and then they're out.

Speaker 1: 1:37:19

And once they left the final one out, they fired the biggest rocket attack on the base of the entire, it was like occupation

Speaker 2: 1:37:27

Or was that until 10 ? Was it? Yeah .

Speaker 1: 1:37:29

I don't , I don't, I don't think it happened on 10. I think , I think it happened on 11 .

Speaker 2: 1:37:33

Yeah. Um , it doesn't, doesn't that

Speaker 1: 1:37:35

Surprise me. Prison was out, they were just like, that's it . Have some rockets. <laugh> .

Speaker 2: 1:37:41

Yeah. It does not surprise me. 'cause I'm pretty sure after, after our sort tele , after tele , it didn't , the Americans go down there as well and they were saying it was pretty bad.

Speaker 1: 1:37:51

Yeah, the operation charge of the Knights . Uh ,

Speaker 2: 1:37:53

Yeah .

Speaker 1: 1:37:55

Yeah. So any, anything else from Ara mate that you, that you wanna speak about?

Speaker 2: 1:38:00

Just No , um, just that I , like, there was a , there was uh , one of our lads unfor , I , I do like to mention the lads as well because they do need to be remembered. And there was , there was one lad and so if I make Jay , he unfortunately passed another guy, dad's flowers. He was a Remi lad and , uh, a corporal , uh, corporal Edwards, he was killed by an ID and he was pretty sneaky how they'd done it as well. Um, they put an IDIC uh, initially it detonated , uh, he drove their past obviously the contact point. And then 'cause the comms, the equipment that we had was pretty as well. So he stood up at the top of the vehicle to check if the guardsmen in the back were all right . Uh, and then obviously they got him with a secondary device , uh, what we were talking about before the EF ps. And , uh, he stood up to check the la of the back were right secondary device went off and , and yeah , it , it killed him straight away . But , um, yeah, it was, it was a very strange tour because obviously me, myself obviously I got out of the army not long after that. Um, people always ask like, it's weird because everyone wants to know about Afghan and I , I get it 'cause it is interesting, like, but when I left as well, I was gutted . I was like, are they , 'cause my , my regiment deployed to Afghan after and I was like, I haven't , I felt like I hadn't tested myself. 'cause I'm hearing about what my mates are getting up to and I'm like, oh , I need to get back in to , 'cause I've not tested myself now 'cause they're doing this stuff in Afghan. But I feel like Iraq's kind of like a forgotten sort of a forgotten tour. And it wasn't as, it wasn't, it certainly by was no means a Cushty tour. It was just very different to obviously the Herricks , you know? Um, so that, that , yeah, I feel like obviously after the telex started to wind down, then obviously the news started. It was just all Afghan, Afghan, Afghan, which I understand because obviously the fatalities and stuff, but Iraq was kind of just sort of like, well , whatever, push that to the side, let's forget about that. Um, so that, that was a bit of like a , a sore one to take. 'cause you feel, you almost feel a bit like it's forgotten about, you know?

Speaker 1: 1:40:05

Mm-hmm . Yeah. And not even like 20 years later, like just instantly.

