“Grief Changed Us” — Mahaley & Ravi Patel on Infant Loss, Marriage, and Pregnancy After Loss

Mahaley and Ravi Patel join me to share the story of their daughter, Saachi.

After complications during birth led to meconium aspiration, Saachi spent five days in the NICU before her parents said had to say goodbye. In this episode, Mahaley and Ravi gently reflect on those early days — the hope, the uncertainty, the sacred time they were given — and the heartbreak of leaving the hospital without their baby.

Mahaley, a licensed marriage and family therapist specializing in perinatal mental health, grief, trauma, and infant and child loss, speaks openly about what it was like to be supporting families through birth trauma and NICU experiences while navigating the loss of her own daughter. Losing Saachi profoundly deepened and redirected her work — shaping how she now holds space for bereaved parents and ultimately leading her to write her book, Your NICU Story, a resource born from both clinical expertise and lived experience.

Ravi shares honestly about fatherhood in grief, the strain and strengthening of their marriage, and what survival mode truly looked like in those first months.

Over time, their story expanded to include pregnancy after loss, surrogacy, and the arrival of their rainbow babies — all while continuing to honour Saachi in their everyday lives.

We talk about:

• Saachi’s birth and her time in the NICU
• Meconium aspiration and unexpected birth complications
• The sacred and painful experience of saying goodbye
• Grieving differently within a marriage
• Supporting one another when both partners are hurting
• How losing a child reshapes identity and professional calling
• The creation of Your NICU Story and supporting other NICU families
• Pregnancy after loss and cautious hope
• Parenting rainbow babies while carrying enduring love

This episode is a reminder that a baby’s life — no matter how brief — can alter the course of a family forever. Saachi’s life continues to ripple outward, shaping the way her parents love, parent, work, and serve other grieving families.

Get to Know Mahaley:

Mahaley Patel, LMFT, PMH-C is a licensed therapist specializing in perinatal mental health, grief, trauma, and infant/child loss. She holds a Bachelor of Arts from UCLA and a Master’s degree from Pepperdine University. With a compassionate and client-centered approach, Mahaley is dedicated to supporting individuals navigating their journey to and through parenthood. She also serves on the bereaved parent advisory board at Monroe Carell Jr. Children’s Hospital at Vanderbilt and runs a child loss support group for grieving parents. Beyond her professional work, she is a wife, a mother of four, and a bereaved parent, bringing both personal and clinical experience to her practice.

Website: www.mahaleypatel.com
Instagram: @mahaleyhpatel
Read her book "Your NICU Story": https://a.co/d/07dscQMi

Connect with Kristin:

📍 Website: thedoulalife.ca
🌈 The Haven — Pregnancy After Loss Support Program: thedoulalife.ca/haven (use code RAINBOW to save $100)
🕊 RECLAIM — The PAL Birth Course: thedoulalife.ca/reclaim (use code RECLAIM to save $100)
🌸 Mother Like No Other — Loss Mom Community: thedoulalife.ca/mother
📸 Instagram: @the.doula.life

If you enjoyed this episode, please don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review — it helps get these stories and resources into the hands of the women who need them most. And please share it with someone who could use this kind of support. Your support means so much.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I don't have really crystal clear memories of my first moments with her. I remember, but not as clearly as I as I could have probably. I remember they immediately placed her on my chest and I remember her little foot reaching up to kick my face. I remember seeing that movement and thinking, We'll just be unhappy, like to see her move a little bit and see her facial expressions change and we we heard her try to take some breaths, which were also heartbreaking. And she came out like three pounds and 15 ounces, which which I think was like God in some way because four pounds is the cutoff for ECMO. So it was just like clear this is what's happening next. You know, part of me was feeling a little frantic, like can someone help her in the OR? But I knew, you know, all the months of research and appointments I knew that it was just time to be with her.

SPEAKER_03 0:49

Welcome to the Rainbow Connection. This podcast was designed for mothers who are finding their way through life after loss. Whether you're grieving, trying to conceive again, newly pregnant, or holding hope in your heart for what's to come, this space is for you. Each week you'll hear real and tender stories. Stories of love, heartbreak, healing, and the babies who continue to shape us. I'm your host, Kristen Mundy, a mother, doula, and a woman who's walked this path too. May these conversations remind you that you are not alone, that your baby is never forgotten, and that hope and grief can live here together. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to introduce you to The Haven, my signature support program for mothers who are pregnant again after experiencing miscarriage, TFMR, stillbirth, or infant loss. This is not just a course. The Haven is a trauma-informed community program that includes weekly live workshops, expert guest speakers, and ongoing support from me, an experienced dual, and fellow lost mom whenever you need it. You'll also receive one-on-one check-ins, guided journaling prompts, full access to my birth course reclaim, and a warm, intimate community of other POL mothers, a place where you can be real, be held, and be reminded that you are not alone in this. Enrollment inside the Haven is now open and support is available to walk with you through your entire pregnancy. From the moment you see those two pink lines all the way until your baby is tucked safely into your arms. If you've been longing for a place to be safe, be seen, and be supported throughout your pregnancy, then the Haven was made for you. You can learn more at thedalife.ca slash haven. Inside the Haven, your baby is remembered, your voice is honored, and you are fully supported every step of the way. Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of the Rainbow Connection. Today's conversation is a really special one and a first for the Rainbow Connection podcast. I get to sit down with a couple and hear both their perspectives in real time. I'm sitting down today with Mihayley and Ruby Patel to talk about their precious daughter Saatchi. Saatchi was born after experiencing complications during birth and spent five days in the Nikyu before her parents had to sadly say goodbye. And in this episode, we move gently through those days, the hope that lived alongside their fear, the sacredness of the time that they were given with Saatchi, and the heartbreak of having to walk out of the hospital without your baby. Mahaley is a licensed marriage and family therapist who specializes in perinatal mental health and infant loss. But what struck me so deeply in this conversation was how losing Saatchi didn't just shape her personally, it reshaped her calling. Her daughter's life continues to guide the way she shows up for families and ultimately is what led her to write her book, A Nikki Story, which was born from both her lived experience and the desire to help other parents feel less alone in their Nikki journeys. It's definitely something that I can relate to on a personal level with my own story and with this very podcast. We talk about what grief looks like in a marriage. We talk about survival mode. We talk about pregnancy after loss. We touch on surrogacy a little bit and what it means to raise rainbow babies while still carrying so much love for the child who came before. Now, this conversation is a very real conversation. We actually laugh a lot, which is kind of odd with you know the things that we are talking about, but it just goes to show how lost parents can relate to each other on a different level and how honest and how real Mahaley and Ruby really are. So I'm really excited to introduce you to them. I'm really excited to share this episode. And yeah, let's dig in, why don't we? Enough for me. Let's hear from MiHaley and Ruby Patel. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Rainbow Connection. Today we have two special guests, and this is the first time we're gonna have a couple joining us. So I'd love to introduce you to Mihali and Ravi Patel. Hi guys, thanks so much for being here.

SPEAKER_05 5:27

Very exciting to be here.

SPEAKER_03 5:34

So many questions. And also just chomping at the bit to finally have a partner come on here and share a little bit about their world and just you know dive into that a little bit. But you know, before we do get into that, why don't you guys just introduce us to yourselves? Tell our listeners a little bit about yourselves.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Um we've been together 12 years. Yep. Feels like much longer. Actually, coming up on number 12 next month. We have four kids. Our oldest is nine. Our omily. Our second daughter, Sachi, just had her what would have been her third birthday. We have two rainbow babies. We have a son who is about 20 months now? Yeah. He's in that weird in-between where he's not really one and a half. He's not two. Yeah, he's not, I guess, almost two. And then that's Kaya.

SPEAKER_05 6:29

And then we have a trip to the Sarker than him is Archie.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:35

Oh, wow. Well, I want to hear if we have time, I really want to hear about that too.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Cause there's a lot to that's its own, that's like its own podcast episode.

SPEAKER_05 6:44

We really, I mean, we were just in triage, just just trying to figure out anything that would work.

SPEAKER_03 6:50

I totally get it. I totally get it.

unknown 6:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:52

Yeah. We had sex one time, and I also think Mahaley kind of tricked me. That were excused, they usually wouldn't have been excused. And so one could argue that it was a bit of a what they call a trap.

