Its All Write

It's All Write to Hate the First Person

• It's All Write • Season 1 • Episode 2

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Ariana and Meryl sit down with Maisy Card, award-winning author of These Ghosts Are Family. They share takes on first person narratives, audiobooks, day jobs, dialect, favorite ways to procrastinate writing, and much more.

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Maisy Card

Maisy Card is the author of the novel These Ghosts Are Family, which won an American Book Award, the  2021 OCM Bocas Prize in fiction and was a finalist for the PEN/Hemingway Award for Debut Novel, The Center for Fiction First Novel Prize, and the LA Times Art Seidenbaum Award for First Fiction. Her writing has appeared in The Paris Review Daily, AGNI, The New York Times, Guernica, and other publications. Maisy was born in Portmore, Jamaica, and raised in Queens, NY.  She’s currently a public librarian and lives in Newark, NJ.

www.maisycard.com

Find These Ghosts are Family at Bookshop.org, Simon & Schuster, or at your local bookstore or library.

Listen to Maisy's Audbile Original story in Lover’s Rock.

Follow Maisy on Twitter @dracm and Instagram @librarylovefest.

Keep an eye out for Maisy's next novel Difficult Patrons set to be released in 2026.

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Email us at itsallwritepod@gmail.com.

Maisy:

if you're, from a colonized country, especially if you're black, especially if you're affected by slavery or like the Holocaust or some mass historical, catastrophe., The records aren't accurate. People have a lot of trauma and pain and they don't like to say things plainly. They like to sometimes cover it up in, in like myth or something more palatable. Part of what you do is get to that subtext to get to the truth. And, I think that's always what storytelling is to me.

Ariana:

i'm Ariana McLean.

Meryl:

I'm Meryl Branch Mc Tiernan

Ariana:

you're listening to. It's All Right. A podcast about the writing life and those who live it.

Meryl:

On today's podcast, we'll be talking with Maisie card, an award-winning novelist and librarian who currently lives in Newark, New Jersey. Her debut novel is called These Ghosts are Family and she's been my friend for 18 years.

Maisy:

Thanks for having me.

Ariana:

Would it be weird if we, if I started asking about your friendship and how that began or blossomed?

Meryl:

Sure.

Maisy:

well, I was looking for a place to live. I was at the MFA program for Brooklyn College, and commuting from Queens was like very stressful. And I had a childhood friend, as a friend that I've known since seventh grade who was friends with Meryl, independently of me. Meryl, was in like a kind of a five bedroom apartment, it had two little small rooms and they usually rented out two, the two small rooms to one person. But the friend talked her into letting you know, us both rent each room. Yeah, so that's how I, we moved in and became roommates

Meryl:

And um, when Kathleen was trying to sell me on the idea of bringing Maisie in, she was like, she loves cats and books and writing. And then I think I didn't, we didn't know at the time. We both loved drinking. So we started going to the bar every night, became regulars at several bars.

Maisy:

Yeah. And we've continued our drinking, reading books, cat loving friendships since then.

Ariana:

this is the five year anniversary of the publication. Oh yeah. Of these ghosts are families. So congratulations.

Maisy:

Thank you. Thank you.

Ariana:

How does it feel that your baby's now like a 5-year-old in the world?

Maisy:

It's still, I'm happy that it's still like out there, that people still seem to be reading it and talking about it. Which I didn't expect. And yeah, after a while you kinda get sick of it, just because it. It's, it was so long ago that you start to forget, what you were thinking and what you were doing when you were writing the book. But, I'll come back to liking it again.

Meryl:

Do you wanna tell your audience what it's about, the book?

Maisy:

Sure. It's a, These Ghosts are Family is a family. It's a family saga, Jamaican family saga. It follows the Paisley family between Jamaica, England and New York over maybe about 400 years. But the brunt of it takes place in present day New York. The inciting incident of the novel is this character, Abel Paisley getting ready to confess that when he was younger he faked his own death and he's been living under his dead friend's identity for three decades. And so the rest of the book, it's more of a novel in stories and it follows a different relative or somebody who was affected in some indirect way by his or some other family members' decisions.

Ariana:

I love a novel and stories, that's my jam. But also I feel like you play around a lot with structure, form perspective and point of view in all the stories. And for, a, I would say it's like an average sized novel. I there's a lot of variation. Where do you think your concept of storytelling either comes from or what inspires you to or like what do you think story is?

