From Flight Decks to Mountain Peaks: How Aviation Safety Transforms Ski Patrol (Part 2:2)

Part 2: The crossover between aviation and ski patrol safety principles reveals fascinating parallels. Both fields require clear communication during high-stress situations where emotions run high but must be controlled. Perhaps most powerful is Carl's philosophy of continuous mentorship where knowledge flows bidirectionally rather than just from senior to junior members. 

The PNWD History Project:  Shirley Cummings, the official history project coordinator, (& all around fabulous lady), has been on a mission: Collect and assemble an archive of stories and pictures from the different ski patrols within the Pacific Northwest Division. Hence, Patroller Chats was born! 

Chapters

• 0:00 The Stress Continuum Colors
• 4:23 Operational vs Personal Stress
• 9:25 Aviation Principles in Ski Patrol
• 17:14 Box Breathing for Crisis Management
• 19:49 Continuous Mentorship Philosophy
• 28:31 Patroller Commitment and Service
• 35:14 Creating Safety Through Visibility

Transcript

Murphy: 1:00

So, shifting thought and focus here for a second. So one of the other things that you have brought to the mountain which I do see some changes, although it is glacially slow is the concept of the green, orange or green, yellow, red. How are you feeling today?

Jodie: 1:21

Stress continuum colors.

Murphy: 1:23

What's that yeah?

Jodie: 1:24

the Stress continuum colors. That's the Stress continuum colors.

Murphy: 1:26

So in the stress continuum, how is that being received? You know I've talked to some people who you know are a bit old fashioned. Let's just say I wouldn't talk about anything. I don't want to talk, right. Are we getting some traction with that? Is it helping?

Carl Peecher: 1:51

I know I wind up, especially when I like talk to Jody. I'm a solid yellow. Today right, it's going orange into red gave the same Saturday morning brief and I actually went to three weekends in a row specifically to give this brief that I talked about. And I covered this issue because what I found out was people were misunderstanding what the intent of the stress continuum is, because I was blurring it with the operational stress and the personal stress and I had blurred those two things and I gave quite a dissertation on that. It's actually one of the videos I have posted.

Carl Peecher: 2:25

I believe I recorded the whole thing for separate, but there was a misunderstanding from, let's just say, some of the older generation in particular that the stress continuum was talking about what is personally going on with me. Am I morally, physically hurt? It is not about that, although that is a stressor and that is a stressor that could lead to an operational stress. That is concerning. So we've had that conversation and several of those very staunch patrollers that were telling me I'm not gonna talk about it, knock about my personal stuff with anybody these young kids that are leading that program came to me afterwards like, oh, that's different, thank you. Now I understand, and so there is a change. Whether you're ready, reacting, injured or critical, you know there is an understanding of, as you're moving through that stress continuum, how it applies to us, and that you can tell somebody.

Carl Peecher: 3:22

I am currently injured, I'm in the yellow right and that would do is an operational change to support the person who's in the yellow. So I might change a different path. I might choose to have a belay on the sled instead of just taking it down this hill. If I have an injured partner right Because they're telling me that I don't, in the operational sense, I don't care why they're injured, I carry that they're injured Right, and so that is the was the big communication breakdown and I own all of that is when I first portrayed it. I just blurred those two things together and I talked about are you injured? Make sure you tell your partners and then, of course, your partner is going to help you. And that blurring of the personal stress that we're going to solve over a beer down at the elk is different than the operational stress on the hill and how we're going to operationalize it on the hill is one of the things that what I feel has been missing the most is how we explain.

Jodie: 4:32

It can be as individualistic as from A to Z, so that people are understanding and where, initially, what we were seeing is you either had people that felt it was only one camp, only the other camp, and you can only talk about this or that. So when I can appreciate when you try to show the overall and where you use the word blur but how each can affect, but you don't have to go, like you said, deep in the weeds. You just need to have that common terminology to say that we can address of versus. I'm a little off today. Like you said, I don't need the details.

Jodie: 5:18

I need to know how effective and where the best spot for all of us to work at and be able to support each other where before it was. This is only a cisd situation on the hill and nothing else affects our lives and it's like.