SPEAKER_03 7:12

Yeah. No taking no taking it back now, right? Yeah. Kind of happily. Well, you guys definitely have, you know, your hands full right now. I mean, two little ones. I mean, your one-year-old isn't necessarily a baby anymore. And it's not necessarily like a functioning toddler yet. It's like that in between, like you said. So, but definitely really, really busy time. What do you guys both do for work? Ruby, I know that you are like kind of dabbling in a few different things, and same as you, Mahali. Like, tell me a little bit about that world.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

I am a licensed marriage and family therapist. He has always been in perinatal mental health, like from the beginning of when I started seeing clients. So it's kind of interesting to be in that world and then to lose your child. I've known people that have gone to that work after. I don't know anyone who's like was already in that world. So primarily before I kind of I saw a lot of like clients with birth trauma, postpartum depression, infertility. And now, you know, my focus is a little bit more on working with parents and Nikki families, but also just like things are like the needs are very high at home. And so I am a mom a lot of days. I bet I am I mean it was a gift and a curse.

SPEAKER_05 8:34

I mean, I wanna look, one of my one of my favorite things about her is that she's always found a way to imbue, you know, our experience or her experience into work. Um like when we went through that, you know, she she had such familiarity with the world from a from a professional standpoint. But then at the same time, she was still she decided to keep working and she was seeing clients who were going through you know different versions of what she was going through herself. And that part was really really hard. I had to kind of you know coax her into saying, Hey, I think maybe it's a good time to take a take a break from it's definitely some of these clients while while you're dealing with some crazy shit on your own. Can I swear?

SPEAKER_03 9:19

It's too yeah, you swear. We we are swearers over here.

SPEAKER_05 9:22

So uh but yeah, you know, and now she's she's obviously moved her practice deeper into what we've been through, which you know, I think is gonna be not just good for her, but she's gonna help a lot of people.

SPEAKER_03 9:36

I'm sure I think it's you know, I would love to dive into this a little bit more later too. I think it's very different helping someone and then doing it for yourself, right? And I would love, you know, just from a clinical perspective, a professional. I know that was my experience as well. Like I lived in the birth world, I lived supporting parents, and then all of a sudden I lost my baby. And I was like, oh, like this is very different when you're personally going through it. And I responded very similarly, like dove in more. And I was like, okay, maybe we need to kind of deal with like our side of the street a little bit. But I get it. It's because once you learn, once you experience it yourself, it's kind of hard to step away when you know that need is so prevalent and out there and you could do something to to help, right?

SPEAKER_05 10:25

Like now, I know the big picture of your life. I'm curious, just for the sake of relating to you.

SPEAKER_03 10:30

Yeah. So I've been a dual for family situation now.

SPEAKER_05 10:35

Sure. It's not like some podcast listeners who have to listen to this again.

SPEAKER_03 10:39

That is okay. They they know, or I can edit it. Oh, we'll we'll see what happens. But we do, yeah. We so I've had four losses in total in 2021, I believe. Yep, 2021. My daughter was stillborn. So she was my third loss. And it was after a healthy pregnancy, after a week of being, you know, feeling like something was wrong, telling my care providers I thought something was wrong, and just them gaslighting me the whole week. And then I found out that she had passed and she was a completely healthy baby. Um, so obviously that rocked our world. We then went, you know, we took time to grieve. We went and got, you know, obviously, when you lose your baby, there is that undeniable ache in your heart to grow your family. You're, you know, you're prepared. You were prepared to bring home a baby. And then all of a sudden, your baby isn't with us anymore. And my husband and I really felt that. And we, you know, probably like you guys just said, about sitting in the hospital, like planning and wanting this to happen. We got pregnant again. And unfortunately, our next baby, that was my son William. We found out pretty early on that he had a congenital heart defect, which was completely unrelated to what my daughter had. And we lost him at 17 weeks. Fast forward a little bit, we got pregnant again, went through a really high-risk pregnancy now with, you know, four pregnancy losses under my belt. It was, you know, the second most challenging time of my life. Um, but we do have a beautiful two and a half-year-old daughter who is the love of my life and so grateful. But even now, we're still like, well, what do we do next? Like the plan wasn't to have one kid, right? We were like, look what we've just gone through. So that's kind of where we're at right now. And then just professionally, when I lost my daughter four years ago, four almost five years ago now, my work completely pivoted towards supporting lost parents. So now I support people who have just recently lost their baby, maybe they're navigating, trying to conceive, or next steps again, like what the heck do we do? Or parents that are pregnant again after loss, or now, just recently, parents who are parenting after loss. So kind of the whole gamut of the motherhood journey, but loss focused. Yeah. So a lot of my clients have unfortunately have had similar experiences to you guys where, you know, they lived in the Nikki. Um so I do know you sharing your story today, there is going to be a really well-received audience. So now my podcast focuses on, you know, hearing those stories of loss, but also what has come from it, if a rainbow's come from it or where life is at now.

SPEAKER_05 13:44

Um yeah, that's kind of well, thank you for learning that. I mean, I I you know, everyone has different like they they have different preferred responses when they should one of the things that I've learned. And some responses are better than others. But my my actual response and hearing what you just said is just like fuck first of all. Like that's the first thing is like fuck. I'm so sorry, like fuck. Like there's not really any words for all that you've uh been through. And then at the same time, you know, so much beauty on the other end of what you've made from it, what you've gotten out of it.

SPEAKER_03 14:26

Well, you guys definitely uh we have different stories, but like similar boat. I guess just like a deeper level of understanding of like the journey, right? So definitely like when you say a lot of the things that you say, I'm like, yep, yep, yep, resonate, definitely. But I would love I've shared my story. I would love to hear, you know, your guys' story. Like, let's hear what you know brought you on the podcast today.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

How did we get here? We our second daughter, Sachi, was born in February of 2023. Um I mean, it, you know, it was a it was a I would not say a super hard journey in terms of like infertility or anything like that to get to her, more just in deciding what we wanted our family to look like. But that's a that's another podcast for another day. Um so pregnancy was super like uneventful. It was quite a hard journey though, getting to the for sure. The the pregnancy with her was like pretty uneventful. The only thing really that was there I have I've had in all three of my pregnancies hyperemesis. And so that obviously like sucks so much. Um but I think just knowing that that's likelier than not what I was facing the second time around, you know, and our oldest daughter was five, five to six during the pregnancy. So like a little more independent. So, you know, it wasn't it was pretty uneventful overall. And I yeah, I went to all my doctor's appointments. I was being seen by an MFM because of the hypermesis, so I was having extra scans, everything was always normal, great. And then, like right around my due date, I went into labor naturally and went to the hospital just like I did the first time around. And, you know, kind of fast forward to the part where things started to go awry. Her heart rate dipped, and they were able to get it back up the first time. And that had actually happened with Omelie. And so I think I wasn't super alarmed at that point because they probably like flipped you or wanted to. Yeah, they flipped me, they do the moves and they were able to get it back up and great. And then um, I had just gotten an epidural. And so having done that with my daughter, I'm like, oh great, it's nap time, like nap time before go time, right? So Robbie lays down on the couch. I like lay down to take a nap, and probably within like two minutes of that, um, her heart rate dipped again. And, you know, it was that thing where like one person comes in, then it's two, three, four people, then it's eight people, then it's 11 people and so on and default. Um and so they told me, you know, at some point and told him that they were gonna take me for an emergency c section. I didn't realize at that moment that something was wrong with her, because it just kind of all happened so fast. And I had kind of like weirdly had this fear. I don't really know where it came from. I think I was really scared of the shift of going from one to two kids. And I had like weirdly had this feeling like like I was gonna die. I don't know why I had that feeling because obviously I didn't die and my life was never in danger and I'm here today. But I remember like feeling like that for the first part of the whole thing as they're like wheeling me away. And this is such a bizarre part of the story, but it's something that always sticks out. I read this thing forever ago that like, if you're ever in a situation that's dangerous, to like tell that, like, if it's someone that's like trying to like rob you or something, like tell them about yourself, like to humanize you. And I remember screaming that like popped in my mind. And I remember screaming out to the nurses, like, I have a six-year-old, like, please save me because like I need to get home and like also be a parent to her, you know. So that's obviously not what was happening. You know, Sachi, it turned out had meconium aspiration and was without oxygen for like a pretty substantial amount of time by the time they took her out from the emergency c section until the time that they resuscitated her. And she was the hospital that we were at had a level three NICU. So she was taken immediately, put on a cooling blanket for those that, you know, maybe listening and familiar with that process. And then she was transferred over to Thankfully, like they were, they wheeled her, you know, over next door. And she, you know, lived the majority. I mean, she lived all of her life there. And it was kind of a series of events to not only get her off the cooling blanket, but to also understand the extent of the damage that had been done to her and had been done to her brain and her organs from the lack of oxygen. And so, yeah, that would that was five days in the NICU. And at the end of the five days, she she died. She died in our arms. And you know, that was that's kind of her whole they said it was some of the worst damage that they had ever seen. Sorry, what I'm not. So, you know, it was like I think anything like that, of course, is a shock, right? But when you have a supernova pregnancy from start to finish, we had a series of tests on to you know, try to determine if it was something that like was missed and you know might affect like subsequent children down the road or subsequent pregnancies down the road. And for better, for worse, it really it was a complete fluke. Like the, you know, something like 20% of birth meconium aspiration or meconium is present, right? And of that 20%, it's like 1% or less. I probably am getting these statistics wrong because it's been a minute since I've since I've you know looked at it, but we we are basically in a you know less than kind of one percent there.

