War Story 016: Gaz Kennedy; REME LAD attached to Coldstream Guards

Gaz Kennedy served in Afghanistan with a Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers Light Aid Detachment attached to the Coldstream Guards.

Gaz has written about his life and service, and all royalties from his book go towards supporting Combat Stress. You can order the book here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silent-War-Battles-Beginnings-Book-ebook/dp/B0DYRR7N1H

Please give Gaz a follow on instagram @gaz_kennedy_

If you would be interested in talking about your experiences of war please contact us through our instagram page @veteranstateofmind, or email info@vsompodcast.com

If you enjoyed today's episode, or found value in it, please share the link with your friends.

Note on audio quality: thanks for bearing with us as we go through some growing pains recording from a home studio. This is to enable us to provide more regular, and longer episodes. The podcast host is a boomer and is taking some time to figure it all out, but as God is our witness, we will prevail.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Hi guys, welcome to the War Story Podcast with me, Geraint Jones. I've just a few minutes ago finished recording today's episode with my friend Gaz Kennedy. We met at the physical training instructor course back in, I guess it would be in 2010. And You know, I had no idea at the time what Gaz had been through. I had no idea what he would go through. And I found this to be an incredibly kind of moving episode. One, you know, know him, but not incredibly well. You know, we obviously have kept in touch, but, you know, I learned a lot today. And, you know, one of those is that the dude has been through a lot and he's overcome a lot. And I think you're going to really kind of take away a lot from today's episode um i just want to get straight into it guys all i ask all i ask as usual is if you take something away from today's episode and i just don't see how you couldn't to be quite honest then please share it please give gaz a follow on social media um please support him in what he's doing raising money for combat stress um As is very clear in this episode, you probably won't get no help from the army. People you know... Sorry, that's my alarm going off. People you know won't get no help from the army. It's on us to do it, and there's a lot of fantastic people and charities doing the work as well. So if you can support somebody like Gaz who's given all the royalties on his book away to combat stress, then please do. And share his story. It will help someone, I guarantee it. Gaz, welcome to the podcast, mate. Good to see you. You're looking very well, mate. Looking very healthy. Great to see you.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Mate, thank you very much. Absolute pleasure. Thank you for inviting me on. Yeah, looking forward to it, mate. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

So, we're going to have a talk about your war stories today, mate. Not going to talk about our PTI car, the way we met. I mean... It's a good thing we don't do video on this podcast, mate. We'd probably break the internet, honestly, with the amount of essence that is on camera right now. So let's get into it, mate. Let's start at the very beginning. Where were you from, and at what point in your life did you start to feel yourself drawn towards serving in the Army?

SPEAKER_00 2:29

So I'm originally from a place called Bowery Inferno. I'd like to say Relay District, but... It's definitely, you've got to go through the Lake District to get there. So, yeah, that's where I'm from. Shipbuilding town, not really much there, to be honest with you. I grew up there and then I left there to join the army when I was 16, really. There's not really too much to do around there, apart from going to the shipyard. I wasn't the most academic person, to be honest with you. Yeah, and just went down the army route, Army Foundation College at 16 years old.

SPEAKER_03 3:13

Did you have many mates from school doing the same thing or were you kind of one of the only ones who chose that direction?

SPEAKER_00 3:20

No, I had a couple of people who, you know, go to the careers office with, yeah, I want to join up and stuff like that. But I was beyond the... I was the only one out of all my friendship group that joined. Nobody in my family had ever been in the military before. So yeah, it's just one of them really.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

So I kind of asked this question to everyone that joined the army at 16 because You know, Britain's one of the only NATO countries, I think, that allows you to join. I think it's 15 three quarters, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. What's your kind of opinion on the age for joining the army? What do you kind of see as the pros and the cons? I

SPEAKER_00 4:04

think the pros are... Shall we start with the cons? Let's get the cons out of the way first and then end on the pros.

UNKNOWN 4:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

I think the cons are you join at 16. It was kind of sold to me. You're going to be joining the army, stuff like that, et cetera. But at 16 years old until I was too young to go to adult basic training or whatever, straight from school. So I'm stuck there. I wasn't the most academic person, like I said. And at the Army Foundation College, it was, what, 52 weeks long. And it's basically school. Like, I struggled. I struggled massively. My first 12 weeks, something like that. I didn't want to be there. It was classroom stuff. You're doing all your key skills, your English, your maths. Granted, you're doing all the military stuff alongside of it as well. But for me, I joined the army not to go not to have to go to college or go down the route of getting an apprenticeship and studying and stuff like that, really. So for me, that was a negative. I think a positive is it does make you grow. See, this is a two sided coin because people in the military in growing up, you put them together just like teenagers again, you cause all sorts of trouble, but it gives you that foundation to know how to grow up as well. Granted, we choose not to and become knobs at times as such. But yeah, I don't know. I think it's a good I say now, if my son asked me or said to me, I'm going to join the military, would I tell him not to? I don't think I would. Would I encourage it? I wouldn't encourage it. I wouldn't be like, yeah, go and join the army. It's definitely good for you, do this. But I wouldn't discourage him either. So yeah, I'd support him if he wanted to join.

SPEAKER_03 6:15

What was it that made you go towards the infantry and the guards in particular?

SPEAKER_00 6:20

So originally, so I never... I wasn't Guards Cat Badge. This is a thing. I wasn't Guards Cat Badge. So when I originally joined, I joined up KORBR, Kings Unrolled Border. It was at that time when they were amalgamated. So all the local infantry regiments were then becoming the Lanks. I think it was like Devon and Dorsets and all them smaller regiments, like all amalgamated into the bigger ones as such. So I originally joined KORBR. wanted to go infantry. That was my... I joined the army to join the army as such. And then when they amalgamated, it was like, there's going to be all of these battalions going into one big battalion. You're never going to get promoted. We're only going to have the same amount of promotion spaces, but double, triple the amount of people, et cetera. And got convinced to go down the Rimi route, which... I don't know why. I don't know why. You see, when you're young, you just, you just, well, to be fair, when I went to the careers office and signed up KORPR, I'd done it because I was told to. You know, the guy who was, if I was back in the day before, he was, is it Capita? And you actually had like, you know, you had blokes who were in the army coming to the end of their 22 years at the career center, like joining, joining people up. He was KORBR. So that's why I joined KORBR because he told me to, he told me it was the best, it was the best regiment to join. It was basic, et cetera. And then when everybody amalgamated, I got caught up in that, in that cycle again of, yeah, go, go Rimi. You'll be able to get a trade. It will be good for you. It'll, it'll, it'll do this. And mate, like I said, I wasn't the most academic person. So it was, it was the worst choice that I could ever made. Like without a doubt, I am the self-proclaimed worst mechanic the army has ever seen without a doubt. So yeah, I transferred, went to Rimi, went to my first unit in Rimi, realized this, yeah, this wasn't for me at all. I need to get, I need to get attached to, well, I need to transfer initially. They wouldn't let me transfer because the army has spent too much money on me, you know, putting me through my, my V.M. course or whatever it was. So the next best thing for me was to, to get attached to an infantry battalion. I got attached to an infantry battalion, Irish guards originally. They then done the change over with the Colshane guards. And then, yeah, I then got, when, when we deployed a, got attached to the rifle company, one company, Coltian Guards. So I spent doing my training and my deployment with them.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

So how old were you then when you finally got to a battalion?

SPEAKER_00 9:27

So I'd done a year's basic training. Then my phase two training, and then the transition, and then going down to Borden, where the Rimi Phase 2 is, was another year. Then Leckensfield to do the driving course, so there's another few months. So I reckon I was probably, by the time I'd got to a unit, I was 19 years old. So three and a bit years, because, well, yeah, the... The school boy basic training, then this transferring, then the secondary basic training, which was another year. Yeah, I kind of wasted my first three and a bit years.

SPEAKER_03 10:14

So what's the experience like being an attached arm to an infantry battalion in the UK?

SPEAKER_00 10:27

For me, I didn't enjoy it. For me, I didn't enjoy it. I despised being a Remy cat badge. Didn't want to be Remy cat badge. The people who I was... Being at an infantry battalion and a Remy cat badge, there's not that many Remy there. I think there must have only been six or seven. And a lot of them are older. A lot of them are not very fizz-oriented as such. It's just typical... I don't know. It's just... the typical Remy, RLC, what's the word that I'm trying to think of? Fat people. Yes, me. I was trying to be a little bit more. No, obviously it's not all wasters, but it's just that stigma that's attached to it, isn't it? Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 11:23

Met some very fit Remy people for the record.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Yeah, yeah, agreed, agreed. so then obviously being, being an infantry unit as a Remi, then being seen as a Remf as well. Do you know what I mean? It was, I didn't really fit in there. Didn't really know any of the lads. So even when we were going to like mess meetings, stuff like that, et cetera, I was just, I was just attached to arms. I was just a Remf. It wasn't actually until I deployed with the lads, but, um, Because when I deployed, like I said, I was attached to a rifle company. I wasn't doing a real job. I didn't have a toolbox. I wasn't spannering. I was basically just one of the lads, really. Obviously, being the attached arms, I was like, I got all the shit jobs as well. Do you know what I mean? So it was good, though. I enjoyed it because that's what I joined up to do. That's what I joined up to do.

SPEAKER_03 12:21

Before we get into the actual deployment, was it a light role battalion that you were at? So you didn't have warriors or armoured vehicles? You were just maintaining land rovers, trucks, that kind of thing?

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Yes, mate. Yeah, just land

SPEAKER_03 12:40

rovers. Sorry, we interrupt this podcast for me to put the cat back outside after you come in. How many dollars a show? All right, back in. Sorry about that, everyone. So, yes, mate, you're saying about the work you were doing.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

Yeah, everything was light ball. Everything was Land Rovers. Mate, I was horrendous. I was a horrendous mechanic. I spent my time out there. out of the workshop as much as it could, you know, down the gym, getting onto a PCI course, trying to remember what gone work in the gym, stuff like that, et cetera. But yeah, it was a light roll unit. When we deployed, everything was on foot. I think we had...

SPEAKER_03 13:41

Well, hang on, mate, before we get to the talk, I want to talk, just talk for your pre-deployment then, because did you do... even though I'm assuming you would have been with the battalion. Yeah. Were you doing separate serials and stuff in that training? Like as a non-infantry bloke, were you doing different kind of, were you getting different serials during the pre-deployment training as Rimi?

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Yes. Yeah, I was. But the reason being is because like a lot of attached arms done the same, done the same training, same serial stuff like that, et cetera. But I was never supposed to deploy. on Herrick 11 because I've not long got back from Telic 11. So I came back from I'd done Telic 11 in 2007, 2008 as a Remi board within an LLC unit, came back from there and I was like, this 100% isn't for me. So that's when I then took a posting with with Occultian Guards. And then they were obviously deploying on Herrick 11, which was 2009, 2010. So I'd only been back a year. So when they were doing all the pre-deployment training, et cetera, I was never due to deploy. And then I got a phone call. We're coming back. We're coming back off an exercise, actually. And I got a phone call saying that Do I want to deploy? I was like, yeah, yeah, 100%, definitely. Are you going to be going out with one company? I said, yeah, yeah, that's fine. When do I go? And they're like, three days. So it was buzzing, yeah. I had to ring my wife at the time and say, yeah, I'm deploying. She was like, when? Three days. She was like, we haven't given you much notice. It didn't go down well when I got told that. I got given the choice as well. So I volunteered.

