Beyond the Reformer

The Wild West of Pilates: Why Teaching Standards Are Letting Everyone Down with Katie Nankivell

• Nic Lenny

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0:00 | 54:04

"There is a lot of money-hungry people chasing trends with a lack of moral compass and ethics behind them."

The Pilates industry is growing fast - but not always in the right direction. In this episode, Nic is joined by Katie, founder of Pilates Delivered, an Amsterdam-based at-home and private Pilates service. Katie trained comprehensively with Polestar Pilates and has been teaching for over a decade across private clients, studios, and her own business.

They get straight into the hard conversation: what's actually happening with teaching standards right now, why weekend certifications are producing a generation of teachers who only know the choreography, and why loving Pilates does not make someone qualified to teach it.

They also explore what separates good teachers from great ones - from personality and people skills to the ability to read a body, adapt on the spot, and never stop learning. Katie shares how expanding into sound healing, Reiki, fascia, and nervous system work has made her a more intuitive, holistic teacher - and why Pilates has always been about the whole person.

And on the business side, Katie talks candidly about building a sustainable private practice from scratch in a new city, setting boundaries with clients, pricing at a premium, and designing a career entirely on her own terms.

Timestamps

00:00 Intro to Katie

00:21 What's really happening in the Pilates industry right now

01:47 Weekend certifications and the choreography problem

06:17 Katie's journey into Pilates and why she chose Polestar

10:13 Building Pilates Delivered: at-home Pilates in Amsterdam

13:47 What clients actually want — and what keeps them coming back

18:55 Expanding beyond Pilates: sound healing, Reiki, and fascia work

23:17 How holistic training makes you a more intuitive teacher

26:57 Pilates and wellness as complementary — not competing

32:35 What actually makes a great Pilates teacher

37:09 Just because you love Pilates doesn't mean you should teach it

39:29 Authenticity, personality, and being exactly who you are

44:04 Building a sustainable career outside the studio model

49:02 Quick-fire questions

50:26 Where to find Katie


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SPEAKER_02

Coming up on this week's episode of Beyond the Reformer. Today I'm joined by Katie Mackabell. Do you think we're producing teachers too quickly?

SPEAKER_00

There is a lot of money, hungry people chasing trends with a lack of moral compass and ethics behind them. If you're fast tracking someone to do a weekend sport, I'm unsure how someone can feel confident to teach another human being how to move their body in accordance with the Pilates method. For me, it's mind-boggling. I have been teaching Pilates for 10 years, and I'm still a student. There is so much me to learn. I still feel like such a baby. Authenticity comes at the cost of perhaps not being liked by everyone. I have to be exactly who I am, and I teach exactly how I like to teach, and the right client love my lessons.

SPEAKER_02

This was such an interesting conversation because Katie brings a perspective that I think many teachers will really connect with right now. Originally from Australia and now based in Amsterdam, she's built a very intentional career around high-quality teaching, private wellness, and helping people feel more connected to their bodies in a world that often feels really overstimulated. We talk about the current state of Pilates teacher training, what she feels is missing in the industry right now, why so many teachers are feeling burnt out, and how her work has evolved beyond Pilates into broader wellness practices. Before we get going into today's conversation, I ask every week, but I'd be really grateful. If you are enjoying these episodes, please take a moment to like, follow, or subscribe wherever you're listening. You can also watch it on YouTube, on Spotify. It genuinely helps the podcast to grow and allows me to keep bringing you these conversations. Okay, let's get into today's conversation with Katie. Katie, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast this week. Thank you. Thank you for having me. You well, I found you because you're you've been quite open on your concerns around the teaching standards that are out there right now. I found you on Instagram talking about this. What do you think is happening in the Pilates industry right now as you see it?

SPEAKER_00

I think that there is a lot of money-hungry people chasing trends with a lack of moral compass and ethics behind them. So people who want to create a Pilates studio to follow the trends, creating studios and allowing people to teach people with a lack of education, and that's creating this wild west kind of vibe in the industry, which creates a merade of problems.

SPEAKER_02

Do you think we're producing teachers too quickly? Because it feels like that's the challenge, isn't it? You've got these brands opening, they need to get teachers in there.

SPEAKER_00

Is that what you're seeing? 100%. I think that there's a spike in demand of Pilates, but a lack of Pilates teachers with great education. So a lot of studios are creating their own education to fast track getting teachers to fill lessons for clients. But that has has a many, many problems associated with it in terms of if you're fast tracking someone to do a weekend course, I'm unsure how someone can feel confident to teach another human being how to move their body in accordance with the Pilates method. For me, it's mind-boggling.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and I I see it too. And it's um I I've sat with this a lot myself and thought, well, what are they teaching then? You know, what if you're gonna do a course that is two weekends long, a weekend long, it has to just be the choreography. Would you agree? Like it's almost like you're learning a set of moves from a purely movement, like choreography perspective. And do you feel like that's very different to the kind of teacher that you were trained to be?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, a hundred percent. I I mean I was educated with Polestar Pilates. First, I did mat work with Polestar in Australia, in in Adelaide and Melbourne, between the two. And I had some fantastic teachers who had, you know, 20, 30 years of experience and were physiotherapists and chiropractors and osteopaths themselves. So they had such a depth of knowledge of human movement and anatomy. And I'm the type of girl who wants to do the best of the best education. So I really did my research to see what sort of education would suit me personally. Everyone's going to be different, of course. But I think that a lot of these younger, newer studios who are driven by money and people who have no background in human movement or uh Pilates, teaching people the choreography and perhaps a very basic breath without the knowledge of the anatomy and for me especially, the why are we doing this? Yeah. Why am I teaching this exercise? What is my benefit? And how can I then explain that to my client so they then understand why they're doing something? I think the why is not taught either.

