It's All Write to Leave it to Cleaver

WGA writer Riham El-Ounsi discusses hierarchies in TV writer’s rooms, an indie film about the porn industry in the 70s, and the distraction fighting powers of a Freewrite Typewriter. Warning: there will be some nostalgia & singing at the end of this episode.

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Riham El-Ounsi is a WGA-nominated writer and producer, primarily working in the world of game and competition series. She has produced and written for shows on networks such as ABC, NBC, and FOX. She also works heavily in unscripted development, creating and fleshing out game, travel, and lifestyle series. Riham has collaborated with companies like SMAC Entertainment, TurnerMedia, and Sony, to bring ideas from pitch to stage, like "Snoop Dogg: Presents the Joker's Wild."

In addition, Riham has also worked on the development of live events, working alongside Disney talent to bring interactive dance parties to LiveNation venues.  So far, she and her team have produced over 30 live performances across the US. 

Riham is currently working on her memoir, but most importantly, on herself.

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Follow us on Instagram @itasllwritepod.

Email us at itsallwritepod@gmail.com.

Transcript

Riham: 0:00

as people who work in TV specifically, we're always in the fiction. Even if it's unscripted, it's still not real. So we're always fabricating and producing

Meryl: 0:16

hello and welcome to the It's All Right podcast. I'm Meryl Branch McTiernan.

Ariana: 0:22

And I'm Ariana McLean.

Meryl: 0:24

This is a podcast about the writing life and those who live it. I'm also here to tell you, It's all right if the only writing you did was writing the Q 55 to Queens today, or if you're inspired by taking a gummy at an open mic at the coffee shop, or if you don't write during Mercury in retrograde and now you know you're back to the page. It's all right. And today we have a very exciting guest.

Ariana: 0:51

Yeah. We have Riham El-Ounsi who is a friend of mine, And she is joining us from Los Angeles. Riham El-Ounsi is a WGA nominated writer and producer who's worked on and developed game shows lifestyle series and more. Her shows have aired on all the big networks, including ABC, NBC, and Fox. And in her own words, Riham is currently working on her memoir, but most importantly on herself. Aren't we all? Welcome, Riham.

Riham: 1:21

Thank you. Thank you.

Ariana: 1:23

So I thought maybe we would start just how we know each other. Do you want to tell a little bit about how we've met

Riham: 1:30

Set the setting. It's December, 2013. We're working on this independent feature film independently. We didn't know each other at the time. I think we were at a warehouse in Brooklyn and you were working at the art department at that time. And I was transporting open tanks of gasoline uncomfortably. And then I think I just see this blur of human. Run past me. I think you were running something to like the art director. It was like one of those porn magazine covers I think

Meryl: 2:04

oh, I love, what was this movie?

Ariana: 2:06

A little side note or a footnote is the independent film we were working on was based on a true story of a man in the seventies who porn was illegal and he started selling it to make money for his family. So he had a two part life where he had the, the quintessential suburban family, wife and kid, but then in New York City he was selling pornography and then he started doing heroin and got into all that. It was a weird film. It was a weird project to work on.

Riham: 2:43

it was, but since that day we became really close friends. We bonded at the wrap party actually. And then I believe from that year on, we worked together on more projects than we didn't work together I say and then we built this like little production family

Ariana: 3:03

So let's fast forward You joining the WGA would you like to share how got into the writing of television

Riham: 3:12

I'd started off I'd started off working on the producorial side mainly in game shows. And it wasn't until I got on the a hundred thousand dollars pyramid and met David who was also the head writer at the time, and I believe still might be. We had maintained a pretty good relationship and he knew that I had wishes and dreams of becoming a writer, but I just didn't know how to start really. I'm, as you can tell, I'm not really great with my words. I have to like stop and like think about it. So it's easier for me to write things down. It's a little bit more concise to get my thoughts streamlined

Ariana: 3:52

I am the same

Meryl: 3:54

Yeah, same here.

