It's All Write to Draft Your Novel on Post-Its

Camille Boxhill talks about writing while Black, dating in the age of AI, and attending a writing residency with near puritanical rules. 

Camille Boxhill is a writer of Jamaican descent who tells stories about legacy, identity, and the kind of multigenerational ghosts that don’t always stay in the past. Her work weaves the supernatural with the everyday, drawing on Jamaican folklore. She’s enjoyed support and recognition from Iowa Writers’ Workshop Summer Program, Tin House, Yale Writers' Workshop, Renaissance House, and  Hurston/Wright Foundation. Camille holds an MA in Creative Writing from the University of Bristol and is a 2024 South Arts Literary Arts Florida Fellow. Her work appears in What We Are Becoming from Hub City Press, and she’s currently at work on her debut novel.

Follow Camille on Instagram @camilleboxhill.

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Follow the show on Instagram @itasllwritepod.

Email us at itsallwritepod@gmail.com.

Transcript

Camille: 0:00

I tried dating last fall and I had a really bad date and he was very obsessed with my being a writer in a way that really made me uncomfortable. He was always talking about my writing and I was just like, Ooh, can we just not? And during the date he revealed that he was so concerned with impressing me because I'm a writer, that he used chat GPT for all of our text conversations

Meryl: 0:24

Wow. Hi, am Meryl Branch Mc tiernan.

Ariana: 0:32

Hi,

Meryl: 0:32

I am

Ariana: 0:32

Ariana McLean and you're listening to It's All Write.

Meryl: 0:36

A podcast about writers

Ariana: 0:38

and the writer and the writing life. On today's episode, we are talking to Camille Boxhill She earned her MA over in the UK at the University of Bristol, and we met at the Hurston Wright Foundation Writers' Week held at Howard University. Today Camille is joining us from Southern Florida to chat with us about her writing life about all the things she's applied for and where she's at, working on her debut novel. Hi Camille.

Camille: 1:07

Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

Ariana: 1:10

Camille was a 2024 Florida Fellow of Literary Arts.

Camille: 1:14

Yeah, it's a mouthful. I can't I don't think I've ever really gotten used to saying it. So South Arts. Literary Fellow for the state of Florida, So basically South Arts is an organization focused on visual and written storytelling in the southern states and they selected a fellow from each state And so I was just grateful to have that.

Meryl: 1:37

Could you tell us what that entails?

Camille: 1:39

Sometimes it feels like I'm cosplaying as a writer when I say oh, I'm a writer. And it's just so where are your lists? Where can I read your work? And I'm like, oh, I'm a writer, but I'm not there yet. And, but this is, this was one of the times that I felt like I actually got to. Be in that writer world and people were like, yeah, you are a writer. And so all of the fellows were published in an anthology, and then we went to the Mississippi Book Festival. And that was essentially my first writer's appearance. And we all sat on a panel, which was terrifying for me. and then we did a book signing, which again, just felt like i'm playing dress up and I'm at a table doing book signings, but there were people who were there and asking questions and interested in my writing and it just felt weird, but also okay, this is why I want to do this. Because people care about what you're writing.

Meryl: 2:32

Amazing.

Ariana: 2:33

I feel like Meryl often has these fantasies about, she has like these fantasies of this writer's world where you're like signing books and going to parties and it seems like you got a little taste.

Camille: 2:44

Yeah, it was a little taste and I want more of it and then also I think it's fun. It's fun going to these places and seeing authors so I went to a reading at Prairie Lights in Iowa City when I was there for a summer workshop and Kaveh Akbar was there and he he facilitated like a discussion and I ran into him at the was it Miami Book Festival, and I was passing and he was like, oh, hey. And I had one of those moments. I was like, oh my God, you remember me? That's so sweet. And yeah it's nice to feel like you're taking little baby steps and breaking into this world. And it is nice to be a recognizable face in a sea of faces at some of these book festivals. And so that's nice.

Meryl: 3:33

So Ariana mentioned you're working on a novel. Can you tell us where you are with that novel?

Camille: 3:39

I'm staring at the printed manuscript. It's

Meryl: 3:42

Been there.

