EP 33 | You’ve been playing small and it wasn’t an accident

What if shrinking at work wasn't a confidence problem,but a design problem?

In this episode of In Her Words, I'm joined by therapist, coach, and psychological safety consultant Megan Reese for an honest, energizing conversation about why so many high-achieving folks hold themselves back at work and why it's not their fault.

We unpack the systemic forces that teach people to stay small: workplace cultures that reward compliance over authenticity, "executive presence" feedback that's really just code for conforming to cishet male norms, and the human giver syndrome that conditions us to put everyone else's needs first. We also talk about what it actually looks like to reclaim your space in your career, your leadership style, and your life.

In this episode, we cover:

• Why playing small isn't a mindset issue, it's a systems issue
• The problem with "executive presence" feedback (and what strong leadership actually looks like)
• How workplaces are designed to keep you compliant  and what to do about it
• Imposter syndrome as signal, not stop sign and how to work with your inner critic
• Practical strategies for career transitions, job searching without burning out, and building toward your dream without abandoning your responsibilities
• How to start your own business when you have family, debt, and real financial stakes
• The importance of reclaiming joy, rest, and unstructured time, especially when capitalism wants you exhausted

Whether you're navigating a layoff, quietly dreaming of leaving your 9-to-5, or just tired of being told to speak up more, this conversation is for you.

Resources Mentioned:

Sign up for the summer event series

Follow Roberta on LinkedIn

Connect with Megan on LinkedIn

Connect with Roberta on LinkedIn 

Grab Consciously Crafting Your Career Path: https://www.learnmindfully.co/store

If this episode sparked new insight, please consider rating, following, or reviewing the show. It’s the best way to help more people find and benefit from these vital conversations. Thanks for listening!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to In Her Words. This podcast is for women navigating through change, career, identity, motherhood, and just figuring out what's next. I'm Roberta Dembrowski, host of In Her Words and founder of Learn Mindfully. Each episode, I sit down with women who are asking big questions, navigating transitions, and trying to make sense of life as it shifts. You don't have to have it all figured out. You just need space to be real. Let's get into it. Welcome back to another episode of In Her Words. I'm Roberta, founder of Learn Mindfully. In this episode, I brought my good friend, Megan Reese, to have a conversation with the community. Megan is a therapist, coach, and corporate consultant who has spent the last 20 years helping people show up more fully in their work and life. This is a recording from a webinar that we hosted last week. And in it we talk all about the ways people often play small in their careers and lives. We discuss societal conditioning, workplace dynamics, imposter syndrome, and strategies for reclaiming confidence and authenticity. We also answer questions that people submitted ahead of time and asked during the call. If you want to join live for some more upcoming events, visit learnmindfully.co slash events to sign up. Thanks so much, and I hope you enjoyed this episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

All right. Welcome everyone. I'm so excited for you all to be here today. Today's conversation is going to be focused on you've been playing small and it wasn't an accident. And so we're the rundown for today is we're going to introduce ourselves, share a little bit about our background. We have some pre-canned questions that we put together. We also got questions from the signups. And then we're going to open it up, open it up to everyone as well. For those who don't know me, my name is Roberta. I am the founder and coach at Learn Mindfully. Learn Mindfully is a coaching and consulting company. It's really dedicated to helping people design work that feels good. It really honors who they are and not just what they can do. And it was really born out of my own experience with burnout, workplace burnout, a few years ago, made it all the way to executive level and just didn't find it energizing anymore. And so over the last five years, I've been helping people really design things that honors who they are, whether it's full-time work, solopreneurship, portfolio path, really. It's all for fun. It's all making sure that it honors you. So I will pass it off to Megan and let her introduce herself.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

