Beyond the Reformer

How to Build a Profitable Pilates Studio Business with Joanne Mathews

• Nic Lenny

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"I think we're at that time where we can actually professionalize this industry, and we can have the standards that we want to set, and we can offer people careers."

In this episode, we are joined by Joanne Mathews, founder and CEO of Ten Health & Fitness, one of London's longest-running Dynamic Reformer Pilates brands, now growing into franchising with Tenreformer.

They explore why London's reformer studios have grown 72% in 18 months against just 50% growth in demand, and what that saturation means for studios competing on price instead of differentiation.

They also dig into what it takes to build a Pilates business with longevity: going employed-only with teachers, building an in-house academy, choosing the right locations, the realities of rising costs and shrinking profitability, and Joanne's leadership philosophy after nearly two decades running studios.

Timestamps 

01:24 The car crash that led to her "happy accident" into Pilates

03:31 Launching Ten with one borrowed reformer studio

06:08 Finding a business partner and going employed-only from day one

09:06 The case for professionalising the Pilates industry

15:01 Training standards, VAT, and not being a recognised profession

24:21 Scaling from one studio to a London-wide brand

28:30 Choosing locations and franchising with Tenreformer

34:24 Rising costs, big-box gyms, and the race to the bottom on price

41:12 Is owning a Pilates studio still profitable?

44:10 What community really means at Ten

52:17 Building TenAcademy and what makes a great teacher today

1:00:49 Joanne's leadership philosophy: true support


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SPEAKER_00

On this week's episode of Beyond the Reformer, I'm joined by Joanne Matthews, the co-founder of 10 Pilates in London. What do you think makes a Pilates business last longer?

SPEAKER_01

I fractured my back and rotated my pelvis, and it was during that experience and trying to recover that I was introduced to the reformer. I actually lost my job. It feels like your world's falling in, but I could see that there's an opportunity because there is something here, a 72% increase in reformer studios in the last 18 months, but only a 50% increase in demand. The market is saturated. Yeah, we've been doing this for 18 years. People will go away and they'll come back once this noise settles down. Those that have clearly defined will continue their climbs.

SPEAKER_00

Hello everybody. Welcome back to Beyond the Reformer. I'm absolutely thrilled that you are here. Today I'm joined by Joanne Matthews, who is the co-founder of 10 Pilates in London. I got to sit down in person with her and have a real deep dive into what it takes to build a studio that's grown beyond one location. Multiple locations, challenging environment with the boom of Pilates at the moment. And it was just so great to hear from her what it takes to build a phenomenal brand and a phenomenal studio that clients come back to time and time again. Before we get into today's conversation, I ask every week, but it's really helpful if you could like, subscribe, or follow, if you're watching us on YouTube or Spotify video, or if you're listening to us on any of the podcast platform. It also really helps the podcast to grow that you listen every week and that you share us with friends, family, colleagues, clients, anyone who you think would benefit from this conversation today. Okay, let's get into today's conversation. Joe, it's fabulous to have you on Beyond the Reformer. Thank you so much for joining me. We're in person, we're in London, down the road from where you are.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here and actually talk about Pilates and the sector because there is so much going on. So it's really good to be here with you and actually share lots of different experiences.

SPEAKER_00

And I think it's I'm really excited about looking at that because, you know, even in the last couple of years, it it feels like there is this shift going on. You know, you've built Ten Pilates, one of London's most respected Pilates studios. I've been at your studios many times. What do you think makes a Pilates business last long term?

SPEAKER_01

So for me, it was so important that we were clearly differentiated. So I came into Pilates kind of through recovery, through my own personal story. So I had a car crash back in 2006 where I fractured my back and rotated my pelvis. And it was during that experience and trying to recover that I was introduced to the reformer. So I didn't know anything about it, but because I couldn't hardly walk, it became a really important piece of equipment to help my recovery. So my first introduction to Pilates was on the reformer. And I used that as a really important part of what was then going to become the rest of my journey. And the rest of my journey was understanding that in the market, Pilates wasn't really understood. It was seen as really niche. We talk about 2006, 2007. So a long time ago, it was where ballet dancers went. It was, it was kind of all those map Pilates in church halls. There was really nothing there to elevate the product. And it was such a good product. So part of my recovery, I was looking at what yoga had done, because I come from marketing and PR, I come from a brand background. So I've flogged fashion furniture for many years. And I was kind of looking at, well, what's going on in the marketplace? Because it's such a good modality, but it's so hidden. And so for me, it was well, is there an opportunity here? Are there more people like me who've had an injury that need recovery but don't want to use the traditional methods, but also keep being pushed around lots of different people and not really getting an answer? So I researched what was going on in the yoga market, and that was very mainstream. I looked at what was going on in America, and we had Spass in the Greece was doing class-led reformer, and I was looking to Australia because they are very much ahead of us in terms of fitness and the way that they integrate it with medical care. So I kind of looked at all those and went, actually, there's a client demand here. There is an opportunity to take a really good idea in Pilates discipline and bring it more mainstream, make it more accessible. So for me, it was really clear to have something that was clearly differentiated why we're doing dynamic form Pilates and why we're doing it instead of mats. That was one of the things. Why is it being done in small groups and make it more accessible? And how could I create a product that really interested and inspired people? And so we we launched 10 back in 2007, and I literally had a 10-bed reformer studio and the furniture from my house in in in reception as a reception, and that was it. But it was it was our access into Pilates and to see if we could deliver small group Pilates.

SPEAKER_00

Well, tell me a little bit about before then. So you've obviously had this accident. Pilates has been a pivotal part to that, and you've discovered, you know, that we could do this. But people might think that and never think, okay, I'm gonna, I mean, did you leave your job? Like how did that kind of happen? That's a big, that's a big risk.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it was, it was, it's what it's actually become known within within the business, within my team as the happy accident, because it was life-changing. I, as I said, I fractured my back, rotated my pelvis, a lot of soft tissue damage. I actually lost my job through the process. So, you know, you're in a highly stressed state, you don't have a job, and then it feels like your world's falling, falling in. But actually, because I could see that there's an opportunity because of my marketing background, I kind of went, okay, this is there is something here. And if I can meet this client need, because 10 is actually an integrated healthcare offering, it's it's its fitness modality is Pilates, classical and dynamic reformer and mat. But overall, it's an integrated business. So we have physiotherapists, massage therapists, and we all talk to each other. So that was a vision. But because I had absolutely no experience, I chose to literally prove a concept, which was reformer Pilates. And I think I felt like I had no choice. I when I looked at it, I went, well, there's a client demand. Do I want to go back to selling as you know, furniture and fashion? What do I actually want to do? I want to do something quite meaningful. And this has been life-changing for me. And the big question is, what's the worst that can happen? And I remember ringing my mum going, I think I'm gonna do this, and I've no idea what I'm doing because I'm not a trainer, I'm not a Pilates instructor, I'm not physio. So if it all goes wrong, can I come home? And she went, Yeah, of course you can. So for me, it was identifying what is what is the biggest risk and can I accept that risk.