Riham: 3:55

Hashtag neuro spicy. People always forget autism is a communication disorder. So a lot of the times that I'm trying to convey what I'm thinking up here, it doesn't necessarily come out exactly as I wanted it, but when I have time to sit and write, I have time to stop and think about exactly what I wanna say in a very specific way so that it's not misconstrued. But regardless of all that, David knew that it was something that I was passionate about. I'm a voracious reader. I love books. And he knew that he was about to be staffing for Cash Cab. And this was in 2019? Yes, 2019. So before the pandemic. And at the time, Cash Cab was not a guild. Not a guild show. It was like guild adjacent. So even though you can have your insurance through the WGA by working on Cash Cab, they didn't give you like the residuals or any of the other things expect from a guild show. It was really lucky because a lot of people work to get their WGA card for so many years without any luck, and mine was the right place, right time I thought it was a joke at first when I received the invitation to apply. To become a Guild member. I was like, this is impossible. This is my first show, like my first show as a writer this must be spam. And I asked David and he said, no, this is legitimate. And then I come to find out that there's strength in numbers. So the more guild writers you have on your team, the bigger the fight. And

Meryl: 5:37

I am wondering have you seen many benefits besides the health insurance for being a member and have there been any like negatives from being a member?

Riham: 5:45

So it's hard to say You Bet Your Life with Jay Leno was a guild show and College Bowl was also a guild show. And those are the only two that I saw any residuals from, which that's like the biggest benefit for me would residuals. However, there have been instances where on one of the shows that I was working on, they were not paying the writers adequately because there's two different lines for payment. So if you're like an audience participation quiz writer, that's a different minimum versus a comedy writer on the same show, it's a completely different minimum. So we ended up actually going to court. So that's the benefit of the Guild. We had lawyers on our side and this was maybe three years after we wrapped. And nobody had seen any residuals. They actually knocked us out of our health insurance because we didn't qualify for because of the lack of residuals. And so the lawyers got involved, we ended up winning the court case and all of the writers got like back pay of what they should have been paid. So that was a benefit of it. However, it also, I feel like it burned bridges, even though it wasn't us doing any of that, that they changed the whole writing team the next season that came about. And it just goes to show like you can put your heart and soul into something and really work hard, and at the end of the day, doesn't matter because they'll just replace you next year.

Meryl: 7:21

Beautiful. I love America.

Riham: 7:23

she laughed uncomfortably

Ariana: 7:25

/And just some context could you explain a little bit what it's like being a writer for a game show

Riham: 7:30

Yeah. So it depends case by case on what the show is. So primarily for me, I've become like a trivia writer which is great because I have a degree in history, so I'm really used to doing research. I was gonna be a lawyer, you guys I'm really happy. do that.

Meryl: 7:47

Yeah.

Riham: 7:48

But my research background has helped getting my questions pinned as they call it, because you have to have it so that it's not an open-ended answer. You have to phrase your questions in a very specific way so that nobody says actually that answer could have been. so for, let's say for the show, You Bet Your Life that one we shot 180 episodes. And it's supposed to be fun, right? Nobody wants to watch really boring, bland game shows, they're fun. So sometimes you mix comedy in with them. Specifically, like for Jay Leno, all of our fourth answer had to be like a throwaway. I remember one of my, one of my favorite throwaway answers, we were talking about Danny Trejo and what movie was he in? And the movie was Machete. But all of the questions had to do with all of the answer choices, sorry, had to do with like different sharp objects. So one of them was saw, the other one was Machete, and then the last one was Leave It to Cleaver, which I just made that up. And I remember feeling so proud of myself because it was the first time that the head writer was like, I really like this one

Ariana: 9:03

I'm imagining you as like marvelous Mrs. Maisel cause she she gets to be a writer on a show and and the sexism is amplified'cause it's the sixties, but, all that shit still exists. So it's all these guys and just her and no one's taking anything. She says and then there's like that one that she gets.

Riham: 9:23

That's exactly how I felt. And it, that has not changed by the way, that whole thing of not being heard or listened to. I can't begin to tell you how many times I've made a suggestion and it's completely ignored. And then a male counterpart will make the exact same suggestion, if not verbatim. And they're like, what a frickin great, sorry. What a great idea. And I'm like, I said that if not seven seconds ago and you guys completely ignored it. So is it'cause I don't have a pen. I don't know. it is

Meryl: 9:58

it is.

Riham: 9:59

They also treat you like an assistant.

Meryl: 10:02

And so were you a staff writer?

Riham: 10:04

Yeah. Staff writer

Meryl: 10:05

i've heard that there's some hierarchical, like you're not allowed to, or you're not encouraged to speak that often depending on where you fall in the hierarchy. Did you find that?