Camille: 3:45

It. Is there, I really thought, I'm gonna go to Staples. I'm gonna print this thing out and I'm really gonna get to it with the revisions. And so there is a first draft and I say it's trash. And I know that we're our own, toughest critic, but I did not wanna share it with my agent. She is begging me for this. She's I know it exists. Please let me read it. And I was just like, I do not want you to think lesser of me. Please just allow me to be in this space for a little longer. And a lot of it needs to change. And so I would say. About a third of it is stuff that I'll keep and the rest I have to rework and I'm in the process of reworking that. And so I can technically say that I have a first full draft, but so much of it needs to change. And I don't know, but there's people that are like revision's, the fun part. And I'm like, when is it gonna fun out?

Ariana: 4:33

When is it gonna fun up when you get it. I feel like there's a moment where you like something clicks and that's your, that's what

Camille: 4:41

Like, Ah, yeah, that, where is that moment? Because I'm like, I'm doing laps and I ain't run into it yet. And so I would love for the fun of revising to enter the room. Because right now it's just like sticky notes and highlighters and, and that imposter syndrome, I try to get into reading to motivate me into revisiting my manuscript. And then I read things and I'm like, I'll never write like a Donna Tartt or I'll never write like a Zora Neale Hurston as I stare at her book that's also on my desk. But then you think about it and those aren't their first drafts. Even with trying to remind myself that, I'll say that to writer friends, but I don't really extend that same grace to myself. I'm like, no, even on my fourth draft, it wouldn't sound that great. But yeah, the goal is I will hopefully see my agent. In June, and hopefully that will be a time where I can say, surprise, I have a revised draft and I'm excited for you to read it.

Meryl: 5:36

I'm curious, so you were able to get an agent before finishing your book?

Camille: 5:40

Yes. Which is, I feel like so much about my writing journey is not, traditional. And so I just apply to things. If I see it, I'm applying for it. If someone mentions it, I'm applying for it. Back when I was on Twitter and, looking at when it was actually Twitter. When it Twittering the right way I would, look for opportunities there. And so I ended up applying to this mentorship scheme that came with guaranteed representation and so I studied creative writing in the UK and when I got there my program is not what, it just wasn't what I expected it to be. And so I knew that I was going to need some sort of like supplemental learning or other opportunities to make my moving to the UK worth it. And so I applied to a bunch of UK opportunities and this was one of them. And so you submit a writing sample, you go on this mentorship scheme for about six months, and then you are paired with an agent. And so that's how I ended up getting an agent, I would say, with around like 35 to 40,000 words of my novel. And so that, that was great because I know that the querying journey is a journey and yeah.

Ariana: 6:58

I think, a lot of the things you've said are the epitome of why of our vision of this podcast. It's like we're all just trying our best and trying things out and sometimes it works and knowing that you're not alone and also that there are many paths to paths to writing paths, to publication paths, to getting an agent. So it's really great to hear other stories. Mm-hmm.

Camille: 7:20

Yeah, absolutely. I am grateful for all of the opportunities, especially the opportunities that they have for underrepresented writers or women writers because it's hard to break into these things and not really know what you're doing. And I don't come from, a traditionally creative background. I work primarily with like education, nonprofits and yeah, it has really been the strength of the community that I've built Not all of us come from a place of having tons of connections and so you do just have to build your way up and then you throw a bunch at the wall and see what sticks and it's what it is. And sometimes it's painful'cause not a lot of things stick. Some things be falling and that hurts. But then some things do stick and it's like glimmers of hope.

Ariana: 8:16

So me and Camille met at the, was it 2023 Hurston Wright Foundation Writers Week. And it was held at Howard University. And I'd say that was my first time in, in an all Black writing space, I think.

Camille: 8:34

I'm trying to think, I do think it was probably one of my first all black spaces in writing, moving from Brooklyn to UK I did not prepare myself for the culture shock of moving some from somewhere that is predominantly Black to predominantly white. And then also what that meant for workshopping my work. And so when I started getting into some of the more kind of racialized texts, like shopping while Black and the conversations got, they got interesting in a way that I feel like I, I probably should have anticipated, you just, I'm always Black. That's just how I show up. And so it's interesting when people react to your work and we didn't really have that in the Hurston Wright Where you felt like you had to ex, you had to go through this explanation phase before you could actually go into the work. And so let's explain what shopping while Black means, like we didn't have to dissect pieces of Blackness in a way that I felt like I might have to do in other settings which was refreshing and it just helped with not feeling as exhausted by the workshop process, which is already intense.