SPEAKER_02

I was years, this is years ago, but I was interviewing a potential new teacher and I got them to teach me a private. And they started off and they had this great chat with me about, you know, what was going on in my body and what did I see and what did I want to wear with? I was like, great, this is what I want to see from someone. And then they delivered a small session that literally had nothing to do with what I said. And so at the end I just sort of said to them, Oh, like out of curiosity, why did you pick the exercises that you chose? And they said, because that's what I had planned beforehand. I said, So why did you ask me what I wanted? And I think you're right. And this person, by the way, had done, you know, not one this was years ago, so it wasn't one of the kind of short Wild Wild West courses that we're seeing. But I think I'm also pole-star trained. And so I think we were just very lucky in that the why is a big part of it. Like, what is this about? Why would I give this to you? Do you see, Katie, that there's any solution to this problem? Because I ask some of the greats on this podcast, and it feels like this is a very difficult problem to solve.

SPEAKER_00

I I think it's difficult because it also comes down to human nature and someone's ability to have A, common sense and B, discernment in how and why they would apply a certain Pilates exercise. And if you're not a person who can apply and problem solve and apply your critical thinking across the Pilates method, you're always probably going to be stuck teaching within that box of what you learned and not looking at the person and the bodies that are in front of you. And I think that comes with time and experience, the time in how I'm educated, the time that it takes me to undertake my education, and then the time that it takes me on the ground in real life, teaching real bodies, and then learning and having this mindset of being an all-time continuous student, right? I have been teaching Pilates for 10 years. I've been doing Pilates in my own body and practicing Pilates for 12 years, and I'm still a student. There is so much for me to learn. I still feel like such a baby. But I think that that mindset helps me to stay flexible and agile in my mind of how I apply and use my discernment with the Pilates information that I build and learn over the over the years.

SPEAKER_02

So tell me a little bit then, Katie, about your journey into becoming a Pilates teacher. Where did that start? And you know, what kind of went on before that and led you to make this decision?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, funny, I never knew what Pilates was. Um, I'm from Australia originally. I'm living in Amsterdam now for nine years. And back in the day, I was marketing manager at an architecture and design firm in Melbourne. So I was a corporate girl doing my thing, you know. But because I was sitting down a lot, I got a sore lower back and it especially flared up around my cycle, around my period. And I thought, this doesn't feel normal. I'm 24. I shouldn't have low back pain. But because I was sitting down a lot and I was doing haphazard workouts, random bits and bobs, and I wasn't very connected to my body, especially not my breathing. And a girlfriend of mine said, Katie, why don't you try Pilates? And I said, What the hell is Pilates? I don't know what that is. So then I got into Pilates at a studio in Melbourne, and with 12 weeks or of continuous practice a couple of times a week, my low back pain kind of went away and evaporated. And then I thought, I love this method so much. It's exactly the method that I want to share with people. Like people more people should know about this because it felt very easy, like very simple exercises, but had huge impact.

SPEAKER_02

And what led you then from Australia to Amsterdam, where you now are?

SPEAKER_00

I'm a wild one. I want to live a thousand lives in one life. I love to have fun and have adventure, and I always wanted to live abroad. So it's a pretty bad reason for wanting to move to Amsterdam, but I knew that I could integrate speaking English very well. And I didn't want to do London because all the other Aussies are there, and I wanted to be this, you know, unique little kangaroo bouncing around. And I moved to Amsterdam because there was a Polestar Pilates course, the comprehensive full studio being uh taught uh in the time frame that I wanted. And I said, fabulous, that's that's me, I'm gonna go. And then I got sucked in nine years later, still here.

SPEAKER_02

And what drew you to Polestar? Like you talked about how you did your research, but I think this is a question I get asked. Like, how does one pick a teacher training program? It's hard, I think, out there to really understand. Even if you looked at the the main global ones, they're very different. Then you've got some local ones setting up, some good, some not so good. Like it's it's hard, isn't it? But what kind of drew you into Polestar specifically?