Maisy:

I think this book was me figuring out how to tell a story. experimenting with how to tell a story, what constitutes a story, what constitutes a satisfying story. And I think for me, I am very influenced by like memories and other people's storytelling, a lot of it was inspired by stories that my family has told me. That's something I was always fascinated by, when, especially like family history and genealogy, it's like figuring out the real story based on hearing the bits from all these other people and then piecing it together and getting at the truth. So that's what I wanted the book to feel like., You know, That's how you learn about family history. Especially if you're from a colonized country, especially if you're black, especially if you're affected by slavery or like the Holocaust or some mass historical, catastrophe. The records aren't accurate. People have a lot of trauma and pain and they don't like to say things plainly. They like to sometimes cover it up in, myth or something more palatable. Part of what you do is get to that subtext to get to the truth. And, I think that's always what storytelling is to me.

Meryl:

I know there was one story in there that you used to call the cop story, I think it's called like what The lamb and

Maisy:

"the lamb or the lion." Yeah.

Meryl:

And that you were working on for since college, right? Yeah. Yeah. How did you finally crack that story

Maisy:

I think having a deadline helped. It started out as an essay. That I wrote about my father when I was in college. And then over the years it became more fictionalized during the MFAI turned it into a story. Yeah. And I just was never satisfied with it. I probably have I dunno, like 30, 40 versions of that one chapter or story as it started out. We sold the book with a version of that story. But it bothered me, I just, in my mind I was like, this is so not good. This is not good. This is not good. And so it did help to have an editor actually look at it Christine Pride was my editor for this book. During the editing process, I just told myself I have this deadline, I have to figure it out, or it's gonna be in print. So I just had to keep going. And I think I was like,, I remember emerging, just covered in sweat when I actually finished that story. But I don't know, I just, I think just knowing that I had to figure it out helped.

Ariana:

I'm curious, I know you are working on a second project, how has working on this new book differed or what have you brought from the first experience to the second experience?

Maisy:

This is a bit different because I think this is a more linear story. I think this book is literally more about me, even though it's still very fictionalized because I don't think I could write a straight true to life story. I think it you make up stuff to amuse yourself so, yeah. But I think this is more based on like real experience, the linear novel. it's in the first person. and I hate writing in the first person, and it's been a struggle for me, but I

Meryl:

why do you hate writing in the first person?

Maisy:

I don't know. I was just like, who cares about my dumb voice? You know what I mean? I, I really, I enjoy third person I enjoy or I enjoy doing first person in a voice that's very different than mine. Yeah. I'm like, I'm an 18th century slave. You know what I mean? It's but it feels

Meryl:

too personal when you're saying that it feels too personal. And I'm like,

Maisy:

oh, this can't be interesting when it's me, when it's just my voice. this novel I think is a bit more humorous. I think for me, the humor is what makes it readable, and helps me with the like, cringe factor of having to write in my own voice.

Meryl:

I only write in the first person most. I don't wanna say only, but 95%. Writing for me is getting the stuff from my head out, so it just is natural to me And I also prefer reading first person. I like the feeling of being very intimate and very close to someone. So I feel like that's what I wanna put on the page too. Mm-hmm.

Ariana:

So I know in this book, and in other writings of yours, you use dialect and you write it out like phonetically, and some people love it, some people hate it. What do you think that brings to a piece?

Maisy:

I feel like I've been trying not to use the word authenticity, but I guess that's what it brings. It just makes sense for Jamaican people to talk Jamaican, so it's it's, why would people be in Jamaican, not be speaking Jamaican? It's, It's a reflection of how the world has changed where. We don't all have to reformulate ourselves to make ourselves palatable to the American gaze anymore. And I think it helps people get more invested into the world of the characters, when they realize that it is a world that's different than their own.

Ariana:

A term that I came across when I I was teaching English composition and I was at a university that has a lot of first generation Americans and first generation college students, and trans languaging is like a big word. How

Maisy:

do you, How do you uh, define that?

Ariana:

As I understand it, it's utilizing your native language with English being able to go between a Spanglish for example. Oh yeah. Or

Maisy:

I think we used to call it creol creolization of language.

Ariana:

Yeah. And it's just, and I think it's similarly like just being able to be your most authentic self allowing the characters to be authentically themselves without having to translate everything.'cause a lot of times like even when I'm reading, if things aren't translated and it's a language, I don't know usually you can pick it up through context clues and also,

Meryl:

or look it up

Ariana:

or look it up and it makes you more involved in the story and in the culture or the place of the story. And it's crazy'cause this idea of American culture is, was crafted. It, it didn't exist like white supremacy is something that has been intentionally created and distributed.

