Beyond the Reformer

How to Cue Pilates Like a Pro with Alan Herdman

• Nic Lenny

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 1:02:59

"The technique is less important than the person."

In this episode, we are joined by Alan Herdman - the man widely credited with bringing Pilates to the UK, opening the country's first Pilates studio back in the early 1970s. After training in New York under Bob Fitzgerald, Alan returned to London and has spent the last 55 years shaping how Pilates is taught, practiced, and passed on.

They explore what real teacher training looked like in the early days of Pilates, from months of apprenticeship to learning tactile cueing on real bodies, and why Alan believes the explosion in demand for teachers has made standards "a little suspect."

They unpack the difference between being an instructor and being a teacher, the gaps emerging in fast-tracked training courses, and why Alan still believes you cannot learn to teach Pilates without a body in front of you.

They also go deeper into the evolution of the industry, the rise of group reformer classes, the misunderstood role of flexion in modern training, and the client stories that have kept Alan teaching for over five decades.

Timestamps 

00:00 Alan opens the UK's first Pilates studio
 03:11 How "Pilates" got its name
 09:57 Training as an apprentice in New York
 13:35 Bodies first, technique second
 24:14 Why Alan built a network outside Pilates
 25:27 Is teacher training broken?
 27:53 The truth about tactile cueing
 36:11 How far is too far for Pilates on social media
 40:13 What Joseph Pilates would think of Pilates today
 45:16 The flexion problem in modern training
 48:16 What it really takes to teach a group class
 57:10 Why group reformer classes aren't really teaching
 58:56 The client who's been coming for 50 years

If you're enjoying the podcast, make sure you're following along so you don't miss future episodes. And feel free to share this one with someone you think would take something from it.

Connect with Nic:

Connect with Alan:

SPEAKER_01

There is barely a conversation that I've had on the podcast that hasn't had your name in it somewhere.

SPEAKER_00

It's become so popular and demand for teachers has made training suspect. You need to have a body in front of you when you're teaching. Bodies first, technique second. I don't think that everybody should do exactly the same. And that has carried me through the last 55 years of teaching. She couldn't put her underwear on, she couldn't put her socks on. She could do all those now. She may not look as if she's doing her artist, but she has a completely different lifestyle. Having done something that helps people makes it for me.

SPEAKER_01

Alan, it is an absolute honor to have you on Beyond the Reformer. Thank you so much for meeting me today.

SPEAKER_00

I'm happy to be here, actually. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Well, it's great. I mean, I was just saying to you before we came on air that there is barely a conversation that I've had on the podcast that hasn't had your name in it somewhere. Because you're such an instrumental part of the Pilates story. Because you, am I right, in thinking it was 1970 when you opened the very first Pilates studio in the UK, you're sort of cited as bringing Pilates to the UK. Did you ever imagine that Pilates would become what it is today when you first opened?

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely not. Why not? Well, I I think because when I what when I was trained and came back into London, it it you it was just so laid back and so so small. And you you know you just kept going. But you didn't I didn't think that it would be as big as it is now. Not that I'd mind. I think it's great that it's big.

SPEAKER_01

And who was coming to your studio back then?

SPEAKER_00

In the beginning, I was lucky because I was sent to New York by the London School of Contemporary Dance because I trained there. So when I came back, we had the studio in the school. The equipment was made by the department, you know, the the guys who made the scenery for the company. And so I had a ready-made clientele with the students in the school and the dancers in the company. Because a couple of the dancers in the company were American and they'd worked with the guy that I trained with in New York. So that it was all related to the training and to the dancers.

SPEAKER_01

So it was movers already. And I think that's what I hear. When I when I'm lucky enough now to talk to anybody who was doing Pilates for 30 years or more, they were all dancers. It felt like that, it was so part of the dance world. And so I'm guessing one of my questions was how did you explain what Pilates was to them? But maybe you didn't need to if they were already in the movement world.

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Ross Powell They were in the movement. It's when you when you started getting people out of the dance world, you had to explain what it was about.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Ross Powell And did you start to work with people like quite quickly out of the dance world, or did it stay in the dance world for quite a while?

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Powell No, we started quite quickly because the the school and the company had a back office where there was secretaries and uh so we started with people from the school who uh from the administration of the school. So they knew what was going on in the school, so they had a good idea what it was. It was when people started coming from from outside that you had to explain to them.

SPEAKER_01

How did you explain it?

SPEAKER_00

Well, you first of all, it wasn't called Pilates, then. It was uh it was we we got the the name. With me and the people in the school, in the school uh administration, we came up with body control. So it was an exercise technique that helped you to control your body. And so very quickly I said, Well, Alexey, it's a technique that is going to be related to good posture, because that's what causes m most of the problems. And it's just slowly, word of mouth was the to begin with. And then, you know, some of the magazines got hold of it, and there was stuff in the papers and the magazines. So it was slow. It was slow, but it was good.

SPEAKER_01

So let me take you back then. You mentioned that you went over to New York. Like, so how did Pilates come into your life? Was it then? And what was that experience like for you? How did it make you feel?

SPEAKER_00

It was interesting because I I was I trained as a teacher.

SPEAKER_01

A school teacher.

SPEAKER_00

A school teacher in the north of England. And I was in the dance department of the the college, dance in education, it was uh Laban movement. We did a field study course into London, and Martha Graham was performing. So Martha Graham's company was part of the this trip, so we went to see her perform. And then we went to the school to see how it was working. So there was the company in the school. And I suddenly thought, my God, this is what I want to do. Because I I I thought Laban was interesting, but it was, I thought it it was a lot of movements that I didn't contain, I it just it didn't get to me. So when I saw the Graham Company, I thought, wow, it's so strong. So I thought I want to be part of this. So I started studying at the Graham School part-time as well as teaching in a primary school. And at the end of three years, I thought I I really enjoyed doing this, but I certainly don't want to be a dancer. I just thought I was I I thought I was too old. At 27. So I and I think I I I didn't think I was good enough because mentally I I'm a front of the I'm the front row person, but I thought my technique was back row. So I thought maybe I should think of something else.

SPEAKER_01

But I mean you see so many of the dancers coming through to Pilates, even to this day now, because dances are a very difficult career, is it not? I mean, you know, it's like the level that is needed. I went to see LeMires last night, you know, and you know, you the talent that there is out there and the kind of quality that must be needed. You think of all the other people who don't get these parts, you know? I totally get that.

SPEAKER_00

It's a it's it's hard. And it's harder now. It's even harder.