My name is Megan Reese, and I am a therapist, a licensed counselor, and also a coach. I do some corporate consulting around psychological safety and neuro-affirming workspaces because I don't think that work should suck the life out of people. I think that what you do for your with your time on the planet should be meaningful and enjoyable as much as possible. So I do coach people similar to Roberta at kind of people who've decided they want to reclaim their time and their energy. So sometimes that means staying in a job and uh trying to set boundaries with it. And sometimes that means pivoting to something new or some combination.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Very cool. Preach, preach, preach. I'm so excited to dive in with you today. Um, so today's topic is all about playing small. And it's something that I see come up with a lot of coaching clients. And I know Megan also sees it with many of her clients as well. And so I'd love to kind of start by just naming what does that actually look like? How does it actually show up for people that we work with? Um, Megan, did you want to kick us off or I'm happy to start too? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

I'm like, I should be paying attention to my notice, my notes, because I took notes and I this might I might be jumping around, jumping the shark or whatever that phrase is. But um uh I have I sometimes get people come to me because they've gotten feedback that they need to have like executive presence. Um so there's that whole thing, which I think we're gonna talk about in another question because I have lots of feelings about that.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Um and then there's other, I mean, I just finished the Nagoski's burnout book, if y'all have read that book. And there they they call it the human giver syndrome. Um, and I really like that as a way to frame that some of us were sort of socialized to take care of everyone else's needs first. Um, so I see a lot of that. And um, I think in in my generation, like I was sort of like taught to just, you know, behave and and do do the right thing and like keep keep progressing in my career. And and no one ever asked me like what I wanted out of my career or if it was working for me or how they could help me get to that next phase. So um I'm not sure about answering the question, but what I used to say. Okay. So let's finish my coffee.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

So um I have my tea here too. So yeah, pretty similar. Um, I feel like the patterns that I often hear from people is one is the executive presence, which we will go in deeper because I have strong thoughts on that too. Um, I also hear in like I'll hear things like, oh, now is not the right time for doing XYZ, the market is not good. Who am I to go out looking for a job when there's so many people who have been laid off? And it's just like uh it's like an inner saboteur, sabotaging yourself when it's like, why not now? Just because somebody else is laid off doesn't mean that you can't find the right fit for you or start looking for you as well. Um, it's also could be not applying for things. We know that women historically usually like they're they need to feel that they meet 100% of the job qualifications before they actually apply. And so it's very common that they're not applying, they're not raising their hand for opportunities. Um, it's having the ideas, but not necessarily having the confidence to speak those ideas to others. So it can manifest in a lot of different ways depending on where you are and where you're coming from, for sure. I'm wondering from your perspective, Megan, are there specific conditions, environments, um, mechanisms that actually teach people how to shrink?