SPEAKER_00

And at that time, there really there weren't many studios anyway, and those that were were being run by Pilates teachers as such. So yeah, I can imagine how did you then think about who do I bring in to support me with the the knowledge that I don't have?

SPEAKER_01

Well, so during my rehab, I met young Australian rehab specialist, a guy called David, and we basically built the business together. So originally he was my my first, my original business partner, and he had the rehab training. He trained with Legree in America, he'd strengthened conditioning sports science degree. So he had a whole blend of experience that he could bring to the table. And also we weren't trying to be Pilates instructors at that stage. We were using the pl principles of Pilates on the reformer. So we approached Polestar and a lot of other people at that stage and said, look, this is what we want to do. We want to work with you because obviously you're the experts here and we're we're bringing a slightly new genre in. But at the time there was no interest in kind of developing any kind of relationship at that stage. So we kind of forged our own path on the reformer.

SPEAKER_00

I was speaking at a conference yesterday, and one of the questions I got asked, I'd been talking a lot about how, you know, as studio owners, I think we need to help mentor our teachers and whether we bring people in or whether we're creating our own in-house trainings and things like that. And the question I got was, but what if it's a brand new teacher coming or a business owner who isn't a Pilates teacher? Like how do they mentor it? And you know, what you're saying is you kind of see that in your plan and you you go and reach out to people who can do that and try and find ways to do it. Because you you obviously realize I need, like you had with David, was it? You've got that kind of support.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And I think what's really important, the other thing we we fully understood was there weren't many Pilates and Pilates instructors, so either classical, but there weren't specific reformer or small group instructors. And the industry, the fitness industry is very young. And we forget this, it's a very r young industry. And so many people were freelance. So what I had was I'm trying to build a brand that has longevity with a workforce that is very transient and also very freelance-based, and they'll come rocking up and they'll take their virgin active shirt off and they'll put their tensure off and off they go. So very, very early on, you know, you your question was, how do I make make sure that it's got longevity? is you have to have the quality of the product. And so our model from probably six months in was employee trainers only and going through our own academy to teach what we teach in the way that we teach it.

SPEAKER_00

And that was such an unusual position that at the time you did that. I remember people talking about it because it was like, no I mean, still really nobody's employed in this country.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So it it is, yeah, it is really expensive. You know, it's always a a line on the P ⁇ L. You go, do we really need this many employed people? But for me, for quality, for delivery of the brand, for, you know, making it more professional. I think one of the things thinking about this podcast today is, I think one of the things that we'll probably talk a bit about is the industry is in so much flux at the moment. But I think it's a great opportunity. I think we're at that time where we can actually professionalize this industry and we can have the standards that we want to set and we can offer people careers. So you don't have to have a side hustle. You don't have to be part of the gig economy if you don't want to. It suits people, fine. But there's a whole host of people that actually want to build careers and they want to work in the fitness industry, but they've never had that stability.

SPEAKER_00

And do you think kind of offering it as an employed option produces the professionality, or do you think we need to actually have standards around what is needed in training, what's needed in continuing education?

SPEAKER_01

I think it'd be really interesting to see that because I work with physiotherapists and they come in with a very high level of expertise. There's ongoing CPD, the whole expectation is you're not just done because you got the certificate. And I think that's that's something that that we should be looking at for this industry. It's not going to suit everybody because I think if you think about what's coming through in Pilates at the moment, it's fun on the reformer. It doesn't even use the word Pilates in it, and it's functional training, very high, high impact, um, not high impact, but high intensity training, one level. Then there's the Pilates modality on the reformer, where you're taking all the Pilates principles, you're you're more akin to that. And in some cases, you're more sitting in the classical space. And then now we've got the wonderful video screens where you have nobody teaching you. You just have the video screens. So it's a really interesting component. I think ultimately clients will choose what suits them. And I what I would hope to see is the people that they're doing in-person, educative style of teaching, clients will start to pay and respect that more and pay more because it's very confused at the moment.

SPEAKER_00

And it's interesting, Joe, that you were talking about, you know, the early days, you were trying to create a modality that didn't really exist as you saw it, and you were trying to well why did you want to do something a bit different?

SPEAKER_01

Because I thought it was really clear in my mind that it provided a solution to a lot of people who've been in the same situation as me. So if you have an accident or an injury in the UK and you've broken your leg, the NHS is brilliant, you go in, they they fix it, off you go. But if you've got a an amount of soft tissue damage, sprains, aches, pains, they just kind of leave you. And they don't you're not kind of sh signposted into where you can go and get help. And I think what we find is a lot of clients come to us because they want either to use Polarites as an adjunct to their training. So I have cyclists that come in and suddenly realize that they they're actually going to get the improvement in performance. And I have people that come in because they've got injury, but because they don't really want to go and do higher impact activity. And where would they go? If they didn't have this, where would they go? And who would they go to? And I think I think Pilates provides such an interesting life stage modality. You can come when you're young and you can, you know, work out quite significantly with Pilates, or you can come when you're older. It's that it takes you from, I call it cradle to grave. It literally takes you from when you're young to in we have clients in the 80s and 90s on our office.

SPEAKER_00

Same. And it's it is just amazing to see that. I'm not sure there's many other things that can give that range. But what made you sort of think, you know, was your own experience and your recovery of of a different style of Pilates that wasn't the classical or traditional model?

SPEAKER_01

I had a rehab specialist, so functional training mainly. So his his lens was how do I get you fit on the reformer? He'd done some matte Pilates, he'd done Legree, but he wanted to use that piece of equipment to deliver the recovery. And I think we just weren't seeing that anywhere. I think it was the same time as when Frame were coming out and they were doing lots of fun, active, but they weren't doing reformer. Jess at Hardcore, she was doing a really good, you know, she was doing really interesting work with the reformer, very much an LA vibe and more kind of yoga mind-body approach. So we were kind of coming from a very kind of functional fitness, recovery, maintenance kind of, and we really clearly differentiate it.