Jodie: 5:36

No, that's not true either and it is hard to figure out how to express this, and where I've been is you have to keep morphing it and keep adjusting it so that everyone is understanding it, but you go back to some common terminology or uses. I mean, that's how we started off with the stop sign, the stop light red, yellow green, just to get everyone. What are we sort of talking about? Yellow green, just to get everyone? What? What are we sort of talking about? And where some talk about injured versus ready, I've seen the different. You know colors, up to five colors. It doesn't matter which one you take. You just you want everybody to be understanding the basics and how to move from there. But that's, that's an interesting point. I like, like how you explained that to share.

Carl Peecher: 6:26

Yeah, it's really critical to follow on a little bit. The history of this and this is purposely directed at our more elder that are less likely to accept this concept this came from the Marine Corps in Vietnam and even before that, even before, but the stress on the battlefield was noticed. But the Marine Corps actually started instituting this concept within their lance corporals and their young. Because if you were on patrol with your three, you know your patrol leader and you got your three others with you and you're out there. If you don't understand that every person is where they are currently, you all won't make it back. So you have to work together and have to know it.

Carl Peecher: 7:05

So if, arguably, one of the most bullheaded masculine groups at that time could figure out how to work through this, you know and the value of it. It wasn't again that you know. My Susie back home just wrote me a Dear John letter. That's great. Okay, you're injured, so let's be more cautious. We're going to go over that. We're going to change our routing and change where you're going to be in the lead, or maybe you're going to stay home and we're going to take Johnny with us instead, right? So just, those changes happen and it is entailing and I was raised in that world after it already started being instituting, but still being evolved.

Jodie: 7:41

It's communication, like you said, it doesn't have to be huge communication in depth, it's just you have a same way. And don't mind me, carl, I'm just not used to being called ma'am, but I know that you're military.

Carl Peecher: 7:56

I'll stop it then, if that really bothers you.

Jodie: 7:59

No, no, you're fine, I do it at work and they just look at me and I'm like it's how my parents raised me. So I wasn't in the military. You're fine, I do it at work and they just look at me and I'm like it's how my parents raised me. So I wasn't in the military, but I understand.

Carl Peecher: 8:07

Good.

Murphy: 8:11

So I got another question for you. Okay, so here we go. You know we've talked about how you've brought a lot of the airline procedures and policies and checklists and things to the patrol. Have you gone the other way and taken anything that you've learned at the patrol into the pilot world?

Carl Peecher: 8:28

Absolutely, absolutely. I have I can't really put a specific on it but I've absolutely take things I've learned from patrollers and brought it over the crisis management and response. When I've watched that modeling behavior by someone who is very experienced and very knowledgeable and very comfortable, I've definitely brought that back. The idea to be able to find and carmentalize which is something we all do but be able to take this incredibly stressful moment and not let the stress of the injured person affect your stress level and not let the stress of the injured person affect your stress level. That was something I brought with me back. Right, you know so, because and I realized that and I started noticing it in some of my crews when I put them in the simulator, I put them in incredibly complex situations and I say I, all of us instructors do, we purposely build the training so that you stress you beyond your level and you can see one person get hyper, hyper, hyper stressed and when that one person's stressed, when you see the other partner, the captain or the first officer get pulled into that stress pit of despair with them, that is a problem, nobody's there. So I've mentored many times where, like you can't let the injured person in that case, your partner, who is injured and scared about the event they're going through, drag you down too. You have to take a step back, look at it and rise above it. So that is something I've distinctly learned from this. Where you know, being on scene is something incredibly stressful and you see one person diving off and getting overly worried about the person screaming rather than what is the right step next, and the person's going to scream because they're hurt badly but being able to move on.

Carl Peecher: 10:12

I was thinking of my son had a dislocated shoulder and it was a horrible dislocation. This was one of the four family members, me being two of them that helped me join patrol. It was on Sluice Way, upper Sluice Way, and he was partway down. I had hiked back up the hill to get to him as the patrollers got to him to care for him and the doctor showed up. And the doctor had such a calming, reassuring way. He relocated, reduced the shoulder, on the scene, but of course, doug was screaming in pain, and it's rightfully so, but watching that doctor manage it in a crisis manner of just what is right, okay, this is what we're going to do, this is the next step, and we were able to talk him through and then did the motion and it went back in and there was an immediate release of everybody involved.