SPEAKER_00

What drew me into Polestar specifically is I started to research the industry and I learned about the PMA and the kind of biggest schools. And then I looked at the schools that were in Melbourne at the time and in the time frame that I was looking for, and I shortlisted shortlisted a few. So I think that there was Basi and Stott that I was also looking at as well. And I decided to go to some lessons within those schools and feel and experience firsthand the teaching from educators from those schools, and then I decided that what felt best for me in my body, in how I learn and understand movement. So I went with Polestar.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And I think that's such a great piece of advice, actually, to go and spend time working with teachers who are from these schools because they are a lot different. And that's interesting, isn't it? Like, even though I think we'd all agree they're they're all great training institutions, they're worldwide, they're globally recognized. There's a lot that would feel the same. The style is quite different. So that's I think that's that's what I always advise people to do as well. Go and spend some time being with those kind of teachers and seeing what works best for you. Absolutely. Tell me a little bit about your brand, then, Katie. Pilates delivered. So you you did your mat training. Were you working then? At some point, obviously, you decided to move to Amsterdam. Like, tell me a little bit about that and how your own brand came about.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so I finished my mat training with Polestar in Melbourne and I started working at an osteopath clinic with their clients, teaching Pilates on the weekends, just mat. And I really loved that. I learned under some great educators there. Then I wanted to move abroad. I saw the Polestar course being taught in Amsterdam, and I decided to basically sell everything I own and move to Amsterdam. I got a tourist visa for a year so that I could undertake the study. And then I just fell in love with Amsterdam and I thought, well, there's not much Pilates here, but I I'm a type of person who I don't like to be bogged down or told a lot what to do or when I can do something. So I really wanted to work for myself. So I thought, why don't I teach people Pilates at their homes in Amsterdam and ride my bicycle around? So then I created Pilates Delivered, which I look, I don't love the name anymore, but it is what it is. I like it. It's cool. Yeah. It's like it's different to what's out there.

SPEAKER_02

And then when I was like researching it, I was like, oh, and then this is, I mean, literally, that's what you do. You deliver Pilates. It's great.

SPEAKER_00

Literally. So basically, for the past eight years, I've been riding my bicycle around Amsterdam and teaching people on location in their home or in their business. So a lot of my clients, I will teach teach a math lesson, but a handful of my clients have their own reformer or they have their own chair, and I will teach those on those equipment. But I also hire a private studio as well, which has the full trapeze table, chair, ladder barrel, etc., for clients who want the full studio experience in a private capacity.

SPEAKER_02

So when you first moved, you know, you're in a new city, you haven't got necessarily a load of connections there. Like, how does one start finding clients, Katie, and making it sustainable?

SPEAKER_00

Well, listen, when I go somewhere new, I'm the type of girl that just hits the ground running. I have my eyes on the prize and I know what I want to do. So I figured out where the areas were in Amsterdam that had a higher kind of level of person client, so where the wealthy kind of clients live and go out to eat. So I had an Instagram and I found all the places that they would frequent. I started following all the kind of local-looking mummies and I started a brand and a website, and then I contacted them and said, hey, I'm from Australia. I've just started a at-home Pilates service. Would you like a free lesson? And I gave out a couple of weeks of free lessons. I think I sent over a hundred messages, got 50 responses, ended up giving 10 free lessons. And out of those 10 free lessons, I got featured in two blogs and Instagrams online, and then two magazines as well had picked up the story via one of my clients, my original clients, who was kind of someone a bit semi-famous here. And then it just snowballed. It went one for one, it went word of mouth. And the great thing is about my business, I have clients that are still with me after eight years. So my client retention is very high. People want to get in with me, they want their routine, and then they stay with it. And I love that because I love the deep connection you can build with your client and you can see their growth over time.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, I love that. I mean, I love it. I just think if you love people, this is a great job. You know, I love people, I love and and your private clients you get to know so well. So, you know, you're you've built this business bringing Pilates to people's homes and teaching privately. What do you see that people are typically wanting? And have you seen that shift in your time? Like you sort of said that when you started that there wasn't much Pilates out there in Amsterdam, has that shifted as well and has that shifted how people feel about this?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, I think people, the everyday person doesn't really know what they want in terms of Pilates, but they know what they want in terms of feeling. And most people want to feel free in their body, at ease in their body, and have minimal discomfort. We want to avoid as much pain as possible, right? So people want to have minimal discomfort. They want to feel fit, strong, and kind of like they've got this pep in their step. And that is what I bring to my Pilates. I don't kind of work with benchmarks of, oh, aesthetic goals. Let's get a six-pack, let's do this. And that's a lovely cherry on top. But I tend to work with people who want to feel better, stronger, more mobile, and have this zest in their step, right? And most of my clients actually are older. I teach people that are 40 to 70, even 80. And I love working with older, more mature clients. They tend to be, in my experience, more dedicated, more interested in learning about their body, and they have the devotion to want to feel better, and they know that their investment in their body and the time investment over time is what's going to pay off.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I agree. I work with a lot of that kind of age group as well, and they very much they're driven by very deep-rooted goals, which are around feeling good. And that's Pilates works so well for that. And, you know, I always think if if you can help, exactly as you said, if you can help someone feel good and feel ease in their body. How do you think then, you know, you mentioned you've had clients throughout this period, lots of long-term clients. What makes a client want to stay a long time with a teacher? Do you think?

SPEAKER_00

I think personality click. I think you have to get along with the person. And in the beginning, I would take on clients that perhaps I didn't like on a personal level. And over the years, I've become more confident in my teaching and allowing the people that I don't like personally to float out of my aura and onto another Pilates teacher that can teach them well. And the people who you connect with on a personal level stay with you because then there's this mutual respect, this mutual trust. And also I'm reliable. I'm the most hardworking, reliable Aussie girl. If I say I'm gonna do something or be there, I'm gonna be there. I show up on time, I never cancel, almost never cancel unless I'm unwell. And I deliver a certain level of Pilates every time to my clients, and they love consistency and they like the way that I teach. Also, it's a luxury having me come to your home. I get it. I want to hire me too for myself, but I can't right now. Gotta clone me.