SPEAKER_00

And was dynamic Pilates a phrase that you used for yourself? And I think today, I think it's quite an interesting space that we're in. Do you still think dynamic Pilates is the right way to describe you? Because I feel like lots of other places, it's it's I I think generally it's quite confusing what different studios call themselves, because you must see other studios that say they're dynamic that are different, or some studios call themselves athletic, but they mean dynamic, or do they? I don't know. And then you've got the whole classical contemporary. Now people are saying traditional. I just interviewed Alan Herdman and he said, Well, we're just Pilates. I was like, I know, this is, you know, and it's it's an interesting space. And I actually think is one of the challenges around a naming convention.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think I think that I think it's really valid that question because for me, I was really clear we're doing dynamic reform Pilates because we are doing Pilates at a faster pace than you would get if you were doing classical and it's on a piece of equipment and it's not on one-on-one groups or two-on-one groups. So, you know, for me, the flow and the pace underscore the why we call it dynamic. Time under tension as well for your muscles, all that sort of stuff. So it's for me where we start, and I think we created this kind of genre. I think you're absolutely right. Some people are just doing fitness on the reformer, so they don't even use the word polarities. And then it does bleed into do we go into classical, do we go into I I mean, I've been looking at gyrotonics, I'm so interested in that now. So I think I think we are going to start to get, especially if there's legislation that comes in, and I'm not against any legislation coming in because the better we make it, the more professional we make it, the safer we make it. It just makes the quality better across the board. And I think that might drive some terms.

SPEAKER_00

The thing that I think is interesting is I'm so privileged on this podcast. I get to talk to the people who've tried to create legislation, like guidelines. And the universal thing is we've tried, we can't do it. Why can't we do it? Nobody can agree. Now there's kind of some interesting ideas around do we just create a voluntary framework where there's an expectation that training should include you're almost not setting the training. This is some of the challenges around like you must use this manual and you must teach these lectures. Instead of saying we all agree certain components should be taught, and we all agree, you know, certain repertoire should be taught. And we all, I think we all agree kind of the amount of hours that we think should be there. But then you have some freedom around like your style, your flavor is different to how I teach in my teacher training. And that's fine. And it kind of allows that. So I think that's kind of an interesting idea. And it's almost like more of a not a money-making you must pay, because the yoga alliance people have kind of fallen out of fashion with them as well. Like we've, you know, so it's an interesting challenge. It was part of a talk I was in yesterday was around what is the solution. I was on a panel with Michael King, and you know, he's been a big part of this. And he was kind of saying, you know, in order to professionalize it, there has to be some coming together. We have to create some agreement because it's a shame that we're not a profession, like the physios that you're working alongside. You'll see those physios get people really well, but so do we. And yet we aren't privy to the same VAT benefits, which is very frustrating. Like my studio is very rehab, and yet I'm in one of my studios is in an osteopath. They don't pay VAT because they're rehab, but I'm not in rehab. We used to be under education, so we didn't pay VAT. Now it we pay VAT because we're not really education. And so I think it's a really interesting argument. And we don't get healthcare because we're not a profession.

SPEAKER_01

And you can't get, yeah, if you're talking about healthcare, we you know, you can't go to Booper and get your insurance to pay for your rehab on the reformer. No. But they can see the physio. But they can see the physio.

SPEAKER_00

And that's so it's it's I so I I I'm very much I I some legislation or guidelines or like, but it it's been really interesting talking to the people trying to do this, and it's like we've been trying for 20 years, which really surprised me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I think I think there is more urgency now. And I think it'll also help differentiate pay. Why why is one reformer or why is one political instructor paid this or one instructor paid that? I think it will help businesses go, okay, well, you've got stocks, you've got this, you've got that, you've got other, you're doing this kind of work for me. That's going to allow you to be paid more rather than what I'm seeing at the moment. If you're freelance currently, you just say, well, I'm going to teach this class. And it doesn't really matter. You just get paid the rate. And I think, I think we're not rewarding the people that have longevity in the business, that have the qualifications in the business, the other professionals in the business. Because if you've done a weekend course, you will not.

SPEAKER_00

Because that's what I started to see myself, Joe, having sort of chatted to these people, is is it less about legislation and a framework in any? And is it more about the studio owners starting to in some way shape this? In exactly as you said, like there's more reward for if you've done certain things and you do your continuing education and you work more hours for us and, you know, and you're you turn up to our internal trainings. I and I actually think that probably is a good part of the solution, actually. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, I absolutely I think we have to drive the standard. And it's, you know, for us, I see it as an absolute benefit to have the best in class. Because I want to retain them, I want to retain my clients. That translates to your client retention. If you're, I don't know, you're just 16, 20 beds in a room, and you've got your instructor, you've got nobody else, you've got a key code to get in, you just do your class and go. You're not really thinking about how much you're paying your staff at that level. It's it's how much interaction do you want? What kind of role do you want that person to play, and how long do you want them in your business? And for us, it's about because we're trying to do integrated care, we want our staff to be there. So they build a rapport across the different service lines and they build longevity with clients because our clients do stay with us. I've got clients that started with me in 2007 still in the business.

SPEAKER_00

And it's just wonderful when you have that. I'd love to explore actually around that kind of client experience. Do you feel like your background pre-10 helped shape some of the way that you I mean, your studios are beautiful. I I imagine your background helped with that because they are gorgeous.

SPEAKER_01

I think for me it is always about putting the client at the center of your business. And hopefully 99% of the time we get it right. And it is if you, if you're standing in your client's shoes, what does it feel like? What does it smell like? What is it, you know, what is that experience? How did how do they come out of their class? How do they come out of reception, whatever it might be? I think you have to be client-centric, you have and you have to be cognizant of that. And I think because I've worked with, you know, big big brands, done big, big events, but it's all been about how do you create that client experience where they where you build trust. And ultimately that's by maintaining your standards, being professional. I mean, we had to professionalize kind of the the the fitness industry, as it were, for the people that first came to us. And we still see it. You know, peop peop this industry fitness wellness is not traditionally corporate. So it doesn't have all that education about expectations on behavior. And I've seen over the years we've had to you know, we've had to To help people understand what it's like to be in an environment. I think if you're one studio, an own occupier, and you're the energy and you bring the vibe and you bring the experience, that's one thing and that's perfectly great. If you're trying to run a business that is multi-site, multi-service, you know, I have 12 locations now across London. You know, you have to bring a level of professionalism that is in that is kind of embedded in the business. And we have something called the 10-way. And it's just we have to teach people what we expect to align with the brand.

SPEAKER_00

And I think that's such a big part of what studios need to do is have an ethos, have their way. We also have this old way document we just did recently. And it's really important because I think clients want that consistency. It doesn't mean everyone needs to be carbon copies. I mean, would you agree? Like the teacher's personalities are a huge part of this work, but it needs to be underpinned with a consistency. And that goes beyond just the teaching, as you've said, it's the way that they're welcome and that the teacher's not on their phone when they're saying goodbye to people, that there's a, you know, there's a community within the class itself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I think it's you you for us, we have we have a set of expectations and we realize that you need to adhere to certain things. Some of it could be the way you start a class, the way you finish a class, the way that you've checked the reformers. There's there's kind of housekeeping that just has to happen. And it needs to be seamless and not intrusive, but it's a standard that we expect. And then, yes, you bring your personality. Some people like to teach different types of groups of people. Some people like to work with older people, some people don't. So, you know, there's lots of room for maneuver within that, but there are certain standards that you have to maintain and expectations. Wearing uniform, you know, it it's we don't want to be saying to someone wears your uniform. It's just not we have to give that consistency for that professionalism, and then you bring your personality. And that's through recruitment. We must must be hiring the right people that have agility. You know, you've got different types of people in your class. If you're dealing with 10 people at one time, how are you going to navigate that? So yeah, I think it's we I kind of look at it as we'll provide the framework and the toolkit for you to do your job and bring your personality.

