Iconic Dealmakers Part 1: Frank Dileo

Our first iconic dealmaker is Frank Dileo, who was Michael Jackson’s manager through the Thriller and Bay World years and executed some of the most iconic deals in the music business. 

Transcript

Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Welcome to Music Row Deal Makers, where we explore our world of making deals from Nashville's famed Music Row in the heart of Music City. We are the deal makers, from composing to closing. Now, here's your hosts, Barry Neil Schrum and Dennis Disney.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Hello there and welcome to Music Row Dealmakers from Composing to Closing. I'm your host for this podcast, Barry Neil Schrum, and we are coming to you live from the epicenter of deal making in Nashville's famous music role. Today we're beginning a 10-part series in this podcast entitled Iconic Dealmakers, during which we'll examine some of the most famous deal makers, some of the most interesting deals in the annals of the entertainment industry history. We're going to glean from those stories about these various deal makers, general principles that we can use in making and closing deals ourselves. The first uh iconic deal maker we're going to look at is uh a man named Frank DeLeo. Frank died, unfortunately, in 2011 at a relatively young age of 63. He was, if you don't know, Michael Jackson's manager during the most uh successful period of Michael's life, the thriller years and and the bad world years. And Frank executed uh some of the most iconic deals in the music industry, one in particular with with the Pepsi Cola company that had has kind of set the standard for endorsement deals and those kinds of deals at in general. First, I'm going to kind of introduce my connection to Frank and talk about that a little bit, just as a way of introducing the topic, and then I'm going to bring in my partner, Dennis Disney, and we're going to talk a little bit about the aspects of that deal. I first met Frank in the mid to late 2000s. Frank had moved back to Nashville and established a new entertainment company here dealing with a new artist, representing them as a publisher and as a as management. And when he returned to Nashville, author Jack Silverman from the Nashville scene wrote an article, a cover story about Frank returning to Nashville that appeared in the Nashville scene on November 22nd, 2007. It was entitled Hit Men, like the more famous book of the same name, which we'll talk about a little bit later. In that article, uh Silverman paints a caricature of Frank, which was apropos, I should say, according to Silverman, quote, there's speculation that that when Frank emerged from the womb, he already had a cigar in his mouth, end quote. And of course, the the cover picture for the Nashville scene that that that portrayed Frank was in sepia tone and had Frank leaning back as he often did with his cigar in his hand. You never saw Frank without that cigar. And then add to that the gold jewelry that Frank wore, the gold watch, pinky ring, on his manicured hands. And it looked like Frank sort of stepped out of central casting as a music business deal maker. And, you know, if you've seen him in the Wayne World movies as Mr. Big, that's exactly Frank's persona. Truly, at the age of 35, Frank was perhaps the most powerful man in the entertainment industry, and no small part uh in response to his representation of Michael Jackson. And that's why we selected him to kick off our discussion of big deals and deal making and look at his uh career. Frank goes back a long way. He goes back to the 70s and 80s, and he launched the careers not only of Michael Jackson, but of Ario Speedwagon, Ozzie Osborne, Gloria Stefan, Luther Vandross, Meatloaf, Cynthia Lauper, Culture Club, and and many others. And he, as an executive, took epic records from the position of number 14 in the market all the way up to number one, garnering him executive of the year along with 80 gold records. Because of Frank's success in representing the thriller album as VP of National Promotions, Jackson came to Frank and asked him to manage him, which he started doing in March of 1984. Frank was, of course, the executive director for Michael Jackson's Thriller Video and The Bad World Video, the latter of which was directed by none other than Martin Scorzese. And because of that relationship, Frank set out temporarily on a movie career, the aforementioned Mr. Big and the Wayne World movies, uh, but also notably Tutty uh in the Scorzese film Goodfellows. And in the vein of art imitating life, Frank's portrayal of a of a gangster, a made man in Goodfellows. Frank was often allegedly connected to organized crime. And I say allegedly because he would never really admit it I represented Frank in in those years when he was in back in Nashville in the 2000s. Because he was apart from his wife who was back home in Ohio, I would often go to dinner with Frank and have drinks with Frank, just to to sit around and and be able to pick the brain of that cultural giant. But when I would prod Frank about his connections with organized crime, he of course was a little bit sheepish, would never come out and directly admit it. But occasionally you could pick up on veiled references from him and others about those years. For starters, Frank began life in the entertainment industry as a rack jobber in the early 60s. In those years, uh rack jobber essentially went around to local record stores and distributed product for the record labels. However, in its connection with organized crime, those rack jobbers would also distribute counterfeit recordings produced by the mafia to those legitimate record stores as a way of laundering their money. Another point in history, Frank was uh arrested and fined in Ohio for illegal gambling. And that was between his stents as a record exec and after Jackson had released him. When when the the article, the the author of the article, Mr. Silverman, asked Frank about that for the Nashville scene article. Frank commented, Well, did I do time? No. Did I pay a fine? Yes. That's probably as close as he ever came to admitting some connection to organized crime. There was also a story about a mob boss in Ohio, a guy named Joseph Little Joe Naples, who was part of the La Rocca crime family, who was gunned down outside his home in Youngstown. Car he was driving at that time was Frank DeLeo's Ford Mustang Convertible. So the connections go on and on. In the the Frederick Dannon book, the 1990 book entitled Hitman Power Brokers and Fast Money Inside the Music Business, Dannan identifies him as heavily relying on independent record promoters. And if you know anything about the industry, that is a CD side of the industry. And often organized crime would use that to move the songs up quickly on the charts in order to facilitate the distribution of those counterfeit records I referred to earlier. But despite these connections from Frank's somewhat shadowy past, the DeLeo I knew was an incredibly kind and generous man. And as I said, I learned a lot about him from about the business. So I I owe a little bit of a debt of gratitude to Frank. May he rest in peace. But more importantly, for this show, Frank was a consummate dealmaker. And he was a powerhouse in the music business. He could get almost anything done. And that's why for us, for this show, for Music Road Dealmakers, we're going to examine the Pepsi deal that I referred to earlier. Pepsi deal is referred to by the Guinness Book of World Records as, quote, the biggest commercial sponsorship deal ever struck between a corporation and a performer. So at this point, I'm going to bring in my friend Dennis Disney, and we're going to talk about this deal and look at this six million dollar deal that he put together and how it was accomplished. So we'll be right back with with Doug and