Riham: 10:16

I was told to stay in my lane once by one of the head writers. And then basically was not allowed on set for the next three days,

Meryl: 10:27

you were grounded. You were in detention,

Riham: 10:29

Yeah, I remember, I still remember it. It was Wednesday, August 18th, and I remember thinking to myself, what is this punishment? I, all I did was make a good suggestion, but here's the thing. At the end of the week, they were like, can you come back to set? We really need you. And I was like, yeah. I don't make suggestions just to make suggestions like they're coming with purpose,

Ariana: 10:51

and it's your job. You're doing your job

Riham: 10:55

Yeah. Suffice it to stay. I never worked with that person ever again.

Ariana: 10:59

Good. Good.. I know you do other writing, not just game show writing you tell us a little bit about the other maybe styles or formats that you write in? What gives you, what brings you joy right now?

Riham: 11:15

Right now I just free write my partner got me this, I don't know if you've heard of the free write typewriter. It connects to the internet. Specifically just to send your work to your email. You can't browse the internet there. You can't see anything. But it's really cool'cause it looks like a typewriter. So it's perfect for somebody who gets distracted really easily. In addition to I, so I'm Audi, DHD, autism and A dHD mixed Together. they're polar opposites. Yet so many people struggle with life because of both of them.

Meryl: 11:47

Cool. So then, you've been writing your thoughts. Would you call this poems or memoir

Riham: 11:53

it's a little bit of both. So I started my memoir and I started it just as a way cathartically release what's been in my heart and soul for, the last 30 plus years. And I've been reading a lot more poetry as well, so that's helped rethink how I want to write. The Prophet is a book by Kahlil Gibran I started reading that and it's so beautifully worded, and now it makes so much sense why my father writes the way that he writes, because my father is also a writer. He's a translator, but he is really a writer. He gave it to me 20 years ago. It was in 2005 and I just now

Meryl: 12:40

That's totally happened to me before as well. It's like the right time. You're just like, oh, now I'm gonna look at this. And then you can't put it down.

Riham: 12:47

Yeah. So yeah, I've been more into the poetry recently. I, I would love to add comedy somehow. It's just sometimes it's so hard to get yourself motivated, especially when it seems like everything is going against you wanna curl up and do

Ariana: 13:11

nothing Yeah. We were me and Meryl always talk about trying to maintain a practice and'cause it's once you get into the, I don't wanna write, I don't feel like writing, but actually if I wrote I would feel better. And then there's that cycle and then I feel guilty that I didn't write, and then it's Ugh, I didn't write, so I might as well not write. And it just becomes like a snowball and it's if I, if you just sit down and do it, then you'll be

Meryl: 13:33

better. You can move on with your life and have a day and enjoy your life,

Riham: 13:36

Yeah. You know what I'm gonna promise you, Meryl and you, Ariana, I'm gonna do this starting tomorrow, I promise, As soon as I get up, I think the first thing I'm gonna do is I'm gonna sit down and I'm not gonna even use my laptop. I'm gonna use my free write. And may I suggest doing the same, but maybe just on a piece of paper instead or a typewriter if you have one as well. I think there's strength in numbers, so if we can help motivate each other,

Ariana: 14:02

Just like the accountability. Just having, knowing other people are showing up to the page. And I think that we spoke about this in the initiation episode about how. Me showing up to the page by myself, this is what Meryl said. I'm trying to quote you that you're, showing up to the page every day. Who cares? But at least if you're saying it out loud, if you have a friend who knows you're doing it, like it makes it have a little bit more meaning. Even though, we all have value, inherently our stories have value inherently, and I believe that. But obviously it's easier said than done to believe that for yourself.

Riham: 14:39

I love that. Showing up to the page Do you guys find that it's easier for you to write for someone else to write for yourself? Okay, cool. I'm not the only one.

Ariana: 14:49

I think'cause it's, there's no attachment to it the way when you are writing your own story I've thought about it actually. Like we were me and Meryl earlier I guess it was in the fall of 2024, we were developing a TV show and we just sat at a bar and outlined the entire series or the season one season. And I was like, meanwhile I'm like still trying to get to page two of my own story. Right, right.

Meryl: 15:19

But money's a thing,

Ariana: 15:20

a motivator.

Riham: 15:21

Yeah. Unfortunately.

Ariana: 15:22

yeah. Deadlines are motivators. Money is a motivator. And I think when it's not your own work, I don't feel like it needs to the there's less of an attachment to it. So I don't feel like things have to be as perfect in a way.

Meryl: 15:36

Right.