Murphy: 11:20

So, yeah, that is a distinct skill that I, that your patient is feeling and being able to still function and operate, and make sure you can deliver. You know, whatever care you've got to deliver to get them down the mountain and yeah, I know it hurts and you're being tough, but I got to do what I got to do to get you out of here, and that's one of the things I've learned on the hill is I address the patient when they're screaming.

Carl Peecher: 11:42

I understand this hurts Absolutely and I'm going to come back to it, we're going to work on it, we're going to get you better, we're going to get you safe, but I have to do these things in order to make it happen effectively. And that usually is a calming event for the guest as well, the injured guest, because just them understanding that you recognize and acknowledge their pain and suffering and what they're going when you're moving on to do the other task. You have to do these other tasks. I will come back to this, I will get this, we will come after it, but we have to make this scenario be right for you.

Jodie: 12:13

As the saying goes, their emergency is not your emergency. You're absolutely right. Yeah, yeah.

Carl Peecher: 12:21

That's the saying they taught us. Justin taught us that in OEC and moved us along. I'm sure it's been around for a long time, definitely in the medical, that's for sure, but it's anywhere.

Jodie: 12:32

It's anywhere where you have to be. Whether you're a pilot, whether you are a ski patroller, it doesn't matter. But if you've got to keep your head in the game, then you got to remember this is not your emergency and, just like you said, you have to prioritize and do what you've got to do. And they're focused on one thing and one thing only. So that's an awesome.

Carl Peecher: 12:53

Early last year I introduced box breathing to the patrol. I don't know if I introduced it, but I brought it up. How about that? It may have already been introduced, but I brought it up as a formal moment to talk about, where you breathe in for four seconds, hold for four seconds, breathe out for four seconds, hold for four seconds, and that box breathing forces your body to control your emotions and it brings everything down and often you know when you have somebody injured just making them go through that cycle with you. Now you can find the actual injury as opposed to the distracting injury. You can get them to where you can solve the problem better, because the thing that's big and ugly might not be the real underlying cause.

Jodie: 13:33

Absolutely. And see, had you come to the convention, some of those were passed out. Oh good, there we go. And in general, so yeah, no, it's, and this is good. I mean it's the more that we talk about different options, what works for one person, morph it and do it a little bit this way, and absolutely, absolutely.

Murphy: 13:55

So what are we going to look forward to this year? On the patrol, what are you putting together, bringing to the patrol for safety and wellness?

Carl Peecher: 14:02

Yeah, so it's a continuing evolution. I wrote this a couple of years ago. There's a document about continuous mentorship and I've been trying to touch on that slowly over time and nudge towards it, because what I'm really hoping to develop is a self-healing team that can identify, discover and improve as they move along, and that self-healing team requires those who do know and are experienced to edge, guide and enable and help the people learn and be better. It's not good enough to have a couple of strong people on patrol. We need to have every member of the patrol be strong, Everyone be healthy and going. So you know, this season is going to be a continuing on that topic of how do we help mentor the future and how do we guide them along to get them to do better.

Jodie: 14:52

Absolutely.

Carl Peecher: 14:55

Yeah, and you know. So the question I asked of when we do the psychological first aid, the thing I keep suggesting to people is, you know, think about it five things Am I mentally prepared? Am I physically prepared? Do I understand my task, Do I know where I'm going and am I proficient to do the task? And if any of those five questions are not a yes, absolutely raise your hand and ask for help and maybe take somebody else with you. It doesn't mean you're taken off the task and in fact, a good leader, a good patroller, will purposely not take that person off the task simply because they asked a question they didn't know. They would purposely send them on that task and maybe augment it with somebody else who is helpful to make sure they go well, because that is building the future. We have to view it as we need to get people beyond their comfort zone and into the stretch of energy to get better.