Maisy:

Yeah. Like, That's why I wrote this book. It was just so bizarre that, I grew up in New York. I grew up in Queens. I grew up with people whose parents who either weren't born here like me, or their parents weren't from here. And it's like we were the majority, but at the same time, you go to school and it's like you don't exist, right. And there's no nobody around you. Outside of the, those cultures have any idea, like anything about your culture, but you know everything about them, I noticed in workshops sometimes. I'm a librarian, but I have taught a lot of workshops. People still will italicize foreign words and I am trying to encourage them not to do that anymore.

Meryl:

Do you wanna tell us about how you got your agent?

Maisy:

So it was a non-traditional way, I would say. I don't write essays very often but I did write an essay for Lenny Letter, the defunct publication, Lena

Meryl:

Dunham's newsletter.

Maisy:

Yeah. I had, I wrote an essay. It was about why I haven't introduced my boyfriend, who's now my husband to my mother and Monica Odom, who's my agent, read it and and she just emailed me and asked me what I was working on. So I had maybe half, maybe not even a full, maybe half of these Ghosts are family written out. I sent her those five chapters and we had a phone call and she agreed to sign me. Oh

Ariana:

yeah. How'd that feel?

Maisy:

Good, good. I feel like bad saying it'cause I was like, oh, it was very easy for me. I didn't send out any query

Meryl:

dream. I've sent up 55 queries on this book. 37 on the last

Ariana:

I mean, everyone says it's a numbers game slash a, it's a roulette.

Maisy:

Yeah. It's interesting because with trying to publish my first short story I sent out I think that I got like 66 rejections for that one story.

Meryl:

Which was the first one that got published? Estelle's Black Guy. Oh, that was the first, okay. Yeah.

Maisy:

It's I think rejections, yeah. Part of the game. I do, I think it did become easier trying to get published once I yeah. Thought of it as a numbers game. I was like, let's see if I can get up to 30, let's see if I get up to 40, 50, 60 submissions,

Ariana:

yeah. There's a, some writer was like, I don't count the publications. I just try and get to a hundred rejections a year.

Maisy:

Yeah. What I noticed like trying to adapt from being an MFA to writing on your own. Was there were some writers who just got straight praise, like I had never been in a workshop with them. Where everybody wasn't like glowing and gushing about their story. And then that person never published a thing and I've never heard from them as a fiction writer again. And that's not a criticism, but I just wonder, how much they got used to that praise. And when they started sending out a story, they got 10 rejections. They were just like, nevermind. Okay. I think a lot of people give up so quickly. And it took me like years, I think it was what year did I get published? 2018? No, 2, 20 20. I officially got published, I guess 2018 I got signed. But yeah, I finished my MFA in 2006 oh no, in 2009. 2009. Yeah. I started in 2006. It's been years. It's a long, it's a long, you have to play

Ariana:

the

Maisy:

long game.

Ariana:

what sustains you,

Maisy:

I think it's like a nagging feeling. Even like when I'm like, oh, I suck, give I'm not gonna do this anymore. Something always pulls you back in'cause you do feel like this is a part of your identity. And it does feel strange not to have a project, not to have a goal, not to have plans to ever write again. I don't write regularly. I don't like writing every day. I had not disciplined, I'm a big procrastinator. I'm very lazy, but I do know that I have to put something out there. Like I have to have something to show for myself. Sometimes it feels like you're doing nothing, it comes out to something eventually.

Ariana:

Do you have to when you do write, do you have to have a certain set up? Are you a hand writer? Do you write on the computer? Are you a music listener? I think

Maisy:

I try all those things right now. I think it helps to do the Pomodoro thing. 25 minutes on, five minutes off, if I have a real deadline. Like I'll honestly just lay in bed like a slob all day and just write and not shower or eat or do anything until I finish, but I think I'm working my way up to, taking it seriously and I don't know, having a routine,

Meryl:

how do you find the day job of Librarian? How does that work as a writer?

Maisy:

It doesn't, I think it helps me in terms of anxiety. Because you

Meryl:

have somewhere to go. Something to do. Yeah. Yeah. I'm

Maisy:

like, I can't, I can't beat myself up too much or get too much fomo or feel like too competitive.'cause I was like, I still have this other world that I'm a part of that I feel grounded in. So I don't have to fully commit to being a writer, which sounds bad. But I think I would just be too neurotic if I was just writing all the time.'cause I have, I have taken time off and just focused on writing. But I still, 90% of my time is spent in bed with my cats and drinking with Mar you know, it's not spent writing, so I just Right. No, I feel like

Meryl:

you're may be actually more productive when you have a job.