Deal Point Dissection

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Dennis.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

Yeah, I don't think they did either. You know, the interesting thing, my wife knew I was really, because I was very heavily involved in marketing back then. Right. And she knew I was really interested in that whole story. And I had purchased, I believe it was the Coke book about new Coke and all that went on.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Well, that was a big flop.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

And you know, and there's rumors that it was a designed flop for marketing purposes. Interesting. After I looked at it over the years, I don't think that's the case. I think they just messed up. But all that to say, that Christmas, she bought me a the book on Pepsi, and she said, I thought you would want to know the other side of the story. So you know, so I had both of them at that time. Both were very interesting reads.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

I remember, yeah, I've got a very distinct memory of myself walking across David Lipscomb College when I was a student in the early 80s, 82, 83. And, you know, there's this big white band with, you know, the food band where they have the side propped up, and of course it had Pepsi Challenge written on the side of it. Take the Pepsi Challenge. And they had little cups, you know, two little cups set up. You did you ever do one of those?

SPEAKER_02 11:13

I never did. I always thought it was really interesting. I saw all the commercials, but but I will say this at the risk of alienating a potential sponsor of this podcast, I would tell my wife, I said, I like Coke better, but I loved Pepsi's marketing.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Well, this is true. And that's really what this deal with Frank DeLeo is all about, isn't it? It's it is the marketing aspect and and and really what both of them achieved in the deal, Pepsi and Michael Jackson, in propelling Pepsi to the point where they did overtake Coca-Cola during those years when they were with Michael Jackson. So that's what we're talking about today. I and and one of the unique, I guess, viewpoints I have about this comes from some of the times I spent with Frank DeLeo here in Nashville when he returned in the 2000s to set up his own little entertainment company here, just back here on the music circle South. And he and I would often meet at various restaurants and bars across town after after work, and I enjoyed doing that with him a lot. And uh not the least of which was because I got to hear stories like this. And um one of the um connections that that I think he told me about that he made when he was thinking about this, this was right after the time when he started representing Michael Jackson. He moved out of the label and Jackson asked him to represent him as manager. And this was sort of his first big push for Michael. Victory, I think, was the name of the album or the tour that they were about to do. And Frank wanted a big sponsor. And at the time, Michael Jackson, you may remember, was called King of Pop, right? So Frank being from Western Pennsylvania and Ohio, of course, pop for him was associated with cola. Yeah, you know, that's what that's what that region calls cola, and that's that's fine. So for him, King of Pop, naturally, he's thinking, okay, let's get a cola to sponsor the tour. And so for for DeLeo, he he recognized the fact that it was a younger generation that enjoyed Michael Jackson's music. So that's how he kind of connected, and he says, okay, Pepsi has this thing, choice of a new generation. So Pepsi, pop, king of pop, nice fit. So Frank went into this looking to get Pepsi. So if that were you back in the eighties, and you were thinking and and you just said you were interested in Coke and Pepsi from a marketing standpoint, which one would you gravitate toward?