SPEAKER_02 6:41

I was just thinking recently about um what I what I see in what I have seen in tech and what I've experienced in tech about um what gets rewarded and uh and what uh doesn't. And I think that there's this uh um this bias towards uh execution or like delivery of stuff that sometimes um it is supersedes uh process. And so I think uh if you're someone who is a team player who likes to make sure that you know the the whole team is is working towards something and everyone's okay on the team, and I think that does not get rewarded. And I think, you know, like sort of that more cutthroat thing does. Um, so I think that can be antithetical to to like how some of us want to be in the world, which is really hard.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Uh thoughts it's an interesting time for this question right now because I'm actually starting summer classes. I think I shared with you, Megan, offline that I'm taking a class called a psychology of power and oppression. And so very much related. Um, I think that our workplaces like design people to shrink and to be controlled and to not have autonomy and to perform, and it's all about capitalism and outcome and profit and stuff like that. And so, with regards to that, what that happened, what happens is that a lot of individuals are rewarded by being easy to work with. They get the promotion, they put in the long hours, they're seen as being attentive, responsible, all of that. And so, like Megan was saying, like the helper syndrome is be basically being rewarded. Um, and on the flip side of that, you are punished for self-advocating, for speaking up, for naming things in the system that are broken. Um, maybe you do speak up and you see others getting laid off or fired or whatever for speaking up. That impacts you, that makes you more susceptible to remaining silent and like the system is operating as intended and it stays status quo. And so what I think happens is all of these things compound over time and these symptoms and signals start to add up, and then it ends up influencing your body, how you're feeling at work. You end up experiencing burnout, you don't know how long these things are gonna continue. And so um I think that each workplace is is different. There are many clients I work with who experience great workplaces, but many of them are not designed with the people in mind. It's designed around profit first, and um we're seen as like resources, unfortunately. And so really my aim when I work with people is empowering them to speak up for themselves and identify what they really want. Because it might also be in conflict with what the work, like the workplace and the environment wants for you as well.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Yeah, that last bit, and I think um there's questions that came from people who registered that that I really wanted to speak on the sort of figuring out what your beacon is. And you know, you just said it, Roberta. I'm glad we're going there because like let's really go there. If we're just treated as like as resources and you know, we're we're just come you know, part of the commodity of of the employer, then why aren't we treating not not treating the employer the same way? Why aren't we looking at this job as like, what can I get from this job that's gonna impact my life and my career trajectory, right? Like, and I and one thing I like to do is help like people who have to stay in their role for whatever reason, or like, you know, like this, that's just what makes sense for them at the moment. Like, what is it you can get from this place? How can you suck this place dry? Because you know they're gonna try to suck you dry.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I think a huge part of that is boundaries, boundaries design. Um, or even like usually when I start working with clients, the first thing I do is we explore their relationship with work in the first place because we often don't think about that, how we want work to show up for us, and then from there designing things around it, like boundaries and all of that. So you have the structure in place to make it look the way that you want it to rather than how the workplace wants you to.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

So boundaries and also what resources are available that you're not even thinking about or tapping into.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, okay, we're ready for the hot topic now. So um playing small is usually uh a common thing that we hear is that it's a confidence problem. Hey, you just need to speak up more, you need to take up more space, you need to negotiate better, have more executive presence. What is wrong with that framing from your perspective? Everything.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Whenever I hear executive presence, um, I basically believe that it is like cishet white male coded. Like the the request is for you to be more cishet white male. Um and it it drives me bonkers and up the wall. I've had people come to me, I think I mentioned this earlier. Um, they've come to me because they've gotten feedback that they need to be more, you know, have more executive presence. And I am never ever gonna teach a woman how to be more aggressive in the workplace. What I am gonna work with her on is how she can feel okay in those moments and how she can um work with her self-doubt and whatever's coming up for her and how she can be honest with what's in her body and and make sure her nervous system is regulated as much as possible when she is called to react in some of these moments. Um yeah, I mean, I I I think about um this team I was on where um there there were a lot of us who are really loud and we are like always sharing our ideas and whatever. And we had one member who would just once in a while slide in very quietly one thought. And it was just the thing that unlocked everything. And I always think like this was not someone, this was somebody everybody respected, but they but they uh they also um, you know, she wouldn't have been looked at for like to lead the whole group because she was quieter and and um didn't talk as much as everybody else. But when she did talk, everyone listened. And so I think I want to see more of that as being being what executive presence is, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:35

Like if we turn that on his head, an executive presence was actually listening and being able to to um to say the things that aren't named when when it's the right thing to do and when no one else will.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

Yeah, yeah. That resonates a lot, especially as a leader who is more introverted. Um, what I think really helps is really working with people and identify what motivates them and like how do they want to show up at work too. Because when people, when executives are saying, like, hey, you need to be more confident or you need to do this, they're treating the symptom. They're telling you the behavior they want you to change, but they're not actually telling you like what's the root cause, what's the purpose of this? And a lot of us are designers, like we're designing things, we're designing experiences, all of that. How do you want to show up for yourself? What do you want to design for your workplace? And for me, like, I'm sorry, I don't want to be like Elon Musk. I don't want to be like a lot of those like tech guru leaders, but I want to lead in a way that feels really authentic and sustainable for me. And so what does that look like tangibly, et cetera? Um, and so like I feel like I just have a strong believer that nobody should be able to tell you what your leadership style should look like, only you can define it. Yes, they can give you recommendations and feedback about how it's like what the outcomes are at work, but you want to feel good about the way that you're showing up at work as well. So it's really like if somebody gives you that that like feedback, like, hey, be more confident, I think my my recommendation is to get curious with them of like being like, well, explain to me what exactly are you looking for? What's the purpose here? Um, so that you can investigate it a little bit more and then figure out what works best for you.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