Speaker 2: 1:40:09

Yeah, yeah. Gone. It's sort of like, oh , did that even happen? But , um, I dunno how you felt about it, but that's how I personally felt. And it probably made it, it didn't make it any easier, the fact that I'd left the Army as well. So like , my, my transition outta the army was quite quick. That was sort of like , uh, six months , seven months ago I was on patrol through Basra and at all my boys. And then now I'm just literally, you see all these little videos on Instagram and stuff, you know, when they're holding the weightlifting thing and they're pulling it and then you're like, I've gone from this. And it was like a , like a 50 cow in rack or whatever. And then next minute you're on the end 25, you're sort of like quite a hard, it's quite a hard pill to swallow, you know? 'cause you feel like I was doing all that cool stuff then, and now I'm just doing nothing. But yeah, that , that made it a bit more difficult for me to be honest. What was your reason for leaving? So me and my best mate had signed off at the same time. 'cause obviously, like I said to you before, I'd met a , met a girl on leave, typical sort of thing. Same as him. And we were like, right, well signing off. So he signed off and they said, look, you don't have to go to Iraq if you don't want to because you've signed off now. I said, nah, I'm not gonna jack on the boys. And I , I , I wanted to go as well . And the same as him. It was his first tour . So , uh, we'd signed off, but we went anyway. And then unfortunately he was killed , uh, a month into the tour. And for me, 'cause he was such a type , Fred , like me and him were like, we were thick as we were , like wherever I was, he was, wherever he was, I was. Um , and then when , obviously when he was killed , um, when he died, we basically , he , he was a nail in the coffin for me. I was like , I'm definitely getting out. And then obviously I saw it through. So when I came back and then I obviously ended up getting outta the military myself. Um, do I have regrets? Mm . I probably, if I could live my time again, I probably would've stayed in for another couple of years just to get like a hert done. But then on the flip side of things, there's no point looking back in the past, you know? But that, that was the reason I'd signed off. 'cause I , I kind of wanted the normal life. You think, you know, you get the post leave blues, you're sitting on your bed and you're like, oh , this is. What am I doing here ? And then you see all your mates on the and then you, you ain't gonna have a misses 'cause your misses is like, as soon as you leave, she's doing the day and you whatever, I dunno , typical sort of thing. I was like, no , I want a normal life. I want a nine to five . I want go for a pub with my mates. I wanna play football on the weekends and I wanna see the miss . And then lo and behold, I leave the army split up with her and it was sort of like, right. Well that was pointless <laugh> . So what was your transition like, to be honest mate, yeah, I have to be, I have to be brutally honest 'cause I know a lot allowed to go for it. For me, I was a very angry, very angry person when I left. Uh, I was getting in quite a lot of trouble. Um, I didn't go down the typical route of what a lot , I hear a lot of lads hitting the , hitting the drink or hitting. But recreational drugs , uh, for me, I started going to the gym obviously as a way of self-medicating. I'd make myself basically that tired that I could go to sleep sort of thing. And it would chill me out. But then obviously, let's just say su certain supplements find their way into, into your , uh, into your system when you go to a certain type of bodybuilding gym. And it was like pouring petrol on a fire mate . It was, it was the worst thing I ever done. Um, I went, I , I went down little quick to be honest. And my dad, fortunately he was, he's still in the military. He, he recognized so was up with me. Um, so eventually I sort of swallowed my pride, went to a c doctor. They didn't really, they didn't really have a clue what what was going on. And then I ended up , um, speaking with combat stress. Um, I heard mixed reviews about them, but they've always, they've done, they've done , uh, they went out their way for me to be honest. Uh , they'd done me a solid. So my transition out was pretty tough because at the time, like I said to you before , um, got back to camp after tour and basically I just disappeared. No one, they weren't bothering me on orders. They weren't, I literally rock up on a Monday or I'd , I'd go to scoff in combats. So like people would see me about, and then they'd think, oh , you're just doing, you're doing a course, you're doing like a European driver's license thing or whatever the course they were running, you know? And I was literally just sat in my room playing Xbox and going Jim. Um, and I literally rinsed that for months , just getting paid and just hiding. And then they were like, right, you gotta go do your medical . You gotta do your medical and your D kit . And uh , I remember going to the med center , they literally just said to me, are you all right ? And I was like, yeah. They were like , did a , an eye test, hearing test and then literally went right , sweet, see you later. They didn't really ask anything. Um, but to be honest, I wouldn't have admitted it at the time because I didn't really, I didn't really know at the time. 'cause I was still kind of in the loop of being in the military de kitted. They literally like just dumped all my kit on the thing, pushed it over there in a bin and then Andrew Id card in and I drove outta the camp gates. I was like, what ? That's it. And I literally, that was it. And I was like driving on the A three back from Tidworth, like, yeah, I'm free. And then a month later I probably sat in a room crying into my pillow. Like, but yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't easy mate, but um, I kind of saw my way out of it through the gym. Like obviously like every other , a lot of lads still have, I'm still, I wouldn't say I , because I , my, my main goal obviously speaking to combat stress and stuff was I wanted it to be my old self again. I was like , I want to be the old, the old car . And then I've come to the realization now that I can't ever be the old car , but I can be like in a , an adaption of that and try and obviously we have our days and we have our good days. Um, it's just about more having about more good days and bad now, you know? And I've definitely seem to like, I feel like I've got a curb on it 'cause uh , it's sort of steadied out now because I know what does me, right? I go to the gym. If I don't go to the gym for a few days, I get wobbly. I , I get weird. Um, but for me it's just all about finding your own sort of your own sort of thing. But yeah, the thing about the military as well , when they , they gas you up, then they , they're like, oh , when you walk out, you, when you get outta the army, you walking to a job like you , you're an exy. Like you are not like your silly sort of thing. And I was thinking sweet, I like, I went in and applied for a job at Heathrow Airport and uh, it was just security. I got Chinned off in the first day . I was like, what the, I was like, I was in Iraq like a month or so, I got a few months ago and I can't even sniff, I can't even sniff bags, I can't even look through, I can't even look through bags. I thought that that was just like kicking me was