Jodie: 16:19

I feel like I should be standing up and cheerleading over here. I'm like, oh, it's too bad this is not video, because I'd just be going yes, yes, yes, yes.

Murphy: 16:30

So, carl, this is going to be a two-part question, right? So where do you see the patrol evolving in? The next? You know? Get to, you know, disseminate this more broadly, right, and get this out to other patrols I would really.

Carl Peecher: 17:02

You know, again, it's not about who, it's about what. Let's get it done. I would love it immensely if more people and I know there are more people that understand these topics very well. When I talk to some of the firefighters on the team, they hear the same thing. Paul Sowers he's been a good mentor for me as I've gone to him and talked to him about some of these problems. So the knowledge is out there. It's just getting people willing to get up and start talking about it. There's another podcast I got put on too, called the Emergency Mind podcast. Emergency Mind put on too, called the Emergency Mind podcast, emergency Mind. It talks about some really deep topics that are really good about understanding how a person addresses conflict and a problem and where they go with it, and it's been. I pulled a lot of details out of that to dovetail something together that is succinct and able to be digested by people quickly.

Jodie: 17:54

Absolutely.

Carl Peecher: 17:55

You know where I see this going is. I just hope more people will see it at other patrols and go with it. I don't personally want to, you know, go revolutionize the world. That's not the goal. What I'm hoping is everybody sees the value in it and moves towards better. You know, hit the, hit the Ted Lasso, I believe, symbol up on the wall and believe that we can do better and try. And that's partly why I made them as video messages and I put it out there and I'm hoping they get shared around and pushed around. Not because I want the credit is because I want the topics out there and I'm hoping somebody gets inspiration from it and realizes they can take this and make something better.

Jodie: 18:36

Well, carl, I can guarantee you we will get that video out there, because not only with being the current but outgoing advisor for this with building of the web, we are going to add that onto that. So we definitely want the link. So that, because this is also about the whole sharing I was going to bring this up earlier. But it is realizing there's 11 divisions in the National Ski Patrol and it is fascinating the more that I get to talk with other divisions and hearing either things that they are doing and it's like wow, but on the same token, things that they're not even aware that other divisions are doing, and it's like at times I feel like we started officially back in 1938, but it almost seems like our communication at times is still back in that era.

Murphy: 19:33

In 1938.

Jodie: 19:34

And we have to rely on a snail mail to get delivered and or print it in the weekly newspaper and then get disseminated. Where we try to do these workshops, we try to get stuff on the internet. But I can guarantee you and for all the listeners we will get all of these up there and on the safety wellness page to be shared, as long as Carl gives us permission, absolutely.

Carl Peecher: 20:00

I'll take them. They're on my teams under safety. Murph knows exactly where they are. He built it for me and I recorded most of the weekends I did. And there were the Thursday night meetings where I would talk for four or five minutes and try to give scenarios or try to talk about a concept, and some of them are pretty heady. So you get pretty esoteric levels. But if you listen into it I think there'll be some value gained.

Jodie: 20:22

Right, but I mean it's just like you guys talked earlier in this about different things that you were doing. But it's interesting because if the more that we can get the divisions talking, you would realize that some have adopted similar and I'm going to use the example is NSAA, so the National Ski Areas Association has in the fall the fall education seminar, which is more for the risk management etc. So, Carl, and anybody that's I think it's October, something that's going to be at Hood River, but that was one thing that they brought up last year was about checklists and commenting on a couple of patrols and I can't remember what division it was at the time that they said that they were. So because they have attorneys there, they have the life you know the insurance and stuff.

Jodie: 21:13

People there and they were like this is golden because it does show, it has the checklist, it shows that they were checking of this and this and this for safety and different things and I just we have to do more communication and sharing across from place to place. Cause Murph, we've talked I mean like talking with Gary Burke and and other people of just hearing of how complicated it was to try to communicate before the Internet.