SPEAKER_03 15:42

Oh, yeah. So when you got to the company then,

SPEAKER_01 15:47

what

SPEAKER_03 15:48

was your, you know, these lads just gone through, like I'm assuming by then they'd probably already done a lot of the old sweats, I'm assuming. They'd probably done an Afghan before that, had they?

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Yeah. I'm not sure, to be honest with you.

UNKNOWN 16:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

Like I said, I didn't really know anybody from one company until I got to the PB. So when I was back in the UK, yeah, mate, honestly, it's mad. It was mad. I didn't really know anyone because I don't know. I was a reamy cat badge. I was in the workshop or I was down at the gym. I only knew probably a handful of the lads within the company. when I got to the PB.

SPEAKER_03 16:39

Just to explain, if people don't know what PB is, Gaz is basically saying he didn't know anyone until he was on essentially the front line.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

Yeah, basically, mate, yeah. 100%.

SPEAKER_03 16:50

Mate, that's a weird experience, mate. I don't think, you know, I mean, obviously new blokes will get that when you get lads, but even then sometimes they've been with the battalion already, you know, before they go out.

UNKNOWN 17:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:03

Yeah, so that is a weird one. So where was it that you were sent?

SPEAKER_00 17:07

So we were in a place, Babaji, so PB4. Navi Savage, I think it's called. So yeah, everything there was, it was remote. The flat was literally right outside, right outside, you know, the PB. So the flat obviously being the front line of enemy troops. Yeah. You know, it was literally right outside the compound. So when I got there, everything had to fly in. There was no road there. So everything had to come in by Chinook or off the back of the Herk. So I dropped out the back with a parachute and we'd all get our bergens out. And I vision on in the evening to go out and try and pick up all our water, our rations, our ammo, which was just dropped from the sky. It was a bit surreal. That's what I wanted to do. Do you know what I mean? I didn't want to be a Remi cap badge. I wanted to be there. I wanted to be a soldier or whatever. That's what I joined the army for and stuff. turning up at the patrol base, not knowing anyone. They're like, yeah, this is where you're sleeping tonight. And it was basically a cardboard box on the floor with a small mozzie net. Get your DOS bag out. And that's where you are, really. It was a compound. It was a big compound from one of the locals, which they took over. So, hey, it was a bit surreal.

SPEAKER_03 18:51

So let's rewind a little bit, because Babbagee, that's where the Welsh guards were that summer. And obviously they had a lot of fighting on their hands. Because you went out so late, were you aware of the intensity of the area that you were going to go into? Or did that come as a bit of a surprise as well?

SPEAKER_00 19:07

No, I knew what it was going to be like. Well, to be honest with you, the company lost a couple of lads in Bastion before they even made it out to the patrol base. So when they were doing the two-week harder, beforehand they were clearing the range out the back of bastia which was used every single day like and um yeah on the range it was it was one of them yeah just everyone was just so blasé about it you know what i mean and you know you know i didn't think that the taliban were gonna come back close to um to Bastion especially on the ranges which he used every single day form a straight line yeah walk up look for anything suspicious etc and yeah one of the lads ended up standing on an IED obviously he died a few other lads from the company you know were injured had to get Kazivac back obviously I wasn't with them at this point but being an attached arm I'd obviously heard about the situation and stuff so yeah Yeah, I kind of knew that the lads were already sure when they got there, when I got there as such. And to be fair, when they got there as well, so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:29

Yeah, and just to give people some context on that, if they haven't been to Bastion, if you imagine a massive camp, the rangers that you use to test fire weapons, do a few little last-minute drills and skills, were not within the perimeter of Bastion. You'd leave the camp, go outside into the desert. And there was these rangers there. And like, as I was saying, they were used, the same rangers used all the time. And then the locals would actually be coming in, picking up brass and everything. So it's not even like, it's not even like if you saw someone there in local dress, it would be unusual because they were there every day collecting the empty shells and stuff, which at the time we think, oh, this is great. Don't have to pick up the shell casings. But because I remember some of the lads saying at the time, like, this is mental. coming here every like what's one of the things you're always taught in your pre-deployment training don't set patterns

SPEAKER_01 21:17

yeah and then

SPEAKER_03 21:17

you leave the camp every day and go to the same place i think i think um as with a lot

SPEAKER_00 21:24

of things it was inevitable mate wasn't it it was inevitable but and i think people got very complacent like we ain't gonna This is Bastion. It's massive. There's big, huge sangas everywhere. You've got the British there, the Americans there, all the other countries there. So, I mean, there's a massive security presence as well. People just got complacent. Nah, they ain't going to come. Well, yeah, it happened.

SPEAKER_03 21:50

Yeah, and as it gets old, complacency kills. Exactly. And I just find it mental that... That was just allowed to continue. But like you said, mate, you know, it was inevitable. I mean, I think by that period, no, if you were in an infantry company or any company that was out on the ground, you know, whatever arm, at that point, I think you went into Afghanistan expecting that not everyone was going to come home, right? Yeah. But to lose blokes before you'd actually, I mean, technically you had left, you know, the company had left the wire to go to the Rangers, but you're not expecting anything until you're out on the ground properly, right?

UNKNOWN 22:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:28

So what kind of effect did that have on the morale of the company when you were there? Was it noticeable?

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Well, obviously, I wasn't with them at this point.

SPEAKER_03 22:37

Yeah. When you arrived, though.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

Yeah. When I arrived, the company's art major, top blog, Stevie Taylor, his name was. He met me off a Chinook like. Obviously, there's other posts coming in, rations being dropped off, stuff like that as well. And he said to me, come have a chat with me in 10 minutes or whatever, you know, just find your feet. So I went and I had a chat with him and I remember him saying, his first words were to me like, don't fuck up. Like, do not fuck up. It's like, shit's already hit my fan here. We've already lost blokes in Bastion. A couple of other big... You got a big lads presence within the company as well, who had been injured. One of the lads had got shot in the arm, broke his arm, had to get Kazzy back. I think a couple of other situations like that. So within ten minutes of me getting there, he was like, yeah, this is a situation and you ain't going to fuck up. But he said it stern. Like, you know, when somebody says something to you and you're like, fucking hell, like, I've literally been here for fucking 10 minutes and he's already in my face, you know, like, you ain't going to fuck up or don't mess about. So, yeah, it was a bit of a shock, really. Like I said, I didn't know anyone when I went there. I was like, fuck, you know, what have I got myself into here? But, yeah, and then it was just a case of... I got attached to company TAC to begin with. So with Company Sergeant Major, the OC, the lads from Signal Troop and stuff. And I was just basically just an extra board within there. I was basically just doing a rifleman guardsman job. When I was there, then I got attached to Free Platoon as well. When they started, they took some casualties as well. A couple of lads died. So I then got attached to them for the tour. And then I just split my time then really between Free Platoon and Company TAC, you know, throughout. But yeah, it was one of them, mate. As being in attached arms, it was where can we fit guys? Do you know what I mean? Or what? You know, what platoon needs extra bods to go out as you're going out with three platoon today, you know. Done a couple of patrols with the Reaper lads, with the wrecking snipers. But they're like a cult there, man. Do you know what I mean? To be with them. So again, I was just an extra bod just thrown in. But to be fair, they're all good lads, mate. They're all good lads. By the time I'd got there, settled in, I was doing the same job as, you know, the guardsman amongst where I wasn't given any, really any responsibility, you know, like section two IC or anything like that at all. I was basically just, just an extra board, just somebody on the ground. So everybody was doing the same job. So it was, it was a good, it was a good tour in that respect. Like the lads there were class, a hundred percent. Best posting that I've had in the army. I've had some book sheet postings. It's the most difficult because, but he was the best.

SPEAKER_03 26:17

So you mentioned that this patrol base, really basic kind of patrol base, is right on the forward line of enemy troops. Yeah. Sorry, I'm going to look at the cat sternly through the window right now. I hope you had a chance. So when you were there, were you getting kind of regular? Would they come and harass the compound? Would you be taking fire in the compound? Or was it a case of a mouse game? Hey, there was...

SPEAKER_00 26:44

Yeah, there was no idea. There was IDF, but it was very rare. Do you know what I mean? There was no mortars or anything like that. It was more RPGs coming over. But where our compound was, there was a place called Padacca. I think it was maybe 400 metres, 500 metres across open ground to get there. And it was basically known as... It was built in like a horseshoe. So all the compounds were built in like a horseshoe. It was just IEDs everywhere. Again, lads stood on IEDs, you know, maybe 50 metres outside of our compound. When we got the EOD team in, there was a murder hole, maybe a couple of hundred metres from the Sanger. Just explain what that is, mate. So murder hole... Yeah, so there was an alleyway, maybe a couple of hundred meters from the Sanger. And within the alleyway, there was obviously walls either side. Within that wall, there was a hole cut out where obviously the Taliban would fire from, have direct line of sight onto the patrol base, lads leaving the patrol base, et cetera. So when we got the EOD team to come in, basically blow that wall down. So we had more line of sight, really. The amount of IEDs which they found down there was ridiculous. You know, 50, 60 IEDs all within, you know, under 200 metres of the patrol base. One of the lads stood on an IED stand again, maybe 100 metres outside the patrol base. Fortunate, like, I had no injuries. Stunned IED, not a single injury. What had happened was, it was, we think it was an old IED, which had been compressed down and down and down into the ground. And over time, obviously, pressure had just built on it, like, because we'd walked over it. Like, so many people had walked over it every day, do you know what I mean? And eventually, just one day, just... It's just enough just to set it off. Again, but then there was lads within, again, close proximity, which lost legs, lost limbs. Yeah, it was mad. It was mad. I read a newspaper article on it when we got back. It was like 120 lads from the company which deployed out there. And I think there was 70 which deployed. which came back you know there was five deaths the rest casualties so when you add up when you add up them them statistics it's almost like a one in two it's like a one in two chance almost i mean um so i mean some yeah it's mad mad

SPEAKER_03 29:43

yeah it's a very high number mate um and i was what was the reason that they were able to get so close was it um Was it like the situation of the patrol base? You couldn't get good eyes on the surrounding area?

SPEAKER_00 29:56

No, it was more... So when we ripped in on Herrick 11, it was Pampers Claw. to Herrick 10, wasn't it? So Herrick 10 was Panther's Claw, Herrick 11 was Moshterak. So when they'd done Panther's Claw and they started pushing further out, that's one of the compounds which they took, but it was within a massive Taliban stronghold. So they just basically took over this compound just to get boots on the ground and start taking the areas around there. But there was no infrastructure there or anything like that. The patrol base was built there and then... So we kind of took over a patrol base, which was already planted within a Taliban stronghold. A lot of the patrols and operations that we'd done out there, there was no ISAF forces. I'd been in that area before anyway. So it was kind of just going into Redback Garden, really.

SPEAKER_03 31:03

So you were pretty much kind of surrounded on all sides in Taliban territory?

SPEAKER_00 31:08

Basically, yeah. Basically. We were the most forward patrol base. We were PB4, and that was PB3, PB2, PB1, obviously. And obviously, as it went further back, where PB4 was, we didn't have any other support in front of us or anything like that. So if we wanted to make up ground, like when we took over new checkpoints, it was... It was one company, Cushing Guards, who had gone out, wrecked the area, found the compounds, took over the compounds, and then obviously made that a checkpoint. There was no ISAF infrastructure in place there.