Speaker 3: 1:46:46

Probably why you didn't get the job made for start

Speaker 2: 1:46:49

<laugh> . But um, yeah , that , that was almost another kick in the kick in the NAD site . 'cause it was , it was like another feeling of like, oh my God, what have I done? And then I , uh, I ended up working for the prison service, which was, it'd done me a favor at the time. Initially it was like one uniform to another, but, and it was giving me the sort of rush because obviously you are working in an environment which is volatile, so you'd be rolling around with lads or whatever. But after a while it was, if anything, it was counterproductive to me for getting further down the line of my own sort of like improvement because I'm constantly surrounded by aggression. I was, at the time I was juiced up and uh, I was obviously I wasn't quite worldwide . I don't , I wasn't quite myself, you know. And , um, it was annoying really. 'cause I feel like the prison service men , they uh , they were quite , um, they used me because when I deemed it necessary to use force, when I felt threatened, I'd be getting like investigated and I even got arrested once, nothing come of it. But when they wanted someone who was smashing their cell up or taken outta their cell, they'd be like, oh , they'd ring, they'd be like , away change . And then they'd be like, there's me getting a right shield on. And they'd be like, go and smash him. Basically. I was like, oh , so when you want me to smash him, it's all right . But when I didn't necessary, they tried to string me up. So I, I realized after a couple of years I need to get out there. And then I got out there and I finally got on. Um , I'm an like working in an engineering role now on the railway where it's perfect for me 'cause I'm literally working with other squads . Like I got a lad from my regiment who I knew and my regiment who works with me. And um, I've managed to wangle myself into a good position through the gift of the gap really. So I , I've seen to have landed on my feet now, to be honest.

Speaker 1: 1:48:45

So when you come out and you , what , when you were angry mate, where was that? What was the anger about?

Speaker 2: 1:48:51

I'd never dealt , in all honesty, I don't really know, but I feel like I've never dealt with like a loss of someone close before. And Jay was like, he was my, he was like my right hand man. Uh , and seeing him, you obviously in that state as well, you're sort of like, these things have an impact on your mind. And at the time when people, 'cause when I spoke to uh , a guy at Combat Stress , I was saying to him, I've seen, like I said before in inte seven, all those dead guys and you see all that sort of stuff . And at the time, and if you ask me now like do you think it affected you? I genuinely think no, but you don't actually know. Like it desensitizes you like that guy said on your previous podcast, I, I can fully relate to what you said. Yeah , I , I come home and for months and months and months I would constantly watch combat footage. I'll be watching lads in Iraq, I'll be watching lads in Africa . Anything to do with like contact or being amongst it, I was, I was fixated with it and he, he hit the nail on the head. I was trying to look for something to hurt me. Like nothing would make me upset. Like I wouldn't, I didn't feel anything 'cause the people were saying to me like , oh you're very cold. Like you don't really have any, you almost seem emotionless that you're not bothered. And I was like, oh , you obviously can't relate to me because you are like subie and you've never really gone for it. But I totally, when I heard that, I was like, it really like clicked. I was like, oh my god, I did that. But I was trying to like shock myself and the same as him. Uh, I basically just don't ever watch anything like that anymore. And it seems to have like, I've made a conscious effort to not, to not like do that. Um, but yeah, yeah, it wasn't , um, I was very , the anger, I dunno , they just obviously is , is my symptoms . 'cause some people say they have flashbacks and stuff. The only thing I really got was I just felt like rage and uh, I had like one other little trigger and like , no , you saw burning tires, like rubber that immediately takes me back to Iraq. Like, you know, the um , the big rubbish tip outside the shear flats, the burning tires in't it . Um, I think it was just about

Speaker 1: 1:51:01

<inaudible> .

Speaker 2: 1:51:02

Sorry mate .

Speaker 1: 1:51:03

Probably took 10 years off. I like that place then .

Speaker 2: 1:51:06

Yeah, probably. Yeah. Um, so yeah, it was, it was , it wasn't easy by any means, but I feel like I've, I've got there in the end.

Speaker 1: 1:51:16

Yeah , like it's, it's , it's tough one in it . 'cause it's like, it's probably totally natural to come off like if you've been essentially fighting for six months or in , you know, not, I don't wanna say fear for your life, but you know what I mean. Like, you know, you might be getting killed for six months and then, you know, there's, there's gonna be that tail off to, to being able to feel kind of normal at some point. But like you said, with the juice or with drinking, I think we , we all kind of go and throw petrol on a fire of something that's gonna naturally be burning. And we go and you know, we go and we almost make it worse with our own decisions really, don't we in a lot of ways. But like you got , you got with the gym routine and that now what would it be like if someone took the gym routine and everything away from you now what do you reckon you, what do you reckon you'd be like,