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Oh, well well, I mean, from a youth marketing perspective, oh, by far it was Pepsi with not only the tagline, obviously a very intentional approach to to position the the product, but I I don't know the relative ages of it, but my understanding is Coke was already much older, and Coke had been very engaged actually with a lot of stuff going back into World War II and before. Right. Matter of fact, there are pictures of soldiers uh either in the Pacific or the European Theater one unloading crates of Coca-Cola that have been sent over. So by the time you get to the 80s, when you think about it, you go, well, how do I position my beverage different than that? Well, those guys were dealing with that old generation, the fathers and grandfathers of who I think we want to get to. And and and so in setting that up and identifying a very specific target market, which as a marketer, that's what you do, right? You you find the audience that's going to be core for what your product is and who's going to consume your your product best. And then you try to grow it for sure. But you have to have a distinction, a differentiation. And I will say, I, even though I liked, as a personal choice, liked Coke better, I grew up on Pepsi. My father bought Pepsi at the house growing up. My uncle, who I worked for as a he was my foreman when I worked construction during the summers, and he always kept a cooler in the back of his pickup truck with Pepsi's. And I will tell you, this is I'm I'm I'm I'm country, just so you know. So, but I can tell you one of my favorite lunchtime meals in the summer was a can of potted meat, some saltine crackers, a green onion, and an ice cold Pepsi.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

But having said that, especially by the time I got married in 1984, I was a Coke drinker at that point and still am. Yes, same here.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Same here. If I'm gonna have a soda, I'm gonna have Coca-Cola. And when you think about it, okay, so we got that goal. And and you just said you would have that same, I guess, read on the marketing and the endorsement. So, but you also know that Coca-Cola has spent millions of dollars marketing over the years. So for Frank, it was like, okay, what can I do with that? If I know Coke is going to give me a sponsorship, you know, how high can I get Coke and then take that and leverage Pepsi. So Frank started with Coca-Cola, even though his end goal was Pepsi. And the end result, and I'll talk a little bit more about this later, but the end result of that was Pepsi went to six million, you know, almost three times or four times what Coca-Cola was willing to pay for the same sponsorship. So Frank convinced uh Roger Enrico, who was the CEO at the time of Pepsi, to sponsor that the victory tour. And uh not only that tour, but the album production and and and as you know, the video production and all of that as well. And then when they renewed for the next tour, it was ten times that up to $50 million. So, and and that was an upfront payment. That's something else Frank wanted in the deal.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

Of course, for that second deal that you're talking about, right? They now had some history because my understanding is that the first campaign, the six million dollar campaign as you were describing, right, that sales for Pepsi jumped to over $7.7 billion in that year, that in the year of 1984.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

And as you and I know, that's leverage.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

That's yes, huge leverage.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Yeah, yeah. And and I understand, too, that the uh the deal included a lot of uh tie-ins and and uh and other things. You could yeah, I think you have a little bit more read on that than I do.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

Yeah, I went back and looked at some of the stuff that was involved with with that campaign, and it was pretty broad, very multifaceted, not only the advertising and a ton of that that included television and radio and billboards and print ads and whatnot, but it also ended up being with logos on cans and there were displays in supermarkets, there were a bunch of uh what they call PR-friendly events. And the the cool thing about this, and I think we'll talk about this in in a little bit about how the in the celebrity endorser, so to speak, gets gets involved and probably should get involved to help them make these campaigns their own, so to speak. Bill uh Jackson actually said, Hey, let's use my song Billy Jean and let's rework the lyric a little bit on the hook. And they rewrote the chorus according to uh the article on Billboard from back then. They rewrote the lyric to say, quote, you're the Pepsi generation, guzzle down and taste the thrill of the day and feel the Pepsi way. And that was too that was to the track of Billy Jean.