SPEAKER_02

I know, I'd love that. I was like, come on to live at Pilates at my house. Um, but I think it's it's a good point that you make, Katie, as well. Around we don't have to be a person for everybody. Like people buy into people, don't they? And at the studio, when I, you know, expanded the studio, I was like, I don't want a studio full of teachers that are clones of me. You want people to, I think a personality is important, but every, you know, people have different personalities and people buy into people. So, and I'm sure there's teachers listening to this where, you know, we've all been there where you've got the client that just feels really hard work and you don't really resonate with them. And it's definitely a challenge, isn't it, to try and think about how do you kindly try and pass them on with some grace and help them find a person who you know actually is going to work better for them.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that comes with maturity in your own business. It comes with self-confidence and being able to back yourself and have the hard conversations. Sometimes I, if I if I'm not resonating with the client and it's draining my energy because it's my hour too, it's my time, it's my energy, it's my effort. And I want that to be reciprocal and I want it to feel like a really lovely relationship where we're both mutually experiencing something positive. And if it's not feeling like that for me, I will just suggest to the client that I can't help them meet their needs and I don't have the skill set to help them particularly. And I will suggest certain studios or other teachers that they could connect with that could help them reach their personal goals. So I never make it personal about personality, I more make it about my skill set, unable to help them. And it's not wrong either.

SPEAKER_02

And I know that you've now expanded your work beyond Pilates looking at sound healing, Reiki, fascia work. Was that important to you? Were you seeing that clients needed those extra kind of pieces adding into their wellness routines? Yes and no.

SPEAKER_00

I am the person, like I said before, I want to live a thousand lives in one life. I'm very interested in learning. I've got learning very high in my strengths. I like to add knowledge to my skill set and my tool belt a lot. So, but I did find exactly like Pilates is an amazing movement method, but it's also got its blind spots as well. And we're not just this two-dimensional being who needs movement, and that's going to suffice us in our wellness goals. So having a spiritual aspect and more a metaphysical aspect and other aspects in wellness felt more holistic and wholesome for me to be able to then deliver from a multi angled place to help people reach that feeling that I was talking about before. I just want to help people feel good and I want to learn as many things as possible. That I can then deliver to this person with my discernment when needed.

SPEAKER_02

And was Pilates kind of the first step into this world? Because it was for me. I'm also a Reiki master like you. I wondered like what kind of came first. Like, you know, were you because I th I often feel like Pilates was the thing that opened me up and got me to notice myself and think about well-being in a very different way to how I'd been educated about it before, which was like beat yourself at the gym. And suddenly I was like, that did not make me feel good. And actually slowing down made me feel good. And I was very interested in the energetic work. I, in the corporate world, I had regularly got quite burnt out, not from a burnout perspective, but from being energetically drained from other people. I now realize I think a lot of Pilates teachers are empaths because we're good at feeling and noticing other people. And that the it's a gift, but it's a curse because you will accidentally pick up other people's energy and carry it. So that for me was why I then got interested in Reiki. I was like, I want to understand more about the world of energy. And but I wonder what your story is around, you know, and and I also do quite a bit of sound healing myself. I've debated doing the teacher training, but I don't have enough time. So I'm just kind of interested, Katie. You know, was it similar for you? Was there kind of reasons in your own self that drew you into these things, or was it more from a you just wanted to learn about this world?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, definitely Pilates was the gateway into being connected to myself and understanding more about my feeling and my energy and my body. But I've always been a bit of a woo-woo girl. I've always really been into the moon and the stars and you know, numerology and astrology and all the ologies. And then Pilates got me more connected to my body, and then it felt, okay, well, how can I connect the metaphysical with the physical? How can I tie together my sense of spirituality with my sense of connected to this connectedness to this realm as well? And yeah, it definitely, and also my own healing journey as well. I've have been through many, many lifetimes of difficulties in my life, and I've had to navigate a lot of personal difficulties in my life, and I just feel that desire to want to overcome and develop myself was also a driving factor of then connecting the body and the spirit together, and that drew me to not only Reiki or sound healing, but also guided meditation and guided meditation, also lymphatic work, breath work, nervous system work that I did multiple courses with Dr. Perry Nicholson from Stop Chasing Pain on his really a great thought leader in in the lymphatic system space. So yeah, that's those were my driving factors.

SPEAKER_02

And do you think sort of having all those extra strings tubo as such could make you a better Pilates teacher?

SPEAKER_00

That's a great question. I I I do think so, yes, because I can I I'm very attuned to people's energies and and and their emotions, and I can sense and feel things. And some days I come to my client's house, and I know that they don't openly say that they're not feeling great, or they've got their period, or they've got something going on, but I can sense it, and then I will apply a lesson that seems most nourishing and beneficial to where they're at on that specific day. And obviously, after eight years of teaching many of my clients, they do communicate with me and I can ask, but especially in the beginning with a new client, I don't always want to address someone's pain and bring up a P word or a T-word trauma pain. I'd rather just kind of deliver a beautiful experience for them. And then every time after the lesson, I say, oh, I feel so much better. And that is the moment for me I go, oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_02