SPEAKER_03 31:55

Give us one sec, mate. Sorry. All right, mate. That's the cat situation taken care of. Not a... Final cat solution. So, unfortunately, maybe we're going to have to talk about the reality of tours, the horrible reality that is obviously losing people and suffering casualties. Now, we've had a chat about this off-air, and you want to respect people's privacy and not go into details and stuff, which I obviously totally respect. But what I'd like to know is the effect that it had on you, this regular... occurrence of people going out, people getting hit, people going out, people getting hit and losing their lives, losing limbs. What kind of toll did that take on you when you were on the ground?

SPEAKER_00 32:48

This can be split up into two different ways. So what kind of toll did it have on me personally and what kind of a toll did it have on the effect and the mentality of the group, of the company, of the lads and stuff like that altogether? Me personally, it was a very weird situation. As I mentioned, you know, I didn't really know many of these lads, you know, when I got there. So when you're seeing and casivacking people back who you don't know, do you know what I mean? And lads who haven't made it and, you know, the company commanders called us all in the patrol base and, you know, in the evening saying, hey, it's been Kazivac back and unfortunately he hasn't made it, you know. I think anybody being told that in that situation and being there, it's obviously going to have like, it's a strange situation in the respect that it affects you, but you can't let it affect you. Then I had the the issue of you've got other lads consoling each other and then me feeling like, can I console them? Is that even the right word? I'm not even sure. Is it my place to console them? I may have only known this person for the first F that we had was probably only four weeks. after me arriving to that PB, the lads who never made it, they didn't really know him. Felt like you knew him because obviously when you're out there, you just speak to people. You don't have anybody else to speak to. Do you know what I mean? So it was a bit of a weird situation. When he died, It was only a few days before we'd recorded a video. It's still on YouTube now. I was showing the wife it last week of them doing a... It was like a funny YouTube video. So we were down in the mortar pit and they'd made mock-up drums and microphones and stuff like that for mortar tubes and stuff. And we're just miming it and we were recording it. So you say that you don't really know them, but you've gone through a lot of things. You lived with them for four weeks. You've been out on patrols with them for four weeks. So, yeah, it was a weird situation for me in that respect of what do I really say? What is my place to console anybody here? I've only known the person for whatever. I think... When one of the other lads died in February, obviously, I'd been there for, I'd been with the company there for like four months at this point. That took a massive, that was a massive impact on me. Like I said, when I got there, I didn't really know anyone. The guy who passed away was one of the lads who, you know, I'd come in. He was the 2IC of the platoon. And I took me under his wing. I'd sit there in the evenings with him on his bed. We'd have a laptop. We'd read letters together that I'd got from home. He'd show me videos of his kid and stuff. His wife would send out her perfume in the small little perfume things. And he was like, he gave me, he was like, honestly, take this back to your bed. Just spray it on your bed. And when you go to bed of an evening, like it just takes you away from the situation. Do you know what I mean? He was one of them. He was a good lad. Really took me under my wing. And I got to know a lot more people through him going out of his way for me as well. So when he passed away, it was, yeah, that hit. I think that hit a lot of people actually, to be fair, because we just had months and months of operating on the car, not being able to do much, just getting smashed, et cetera. And it finally took its toll. By that point, he was the third person to uh to have been killed numerous more casualties um it was like it i remember we got we got a tv with a big massive with a big massive satellite and uh watching his repatriation on on that was in the tent everyone was in there and the way it was just deathly silenced mate it was it was just deathly silenced like and you're seeing lads crying like you don't you don't see that you know what i mean it's like i don't know i think that was a that was a turning point for a lot of people that

SPEAKER_03 38:04

yeah um so so i don't even know what i'm going for i mean i mean that's fucking tragic there's no other no other words from it um it's you is it but like you said man like

SPEAKER_00 38:21

You expect it. Do you know what I mean? You deploy it. You deploy and you get told like what you see on the news all the time. And obviously you get told some people ain't going to make it back. But you don't think about that at the time. Do you know what I mean? And you don't. And to be honest, when you're there and it happens, you think about it because you're only human at the end of the day. But then you've then got to switch off. Because the next morning you're on patrol or you're on QRF or you're on whatever. So it was like we watched the repatriation. Lads were just deathly quiet. People crying, went back to their beds, woke up the next morning. It's like it hasn't happened, but it has. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it's strange.

SPEAKER_03 39:16

Did you think that you'd come on?

SPEAKER_00 39:19

I remember I remember questioned like towards the end of the tour like we we had we had Channel 4 news team come out with us and there's a situation we can we can go into a little bit more later if you want but there's a situation but afterwards when I come down off a roof I was like fucking hell like I I literally just want to go home now. Do you know what I mean? I'm ready to go home now. I've been in enough contacts now. It's not fun anymore. Do you know what I mean? It's like reality. And then you look around and you look at, you know, platoon sergeants, which are having to be replaced because, you know, lads like platoon sergeants who were on their rear party having to fly out because platoon sergeants have been lost, like section commanders, section two ICs, like, you know, lads, lads, like guardsmen. It's, yeah, it's, it's mad. And

SPEAKER_03 40:30

what are the, most of the casualties coming from in terms of, is it IEDs, small arms?

SPEAKER_00 40:35

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. IEDs. IEDs was, was all of them. all of the lads who died were IEDs. So the first lad was inside Bastion. The second lad was up at Badaka, which also took out a couple of other people. One of the only lads who I did know from the company before I got there lost his leg. And then when we were Kazivac-ing him, somebody else stood on an IED. The lad who stood on an IED died. The lad who who stood on the first IED and was being cazivate, then lost his second leg. So he was involved in two. The third lad, again, IED. Fourth lad taking over, again, going out, trying to push out, trying to take more ground, taking over a checkpoint. Platoon commander, IED. And then, yeah, the last lad, IED. All of them IEDs.

SPEAKER_03 41:42

So you mentioned, like, the fun going out of contact. I think that's something like, you know, I mean, even honestly, mate, when I'm working on the Second World War stuff, I hear this from people. They're quite excited to get into contact, and they actually kind of enjoy them to begin with, and then it wears off, and it wears off, and it wears off.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

Can

SPEAKER_03 42:01

you talk us through? Can you remember the first time you came under fire?

SPEAKER_00 42:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah. First time we came under fire. I'd say the first time we'd come into contact, it was more like little shoot and scoot type things. Not necessarily, I mean, it is a contact, but it's not, it wasn't necessarily, you know, there was quite a few contacts which were, they were over as much as before, you know, before they started really. But then again, you say that, what feels like two minutes could be 10, 15, 20 minutes, do you know what I mean? It's time just literally goes so quick there. But the first contact where I was like, Fucking hell, that was a bit fucking scary, that was. Do you know what I mean? We were in this compound. We were out on patrol. Again, we were basically just pushing further and further on every time. And it was the other side of Padacca. So the other side of the IED belt, the little village where the IED belt was, it was the other side of that. And we come on, come into this compound. And then we started getting contacted. So I made my way down, down the alleyway with one of the lads to get eyes on like where we seen, we seen where they were coming from. We're both getting rounds down. And then we tried to radio back to give to give an update of where give a grid reference really of where we were being contacted from but the PRRs weren't working it was something to do with the ECM the ECM would set the PRRs off so like it put it on constant send so it'd be on off on off on off so we couldn't we couldn't get through to um

SPEAKER_03 43:52

So just, sorry to interrupt, mate. So basically we've got to talk about personal role radio is being affected by the electronic countermeasures, which is like the counter ID stuff. Just in case we've got any series, mate.

SPEAKER_00 44:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sound. Or REMFs.

SPEAKER_03 44:09

No offense, REMFs, please.

SPEAKER_00 44:12

I was a REMF. So, yeah, so our PRRs weren't working and, It was hit and miss. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. But the lad who I went down with, both of them, both of our PRRs were either on constant send or on, off, on, off, on, off. So when we were trying to press a button to radio back, it wouldn't work. So the other lad was like, I'm going to go back up and I'm going to update where we're getting shot from. So it was literally just me at the end of this alleyway.

UNKNOWN 44:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

Anyway, rounds were coming down and we were getting closer and closer. And at one point I was like, okay, I don't have much, I don't have much fucking, you know, cover here or anything like that. I'm kind of just a fucking sitting duck. Um, The round started coming over to the point where I couldn't get my head up anymore to get any rounds back. So I was like, I need to get back towards a compound. So I started crawling up the alleyway. As I'm going up the alleyway again, I can hear the crack and thump of a round coming over my head and I'm thinking, this is fucking close, this. Halfway up the alleyway, there was like... So you've got the alleyway here, but the building was stuck out a little bit. So it allowed me to... It gave like a bit of a wall, a bit of a barrier. Stood behind there. But again, still in the middle of no man's land. I couldn't do anything. Couldn't get any rounds back. Couldn't get eyes on. And I was like, I literally just got rounds landing around my feet, going past me here. And then the next thing I know, from the roof above me, one of the lads with the jimpy... Don't know if you heard my dog then. One of the lads... Yeah,

SPEAKER_03 45:55

sorry, mate.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

Yeah, from the roof above me, one of the lads with the jimpy just started hammering rounds down. And I was like, fuck it. I didn't know where it was coming from at first. I didn't know if it was incoming or if it was one of the lads or what. But when I realized it was one of the lads, I thought the next burst, I said, I'm just making a run for it. Next burst of rounds come down, and that was it. I was gone. Just pegged it back straight into a compound. And I was like, fuck it. That was my first real proper contact, really.

SPEAKER_03 46:26

How did you feel once you got out of it, once you were back in the PB or back in a, like, whatever the, if you know, whatever the kind of, once the adrenaline started wearing off and stuff?

SPEAKER_00 46:38

That was early days. That was quite early days, really. So it's not as if it's adrenaline buds at first, you know what I mean? Like, it is. Like, I'm yet to come... come close to anything that even gives you an adrenaline buzz like being in a contact it's I don't I know I know that everybody says that but I don't I don't know you just it's one of them you don't you don't really know what to do you go back you laugh you laugh about it with the lads like you you smoke a fag you don't even I didn't even smoke do you know what I mean but you sat there smoking smoking a fag with the lads to try and bring the adrenaline down or just have a bit of a bit of humanity back around yeah so and It was quite early days. I hadn't been in enough contacts by that point to think, I'm done with this shit. I'm done with this now. So it was a buzz, mate, to be honest with you, to begin with.

SPEAKER_03 47:37

So you mentioned you saw the enemy on that occasion. How often in these contacts were you actually seeing the enemy? Or was it like, because you mentioned murder holes as well. Were they quite good at using cover? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:52

Yeah, me. They were good at using cover and they were good at playing us our own game as well in the respect that when we first got out there, we were operating under Card Alpha. Obviously, you know what Card Alpha is, but for those that are listening, who don't, Card Alpha is your rules of engagement, the initial rules of engagement where you can only shoot to protect yourself freely. So once they opened up on us, contact us or whatever with small arms, with rifles or RPGs or whatever, as soon as they've stopped firing upon us, they're no longer a threat. So therefore, that threat's then disappeared. So therefore, we can't return fire. We can't shoot. We can't do this. So they were good at contacting us and then fitting back in with the general population there, putting the rifles down and just being... just being a farmer or whatever they say they are.

SPEAKER_03 48:54

I mean, we had this on our tour as well, which kind of overlapped yours. I'm assuming you had the same thing. You know, a lot of people, when they think of Afghanistan, they think of A10 runs, Apaches.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:07

I think by the time, you know, you were there, then that was like a really like a very hard thing to get, right?