SPEAKER_01

I can imagine. But you know, you loved movement, and so that was drawing you in.

SPEAKER_00

So, you know, I was I was thinking maybe I should think, maybe I should go and do some w work, theater work, like acting, and then bring everything together and do think of something. Then I one day I went into the school and the the head of the school called me into the office. I thought, first thing, my God, what have I done? And she she said, We've heard of this technique in America that's very good for the for dancers. And two of the dancers from the company had worked in this technique, and they said, We would like you to go and learn it and then come back and teach it in the school. And I said, Well, why me? Out of all the people here. They said, Well, three things. First of all, you're a teacher to begin with. You're slightly older than the students that you've been working with, and we think you'll be right for the job. So I said, uh, could you explain a little more about what this technique is? She said, No, I don't, I haven't a clue, but we'd like it here. So I I within a month, I was in America.

SPEAKER_01

It's like those sliding door moments. I hear this quite often on the podcast. You know, you think there's something almost from above that guides you. You know, you think if that conversation hadn't happened, if that person hadn't had that thought, you wouldn't be, you wouldn't have had the life that you have.

SPEAKER_00

Well, it's interesting because well, I had a very good teaching job, and it was in I started in Brixton and then moved up to Whislington to a school. And first of all, I told my parents about it. And they said, Oh my goodness, are you crazy? Well, what if it doesn't work out? I said, Well, I come back. And a lot of my friends said, What about if it doesn't work? As I said to my parents, I come back.

SPEAKER_01

I think that's what's great about having something like a teaching qualification underneath you is and I know for me when I opened my first studio in my business plan, it was like, what happens if it all goes wrong? It's like, I'll go back to marketing. I have it, I have a career. Like, it's quite a nice feeling because there's a lot of risk in this work sometimes. You know, you have to be quite brave.

SPEAKER_00

If you don't take risks, you don't do anything.

SPEAKER_01

No. I find it funny. My one of my friends, she's a lawyer, and I'll be talking about opening a new studio or something. And, you know, when we're in our world, I think we're quite used to it now. And then when she'll say, How much money are you spending on this? and da-da-da-da. And then she's like, I can't even imagine doing that. I said, Yeah, but I I think the same. Like, but nothing good happens without measured risk. You've got to measure your risk. So off you went to New York.

SPEAKER_00

And I walked into this studio, which was a three-floor, second-floor walk-up.

SPEAKER_01

And had you been to New York before? No. So this must be, you know.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, uh, shock. And the I the studio was uh an apartment that's been converted. And there was the the main room was the studio, and the bathroom was the changing room, and there was a kitchen, and then a little room off the studio, and that was mine. That's where I lived. So every morning I had to be up early to use the kitchen, use the bathroom, and be ready for clients coming in. And it it it was a shock to the system. But I s realized very quickly that this is this was a possibility.

SPEAKER_01

And so they had the equipment there, I'm guessing. And who was running that training with you?

SPEAKER_00

A guy called Bob Fitzgerald. And my training was not the way we do it now. My training was being an apprentice. So I would be in the studio all day and just follow people and watch them do the exercises, learn the exercises, practice on my own, and then start demonstrating to the clients and then allowed to teach them.

SPEAKER_01

And how long were you there for?

SPEAKER_00

I was there from end of June to end of November.

SPEAKER_01

And in there every day?

SPEAKER_00

Every day.

SPEAKER_01

Wow. And your teaching job had given you a bit of a break, had they, to go away and do this?

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Ross Powell The headmaster said you must go and do this. We will hold the job open for you if it doesn't w work out. I let him know quite quickly that I I would would not be coming back.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Ross Powell And what was your first sort of feeling? You know, you'd been a dancer, you go over there, you've no idea what you're walking into, you're seeing all the different pieces of equipment, and then the movement that goes on it. Like what was that? What was your kind of first feeling of the experience?

SPEAKER_00

The first feeling was like slight horror at the equipment.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Ross Powell Which I think for a long time that's how P clients felt. I mean, they're now getting a bit more used to it. But ten years ago when I opened my studio, people would walk in and be like, what is all this stuff?

SPEAKER_00

But also very quickly, I realized that the people were who were coming in were fascinating. I mean, there was a very big mixture of housewives, business people, and dancers and actors. So it was a very good mixture of people.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Ross Powell And why were they coming in?

SPEAKER_00

It was well known in New York. I mean, there were studios around, not as many as there are now, but there were studios around. And they realized it was good for them.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Powell And were they coming in kind of with rehab needs mainly?

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Ross Powell They were coming in for exercise, but there was quite a lot of rehabilitation.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Ross Powell And so you're there and like what was what was those those months like for you? What's your kind of memory looking back on? What did it give you? And that obviously made you have a fire inside you to come back and do it in the UK?

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Ross Powell To begin with, it was just getting used to the environment. But then I found New York very exciting. And just to be in a s a city that size. Unfortunately, at that time in the late 60s, it was not a it was quite a dangerous city to be in. So you had to be very careful. So you be became very streetwise, which again itself was quite a training.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I can imagine kind of being somewhere completely foreign, you know, in yeah, that must have been really interesting. And so you're there, you're kind of apprentice teaching, you're then at some point they start letting you teach. And how did that feel? Did you enjoy it?

SPEAKER_00

I did, yes.

SPEAKER_01

And did you I mean, tell me about those early teaching days. You know, what what did you enjoy about it?

SPEAKER_00

Well, first of all, the the I was teaching very simple exercises. I wasn't allowed to do the the big numbers to begin with. And what I enjoyed about it, I could see what it was doing to people very quickly. And when I got to teach more and teach uh a whole variety of body types, it became it became more and more interesting. And I mean I've I I it I think it started there, which has stayed with me. I believe that it I always say bodies first, technique second. That you have to assess what that person needs and is the exercise right for this person? So I don't think that everybody should do exactly the same. And that has carried me through the last 55 years of teaching.

SPEAKER_01

And it's interesting to hear that, you know, when you think of the classical world and the kind of views around that, but almost at that early stage there was that freedom to teach the body in front of you and figure out what was the best thing to give them.

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Ross Powell I think because uh Botwich Gerald had been a dancer himself, so he had this slight freedom of being you know, deciding, well, I'm not gonna teach that, I'll teach this. I later on taught with trained with uh Carola Trier, who was very much a traditionalist. And I liked her, she was quite fierce, but interestingly fierce. You know, if she shouted at you, you knew it was for a reason, it wasn't just shouting.