SPEAKER_03 20:28

Yeah, like I, you know, I've been at birth dealer for eight years. There's definitely been a lot of births where I I have seen Merconium. And I'm just so sorry that that happened to you guys. I mean, as her partner, how does that feel, you know, to hear? One thing I've I've realized is like there's like almost two different traumas happening at once. There's the trauma, obviously, of your baby's health and well-being and the fear of what is happening to them. But as the partner, it not happening to you, like I'm assuming that you were probably put under general anesthesia and that you weren't allowed in the cesarean room. Like, what was that like being a partner, just witnessing, you know, this event kind of happening in front of you and not knowing, you know, maybe what's going on.

SPEAKER_05 21:19

You know, I I I I I appreciate that you said that because it it is, I think we talk often about how it our experiences and our traumas were so different. And I think for me, you know, she was going through the trauma of a loss of an expected life and life together, right? And then the physical trauma in addition to that of just you know having the surgery and all that. And I was I would say in urge. You know, grieving the loss and I was, you know, crying and all sorts of stuff. But the majority of my time was you know being preoccupied by trying to just be proactive in running the the business of the moment, which is you know, it was significant. There was just a lot of things to be done, whether it was conversations with doctors or helping Mahaley, you know, and coordinating with uh family members, um you know, and you know, thinking about our daughter, and you know, there's just a lot of just logistics. I mean, it was like a full-time job just dealing with just talking to doctors, but also just being really proactive about getting ahead of decisions. I mean, there's just so many of them, and you realize when you go through something crazy in medicine, you first thing, you know, the one thing that becomes obvious is that you know, you think of medicine or as like this objective science where there's always a right and a wrong. But there's actually like so many different opinions and different ways to handle every situation. And so that took a great deal of my time. And then you also end up spending a lot of time just being like a call center, like a grieving call center operator for grief for all the people who are, you know, who love you and are trying to support you. But that ends up being kind of a job, you know, you're you're you're like communicating with everyone in your family, or always people who need to know what's what's going on. And then, you know, you're communicating to them and then they start crying, and then you're like then you're trying to make them feel better.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

Like you end up being a caretaker.

SPEAKER_05 23:51

Yeah, which then you're there. It's not they're not doing anything wrong, but you're like, now you're like, okay, well, I can't like say bye while they're crying. So now I gotta sit through this while they're finished crying. And you know, you think maybe I'll cry, maybe I'll cry again right now. Maybe I'll maybe sure, you know. So it's it was a lot of that. I mean, the way I always tell people is like, you know, if her grief was more about loss, mine was more about like I think I experienced less grief and more just trauma of this. It was like more the trauma of the the five days and maybe the few weeks after Satya was born. Because that was like, you know, felt a lot like being the captain of a very big sinking ship in a store, you know, like in well, probably leaves like very little room for you to really feel much at all, right?

SPEAKER_03 24:47

Because you are jumping into like this caretaking role of or managerial role. Like I remember even with us, my husband had to do, you know, all the funeral arrangements or like all the phone calls, all the really hard decisions. I know I wasn't in a place where I could even, you know, think clearly. And I'm not sure if that's your experience too, Mahalia, but it's so interesting to me that, you know, those stereotypical roles that we have, like it kind of that's kind of ends up what happens, right?

SPEAKER_05 25:22

There's like Yeah, totally. And I've wondered, oh, was that just being a man? Because I also know that would be my coping mechanism the mechanism is to find a way to be busy and to be in charge.

SPEAKER_03 25:31

Yeah. Did you guys have like much exposure to the medical world, you know, before this, or was this just like your first kind of introduction to navigating? Because from what I understand from NICU, like I meant have a baby in the NICU. It kind of is like, like you said, those first five days, those five days where you are navigating all these opinions and decisions, it's so traumatizing. And it's like a huge compounded trauma. It's not just like an event, right? Because you're living in that trauma for days on end, wondering what is gonna happen and what's best for your family. Like, what was that experience, you know, like for you guys?

SPEAKER_05 26:15

No, and you're making these, you know, the biggest decisions you what feels like the biggest decisions of your life at life changing, right? Your lowest level of you know, mental acuity. You know, it's funny, I I you know, Mahaley was probably closer to what you're describing in yourself, like very low energy, certainly, you know, you know, I don't even know how to explain it.

SPEAKER_03 26:40

Like just just well, and she just had major surgery, right? There's also the physical reality of what she was wanted to.

SPEAKER_05 26:52

But at the same time, like impressively like aware. Like me, you know, I was doing I would say I was doing most of the kind of heavy lifting, uh he was listening and she was helping the whole way. And and whenever we were making like big decisions, like she wouldn't say much, but what she said indicated that she'd been thinking and analyzing and like so it was interesting. Like we were we were very much a team through the whole thing. It was more like, you know, I was kind of physically carrying her, I feel like, but at the same time, she was mentally remarkably like um when she did choose to talk talk, like it was good.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

I think when it came to Satchi, I mean, I outside of maybe the those first 12 hours, maybe 20 to 24, because I was so kind of I mean, I'd had a cocktail of medication. I didn't really see in anything until kind of later that night, but that first night, but after that, I feel like when it came to her, we you know, every the what feels like thousands of meetings you have, like, you know, we were there and present, and but I think everything outside of that when it came to other people and them flying in, people dropping off meals or what like that. I had no my focus really only was on your girls, not sheep and and then omni, right, to a certain degree. I mean, everything else kind of and and you know there's like so much more, right? I mean, it's like this isn't a comparison, but it's when women and mothers primarily talk about the mental load, right? That there's so much more than what you see just like in the on the surface, right? Yeah. And I think there's that, there's the mental load of having a child in the NICU, having a child that's dying in the NICU. And I really don't feel that I did any of that kind of I just it was just what was right in front of me, which were my kids.

SPEAKER_03 29:09

Yeah, and it's like who cares about the rest of the stuff? Like, yeah, it'll get figured out.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

He kind of has to deal with it, right?

SPEAKER_05 29:15

And he did like it wasn't just me. I mean, what we had you had asked about you asked about, you know, what kind of medical experience. I mean, we what we the one thing we came out of this realizing is that we have the I mean, we kind of already knew it, but the most incredible family and friends around us. And we had all the access. I think we are on, I would imagine, the good side of the spectrum of care and resources. Not just first of all, everyone in the hospital could not have been better to us. Like the nurses are just, I mean, all the people in the hospital, we came to like, you know, we try to participate in everything at the hospital now because we just have we've just come so become so close to them and we have such gratitude towards them and the way they cared for us. But then on top of that, you know, because I'm Indian, I know a doctor at the top of every like so I end up with the way that we're gonna come in there. I called every single badass Indian doctor I know who are all like my best friends, you know, like and they were they were all giving advice. And then, you know, we also just had friends who, you know, are close friends here. They are neighbors. They their best friend works in a cardiology pediatric cardiologist at Vandy. So she like added herself to our team, showed up to see us multiple times a day, even when she wasn't working. And then just our community of friends between LA, New York, and Nashville just, you know, I mean, showed up and just like, I mean, made every call and just like it was just, you know, we feel like we got the best of the best support. And honestly, that's why we're even, you know, doing a podcast like this because I think we feel such great responsibility that we we know that other people who go through this mostly go through it alone and don't get to do this the way that we got to do it. And we want to figure out a way to, you know, help others who go through this kind of horrible shit, but maybe don't get it to do it with the reasons.