And I think the energy of this work is a really important piece that many trainings are missing. It's part of Polestar's trainings. I've written my own training, it's in my training. I've gone I've gone a bit deeper again because a bit like you, I'd had lots of these experiences. And I think that, you know, and and talking to lots of people on the podcast as well, often the word intuition comes up, doesn't it? This idea that you just get a sense, whether you know it or not, of this is what I think people need or this is what I think I need to do. So I do I think it's interesting. Do you see in the work that you're doing out there, Katie, do you see people needing to look at wellness a bit more, a bit more of a rounded wellness? You know, they're coming to you for Pilates. So I often think that people came to me for Pilates, but then they also got a little bit opened up and you're able to sprinkle in some ideas of like, have you tried this? Have you looked at this? Or I've had clients in the past who said, Can you do half an hour of Reiki and half an hour of Pilates on me? I'm like, if that's what you want, that's fine. And then they'd say, God, this makes me feel so good. And I did think for a while I was like, you know, if I had a bit more capacity, I think that's actually a great session to do. But yeah, I just wondered like, are you seeing that with your clients? That, you know, it's just it's a busy, stressful world these days. And it's landing in people's nervous systems.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, a hundred percent. And I work with a lot of women as well, and they're spread thin across all of the hats that they have to wear. They're a mother, they're a CEO, they're a best friend, a daughter, a sister, they're a house manager, an Uber driver, you know, they're they're wearing all these hats. So if I can come in to their home and deliver them an hour that is tailored to them with Pilates or any of the other tools I have, and at the end of that lesson, they say, Hey, I feel great, that is such a win for me. Because the one of the reasons I also started Pilates was because I believe that positive change in the world starts with self. And if you can feel better in yourself, I believe that you're going to make better decisions in your day to help other people feel good in themselves. But if you're feeling shitty in yourself and you've got a sore back and everything's too difficult, the chances are you're gonna be maybe a little bit of a shitty person is a bit higher, right? So I think positive change starts with self. And if I can help people feel better, I think that's this lovely ripple effect that our communities and humans just need in general.

SPEAKER_02

I agree. And you know, I think Joseph Pilates would feel like if you did his work, you don't want I think he even said this, like you don't want to go out and have a fight. You don't want, you know, you're not aggressive, you know, because you feel good and you feel positive and you feel grounded. Yeah, and it feels to me like I felt like post-COVID, one of the good things that came from that is I think people did start to look at wellness as more of a necessity rather than a luxury.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I think the fact of Joseph Joseph Pilates himself also having this very holistic mindset. He wasn't just the method of Pilates, he was get your feet on grass, get outside in the sunshine, have a good diet, have social connections, do other forms of movement. I think there's such a big problem also in the wellness industry of everyone fighting like Pilates isn't enough and you've got to do this. Shut the f up. You know, like let's.

SPEAKER_02

I find it funny how there's almost this in any sort of modality that there is, Katie, there's this, and once it gets big and people are talking about it, there's this feeling like it's not enough. It was never meant to be everything, to your point. Joseph Pilates wasn't just about his contrology, he was about a whole set, he was into lots of other movement practices as well. And I I wonder if there's an element of some of the innovation in the Pilates world has been right, we want to put strength training into it. It's like fine, maybe, but it's often at the detriment of what Pilates itself or Contrology as he corrected was actually about. And about, you know, I was I've recently taken up weight training and I'm really enjoying it. And my trainer is making these really minute changes, just like we do in Pilates, and she'll say to me, like, I've never seen anyone who can take on these changes like you. I'm like, because that's what Pilates is. And I mentioned this to one of my recent graduates, she came to class yesterday, and I was telling her the story, and she said, Nick, I did weight training for a long time, and it's when I did Pilates that I realized how much better it got. And to your point, like, why are we all coming up against each other? Like, it's not enough to build strength, it's not enough for you to be doing this. We need to just be doing more and a more of a variety. I mean, that's that is actually what Pilates was saying.

SPEAKER_00

A hundred percent. I believe that everyone wants to bid things against each other in competition. But the thing is, they're actually complementary to each other, they complement each other, they go together. Strength training, Pilates, fabulous Venn diagram moment. You know, that's where the sweet spot is. And add in a little bit of cardio on your bike or your walking or whatever run club you like. That I think is a great foundation of movement, of a movement routine that someone could take on board. And I do believe in diversity of movement, but I still believe in consistency within the methods, right? If you're doing consistently the gym, consistently Pilates, and consistently cardio, that's great. But if your hat has it, a little bit of this, a little bit of that, a little bit, then that's where maybe you're not seeing the benefit landing and maintaining in your body.

SPEAKER_02

And I think this is where what I see is the challenge out there, where then people do get a bit cross in the Pilates world, because it's like, oh, well, let's bring strength training into Pilates and let's create a class that's got that. And then it does seem to sort of drift away from the modality of Pilates, and it's not to say we shouldn't have innovation, but I think what I'm hearing a lot of is it's to innovate but not lose the foundations. And I think sometimes in a desire, because you could listen to what you've just said and you could be like, well, let's put a class in that's got strength, Pilates, and cardio. Wouldn't that be great? And I think that's where a lot of these newer brands are coming from. Then they need to fill the trainings, then they need to do, you know, create, sorry, fill the studios with teachers. So then they're creating the trainings. And I think this is where then it gets very confused. And going back to the conversation we had around, you know, when you did your research to find pole star for your training, it becomes hard for student, potential students, and for clients to know why is this Pilates different from this Pilates because it's called the same.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. I think that is one of the major, major issues we're facing in the industry. But I do believe it's also one of those issues that's not going to be solved or resolved overnight, if ever, because the Pilates word is not owned by anyone. So there is not going to be an industry standard. It's also what we saw happen in the yoga industry as well. But I believe that people, the consumer, are going to have to unfortunately learn for themselves. They will go to studios and learn what type of Pilates and what type of teacher works for them. Now, I'm not the type of person who would ever suggest a certain studio to someone. I'm the type of person who suggests a certain teacher to someone because every teacher has its their own unique um way to deliver the method based on their education, based on their body, based on their experience, based on their personality. So I love so many teachers, but I don't necessarily like the studio that they work at, but I like them as a teacher. So I go to see them specifically.