Ariana: 9:43

Yeah. And I felt like it, for me, it definitely was a thing that I was like, oh, I didn't know I needed this. Having experienced it, I felt a lot of validation and comfort that I didn't even know was missing. Mm-hmm.

Camille: 9:54

It was like the epitome of being in a workshop where it's like, Issa Rae, I'm rooting for everybody black. Everybody's I'm root for you girl. And they just, and you just get it. And that's not always the case.

Meryl: 10:04

What would you say was valuable about being in England for the

Ariana: 10:08

oh yeah. How, first of all, yeah, how'd you end up, let's roll back. a few steps. How'd you get to go to, so you are originally from Brooklyn now in Florida and then passed through London, or sorry, uk.

Camille: 10:21

So originally from New Jersey, but was living in Brooklyn. And when I shout out to my therapist at the time, because. Homegirl changed my life and really just opened my mind up to what was possible. And so she was asking, probing questions of what would I want to be doing? Where would I want to be doing it? And it took some massaging because my brain is like, well, I'm at work And my brain is just no, I wanna be a high achieving corporate girl. I don't want that. That's not what I wanted. That's not at all what I wanted. So peeling that back and I finally got to, I just wanna write. I wanna write, and I think I said I wanted to write by a body of water. And she's okay like what would that look like? And at the time I. My mom was just in remission from breast cancer, and so I thought I can't leave. And why I thank my therapist so much is that she asked me this question, blew up my life and it was what would you what would it look like to not be the child That always stays and I'm, that's essentially what I am, is like, whenever someone's sick, I'm here. Don't worry. I'm a primary caretaker and when she asked me that question, I was just like, damn, I guess I could. I could venture a little bit further. And by that time, all of the application windows for programs in the States had closed, but there were some applications still open for the UK and so I applied to a handful of schools. I got in and didn't tell my parents until I was in and matriculated like, Hey, I'm just gonna gonna go ahead and quit my job and break my lease and move to England. It is cool. It's cool. It's gonna be okay. And that's how I ended up in England. And when I got there I was like, what am I doing? What? Yeah, it was a bit of a culture shock, but that's how I got there. And it was great. I'm really grateful for the experience. I'd never studied abroad before and so it was nice to experiment and see something different and, yeah.

Ariana: 12:17

And so what were on then and what you were working on at in Hurston Wright, is that the same book?

Camille: 12:26

Yes, It's trying to. Avoid spoilers. So there is some Jamaican folklore and obeah, the very watered down version that I give is that, it's like Jamaica's version of voodoo or hoodoo. It's. Infusing a lot more of that, a lot more of the dark and like magical elements into the manuscript. Which also requires just more research on my part and more fun. I feel like it's one of those things that you, it's fiction, so you just get to make it up and so I trying to allow myself the freedom to do that. Then there is a love story in there, and I think I would, I was just like chronically single. And so I just skipped to heartache. I was just like, we're just gonna start at the point where things in the relationship go awry.

Meryl: 13:20

Oh, I um, tend to do that myself.

Camille: 13:22

Yeah. And my agent was like, let's not, and I was like, oh, you, oh, you want their story? I don't know, love honey. And so I'm like, at that point I just, I've been out the datin' game. I was just like, what are the butterflies? What am I supposed to, what am I supposed to write? And so that was, it's been a bit challenging. So definitely more of a love story in there. The dark and like magical elements. But it has changed. It has changed quite a bit and yeah, I'm excited for one day when I can have beta readers to actually,

Ariana: 13:57

I'm excited.

Camille: 14:00

you like sign me up. Thank you.

Ariana: 14:01

Sign me up. Oh, that's great. Yeah, I i've de, I've decided I'm gonna write a novel, so I just keep saying it. Right? If you keep saying it, it'll happen, right? That's manifestation.