Maisy:

Yeah. Yeah. I think I have to like, realize I have to really use like weekends, vacations and think about how I'm gonna get a project done.

Ariana:

One thing that I thought when I first met you, Maisie, was that you are like a super researcher and so tell me about how research plays a role, in your life or your process for writing,

Maisy:

Originally when I went to library school, I wanted to be an archivist, you can't find any jobs doing that. So I switched to public librarianship. But, I love research. That story that we mentioned,"The Lamb or the Lion" it's set around the time when Haile Selassie, the emperor of Ethiopia, who's considered, the reincarnation of Christ for Rastafarians visited Jamaica for the first time. And so, I got obsessed with that when I read about it. And I read so many books on Rastafarism probably like 10 to 15. It's just fascinating and it really changed the direction of the book. So yeah, it's, even though this book that I'm writing now started as like auto fiction in a way, and it's not anymore, I wouldn't say, but it still somehow involves like constant research.

Meryl:

Like as far as what was happening in a certain time that you're writing about or just yeah, the bigger world. The context.

Maisy:

Yeah, exactly.'cause it's part of it extends into during COVID, And thinking about the significant, things that were happening during that time, pre covid. I did some hurricane research and like various things. One of the things I think my editor had said was oh, more atmosphere with like,'cause it's set in New Jersey and it's set in, part of it is Newark Patterson and you take for granted the spaces you walk through every day. So it's like actually having to go back to this park that I always walk through and look at this bust of JFK and like describe it and then think of research, like why it's there, who founded it, if there's something I want to bring into the book, all that stuff.

Meryl:

I feel like living in New York City, there's a lot of assumptions that like, everyone should just know this. And I feel like there is a question of how much to put in about place,

Maisy:

especially when you're in a city, it's it's everything is so dense. And there's so much to take in all at once that you miss everything. And then, when you're writing your job is to hone in on this specific detail. So you have to go back sometimes over those real places and break everything down and really. Kind of get the whole picture for yourself before you decide what to isolate in the, in your writing.

Meryl:

Right. Because I feel as people, we all notice certain things we're just the things that we're obsessed with, things we care about. And I think it, it can feel overwhelming to try to show everything or think that you need to show everything

Maisy:

yeah. Yeah. But you also have to be careful. When I'm showing Newark and I'm like, I'm not even from Newark, i've lived there for 14, 15 years. It's like what version of this place are you going to represent to the public who aren't familiar with this place, have only heard bad things. I wanna, right.

Meryl:

You're a representative of Newark on some level. Yeah. Yeah.

Maisy:

It's like you wanna be truthful, but you also don't want to play into stigmas and stereotypes and things like that. Representation matters. So that's a big responsibility. And then it's also like authenticity again. I'm being careful about going back over different spaces. Getting the names. There, there are the things that they're called, and they're the things that they're called by people who are from there. Right. And you have to make sure that you're using the right language, right? Yes.

Meryl:

The cool thing is though, that your character isn't from there. So it's that's, yeah. She's an outsider. Yeah.

Maisy:

Yeah. She just moved there.

Ariana:

I decided to do an MFA on a whim. I was working at a job where I was in an office overseeing commercial animation and there was a lot of waiting I was like writing in between because I was bored and I was like, oh, maybe I'll just apply to grad school.

Meryl:

I also was on a whim, but I, after seeing Maisie's experience, I definitely didn't wanna do it. I,

Maisy:

not that I had a bad experience I think I had a lot of anxiety issues. And I think I I remember there was like a year where I didn't do workshop. And so Merrill had a writing group with some people in Park Slope. So I joined that writing group for the year that I was not in workshop,

Meryl:

I think that things have changed a little bit since then, maybe. Yeah.

Maisy:

I don't know. I definitely think we're more aware of how destructive workshop culture could be to the creative process, and I think people are smarter than they used to be. We know what a microaggression is now. We didn't know what that was. 10, 15 years ago, nobody had ever heard of such a thing. So people said all kinds of crazy things. But yeah, I think things have really improved probably.

Ariana:

so what do you. Think makes a good workshop.

Meryl:

as a participant and as a teacher?