SPEAKER_00 49:13

Mate, we did have quite a few Apaches which came in. Because of where we were and because we were so remote, we had no vehicles. Everything was on foot. I think we had one Land Rover for the company. But before I'd even got there, now bear in mind, I'd got there maybe to the patrol base only a few weeks after the lads. And by the time I'd got there, the Land Rover was blown up. a grenade had come over the wall and it had blown it up and it took it out of action. The only other mode of transport that we had was I think maybe two or three quad bikes and that six-wheeler thing. But again, they never went out on any patrols or any ops with us. They were basically used for resupply. So when the hurt came in and dropped all the air rations and water and whatever else off, it was used to go out, pick her up. It stayed within the patrol bus. So everything was on foot. So because obviously we didn't have all the weapon systems that we had were what we could carry. We didn't have no 50 cows on top of mastiffs or we didn't have anything like that. So we did get We did get, you know, fast air come in. We did get quite a few Apaches come in. Makes for good footage as well. And

SPEAKER_03 50:45

are they coming in and actually unloading or are they kind of coming in as a...

SPEAKER_00 50:49

Oh, yeah. No, coming in, dropping buttons and, you know, firing. I'm not sure what weapon it is from the Apache, but yeah, they're firing.

SPEAKER_03 50:58

It's big.

SPEAKER_00 50:59

Yeah, it's big. You don't want to mess with it. It's getting

SPEAKER_03 51:03

round. Was that... Was there like many civilians around in this area then? Because it sounds like there's IEDs everywhere. It sounds like there's a pretty active kind of forward line of outing troops. So are you seeing many civics?

SPEAKER_00 51:16

Yes. Yeah. I mean, we did. I don't remember how often. Genuinely don't remember how often. I know I've got pictures with... with little Afghan kids. Do you know what I mean? But there was a compound next to our patrol base. It was basically attached. And the guy who lived there was on our side, giving us information about the Taliban, about this, et cetera. But it turned out like it was the Taliban. So it was like, that's how he was living. 15 meters the other side of the wall. All the loads are lined up with the stones which are piled up on each of there to show the civilians of where they can walk and stuff. I think the local civilians knew, you know, we're told these IEDs down this way, don't go that way. Do you know what I mean? But again, being military, like you said at the beginning, what you don't want to do is set patterns. So it's not as if you can find the route and then stick to that route and take that route every day. So...

SPEAKER_03 52:41

So this Taliban bloke living next door, what was going on with him then? Was he feeding you duff information or was he just trying to give himself an easy life? Was it a Taliban... Because obviously the Taliban never would have existed without some people supporting him, right? So you might just be a Taliban supporter without being necessarily... I think

SPEAKER_00 53:02

he was... I think he was just after an easy life, mate. To be honest, that was way above my pay scale job, which I was doing there. So the ins and outs of it, I'm not 100% sure, but he used to come to the meetings and... with the interpreters and stuff like that, like actually inside the patrol base. And obviously he lived next door to the compound, so he knew that compound and obviously knew where everything was and the layout of it and stuff like that. I think he was feeding us information. I think he was maybe giving us as little information as what he could get away with. And then also maybe doing the same. I think he was maybe just playing both sides. Not sure. Not sure.

UNKNOWN 53:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:52

You mentioned a grenade coming over the wall. Was that an actual hand grenade?

SPEAKER_00 53:58

Yeah, actual hand grenade, yeah. I mean, I wasn't there at that point, but yeah, it was an actual hand grenade. It came over the wall. It blew the Land Rover up. And then obviously before that PB was actually established and all the HESCO was up and everything like that, we'd made HESCO doors, gates, et cetera. The Land Rover was officially then became our gate. That's what got put in between the wall to stop anybody coming in. That was it. It became just a big gate.

SPEAKER_03 54:30

So it's just impossible to just keep eyes on every part of the compound walls because of the shape of the compound.

SPEAKER_00 54:39

Yeah, there was four big sangas. But mate, the compound was actually quite big. It was big. I went to PB4 where I was at. I went to PB3, probably quarter of the size. PB2, again, was probably half the size. PB1, I actually never went to. Well, yeah, it was big. And there was only four centers, one in each corner, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:19

So going back to the rules of engagement then, like I said, you know, just so people understand as well, this is the same rules of engagement that you'd have if you were doing like a duty on guard, on camp in the UK. How did you and the blokes feel about being on that kind of rules of engagement?

SPEAKER_00 55:41

Mate, it was frustrating. It was frustrating.

UNKNOWN 55:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:47

We had a couple of Americans out with us at times throughout my tour when I was at PB4. I'm not sure. Maybe I was at another PB. But the Americans obviously have different rules of engagement. So when you're with the Americans, their rules of engagement are different. They see something happening. I'm not 100% all fair on their rules of engagement, but they could they could contact that. And then a contact then breaks out. That then opens you up because you're already in a contact then. So it's like you're kind of wanting a contact to be able to... Like there's times you see people digging in IEDs in a road from Masanga. You call it in over the radio. Yeah, I've got two times packs digging in an IED 300 metres away, for example. Can see them doing it. And you can't do anything because we're not on immediate threat. even though they're going to place an IED there, which could potentially kill you, one of your blokes in a week, two week, or even a civilian within the area. Anybody could kill anybody within the area. But because they're not on an immediate threat, there's nothing you can do. It's frustrating. It's frustrating. Or you get contacted. You get contacted. I was on a roof. And since somebody, well, obviously then became a contact and I could, I could see him through my sight. And you're engaging with him. And then the next thing you know, he's put his rifle down behind the wall or whatever. He came out from behind the wall and just walking along, walking away. There's nothing you can do. They're no longer a threat to you. It's frustrating.

SPEAKER_03 57:37

What was it? Because, I mean, you say there's nothing you can do, right? Yeah. Which I understand in the legal sense. I mean, you could have shot him. What was it that stopped you shooting him once he put his weapon down? Was it because you felt it was the wrong thing to do or because you felt that there would be repercussions from it or maybe it makes you a bull?

SPEAKER_00 58:04

Mate, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I don't know if it was a morality. I don't know if it was just because... it was the rules of what you're allowed to do, the fear of what could happen, you know, if you do make a wrong decision. I mean, I don't know. It's just, you just can't.

SPEAKER_03 58:34

Were you and the blokes aware of stories about people who had been taken to court over shooting, like, I mean, even like, you know, like Brian Wood's case in Iraq where you know, they had a massive ambush and then they still got taken to court over it and stuff. Was things like that something that you were aware of?

SPEAKER_00 58:54

Yeah, everybody's aware of it. And we had an RMP stationed with us as well. Top luck, yes. Absolutely top luck. He wasn't there to obviously fuck anybody over or anything like that at all. But, you know, there was times where You know, contacts happened or you've took a prisoner. Have you called prisoners? I'm not sure. Took a prisoner back and then you've put them in a holding area while a Chinook comes in to take them back to Bastion or whatever. But he's got to go around and give interviews. You've got to give an interview on a situation that happened and this. I mean, you're an Afghan. You're at a war and you're being questioned by... Royal Military Police. I mean, that's a job. To be fair, he got... He was one of the lads as well. Because of the nature of the company and the amount of casualties that there were, and because of the job which we were doing and where we were, everybody was an infantry bot there, regardless of cap badge. There's an RLC chef there, sergeant. Again, top block. He was... He was on the ground every day. A chef, he was going out, band leered up, UGL on his rifle. So, you know, it's not necessarily your typical chef role. I think everybody within that PB and within that company, like it was, you're there, you're doing an infantry job.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:34

Yeah. I mean, that's why everyone has the same basic training, right? To a certain point. Yeah. You know, the idea is... and i think yeah maybe that's got lost a bit when people say well i'm in there i'm not in the infantry so well you might you might find yourself in it one day you know you know not but not by choice so bit of every question mate but did you ever that you know i've put down any of the enemy

SPEAKER_00 1:01:02

i mean but you're in a contact do i know do i know if i've killed anyone is the answer's no The answer's no. Have I been in a contact where you're getting rounds put at you, you're firing rounds back, you're going through magazines non-stop, straight onto the GMP, LMG, whatever it is, and then rounds stop coming in at you, like all of a sudden. I mean, you are in them. I have been in them situations, but it's not... I haven't got a sniper rifle with a big scope on, do you know what I mean? I'm not getting headshots from 500 meters. I'm not, you know, I'm putting rounds down. I can see the guy through my scope or whatever it is. And yeah, you just put rounds down until they don't come back.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:58

Do you ever wonder about it? And if you do, does it, would it bother you if you did?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:05

Nah. Not in that respect. Not in the respect of, like, have I took somebody's life? That doesn't even cross my mind. And if it does, like we're talking about it now, it doesn't affect. That doesn't affect me at all. Is that brutal? No, it's not, is it?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:31

No, we're not always trying to kill you, mate. And not when you made some comedy to get him blown up all the time. So anything else? I should have asked you this at the beginning, mate, so I do apologize. But you mentioned the compounds and stuff in the area. Was there much green zone and stuff around there as well? Was there much kind of... um what would you like how would i describe i mean we say green zone so much i don't even know what to call it now trees yeah was there a lot of tree trees and greenery around there was it because you were there in the winter right so it was yeah we were what was the kind of what was the weather like and what was the kind of uh topography that has the right

SPEAKER_00 1:03:13

word uh when you first went out there september it was it was red hot still red hot still

SPEAKER_03 1:03:19

um

SPEAKER_00 1:03:22

sleeping outside, like I said, in a compound, on a cardboard box, on a floor with a muzzinet over you and a jungle sleeping bag, which you put one leg out of because it's too hot. Once December comes, then it's cold. December, January is freezing. I remember being out on an op. We went out on the 21st of December, it was. No, 20th of December, and it was supposed to be a two or three day op. We were supposed to be in before Christmas anyway. I remember being on the roof one night, stagging on, and it was fucking freezing, like so fucking cold. I was carrying an ECM with two spare batteries. Obviously, the ECM's massive, but batteries were like five kilos each, so there's 15 kilos just in that. Then you've got your... your ECM on top, then you've got your water, then you've got your food, then you've got your body armour and all your magazines and stuff like that. There's no room for a DOS bag or anything like that. So all I had was the bivvy bag just to take the wind off me. But, mate, I remember putting it over my head and just trying to breathe as much as I can just to warm it up inside because it was that cold. My hands were freezing. And then, yeah, we were only supposed to be out for three days and then We had to get resupplied. A helicopter had to come in, resupply us on the ground with ammo and stuff. And then it then went on and it wasn't until Christmas Eve we were stuck in this wadi. There was a lot of wadis about. So a wadi obviously being the drainage ditch, which they, from the river, they'll dig drainage ditches in and then obviously break the banks for all the water to go down the wadi, the drainage ditch, to then obviously water their fields and stuff, their poppy fields or whatever fields that they have. So there was a lot of wadis, a lot of drainage ditches, and we were in a contact. And we were stuck in this wadi for hours, mate, hours. Every time we tried to get out, bear in mind we were supposed to be back in the PB a day before or a couple of days before. It was coming up to Christmas as well. We were stuck in this wadi. It was waist deep. I still had a look at the pictures. We have a week actually going back. I have a look back every now and again. Every time we got out of a wadi, we'd get contacted. So we had to jump straight back in, back and get out the wadi, try and move on, straight back in, straight back in. And it was fucking freezing. It was minus temperatures. In the end, we had to get a Chinook come in, pick us up, take us back to a PB. So we had to get heavily backed out. But yeah, it was mad. It was fucking cold. I've never seen hailstones like it, like golf balls, literally like golf balls. But it's mad. So you go from like September where it's like 30, 40 degrees to then minus temperatures. And when it rains, everything's sand. So it just becomes a bog. It's just a bog everywhere. You're just living in mud forever. You know, weeks on end, everything's just shit up. Your boots are shit up. You've only got a limited amount of water because everything's got to be flown in, you know, and then you've got to wash and drink with that. Yeah, it's fucking mad. But then February comes, starts warming up again. March, it's fucking red hot.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:00