Camille: 14:14

Do you primarily do short stories?

Ariana: 14:16

I have been, because a novel seemed like a, like too big of a mountain to climb. But I was sick of revising my short stories and sending them out, so I just thought maybe I just do different.

Camille: 14:30

Try something different. I also think, I think short stories are so hard

Meryl: 14:37

I agree.

Camille: 14:38

'cause it's so self-contained. Not that every line doesn't have to count in a novel, I just don't think it has the same weight as it does in a short story where it's just, it's doing such heavy lifting and you have this contained space and there's a lot you gotta do in that space where whereas with a novel, you have room to kind of breathe and ramble.

Meryl: 14:59

There's so much pressure I think on short stories. Like, oh, okay. Did that ending work? Yeah. Whereas with the novel sometimes I'm like whatever the ending was, who cares? I enjoyed the ride.

Camille: 15:11

Yeah. When I think of short stories, I'm like, okay, and where was the hook and what was the takeaway and the moral? And I'm like, Ooh. It just, it does feel like a lot of pressure.

Meryl: 15:26

Would you say that you're a plotter? Have you heard these terms, the plotter or pancer?

Camille: 15:32

I would say a little bit. A little bit of both. I have to have a general idea of, what's happening in the story the like. Letting myself go wild. Like the, Post-its behind me. That's, I started using Post-its because I, was intimidated by Scrivener, intimidated by Word docs and I was just like, I just need to be able to fill a post-it. And so that is the extent that I will let myself like ramble is however many post-its I can fill up. But I'm not typically a, let's just see where this story goes, kind of gal and feel I'm Too much of a type, a kind of control freak to let that flag fly. yeah,

Ariana: 16:11

its that your corporate girly coming out?

Camille: 16:13

it is. I need a little bit of structure. I would love to be a free thinker and be like, oh my gosh, whatever comes to me, like no. would drive me crazy.

Meryl: 16:21

So these these post-its, you write down what a scene's gonna be about or what the next move in the plot is.

Camille: 16:29

Yeah, like I will say a good third, at least a third of my book was written on Post-it notes because I just got so scared of the process. And I, and that's one thing with getting an agent before your book is done, it feels like there's a lot of pressure and, and then you get introduced to the publishing world. Not like deep in it, but a little bit earlier, especially like with the mentorship scheme and you're looking at, I think at my agency they, they showed us, the maid who the author assigned to her, I think it's Nita Prose, assigned to the agency and they showed like all the different versions of her books and all the ways that it would like in the different countries. It was translated. And so there became this kind of commercial pressure of oh, my book needs to sell and it needs to sell well, and my voice needs to be such so that it will, and then it just. It just killed whatever creativity I had inside of me. I could not write. And so I'd start with okay, I have an idea, and then it'd be a scene and then I'm filling these, I'm just filling these Post-its. And that was the only way I could write. this,

Ariana: 17:37

So you're writing in prose on these, like you're writing, I thought you were writing little notes.

Camille: 17:41

No no no girl it, is full sentences. It is. If I fill it, I go onto to the next one, and then I put my little story together and it's just, it's less intimidating than like an angry cursor, blinking or Scrivener and the, that side panel. Good grief.

Meryl: 17:56

And so at what point do you transfer that onto the computer?

Camille: 18:01

I'm like, looking at it now I would say once they're like full scenes, I'll start transcribing them.

Meryl: 18:07

I love that. I, so I have never tried that. I do sometimes go with a notebook, no computer, and then I like type it up later that day generally, but I can barely read my handwriting. So it's like I'm making up and it's like I've already thought about it when I was writing the initial draft. And then I look at the scratch and new sentences has come up,

Camille: 18:29

of it. Yeah. even a notebook can be intimidating for me. Like I, I don't know what it is. It's just when you get into your head and you start thinking like anything, any and everything I write. Is going to be crap. But if I write a post-it note and in my head I'm like, it's a trash post-it note that it's not that big of a deal.

Ariana: 18:57

What you been up to lately?