SPEAKER_01

And did did that inspire you in some way and bring something else to your teaching sort of skills?

SPEAKER_00

I think it was it brought precision to in my teaching because she was very focused on it, getting it right and being in the right position.

SPEAKER_01

And tell me about the the clients that were coming to that studio when you were still doing your sort of apprentice teaching, they were coming in for privates. How often were they coming in once a week?

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Ross Powell Once a week, twice a week, depending on like here.

SPEAKER_01

So same as yeah. And it's interesting. So you started off with the kind of the more basic movements, but you you said you were already seeing and they were feeling changes in their bodies. I mean, did that surprise you?

SPEAKER_00

In the beginning, yes. And then it it really got to I said, well, this technique is it is good and has potential.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Ross Powell And so you finished that training. I mean, was there always an end point to it?

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Ross Powell, yes, I knew that I was would ha uh was going because it uh they paid for everything for me. They paid the whole thing. And I knew that I had to go back to the London School of Contemporary Dance.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Powell And do you give your promise back?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Powell So tell me, so you go back and what happens then?

SPEAKER_00

I go back and uh at the top, uh it was at the place, and there was a little room at the top, and they had made it into a studio. And the mi the equipment was it's interesting because Bob Fitzgerald cop Carolla had the same equipment as Joe. Bob Fitzgerald car copied Corolla's equipment, and he gave the drawings of his equipment to London to so it was exactly the same.

SPEAKER_01

And so yes, I was so they made the equipment back here on those Yeah. Okay. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00

And uh I started first of all, I used to teach the students in i either in the classroom, I would teach student classes, mat work type of exercises, and then they would come in to the studio if they were needed, anything was needed. Then I worked with the dancers, and it was interesting because the at the place they performed in the theatre there. And if there was a performance, it was fabulous. They would come into the studio f as a warm-up. So they would warm up on the equipment before they went to perform. So it was a very much almost a family situation. And you know, I taught almost 12 hours a day. When people start moaning about the hours of the teaching, I said, just you hang on, wait. No, because that it was just me. And I was there every day. And that was fine.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, it's an interesting, it's a conversation actually that came up yesterday, an event I was at around, you know, this this work is evenings and weekends, and it's great that people have, you know, more respect for their energy levels and what they do. But I do think sometimes people don't quite appreciate, like, I can't just give you 10 to 2 hours. That's in the middle of the day. You know, that's often we kind of we all earned our craft doing similar. When I opened my studio, it was just me, and I did four, 12-hour days. That's what I did. And then I had Friday to kind of try and run the business. I remember that's how I did it. But it I think there was a lot of us, that's what you did. And so what was then the transition when you talk about opening your own studio, is is that what you mean there, or did you then go and open something separately?

SPEAKER_00

I was with them up to six to seven years. And then I was invited to by this time I had uh someone helping me. Really nice guy called Dries Reineker, who had been with the Rombek company. And then Gordon Thompson brought onto the staff. So gradually we were enlarging it. That's when I felt that I could start teaching out of the out of that environment. And I was invited to Stockholm to open a studio for a dance company. And I stayed there about three months doing that, training someone. And then the head of Bat Dor in Israel heard about me and she came to see me and she said, I want you with my for my dancer. So I I went to Israel and taught there. And when I came back, I thought, I think it's time that I started my own place. So that's when I had the studio in Homer Row. It's a it was a converted church hall. Cold in the winter, hot in the summer.

SPEAKER_01

What were those early days like? What was the sort of challenges around having your own space?

SPEAKER_00

It was making sure there was enough money to pay the rent and to pay the teachers. You know, so and you know, sometimes when the phone rang and one someone answered and said, Oh, Alan, it's your bank, I said, I'm busy.

SPEAKER_01

Just so let me still we still say that when the accountant rings.

unknown

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I think that's it, isn't it? You've still uh you know, everyone's got you've got the money has to stack up. And how were you finding clients? Or were they coming via word of mouth?

SPEAKER_00

Word of mouth mainly. There was the the there was the stuff I didn't advertise, but there was articles and stuff that people would come. And word of mouth is I still think is the best way.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I actually was just having a conversation with some of my team, being like, I think we need more focus on this. Let's the social media. We'll talk about social media in a minute, I'm sure, but it's all gone a bit crazy. So you're there, you're teaching your it must have felt incredible to be being asked to go to Stockholm in Israel, starting to think, oh God, this is this is a thing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, this is it. I mean it And you're part of the thing. Yeah, it boosted my uh confidence in in the technique.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And you obviously then have to start teaching people to be teachers.

SPEAKER_00

Well, you see, Dries was a dancer, to be good. He'd a retired dancer, so it was very easy to Gordon was the next, well, he'd been a dance student. So they'd all had had been involved with dance. Then there was a lovely girl called Sonia, Sonia Noonan, who's Australian. She had come more from the physi physio side. So it it just we we added people on.

SPEAKER_01

And what did it look like when you thought, right, I've gone and spent all these months living literally in the studio, and that's kind of how I learn. And then you're thinking, okay, I need to now get other people. You know, how did you set about thinking how you could get these people to know Pilates?

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Ross Powell, Jr. They started very much like I did. They came in and observed, and then they would just do class and work on the it was like an apprenticeship. There was no training course. We just did it ad hoc, because that's all we knew. But it it they got a lot of experience in the in the studio.

SPEAKER_01

And I think it's one of the challenges around today in that in the boom of Pilates and the the need for studios to get teachers, we are seeing courses getting shorter. And even what I think courses that would be regarded as as good, maybe not having apprentice teaching in them. And do you feel like that's an important skill that's needed? Because you mentioned before, like for you as well, it was seeing real bodies. And I think this can often be a shock to people, even if you've done, you know, I often work with people, Alan, and they've done hundreds of hours of apprentice teaching, but on their own, in a room, no one's watched them, no one's fed back, with another plot. Parties teacher in training who pretty much knows the repertoire already. And the shock to the system they get when they get their first paid gig and you're teaching whether it's a private who's got some complex needs, or you're saying all the cues and they don't do what you're saying, and you're like, what do I do now? I don't know what they're doing, or the group class, which of course is the work that's out there. One person's pregnant, one person's got a prolapse disc, one person, you know, and you're like, oh wow, how do I, you know? How do you think we can sort of work with that? Do you think it's it's needed to be seeing more practice teaching?