SPEAKER_03 19:27

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:28

And that just goes to show the level of involvement. Of course, that was a creative approach that that Michael Jackson would bring to the table. He also did most of the choreography himself for the commercials, for the dances, and and those things. So that integration and participation, engagement, involvement of the endorser, celebrity endorser, is really critical to make these campaigns authentic.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

It really is. It takes a team. And uh we'll talk about that a little bit more later. One of the things that impressed me with Frank was his uh negotiation tactics when it came to this. Not only the the ability to pit Coca-Cola against uh Pepsi and Enrico, but his understanding of other levers such as timing. And of course, it was the perfect time, as we've already talked about, the synergy between King of Pop and and the focus on a new generation. But Frank wanted a little bit more urgent timing, as it were. So Frank concocted this idea that he would um he he would introduce himself to Enrico and tell him what he was thinking and ask him if he could fly out to LA with him for a guest show or invited him to a show in in California, if he would just let him ride on his Pepsi jet. So he did. So I don't know what it takes to fly from New York to LA in uh in a jet, but probably three, four hours. So there's your timing, right? He said, let's talk about that sponsorship of Jackson here. And by the way, I've got Coke waiting in the wings when we get there. So I can either sign their deal or I can sign your deal. So he put the pressure on him a little bit. And uh that allowed him to pull a number of the traditional levers of negotiation for achieving a deal. That's uncertainty, timing, and opportunity. And of course, for for the listeners who are uninitiated, leverage is is self-interest or or power or something that gives one of the parties in a deal more uh strength, as it were, uh, in negotiating than the other party. So while on that plane, he he combined all of those and he presented uh uh Pepsi with this opportunity. Uh and I understand there was a broker involved, and you can tell us a little bit more about that. But um on that four hour plane ride, he he He began the conversation. So Frank uh began with the most obvious obstacle in almost any deal, and that is the price. And he already had a seven-figure deal with Coca-Cola lined up and he he used that. And he said, okay, let's start the bidding at six million. It took a little bit, but Enrico agreed to the figure, assuming you know the rest of it was going to be easy. Okay, I'll agree to your six million.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Well, it's tough to walk out of the room when your room is a small tube at 45,000 feet.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Yeah, I'm gonna go to the restroom. Exactly. But uh once once Enrico agreed, then Frank threw in a little curveball, which as you know is very common in these negotiation things. Once you get everything you think lined up, the other side's almost always gonna give you, well, wait a minute, we gotta have this too. So he insisted, wait a minute, Roger, that that's great. I'm glad we struck a deal. But there is a catch. You got to put the money in up front. We want it all up front.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

So, question, and I don't know if Frank ever explained to you why. Why would he want all six million up front?

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Well, that's a good question. I don't know that I ever talked to him about that. Uh, what would you suspect?

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Well, first of all, I'm a believer, you've heard me talk about this before, when I'm doing artist deals and producer deals, publishing deals. I'm always pushing my client to get the money up front for a couple of reasons. I mean, get big advances if you can. I'm a believer in time value of money. So in this case, I'll use Michael Jackson money. Six million today is worth a whole lot more to me than six million paid out to me over the next three to five years.

SPEAKER_03 23:43

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

I can take that six million and do certain things with it. Now, there are implications for taxes in particular and how you structure some of that so that you don't lose a lot to the government and things. But I think that's a big part of it. There might have been some other special needs that Jackson was looking for, and that's why he wanted the big payout. I don't know. But big thing for me when I'm working on contracts and negotiating is what can we do with these advances to get the money now because of the time value of money. Now, interestingly, just this week, I'm working with a client on a new recording deal. It's actually tied in with a co-terminous publishing agreement. And I was pushing to get a higher advance, and the client's manager called me. He said, You know, I didn't explain it well enough to you. He said, candidly, we want the lower advance. And I'm like, why would you want that? And he said, Well, it's because we are positioning to sell the publishing catalog in the next two to three years. We want a little bit of an advance to help with some stuff, but we don't want to be too far in the hole so that we can get clean when we go to sell the company. That's that's a lot of sense. Makes a lot of sense. Obviously, you can do basically you can you can do payoffs, payouts, you know, that if if the buyer really wants it, and you know, you got, hey, I've got a hundred grand and unrecooped. Okay, we'll just pay the hundred grand as part of the purchase price. It comes out of that. But all that to say, you know, time value of money probably was a big thing for the for Jackson and and Frank at the time.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