SPEAKER_00

And did your background help with that, like in terms of structure and operating procedures, or was that a steep learning curve for you?

SPEAKER_01

I think my expectation around behaviors has always come out of brand. So we have we have our brand, we have our values, we have our performance metrics. And I think that's really clear. I think what I had to learn was all the operating, you know, operating a site side of things, health and safety. I mean, just all the stuff that 90% of the time you're really not interested in, but is actually fundamental to best practice. So yeah, I had to learn some of that. And at the beginning, when it literally was only me and a couple of trainers, I did everything. I did, you know, the booking system, the invoicing, the so I learned the business from the ground up. I sat on reception. So I've kind of seen it from the ground up. And I, there's no job that I won't do or I'm not happy to do. So I think that was really important as well, especially as you get bigger, because then you kind of understand what they go through. If if the till system's not working or the PDQ machine, you understand that frustration and the way tech's moving as well, trying to keep up with that and make it frictionless. So it's yeah, it's ever evolving. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So what was the tell me about how you went from the one studio, what happened next? Was it to two? Or was there always a vision to, you know, have 20 studios or 10 studios, or what what was the thought?

SPEAKER_01

The thought was I wanted to build a brand that could grow, that could diversify, so I could do brand extensions. And I wanted something that would would have some longevity. What that looked like, my original business plan was that I'd have 20 studios in five years. And yeah, that went out of the window very quickly. So I think it was my original business partner, he he wanted his name above the door. So we didn't have Matt Roberts, we love Matt Roberts, but he his name's above the door. And I was like, I had this whole thing about if you put somebody's name on the door, the client comes to that person. And it's very difficult to build a brand based on that. So it was really clear that we had to have, so we came up with 10. And 10 being the number of reformers, is that well, 10, 10 because it was such a great number. You know, it's such a positive affirmation. Also, it was like when Victoria Beckham launched her her her first range, and it was a time when everyone was looking at size zero as being the marker of what good look like. And I I was really anti that. I was like, I think, you know, 10's great. If you're a 10, does it matter? You don't want to be a zero, you know. Being comfortable in your skin is really important, and that comes in a variety of sizes. And it was just every time we said the the number 10, it was like And 10 out of 10, give it a 10.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I love that. I said I love that. I didn't know that actually about your story. And the ordinary person is such a potentially forgotten about person these days, I think, in the growth of Pilates, you know, the the just the normal people of the world who make up the bread and butter of my studio. I'm sure they do of yours too. So I I think that yeah, around sizing and things like that's really interesting, actually. And it just it just happened to be at that moment.

SPEAKER_01

And I and I think it resonated with me because I'm never going to be a size 10. And so, you know, I'm happier than 10. That's that's that's absolutely fine. And and I just felt that we we were 10 health and fitness, we wanted our clients to know us as 10. Because you can come for 10 physio, 10 personal training, 10 polarities, but ultimately you just come to 10. And that's gonna outlive me. It's going to outlive the people that come through our the teams that come through, because the brand in itself is very strong.

SPEAKER_00

So the vision was always a wellness space in that sense. And so when did that happen? You had the one studio as a proof of concept. What happened next?

SPEAKER_01

So we we opened in August, we broke even by December. I'm like, okay, there's something here. We we're making money. So I thought, okay, well, let's keep it in this ecosystem of West London because I started in Notting Hill. And so we went to Chiswick and we opened in Chiswick. And the interesting story there is I signed the lease and I was driving home, I was going over the Marablone flyover, and it came on the there was a big financial crash, and it was all over the news. And I remember calling my boyfriend saying, Do you know, I've just signed this lease and the whole financial industry is imploding. I think this could be disastrous. And then the next day I went back into to work and we were full. And I was like, this is really interesting. Because what we noticed that people would trade a holiday, you know, give up on their third holiday, come for their their come for their Pilates or their health and their wellness first. And people would really find that important, especially in difficult situations. So now in this economic climate, you know, it is it is really tough for people, but we're still seeing people spend in this space because it's important. And they feel good. And they feel good. And it's feel good. And it's their space.

SPEAKER_00

I'm always thinking when I have looked at opening studios, like I look at a lot of spaces. I think it's a very tough job to find a space that has the right look, has the right feel, is in the right location. The maths work, that's always a challenge. And then you're now, you know, when you're looking at spaces that have these multi-faceted elements to them. How do you go about trying? Do you look for areas first? What's the approach for you?

SPEAKER_01

I think what we've done is always looked for sites. This this journey, because we opened Notting Hill, which was back in 2007. It was off pitch. It it's at the wrong side of Notting Hill. There's nothing that really shouts for it. It's not curb appeal, there's nothing. But what worked was there was no competition. And we were, we were establishing ourselves and there was interest in what we were doing. So people would come, they would walk, they would drive, they, you know, people coming 25 miles to train with us. What, you know, roll forward to where we are now, there's almost a Pilates studio on every street. So location has become so important. Doesn't matter how strong your brand is, people are not going to, I don't believe people are going to go 20 minutes out of their way necessarily to come to. They'll do it for physio, because it's a it's a different, different message for that, it's a different rationale for them, but they won't do it necessarily for say, say generic Pilates, they won't do it. So I think location now is more and more important. So the last three studios I've opened have been really successful. So Notting Hill Gate, one minute from the tube, nine elms in a in a bespoke building, you know, residential building. You literally can't come out, you've got roads either side, so it's high density in a very small space. And King's Cross, it's just a it's a great space, and Argent have done a great job in creating a destination for King's Cross. So I think you've got to look at location and you've got to look at competition.

SPEAKER_00

And are you looking for like if you were going to, let's say you thought, I'm going to take it to another city? Because this is the challenge, isn't it? Because you think I don't know, you know, when it's in your city, you're like, I know the area, I can stand around, I can watch, I can see the people who are here. Like, how would you approach it if you were going to open in some random city? Would you look at like is demographics important? Yeah, I think you've got to know your client.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. You know, we have a very particular client that we And you see the same sort of clients across the studios, like it's the same type of person. At the core it is, but there are differences. Each studio has its own personality. Some will be slightly skewed younger, some will be skewed older. So there are nuances, but fundamentally we get the same core group in. I always think it's the same person, but at different ages.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I don't know if that's the same thing. And do you have to approach that differently in terms of, I don't know, any of your messaging or events that you might put on, or does does that not seem to matter so much?