So yeah, and just to like, you know, add to that, when someone tells you to be more confident, and then there's like this like scrutiny around that, then how is that supposed to inspire confidence? Like then you have this negative association with how you're showing up at work, and then you become more self-comp conscious, and then and then you look, you appear less confident. So um, you know, to add everything you just said, also um, I'm not helping people work with their nervous systems because when they're like getting this harsh feedback or like being, you know, um monitored in that way, that that that's really antithetical to them showing up in in a way that that feels grounded and confident.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Absolutely. Yeah, and it could be gaslighting too. It could be corporate gaslighting that's going on where it's an intentional behavior that a leader or a manager is doing to kind of undermine and put the insecurities within your head. So um it's always great to have a coach or somebody, some trusted advisor that you can have these conversations with. So you can have like that gut check of like, am I like, am I going crazy or is this what's happening? Um and you can have a dialogue about it a little bit more.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

So I know I wanted to like see if I could throw in a little bit of like ADHD chat into this. Um, but I, you know, one thing I've learned about my own sort of sparkly brain is that I sometimes see things way down the road, like like I see I see red flags way before anyone else does. And so sometimes raising uh raising those when people don't want to look at them has got me in trouble at work. So then there's you know, then the gaslighting starts. It's like, it is it really about you not being confident enough, or is it about the leader who's giving you that feedback being really insecure because you say things that are really smart?

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And we say sometimes feedback is like a confession on the other person about what they're fearful of or insecure of. So I love that.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

I'm still I'm still not.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Um, in one of the signup submissions, we did have a question uh from a few people actually who said, like, you know, I'd love to work for myself. It's something I'm really passionate about, but I have some fears around things like health insurance, premiums, like I have a family. There's just other considerations. Um, Megan, I'm curious your perspective on that. How can people kind of balance going after their dreams and what they're excited about, but then the realities of family and other responsibilities as well?