Ariana: 15:37

And I'm looking at it more as a product than like an art

Riham: 15:41

Yeah.

Ariana: 15:42

We are recording from a a community podcast studio that's part of a bookstore that is having an event. So just saying that because we're here in New York and things are happening and it's not fully soundproof.

Riham: 15:56

Hey, all good man. We're,

Meryl: 15:59

all good. It's all right.

Ariana: 16:05

I'll tell a little story. One of the reasons why I or I think this heavily contributed to why I applied for an MFA program, which is where I met Meryl in the first place, was doing improv with Riham. And I think it was just showing up and being vulnerable and being in a space with other people who were being vulnerable and just having to think on your feet and be creative. It opened my mind to other possibilities and I was like, oh, I've always liked writing. I guess I'll apply for an MFA program. And everyone in our group at this we were at the pit. everyone had like a major life change by the end. Someone went back for their GED, somebody got a divorce somebody quit their Terrible job. And everyone just like it. It gave you permission. Not that it gave you permission. I think doing something scary like improv made you realize you can do other scary things or things that you were for some reason holding yourself back from.

Riham: 17:08

I think that's a really good observation

Ariana: 17:10

Will you tell them the funny story of our terrible scene work? There was one specific scene that we'll never forget.

Riham: 17:19

oh my God.

Ariana: 17:20

I think the suggestion was like Viking

Riham: 17:23

Yeah. It It was Viking. And what are Vikings? They rape and pillage. We know this.

Ariana: 17:27

yeah. And it me and Riham who are like the only two women of color and we just keep talking about oh yeah. Oh my God. We were a female viking group and we were like raping and pillaging men. That's what what we were doing in our skit.

Riham: 17:42

I was like, we were taking back the power. Okay. We were the Amazonian Vikings. But she stopped us so quickly that I think because of that, I had a really hard time in level three

Meryl: 17:55

cause you've

Ariana: 17:56

been

Meryl: 17:56

killed, like your creativity has been like

Ariana: 17:59

Granted, it was getting uncomfortable.

Riham: 18:01

It's like escalation of like really uncomfortable material.

Meryl: 18:06

that what's funny? that's what I would wanna see.

Riham: 18:10

And who knows? It could have been really great had she not put a stop to it full circle. We could have closed it with a really good ending, but we'll never know. Thanks, teach. This is more of an angry observation than a story as currently we are in political unrest around, not just here, but around the world. And there was a genocide that was happening and has been happening for decades. Most recently, there's been a light shed on it, and because of social media, we're getting more information at a quicker pace. There was a CAA agent who was pretty high ranking. I believe she worked with. A-listers like Natalie Portman among, Tom Cruise was one of them, I think. And she is of Arab descent. And she posted something in solidarity with the people who were dying on a daily basis and saying stop death stop killing man. Okay. She was asked to take that down and was forced to resign from the agency. Cut to a year and a half later. This person that Ariana and I have worked with in the past he is an executive producer for a bunch of shows that are on air right now. Well known, and he was reprimanded. For saying something very offensive to PAs of color. And to him, he was joking, and the people around him were like, that's not a joke. That's really offensive.

Ariana: 19:50

And he had a history of I think racist and sexist and prejudice things that he said and done on set. Like nothing was necessarily reported, but it had been talked about, like people talked about it openly Well, you remember when we had a staff meeting, so on, on this particular show. I actually was working in the writer's room Riham was a producer, and so the writers and producers always got together to go over material and whatnot. So we were having this meeting and he just walks over and puts his hands into my hair. I just froze.'cause also you're in a group of your coworkers and it's very uncomfortable and everyone is silent and staring and no one knows what to do. And it was very awkward. Many people did come up to me afterwards and was like, that wasn't right. But in the moment No one said anything.

Riham: 20:40

Did he ever apologize?

Ariana: 20:42

I don't think so.

Riham: 20:42

Okay, yeah. This is the same person. Here's the kicker. So that woman who was standing up for human rights no longer had a job. This person who made a group of people, including Ariana, feel uncomfortable was basically just given like a, oh, no, don't do that. And now is still, he's still producing a show right now.

Meryl: 21:12

Is there anything you're reading or watching right now that you wanna tell the audience about that's inspiring you?

Riham: 21:19

Yeah. I was, I'm really into adult animation and I recently finished this show called Common Side Effects. It's on Apple and it's it's a commentary on the pharmaceutical industry, and it's done in such a way that it makes you God, I don't wanna talk about being angry again.