SPEAKER_01

I don't think it matters so much for us because we have quite a a defined cohort of people that we speak to and we sit within the sort of 30 to 50 age group. So we we are in some ways significant older, you know, clients that go to one rebel wouldn't come to us. It we are quite clearly differentiated in age group. So so for me, going into a a new city, A would we'd really look at the demographic, and then you also look at location. But I've kind of flirted with this a few times, but I actually think if I go to another city, I'd want three or two, because you need a bit of an ecosystem when you're in in in outside of your normal space. Because if something happens, a manager can move, a trainer can move around where we are. But if you're kind of satellite on your own, you're kind of like you're done.

SPEAKER_00

That's what I've thought about. I think about the team that I've spent years building that I trust now. You know, one of my team members who is one of our lead instructors, she does a brilliant job of recruiting. She knows what I like inside out, and that's been such sort of time taken off me, which is great. I think, how am I going to find one of her in another city? So I actually so it makes sense. You kind of because that's always the challenge, isn't it, that you need the income from maybe more than one studio to justify a person to help kind of take some of these senior roles.

SPEAKER_01

Well, it's yeah, I think it's, you know, you've got your studio costs, and then for us, we've got quite a lot of head office costs because it becomes a bit of a machine. And I think if you've I'd like to go to Manchester, I'd I'd like to be in different spaces, and there was definitely opportunity there, but I've always kind of been put off because one site is just too isolating for me. And I might be really other people might have done it and it might prove me wrong, but I would really like to start saying okay, we can go here and here, create your own ecosystem, create your support system. You can have that extra person and you can afford it because you across two sites. So it becomes more self-sustaining.

SPEAKER_00

What's driving forward, you know, you've like you said, you've opened more studios in recent years. What's driving that forward to keep opening more? I like variety.

SPEAKER_01

I think I'm driven by variety. I think there's a lot of changing dynamics as well in the marketplace. So I think there's lots of opportunities for us as an integrated healthcare provider to kind of tap into some of the new things that are coming through. But I also started a franchise business. So Ten Reformer is a franchise business. We have one in Islington and our first franchisee launches in end of the month. So that's been interesting. That's going back to a single modality, delivering it, trying to get kind of think about the wave that we're going through in Pilates at the moment, but also to get growth potentially outside of London. So where else can we go and maybe into Europe? So I think it's it's kind of been quite considered about trying different markets and seeing kind of where that would take us. So just interesting.

SPEAKER_00

And you know, having the number of studios you have, you're really privy to the challenges of running studios, whether that's the challenges of running multiple studios, but just the challenges of running studios. What are you seeing as the challenges today?

SPEAKER_01

The challenges for me have been, you know, we had an extra 400,000 pounds of costs put into the business through changes in government legislation. That's the challenge of having an employee workforce. Which means we're not agile, which means that we have to take this cost. So you've got that on one side. You've also got consumers who are conscious, more conscious about their discretionary spend. And we have a market that is driving to the bottom in price. So you look at what Class Bus is doing to the industry, you look at what offers are. We've educated. When I started 10, we my view was to be the antidote to the gyms, the big box gym. People weren't happy. It was just wasn't a great experience for them. So what boutique fitness was bringing to them was more personalized, more bespoke, more community. Now what we find is that the gyms have taken all those modalities back into their own spaces. So we have Third Space has 20 reformers, we have Virgin Active, we have David Lloyd, Jim Box are going to put in Reforma. Then you've got brands that weren't traditionally Reforma doing Reforma. So Cycle is now doing Reformer. So Reforma has been, you know, Pilates has gone into all these spaces and they're all membership-led, predominantly membership-led. So what we have now in Boutique Fitness, where we would pay as you go, we've created the fact that clients know that they can shop around. And to drive a membership model in a single modality, specifically Pilates business, is really difficult. So one of the challenges is how do you drive your recurring revenue when you have a very certainly the growth in the market is coming from young, young people trying and getting into it. And they want to, they want to shop around. And we're allowing them to shop around and we're driving the price down. So you could probably train for free in some cases. You could train for £10 classes. You know, that is not sustainable if you're paying your instructors £40 or more for a class.

SPEAKER_00

I heard someone refer to class pass as people having a series of one-night stands, which I thought was a great phrase. And I also, I was at another conference earlier in the year, and some it was an Australian that was a great phrase. There's lots of cheaples around, and it is the people doing all the intro hopping. And we didn't have that challenge as much as now. Because you said to me before we came on air the the growth in London of studios.

SPEAKER_01

Studios, a 72% increase in reformer studios in the last 18 months, but only a 50% demand, increase in demand. So there's this big gap. The market currently is saturated. So the only way people are going is on is playing in it is on price, which is teaching people that they can get something cheap. But then if you go back and you, you know, we talked about costs and what it costs to run a s a space, there is a platform that you can go down to that just doesn't make it sustainable. And that I think is is the challenges are we want to deliver quality that comes at a cost. The market is saturated and we're seeing people offering Pilaris for £10 a class, £6 a class. That even if you've got 30, 40 people in your class, that means the quality's gone. But until this group of consumers coming in understand what good looks like, because they don't necessarily, and that's not on them, that's on us, we're going to have a lot of flux. I think the next year is going to be really interesting.

SPEAKER_00

So how do we tackle that as a studio like yourself? How do you do you think about how do we educate that we're good?

SPEAKER_01

I think you just have to go back to why you're different. And then your clients will hopefully understand that and opt in. You need you need them to understand why you're different. And if you're if you're not about being different and you're about just having fun on the reformer and you can do it for 10 pounds and you could put 20, 30 people in a room, fine. There will be a group of people that want to come and do that. But if you want to do everything that isn't about the churn of your client, is sustainable, longevity, paying your workforce well, offering careers, not just jobs. I think there has to be a real reset.

SPEAKER_00

Paying your workforce well is such a good point, Joe. And we increased our prices earlier in the year, but it all went into the teachers. And I explained that to our members because I said, What other job are you in that you don't get a pay rise for five years, ten years? Because there's a lot of teachers still being paid what I was paid 10 years ago when I first came into this. So how do you, you know, when you're sat with your team, how do you start to think about planning, you know, do you see a shift in some of your like I definitely have seen a shift in the intro numbers. You think, what am I doing wrong? And then when I've spoken to other studios, they're like, no, we've also seen a shift in the drop. We're still converting well, but you're like, you know, I'm not doing anything different, but you're like, it can only be the fact that people are trying lots of places.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, I think people are trying loads of places. ClassPass used to have two memberships, they've now got five different memberships on their on their website. You can get 15 pounds up to something like 150. That that's kind of a mess. Let's give it everybody the opportunity to come to ClassPass. I think the thing that I've seen, which has changed it literally in the last year, is the way that Google, the whole AI thing, has changed the way search engines work. And so your pay pay PPC, your organic growth, it's been real changes in.