SPEAKER_00

I think so. And also to be one of the great helps to me. I will when I came back from New York, I had this group of exercise that I've been taught. And quite frankly, I felt it wasn't enough. I needed, I needed backup for something. So I did Alexander technique, which I found very useful for the breathing and the posture. I did Tai Chi. And then I've discovered a physiotherapist who we worked together for almost 40 years, and she was a great help. If I got someone into the studio that had a condition that I wasn't sure about, I would get hold of Shirley and say, What what what do I do with this? And we would work together. And I found that was very, very useful.

SPEAKER_01

So invaluable. My first studio is in an osteopathic practice. And I opened my first studio straight out of qualification because there were no studios in my city to work at. And I was like, if I want to do this, I've kind of got no choice. And I found it so helpful to have that relationship and be like, I've got this person. Like, can you give me some advice on what I should be doing with them? It's I think sometimes creating that network is really helpful. And we don't know it all. And but we've got people around us. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00

We must have that network. I think it's essential.

SPEAKER_01

And what do you think about, you know, you've you've you must have then really started, if you look back now, seeing the different eras of Pilates. And how do you kind of look at that journey from the 70s, 80s, 90s, end of the 90s, it starts to become taught a little bit more widely, and then you've got kind of the last few years.

SPEAKER_00

I think it was fine until the last few years. And this is uh this worries me slightly. You know, it it's become so popular, and the demand for teachers has made training a little suspect, I think. You know, uh first of all, there's online training. Now I I just can't accept that we're going to work with people and we're going to put our hands on people. We're going to have to s help them in certain positions. You can't do that online. You I I feel you you you need to have a body in front of you when you're teaching.

SPEAKER_01

When someone comes, part of our teacher training, we ask for supervised teaching, apprentice teaching. And I love it when someone books a private with me and they'll do some teaching with me, and we'll also do some mentoring and stuff. And the big thing that often comes up more than anything is the tactile cueing because people are nervous of it. And then even if they're doing it, they you end up giving so much feedback on touch a little stronger or touch a little softer or think about where this movement is coming from. And I'm always saying, you know, you need your touch to match what you're saying, and then it feels very supportive. But people can get quite worried about tactile cueing. And I think the only way you can learn it is to practice it in that in-person way. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yes. And this is why, with our training course, they I mean, they have to tactile, be tactile right from the beginning. And also, you know, to to know, just to know how to touch. Because some people are quite brutal when they touch. And you know, that doesn't work.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Ross Powell And some people are almost too soft, and that also can feel very icky. So it's an interesting, or I see sometimes people they are doing like a tactile cue, but in the air above them, and I I'll be feeling again, they can't feel that. They can't see it. They're lying prone. They can't they're like, oh yeah, I suppose. So yeah, and do you feel like tactile cueing is a big part of what we do?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I think so.

SPEAKER_01

I think so too.

SPEAKER_00

You know, if you can if they're doing an exercise that they can't understand, you can talk to them forever, but they're not going to get it. But if you can just slightly shift them into the position.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Powell And how do people get better at that? Because I get asked that a lot. Like, you know, people will listen to this conversation and they'll maybe realize their training didn't cover this off.

SPEAKER_00

It takes time. And also, how can I put this? We're not just teaching exercises. And this is what's happening with these short cases. People can teach an exercise and but they don't know why they're doing it.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Powell It's that difference of being an instructor and being a teacher I was talking about yesterday. I think they are different things.

SPEAKER_00

Totally different, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And and is that the main concern that you're seeing today is around that? Because and it can frustrate people as well, people who've put hundreds of hours in versus feeling like they've got the same certificate as such as somebody who's done two weekends or one weekend or four hours I discovered yesterday. Four hours, you know? So what do you see about today that you're enjoying or you think is a positive thing?

SPEAKER_00

What I think is positive is more and more people are doing it. I mean, like clients, uh, it's it I think it's opening it more to uh to the more in the public are doing it. But at the same time, there's a lot of people doing it but but being being taught badly.

SPEAKER_01

I remember I didn't run this as a marketing campaign, but I was thinking of it years and years and years ago, and it was something hurt, and someone told me to do Pilates. I felt like for such a long time that was mostly how people got into this. Something hurt, and someone said, Have you heard of this thing called Pilates? It's really good. That was definitely my story. And then I went and it felt really good and it helped heal my body, and but I stayed because it made me feel so good and I loved it. Nowadays, I think it's different. I think that, but I think there is still though, there clearly must still be those people coming, and then there are other people coming for different reasons. And I think one of the challenges I think, Alan, is because we've got no naming convention, everything is kind of called the same thing. And because of AI, every studio sounds the same now. They sound as in-depth as your studio. And so then the client with the the you know, persistent back pain is going to a studio going, well, I heard Pilates is good. And it's a very different style to what you're talking about. And that's a challenge, isn't it? Because that person will go away and probably think, well, Pilates is rubbish, it's not for me. Then there are other people who want, they kind of want to lean into the workout element of it. And, you know, fine, off they go and maybe do that. So I think it is a challenge around how we differentiate ourselves. Like yoga has done quite a good job with this of giving names. Do you think that's something we could look at?

SPEAKER_00

But you know, it's I think you have to bring both things into the same thing. I mean, we have people that come in, we have a quite a few men that come in, a lot of men. Some of them have injuries and conditions that we have to be careful with. Some want to want to do a workout. So we give them a workout. And they go out sweating and feeling great.

SPEAKER_01

And that was always the joy of Pilates. You could, you know, I always this, I often, if anyone's listening, they'll have heard me say this a million times. But I remember having a world number one athlete, and in the next hour I had an 84-year-old woman whose goal was she couldn't lie down flat. And so she couldn't go on holiday, she couldn't stay at friends' houses, you know, and that was her goal. And I thought, what other practice can do that? And I truly believe the teachers with depth can teach across the spectrum.

SPEAKER_00

They have to. I think to be successful, you have to be aware of the person in front of you. And this is what I say to my trainers: look at the client. What do they need? Talk to them. What do they expect to come out of this? And and just I mean, it they're not going to be your best friend, but be friendly with them and just understand why they're there.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think it's a big part of our work, is that conversation and getting to know them. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

And I mean, I I have some great friends who were my private clients from years ago. One of them's my daughter's godmother now, you know. You do get you create these incredible relationships with people. And I love that. And I'm just kind of thinking back to what you said about, you know, even when you were doing your apprentice teaching, the power of this work. I mean, it is insane how you see people's lives absolutely change. Like that woman who learned to lie down after a few months, she's off to center parks. She was like, this is like I've I haven't been to center parks in 15, I can't go on holiday with my family and my grandkids. And suddenly, you know, what that opened up to her. And so do you think how do teachers go about asking questions to really understand the goals that matter?