SPEAKER_02

And what do you think makes a great teacher, Katie?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I think you've got to have some personality. Like you've got to like look alive, be fun, but be also serious as well. You need to take it seriously. I think I read somewhere some the other day, you know, saying something about the Pilates industry. Oh, it's not that deep. And I I disagree a hundred percent on that. It is that deep. You're a human allowing another human to move, and you're teaching them how to move and how to feel, and that you yield a lot of power. I think it's very important to stay close to your ethics and a moral compass and have a great foundation of education. So you're delivering a great product to a person, and then they can carry that with them through their human experience because you can also be detrimental to them and injure them or create some sort of fear-based mindset for them in their body, and then they carry that with them in their life. So it's for me, it is really that deep.

SPEAKER_02

And it's like you said earlier, it's to also understand that this work never stops in terms of the learning, and I find that very interesting. And I love going and learning. And I think what's interesting about what you've shared as well is that you your continuing education probably should have a good chunk of Pilates education in there, but can also be more in this well-being world and to understand, you know, that, you know, if you go and do a course in sound healing or, you know, fascia or like they all it all links together, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00

Complementary.

SPEAKER_02

But I think a lot of people doing those shorter courses aren't being educated on the fact that this even your comprehensive, and I heard this from Brent, so I think it's okay that we can say this, it isn't enough. Of course not. Humongous training. The poll star comprehensive takes years. 400 hours. It's still not enough. And I think that's it's good to share that and be like, we're learning, we're learning from courses, we're learning from our clients, we're learning from having a mentor that we can be like, I've got this client, this is happening, I'm not sure what to do with them. Like, you know, let's learn from each other and support each other with this, but not to feel like you come out, you've got the certificate, you're a Pilates teacher, and that's the end of it because it's not and it's never enough.

SPEAKER_00

It's never enough. And I think also one of the biggest blind spots with all education, I'm gonna say this with all education, doesn't matter if it's classical, contemporary, or one of these weekend courses, is that when you're doing your education, you're teaching other teachers, right? Yes. So they want to learn, or they already know the repertoire, or they've been practicing for a long time. So they've got bodies that know how to move. When you get into the real world into the real world and start to teach real people who perhaps don't have proprioception, don't understand how to move their body, don't know their left from right, the way that you teach becomes completely different because you're challenged to teach someone from scratch, right? But in the education, you're teaching other teachers who they they they can preempt what you're saying. Oh, yeah, we're gonna do this or do that. And then it you, oh, I'm a really good teacher. This person's good. They're doing a teaser like that.

SPEAKER_02

And I hear this all the time. We so in our teacher trainings, we put classes on for people with real clients for this reason because otherwise, love the paid gig, and you're like, I have no idea how to do this. And they all say the same thing. I said all the things and they couldn't do it. I'm like, yeah, that's the reality. And then you need your toolbox of different cues and different learning styles, and that that's that's a huge learning curve in itself. And uh, I ran a course the other week, it's we do our reformer training is three weekends, and then you've got several months to fill in your logbook. And at the end of the third weekend, I said, you know, if you'd done another training, you wouldn't have had this third weekend and you'd be doing your exam in two weeks. And they were like, What? And I was like, they were like, because they were they were freaking out of being able to do it in seven months' time. And um, you know, and and I and I it's it's true. I think it's hard. I think when you've when you know more of the depth of this work, it's hard to ever think how could you teach it without knowing, you know, at least some of the depth, because I think, you know, over your 10 years you've learned more as you've gone, you know. So it's it's a real sort of tricky thing out there to to think about what makes a good teacher and and what do we need to be doing to help us with that.

SPEAKER_00

I think I think a lot of people also think I love Pilates. I like going to my reformer lessons, I find it really fun, I'm gonna be a good teacher. And just because you're good at Pilates, good at Pilates, or love Pilates, doesn't mean you're gonna be a good teacher. You have to deal with so many different personalities, so many different energies, so many different neuroses of people. You need to deal with people that you don't like, you need to deal with people you love, you need to give up your mornings, your evenings, and your weekends sometimes. You are have probably maybe working from studio to studio, so you must be really mobile. There are so many different, like there's so many things outside of just teaching the lesson that makes up becoming and being a teacher. Yeah, and you've gotta like, you just gotta like people, bottom line.