SPEAKER_00

You're so far down the page. Even if you're number one in the organic search, there's a lot of scrolling to get past. And a lot of people are saying that's really impacting them. So you kind of have to do PPC, which is paid Google advertising, if you weren't already doing it, because otherwise you're actually really far down. And your cost for acquisition's gone up.

SPEAKER_01

So it's gone up something like 2019, 10 pounds. It's now 30 pounds. You know, it's huge. You've got people outspending you, so class pass a massive spender, one rebel spend, huge amount. You know, you've got bigger players that have got deeper pockets spending a lot of money. So the the noise in the marketplace, there's a lot of noise, but you have to spend to play, but it's costing you more money to play.

SPEAKER_00

And the thing that I find interesting, Joe, is that I've had a number of business consultants on who've done lots of, you know, analysis in different areas, and they would say that most Pilates studios are not profitable or at a decent profit level. And so I find it interesting. The studios, I'm not sure I would be brave enough to open my studio today. Bit like yourself, I was kind of the first to do what I was doing. I thought that helped me actually. I think that felt less brave than trying to think I could come in and cut through today. So I do wonder where it's going. And I hate to think of you know how much work it takes to open a studio, find the funding, but I hate to kind of think how it's gonna go. Do you have any thoughts on the next couple of years?

SPEAKER_01

What do I think? I still think there'll be innovation coming in and people investing in innovation. So we are seeing reformers, you know, with screens on them, touch screen, and there are places that you can just get a fob in, go in, use the reformer. So I think we're gonna get that because tech-enhanced activity is everywhere. So we'll have more of that. I think what will come out of all of this is the people that are good, that are disciplined, that are consistent, will survive. And the people that just think they're in it because it might be a lifestyle choice and it sounds nice and it's a hobby. That will get boring. They will they'll have enough of it after a while.

SPEAKER_00

This is a very hard job. It's it it is running a business. And it's I love it with so much passion. But yeah, sometimes we've even had people come in to work in like our studio management team. We kind of learnt this lesson where I think they think because they're coming into a wellness business, it's gonna be like this really easy job, and you're like, it's it's still a job.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we have this conversation a lot, which is you can have purpose but you can and profitability at the same time. They are not diametrically opposed. And when you're in this well, you know, wellness, I'll call it wellness space because there is a lot a lot of people come into it because they think it's gentle, it's nice, it's I'm gonna be able to do what I love. And that's that has a great, you know, one way brings a great level of care. People care, but caring is not profitable. It's it's how do you translate what you're doing into a way, how do you set the expectations that you have a great client relationship, but how are you converting that to the next time they come and see you or passing it on to a physio because you know they've just hurt their knee and they should really be seeing a physio. So we we're often Talking about how do we live with purpose, but are still able to drive.

SPEAKER_00

Has it worked well for you to have physio as part of your offering? Because I've heard some studios say that that's been a bit of a challenge, and other studios it works really well for them. Does it feel like it's a big part of what you do? Yeah, it's actually 50-50% of our business. And a lot of people kind of doing both. Yeah. So and that's well, this model is big in Australia. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

We just sort of didn't do it here. It is. But you're seeing people coming into it now. So think about what Until have done is they've tried it, but they've done it on a freelance basis. We want to get all these different people into our space and then they'll build the business around it. So you're seeing people try it, and you're seeing a lot of physio practices bring in Pilates and a lot of Pilates practice saying, okay, well, can we add extra dimensions through massage and physio? So I think we're beginning to see it coming into the marketplace, but we firmly sit between the medical community and the generic fitness market. And that's what that was always the plan.

SPEAKER_00

Talk to me a little bit about community, how you see community at 10. Is that something you think about like beyond the classes?

SPEAKER_01

So it's interesting, it's a it's a topic that comes up with our team a lot because you can't enforce community. And our client group, being slightly older, don't always want community in in the in the way that, you know, you've got your running club and it's a big community. So we we look at it from a slightly different angle. We go, okay, what do they want from us? Well, they want education. So we'll do an event which is around women's health using working with the pelvic health physiotherapist, talking about Pilates and menopause, talking about the difference of working in in the class or going into bespoke, you know, the one-on-one Pilates. So, and then we'll do an event around that. And that gets traction. I do something called Table for 10, which is when I invite clients to kind of bring them together and talk about the business. So you get them to come in and sit with you. Sit with me, talk about the business, talk about what they like, what they don't like, or if we're about to launch a new product. We in King's Cross, we have a whole wellness suite. So we did the IV drips because it was like, oh no, let's do this, let's do this. We did some research with clients, and they said, Yeah, it's quite nice, it'd be interesting. I think, I think I'd use it. We then did it, and then our clients said, Why are you doing it? It's not proven, it's not evidence-based, it's not this, isn't it? And we just went, No, you're absolutely right. It's not what we should be doing. So we use situations of bringing people together to talk about what we do, we bring them together to talk a kind of an education point of view. And then I I think there's if we're introducing new partners to the business, we'll bring clients together for that. We don't do running clubs, we don't do retreats. It's kind of just not kind of what we've found works for us.

SPEAKER_00

I'm so glad you said that because I often have these conversations in my studio. Our age group would be similar to yours now. And, you know, they're a lot of work and you're giving up a lot of your free time, and then people don't really come to them. Or I think it's about understanding who your client is. And I always think our clients look at community as the class themselves, like they have friends in the class, they've made friends through class, or, you know, as opposed to let's do a paint wine event or something like they don't want that. But my team are often kind of pushing against, but I don't want it. I'm I am the client in a way. I'm kind of bang in the middle of that age group. I think I've got enough to be doing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think it is, but I do think it's really important for your teams to help people build that community themselves. As you said, you have clients come and they get to know each other. So it's using clients' names. It's saying, oh, if you know your clients really well, it's like say, you've just been skiing here, so and so's been skiing, or kids are doing this.

SPEAKER_00

You're almost facilitating the conversations. I think that's so needed as a teacher doing that in that to create those classes that are really always full. The teachers just do that so naturally, and there's great conversations happening before, and then other people who might be new to the studio are listening to that and they're like, oh, like I feel really welcome here, and this is a really nice kind of environment to be in. So for me, it's it's it's it's more about that than enforcing, you know, this is our community.

SPEAKER_01

And who do you choose to have these round tables with? Is it the same sort of people? Variety, it depends. Sometimes it's a group of men, some, you know, what what do men want out of polarities, what do men want out of our services? Because we, you know, we were classes were 90% female when we started. And now it's sort of 60-40. So we've seen a big shift.

SPEAKER_00

That's a huge improvement. I mean, that's great. I always think there's only our industry where a middle-aged white man is the minority, but they are. How did you did you just see that shift happen naturally or did you consciously We just made it people available?