SPEAKER_00

I think they have to start thinking out of the box, really. And they have to fortunately, all my teachers have this ability to look at people and go, Oh, we can't do that. We need to do something else first. I'll never forget that two or three years ago, I think it's even more, a couple of teachers were passing through from America and they called me and said, Could we come and look? And I said, Yeah, of course. So they sat there and I had a client who was an older lady. And uh in my book she was doing really very well. And I was talking to these two after, and they said, Well, that lady didn't look as she's doing Pilates. I said, What do you expect it to look like? Oh, well, you know, all this, this, and this. So I said, Well, actually, when she came, she had problems with her back. She couldn't put her underwear on, she couldn't put her socks on, and there was no way she could reach up into a cupboard to pick something out. I said, She can do all those now. And for me, she may not look as if she's doing Pilates, but she has a completely different lifestyle.

SPEAKER_01

And that those are the stories that have always driven me. Like, I have this one client who we were running like a bit of a party, and so she was there. Oh she is 60s, 70s, and she said to me, Oh, I'm probably not the kind of client that you know you're about. And I said, Why do you think that? She said, Well, you know, when I started, if I bent down, I couldn't stand up again. So I had belts hanging off all my door handles, and I'd get something for the oven and I'd have to crawl along the kitchen floor, get to a belt, and pull myself up. And she said, I don't need to do that. And I said, This is exactly why I do this. I couldn't care less about someone's aesthetics. I remember when I opened Alan, like I said, I was new out. I was like, I really don't know anything, but okay. And I'd found this little space in an osteopaths. Well, I knew them, and they said, Listen, open this space. And I had these really quite complex people coming in who'd seen, you know, all the specialists, but they were still, you know, in so much pain. And I thought, what am I gonna do with them? I don't know what I'm doing. And I thought, I'm just gonna do the basics. I'm just gonna do what I've learned. I'm just gonna follow what I've been taught, and I'm just gonna approach it like that. And within weeks, this guy was now coming twice a week because he said to me, the only time I don't wake up in the night screaming in pain is when I've seen you in the day. So I'm coming twice a week. So I know I get two nights' sleep a week. And I was like, what I'm not even doing anything like cr clever with you, you know? It's just, and I really was this moment where I thought, God, this really works. You mentioned, Alan, about like Feldenkrais and like looking at, you know, Alexander techniques, and you know, we've kind of thought about these things. And today it feels like there's even more evolution happening within Pilates. And what is too far?

SPEAKER_00

I think it's you just need to go on Instagram to see that it's too far.

SPEAKER_01

And what do you see that makes you think, hmm?

SPEAKER_00

I don't do Instagram, but I I'm I'm told about it and they show me pictures. And you know, like people say, I want to I I want to do so and so and so, because they've seen it on Instagram, and you go, actually, no, there's absolutely no way you do that. And uh it's become it's it's not realistic for most people. So you you you ha when when people come and say, I want to do this, you have to be very gentle and say, well, if you're going to do this, it's definitely not yet.

SPEAKER_01

I love the way you said that as well. It's just not realistic. It's almost like let's not poo-poo it necessarily, but it's athletic, it's like acrobatics often, and who knows what those people's stories are of why they can do that. Uh when I interviewed Rayel, he said, you know, I could teach an acrobat this work in a few weeks, but it wouldn't mean they could demonstrate it, but it wouldn't mean they understand it and how to teach it. And when I'm working with students and they're working towards their exams and they're freaking out about, I don't know, grasshopper on the barrel or something, and they'll come and I'll look at it. You know, you always, don't you, go back to those real fundamental things and be like, just go away and practice this. And they're like, Yeah, but I said you could do a hundred of those and you're not going to get any better. You need these. And I for me, I this is how I was taught. And it's a building block kind of system, isn't it? Like once you have those fundamentals in your body and they feel easy, then you can challenge them and you can put them together and you can turn them upside down and you can do things. And I always remember the grasshopper that I remember this client coming in, she was quite um student coming in, she was quite upset about it. She came in about two and a half weeks later, bashed out the most perfect grasshopper I've ever seen. And I said, What have you been doing? And she said, I went back and did loads of your mat work online and all the fundamental stuff until I just, it was so in me and the class just felt really easy. And I'm here today and I just did it. And I said, Yeah, like that. And I think I don't think that's being explained enough on the social media stuff. It's like that's how you get, there's a journey to get somebody there.

SPEAKER_00

Definitely. And also, this is uh d what I see a lot of is if someone is not doing an exercise very well, the teacher will say, Go home and practice. Practice that exercise so when you come back, we can do it. So they come back after being pra practicing, and it's still the same. And so, go and you're not practicing now. It's instead of saying people go and practice, work out, you as a teacher work out why it's not working for them. So you break it down and give them a section of that exercise to to practice. And when they've got that under their belt, you move on to the next one. So they're building up, they're learning the exercise rather than deaf just practicing it badly.

SPEAKER_01

I couldn't agree more. And I think this is where then if you've if you've not had enough time to explore this work, you don't necessarily understand the components that go into. So I can't do this. Well, what are the components? What do I need to be able to do to do that exercise? What other repertoire do we have? Because we have it, that helps you do better flexion or helps you do better hip flexion or helps you, whatever it is, go and practice those and then come back to it. And that's for me, when I was taught in that way, that that transformed my body and pain that I'd had. Because, and I think it goes back to efficiency. Efficiency is a word I talk about a lot in my studio. Like, you want you want to be able to do it with ease and then challenge that. Yeah, I love that. Do you think Joseph Pilates would have evolved his work if he'd lived longer?

SPEAKER_00

This is kind of the interesting thing. I think he would. Yeah. Because, you know, I what I get is from usually ex inexperienced p people and teachers, when I'm teaching workshops away from from my studio, I get quite often say, Well, this is not Pilates. And I said, Really? Did you know him? Interesting. And they said, no, no. I said, Well, what do you mean it's not Pilates? How do you know? If he'd been alive today, what is what he would be doing now to what he was doing in the 70s, you wouldn't recognize it.