Speaker 2: 1:52:07

Well it , it happened didn't it during covid and it was noticeable, mate , it was noticeable. I , I hand on heart. It sounds weird. Like two give it, if I don't go for two or th two days the right maybe , but three or four, anything like that, I start, I feel myself. I know straight away like I'm going downhill . So during Covid, I've, I really, I struggl struggled man , because they closed all the gyms. I was literally frantically trying to buy any sort of gym kit on eBay. I was scrounging anything and I was literally in the , my garden like a bomb. So because I had dumbbells everywhere, I like, I I , uh, it's , it's almost a dependent , it's almost a drug mate . It's a dependency. Like if I stop training, I'm banging tr I , I know I'm in trouble. 'cause uh, even like I had, I've had multiple operations this year 'cause I had a couple of benign tumors in my legs and uh, but I , I was still wheeling my , I was still going to the gym on crutches, like sat, people look at me like a weird, I had these mood boots on, but I was just still there doing B pills or, or doing something. 'cause I , for me it's like, it is self-medication and there's definitely worse things to self-medicate you on self-medicate yourself on. Um , I've just accepted now that that's part of my life. And um, that , and to be honest with you , it's not, it's not a bad, it's not a bad thing to be , uh, to have to , to have to do. Um, but you know , other lads, like you say , tend to drink and drugs and that can, that can be a lot more detrimental, you know? But yeah , it is a dependency of some sort. I do need it. Um, but yeah, it is , it's funny because like I said before, a lot of the lads are like you in the army, you couldn't stand, you couldn't stand pt. I was like, yeah, because you have to go out, run , couldn't stand all that running . I was like, I'm doing what I want now and at least you get to look all right for it. You're like, you see fat guys who could run, they could run well, but like when you go to the gym, it was sort of the first thing I'd sort of invested some effort and time into and I started to notice a , like a correlation, you know, you're seeing the results. So that became addictive as well. Um, but yeah, that's what that for me mate. Um , I dunno what other people do, but I've never had an issue with like drink myself or, or like recreational drugs or anything.

Speaker 1: 1:54:22

Do you , do you um, do , do you have , do you like drink at all or you like totally tea ? Tea

Speaker 2: 1:54:28

All ? No , so socially I do , um, I'll go football and that , uh, and I'll have a few pints with my mates or the odd occasion you might get a bit carried away. But nothing like, I don't, I've never had to like, I've never hit the bottle, you know. Um, I think I got a lot of outta my system in the army obviously. 'cause obviously you get to regiment when you're 17 and then you're just smashing drinks for years. And I think I've done enough drinking in my time, so now I don't need chase that anymore. I I just have a social drink now. I enjoy , I enjoy myself is , it's never been an issue for me. Thank God.

Speaker 1: 1:55:02

When when did you start to decide to do like the competition? Um, what like , uh, would you call it competition, bodybuilding? What

Speaker 2: 1:55:08

Would you call it ? Yeah, so I do , uh, there's different categories obviously in bodybuilding I do men's physique so you don't have to wear the little pants, you wear sort of board shorts, but you still gotta be in pretty good nick. Um, and obviously once I've been in the gym for quite some time and that I started knowing progress and then you start chatting to other lads in the gym, you were in decent shape and you're like sort of trying to emulate them. Then you notice that they're doing competitions. And then , uh, I saw the sort of levels of discipline that were required to do it and it just, it literally just married up together. I was like, what I miss from the military and then sort of like a civilian life activity I could do. And it literal just married up and I was like the regimen , it is quite miserable and quite antisocial at times. 'cause obviously the diet is ridiculous. Uh, the amount of cardio you gotta do is ridiculous. But it keeps me like on the straight and narrow. 'cause like, you gotta remain disciplined literally. And it gives me a focus as well. I've got something to focus on. If I haven't got anything to aim at, I feel kind of lost. So when I have a show, like I've got a show in four weeks time , um, I prep for a show is normally like three or four months. So four months of the year I am like ridiculously disciplined . I weigh my food to the gram. It's like, it gives me something to stay very focused on and it , it helps me. But , um, the misses wants me to knock it on the edge . 'cause she obviously, she used , she compete , she used to compete as well. But , um, I think, I think , uh, she trying to think more along the lines of that maybe still having a family. So it's, it's a very selfish sport. So I need to find the channel to , to channel. I'll still train but I won't be doing it to this level like this sort of dieting, this extreme. But um, so yeah, I think this is probably the last year I will be competing. So I've be doing it for about five years now.

Speaker 1: 1:57:01

Well, best of luck in it mate. Um , you do following it next you can don't have to worry. Go c crazy . Just

Speaker 2: 1:57:07

Get fat and uh , just the steady weight isn't ,

Speaker 1: 1:57:10

It's big , big old, strong man . Belly mate. Um, is there anything else we haven't covered that you think we should?

Speaker 2: 1:57:17

Um, no , I think, I think you covered it mate.

Speaker 1: 1:57:21

Yeah . Well let's just finish it . Finishes this meant there mate, with everything you've been through , um, all your experiences during the army and after the army, what would you do it all again?

Speaker 2: 1:57:32

A hundred percent without hesitation.