Maisy:

I think as a teacher, the thing that has frustrated me the most is when people aren't generous with each other. And I've only had this happen like in one workshop that I taught in, but it was very bizarre I think before I applied to MFA programs, everybody like, made those articles about oh, it's just like professional naval gazing and to made it seem like everybody would be like narcissistic and out for themselves. But it really, it rarely happens. I think most of the workshops, especially the non-credit workshops that I've taken and taught have people have been extremely generous and kind. I personally like not doing the Iowa method, I guess as it's taught, as like using critical response process, by Liz Luhrman, which is another method

Meryl:

Can you explain to those who might not know the Iowa Method, what that,

Maisy:

As far as I was taught, like the Iowa method is everybody reads the submission beforehand and then the author of the piece remains silent while people just say whatever random thing pops into their heads. And then at the end, the author gets like a few minutes to speak or clear things up. But it's pointless because the discussion is over. So there's, clearing things up is not really important or useful at the end. Critical response process was created by a dancer, choreographer, Liz Luhrman. And it's a way to get feedback on any artistic form. You're actually asking questions to the workshop that you want answers to. The workshop gets to ask clarifying questions to you or, they say questions without opinions and opinions are last in a critical response process workshop. And you actually have to ask permission to give your opinion on certain things. So I have to be like, Ariana, would you like to hear my opinion on your use of, lyrical language? And I'd be like, no, yeah, I'm good on that. You know what I mean? And you it, it saves a lot of time and it lets you guide the workshop towards feedback that's relevant to you. But I think the important part is to get used to workshop that's not driven by compliments or insults. So it, it doesn't necessarily have to be like, oh, an a co a compliment sandwich or anything. You could just focus on what was memorable about the piece. And that's not necessarily bad or good. It's, without an opinion, it's just, it forces you to be like, put a little distance, I think.

Meryl:

Yeah. I think the important thing is trying to help the writer get to where they wanna go, not where you'd like to see them go.

Maisy:

Yeah.

Meryl:

I think a lot of people go in there and they're like, this should be this. It's but I'm not writing that. Yeah. Fuck you.

Maisy:

Yeah. Yeah.'Cause it's I don't wanna hear your feedback on my Jamaican patois, like, when you've never, you don't know these people and you don't understand the culture. And I think that was a lot of what old workshop was. It was like, oh, why don't you just have them not talk that way? And I was like, that's not the option.

Ariana:

I think we should talk about the importance of writing communities,

Maisy:

I think a lot of people end up going to MFA programs because they think it's difficult to find that community without formal education. And part of the reason I wanted to go back to librarianship is that I wanted to bring like free arts to, different communities so that it's not a,'cause you, it does MFA programs do skew wealthier? Yeah. A lot of people go in debt obviously to, to do them, but a lot of people who are in them, are in them because they're having somebody pay for them. And I think it would be helpful for people to get the same quality. Same community, same education, but without paying anything. I do want to offer more workshops through public libraries fiction workshops, non-fiction, creative writing workshops. So that's important to me. Once I got published, I think I found like a bigger writing community than, honestly, than when I was writing on my own.

Meryl:

Do you feel though that these people, and are these people? Are they like real writing friends? Oh, wait, what

Maisy:

people, the community, like

Meryl:

the people that you've met after being published, do you feel like you talk to them about writing or you're more like in their social world?

Maisy:

I would say most people, it's like a kind of a professional connection. I don't know if that sounds mean. It's but we don't really share work the way that you and I share work or, like the people I, we still occasionally share with people in our writing group.

Meryl:

That's the thing I've always been dreaming about to be like in the the parties of the writers, but I don't know how many of them ex exist anymore. But you found some, but there's, yeah, there's a lot of,

Maisy:

Definitely a lot of partying. People invite you to things, but Yeah, I don't always go in and then when I go, I feel awkward and I'm like, why did I go outside? This is, Maybe that's why I stay as a librarian, because I think a lot of the things that you're supposed to enjoy. As a writer are like terrifying to me. Like the idea of going on a retreat or whatever you call it, like a residency or a residency, I'm like, I'm gonna be outside of my bed for an undisclosed amount of time and with nobody to talk to, with some random people in a house. And it just doesn't feel good to me, so I just don't apply to things. Yeah. I think literary citizenship is incredibly important, when you're a writer, and I think that's also something that people don't get prepared for. When you're in the MFA, it's like when you have a book published, then you have to you're begging for blurbs and then people are gonna start begging you for blurbs and it's you're doing in conversations you have to be a. You have to read a lot of people's books and do a lot of unpaid labor.

Meryl:

What do you think about the fact that your publisher, Simon and Schuster, has gotten rid of the blurb?