SPEAKER_01

And I guess that that kind of comes that, you know, that challenge around the evolution that we're seeing today, and is it all in the right direction? And because we have a lot more movement science knowledge now, and we're learning all the time. And that's why a big part of my talk yesterday was we need more continuing education. Like it's not enough. In my in 11 years since I qualified, there's so much more that we've we now know and the things we say that we didn't say now, and all those kind of things. And so, you know, at the moment, there's a lot of talk on strength training and progressive overload and how that's really good for, you know, women like myself in their midlife and things like that. And so you can then see why studios are thinking, well, let's add strength training in, or we know we should do more cardio. So studios are like, well, let's add cardio in. And it makes sense, doesn't it? You're like, well, I'm time poor. So we know Pilates is good and cardio and strength training and maybe other things. Let's put them all together. But of course, then it can feel like the Pilates that changed my life is kind of got lost somewhere in that.

SPEAKER_00

It doesn't have to get lost. If you've got a client who's doing very well and you feel they need a little more strength training, you can add it without because they have the experience of doing the exercise as a Pilates exercise, the added str strength or cardio, it's it just seamlessly goes into what they're doing.

SPEAKER_01

I guess the challenge is when that's being brought into, say, a group class, and maybe the whole structure of the studio. So every class is like that, or every class is at pace, or every class is the lightest or heaviest spring possible to make it challenging. That can be hard because I guess the challenge with that is they haven't really learnt the principles of those movements in a, you know, I often think it's about the equipment was designed to give you enough feedback to figure it out. And then of course, you I mean, we should always be challenging people. I think that's sometimes misunderstood about certainly my approach of like, I absolutely challenge people. But of course, if someone going into a studio like that and immediately there's a lot of strength load or it's done at speed, that can be a bit challenging.

SPEAKER_00

It has to be led, you know. I do I I introduced a thing called prepilates. And it's a series of exercises that is preparing the body for what's to come. And it's something that they can do as a warm-up or they can do as homework. And it means it allows them to find out how their body works rather than throwing them onto a reform and doing a hundred the hundreds straight away.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. A big part of R Studio's ethos is this idea of, I mean, I love the pre-Pilates work, like unravel, you know, calm the nervous system down, unravel, get balance in your body, and from that place add strength. And clients love it because they feel so good. They feel energized at the end, and yet they feel very relaxed. They say it's this real kind of juxtaposition. They feel very relaxed, yet very energized, and they do see their body change. They're like, wow, how like I thought I had to beast myself to see my body change. And it's like, well, and of course, if you understand the science, we have to calm the nervous system down, especially if you're someone like myself who kind of runs at a bit of a stressy edge of life. If my nervous system comes back down to a bit of a more balanced place, my body will perform better for me. And so that's a big part of, you know, like you said, bringing that work in. And it's a big part of our ethos in our studio, the pre-Pilates work.

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Powell You know, one of the major problems with a lot of people today are is a bad posture, mainly because lifestyle and and computers and b uh texting and all this other thing. If you can get that posture corrected through pre-prepilates, that means when they get to the main event of the exercises, they know how their body works. Because if you've got bad posture and you st you keep doing the technique the way it's uh taught in a lot of places, your posture's not going to change.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Powell Well, I always think you what you're really doing is you're strengthening those imbalances, which everyone would agree, but that's not what we want to do.

SPEAKER_00

Well, if you know I mean you just need to look at, for example, the 34 exercises. 70% of those are inflection. Now, in this world, we need 70% of extension.

SPEAKER_01

I agree. It's something that we talk about at the studio is like, don't just every class should have extension, but and and not just one measly swan in the middle. Like, spend some time on it because and people find it hard and you know, it can create sometimes we're doing pulling straps or something, and it's often people go, I feel a bit sick. And it's that kind of energetic response, isn't it, of firing up something that's quite unfamiliar to them. And of course, I think it goes back to, doesn't it, this the misconception around core strength that that is the answer to all posture problems. And of course, you know, when you sort of explain to someone, well, if my posture is flexed and I do lots of core work, I'm I'm kind of pulling myself more into flexion. This is not what we want. And I actually I heard someone else say that point recently, and I I thought it was such an interesting point. Yeah, Joseph Pilates wasn't living in a world of phones and sitting down and Desks and computers. So, you know, the flexion that is in our lives means, yeah, we absolutely need to help moving the other way out of that. So when you think of a great teacher, Alan, what do you think are the qualities that make a great Pilates teacher?

SPEAKER_00

I think first of all, they have to like people.

SPEAKER_01

You know, I'm so glad you said that, because I think there's an interesting challenge around personalities and being a people person and maybe an understanding that qualification isn't enough to be a great teacher, that we're we're talking to people all the time. I mean, I love people. Like that's a huge part of our job, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Ross Powell, Jr. You have to like people and you have to enjoy helping them. You have to ha and you there has to be a feeling of of wanting to help.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Ross Powell Because we are like detectives a lot of the time, trying to figure out.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

And what do you think if you think of do you work with many people? I mean, you said yourself you did group classes. Like that's a different skill as well, isn't it? The ability to deliver a you know, what is a really great group experience in your mind?

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Ross Powell The depending, I mean, if you're doing you you either do group reformer classes or group math classes. I think what you have to do is to how can I put this is not people that and my students do it as well. They because they have to teach groups. They come with a piece of paper with their exercises written down. I said, okay, now get let's get rid of the paper and do it. And they said, Well, what what? I said, you have to be prepared that the people in front, some of the people in front of you can't do what you want them to do. So you you shouldn't lock yourself into a list of exercises you're going to do. You have to be prepared to maybe throw your list out or adjust it as you're going. And if you're you have to realize in that group there's going to be a lot of people that there'll be different levels. And you have to be able to find a way of making the people who are not very apt at doing the work don't let them be felt left out, or that the people who are very good get be bored, you have to try and m mesh that together. So everybody moves out of the studio quite happy with what what they've done.

SPEAKER_01

I agree. And even if you do level your classes, you still get that in the class. So how does someone approach that? Because I think that is a really tricky thing to figure out in the early days.

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Powell I think sometimes you have to just say to someone, just sit this one out. Really? Because you the other thing is that you can't dwell on one person if they're not doing it right. Because what about the others?

SPEAKER_01

I've definitely had that conversation with some teachers in my studio. One person can dictate all your energy, and you're like, there's another ten people who were there to have a class.

SPEAKER_00

But also you can get someone who is very demanding.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Powell And this goes back to the people. I mean, that's the challenge of our work, isn't it? We're dealing with people. How do you manage that? How do you sort of set that energy in the room so that, you know, there's an element of like, I'm in charge here?