SPEAKER_02

You like people, and you gotta like, I really, you know, you you've mentioned personality a few times, and I think personality. Well, it's it's a really because at the studio, you know, I now we have lots of teachers, and I always think like it's a given that you should know the repertoire, and I can teach you the structure that we want you to teach, and those kind of skills. The things that I find actually really hard is that the personality aspect. And what do I mean by that? Like the ability to be really chatty and to make people feel like there's a community within your class or the private in your case, and you know, you're interested in getting to know these people, and I think that's a huge skill that people need. I think it's a very hard skill to teach, if I'm honest. I feel like some people are just natural people people and some people aren't. And it's interesting to see as a studio owner that it almost becomes. I've seen teachers who maybe aren't technically as good a teacher, but they bring a vibe. It's a great class and you enjoy being there. They uplift you, they make you feel good. And you might go and see another teacher who technically is great, they're saying all the right things. You know, it feels like in Inverted Commas a better class, but it can feel flat, it can have language in it that's more negative, there's not a great welcome, there's not great connections with the people. And it is interesting that those classes are never as successful as the classes that have a bit of zest about them. I'm not saying everyone needs to be fun and create no, I, you know, we have some teachers like that. We have some teachers, but they also, you know, you would also say they've got a phenomenal personality. And I think it's a big part of it. And I think your personality is your superpower, and I do think teachers need to have more confidence, bring themselves because we can see all these other teachers, and we almost think I need to be like them. It's like, no, you can only be like yourself. Thank you. That's the most important thing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I I think authenticity is the foundation of personality, and but authenticity is really hard to cultivate if you're not used to really being yourself and making no apologies for who you are, and if you are not kind of withholding parts of yourself. Authenticity comes at the cost of perhaps not being liked by everyone. And a lot of people don't like me and don't like my lessons, and I don't care. In the past, I cared a lot, I wanted everyone to like me, but that's just not how life works. I have to be exactly who I am, and I teach exactly how I like to teach, and I bring my personality exactly authentically who I am, and the right clients love my lessons, and I'm always booked out in those lessons, or and the wrong ones kind of drift off and they find another teacher that suits their needs. But if I'm exactly faking it and trying to be liked by everyone, or or trying to exactly emulate another another teaching style, it's never gonna land on the right people. And I want it to land on the right people. I want the right clients. I do teach in some studios, like only four group lessons a week, I teach, but I find them extraordinarily taxing on my energy.

SPEAKER_02

That's interesting. Is that because you feel like you have to shift yourself a little bit? Because I do think if you work for a studio, you're often following their ethos and not yours necessarily.

SPEAKER_00

I work at a very good studio. I like the owners and I really like the teachers there. But I find having 12 Pilates beds, reformer beds, a lot for me. I am a perfectionist. I have a very high standard of how of how I teach and what I expect in my lesson. And 12 people to control, I find challenging. My sweet spot is more like six, is where I feel that everyone can get the best of my expertise. But I find that difficult. And I also find it difficult that a lot of people, just normal people, are not giving a normal level of human recognition anymore. You're saying hello to people, they're not smiling back at you. You're giving them instructions, they're not listening. You're giving them instructions again, they're still not listening. And I find that very difficult when my effort, my energy, my input, and my expertise fall on deaf ears, and I don't get a reciprocation of like, yes, I'm listening. Oh, thank you so much. And I don't like that. I do have some lot of regulars that come to my lessons, and a lot of my lessons are booked out, which is great. But definitely the class pass vibe as well as this punch in, punch-out vibe. People don't look at you, they look down, they don't say please, they don't say thank you. And it's this very glassed over session. And I find that strange. I'm a human talking to another human how to move their body. I want you to smile at me back. I want you to say yes, no, I'm listening, or give me some facial expression that you're understanding and it's landing.

SPEAKER_02

You know, Katie, it's so funny because we've coined in our studio the phrase resting Pilates face. No, I The resting Pilates face looks like you are having the worst time ever. We have to do a lot of photo shoots, and what I've learned over the years is if you do a photo shoot and you just look how you look doing Pilates, like you look miserable. So you actually because you're concentrating and you're kind of zoned in and you know, it's and that's just and so we often say now to the newer qualified teachers, like, oh, and especially, and I get it still, you know, when you go and do cover and you don't have those regulars, and I very rarely do that anymore, but when I do, I'm like, oh yeah, there's the resting Pilates. And that everyone looks miserable. I think it's good to know that and be like, no, they're just in their zone most of the time. Just in their zone. But once you've got your regulars, you know them, and of course they bring a bit more, you know, you can kind of read them a little bit better. Yeah. And I wanted to ask you, Katie, a little bit about the sort of sustainability in your career. Because I think what's interesting about your work is you've come up with something quite different. And I wondered if you thought that teachers out there needed to think about their work, you know, outside of the going to work for studios, which you know you're doing a little bit of, which I think is great because I think it is good to work for studios. You often get trainings, camaraderie support, and that's nice. But I just wondered what advice you'd give to us, you know, a newly qualified teacher looking to think about, okay, I need to make this my full-time job as such. What opportunities are out there for them?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think first and foremost, making Pilates a full-time job is very difficult and it's very taxing on your energy, and you have to have the right mindset, personality, you have to have the right energy. I'm an energizer bunny. I'm a go, go, go kind of girl. So I've got this pep in my set. And people, and my because my clients, my private clients, I choose them and they choose me. So I love to go and see them and teach them. You have to really love it. That's gonna propel you forward. But in terms of all the semantics, I think people need to use their own common sense, their own discernment, and they're to educate themselves on what they want to be. What teach do they want to be? Do they want what what studios do they want to be associated with? What method, uh methodology, and education do they want to be associated with? How many hours a week do they want to teach? Are they willing to travel? Uh, do they want to do early mornings, late nights? There is no one size fits all. People have to use their own critical thinking to figure out how it can work for them. I make Pilates work for me because I choose my clients now. I set I set my own schedule. Although uh I I do open up very early. I I start at seven in the morning, which means I'm up at six in the morning and I'm on my bicycle in Amsterdam riding in the rain or in the snow or in the thunder. You know, I'm go, go, go. Midwinter, mid-summer, and I I work some late nights and then I don't work weekends. But this took me quite some years to build and get in my flow. And if you want client retention, you have to be connecting with the right people and delivering a very standard product every single time. You can't do one crappy lesson or be late five minutes. People that are paying a premium want a premium service, they want everything to be really hitting those landmarks.