SPEAKER_01

We we many years ago we started working with London Irish, the rugby club, and we got, you know, we got the rugby team in and we showed what it was like and what it what it could feel like. We also had originally a huge amount of male instructors. So that was helpful as well. And I just think we've evolved with it. And because we have 50-50 split of gender in our physio business, it's very easy for us to then go, now this has happened, you you now move into Pilates, and it's a it's a really good transition. And because of that, we're seeing lots, a lot more men. And they understand why it's valuable for them and also accessible. I mean, they used to get really embarrassed because they sweat more than women. And I always used to be quite satisfied about that.

SPEAKER_00

Well, do you remember when like gyms had to have female-only spaces because the women didn't feel so comfortable? Now I think it's I only recently got into strength training and I actually went to the gym on holiday, which I've never done before. It's really I've I've realized it's such a break from the kids. It was really nice. But it was all women in there. And so it's kind of a shift. And I think that's the interesting thing. I think there was a time when men felt like they they found it hard because the women could just do it as they saw it. Why am I finding this so hard? But it is nice to see it. But what I always say is it's my male clients that are our biggest spenders because once they get it, they never leave. They love it so much. You just have to usually get them to do a few sessions. Often I think it's taken something hurting and they've seen the benefit and they're like, oh, this is actually, this is actually great. In the all the scaling that you've done, Joe, of those extra studios that you've added on. Have there been bits that you think that was a really hard transition? Like, was it going to two? Was it going to three? Is every extra one tough? Because I imagine the team around you has to shift.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think, I think that's been it's been really interesting because you and it's it's something I really didn't quite get my head around to begin with. But as the business evolves, you also grow out of your team and the team grow out of you. So it's that shift as well, and being being okay with that, because you're like, oh, but you've been here forever. Yeah, but I don't want to be, I'm like I like 10 here, I'm not gonna buy into 10 here, or you're going, you've got a great skill set for 10 here, but you're not gonna get to the next level. So that's been quite interesting dynamic. I think I transparently it would be more profitable if I had five sites or four sites, because the amount of infrastructure you have to put in, and if you think about it now, new legislation coming in, it it just you know employment legislation, we've had to change all our contracts, we've had to, it's huge. It's it's it's a huge amount of work. So I think, and I think the next iteration being 15 sites, we would actually be more profitable than being at 12. So it's quite interesting from the financial dynamics of of where it all sits. I think it's harder. Once you get past three or four, it begets it gets much harder.

SPEAKER_00

Because I've heard some people say, don't have two, have five. You need five before you have enough money to kind of have an expert in each of the kind of areas that you need. And I'm kind of sitting at the three, and you know, some people are sitting at the two. And I mean, it's interesting, isn't it? But I think everyone I speak to's got more like, I don't think there's such a clear rule on it necessarily.

SPEAKER_01

And I think I think a lot comes into it. So when I started, I thought, oh well, 10 beds filled up really quickly. We'll just put another studio on because we we've got wait lists and things like that. You put in another studio, it doesn't deliver what the studio, first studio does, and you're like, doesn't make any sense, but it actually makes lots of sense. So it you learn these things as you go through it. I think it depends what your what your goal or your ambition is, is what I was like you.

SPEAKER_00

I definitely had a goal of 20 studios and make, you know, out I'm not in London, so I can't have 20 in my city. But I think after the third, I was like, you know, actually, there's an awful lot of work that goes into running bricks and mortar studios, like and getting the right people in there. That's that's such a challenge. The the instructors for me isn't the challenge, it's the people around who are managing the clients and all the extra bits and pieces that kind of go with it, the marketing that has to also understand Pilates. Like it's an interesting challenge around the growth. You obviously have education now. When did that come in? Was that because you saw a need to have the teachers you needed?

SPEAKER_01

It came in really early because what I didn't understand was the people that were coming into the business didn't have a depth of experience that I would expect to be an instructor, but also didn't have any understanding of what it's like to be in a business. So there were two things going on, that battle around professionalism and the battle about qualifications and having the control of what was delivered. So creating our own method, creating how that within the brand just made me feel more comfortable that we were doing it properly. Doing, you know, delivering a product properly.

SPEAKER_00

It is always easier, isn't it, to do that versus somebody else who might have a really great teaching qualification, but you inevitably, whatever your ethos is, you have to kind of mold them. Some people are very open to that, but some people are not, and that can be tough, can't it? So do you now look to bring people in just through your teacher training school? What's the process for recruitment for you?

SPEAKER_01

It's always been through the teacher training. We also put our physiotherapists and our clinical exercise guys through our training as well. So everybody who teaches Pilates to a client has to gone through our training. They can have a raft of qualifications, but they still need to go through our training. I think what we've seen recently is, and it's really a great opportunity. More and more people are actually Pilates qualified at some level. So we've been able to reduce what we do. So if you have no experience, you have to do the whole course eight weeks. If you've got lots of experience, then it's it's it's it's reduced and it's more tailored to that individual before we put, but everybody goes through our training before they teach one of our clients.

SPEAKER_00

And do you run the training out of one of your studios or do you have a dedicated space? It's it's within that. It's a space within Notting Hill. So it's like a dedicated space. Because you're running I mean, when I look at your timetable, you're running them a lot. It's kind of a is it a big part of your business now, running the trainings? No. It's it's not a huge part.

SPEAKER_01

We are a balanced body center of excellence. So we teach balanced body level one, two, and three math, and equipment polarities now. So we we teach that, and then we teach our own training. So we teach externally. So people who want to come and do learn different courses, and then we have our own academy that we run internally.

SPEAKER_00

And obviously, you've seen a lot of people come through your courses and into working for you. What do you think is needed to be a really great teacher today?

SPEAKER_01

I think it's agility and resilience. I think what we've not seen what I have seen more recently is a sensitivity to client feedback, to working expectations, to KPIs. You know, it's it's harder to get people to understand that if a client gives you feedback, it's not. It should be seen as constructive because a lot of our clients have come for a long time, they know know something is not to their standard that they would expect. And it could be vocal delivery. If if you're standing in the wrong part of the studio and you're not doing vocal delivery, it's perfectly right for a client at the after class to say, you know, do you realize you're doing X, Y, and Z? So I think there's less resilience and more inclination to quit than I've seen previously.

SPEAKER_00

Do you have like an onboarding process when someone starts with you to go in and see them and give them feedback on, you know, a vocal. I mean, you know, teaching in front of a group, it that's the work that's out there, and yet people are quite terrified of it, I think. So we do.

SPEAKER_01

We have an onboarding academy, which we have six modules. So, and then we have assessments and the actual in-studio experience assessments as well. And then they have master trainers around studios that can help them. So they're kind of we we have we provide the tools, we provide the framework, and we provide the staff, the team to help them. So every function has a head of department.

SPEAKER_00

We've talked a lot about the kind of growth. I mean, you've been part of that growth and since you opened. How do you sort of see us going? You mentioned about like it feels like the depth of the teaching. And that's kind of what I went to a conference recently, and I'm not against innovation, but it was like innovation, innovation, innovation. And I actually came away from it feeling even more clear that like, no, like Pilates itself is great. Obviously, you have already innovated, but what's your sort of take on the future and what's needed to cut through today?