SPEAKER_03 31:19

It's I find it so interesting how people kind of come out of the woodworks for you, right? In those moments of distress, and you're just like, oh wow, like yeah, I couldn't, I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah. And sometimes also there's like the grief, too, of like the people that you thought would come out of the woodworks and show up, and you're like, oh, like oh, I mean, like I think of I still I can't hide it in my brain.

SPEAKER_05 31:43

Like, there's some people who I would have expected to show up that didn't. And conversely, there's people who I would didn't expect to have. And I was just telling a friend this. I was in, I've I'm doing something, I'm working in New York a lot right now. And I was actually stayed at my buddy's place the other day, and we've gone a lot a lot closer over the last few years. And we're part of this crew of like 20 New York friends or whatever. And I don't know why it came up, but I basically told him, I go, you know, I made a very conscious choice that I wanted to be closer to you based on you know who you've been to me the last few years. And you just you just realize, you know, I think that's part of this season of life, but certainly when you go through really hard things, you know, you real it really codifies what what really matters in relationships.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

And like the people that really matter, right?

SPEAKER_03 32:39

Yeah, but it's like a deeper level, it's a deeper level of like understanding. And yeah, I mean, things like this, they they transform who you are, right? It's like a kind of becomes like this foundational part of who you are. And if you have people in your life that aren't able to meet the foundation of you, it could be really difficult, right?

SPEAKER_05 32:57

Well, you also realize that your community is going through this for the first time as well, and that most people don't know, are just as confused on how to navigate this as you are. And you know, like one thing where she and I, where we've kind of butted heads, is like I'll come down on her for being judgmental towards people who say the wrong things. And for me, I feel like, oh, someone saying the wrong thing and not knowing what to say is their version of not knowing how to do this. It doesn't necessarily mean that you can't be friends with them anymore. It just means that they're not going to be your friend when it comes to this.

SPEAKER_03 33:37

It can be hard though.

SPEAKER_05 33:38

I I I totally this is maybe another gender stereotype for someone like because every single woman, like Mahaley will go straight to like, like if she's talking to any of her female friends, she's like, but honestly, like fuck that person. They're like, Yeah, fuck that person.

SPEAKER_03 33:54

Yeah, I mean, I have definitely felt that. I mean, I think you just can't unhear some of the things that are said to you, and you're like, you're another woman. If and and you might even be a mother. It's like, how are you so out to lunch with like the reality of what I am experiencing? Whereas my husband, he's like, Kristen, people are doing the best that they can. I'm like, are they?

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Because like sometimes they aren't verbatim conversations.

SPEAKER_05 34:21

Yeah, verbatim, yeah. But I I agree. Like the tone deaf stuff is really hard done here.

SPEAKER_03 34:25

Well, I think some people just are so uncomfortable with being uncomfortable. And that's the frustrating thing. It's like, I'm sorry my life is so uncomfortable to you. Like that you can't even try to meet me in this discomfort. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

I yeah, I I I feel like three years out, like some of the edges that I have have softened a little bit, right? I don't I I don't hold people to the same standard total totally. Even like with her third birthday, right? I'm not doing the kind of math in my head that I like who said happy birthday and who didn't. Yeah. Totally. But I do feel very strongly that there are like multiple camps of people. There are people that really try and really want to be there and support you, and they just they don't say the right thing or they say something insensitive, but the heart is there, the intention is there. And that's where I've really softened is like in knowing the attempt, the attempt and and the intent and the heart. But I do feel, and I I have friends that are in this category, and I've just learned they're just gonna be a friend in a different way, where their need to say something is their own discomfort because they can't go there. They can't, they don't wanna, you know, imagine like what it might feel like to lose their own kid. And I also think in our situation, because it wasn't an obvious, like, oh, you know, someone to blame or like something where someone did something wrong, like I did something wrong or he did something wrong. That makes people really uncomfortable too, because I feel like they don't know it's almost more it's harder for them to digest because they're like, oh, okay, well, how do how do I prevent that from happening to me? Oh, I can't. Like there's anything you can do, right?

SPEAKER_03 36:25

But there's so you're just like, there's so much you could do. I do also think part of it is, and maybe this isn't your experience, but there is a little bit of ego in it too. Like the people that just want to come in and problem solve and fix it, or maybe they're uncomfortable. There's I think it really does put like a mirror or a flashlight onto the people that just don't inherently feel safe with this part of your life. And as a mother, like we've said before, this is transformative. Like as a mother, you would want to be able to share the biggest part of your life and the people that can't go there. It's like, well, how do I meet you when you know you can't show up for me? I do totally, I love that you use that language of just like the edges have softened. I think when you're still in like the acute trauma, the acute grief, it's so hard to have to like be the bigger person and to have a level of understanding and compassion for them because you're like, I'm the woman that you know is going through this. And it's just like I'm already at my threshold of what I can handle and how much grace that I can give. And now I'm having to give this also to you. I am, I totally understand it. You know, one thing I do want to talk about, just because we I just brought up, you know, the idea of language. I would love to hear like what your experience has been about language, especially for Nikyu parents. I know that Nikyu parents, you know, whether they got to bring their baby home or sadly they weren't able to, they're often, you know, labeled as like, oh, you're such a strong, you're so strong, you're so strong. I am wondering like what you think gets lost when you're just constantly being called strong or like any sort of other Nikki language that comes up during that experience for you guys. Do you know does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, I think that you know, this goes back to like different things feel different ways to different people. So this is really like, you know, my own experience. I am for better or for worse, and definitely sometimes it's for the worst. I'm just very practical and realistic. I like the nuts and bolts. I don't, I don't like a lot of fluff. And I while I totally understand that for a lot of Nikki families, there's hope and like their babies are gonna come home, right? And this will have been a chapter for them, a hard, very hard chapter, probably very traumatizing in a lot of ways. It's a it's a different chapter than like what we had. And I think that I didn't love a lot of people that would tell me that she's gonna be fine, right? And I'm like, what? Like, where where are you getting your information? You know, um so I didn't like tell me which doctor is saying that I would love to know. Yeah, do you have a doctor that knows all, but yeah, because great, you know, I get all the right, the miracles happen, and you know, you're so strong, or you know, she's in a better place, or like God has a plan for her. Okay, I love that one. Yeah, I hate that one. Solomon drives me that one drives me oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 39:56

Like heaven needed another angel. They're like, Pardon?

SPEAKER_05 40:00

Yeah, I needed that's that's the most fucked up one because it implies that this was like a good yes, like this was a great thing, like it's so I mean, I know people are just saying it because they don't know what else to say, but it's if you've thought about it, it's so stupid. Yeah, like imagine saying that it was tragedy for the world to be a better place.

SPEAKER_03 40:21

I just feel like would you ever say that to someone that like lost a parent or lost a grandparent? Like God needed them more, or God has a plan, and you're like they say the same thing, it's just a blanket, it's clear.

SPEAKER_05 40:33

It's just yeah. I think for I fucking insane. Yeah, it is really insane.

SPEAKER_01 40:37

For some people though, like that probably that idea probably is really comforting and I or they believe it, like they genuinely I just don't like the idea that we all assume that that feels the same way for everyone else. This for me, that is a really backwards, twisted, like demented idea, and it does not feel good to me. And I don't really understand the implication of it, right? Um, or like karma or past lives, or I'm like, what I only live in the present. I don't, I just yeah, I I think for again, my my own experience is like I feel like I was kind of always rooted in the here and now, and now I'm really rooted in here and now. I don't if past lives are a thing, that's great. I just, it's not my doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't like fill the gaps to my story. And the reality is, is like I'm always gonna have those gaps. Yeah, I know belief system is is gonna fill those. It just that that is a story, and I have to like learn how to live with that, you know.