SPEAKER_02

And I love the way you approach that answer, actually, around, you know, understanding who you are, but also what kind of work you want to do. Because I get, we get a lot of graduates saying, like I remember Michael King on his episode said, you know, this job is evenings and weekends. And I thought it was really good for him to say that. And that is often the work that's out there. Certainly they're they're the busiest, they're the busiest sessions. Early mornings, the evenings, and the weekends. And so you get graduates coming out with no experience, and then they're saying, I want to just do, you know, 10 till three, which I respect. But in the studio, that's our quietest time. We have teachers who at this point are 20 years into their journey. They are filling every slot. Like I've got one teacher, I always joke, if she put a slot on at 4 a.m., people would come for it. But she is insanely experienced, you know, and she brings something to it. So I think to your point, which is an interesting way of thinking about it, if you kind of know that, then what is the work out there that's, I don't know, 10 till three? It might be the corporates, it might be going into people's homes, it might be looking at those people, like who are the people who were available at that time? It might be less about the studios. I mean, don't get me wrong, we do have teachers who teach, but it's not, it's often not as many opportunities in the same way that there is for evenings and weekends.

SPEAKER_00

Most people are working nine to five. So they want before five before nine or after five or weekends. So I think, yeah, using your own critical thinking to figure out what works for me, what do I want, and is this achievable? And is it sustainable? And is my energy also able to keep up with the demands of the work? Am I also willing to educate myself continuously? Am I open-minded enough to stay flexible to learn new things and or disregard something I've learned in the past and move forward with new sciences? Am I agile in my personality? Because everyone's going to be different. I don't bring the same such kind of energy with my 80-year-old clients. I give them the crazy party, Katie, of course, because we need to jazz it up with them. But no, I every client is different. You, it's this little dance of yes, I'm authentic, and yes, I'm always Katie, and I always have my education and my knowledge, but I have to adapt to how my personality is with every single person, right? Yeah. And I think that's a skill set in its own, and I cannot teach it. It is, you know.

SPEAKER_02

Katie, I've loved having this chat with you. I'd like to end our conversation with some quickish fire questions, if I may. What is your favorite Pilates exercise?

SPEAKER_00

I love the open-legg rocker on the mat.

SPEAKER_02

That's like my nemesis, Katie. I'm still struggling with it. No, you're not.

unknown

I am.

SPEAKER_02

But yeah, I love hearing, I just find that really interesting. Why is why do you think it is? Why do you love it so much? Because I'm good at it.

SPEAKER_00

Because I, yeah, it feels so good in my body. I love it's a little bit of a party trick of mine. I have been known to do the open leg rocker in the middle of a festival or a party. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02

But I also I like the Pilates party tricks that we could have. Um, is there one thing every teacher should focus on more, do you think?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, themselves and their form and their learning and their understanding and their feeling. Because once you learn here, you can teach there.

SPEAKER_02

Is there a wellness practice that you personally can't live without? Sleep. Lots of it. Lots of it. What's something Pilates teachers need to stop doing? Saying protect your lower back. I would rather them say support your lower back. And what's something that Pilates taught you about yourself? That I can do hard things. I love that. Katie, this has been such a joy. We will put a link to your Instagram because I guess that's the best way for people to follow you. I know you've been putting lots more of these opinions online, which I'm enjoying hearing. Yes, I'm gonna put more. Yeah, and um, yeah, thank you so much for sharing all of this today. It's been so great to have a chat with you.

SPEAKER_00

It's been such a pleasure, and thank you so much for inviting me on. I've loved having a chat. Thank you, my love.

SPEAKER_02

Alrighty, I'll see you soon. A big thank you to Katie for joining me for today's conversation. I enjoy everyone, but I really enjoyed this one because it felt like such an honest chat about where many of us right now as teachers trying to balance quality teaching, well-being, sustainability, and figuring out what people truly need from us in a busy, busy world. If this conversation resonated with you, I'd love to hear from you over on Instagram. I always reply to my DMs, and it's been amazing building this community with teachers all over the world. So do hit me up with a DM over there. And if you've enjoyed it, don't forget to follow, subscribe, like wherever you're listening or watching. Share it with a teacher, share it with a colleague, share it with a friend, a client. It's been so great seeing how far and wide these conversations have gone. Okay, that's enough from me today. I will see you next time for another episode of Beyond the Reformer.