Ariana: 21:40

You know what? Anger is not a bad thing inherently. It gets things done And so let's be angry. It's the year of an angry woman.

Riham: 21:49

That show is about how the government is trying to silence this one scientist And I feel like that is very much how we're living right now. So it's art imitating life and life imitating art in a weird way. I want to make shows and television that change the way people think about things that we've been so okay with just sweeping under the rug and just moving forward.

Ariana: 22:12

And I think actually in a lot of ways our podcast is very political.'cause we we're talking to writers about writing and writing right now is being attacked. Truth is being attacked, art's being attacked, We are speaking out and I think that shows the power of story in all its forms. And that's why, for me, it's important.

Riham: 22:31

They often say the pen is mightier than the sword, right?

Meryl: 22:36

So we'll show up to the page with our swords and keep

Ariana: 22:40

up to the page with our swords. And I am, I'm actually, I've gotten really into tarot card reading in the last few years and what brought me to tarot is actually the storytelling aspect of it. I find really fascinating both the histories of it throughout,'cause there's card divination in almost every culture and the stories, the images the symbols. And then you create stories through the symbols and images that you see. So there's like a lot of cross pollination of storytelling, which I enjoy. But the sword is the sword is one of the suits and that often is related to one, it's related to the element of air, which is related truth telling.'cause truth telling can, it can be very powerful like the wind, like the sword. It can be sharp. It can hurt and it can also protect, right? So it has all those elements, like literally a double-edged sword. And often when it comes up in readings, it can speak to writing as well, especially the ace of swords.'cause it's that one sword being held up with a hand and it looks so reminiscent of a pen,

Riham: 23:47

oh, wow. I didn't know that.

Ariana: 23:54

we have a studio guest today.

Meryl: 23:56

Angela's here do you want to say hello Yeah, come hello. hello

Ariana: 23:59

Angela, do you have any questions?

Angela: 24:00

I feel like you guys answered a lot or you answered a lot. Did you always, as a child, have these dreams of writing or did it come later in life?

Riham: 24:09

I guess it did start off as a kid. I. Oh yes, it did. I wrote this story I wrote, which was supposed to be a one page story, and my teacher said, because I wasn't listening, she deducted points

Meryl: 24:22

Oh my God.

Riham: 24:22

she was like you, the assignment is to write one, one page about anything you want regarding mythical, like creatures or beasts or something fantastic, and so I had this obsession growing up with the lochness monster and I still have an obsession with it a little bit. I don't talk about it often.'cause when you say it out loud, it sounds a little bit nuts.'Cause it doesn't exist.

Ariana: 24:46

Or does it,

Meryl: 24:47

We don't know.

Riham: 24:48

I so badly want it to, and

Ariana: 24:50

I think we have to live in a world where it can be a possibility for us to

Riham: 24:54

But I wrote six pages of it front and back, so 12 pages as a sixth grader but because of that time, I realized I do like to write and read about these things that are not in existence. Right? You're building your world. And I think as people who work in TV specifically, we're always in the fiction. Even if it's unscripted, it's still not real. Uh, so we're always fabricating and producing these, these things in life. And now it's just putting pen to paper to get to where you actually wanna be, which is hopefully a scripted writer's room for me. Am done writing for unscripted

Ariana: 25:35

time for transition. Um,

Riham: 25:38

Who knows? Maybe that's the next step. If I had parting words for this just right to change the world.

Meryl: 25:46

Thank you so much for being here. RIham.

Ariana: 25:48

Thank you.

Meryl: 25:53

Thanks for listening to, it's all right. We'll be dropping new episodes every other Tuesday. You can find us on Instagram at It's All Write pod and you can drop us a line at, isallwritepod@gmail.com. Write, spelled W-R-I-T-E.

Ariana: 26:09

make sure to, subscribe, like those things. Wherever you get your podcasts, tune in next time.

Riham: 26:22

Honestly, since I saw the title, all I've had was the Saved by the Bell theme song Stuck in my head

Meryl: 26:30

cause doesn't he say it's all right cause I'm save by the Bell oh, maybe we could do something with that. It's saved by the, it is. All right.

Riham: 26:38

because I'm saved by the, and it's the person who you're interviewing.

Meryl: 26:43

I like this. This is good. It's all right'cause I'm saved by the pen. Ooh,

Riham: 26:49

Ooh that's really good. 10 points for Gryffindor