SPEAKER_03 41:44

I'd love to, you know, hear a little bit, you know. I know obviously your story brought you to, I know you talked about like sharing is like gonna help people and Haley has walked into like a role of helping people. And obviously, a huge part of you helping people is releasing your book. I know that is a huge tool for any of those that need it. I would love to hear, you know, what brought you to actually making the decision to write the book and just hearing a little bit. I have some other questions, but hearing a little bit about the book in general.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

The idea came for the book when I was kind of deciding if I wanted to go back to work and if I was going to what I wanted it to look like. I knew that I probably couldn't see the amount of clients I had been seeing before and probably in some of the specific areas of the perinatal mental health world. Um, but there, so my co-author, Emily Sauter, who's also a perinatal mental health therapist. She is, she's written a couple other books. And because I used to do a lot of birth trauma work, I do a type of trauma therapy called EMDR. So I do a lot of birth trauma. I love EMDR. It's amazing. And I used one of her books for many years, and it it's called Birth Story Brave, and it really kind of takes a person through their birth story and uses narrative work and the like power of storytelling to kind of move through their birth. And to be able to just, I think, see more parts of it, more parts of the story. And it was a really, really powerful tool that I would use with clients in addition to using MDR and things like that. And it was sort of like the first time that I think I really saw firsthand like the power of narrative therapy and storytelling. So I think in many ways, actually, the origin story like for your NICU story was that combined with when Ruby and I would talk about our different experiences in losing Satchi. So much of his came back to the NICU and those five days for him, and I think kind of the weeks following. And it's not that I don't have trauma from. That, of course, I do. It just isn't it's not front and center for me in the way that the grief is, and kind of navigating every day without Sachi. And I think this was our first time having a child in the NICU. And I also realized that for every family, regardless of their outcome, like they're walking away with so much, so much anxiety, so much trauma. I mean, it is no matter really why you're there and how long your your chapter was there, like it stays with you. I just wanted to make something that was like tangible for other NICU families, right? Whether they use it on their own or whether they used it with a therapist, because obviously I use Bird Story Brave with many clients. And that isn't I I had never written anything before. And so I reached out to Emily and just kind of told her my idea and who I was, and we decided to collaborate on it. And what I really also wanted to do is make a space for partners in the book. Because I think many tools and resources that we have are for like the the mother, the birthing parent, right? Whoever kind of is the primary role. And I think that partners get like so lost in the ex in the whole experience. I feel like that definitely happened with us.

SPEAKER_03 45:30

Well, it sounds like you know, because they jump into one of the big things is they jump into the caregiver role, or like maybe they don't get Matt leave and they have to like go back to work or they're taking care of you. Like it really is an entirely different experience.

SPEAKER_01 45:45

Yeah. So that's how that's how the book, that's how the book came to be. It was sort of that firsthand experience of of using Quartz Joy Brave and seeing the power of that, but then also like his experience. And yeah, I really love go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 45:58

Sorry, I just this is gonna sound so dumb. And you're not gonna like this.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

Uh oh.

SPEAKER_05 46:04

Because I should already know this.

SPEAKER_01 46:05

Every time he says something, this happens a lot, and I'm always like, what's about the command? Brace. And that wait.

SPEAKER_05 46:13

She's I know really unimpressed with me. Um the so the idea of what is it? It's called narrative, what's it called?

SPEAKER_01 46:21

Narrative work, narrative, narrative therapy, narrative intervention interventions, narrative work.

SPEAKER_05 46:26

Any so I I just I think I just figured something out about it that I I hadn't before, which I should have because we've talked about it and spent so much time with it. And not it.

SPEAKER_03 46:37

But it's gonna be don't even worry about it because every woman listening to this is like nodding their head.

SPEAKER_05 46:41

They're like, yeah, like this is yes, this is what I'm so happy as the first man and partner to be on this podcast to let all of you women, which surely you all are, feel so seen by complete ignorance. You're welcome. Um so the so the purpose of the narrative work is essentially to help you not just write your story, but to rewrite it so that it reframes the story that you're telling to yourself.

SPEAKER_03 47:17

Yeah, gain clarity, right?

SPEAKER_05 47:19

Into a story that's more powerful, though. So, like and that's more comprehensive. So when you tell yourself a story of something you go through that's bad, we've all been through traumatic events, whether small or big, right? You tell yourself the story of the bad thing that happened, you tell yourself of the victim of the people you're blaming, uh, you know, the organization of the people you're blaming.

SPEAKER_03 47:39

You could definitely get stuck.

SPEAKER_05 47:40

What's that?

SPEAKER_03 47:41

You could definitely get stuck in a story.

SPEAKER_05 47:44

You get stuck in your own narrative. And so what this does is helps reframe the same narrative by essentially, you know, focusing on other plot points that you know about, but you don't necessarily look at, mostly being the positive, the wins, all that kind of stuff. But in addition to going into more detail of the stuff that you're paying to buy, but being able to see being able to see that whole thing in like essentially a fuller light because you're answering these prompts that forces you to think about. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_03 48:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:15

I've never thought about that.

SPEAKER_03 48:16

One of the things, one of the ways that EMDR was explained to me, because if it's similar in that sense, is like sometimes you have a memory, and especially if it's traumatic, it just plays on a video loop in your brain. And you need to like interrupt the loop. You need to like throw a spoke and like a stick in the wheel, right? So you need to make it go a different route in your brain. That's what it kind of sounds like. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:41

That's what it sounds like. And I never put that together. And it's so I'm so glad that I could facilitate this.

SPEAKER_03 48:48

You know, one thing I really I appreciate about your book, especially, is that it's not like a workbook or like a to-do list. It's something that is inviting people to sit with rather than like, you need to do this and this and this, because you're already might be so overwhelmed with just life in itself. Whereas like an invitation and just having like gentle prompts just seems like a way more inviting way of like going there. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 49:22

Yeah. And we wanted to make it to where this isn't something you do from start to finish sitting or even a couple of a few prompts and put it down for a few months. You can pick it back up. There isn't really one right way. And you don't even have to answer all of the prompts in order to get something out of it. And we also want to, we tried to make it hopefully so there's something in there for all Nikki families, regardless of what you're there, what their duration was, or what their outcome was. So we get off the book is in five sections, and the last two sections are divided between those who went home with their baby and those who went home without because obviously being in the in the seat that we're in, you know. I if if I was reading it, right, if I was using a workbook, I would want a separate section to keep my ending into account. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:19

Well, that was gonna be my next question. Like, how do you kind of hold both of those realities, right? Both very traumatic, but very different as well, right?

SPEAKER_01 50:28

Yeah, yeah. And that's part of why we put them in different sections. And we were kind of intentional about kind of the order that we went in. Well, what's also different in this book that you know wasn't in Emily's other books is we have like personal reflections. So I have kind of reflection from me, reflection from him, and then one other contributor who wrote a really beautiful story about being in the NICU and her baby is is for thriving, right? So we wanted, I wanted everyone hopefully to be able to feel like whether it was from me or from him or from her, they they felt seen.

SPEAKER_03 51:06

I love that. Yeah, it's amazing. Now, what would you or how would you respond to parents? You know, maybe they read your book, they haven't read your book yet, but how do you respond to parents, whether, you know, they did get to bring their baby home or not, who just feel guilty with all the feelings that there might come up? Like maybe it's relief, maybe it's gratitude, maybe it's, you know, even joy over something that is inherently like painful. How would you respond to like people that are just like navigating all the complexities that are coming up while you know going through maybe the prompts or the book or even just reflecting on their experience?

SPEAKER_01 51:54

Well, my hope is that if they're feeling it in the book, that we'd made space for that to be okay and that to be part of the work and part of the story. I think I see this a lot as a therapist, like when we we have an emotion or a feeling, maybe we feel angry at someone for something that they said. I really love that person. So then we feel guilty that we're angry. I think like sometimes subconsciously there's the idea that the guilt or the shame of feeling a certain way or the embarrassment of feeling a certain way, or the privilege of feeling a certain way, like that, you know, I should have the perspective or whatever, is gonna like all of a sudden rid of uh rid us of the feeling. And I think perspective is obviously a beautiful thing to have, right? Taking someone's into account and intention, like those are all great things that we should do, but it isn't gonna kind of get rid of like that primary feeling that you had initially. And I think that those are all things that have to be worked through. And I think that a lot of times that that's why, like when you talk about the story kind of getting stuck, I think that's a lot of times part of it. Like have also told ourselves a secondary story about I should not feel this way because I got to bring my baby home. Or, you know, I should not feel this way because like, you know, I lost one child, but but I know someone who lost two, you know, or I had a rainbow baby and someone else who lost a child. Like that one comes up for me a lot, right? Like that comparative suffering kind of thing. Like that there are other individuals who've lost children who don't have that, right? Maybe because children lost were older or because they haven't they haven't had that experience. So therefore, like I should I should check myself because I've you know, because I have two rainbow babies, right? So I think it's very normal. Very normal. I think we all have that experience. And I think the more you sort of let it in, the quicker it actually kind of.