Maisy:

Oh, I think it's great. It's a lot of work for people. It also makes you feel bad sometimes'cause you're like,

Meryl:

oh, they got a better blurb, or no.

Maisy:

Yeah, when I asked people in the MFA program who I actually knew and were in my year who had been published, none of them did it.

Meryl:

They said no, or they, or

Maisy:

I never heard the response or they didn't respond. My publisher didn't give the details. But, I just got, these are the people who said yes to blurbs and they were never the people that I expected. And so you feel some type of way about that. Right. You know what I mean? So

Meryl:

And that's not a good way to feel when your book is getting published. You wanna feel loved and supported. Yeah.

Maisy:

So you're like, oh, these people never believed in me to begin with. So I feel like it's, yeah, there's a lot of opportunity to take things personally. And I think getting rid of blurbs helps, takes that off the table.

Meryl:

Is there anything you're reading now that you are excited about?

Maisy:

I've gotten really into audio books, which I never had any interest in.

Ariana:

I don't mind an audiobook'cause I'm also a slow reader. Also, some are performed really well.

Maisy:

Yeah. Yeah.

Ariana:

Meryl hates them.

Meryl:

I do hate them.

Maisy:

Yeah. I read them, I read the book and listen to the audiobook at the same time. On a high, faster speed. Oh wow. So now I feel like a genius because I can finish a book in two hours. Like a YouTube video on productivity.

Meryl:

So then you're speed reading.

Maisy:

Yeah. Yeah. You're reading it faster, but you still like, absorb everything.'cause you're reading it and listening.

Ariana:

It's like s what is it called? Sensory deprivation. It's I am only in this story. Yeah, I hear it. I'm reading it. I see it.

Maisy:

Yeah.

Ariana:

Oh man, that's crazy.

Maisy:

Oh yeah. I have a, I have to write a romance story for this audible anthology. Oh, it's called Lover's Rock. It was edited by the Calabash International F estival. So it's seven love stories by Jamaican writers. Ooh,

Meryl:

so it's available on Audible?

Maisy:

Audible. It's a available on audible. Oh. See, lover's rock. Rock,

Ariana:

now I'm curious about that. I'm like, how was writing for an audible specific story?

Maisy:

It was hard just because we had to write a romance, and that's not my genre, but it was fun to push yourself to do something that you don't normally do. It's like I had to find a way to make it fun for me. Um,

Meryl:

And you wrote it just the same way as if someone was gonna read it?

Maisy:

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Ariana:

So it wasn't like written like a play?

Maisy:

No it was, it's just a short story, but you do have to keep in mind that an actress is going to read it out loud.

Ariana:

Did you get to pick the actress?

Maisy:

No. They picked, but she was great. We have a similar background. Her name is Sandra Oakley. I think she was in one Love the Bob Marley movie.

Ariana:

Oh, okay.

Maisy:

Yeah. And she's from Queens too, cool.

Ariana:

All right. Shout out to Queens. We got two queens, Queens ladies here.

Meryl:

Is there one last thing you wanna leave our audience with?

Maisy:

Look for my new book in 2026.

Meryl:

Oh yes. Oh yeah. What's the title?

Maisy:

I don't know if I'm allowed to say it yet. I already posted it online. So d Difficult patrons. Does that phrase mean anything to other people who are not librarians?

Meryl:

mean, I would assume it's like a euphemism for fucking really bad.

Maisy:

Yeah. It's just like a library phrase. The librarians phrase. Like for for bad patrons.

Ariana:

I think of also patrons to the arts, which like board members and stuff that Yeah. Right. That control the money and control the art.

Meryl:

I think it sounds funny, like it puts you, it prepares you that it's gonna be like skewering.

Maisy:

Okay. Good.

Ariana:

Yeah. It feels like it could be a little satirical, little, a little I dunno, nudge, nudge, wink, wink. Yeah. Yeah. All right, that's, let's wrap on this episode. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Meryl:

We'll be dropping new episodes every other Tuesday.

Ariana:

If you wanna check out Maisie's work, we have a link to her website and where to both get her book and listen to that audio special. In the show notes.

Meryl:

You can find us on Instagram at It's All Write pod and you can drop us a line at, isallwritepod@gmail.com. Write, spelled W-R-I-T-E.

Ariana:

Make sure to, subscribe, like all those things. Wherever you get your podcasts, Tune in next time.

People on this episode

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Ariana McLean

Host
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Meryl Branch-McTiernan

Host
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Maisy Card

Guest