Mention the washing, mate. Like, did you have to shave? Haircuts? I mean, you're the garbs, right? So was it pretty smart or were you cut a bit of slack?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:12

Yeah. I went home and out of an army. I went home and out of an army in the January or the February, I think it was. Fucking long hair. I had long hair. Obviously, you didn't really have to cut your hair. We didn't have no fucking plug sockets or anything. Do you know what I mean? It's like, what are you going to cut with? We didn't have no running water. We didn't have, you know, we didn't have... We didn't have any luxuries like that. We had to piss in a drain pipe in the floor and shit in a bag and burn it. That was the full time that you were there. If you got anything other than ration packs, it was a fucking luxury. So you were cut a bit of slack in there, like long hair, stuff like that, et cetera. In terms of shaving, we didn't shave every day, but no beards light base or anything like that going on. But yeah, I went home and I had a massive fucking long hair. And I came back and I didn't fucking cut it. And yeah, the company started majoring fucking mental. Fucking get that hair cut. You've got a fucking ponytail. You don't represent our fucking battalion like that. Fucking chip shop bastard fucking turning up with fucking long hair.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:24

How did you feel about R&R? Do you think it was a good thing for you?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:31

Not me? Nah. So... It must have been, it was a February, it was. It must have been, when did I, 2009, 2010. So it was February, 2010. Were you in the UK? Did you deploy then?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:44

Yeah, we came back in February, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:46

Yeah, so it was when that massive snowstorm hit the UK. So I'd got back to Kandahar to obviously then fly back for my two weeks R&R. And Bryce Norton got shut. because of a snowstorm. So then we were delayed in Kandahar for two days. And then he was like, yeah, you're definitely going to go tomorrow. Then it got delayed again. Then it got delayed again. So I was stuck in Kandahar for five days. So now I only had nine days before I was due back at the patrol base. I was still in fucking Kandahar. When we did fly back, we couldn't land at Bright, so we had to land at Birmingham. A bus then had to pick us up, bring us all the way back down to Aldershot. And then by the time I got home, I think I had five full days at home where it was snowing. Couldn't fucking do anything. And yeah, I had to go back. So it was a fucking waste of time for me. Fucking

SPEAKER_03 1:09:47

shit. What do you think about the idea of going off the ground for two weeks to give yourself some, to get some rest? Do you think it's a good idea or would you rather have cracked on?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:55

I personally would have

SPEAKER_03 1:09:56

laughed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:59

Yeah, I personally would have rather cracked on, mate, because when you come back and you're at home, you're at home physically, but you're not home mentally. You're no good to anybody. Like, you're just fucking snappy. Yeah, it's not. I personally would have just cracked on. I personally don't think it's a good idea, but I can see why it is a good idea for, you know, people. especially if you've got wives and kids. I mean, I had a wife and kid, but my son was young. He wasn't even at school yet. So he wasn't struggling with like homework or GCSEs or anything like that. He had a childminder. My wife went to work. She basically just became a single parent for the time that I was away.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:52

Yeah, I almost feel with it like for a lot of blokes, myself included, I think rather than going home, maybe a better thing would be like twice in the tour, you just get a few days in like a Kandahar or something. Yeah. So you're not doing– you've got a few days to sleep, you've got a few days to eat as much as you want, mooch around the boardwalk. I think I would have rather taken that 14 days and every now and again you jump on the back of a Chinook and you just get a fucking shower and everything like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I felt the same way, mate, because we had– quite a bad incident while I was away as well luckily the lads pulled through but you know you just sat there like you just feel like shit then because you're just like the fucking lads are out there and just sat and sitting oh I didn't want I didn't want to go on it mate so I wasn't a fan of that personally but then I know other lads who just couldn't wait to get on it 100% yeah

SPEAKER_01 1:11:44

yeah I

SPEAKER_03 1:11:45

wouldn't want I wouldn't want that taken away from you know from where we won it you know definitely not I think it should be a choice yeah In a weird way as well, I think almost the quieter tour, the more the R&R is a better idea because it's a quieter tour. You're not worried about the lads. You're not doing any of that. I mean, it's tough. I can understand it's very difficult for the army to go, oh, let's tailor your R&R. But it's the army, isn't it? Everyone gets the fucking same thing. This is the ration pack you're having. This is the shit bag you're having. And this is the R&R you're having. Anything else you want to talk about on that tour, Mick?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:25

um i don't know maybe there's there's more stuff that i put in the book and to be honest with you everything that i've spoke about on this isn't necessarily really in in in my book so like i've only actually spoke about one really specific incident in my book. I didn't want it to be a war story. Do you know what I mean? There's a lot of war stories out there and there's a lot of people who have got a lot better war stories than what I've got.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:56

Tell people that, mate. They'll stop listening to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:01

Just means you need to do more, mate. Get more on. But yeah, there's a situation in there which is a big situation, mate, to be honest with you. And it kind of shaped my whole mentality when I got got back from afghan and started my like my downfall of my my like my mental state and stuff like that um in regards to a situation where again we'd we'd gone into we'd gone into a place where where no isaf forces had been we took over this compound and um of of an evening I was fucking stacking on the roof. I'd like the death shift or whatever you call it, you know, the 4 a.m. till 6 a.m. where when you finish, you can't go back to sleep and get any rest or anything like that. Death stag or whatever. So, yeah, I was on that. And it come over the radio about the interpreter that we were with. I'd picked up an ICOM chatter, ICOM chatter being obviously the radios of the Taliban, basically saying that they... they're going to hit us on the next transition. Because obviously, transition every two hours, not on the hour, every hour, whenever it may be. It might be hour 45, it might be two hour 15, whatever it is, just to keep a little bit of irregularity. So obviously, I was on Stag at the time and I got that message over the radio saying they're going to hit you on the next changeover. The lad who was coming up, a guy called Tom, he was the RMP, to be fair. Obviously, he came up I was on the roof. I was telling him, yeah, compound here, compound there. I've seen activity over here, people moving around over there. Also, just been told that we're going to get contacted on this changeover. So what I'll do is I will climb down the ladder, but I'll wait at the bottom of the ladder for three, four minutes or whatever. In case we do get contacted, I can just get straight back up. He was like, yeah, yeah, sound. No worries. I hadn't even got to the bottom of the ladder. and we start getting contacted. Tom's lying there on the roof and I make a beeline run over him rather than getting him to move down so I can get down. I just run, jump over him, get down. But the roof that we were on had like a negative slant or whatever it was. So my head was lower than my legs, if you get what I mean. So it was a fucking awkward position to be in a fire position. Anyway, we're getting contacted, asking where from. And he's like, there's a compound. And it was a double story, which is weird because a double story compound out there, it's not seen. Everything's just a one story compound. So we're getting contacted from there. Round coming in, literally left, right and centre, pinging off us. There's a metal pole in front of us. It can hear the rounds pinging off us, pinging around our feet. And the next thing I know is Guys, somebody's just thrown a fucking brick at my head. I said, the fuck? So I crawled to the end of the building, have a look down. I'm like, mate, there's fucking nobody there. It's like somebody's just threw a brick at my head. They're fucking close. So obviously I've got a grenade in the body armour pouches. So I'm fucking trying to get my grenade out, have a look over. I'm like, mate, there's fucking nobody there. Look back around. The guy had been fucking shot in the helmet. Literally, literally here, mate.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:34

Honestly. The guy's pointing to the front of his helmet here.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:37

I reckon probably... Five mil lower, mate, and it's missed the bottom of his helmet and got him in his head. I'm like, mate, you've been fucking shot in the head. So I get on the radio. I'm like, fucking, come to my major. Fucking Tom's been shot in the head. He's like, what? This is all in a Channel 4 news documentary as well, mate. And the thing is, though, the video's not on there. I've tried sending him a message about it to try and get it because I spoke about this incident a lot when I was at Combat Stress. But I said to her, Tom's been fucking shot in the head. He's like, fucking get him down, get him down. So get him down off the roof. I can throw him down. I don't see him, but I'm stuck on this roof by myself. I said by myself, down in the corner to the right of me, there's an Afghan National Army soldier. He'd built up like a little sandbag area, which he was fucking hid behind. Some rounds are coming down. This guy's just fucking sat there behind it, fucking hiding behind, not getting any fucking rounds down. So I've got a mini flare and fucking fired it at him. So I get some fucking rounds down, fucking start firing. The guy just lifts up his fucking rifle, mate. Don't even lift his head up from over the sandbag and just starts fucking firing aimlessly. I'm like, this is fucking bullshit, this. So I'm basically just up there, by myself. So I'm getting rounds down, fucking changing magazines, fucking moving along. Bear in mind, I'm on this fucking negative slant where my fucking legs are above my head. My helmet's being pushed forward from the back of my body armour. So I'm getting rounds down here. And honestly, mate, it felt like five minutes, ten minutes. But I had an old iPod, a blue one. with a camera on the back. And what I'd done is I put some sniper tape over the blue shiny bit and I was recording it. But it was in my PRR pouch on my chest. So it wasn't actually recording. It was basically just recording the roof in front of me, but it was recording all of the sound and stuff. When I watched the video, mate, it was about an hour long, something like that. So what felt like fucking five minutes, I just remember lads saying like, There's a UGL up there. There's an LMG up there. And I've got me with my fucking rifle. So I'm getting my rounds down. I've run out of magazines. I've got lads throwing more magazines up. So then I'm on the LMG. And then firing UGLs into the compound. Next thing I know, mortars are fucking going off in and around us. Yeah, it was mad. It was mad. But like I said, it felt like it was five minutes. So there's probably a lot more that went on. But it's... I don't know. I just remember seeing the splash literally right next to me. The metal pole, which was six inches away from me on the left, getting pinged with rounds. Obviously, Tom had just been fucking shot in the head. And I had this A&A guy who was, he may as well have just been a fucking sandbag me. He was, he was fucking mad. He was mad. Come down after it, carried on with your fucking, with your open stuff. And to be honest with you, didn't really think too much more of it while I was there. I remember getting back and plugging my iPod into somebody's, somebody's laptop. But it was being run off a generator, so we only had, like, 20 minutes worth of charge on it. I said, watching it, listening to it going on. And I was like, fucking hell, that's fucking mad. That's mad. And I think listening to it afterwards, then fucked me up further on down the line because it made me think a lot more about it and the things that were happening and stuff like that. I think if that situation had just happened and I never recorded it, I think it would have been fine afterwards. But the fact that it was recorded and I could go back and watch it and listen to it, I found myself doing that quite often, especially at times when I felt like fucking shit as well. Which then made me just fucking spiral even more, really, to be honest with you. Sorry, mate. I

SPEAKER_03 1:21:15

was going to say, you mean when you got home or while you were on deployment?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:19