SPEAKER_00

Well, sometimes you have to say it. Who is the teacher here?

SPEAKER_01

Yes. We had it, this was years ago. We were teaching an advanced class, and we were having a bit of a spate of accidents, which is not okay. And, you know, when I went and spoke to the teacher, what had become apparent is that there had been a bit of a like that beginning piece that you were talking about was being missed. The unwinding, the setup, the relaxing. And she was kind of getting into it too quickly. And then when I said, look, you you can't leave that bit out, like it's even more important in advanced class that people are balanced and ready. And then she said that people were kind of going, Oh, come on, get going, get going. I wanna. And I said to her, You have to turn around and you have to say, if you didn't, you know, I'm in charge here. And if you don't want to be here, I said, by the way, you've got my support as a studio owner, they can leave. We never had an accident ever again, you know? And I do think there is an element of that. We talk in our training about that, you know, you've got to keep, from a safety perspective, there has to be that boundary, doesn't there, of like you're gonna do what I say, really, within, you know, with a reason in a nice way.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, you have to be strict, but nicely.

SPEAKER_01

To kind of keep it going. But I it's interesting hearing you talk about that around, yeah, how do you manage the different levels and and because that's a challenge, isn't it, of group, of everyone feeling like they're getting a personalized experience, but fundamentally it's a group. And that's the work that's out there. And I do see a lot of people coming out of trainings now finding that quite a big demand. And I was talking yesterday at this event about, I feel like when I started, when I opened my studio 11 years ago, we had a bit of grace, Alan. Like, I don't feel like clients, I think they kind of came along for the ride with you a little bit. Whereas I think now clients are often hopping between studios or they're used to you as a teacher, and then a cover teacher comes in and they're like, they expect them to be exactly the same. And I'm I was like, give this person some grace. They're a brilliant new teacher, brilliant, one of the best. But they're not going to be the same as someone who's been doing this for 15 years. They just haven't got that. So I think there is that challenge. And I also do say to people, I think it's an interesting point you made around get rid of the notes. Because you don't see the people in front of you otherwise.

SPEAKER_00

This is one of the problems with these fast trainings. They learn a series of exercises. They but they don't know how to teach them.

SPEAKER_01

So then, of course, if someone can't do it, they're stuck.

SPEAKER_00

But also the way I was trained was was an open studio. You know, you people came in and they of different levels, but they were all everybody was doing their own thing, and the teachers were just moving around doing this. And we did this for many years. And I was getting to a point where I was uh challenging myself about it. I wasn't happy with it, just watching what was happening in the studio. Because you got a situation where uh you had this group of people doing, and so the teacher was working with someone and left the like uh studio uh teacher uh pupil one had been coming for a long time. So they said, Oh well, she can get on with it. I need to work with so and so. And it the the it was becoming untenable because people were getting ignored because they'd been coming a long time. Oh, she's all right, she knows what she's doing. She doesn't know what she's doing. So I was trying to work out an idea of what was happening with this. And then COVID came. So obviously we were closed down, and when we reopened, we were only allowed to have a certain amount of people in the studio. So we were very, very strict about that. So I said, right, we we will have we'll have duets and privates. That's all we're gonna have. So that we we we got down the the the amount of people in the studio. So we had the duets and we had the privates, and it worked so well. So when everything was uh uh finished, uh you know, you could open out fully. I had a staff meeting, I said, right, we're not gonna go back to what we had, we're going to continue with this. Each teacher w within their six hours, we have a six hour shift. They can do privates or duets. And a lot of the older not one I don't not at age, but the clients who've been coming for a long time complained. Because they said, before COVID, we used to do for an hour and a half. And now we're down to an hour. I said, but before COVID, you were probably one of eight. Here there's only two of you with one teacher. And so I said, This is the way the studio is going to run from now on. And if you don't like it, I'm afraid you'll have to leave. And then a few weeks later they came to me and said, Sorry, we're complained because we feel so much better. I said, Well, of course you do. You've got one teacher for two of you for one hour. So you're getting a lot of attention.

SPEAKER_01

You made me think, Alan, about the you've got the studio environment, then you will have been part of, you know, the big boom in Matt. And now we've got the big boom in group reformer. And now we're starting to see group tower and even group chair classes. One of my studios is like a full equipment studio. So we run, like for want of a better word, a circuit type class as such. It's almost a bit like yours, but a bit more structured as such. Where do you think this is going in terms of the, you know, the equipment? Is it group? Is it coming back to privates? I find it interesting that before the boom in Reforma, our equipment classes were really busy. Now people find them a bit slow to get going because they don't necessarily know everything and they're a little bit more independent and they quite like, you know, Reformer and Matt. What's brilliant about it is everyone's doing the same thing and you're just kind of listening. But do you sort of see that more equipment is going to come into the mix?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think there's a lot. The group reformer classes, you see, for me, that is not Pilates. It's a workout on a piece of Pilates equipment. Because you can't really teach. You can instruct 20 people, 20 people on 20 reformers, but you can't teach them. Because they're so different.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I I always think it's, you know, privates is where you learn and classes are where you practice as such.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, but also people can't a lot of people can't afford privates, so a small group is fine, but you ha you have to be able to how how you deal with it.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Ross Powell And have you you know you've been in Pilates now a long time. Is your relationship with the work and how you use it in your own body changed?

SPEAKER_00

No, not really. I think you You get frustrated a little more because you see what's going on around you. But no, no, it's it's I still enjoy what I do.

SPEAKER_01

And you're still passionate about teaching?

SPEAKER_00

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_01

And what keeps you passionate to this day?

SPEAKER_00

The people.

SPEAKER_01

The people. I know when COVID happened, I think we all felt a little bit like a lot of our teachers left and opened a space in their house. And I think a lot of people felt like that. I was so excited to go back to people. And I remember when we first had people in, I was like, I love people. I love the feel of people. I know we sometimes have some tricky ones, but overall, you know, it's a lovely job.

SPEAKER_00

But I think it uh tricky ones, I think I I like tricky ones because it's you have to work a little harder.

SPEAKER_01

And you know, when you convert them over, they never leave you. They're like your best advocates. Like I think of some biggish complaints we've had, you know, where somebody will say something about a teacher. And it when you really examine it, it's more about the client and what's going on in their lives than about anything that's actually happened, just to make that clear. And then, you know, if you handle it well, then they're still with us.

SPEAKER_00

Well, you know, I've had people coming to me for 40, 50 years.