I would imagine they had a lot planned for that six million when they had the upcoming tour.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Exactly. So I think that's probably a big, huge piece of it. Big part of it. Plus, you had Neverland out there that Jackson had to be able to do it. Yeah, yeah, still adding to a swimming pool or something. And a new giraffe uh arboretum or something.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

So you might imagine in Rico, he he uh he balked at that having the money up front, but DeLeo used a little bit of psychology on him. He said, uh, wait a minute, I I remember the Beatles endorsed Coca-Cola. You remember that? Have they ever endorsed Pepsi? He said, Did Elvis Presley ever do a commercial for Pepsi? And Rico said, Well, no. And so he said, What do you want to do? You want to be O for three, or do you want to go for this deal? So and Rico actually did go to the restroom at that point, and he came back. And what do you think he said? Well, we know what he said. You got a deal. So there it is. So you were saying something about a broker, and you know, very often in these types of deals where you're involved in seven figures or even eight or beyond, there will be other parties involved. So tell us a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_02 26:41

Yeah, the the there was a broker that got involved, and his name was Jake Holman, and um, he was CEO of a company called Entertainment Marketing Communications International. And so there are those marketing companies out there that are always on the look for packages they can put together. So he actually went to, at the time it was Pepsi's ad agency they use, BBDO, and started the conversations like that. If we could get somebody, who would it be? Hey, maybe we could get Michael Jackson, I can I can make connections. And that's what a broker really does is makes the makes the connections, if you will. The managers in this case, like a Frank DeLeo, may work on the big terms, six million dollars, if you will, and here's how much time I can give to you for Michael's personal involvement, you know, et cetera, et cetera. But a lot of times those brokers are the ones that work between the buyer and the seller in many cases, and then the attorneys, along with the managers, come in to actually then work out the deal points and get the final deal put together. In this case, the broker made the introductions, helped with the sale price, and then obviously Frank gets Enrico alone away from everybody and is able to close it. And that's that I will say, the brokers I've worked with on various projects, many are great at selling, but not always the best at closing. You know, and there is a separate skill involved with that. And my take on DeLeo, from everything I'd ever read about him from his radio promotion days on, he could sell, but he was really a closer.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

Oh my gosh. Him with his uh cigar, his his gold chains, and everything else, it uh it was definitely a closing point.

Walkaway Points

SPEAKER_01 28:39

All right, so uh listeners, if you have questions about anything we talked about today with Frank DeLeo, you can call us at 800 D E A L M K R Dealmaker or 332 5657, or you can send us an email at questions at musicrolldealmakers.com. So now, as we promised in the last episode, we're going to sort of give you some walkaway points from from all of that that we've talked about. And uh there are several, I think, that that both Dennis and I want to share with you. One of the things I I want to point out about Frank is is the planning and the strategy that went into this. You can do the same thing. And so DeLeo did enough research to understand that Pepsi needed a fresh face like the King of Pop to associate with the audience that they were seeking to sell to. I think that's a very important point. Understand the need of the parties. And Dennis, you had some thoughts on this when we talked about this.

SPEAKER_02 29:46

Yeah, it's it's everything has to come from the viewpoint of not just what am I getting, and this will be for every deal. And so over the course of this podcast, we'll probably repeat some of these things because they are true fundamentals. As an example or as an anecdote, the old football coach from the Bears, George Hallis, used to say he'd open up every spring training, back then, I guess it was summer training camp, and hold up a football and say, Gentlemen, this is a football. And the idea behind that is it's fundamentals. Fundamentals, fundamentals. So fundamentals in doing putting deals together, the first fundamental isn't what you want to get out of the deal. You already know that. But you have to have a sense of, or at least investigate and research enough what would the other side want to get out of this? And do I think I can make that work with both of us? And so you have to look at what's their objective in doing this. Obviously, we knew here the objective was to reach a younger generation, with at that time one of, if not the hottest artists on the planet. How do we do that? Great. DeLeo and Michael Jackson was we need cash, big cash, and we'd like to have all these other promotional pieces and tour sponsorships out there to help defray cost. Because the more cost we can defray with their involvement, the more money in my pocket. So it it's here's my objectives, there's your objectives, can they coexist? But within that, you also have to then prepare for the objections to what you're trying to get out of it, which I'm sure. Well, we know from from DeLeo. You just read it. The objection was, oh my gosh, you know, that's way too much money. Really? We've had these other two major icons. This is the third one.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:40