SPEAKER_03 53:55

We're meant to feel it, right? Yeah, we're meant to feel it. Like if you're gonna avoid it, it's gonna rear its ugly head. And I feel like there's no like rule book of how you should feel, right? Like every feeling that you're coming up has a reason and a purpose. And like you said, it's like meant to be felt, right? You feel that way because you you feel that way, right? I hope you're enjoying this episode. While we take a quick break, I want to speak to the moms listening who are in a very specific, very layered season. If you are parenting a living child after pregnancy or infant loss, whether you recently welcomed your rainbow baby, or you are raising a child while grieving another baby, and realizing that this chapter feels a little more complex than you expected? Well, I created something with you in mind. Because parenting after loss is not one story. It can look like holding your earthside child while missing the one who isn't here. It can look like loving your baby deeply while navigating fresh grief. It can look like gratitude and heartbreak living side by side. And that can feel incredibly isolating. And that's exactly why I created The Nest. The Nest is a supportive, ongoing community space for mothers raising a living child after pregnancy or infant loss. It's a space where you don't have to explain the coexistence of joy and grief, where identity shifts, relationship strains, nervous system overwhelm, and the very real postpartum experience are spoken about honestly, not minimized. Inside, you'll find trauma-informed postpartum doula support, two virtual community calls each month, and most importantly, a village of women who understand this season without you having to translate it. If you've been looking for your village in your Earth Mama era, whether that season feels joyful, heavy, or somewhere in between, you can learn more at thed.ca slash nest. And if you do decide to join us, please use promo code NES1 to get your first month free. Okay, now let's get back to the episode. You know, I would love to, we're gonna get Ravi and into Ravi, sorry, Ravi, into this question, but I would be really curious to hear, you know, how did your experience in the new queue or did it, did it change the way that you guys kind of communicate? Obviously, like at that time, you're making some really, really big decisions. Afterwards, you're making some really big decisions. Talking about future like family planning, you're making really big decisions. And I know grief it's hard. It's hard to grieve as a couple. So, so freaking hard. How has like grief affected your communication? And like I would just love to hear just any perspective that you had. What was your experience with that?

SPEAKER_05 57:02

We pretty much only speak in Spanish right now, too.

SPEAKER_06 57:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 57:11

You know, uh we had done a lot of work ourselves together and individually, getting us to the point where we could have Sachi. It was a ride. I mean, the experience of Amelie, you know, six years prior to Saatchi, from that moment to Sachi was a ride. I mean, it's very, you know, pretty terrible pregnancy. She's vomiting every day. That carried into a very harsh postpartum experience that was only exacerbated by a suboptimal marriage and suboptimal marriage conditions, in that I was traveling. I mean, you I'm you asked what I do. I'm an I'm an actor primarily, but I also write, direct, but other things. At the time, I was running a company, I was acting all over the world, and we were, she was with me with our baby, kind of lonely while I'm working 20 hours a day or whatever, you know, like um, and so you know the at the output of that moment in time was I don't know if we're gonna last. And also, she was like, I don't think I want to have any more kids. And I know that's your dream is to have more kids. So we had to go through a lot of work individually. I think it coincided with both of our individual low points, the shame of not being able to thrive in a marriage with part a partner that I think we both deemed uh a really good person, someone was saying a marriage should work. And so I think we both carried shame individually about that. And then just the just you know, it just you know, when marriage sucks, it really fucking sucks. And then you're raising a little baby in the middle of the room. Well, bleeds into everything, right? Affects everything. Everything everything just feels gets really dark really quickly. And you know, so we had we had there were moments of joy, but there was a great, you know, cod of darkness over us for a long time. And so we had to do, you know, we when she did finally approach me, I don't know, like two, three years later, is like, hey, I am ready to talk about the idea of having a kid together. Um, a lot of couples therapy. And I say that to mean the the the the great irony of having lost Saatchi is that the thing that got us to even having Saatchi is the thing that got us through losing her. We we I didn't think I was gonna get to have any more children. And I don't think she did either. I know she didn't. And we, you know, we took a leap of faith together because we figured out a way to be together. And we I feel like we got there just in time for Sachi to show up. And then I I think that's what got us through that moment afterwards is just, you know, we had we'd we'd fixed a lot of problems. I mean, uh I I think by the time we had Sachi, I actually um respected her in a way that I don't think I did before. I I, you know, my great lesson in marriage has been, and I think this is a predominantly, you know, another one that is pretty common from gender between genders is, you know, I, you know, in every marriage, you know, marriage is the pro, you know, when you date someone, you know, there's that great Chris Rock, but you're dating that person's representative. And, you know, like I tell her all the time I should sue her because she's not the fucking person that I was dating. I was close.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:55

Like, and are any of us though, I honestly are any of us on my hands.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:00

So marriage, marriage is this is essentially like a decision to, you know, handcuff to a person while you're going through this reality show where you find out other shit about that other person that you didn't know till it was too late. And then you, you know, you like you can't you can't go.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:17

You have to like pivot together, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:19

Yeah, you have to like figure out a way, like, oh well, I have debt. Oh, I have a crippling anxiety. Oh, great. You know, like you're dealing with all this bullshit that you're like, oh, this is gonna really screw us for the rest of our lives together. And then you're deciding whether or not you're gonna, you know, how are you gonna deal with being screwed together?

SPEAKER_05 1:01:36

And you know, my my reaction to a lot of you know what I viewed as her shortcomings, she to her credit has always been really accepting of me. Her her reaction to issues with me was more of like she she gets small sometimes in in response to some of my bad qualities. My response is very kind of alpha male. Like I get annoyed, and I think to myself, essentially in my head, the thought is I shouldn't have to put up with this shit. Like, I'm why why am I putting up with this stupid shit?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:12

That's what and I've talked to other men. Turns out we're all thinking this. I know this is generally, I think there's some sort of male ego at play there.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:24

Tolerance, yeah. That is often what we feel in a marriage is a level of superiority, of like we shouldn't have to put up with this shit. And I know I felt that. And so, what does that mean? Anytime that she annoyed me, instead of helping the problem, I actually would exacerbate it by the way I was reacting, which was like, why like why are you fucking saying that? Why are you doing that? Or you don't have to do that, you know, very condescending or you know, reactions that would only make things worse. And and I I I think by the time we got married, what I had realized was that you know you're the part of like part of what marriage is is a call of duty to actually be the hero to your partner's weaknesses, to actually, you know, see uh see and love the parts of a person that you or maybe even that person doesn't maybe may not be more inclined to love as much. Um in fact it's reminding me of one of my, you know, I'm sure you've listened to the Stephen Colbert episode on Anderson Cooper's podcast. It's unbelievable. And you know, I think he talks about grief and how it's like this whole it's like you have to carry grief with you in its entirety for the good and the bad, and it's a partner. And I think similarly, your actual partner, look, my own growth in life, in loving myself, was realizing was figuring out a way to love the bad parts of me along with the best friend to the bad parts. And I think that's by the time we had had Saatchi, I think I came to realize that like the things about her that I found annoying were actually in great part, you know, the things about her that are beautiful. And if anything, when those moments hold her back, and I like that's actually my opportunity to put on my cape and be the hero to her that she's like show up as a partner. Yeah. More often than not, she's been that to me. She she's always accepted me for my many very loud shortcomings, which usually well, that's the hardest challenge, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:33

And I feel like if you, you know, a large part of this is like your own inner healing is like if you can't love and accept the parts you hate about yourself, like how are you gonna love and accept the parts that bother you? Like, obviously, a lot of the time what bothers us and our partner is like a mirror to what might be bothering us about ourselves, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:04:54

So I'm seeing case with things that bother you in general.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:58

Yeah, I'm nodding my head so much because my like my husband and I have gone through, and we've been together for 12 years too. So maybe it has something to do with the 12-year mark or whatever, but we've gone through our own, you know, hardships too, and have had to do a lot of individual work and couple work. But ours was like kind of backwards. Like our hardships, I feel came after the grief and like the moment where you can kind of exhale and like kind of canvas your life. And like you're like, oh my God, like what did we just go through? Right. It it it's it's hard. It's hard to grieve as a couple. But I loved that explanation for sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:35

I think, yeah, I'm I'm curious what your experience. I mean, look, the fact of the matter is, is when you go through like like I tell people all the time that I don't think I really loved my wife till after we went through this. And it's not that I didn't love her, it's just that I don't think now I know what love is, and it's this thing that we've built together. And maybe there's this other element of it that led us to marrying each other and committing to each other, but There's something I feel for her now, and there's a level of safety and comfort that I feel that I know I didn't have before. And I just think that you can you can't really like your intimacy is limited. Like this is a weird thing to say because I'm not saying, you know, that you know, maybe God has a plan, I guess is my point. No, um we we the the thing that you and us, like we are fortunate for is because we went through such horrible shit with a partner, that means we got to dig that much deeper and get to know like we're that much closer than like I feel like we got what maybe other marriages might take 20, 30 years to figure out, or maybe never figure out, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:47