SPEAKER_01

I can imagine. That must just feel amazing. Like I think about the people who've been with me sort of nine, 10 years. But yeah, you like that's crazy.

SPEAKER_00

And my eldest client is 95.

SPEAKER_01

Still coming.

SPEAKER_00

Still coming.

SPEAKER_01

I love that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

How would you like your contribution to Pilates to be remembered, Alan?

SPEAKER_00

God, I don't know. Let me think.

SPEAKER_01

It's a big question.

SPEAKER_00

I think if anything, the depth of our teaching in our in our studio.

SPEAKER_01

But you've been a huge part of Pilates being where it is today.

SPEAKER_00

The other thing is that money doesn't interest me. If I wanted a lot of money, I would be doing something else. But I think the having done something that helps people makes it for me.

SPEAKER_01

So I think it's, you know, my studio is called Soul Pilates. And I think I had Pilates for me, it slowed me down. It got me in touch with myself. Like I started to listen and notice and feel. And I remember one day, I do give credit to Oprah. I heard her say, you know, what is your what's your soul's purpose? Like, what are you here to do? And I remember thinking, well, this is what I'm here to do. Like I absolutely love helping people. When I was younger, I wanted to be a doctor, and then I realized I couldn't work those hours. I think I've always had this drive and to help people. And we get to do that in Pilates, which is insane in this, but in a lovely way. We don't have to work nights. We're not in the NHS, you know, it's a very nice place. But I I love to hear that. And I think, you know, it your name is, like I said, it's always being brought up. And, you know, hearing you talk now, I've learned even more about how pivotal you have been to helping, you know, Pilates has kind of grown around you and some other people. And that's been, you know, really interesting to kind of see that happen.

SPEAKER_00

One of the things that I really feel strongly about is the technique is less important than the person. And the where what worries me is younger people are doing going back to traditional Pilates. And that is cutting out a lot of people, uh a lot of clients, because the traditional stuff is not good for everyone. I must say it's not good for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01

I know. I remember when I did my training, the conversation was around contemporary and classical, contemporary meaning, really. We're not following a strict order. You could, you know, tweak the order and you could bring in some somatics and some pre-Pilates. You know, you could kind of do that. Now, of course, contemporary means something quite different, I feel. And now people like yourself and myself are kind of going, how do we how do we what are we called? I don't know. Like it's an it's interesting, you know, people some people say we should call ourselves traditional Pilates and not classical Pilates.

SPEAKER_00

I just call Pilates. I will forget about traditional or classical.

SPEAKER_01

It's a really interesting, interesting point.

SPEAKER_00

But you know, it's interesting. You know, people say, oh, the 34 exercises, they flow. I said, What? They don't flow.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, it is quite full on at the start.

SPEAKER_00

It's full on, but there's no flowing from one exercise to the other. You know, a lot of people forget about the traditional principles of Pilates. I was going on to them today, the the the the students were doing uh teaching. They they were taking turns. And uh one girl was teaching rowing, the rowing back and I love this one. And I just stopped her. I said, there's there's no flow. It's like a jerk in every position. It has to just move through. I want to see every almost as if it's just a continual flow and the with the breath.

SPEAKER_01

And that's the challenge, isn't it? Rowing is one that catches a lot of people out. It's the challenge of how do I teach the strategies and the positions, but then how do I get them into a flow? And then you see other people, you get them into a flow and they haven't taught it at all. And so nobody can really do it. So I always think rowing's a great. I like in our level two classes, I'm like, it's just always included rowing. It's like it's a great, it reminds me of. Do you remember when you started, Alan, and like just doing some dead bugs was like the or footwork on the reformer was like the hardest mental thing you've ever done. I'm like, I have to move my legs, my purpose has to stay quiet, my body has to be relaxed, and the amount of mental work, and now you can do it, and it just happens. And I love to keep that mental kind of challenge at the different levels. I get quite frustrated personally when a higher level class is just an easier level class made physically harder. I love the the complexity. And rowing is one of my favorites because it's like, you know, I don't need supine arms on the reformer. I can do that now. Give me rowing or something that is, you know, getting me to I have to think so hard still to find that flow and that movement. And I just think that's such a beautiful connection to be able to do that. But yeah, and that's kind of an interesting point around the flow.

SPEAKER_00

I use the rowing series in my some of my math classes.

SPEAKER_01

And this is what I think uh often comes up is that for reformer teachers looking to be more creative, go and do a math work training if you've not done one already. You can steal bits and vice versa, or go and do a comp like the comprehensively trained instructors. Honestly, they always make the most successful reformer teachers because they borrow things from all over the place, which gives them the creativity that they want and the freedom, but it's still absolutely rooted in this work. And I think that's the way to do it. And you can see it. They're always the most successful. They always are more successful as well at private. They understand the difference of a group dynamic versus a private or a semi-private.

SPEAKER_00

And also uh one of the things that I'm really pushy about the precise precision, precise movements that they mean something. I don't want movements that are just not joined in what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely. Alan, I could talk to you all day. It's just been I'd love to end with some quickish fire questions. Okay. What is your current Pilates favourite Pilates exercise?

SPEAKER_00

Rowing. Rowing.

SPEAKER_01

Do you do it yourself?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, of course. Well, I demonstrate it.

SPEAKER_01

I do love it when there's a reformer free or something. I'm like, I'm just going to demonstrate this for you all because then I get to kind of have a little go of it. Do you find there's a cue that you hear yourself saying a lot?

SPEAKER_00

Slow down.

SPEAKER_01

What's something Pilates teachers should be more aware of?

SPEAKER_00

I think I mentioned this earlier. They should be aware that everyone is different and their needs are different.

SPEAKER_01

One thing the Pilates industry needs less of.

SPEAKER_00

Social media.

SPEAKER_01

And what has Pilates taught you about life?

SPEAKER_00

I think it's taught me that people are people are important. That it's not about me, it's about the people that are around me.

SPEAKER_01

And that's such an important part as a teacher, isn't it? That it should never feel like you can only do this because of me. Like we have to empower them to feel like it's them. And that's why I think this work works. So, you know, I heard someone say once, if you go and see a chiropractor or a physio, you're sort of putting yourself in their hands. Whereas I always think our work, like you pay a lot of money for it, you turn up and they do the work, but we have to help them have that empowerment in themselves and not make it about it's only when you do it with me that you can do this.

SPEAKER_00

I I agree. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Well, Alan, thank you. This has been an absolute joy. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been a pleasure. Brilliant. Thank you so much.