SPEAKER_02 18:12

Yeah, I mean, I'm not gonna lie to you. This is hard. Like, and I and I want to hear you. Um, yes, I think it really depends on what it is you're trying to do. There, there are people who could quit their job tomorrow and their skills are so valuable and so marketable, and and companies that know that they need them, and and so they it it could be a really easy um jump to the next thing. So it really depends. But I would say um that if you yes, we we're living in a world where um our government doesn't believe everyone should have health insurance, so uh everything's running amok and that and that so I I don't want to um I don't want to downplay that. But you know, what would it look like for you to start building a little fund? You know, like maybe you have like a little secret secret savings account that you just start throwing money in whenever you can, um, and knowing every time you populate it, even if it's a dollar, you know, you you have a little mantra or or something that reminds you that you're building something else, like you're you're working towards a world in which you get to to run your your company, your business, yourself. Um and uh it, you know, if you're in a in a job that you you're not that happy, I said this already, but what are all the things you can get from this job before you go? Like um, you know, I wish I wish I had seen the writing on the wall of the last um layoff coming, I would have probably gotten some certifications before I left, you know, or some people can use professional development funds towards coaching, you know, start start the coaching now while you while you can. So um I I I I understand that it's hard. And I think there are lots of things that you can do that are in preparation for the day when you could leave. And every time you move towards that, it will make your feeling about your day job a little better because in your mind you're like, I'm building towards something else. This is just the means to get there.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Yeah, absolutely. Um, it ships the autonomy back onto you. And so when I work with folks, I often will co-create their exit plan for them. So, what's the vision that you're looking for? And then when are you looking to get out of there? Like if you have a full-time job and you want to leave, it's causing health impact, whatever it might be. But identifying like what's your number of savings, and some of that is like actually going through your bills and calculating your expenses and stuff like that. Um, and then it's also just saying, like, what can your nervous assistance system handle, like post-leaving the job too? Because fears will come up, they always do. And so, how will you feel confident once you're planning to navigate that as well? Um, so that's something that I intentionally do with folks that's really um helpful for them. And then I also like this is a spot that I'm in, right? I left my full-time job. I was 10 weeks pregnant. I had a baby on the way. Um, now I have my practice. I my son's 16 months old, and I'm in grad school and I run my own business. So I understand. Um, some of it might also be conversations that you have with your partner if you have one, if you're able to get on like their insurance or something like that. But there are uh tools out there that can help you if you are choosing solopreneurship and you're looking for things like health insurance or benefits or anything like that. So I would encourage people not to think of it as a black and white picture of like, oh, I'm working for someone else or I'm working for me, but is there some gray in there? Can we design what type of support you need, what the benefits might be as well? But um yeah, if you're looking to chat more about this, feel free to reach out to us. Um, happy to talk about that and what a plan might be for you as well. So um there is another question that we got in uh the pre-submissions. One was what are some daily practices if you have a normal life and chores, um, but you want to do your dream thing? Um I will answer this phrase because it resonates a lot. Um for me, this has been like a five-year journey of like this. I'm always a big picture thinking thinker, have the dream, and then slowly kind of chugging along. For me, a lot of it is about boundaries. So boundaries with myself, setting clear guidelines of like, here's what my day looks like. So I actually have a master schedule template. It's like with Excel, it's color-coded. I like highlight what my free time is, what my time to like do things looks like, time with my family. And I prioritize all of that first. And it's a container for myself, so I can honor it that way. Um, so that's really helpful for setting structure, and then I always try to keep my self-care time too, because that's what's gonna give me the energy when I have so much, when I'm juggling my dream and you know, my my just daily like baby, all that stuff. I'm a wife, I'm a mom. Um, so that's really helpful for me. Um, but I think it's really I it's designing what are the care rituals that you need for yourself and this type of support that you need, and also knowing that you don't have to be a hundred percent all in on your dream all the time. What does sustainability look like for you while you're building the thing? It could be a few hours a week, two hours a week, it could be one hour a week. But every time you're taking an action, it's slowly moving you forward towards what you're looking to do. So yeah, that's just what worked for me. But Megan, I'm curious for you.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