You want to be 0 for three? You want to give that one a cope, too? That's a great way to overcome that objection, and it obviously it worked. So know your objectives, know their objectives, find where it can work, but then prepare and anticipate objections. And I I heard a real estate salesperson one time say it this way, and I thought it was really brilliant. He said, When you come in to sell a house, if the buyer says, Well, the bathroom's too small, yes, but look at that huge patio and backyard. Well, it doesn't have a garage. It it doesn't, but look at the master bedroom, if if you will, and in and what you get with that. So it's always being say that's going to be an objection. We get that. Here's what I how I'm going to counteract it. That's a key part of putting any deal together.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

Yeah, it's um it can be simplified with the the famous win-win kind of situation, but when when we use phrases like that, we we really need to dig deep, like you're talking about, and understand. When I teach negotiating at Belmont, I talk about need, right? Both parties come to any deal with a need. And if you can isolate that, then that's going to help you address it just like your real estate agent. Do you really need a garage? Or are you looking for a large bedroom for that child you have planning, right? So that's knowing your the the party that you're making the deal with, knowing what their needs are and being able to turn the deal back to show them how that meets their needs.

SPEAKER_02 33:19

Well, very true. The the other two elements that come in there very quickly, I will say first, don't well, I should say don't. You need to know the value of what you're bringing to the table.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Right.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

Because too often in these in negotiations, you're just trying to get to the money, and you will oftentimes find yourself almost negotiating against yourself, and you end up with a lower value for what you're bringing to the table. Here, DeLeo stuck to his guns. He knew the value of a Michael Jackson and all the stuff that Michael could bring to the table for them. Obviously, it proved itself with the bump in sales to over 7.7 billion the following year. So don't undervalue what you do, but you have to have a realistic view of what your value is. I mean, you and I have both been involved in negotiations with even our clients who say, Well, I think I I deserve X. No, you don't. And we have to be able to tell you that and not to lose the client, but at the same time, it's just not plausible and realistic. We know the other side won't go there. So we need to take that out or adjust our expectations. And then we talked about objectives, and sometimes the objectives get very subjective and personal. I remember reading about Mark McCormick. You and I have talked about Mark McCormick, who founded ING meeting, what, back in the 60s. And when they moved into television production of golf tournaments and selling the sponsorships, so they were not only doing sports agenting work but in the sales aspect of it, they went for a big sponsor. I remember him telling the story. What they knew about the sponsor was that the CEO of that company had a huge, huge ego. So what did they do? Oh, we will actually interview him on national television during the golf match. Nice. It's amazing what a little, you know, a three-minute quick interview on national television will do to someone who is borderline narcissistic, has that huge ego. We're in. How much is it? I don't care. I'm writing the check. So you have to know, you know, the their not only their needs, but sort of the um personal characteristics and and idiosyncrasies of the people you're dealing with, and help feed into that with them. I mean, it's still very authentic. You know, it wasn't manipulative in any way. It was just, hey, we know who this guy is. Let's give him what he really craves. And it's not costing us anything.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

Yep. What is his need? What is his desire? Understand the quid pro quo, listeners, of your of your deal. Who uh what is the benefit of the bargain to both sides? Obviously, Pepsi benefited immensely by having Michael Jackson with the 7 billion bump and sales you talked about. And of course, Michael Jackson benefited tremendously with everything that he achieved through that sponsorship. So both parties did win-win, and that's that's the meaning, the true meaning of that. So remember that in your deals. Uh also remember the leverage tech techniques that that Frank used in his deal. John F. Kennedy once said, if you have leverage, negotiate. If you don't, get some, then negotiate. So that's very true. If you don't have any leverage, and all you're looking for is that money, you're going to end up with a bad deal.

SPEAKER_02 36:49

So yeah, very much so. You know, the I think inherent in all of this and in every deal, and you I think you were you were really touching on it, but the deal you put together, it it has to be something both sides can win with.

unknown 37:03

Right.

SPEAKER_02 37:04

The the old sales adage is it's much easier to keep a customer than to get a customer. Same thing here in a deal. It's much easier to keep your business partner than to have to go find another business partner next year, another tour sponsor next year. So if you are being so inflexible and so demanding and not willing to work with the other party, even if the money's not the issue, but the experience of working with you is, they don't want to continue that. Now you're back to zero, and you've got to do the whole thing over again, which is infinitely harder than just being a good partner and finding something that works for both of you.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

I think that's a good place to end, Dennis. I've enjoyed this episode. Hope you have as well.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

Music Row Dealmakers is a production of Schrump Disney and Associates.