No, when I got home. Yeah, when I got home. It didn't really... I remember going back, like, and watching it in my bed space in the PB, thinking, fucking hell, like, I was lucky. Like, that's fucking lucky, that is. Like, how the fuck one did Tom survive by being shot in the head? There's a picture of him in the book, actually. I'll send it to you after this, of his helmet, of where he got hit. And, mate, I was just fucking... I mean, I was getting rounds down. I was maybe getting... you know, 15, 20 rounds down, fucking crawling to a new position. But while I'm crawling, I'm dragging a fucking LMG with me as well. And then fucking getting more rounds down and then fucking moving. And I had no cover. I had no sandbags in front of me. I was on a fucking, if anything, the roof that I was on and the way that it was slanted with my feet above my head, it made me more of a target and showed more of me to the Taliban anyway. But yeah, I look back at it and I'm like, that's a fucking situation where I genuinely don't have a fucking clue how one, I got out there alive and two, I actually got out there without getting fucking hit.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:36

And when in your tour was this? When in the tour? Yeah, what stage would this be?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:43

This was maybe March 2010. If you type in on Google, being watched on the Afghan Frontline Channel 4, there was a massive write-up about that operation that we'd done and also a video that was attached to it as well. But the video's no longer attached to it, but the write-up's still on there. I'm going to guess it was end of March, something like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:11

You send me a link to that, mate. I'll put it down in the show notes. Yeah. Yeah. So that was towards right at the back end of the tour as well then. Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about the wind down of the tour then coming back to the UK and stuff. Did you spend much time in Bastion or was it a case of you were getting off the ground and you were straight to, did you go to Cyprus or?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:35

No, mate, this is, so this is a weird, this is the weird thing. I came back early. Yeah. I came back like two weeks before the lads because although I was attached to them throughout the whole of the tour, I was never initially supposed to be like– I was a Remy Cat badge, do you know what I mean? So who I was, the uni– what's it called? I don't know. PID. Yeah, the PID where I was. And everybody within around there– we're coming we're ripping out two weeks before the lads left the ground so i came back early but uh well i was coming out of there early but i still didn't go back with um with the lads with like the remicap badge lads or anything like that i actually came back with the company sound major and we got on the flight did we go to kandahar i don't know i don't i don't i don't remember the route back but i remember being flying into cyprus and the I can get us on a flight straight away tonight without doing Cyprus and without doing decompression or anything like that. Do you want to come? I was like, fucking right. 100%. I don't know fucking nobody here. I don't know anyone. So we ended up flying into Cyprus and then from Cyprus to jumping straight on a plane and flying back To Bryce, yeah. Flew back to Bryce. So from leaving Afghan to being back in the UK, I was back in the UK within 24 hours. Didn't do no Cyprus, didn't do no decompression, nothing. Didn't do anything with the lads. Got back. I didn't see the lads then. So then I then got back and the first thing I'd done was book onto my PTI course as soon as I got back. And it was starting in like two weeks or whatever it was. So then I got back in the UK, went straight on my PTI course, didn't even then see the lads. The PTI course, I think, was 10 weeks long. So then didn't see the lads. And then I then done pre-deployment leave or post-deployment leave, sorry. So then I then had like two months off. So then by the time I actually got back to the battalion and saw the lads that I was with from leaving Afghan was probably three and a half months. It was mad. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:58

I mean, you seemed like in good spirits when you were on the PCI course. I mean, obviously it was part of that and kept busy and stuff. You haven't really got much time to sit around and think, have you?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:08

Yeah. Like I said, I didn't want to be in the Rimi. I didn't want to be in the Rimi at all. So having come back from tour, having been with the rifle company and then going back to a Rimi unit, to the guys who were on rear party because they couldn't deploy because they were basically fat wasters, basically injured or getting out. I'd then go back to the Rimi workshop. And as soon as I walked in, I was like, fuck this. Genuinely do not. I've got no fucking interest in speaking to you. I don't care about a fucking engine. I don't care about a fucking brakes. I genuinely don't give a shit about this. This isn't like... And you're fat. That was my mentality, mate. So I was like, okay, I'm just going to book myself on a PTI course. So I was like, I need to book on a PTI course. So I did. And the PT core bloke was actually still in Afghan. I forged his signature to get on

SPEAKER_02 1:27:09

the

SPEAKER_00 1:27:11

PTI course. So I forged his signature to get on. Yeah, so I was straight on the PTI course, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:19

We were in the same section, weren't we? Who was your section commander? Staff Canon.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah. More so. Flag champions, mate.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:30

Yeah. We were, actually. I remember that. Mad.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:36

So when you got back there, mate, what was things? Because, I mean, like, you know, that was, like, we got weekends off and stuff. So what was it like then, that summer, being back and seeing your family on the weekends and stuff?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:50

Mate, my... My marriage never lasted long after that. My marriage never lasted long. I mean, I deployed to Afghan on three days notice without even asking my wife. When I deployed to Afghan, I'd only been back from Iraq for fucking 11 months. Do you know what I mean? So then I'd been in Iraq before. So pre-deployment training for Iraq, then deploying for Iraq. Then I got posted down to Aldershot. Bit of pre-deployment training, even though I was only fucking reserved to go, but still had to do pre-deployment training. Then fucking volunteered to go there. Then come back. Then I was straight on the PTI course. Yeah, mate, I wasn't a fucking good husband at all. And in that time, to be honest with you, my wife had set up her own life as such. She was a single parent. She had her own friends and stuff like that. I wasn't the same person who I was before I went. But I didn't know why, if you get what I mean. I was edgy as fuck. I had... no patience at all. I was snappy. Like I'd come back and think that I could just walk back into the house and it was like, you know, things would just be fucking normal. My expectation, that was my expectations. I expected that when actually my fucking wife and my son had just had to live fucking six months, nine months without me. Do you know what I mean? And form a new life, form the new friends. They've got their own routine. They go out to fucking kids club. She goes to work. She goes out with her friends of a weekend and stuff like that. And yeah, it just became toxic. It was, we didn't, we didn't hate each other at all. In fact, like we still really, really fucking get on now. Like we have, we have a really, really get on or we really fucking can't stand each other. There was no hate. There's no hatred. There was no hatred there or anything like that. But yeah, I just expected everything just to be back to how it was really. And yeah, she left. was it so she she left she moved back up north so then overnight i'd been lost my wife and my son and become a part-time dad really and my weekends consisted of driving 340 miles every weekend to see my son on i don't know 23 000 pound a year or whatever it was but i was on and then only having one income because She'd now left, but I had to pay for the house still. And the catalogs that we had, proper typical young military family, you know, like getting things on a catalog and things that we couldn't afford, but paying it monthly, we could afford it because we had two wages. We weren't living beyond our means at all. But then once that relationship then split up, I was fucking well out. I was well out of my means. I had no fucking money. I had to go and try and see my son every weekend, 350 miles one way, 700 mile return trip, paying for fuel, which I fucking didn't have, couldn't put food on the table, living off a credit card, constantly living off a credit card. It got to the point, it was that bad at one point, that I'd actually got posted to Borden as a PTI, training in phase two, and I'd set, board and gym up as a CMP, the supplement as a CMP distributor. So I'd get everything at wholesale prices. So I'd order it in on my credit card and then sell it to the lads on camp for a discounted price, but more than what I'd bought it for, just so that I could have cash and I could spend money. But my credit card bill was just fucking racking up every month. It was getting more and more expensive every month. It was a fucking shit situation. Still hadn't got over that my wife had left me. Yeah, mate, I was going out on the pace. I was just fucking drinking every night, just fucking drinking. I'd go down the mess and the bar woman down the mess would just do me a tab every month. I'd just buy drinks and then at the end of the month, I'd go and pay my fucking tab off. Yeah, it was a fucking shit situation.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:04

So when did you decide to leave the army there?

SPEAKER_00 1:32:08

So I got medically discharged. So during that whole process as well, this is kind of what my book's about. It's like I said to you before, it's not necessarily a war story. It's about the effects. It's called The Siren War. So it's about the war that's... beyond the war so comes back and i wasn't fucking sleeping very well like i said i used to watch that fucking video over and over um i knew fucking something was wrong and i um i tried to go to dcmh about it and they were just like oh it's just fucking stress it's just stress dcmh is defense community and mental health so i went to um dcmh defense community mental health and said look i'm not fucking sleeping i'm having fucking nightmares i've got fucking real bad anxiety for fucking some reason um i'm just constantly um like hyper vigilant fucking jumpy i've got i've got no fucking patience i'm fucking snappy fucking something's not right but like oh it's just stress just stress i was like i'm not fucking sleeping not at all like i genuinely haven't fucking slept for for days now I'd go days without sleeping and then just fucking pass out and just crash so they gave me a load of fucking sleeping tablets didn't they um and uh I was then on these fucking sleeping tablets then started having nightmares started having flashbacks and actually realising what I was having like flashbacks and nightmares about um went back to DCMH and told them about this and they're like yeah just you're tired you're this and it got to a point where i one night i just wanted to fucking sleep so much i couldn't fucking sleep i just took a load of fucking sleeping tablets i literally wanted an escape from my own head mate i was fucking struggling and i just wanted an escape from my own head i took a load of tablets and um woke up Well, my partner woke me up the next day and I was like, what the fuck's going on here? This happened twice, by the way. It was fucking more than death later on. But she took me straight back to DCMH and was like, you need to look at him. Do you know what I mean? He's fucking shouting in his sleep. He's screaming in his sleep. He's not fucking sleeping. That sounds contradictive, doesn't it? When I was sleeping, I was fucking shouting and fucking having nightmares in my sleep and stuff.

UNKNOWN 1:34:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:50

he's just fucking drinking to try and, you know, he just starts fucking crying. He can't go out to fucking busy places anymore. Like he's just fucking completely changed. Um, so I ended up being a DCMH anyway and got diagnosed with PTSD. Um, and then from when, from when I got diagnosed with PTSD in 2015, October, November, 2015, I then got, um, 12 months notice. Yeah, you basically, you're not going into work now. You're a med board. You're getting med discharge 12 months time. Here's your time to go and do your fucking treatment. Treatment was shit.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:34

Was this the period where the army was making a lot of redundancies?

SPEAKER_00 1:35:39

It was 2015. I think the redundancies were before that, weren't they? I think the redundancies were 2010. With the 2012, there was two trenches, wasn't there?

SPEAKER_03 1:35:52

Yeah. I mean, if someone's got a broken leg, right, or usually the army doesn't med discharge them, they'll rehab the broken leg. Would you have liked the option of remaining within the army and seeing if you could rehab for one of a better word, your post-traumatic stress? Because I've seen a lot of people have issues. and then overcome them with the right routine, the right... And people say, well, you can't keep a routine going on deployment. Well, you can if one of the parts of that routine is not drinking or, you know,

SPEAKER_00 1:36:29

things like that. If you look at me now, compared to where I was, can that be treated, stabilised is probably a better word, so that you can fucking crack on and live a normal life? 100%, because that's what I'm doing now.

UNKNOWN 1:36:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:45

But in order to do that, the treatment in the first place has got to be first class and good enough to be able to get somebody to that point, if you get what I mean. And the military don't have that. And unfortunately, it falls on a lot of charities to pick up the pieces once they're gone.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:09

Let's say in theory, though, if the army had said to you, look, we're going to give this... We're going to downgrade you onto sick pay or whatever like that. You're not going to be without a roof over your head, so you don't have to stress about that. And we'll put you through the treatment. So let's just say that they had a decent treatment program. Would you have liked the option of staying in the army?

SPEAKER_00 1:37:29

At that time, in that mindset, I was glad that they made the decision to fucking MD me. 100%. 100%, yeah. Yeah. Would I go back in the army now? Fucking no chance. But if I was to how I am now, back at that time, I maybe would have thought, but mate, I was fucking more than happy at that time. I was done. I was lost, mate. I was a fucking lost soul. It's not that I didn't, it's not that I wanted to fucking kill myself or anything like that at all. I just didn't care if I fucking lived or died. Do you know what I mean? That's the point that I'd fucking got to. So, yeah, I had no desire of them saying, yeah, we're going to fucking rehab you, do this. You can fucking go back. I was happy that they made that decision for me.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:29

And then what happened when you got out?