Yeah, I have some um, yeah. So everything you said, and then um I think this question came up from somebody who was saying that they're exhausted by the job search. So I want to like touch on that a little bit. So we have a couple of you in here who in the job search, and you know, I read exhaustive day of job searching, and my gut reaction was like, um, does anybody have to be spending all day doing job search? And I really wanted to get your perspective on that, Roberta, because I think you have um more concrete job search coaching um experience, but I don't I think like um that nobody should be doing that full time and nobody and and I think sometimes you're like, well, but I have to I might miss out on something. I think that there has to be a certain point in your day where it the productivity of doing that much job search starts to drop off because you're you're tired, you're cranky, or whatever. Yeah. Um so um, oh, I know, I know, Fiorella, yeah, it's it's it sounds terrible. I also think there's probably some other strategies that are more fun than than what you might be doing. But if you ever find yourself in a good mood, um I encourage you to make a list of all the things that you can do when you're not working full time. So um this is if you're in a job and you're and you could be laid off tomorrow or you could be leaving to do your own thing, or you're or you're in the job search, make that list. I mean, like what is it, like going to the museum, going to matinee in the middle of the week or a midday hike or whatever that is, like make a list or just like bake, you know, learning how to bake croissants. Because I think sometimes we wake up and there's this panic of like, I oh my God, I have to get a job and I have to do everything all day, every day to get that job. And and I I want to remind you that this moment we're in is not your forever. It's a small blip on the radar of your life and your career. You you you will come out the other side. And in the meantime, why not enjoy some of the free time? Why not sort of like come back into your body and reconnect to your joy and reconnect to the things that make you a human being? I think that when we are tired and disconnected from our hobbies and our passions and the people that we love, that only serves capitalism. It only serves the 1% for us to be tired and drained and disconnected. So don't forget to do the things that you love, to enjoy those moments of free time, to allow yourself to dream. Like you need some just unstructured dream time, you know, imagine and fantasy and all of that stuff. If you have a creative uh thing that you do, please do your create whatever that is, your your art, your music, your whatever, your writing. Um, so I just wanted to make sure that um people uh prioritize the things that mean something to them. You know, Roberta shared like her family and and and life and all what you know, make sure to prioritize those things so that you pay yourself first. I like to think of it as paying yourself first, right? Like when I'm in when I'm in good writing practice, that's the first thing I do in the morning before I do anything else, before any other meetings, before anything else, because I am a writer and I must be writing. So um I wanted to just just throw that out there too.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. Yeah, absolutely. Um, I help a lot of people through career transition. So um, one of the things that I usually recommend after it happens, one is just feel it, like if it was a layoff, you're going through a career transition, just there's a lot of emotions that get pent up. So give yourself a few days to at least process that. Then the next thing is usually designing what is your master schedule. So if you have a look at your week, what do you want it to look like energetically? What is the time for you? And then the time that you might dedicate to this search. I know some people who do it every day at the same time. I have some clients who are like, nope, Tuesdays, Thursdays, those are my days to job search. I do it for an hour or whatever it might be. But I always recommend like having some sort of structure because what happens when you are um underemployed, unemployed, going through a layoff career transition is that your structure of the way that your days used to look like essentially gets obliterated. And it can be very disorienting. You can start to question yourself with that much space, and you're like, what am I doing? Like, am I you there's like this pressure that comes, like, I want to make sure I'm using my time effectively. And people either, it's like your nervous system will get hyper-aroused and you just go, go, go, you're applying, applying, applying, or you get under aroused, which is like work, no motivation to apply, no nothing. And so having some sort of schedule will is really great to just kind of ground you, and you can always shift it based on how you feel each day. Um, but that's just one of the things that I typically will recommend to people. And it's a when we're talking about the schedule, it really is your form of boundaries. You're saying this is the time for me to do this action. Um, and then I also recommend people get outside. Like career transitions can, depending on how it happened, there can be shame related to it. And so we tend to isolate and really like just disconnect from others. And so go outside, get in the sun, feel the wind on your skin. Like it's just yeah, exercise, as Manhavi says. Like, there's so much go for a walk. It can be absolutely so energizing. I remember a few years ago during a layoff, I did Zumba classes, and it was like the best thing ever. So it may look different according to what gives you energy.

SPEAKER_02 30:11

Um I just yeah, I want to like button that up one more time. Um absolutely like what would it be like if you use this time to uh make the care of your body the most important thing you do? Like, what would it look like if you just said the most important thing I'm gonna do right now is take care of my mind, my body, my spirit? So um, you know, and regular regular moving your body and like getting getting your heart rate up, whatever that looks like for you, is the most the like the most productive thing you can do. Like, you know, if you you get like stuck and you're like resume, resume, and then and like you, you're you get all stuck up here, like and you and you go and you dance it out or take a walk or whatever, you notice that you're a little bit clearer, you're like your brain literally needs that. So, what would it be like if you just said right now, I'm I am the most important thing?

SPEAKER_01 31:10

Yeah, yeah, I love that. Um, so with that, those were like the initial questions that we had. We have an awesome audience here, and so if you have specific questions for us, please feel free. You can unmute yourself or send them in the chat, and we are more than happy to answer them as well. So um, and then we have a question from Jana in the chat. Can you speak a bit on overcoming imposter syndrome as a blocker to going after your dreams? Megan, did you want to take this one first?