Like I feel like we got a level of grit to our It's like, here you go, let's see if your marriage can like handle this, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:06:58

By the way, yeah, you know, my attitude right away was, and I think this is because we had done so much work and grown so much. The day that Satchi was born, you know, my that day I remember thinking to myself, like, this is probably this is definitely the worst thing I've gone through up and to date. And therefore, it's going to be my and my family's biggest opportunity in Dave. And so, you know, while it's important to feel and grieve, it's also important to like see it as like a weirdly incredible opportunity to for growth individually and together.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:37

Well, it really is like putting your marriage under like a pressure cooker, right? And it's like, I'm gonna catapult you guys like 50 years into your marriage because I'm gonna make you, you know, really have to come together to get through this and give you these challenges that let's be real, most couples don't go through. Like they don't, like every couple loses their parents, right? Not every couple loses a child, and not every couple can survive losing a child, and there's a reason why. And yeah, I just really, really appreciate that perspective because man, it's hard. In all fairness, like bringing home a baby though, too, like your first is hard. Like it's really hard, and especially on a marriage.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:25

But it's hard.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:26

It is, it's hard, it's all hard, but then you add all this other stuff to it. Like, I mean, in her defense, like it would be really hard to be traveling with my new baby. And like high premises is like horrible.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:40

The metaphor that I give my my friends who are you know single and you know, you know, to the audience, I'm probably the most emotionally intelligent of all my guy friends. So I've already myself as an idiot, and I'm letting you know that I'm their leader. So that's the state the leader of the idiots.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:00

Aren't you so lucky?

SPEAKER_05 1:09:02

That's the state of masculinity. So I'm sorry. It's yeah. Well the metaphor I was giving is like, you know, marriage is it's a business. Like when you when you're when you're when you're when you're dating someone, like this is why it's so hard. Going back to what we were talking about earlier. When you're dating someone, you're like, oh, like we like hang, like we like eating together. We like fucking great.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:22

We should do this forever.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:24

But we're like sharing all the fun stuff, like, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:27

But the minute you start, the minute you decide to say yes, all that stuff becomes so far away from all this other shit that had nothing to do, like you start buying a house, you start you know figuring out money, then you have kids that you know these are all little businesses that you have to decide to run, and nobody knows. You never talked about whose job, like who's in charge of what, and how you guys are gonna work together in doing this thing. And so, like, especially parenting, which is like, you know, it obviously feels like this is a big deal, like we could fuck this up, so we'd rather not. Like it's a stress test on your marriage, and all totally is company, and every time you go through something big in your marriage, it's like another part of your business that you were not prepared for.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:17

An audit, right? It's an audit. Yeah, yeah, it's tough. Yeah, that's why I think therapy is so fucking important. I think it's so important, individual and episode, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:10:31

The way I the way I get all my dumbass bros to get into therapy is I tell them, hey, you know, therapy is a board meeting for your life. It's the all it's it's it's I don't know why it's not standard for everyone, but you would do it for a company once it gets slightly big because you know that it matters. All you're doing is you're having a meeting to set and track goals. And sometimes it's triage, sometimes it's aspirational, but you need to have that meeting where you talk about your goals.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:56

Also, same thing as like going to the gym to take care of your body, right? It's like go to the therapist to take care of your marriage. Like, this is the most important, like it's a foundation of your life. Like, why wouldn't you give it love and attention? I think it's so important that you're saying this because there are so many men that are scared of talking about their feelings and going there. And I'm always like, but why? Like it's going to make your life better. Like, have you ever heard the expression like happy wife, happy life? Like, yeah it's true, like just to be a cliche, but it it ultimately will serve you, right? So I'm glad that you are able to say that.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:40

I originally did I tell you that I talked to dad about therapy? Did I tell you about this?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:43

Oh yes, I think he told me that when he was here this past time, right?

SPEAKER_06 1:11:49

I was in Charlotte, and uh that's where she that's where he lives.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:52

And I'm trying to think what we were talking about. Oh, he's writing, he just turned 80, and so he's writing his memoir. You know, he's that he's at that point in life where he's thinking about legacy and shit, you know, and and and how you know I've made, you know, I've made and been in, you know, multiple kind of documentaries, right? So I'm familiar with the process of you know uh telling stories of your own life and also the introspection and the discovery that you the opportunity do like that. And so I was talking to me about that. And I was like, you know, he he he's he's very opportunistic, you know, he's like an immigrant, and so he's just always thinking like money and the marketing and all that stuff. And I was like, you know, the number one thing that's gonna make this, yeah. I was like, when you're doing something like this, you have to ask yourself, what's the why? Why are you doing it? Like if you're doing it to make money, is that really you don't need money? Like, that's not why you're doing it. Is it he's like, no? I'm like, okay, so then stop thinking about the marketing, stop thinking about the business. Like the why is because you want this to be an experience that you know helps you dig into your life and understand not only where you've been, but maybe where you're going. And if you want to do that, I think you need to figure out a way to dig into your story that goes beyond what you've always done, which is just thinking on your own. And that could be reading books that maybe reframe your perspective. It could be watching other documentaries. And, you know, honestly, I was like, you know, therapy is going to be the most direct way to do it, because you have this third party coming in and asking questions. And, you know, and then I explained to him how, you know, we the way we tell the story of our life is simply a story that's in our head. And, you know, that means it's always you telling the story. But as you know, there's always multiple perspectives to the story. When you bring in a therapist, you have a chance to hear that story maybe a different way or tell it from a new perspective. And anyway, by the time we were done, he was like, Because his, you know, his attitude towards therapy is just like everyone else, like most other people who have the same antiquated theory, which is that it's something you do when something's wrong with your thing. Right. And then I explained to him and I gave him the whole board meeting thing, which of course hit well.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:10

Um, and that's well, it's a very like good analogy for a man. Like, I yeah, it is a good analogy for a man.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:18

So I I mean, I'll put half this country therapy off that analogy. I mean, I every every dude I've ever hung out with gets that talk. Um but my dad, I mean, by the time we're done, he's like, you know, I've never, he's like, that I've never thought about there. He's like, I think I finally understand it for the first time. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:40

See, your your working on yourself is also like trickling onto others, which is like so beautiful, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:14:47

And it's gonna even trickle more because it's a more genetically dogmatic family. Yeah. Most oppressively. We we like to we like to tell people what we're doing and make them do the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:58

Okay, I love that. Yeah, yeah. All right, I have two questions to to wrap things up with. My first question is what is like one thing that you would want every Nikku parent, you know, no matter what the outcome may be, what would you want them to know if you could speak to them?

SPEAKER_06 1:15:23

I feel like this is a good thing for you to answer.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:28

I I have no I I don't think I have any meaningful advice, honestly. I mean, other than I think like understand that the people working there are trying. Like I think the the one thing that really bothers me is when I see people being mean to workers in the NICU because they didn't frame things in the in something, frame a statement in the way that was most thoughtful or just there's there's this kind of like customer service type approach that I see people take in the NICU and like having like the amount of stress that all these people are under and the work over they're all overworked. And so, you know, I think if it's not the experience you want, which is very possible, if not likely, is going to happen, I think approach the conversation with compassion. And if they make a mistake, approach it with compassion because people will make mistakes. Yeah, for sure. When crazy shit's going on, I don't know whether it's a fight between couples or a family's experience in the NICU. Anytime there's anything that's crazy going on, I don't think anyone knows the perfect script. So it's like, it's like if you were to, if you were to get mad at your partner because they sucked at be getting in an argument with you, no couples would exist because we all make mistakes, we all say the wrong thing, we do the wrong thing, we think the wrong thing. Like because it because because you know, these bad moments in life are so inherently imperfect. And so if you understand that, then it allows you to take a more compassionate approach to it. It definitely makes what I thought was a decent answer, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:08