SPEAKER_00 1:38:31

So I went through the DCMH package of treatment and done something called EMDR. Don't know what it stands for. It's basically a form of treatment which helps with PTSD. And I had a therapist. And I had like 10 months of this. We got to a point where I didn't build that rapport with my therapist. She was very invasive. She got very close to me, like right in my fucking face. She'd tap on my knees with her hands and like... Her legs would be touching mine. It's very invasive in there. So straight away, I was like, fucking hell. But I was like, this has got to work. It's treatment. Do you know what I mean? Let's just go with the flow. A month went by and I was like, this is fucking bullshit. This isn't fucking working. Two months go by and then I start questioning. This has got to be me. Do you know what I mean? The issue has got to be with me as to why this fucking treatment isn't fucking working. It's not working. It's... You know, this treatment clearly fucking works because otherwise we wouldn't do it. So when I started lying, didn't I? I thought if I pretend that it fucking works and I can lie about it, then I'll just tell her that it's fucking working, just go through the motions and stuff like that. Yeah, and that went on for about four months, five months. In the end, mate, I ended up... It wasn't fucking working. at all. I was no fucking better. In fact, I was worse. My sleep was fucking even worse. Couldn't give a shit about life. Fucking constantly, constantly drinking. I took myself to a bridge here in Basingstoke and I was drinking. I bought all the Jack Daniels in the car and I stood on the end of the bridge. This is all in the book. And I remember I stood there And I was watching cars and lorries come past. I remember thinking it's probably going to take me about a second and a half to fall from when I jumped to get down. So where's a second and a half for where that car fucking is so that it's just going to hit me and just fucking kill me. Because the last thing I like what I don't want to do. I don't want to die painfully. I don't want to hit the floor, survive, look up and see a fucking car come at me. Do you know what I mean? It's just very intrusive thoughts. I don't know why I stepped off. I don't remember. I very vividly remember being stood on the bridge. I don't really remember stepping off of a bridge. And then that was it. I was like, I just need to fucking go and speak to somebody. So I went to the hospital and they ended up sectioning me and putting me in a place called Parklands, which is a fucking mental health Institute. So I was in this fucking mental health Institute fucking sectioned for six weeks. Just basically fed drugs every day. Still serving at this point, by the way. Like, still serving. The military never came out to see me once. Not once when I was in fucking Parklands. I had no welfare officer, no CO, no nobody. Nobody fucking come out to see me, mate. And I was in this fucking psychiatric ward. And it sounds really fucking bad because everybody in there has got their own fucking issues. And I completely understand that. And everyone's issues are just as bad for everybody that's going through them, no matter what they are. Yeah. But I was with fucking people who to me were fucking tapped in the head. Civilians, all civilians, not fucking military. So this is an NHS hospital. I had a fucking guy who introduced himself to me every single day, four or five times a day, because he couldn't fucking remember. They sat you in the same place in the canteen. And I had this fucking woman sat next to me, like, dribbling from her mouth, but poking my mash with her finger. And I had fucking women screaming and banging on doors, shouting, my husband stole my corduroy jeans. And her fucking husband wasn't even here. Her husband had fucking died. And Everybody was just fucking, you had to go and join this happy queue mate in the morning and at night and you're just in a line and you go up to the counter and they just give you your drugs that you fucking take and you're just fucking spacious. Mate, it's fucking madness. Fucking madness it is. I had to lie. I had to lie again, mate, to get out of it. I had to pretend to take my fucking medicine because every week you had this board. You'd go and sit there. They'd ask you how you were feeling. What's your plans for when you get out? How have you been feeling over the last week? Do you have any suicidal intentions? Do you have any of this? And they'll be having this fucking discussion with you. And they basically give you marks out of 10, for example, or whatever it may be, or fucking A, B, C, and D. And then they all come together. And then at the end, compare the fucking notes as to whether you're good to go back out into the community. And every single week, you're not, you're not good to go out. You're not good to go out. You're not good to go out. But I was going to these meetings and I was having these fucking discussions with them while I was fucking high on fucking diazepam and all of these other things, all of these other fucking drugs that were attacking me. So obviously I wasn't going to fucking be able to answer them clearly. They didn't understand what I was going through because granted, I didn't feel like I could tell them because they're not going to understand that the end of the day being NHS and being civics, do you know what I mean?

UNKNOWN 1:44:18

Um,

SPEAKER_00 1:44:19

After, like, five weeks, I was like, I'm just going to fucking pretend to take these medications so that when I go down to this fucking board meeting, I can actually lie and actually hold a conversation without slurring my words and fucking dribbling and everything else. And they managed to get out of there. My fucking treatment ended with a military mate, and then I was out in fucking City Street. So basically, I had no fucking treatment at all. And then it was a case of, fuck, what do I do now? Set up my business. And it was one of them where if I just throw myself into something so much and keep myself so fucking busy, I won't be able to get stressed out with anything. I've got no room for anything else. So that's what I've done. But again, you're just fucking running on empty all the time. talk about this in my book, like you've got a mental glass and that mental glass can only get so full and then anything can then just fucking tip it over the edge. And it was 2018. I think it was 2017. I don't know. I was taking diazepam. I'd been through so many different medications, mate, that they'd put me on sertraline, which fucked with my sex life. It couldn't come when I was having sex. It was fucking frustrating. So then that fucking gets you down because you fucking then got limp dick. You can't even get it up. Like, you then just feel fucking hungover all day because then you change your medication again. Yeah, and then it got to... I was given diazepam and... wasn't really fucking touching the side so i bought some or some more diazepam from somebody else obviously which isn't you know through prescribed um

SPEAKER_03 1:46:12

and you're also getting kind of made in a bathtub diazepam off like off the street

SPEAKER_00 1:46:20

yeah

SPEAKER_03 1:46:21

yeah um

SPEAKER_00 1:46:23

oh

SPEAKER_03 1:46:23

You're taking like what you've been prescribed and you're topping up with like street diazepam as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:28

Yeah, exactly that mate. Exactly that. So it was just, I was on, I was on metazapine. I was on diazepam. And then I was also fucking buying more diazepam online. It was like 20 milligram tablets or something like that. And mate, it just came to a fucking, it just came, came too much one day. I mean, there's a lot more to it and it's all in the book. Like it's, it's, It's all in there and structured and stuff. But again, I just got to that point one night where I was like, I need a break from this. But now I genuinely don't fucking care if I fucking live or die. In fact, it wasn't even that. I was taking my medication before I went to bed and I was like, I need a fucking better night's sleep. I'm not fucking sleeping. So I'm just going to double on the medication. So then I was like, actually, I 100% definitely want to sleep, so I'm just going to take more. And then it was like, then I had that thought to myself as I genuinely, I don't want to kill myself. But if I don't wake up in the morning, I couldn't give a shit. So then I just emptied all the diets upon me and fuck them all. 90 tablets of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:36

Jesus,

SPEAKER_00 1:47:36

mate. Mate, I had 90 tablets of it and I'd been out drinking. It was actually my birthday. It's actually my birthday. I think I was maybe 31, 32. I don't know. I'm not sure. But the girl that I was seeing at the time, we went out for a meal. Like I said, I had a drinking problem at this point as well. I was just covering everything up with drink. So we went out for a meal, had a few beers on the way back, bought a bottle of wine from the petrol station for some reason. About half 11 at night, mate. And then she came back to my house. And then she was like, I'll see your birthday in with you. So she saw me birthday until midnight. She then went home. I drank that bottle of wine, mate, in half an hour that she was there. And then that's when the tablet and the overdose situation then came about. Yeah, fucking took them all. I don't remember anything after that for three or four days, like three or four days of my life just completely fucking gone. One of the lads came around. In fact, the girl I was seeing came around the next day, called me mate. He came around. They got in touch with combat stress and stuff like that. Combat stress like, well, we can't touch him because he's a risk. We can't take him on and bring him into a sterilized environment where people are getting help when he's an issue. But I'd done some charity work for Combat Stress anyway, so I knew a few people who were there fundraising and stuff. They helped me out massively in the end. They took me on at risk based on that I went to go and see an NHS woman and spoke to her weekly for six months to make sure that I was stable and everything else like that. But in that time that I was overdosed off my head and don't remember anything, mate. I'd literally just gone through another fucking breakup as well, just before, like six months before that, something like that. And I ended up fucking getting arrested. I had trouble with my ex. I got arrested, mate, like four Fridays out of six. I got done for assault police when they came into, I was on, they come in to arrest me. The video, mate, I'll send you the link to the video. I put it up on my social media the other week, spaced out my head on fucking pallium. Don't remember anything. This was the fourth time in six weeks that this same woman had come around to arrest me. My mate was like, he's trucking overdose. He's not fucking with it. And she was like, nah, I've made an assessment. I'm still going to arrest him. I'm going to put him in handcuffs. And I was like, you ain't fucking put him in handcuffs. Like, You've arrested me four times. You've personally arrested me four times. This is the fourth time. You've never put me in handcuffs once. I've never been a problem to you and stuff. I don't remember this. I only know because I've seen the video. And then she was like, no, he's refusing to be arrested. So she called for backup. Two coppers came round within like five minutes, straight into my house. I was sat there on the sofa and they're like, What's the issue? And she was like, oh, this female copper, yeah, he's not letting me put handcuffs on him. And we were like, mate, we're going to fucking put handcuffs on you one way or another. Grabbed my arms and I was like, get the fuck off me. Pushed them off. We both jumped on top of me. I pushed them off me, stood up. Both of them got the CS gas out, mate. CS gas me inside my own house. Yeah, it was fucking mad, mate. It was mad. It was a very fucked up, few years of my fucking life and it's all in the book and that's what the whole book's about like it's not necessarily it's the war that comes with after and how it can make you feel how the depression anxiety everything can get to you and you just lose all mental capacity to do even the simplest things right and end up making the stupidest fucking mistakes and go down like drink problems, steroid problems. Like I was fucking, I'd got myself fucking taking fucking steroids, mate, and just found myself in a fucking deep hole all because of the way that I, all from the knock-on effect, if you get what I mean. I was on a fucking slippery slope. Yeah, it was fucking mad.

SPEAKER_03 1:51:56

That's a fucking understatement, bro. Yeah. But, mate, like, I wish people could see you on camera, mate, because, like, you look so healthy, you look so happy. Well, I'm not telling that story, but in general, like, when we chat. And, you know, it's great to see you on the other side of it, mate. I'm really proud of you, mate, and hope you're really proud of yourself.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:17

Thank you, man. Appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:20

Right, that's enough of the touchy stuff. I really am proud of you, mate. So... Got a few things to kind of ask you. It sounds like this was a case of one thing building up on top of the other, on top of the other, on top of the other, on

SPEAKER_01 1:52:40

top

SPEAKER_03 1:52:40

of the other. Is that fair to say?