SPEAKER_02 31:55

I mean, I feel like this is often like the core of what I do with coaching clients and and with therapy clients. So um there's not gonna be a quick answer that I can give you except to say, like, what would happen if you just went for it? You know, like can you imagine like like a a middle class cis white dude having the same question about like what what should I, could I, would I, right? Like, what would happen if you just went for it? And um, you know, the the sort of inner critic that comes up, like often there's real good information that it that it it's it's trying to protect you, it's it's trying to prepare you. So, you know, maybe there are nuggets that it it has for you, but that doesn't, but if you can um learn to work with it, which is a lot of what I do with clients, then you can learn to to let it inform you as like one of the consultants on your team, but it doesn't get to take over, it doesn't get to like take the wheel, right? So um, you know, what would happen if you just started going down the road? Like failure is actually kind of part of the package, you know, right? Like it fail, you know, I don't mean like you you you fail and you and you give up and you and you fall over and that's it. But like if I had a list of all the little mini failures I've had on my route to building my business, like y'all would be like, oh, like absolutely an everyday part of what of what you do. So I I start I start thinking, and I do this with um ADHD clients, I start thinking about things like experiments, right? Like, what would it what would happen if I just if I just had you know tried this one little part of this or like I just like explored this a little bit and then whatever comes out of it, I get to tweak it for the next time I run the experiment. I mean, scientists are really always trying to prove themselves wrong. So why not go for an experiment and then you can tell your inner critic or your imposter, you know, judge or whatever, like, okay, I tried that, that didn't work, I'm gonna tweak it for the next time.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

Yep, yeah, absolutely. Um, very similar to what Megan said, I work a lot with clients to listen to the story and the fear, because usually with imposter syndrome, there's a signal there. Sometimes it's like, hey, I feel like I don't have enough skills. So that's a signal. Okay, if that's the case, where can you take a class or upgrade your skills so that you feel better about it? Um, there's also other things like, oh, I won't have enough time. Maybe that's another thing. Okay, how do we schedule in the time for you? So it's really like getting curious and investigating what that voice is trying to tell you about the imposter syndrome because there's usually something deeper there. Um, and then looking for evidence. Is that true? Is it not true? Has it happened before? How have you gotten past challenges in the past? Are you gonna be able to do it now? Um, but it is very real and it is something that I hear from a lot of uh clients as well. And so experimental approach is huge. What's the smallest action that you might be able to take in the direction that you're hoping to go towards? Um, I do it all the time with my business when I'm working on new directions and stuff like that. Um, and I also love what Megan said about failure, and it's something that is really top of mind. I have a 16-month-old right now. My son is walking, but when he started to take his first steps, right, he would walk across the room, shake, fall down, and then get right back up. And so that's been really beautiful to see just like resilience in a different way from someone so young. And I feel like as we age, we lose part of that. And so I've been learning a lot by just watching him and like even kind of applying some of the lessons to myself and my business as well. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:53