That was a good answer. See? You did have in one second. I think I would say if you find yourself post-NICU, like it again, regardless of what your experience was and your outcome, if you find it still kind of living in you, like still feeling like you're alarmed at the sound of beeps or certain smells or other sounds, or like in our case, we often drive by, you know, Vanderbolt. So I see it, you know, multiple times a week and have since Sachi died. Like any reminders, if they still feel like they kind of live with you, like just know that that that isn't just your experience, you know? It doesn't mean you don't need to do anything with it. It doesn't mean don't go to therapy or do some type of work in it. But I just think sometimes people don't expect, especially when their babies come home, they don't expect, like, oh, why does that like after they transmit? Why does why am I still, why am I still thinking about it? Or why does, you know, I why do I still jump at the sound of the beep or to know that like I think there's just such a spectrum of like post-NICU experiences, and I think just they're all normal.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:17

Okay, my next question is I'd love to hear what your favorite thing is about Sachi.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:27

Well, she I mean, I think newborns are kind of scrunchy. I think the majority of people, when they tell you you're newborn, like your baby's so beautiful, they're not being beautiful. And I look back at all four of our kids, and I think three of them look like little scrunchy funky things. And Sasagi was the outlier, like hands down, the most beautiful newborne I've ever seen. Like, so perfect, so much hair, perfect skin color. Like my other thing about her is like how she would squeeze our hands. And there's a video that I have. A friend of mine just pointed it out, actually, because I posted it for her third birthday where Only's reading to her and she raises, she keeps raising her hand in the video, like it's like as she's sort of like responding to her sister. So I didn't see a lot of that too. She has little mittens on, like, because she kept scratching herself. So I love, and we have we have a lot of videos like that where yeah, she's like tacking like squeezing her hand or raising her hand. I love that.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:53

That was really beautiful, but vapid nonetheless because it's based on looks, but there's lots.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:59

And it's like beauty.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:01

Yeah, you you have a change. Um I mean, when I think about Satchi, I what do I love about her?

SPEAKER_05 1:20:14

I feel as you know, I did just talk, we just celebrated her third birthday and I was talking about how would I think about when I think about her. And uh it's like I carry so much like a spectrum of emotions when I think about her. Like I feel so much pain, like even right now, as I'm thinking about her, like such a heaviness. And it's because I'm so used to feeling it in regards to her, you know what I mean? So it's it'll always be there. Um but then when I like visualize her, I see like I see like these butterflies that would pop up when we'd go for walks in the weeks after we lost her. I see you know, Mahaly and Amelie you know, like reading a book a book together, you know, with her. I know this is a crazy, but like my my favorite thing about her, like I'm not a religious person, but the way she's with us today and the way like you know, she lives in all of us. Like the primarily, like when I think of like what I love most of Asachi is is her. Like I think about what she's if this doesn't get me late, I don't know. Well, this feels pretty good. I'm like the most crass guy.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:33

Molly, you just message me after this and tell me all the parts you want to edit out.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:39

I've ruined this podcast, all the wholesomeness out.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:43

Hey, you know what? Comedic relief is nice.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:46

Uh no, but that I mean that's I I think about I like she's in our life, in our lives every day. And I mainly think that the reason why she's in our lives every day is Mi Haley. And I I just think the way that Ma Mahaley is still her mother every day and has brought like I just I just feel very fortunate in general, and I and I and I and I also just look at her two little siblings who it's such a weird thing to be to know that they're here because of her. And yeah, and I still think about her every day, but it's mostly good things, is what's crazy. I just look, I just I I see especially with her, who has struggled. Surprise, when I said the surprise thing is anxiety, that's her. She has a lot of anxiety, and so she's she's struggled at times to see the light in life. And you know, when you've been through darkness, and I think you probably know this yourself, the light shines so much brighter. And I don't know that I've had a bad day since these kids were born. I don't nothing fucking matters, nothing is that bad. I I just every day, every single day, like I was going for a walk with my buddy, he was visiting me the other day. And it was just a nice day, and I was walking with the babies, and he's and I go, Man, how great is this? How good is life? You know, I said that and uh he goes, Do you really feel that way?

SPEAKER_06 1:23:27

I go, Yeah, I think I do.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:30

Like I feel such deep gratitude for my life. I feel gratitude for the things I have. I know that life is precious, and I know that nothing around me is forever and nothing can be counted on. And so I appreciate every day that I get and every relationship I have and every smile I get, every bit of sunlight is an absolute fucking joy. And that is because I know what it's like to be joyless. And so she gave that to us.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:11

Her presence in our lives is pretty like pretty remarkable.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:18

Guys, that's so beautiful. Interesting. Oh, yeah. Like I was just talking about this with my girlfriend. Cause like I too, you know, used to really struggle with anxiety. And you're making me cry since welcoming my daughter, you know, two and a half years ago. I feel like I haven't been anxious. Like, I am like my friends were like talking about all their anxieties, and I'm like, I literally don't feel that. And I don't know if that means I'm just like inherently messed up, but I just feel this like immense gratitude for my life because I have been in the darkest place that you can imagine. And I don't care about some of the stuff like that you guys care about. I'm just inherently rewired differently than you, possibly. And part of that, you know, I hate, you know, everything happens for a reason. That's another one I hate. But my daughter dying gave me that gift. She showed me like most profound human experience that you could find or feel. And then my daughter that my rainbow baby showed me another human experience. And I'm just like, whoa, crazy. And like my daughter who's past, she is so embedded in our life. And same as my son, I I've lost William and Vienna. That you know, I talk about Vienna a lot because she was the catalyst, like she's the one that exposed me. But both of them, they're so interwoven in my life that like I constantly have that reminder, you know, like on the tough days, I'm like, this is nothing. Like they're tough, but like you have no idea. Like it could be, it could be worse. And I also just like feel so grateful that I do have their presence in my life and that connection to them. And through my daughter now, too, like they're still a part of my family, our family. I wish it was different, but I'm almost grateful that I at least get them in this capacity, if anything, right? So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:44

Those are beautiful names. Thank you. Vienna, I I think about this a lot with Saatchi. I'm like, man, that was the best fucking name.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:52

Same as Vienna. I think about that too. I love the name. I love the name Saatchi. I actually know a Saatchi, and every time you say her name, I'm like, I love that name. Yeah. Well, you guys, it's been such a great conversation. I've loved spending time with you. I feel like I could talk to you for the rest of the afternoon. I'm really looking forward to, you know, sharing your story and Sashi's story. And like, there is a whole other big part of your story that we haven't tapped in. So I feel like I'm gonna have to have you come back because I do want to know more about the babies that came after and like what that experience was like. Like, holy cow, two under two and going through a pregnancy after loss again and deciding to have a surrogate. Like, there's so much in there that we could dive into. But I just want to thank you so much. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:46

We have we we we weirdly look forward to this kind of conversation because it's just a special kind of connection to have with someone else. And I I I have such admiration for the work you're doing. By the way, two kids is the are two new kids are. Great and it's super easy, right, Mayley? Yeah. It's a walk in the park and we're loving it.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:07

It's so easy. It's so easy when I'm in New York. When I'm in New York, it's so easy. When I'm done, it is so easy.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:19

We just have endless amounts of money and resources. I love it. Time together. And you know, all we're doing is like doing new hobbies together and so much romance. I don't want to get into those details, but it's constantly.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:32

Oh yeah. Guys, if anyone's looking to connect with you, where can they find you?

SPEAKER_05 1:28:38

Mahaley will be in her room with the cats. She notoriously does not post anything in the house. She was talking about it this morning. I don't. I prefer to. I guess what? Instagram? We're both on Instagram, yeah. So Mahay Patel and I think mine is Mahaley H.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:56

Patel. The reason Mahaley Patel is.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:58

We'll include it in the show notes. We'll include your your Insta handles and you know your book, a link to your book.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:04

I'm show me the Ruby, which is an outdated Jerry Maguire reference. I love it. What I did at the time. Um and yours is at Mahaley H. Patel. Is it really H. Patel?

SPEAKER_03 1:29:17

Wait, you have two Instagrams. But I think it was taken by you. I mean, Patel is probably a very popular last name, I feel.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:26

But there's no Haley's.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:30

Well, thank you so much, you guys. It's been such a pleasure chatting with you today.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:35

Chris, it's so nice to meet you. You're awesome. Let's be in touch. And thanks again.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:39

Bye. Thank you so much for tuning in today. If this episode touched your heart, it would mean the world to me if you took a moment to rate and review the Rainbow Connection. Your words help this podcast reach other mothers who need to hear these stories, the ones still searching for hope, for comfort, and for connection after loss. Every review, every star, every kind word truly makes a difference. Thank you for helping me keep these stories alive. I'll see you in the next episode.