Camille: 18:59

Working full time., I had my revision call with my agent and she didn't realize that I had two jobs and she was like, oh, I'm never getting this book. And I'm just like no. I'm gonna prioritize it. That was April. Oh God. But yeah, I have a full-time job. And a part-time job both doing communications, one for an academic publisher and the other for an education nonprofit. And I will say that my full-time job is they are warming up to the idea of infusing internal communications with storytelling which is cool, but also wild to me because they hired me as a storyteller. And so when I came in and they were like, so we want you to work on all this strategy. I was like, that's cool. When I, when do I get to tell stories though? Like when do I, and so it has been an interesting journey of trying to get the buy-in of can we tell employee stories and have that be part of our strategy for engagement? And so it's writing adjacent not really the writing that I love to be doing.

Ariana: 20:04

And how do you, I don't wanna say how do you balance it all, but We've talked in the past about sometimes having a job forces you to write'cause you have less time. Like when you have all day to write. I I don't write for reason.

Camille: 20:16

Yeah. That's true. I will say that. I will. You're right. I will find everything under the sun to do except write when I have time. It does help to know that I've got like a good hour and a half after job two to do something so those moments of I've got an hour, what can I get done? I can usually produce something. I haven't been great with having a practice though, really having a daily practice or even a weekly practice. And that's something, as much as I love structure, I don't have routines, I'm just out here free balling. I'm just doing the best that I'm doing the best that I can with what I got. And so maybe it'd be. Nice to have some sort of loose routine where I could, actually set aside time to write because it does for me it gets the short end of the stick because once I finish job two, if I'm tired, I'm not opening, I'm another program or a book or a notebook. Yeah,

Ariana: 21:18

no, that's wild.

Meryl: 21:19

You're doing

Ariana: 21:19

three jobs.

Meryl: 21:21

especially if I feel like it's hard when you have jobs that are writing and using that part of your brain. You're like, oh my yeah. I've done this.

Camille: 21:30

Yeah. You've been writing, you've been looking at Word documents all day. You've been, and yeah. No, and it, it is a different type of writing, but it's just the time that I think to turn that part of my brain off to really focus on this. A lot of the times it's just not there. When they have icebreakers and it's what do you do for fun? And I'm like, what is that?

Ariana: 21:50

I don't. Yeah. What fun?

Camille: 21:51

We are out here working. I'm like, what things that I do? I had a very strong concerningly, strong, according to my mom true crime period where I would unwind with just death. Like I would just I think maybe he should look at something else. But I write dark stuff and yeah, but that's how I would unwind

Ariana: 22:12

What's a show that you particularly like?

Camille: 22:15

I was on a very strong dateline kick ever since I found out that Samsung tv. Samsung TV had a whole Dateline channel and it was like 24/7 Dateline. And my mom was like, oh my god, please. So Dateline, I love a 20/20. There was a show called, Phrogger, which I didn't know what a phrogger was. It is someone that inhabits a home, unbeknownst to the owners. So like just somebody living in the walls, someone living in the, and I was like, this is wild. It's not funny, but it is.'cause I'm just like, what do you mean you were in the walls? What do you mean?

Ariana: 22:56

The audacity,

Meryl: 23:02

do you get inspired by news stories or true stories? Does that make its way into your work?

Camille: 23:09

News stories? No, experiences and and stories from my family and retellings of things. Yes. I'm good for taking some sort of ghost story that my parents have shared and finding new, a way to put that in my work. I had a really I am laughing because of the love part that I have to write. I tried dating last fall and I had a really bad date and he was very. Obsessed with my being a writer in a way that really made me uncomfortable. He was always talking about my writing and I was just like, Ooh, can we just not? And during the date he revealed that he was so concerned with impressing me because I'm a writer, that he used chat GPT for all of our text conversations.

Meryl: 23:55

Wow. No. Wow.

Camille: 23:57

that made it into the book because. I couldn't make it up because I would've never thought that something as labor intensive as copying and pasting a text exchange and chat chat GBT is something that someone would do. And so that made it into the book as just like a one-liner of kind of the losers that my, my main character was dating.

Meryl: 24:19

It's so interesting because I feel like when I'm trying to connect with someone, i'm hoping that they will like me. So the idea that they would like a robot from my computer, that's just insane.