SPEAKER_01

So, specifically for my audience and how I feel that I want to build the brand, we will be doing more classical. We we will be doing more of the fundamentals, the foundations, the tying up with sport in as much as if you're, you know, if you're an athlete, how can we use this to enhance what you're doing? If you've got injury, how do we help you get better? How do we make exercise sustainable for the long time? And I think there's going to be much more of that. I want to, I want to take, I want to come out of the noise.

SPEAKER_00

That's really, and I I find it so interesting. I feel very similar. And it's so interesting to almost hark back to the roots to cut out of the noise, which I think I think is quite an interesting place. I feel very clear on it. And not in a it must be like this, and you're clearly not like that. You wouldn't have created the brand that you have. But something about the more classical repertoire and system, I think had the depth. And I think if you've got the depth and you can still play with it, absolutely. That's not really the boom. And so I think that will make you different.

SPEAKER_01

And but I also think that's why, you know, at one level we're seeing a reduction in first timers, because we're not speaking to the people that are coming through at the moment that are driving this craze. Because they're looking for for pace, they're looking for Instagrammable stuff, they're looking for, you know, it's almost faddish in some respects. And what we're saying is actually we're not in that lane. We've been here, we've been established, we've been, you know, been doing this for 18 years. I fundamentally understand what I'm doing. And people will go away and they'll come back. And I think once this, and I I like the word noise, once this noise settles down, you know, the the those that have really clearly defined will will continue with their clients.

SPEAKER_00

Have you always felt clear on that? Or do you ever feel like you're in team meetings where there is a feeling like we should be going more in this direction? Or, you know, do you it is there real clarity on that? Because I think sometimes I only in the last few months, Joe, have I ever felt like I have to turn social media off. I've never felt like that. But I feel like, and the challenge I think you're getting is you're getting lots of people using potentially AI to create really good hooks, messages, captions, but then what they're showing is nothing like they're saying. They would be saying what my studio is saying, but what they're showing is not remotely representative of the studio that I'm in. So it's sort of, I've never felt that before. And so it's, you know, it's interesting. And then as a studio, you think, are we doing the wrong thing by sticking close to my, you know, and I feel passionate. I'm like, no, this we stay in our lane. This is, you know, this there's a reason this method has endured so long.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think I I mean, absolutely. And it it, I mean, I'm I like innovation, I like newness. And sometimes I'll be the one going, should we be doing this? Should we be doing that? And actually, like you, I've been watching this now for a year, probably from some October last year, I started to see change, change in figures, see change in dynamic. And then another studio opened, another studio, another big box provider putting in reformer. And it was like, oh, this is really interesting, challenging, and what does it mean for us? And I think, you know, I've I've got a lot of beds to fill, and I think it's about holding my nerve, going, this is what we do, this is the audience we talk to, this is what we do. And yes, they're going to experiment and try different things at the moment because it's such a allowed space, so much opportunity. But I think once it settles down, people will find their tribe, they'll they'll find where they want to come back to.

SPEAKER_00

And we've seen this happen, I don't think quite to this level, but in other modalities it's happened where there's been this boom, there's been this bust. But what's left, been left really, is the depth of knowledge and teaching and the way that we do it. Joe, this has been such a great conversation. What have you learned most about leadership through your role at 10? We have a value which is called true support.

SPEAKER_01

And it's a value that allows you to be challenging, to be confrontational, to be on one side of the coin, on the other side of the coin is to be supportive. And I think it's about being honest with people. Because if you're too nice, then whatever's is never resolved. If you're you know inappropriate, then you don't resolve anything anyway. So true support really is something being like a bit of a guiding star. And because I hate confrontation, you know, when I started the business, I hated confrontation. But I've learned that you have to articulate what you want in the way that you want it. And that can be done in a very measured way. It doesn't have to be shouty or anything. But, you know, getting there, I think I've learned to be confident in what I'm trying to deliver because it's beneficial to the individual, the company, or the client.

SPEAKER_00

No, totally get that. I'm a Libra. I hate confrontation, but it's it is a skill you have to learn, isn't it, to do it with respect, to do it in a in the right way. Otherwise, you're not leading, actually. And I think I've definitely learned that. And you just unfortunately you get better at it because you have to do a little bit more of it.

SPEAKER_01

And I think it it it helps people understand where where they sit in everything. And I think it's also trying not to do their jobs. And I think because I because I came up through the business, I can see how to do people's jobs. I think the other thing about leadership is giving them the strategy, it's giving them the clarity, it's giving them the confidence, and then letting them do their jobs.

SPEAKER_00

Which sometimes is hard, I think, when these are new roles and no one's, you know, that's what happens as a business grows. You're like, well, no one's ever really done this exact role before, so you're kind of learning as you go along. Um, to end our our conversation today, I'd like to ask you some quickish fire questions, if I can. What's your favourite Pilates exercise? Wheelbarrow. One thing every studio owner should focus more on. Clients. The biggest mistake that you see Pilates studios make dropping their prices. And what's Pilates taught you about leadership? Wow, what's it talking about?

SPEAKER_01

Leadership. Consistency. Yeah. And flow. Just consistency and flow. Control the controllables.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I mean, I always think, yeah, I've I've said Pilates changed my life, and people think, oh, it's because you left the corporate world. I was like, I think a bit like you, I had a big car accident. I was in agony. I'd seen something and A, it recovered me, but it taught me maybe to live life a bit differently. I still sometimes need to be reminded maybe of the ease and the efficiency of my life. But, you know, I do think for a lot of people, when they find it in the right way, it can shift something in them that lets them live their life differently. I think it's just amazing.

SPEAKER_01

And I think you I think we will see more of that as people start understanding how how Pilates impacts the nervous system and we start talking about Pilates in the nervous system. So I think I think we'll see, you know, it's it's a way of life, really. Well, thank you so much for joining me and coming today. It's been an absolute honour.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's lovely. Thank you very much for your time. A huge thank you to Jo for sitting down with me, for taking the time to travel across London. We were on a tube strike day, typical in London. I took so much from the conversation with her. I felt like she shared so much wisdom that is so useful to any of us who are Pilates teachers and who are trying to navigate the real busy, busy world of Pilates that we are currently in. So I hope you took something from this. I'd love if you drop me a message over on Instagram. Let me know what your takeaway from today's conversation is. Thank you if you are sharing the clips and the things that we're putting over on social media, you're commenting on them. I manage all the social media, so I come back to everyone. So it's great to get to know some of you. And then sometimes when I'm at events, you come up and you speak to me, and it's really nice to kind of put a face in the name. So thank you so much for supporting me and supporting these episodes. I am hugely grateful. And I will see you again next week for another episode of Beyond the Reformer.