I mean, it's so wild, like all the artists in the room, you know that like failure is part of the creative process, or like you know, not getting it right the first time, that's part of the process, and then you like get to co create, right? So um, there's something else you said that was I have this exercise I do in my self-promotion workshop. Um, if I were to ask you all to start just dreaming up who besides you would benefit from you fulfilling your dreams and just spend some time like sort of brainstorming because this isn't just about you. You fulfilling your dreams benefits uh everyone around you, it benefits the people in your life, it benefits the strangers you encounter in the world when you're just in a better frame of mind. It benefits the world. I mean, some of you have some gifts that we need right now. Like don't be stingy with your gifts. We need them. And we need we need women, we need uh people of color, we need queer folks, we need trans. We need all of those people to be thriving because that is exactly what capitalism doesn't want.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Um, we did get a question in from Chennai. So, as a business owner, how do you juggle debt like school loans and starting your own business? Something I am deeply in right now because I just went back to grad school earlier this year. So taking out things like student loans, I have my business, you know, car, house, baby, all of those things. Um, for me, it was looking at the finances of things. I am of a certain age, and so I have 20, 30 years left of my career. And so, how do I want to spend that time? Do I want to spend it in corporate where I'm getting the life drained out of me? Or do I what do I want it to look like? And then I made the decision, you know, if I'm taking some school loans to pay this off, um, that's okay. I have enough time where I will be able to pay those off. I'm not doing a PhD program or anything like that. But master's program, it does have some costs involved, but being able to chart out like what would payments look like if I did this as well. Um, there are things like grants too. So if you are in school right now or you have school loans or even a business loan, there's tons of business grants. Um, especially if you're a business owner, women, um minority-owned business or anything like that, you can register um for the small business administration, you can get uh women-owned business certification, and they will actually give you things like referrals and grants for your business that you can apply for as well. So it does take some of the heat off of it. Um, but I recommend if it's something that you're thinking about, it could be reaching out to a business coach, reaching reaching out to a coach, somebody who's been there before. Um, a lot of us who end up becoming business owners love to help other people uh grow their businesses as well. So I would say um get it's always getting curious about it. If it's is the finances that are the concern, let's dig into it. What does it look like? What might it look like? And coming up with a plan there as well. So Megan, did you have anything to add on this topic?

SPEAKER_02 39:18

Man, I mean, yeah, this is the thing, right? Um I I would say so um Roberta mentioned the small business administration. That's a national um organization, I don't know. I don't know how to say it. But anyway, um you should there should be a local branch of that in your town or county. So um look for that. When I first started, I did um I did a course. I don't know how helpful it was, but it, but I did learn some things, right? But there there are resources out there. Um, so look into that. By the way, the library is really great, y'all. Like, I don't know about the library where you are, but I just had to do something where I got I had to get something notarized. And I found out that the library does free notary services like one day a week. So just anyway, there's a lot of great stuff there. Um juggle, that's a really interesting uh word. Uh I feel like I'm constantly juggling. But listen, when I first started out, this this chapter of owning a business, it was um, you know, a surprise layoff. And there were there were moments when I was on food stamps. There was moments when I put my loans into um forbearance. Um, there's been a lot of like fun things that I've done because I've decided like I don't want to ever work for a company again. I I can't. Like I'm I'm too cynical about companies. I can't do it. I'm a terrible employee. I'm always gonna, I'm always going to raise a red flag when I am worried about how things are gonna impact people. That's just, I'm sorry, that's my toxic trait. Um so uh uh all that to say, like I made that decision and I had to get weird and resourceful, and I did. I got weird and resourceful and bit by bit, and um, I did everything on a shoestring budget. Like my friend and I made my therapy website myself. I'm now learning all the things I didn't know about SEO then, um, and I'm doing that all myself. I mean, my marketing budget is zero and I still get clients, so I'm doing something right.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. Um, we do have to start to transition for today's session. It's been absolutely lovely to connect with all of you. Um, if you want to stay connected with us, this is the first of many events this summer that I have designed. So the next one is on July 20th with Dr. Kimberly Murray. Um, I did drop a link in the chat. And then if you're looking for support this summer, I have a summer sale going on for Spark sessions. There's 10% off. Um, and I'll be sending a follow-up with all the information as well. Um, Megan, how can folks stay connected to you?

SPEAKER_02 42:01

Yeah, I'm just dropping my LinkedIn in the chat. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

Thank you so much, Megan, for joining today. Thank you, everyone on the call. It was so lovely to have uh have time with you. Um, hope everyone has a great rest of the summer and we will see you soon.

SPEAKER_02 42:16

Nice to meet you all. Thank you, Roberta. Thanks.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Yeah, thanks everyone.

SPEAKER_00 42:25

Thanks for being here. If something in this episode landed with you, feel free to pass it along to someone who might need it too. You can leave a review, subscribe, or just keep tuning in. We're figuring it out together. And remember your story, your voice, your becoming. It all matters.