SPEAKER_00 1:52:42

100%, mate. It was a situation which I describe this in the book. So everybody's got a mental glass capacity, whatever it may be, bathtub analogy. People call it the bathtub analogy, whatever it is. And every bit of stress in your life goes into that glass. Do you know what I mean? You don't notice it. If your glass is almost empty, you don't even fucking notice it. It's just a bit of a fucking stress. You deal with it, you get on with it, whatever. But that's still in there. Do you know what I mean? Unless you've actually physically fucking dealt with it properly, it's still there. But the next thing will go on top and the next thing will go on top. I think coming back from Afghan, struggling with the whole ptsd oh well in fact for my wife leaving me at first added massively to to that glass then the whole ptsd then situation was the point where it was it just it just made it fucking topple over and as much as i was emptying bits of it it was then filling back up emptying bits of it filling back up and then to the point where it then just fucking overflowed. Once it's overflowed, then you're on a fucking slippery slope then. So then, then it goes, then it goes to drink, fucking drink issue every single day until I stopped drinking, until I stopped drinking 18 months ago. I think I'm like 18 months this week, to be fair. I reckon in the last, since I've left the army and even while I was in the army, I could probably count on two hands how many days I haven't had a drink in two Eight years. Every single day, I had to have a drink. And at first, it was like proper alcoholism. So I'd be drinking bottles of wine of an evening or bottles of vodka or just fucking drinking JD straight port, mate. I drank bottles and bottles of port. As I've been starting to get back, underhand like going through the treatment with combat stress and spent i spent a long time with combat stress enough that made fantastic charity fantastic organization um as i started getting the whole ptsd under control the drinking then wasn't um a drinking problem in the in the amount of volume but it was the fact that i felt like i had to have a drink every day So if I come home from work, I had to have a drink. Might only been one beer, two beer, normally two beers or two glasses of wine or whatever, but I had to have that drink. And if it didn't, it would give me fucking anxiety. But then, yeah, everything then just falls apart. So the whole PTSD, then drinking, then, you know, that leads to... problems at home so my fucking second marriage then fell apart and I say fell apart mate I walked out on my wife and stepkids without even fucking telling them I was leaving like proper I don't even know if you can say like proper cuntish do you know what I mean like I was in that mentality where I didn't even tell them I was leaving mate I just walked out with lots of issues there but was but it's nothing nothing but a normal relationship like couldn't survive but I just I was in that of I'm just going don't care and I had that fuck it mentality like and then that then led to the whole that then caused like a bit of split up bit of like so then it then started going down like police situation she'd get me done for like harassing her but like she invited me round to her house I went round and then she called the police and said that I wasn't welcoming her then she'd say that I was stalking her on the way to school but her school was like 100 metres away from where the house was that I'd moved to. Bootcamp UK, the brand which I... You know, my bootcamp brand is franchised. It's franchised. So I've got Bootcamp UK, Basingstock, etc. But there's also other ones across the country. One of them followed her on Instagram. So she rang the police and said that it's harassment. So then I had something called a non-molestation order put against me. Mate, that's the fucking worst thing ever. Like... You're breaching non-molestation order no matter what. And it could just be, I could have just drove past her and she could have said that I was, she thought I was stalking her. They come out and arrest you and we've got to investigate it. Mate, it was fucking horrendous. It all went to court anyway. And in the end, I had like this non-molestation order taken away from me because it wasn't what it was. It wasn't what it was being done. um said that it was there was you know it was basically just a relationship that had ended and i'd just gone very bitter and very very toxic um but then during that whole process is when the police then came around when i took the step um took her the diazepam took the overdose they come around to arrest me for something which she'd reported me for I got found not guilty of what she reported me for, but then I got further arrested for assaulting two police officers after they just CS gassed me and stuff. So then I was on bail then for nine months. So when I was on bail, I got found fucking not guilty for assault of police officers, but guilty for resisting arrest. And it made me fucking... My life just spiraled massively out of control. from not dealing with the initial problems and the ptsd at the beginning it had such a knock-on effect and that's what that's what i tried to write about in the book it's not necessarily ptsd you know i mean anybody it could be anything for anybody it could be ptsd but it could be could be depression it could be anxiety it could be whatever but if you don't deal with that initial situation that initial problem get help for it it can very easily take over your life you can start making decisions making judgment like your judge your judgment can go completely. You can then find yourself in fucking stupid situations which you wouldn't normally find yourself in. Losing relationships, losing friends, going down drinks, going down drugs. And it's all just a fucking massive knock-on effect.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:56

And during all this time, did you ever receive a phone call or anything more from the army to see how you were getting on after you'd been medically discharged for PTSD?

SPEAKER_00 1:59:07

Nah, mate, I got medically discharged on Remembrance Day 2016, and I've never heard from them since.

SPEAKER_03 1:59:20

Do you think that the fact that you kind of came back and then were never with the group of lads again, do you think that contributed to you not being able to properly decompress? Because, I mean, it's not like there's a guarantee of decompression anyway, but you know what, in World War II, You finished a campaign in, let's say, Germany. You spend a year or two more with lads on occupation duties than you're brought back. Or the lads coming back from Burma are spending months on a troop ship together, talking, you know, working things out. And apparently that helped a lot. So do you think that the fact that you work with the lads was a contributive factor? Is that something you kind of look back on or thought

SPEAKER_00 1:59:59

about? Mate, yeah, I reckon so because it's a simple case of, it's a simple saying, isn't it? Talking helps. Fucking helps. I come back from Afghan. I wasn't with them lads. We went straight on a PTI course. So I'm obviously not going to fucking speak about fucking Afghan there. Do you know what I mean? Then come back from that. Didn't really want to speak to the lads in the fucking workshop from the cat badge that I was. I'm sorry, with the Rimi lads that I was. I was like, fuck this. I genuinely don't want to fucking... you're never even deployed, do you know what I mean? You're fucking biffed up, you're fucking downgraded, you're fat and you're fucking leaving. I generally couldn't give a shit about how good the conversations that they were fucking having. And then it was straight then to a phase two establishment. They didn't fucking obviously, didn't get to decompress at all with any of the lads. Granted, I only knew him really for seven months.

SPEAKER_03 2:00:54

That's it. When you're in that situation, get to know someone very well in that amount of time. Yeah, 100%. 100%. What effect, if any, did the collapse of Afghanistan and the Taliban taking over have on you?

SPEAKER_00 2:01:14

Mate, I was in Spain at the time with my wife. And I remember being sat in her parents' house. They had a place out in Spain, sat there watching it. And for days, mate, it was... I don't think I was pissed off. I don't think I was angry because I genuinely felt lost about what to think. What I did think was, what a fucking waste of time. What the fuck was all this for? Genuinely, like, the fuck's the point? Like, what was the point in all of that? And then the more I watched it, I felt myself getting fucking, you know, wound up by the situation. So anything like that for me, it's like... I just have to fucking put it in the box because otherwise I'm going to start fucking, you start analysing, do you know what I mean? You'll start analysing, you'll get to a point and start analysing the fucking tactics of the way we fucking came out. Like, why the fuck did he give away fucking background? Do you know what I mean? Like, why did we do this? Why did

SPEAKER_03 2:02:18

we do that? We haven't got another two hours to go into that.

SPEAKER_00 2:02:21

Exactly, mate. It would fucking, it would drive me mad. I remember, I remember feeling disappointed, probably disappointed is the word, That's a fucking strong word as well, isn't it? Disappointed. Like, it's, yeah, it's fucking, it's felt pointless, mate. What a fucking waste of time, what a waste of lives.

SPEAKER_03 2:02:47

Yeah, unfortunately, mate. I do want to finish on a positive note because, you know, your life is on a positive note. You've done this book, you've put in there the bad, you've put in there what's helped you come out on the other side. What else can you tell us about it and where can people get it?

SPEAKER_00 2:03:07

So the book's on... You can get it on Amazon. It's on my social medias as well. So if you just type in Gary Kennedy or Gaz Kennedy, The Silent War, it's on there. 100% of royalties, 100% of royalties is going to combat stress. Everything's going to combat stress. I feel like I owe them a lot. They've took me from like... not wanting to fucking be here, trying to fucking take my own life with fucking diazepam and whatever other fucking drugs to actually where I am now. The least that I feel I can do is at least try to pay them back what it's cost them to put me through treatment, if you get what I mean. That's the fucking minimum that I can do. So yeah, every single penny is going to them. It's not a war story. There is obviously a couple of incidents in there that we've discussed tonight in Afghan. It's also like what Afghan actually taught me. So like the positives that I took away from the army, Afghan, like how living out there, like it's been also got all the negatives in there about how I fucked up my family, how I walked out on my family, how I ended up fucking getting arrested, being on bail for nine months, fucking drink problems. But then it's also then got the outcomes of that, like, I'm now sober for 18 months. I've got a new wife who's fucking amazing. I've got, yeah, I've got a fucking, mate, where my life is now, if in five, six years back, somebody had told me this would be my life now, not even like the things that I've got, just the way that I'm feeling and everything else like that, I'd be like, fucking no chance. But I, yeah, it's unreal. It's unreal.

SPEAKER_03 2:04:59

Yeah, and I'll make sure that everything's linked down in the show notes as well, mate. What is the main positive that you took out of Afghan?

SPEAKER_00 2:05:09

I think the main positive that I took out from Afghan... Mate, that's a fucking difficult question. All right,

SPEAKER_03 2:05:17

well, just give us one, mate, and people can read the book for the others.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:22

Oh, you mean that's in the book?

SPEAKER_03 2:05:25

Well, yeah, just like a positive that you took away from it.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:28

It's just about improvisation, adaptation, stuff like that. I didn't manage it very well, although I had the tools to be able to manage it there. Do you know what I mean? I had the tools within me, but I didn't realize that I had them. And a lot of the tools that I've used from it, I've gained from the army and Afghanistan itself. I've met some fucking real good blokes from there. Some real good experiences and some real fucking shit experiences. Yeah, it's a fucking whirlwind in one package, mate. It's good. It's a

SPEAKER_03 2:06:13

story to tell. Fucking 100%, mate. And I think you're dead right, mate. The cause of a lot of these problems can be the cure and, you know, but it's like you said, it's just kind of realizing what you went through and how difficult that was, but you overcame it and then applying that to everything else. But mate, it's been great talking to you, mate. It's been great seeing you as well. I wish I'd done a video with this so people could see. Yeah. I mean, your hair's flowing, mate. You're still looking like a PTI, mate. Mate,

SPEAKER_00 2:06:46

he's absolutely 40 years old now. Getting up close to 40, man. I feel it as well. I feel it.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:52

Well, mate, thanks so much for today. I've got one more question to kind of finish on, kind of ask everyone. Considering everything that's happened, mate, would you do it all again?

SPEAKER_00 2:07:06

Mate, where I am now, I wouldn't have got to where I am now if all of that hadn't have happened. Everything had to have happened for me to be where I am now. Wouldn't change it. Wouldn't change it. I'd have to go through it the same. Do you know what I mean? But there's the thing. No matter how hard things get, and this is very fucking cliche, but it's fucking so true. No matter how hard things get, you just keep working, keep pushing, and just have that mentality to just get through the day. Get through the day. Do the best you can in that day. And then just keep repeating the next day, get through that day. But again, just constantly try to do your best. And it will be small marginal gains that you don't even fucking realize. But you look back in three months time to where you were three months before and I guarantee there's a big fucking difference. I look back now, 18 months ago from when I stopped drinking, there's a fucking huge difference. But I haven't noticed that fucking difference come at me on a day to day basis.

SPEAKER_03 2:08:11

Mate, I usually do an outro after the podcast, but I want those words to stay with everyone. So I'm going to say thank you to you. Thank you to the audience for listening and take care of each other. Take care of yourselves. Spread the love.

SPEAKER_00 2:08:23

Yes, appreciate that, mate. Thank you very much.