Camille: 24:31

And it was just so wild because he wasn't able to carry a conversation in person and so I was like, okay. I.

Ariana: 24:36

That's telling.

Meryl: 24:37

This is the future by the way

Camille: 24:38

It's, it's, you it's, it's, scary how much people rely on chat GPT. I'm like, not for dating, not for the conversations. That's wild. And but he was also very fixated on the types of things that I wrote about and my lived experience, making it into my stories, which it doesn't necessarily, but that had to go in because why would you do that?

Meryl: 25:01

Wonder. So bizarre wonder if he was attempting to be amms, but he was not

Camille: 25:06

Yeah.

Meryl: 25:07

that.

Camille: 25:08

Do you write about guys that you date? And I'm like, I don't even date enough to write, but like this. Yeah, I'm gonna have to,

Ariana: 25:13

it.

Meryl: 25:14

You made it congrats!.

Ariana: 25:21

I remember you telling me a story about a residency you did in I think Martha's Vineyard. Would you share a little bit?

Camille: 25:29

Yeah, so it was the Renaissance House. I don't know if it's still going on because the organizer has since passed, but it was. It was very interesting, and again I had deemed 2023 as like my year of writing. I was gonna apply to all of the things, and so I'd applied to this residency and it had more of a mom and pop feel to it, but unbeknownst to me when I was applying, and then after being accepted, I got this list of dos and don'ts, like no sex will be had in this house. No drinking, no drugs will be taking place in this here home. And I was just like, what did I sign myself up for after having already paid, like the money is gone, child. Like she got it. And so I was like, oh my gosh, what have I signed myself up for Usually when you see rules like that, it's because somebody was doing those things. Somebody was in that woman's house making love and walking around naked and doing like just wild things. There was so many rules that I was just like, I'm just gonna be a good writer girl and I'm gonna be in the house. The way that it was phrased, it made it seem, and Martha's Vineyard, I guess is small and like people do know each other, but it just felt like she's got eyes all over this island. So you're not having a pint at the bar and coming home.'cause she's gonna know. And so it's like like she put the fear of God in me.

Meryl: 26:50

So you literally weren't allowed to drink even off premises.

Camille: 26:53

Even off-premises. We, no, yeah, that was, yeah. She was not having,

Meryl: 26:57

As adults.

Camille: 26:58

yeah,

Ariana: 26:59

As adults,

Meryl: 26:59

like

Camille: 27:00

I don't care if you gro you came here to write and so there will be nothing. There will be no mind altering substances. You came here to write. But it was fun. And it was very homey because we stayed in her home with her, but yeah, it was definitely one of the more interesting residencies that I've done.

Meryl: 27:17

I love it. Did you get a lot of work done?

Camille: 27:20

Yes, because we had a man, we had mandatory writing time. I think it was three hours in the morning, just like, and no talking. I think one day, like some, I don't know, we weren't even talking that much, but she called from the other room are those voices I hear? And I said, oh my God, I will shut up. When you're like, you're not about to get me in trouble. Shut up. That what it was

Ariana: 27:43

did you feel like you were like eight years old?

Camille: 27:46

You did feel like you were living in Big Mama's house. And I was just like I'm just gonna respect Big Mama's rules because she doesn't play. But she's also really quirky and fun. She had this picture with a close friend and this Andy Warhol like album of photos and she's naked in a tub. And so she had fun, like she lived a good life. You know what I mean? So it was just very funny for her to be like, and y'all will not be doing the same on my watch. It was like, okay. Alright girl. But it was fun. It was a good time. I would say it's all right if you can't hit 1000 words, and all you can do is fill up a Post-it note.

Ariana: 28:30

Beautiful. Beautiful. That's our podcast. Thank you so much.

Camille: 28:35

Of course. No, thank you. This was fun.

Meryl: 28:43

We'll be dropping new episodes every other Tuesday. You can find us on Instagram at It's All Write pod and you can drop us a line at, isallwritepod@gmail.com. Write, spelled W-R-I-T-E.

Ariana: 28:56

Make sure to, subscribe, like all those things. Wherever you get your podcasts, Tune in next time.