Carl Peecher: 21:41

Obviously, you just hit on a really interesting point because two years ago on the Hill meeting I gave two big talks to the whole patrol and there was a legal representation there for the hill and we were. He had got up and he gave his speech and he talked about it and it almost sounded like checklists were not a good thing from his point of view. And I dug into it a little bit like, oh wait a minute, a well-executed and followed checklist, is that a value? He said absolutely. So he got miscommunicated because he said checklist can be a legal hazard because that would show that you didn't follow the checklist. And my comeback to it is well, that's not necessarily true.

Carl Peecher: 22:27

If you don't follow a checklist that is defined in what you're supposed to do, sure then that is a personal liability. But that is the whole reason we have and follow procedures and checklists is, if we have a procedure and checklist that we follow, we are one in compliance and one we're legally safe. And at that point it comes to a bigger picture. If a problem occurs now through a safety management system, right, we can look at that error that occurred and say, ah, we need to change the procedure to make it better, to mitigate that problem. But if we just don't make procedures because we're scared that it's going to be a risk that people won't follow them, well then every single event is this new experiment and we're just trying it on for size and that doesn't work right. So you know, and he clarified that no, no, no, well, no, no, well-written and well-executed and followed procedure is amazing, because then they can go and say yes, they check that rope line because it's part of their daily procedure and they do that every day.

Jodie: 23:25

So that rope line, but that's just it. I mean, look at the people that, even in the medical field that work. If they're five days a week or three 12-hour shifts a week, whatever, it doesn't matter. The fire service it's 24-hour shift, et cetera. You haven't had a specific call, you haven't had a specific thing. You can't say that you're going to be able to, just because you know this is your full-time work, you're going to be able to pull that out of your head and by having that checklist of saying, well, I haven't done this particular thing in a while, or I haven't been up for a couple of weeks, or there's so many variances. That's where it gets you back to. Oh, it's a good reminder, just like we have OEC once a year. But wow, when you can have a area and people join in of every month you talk about something as a good review and it's that constant reviewing. That's what gets it more cemented. But I mean medical etc.

Carl Peecher: 24:22

But yeah, definitely and that's currency versus proficiency. You had asked earlier on about if I had seen changes and you just spurred my mind on that. One of the huge changes I'm noticing is the dispatchers down at Mountain Base. When a patroller calls in with a problem, and if something isn't asked for, that is likely clearly that dispatcher down in the base area is thinking through the problem, where they are and what's going on, and we'll ask questions like have you thought about transportation yet?

Carl Peecher: 24:53

And that will often spur the on-scene patroller like oh yeah, we need to actually think about how we're going to get this person off the hill, and that is crew resource management. The person doesn't have to be there on scene to be part of the resources available. The radio is a stretch to stretch our resources out, and in the base we often have doctors, we have amazing technicians, we have people that can help and they can provide assistance verbally to guide the person that's on the scene fighting the problem Right, which you know comes down to communication is key, right? So, just like you were saying, communication is all of it.

Murphy: 25:33

Oh yeah, all right. Well, we're kind of running out of time, we're past our hour again, but let me, we're going to. We're going to finish this with two questions. Right One, if you, if I gave you a magic wand and you could change anything about the patrol, yeah, what would it be Active membership, membership, active mentorship.

Carl Peecher: 25:53

It would be a proactive process by everybody involved to seek opportunities to share your knowledge. So it's not a change of what we do on the hill. I'm not going to say, hey, the way we run sleds down the hill is not ideal. We do it differently than many others. But what I will say is, let's use this opportunity that if I'm going out to go to the boundary line in Northway, I'm going to look in the room and say, do I have any new patrollers standing around here that probably haven't done this yet or haven't experienced it yet? And then I'm going to look at it and say, hey, would you like to come along with me and experience this? And I've done that. And I find often that that is positively received and like, oh yes, thank you, I'd love to go see it. So that active mentorship of getting things you know, because a good patroller is proactive, they seek information and they focus on what's right, not who's right, and so guiding them.

Jodie: 26:52

And and, like you said, the new people are where we can probably hit the ongoing and future. But it's also like you mentioned earlier. It doesn't matter whether you've been on a patrol for 10 years. It doesn't matter the length of time. Like you said before, if you haven't been to this area in a while, let's all review and it's how you're how you're presenting it is is huge on that and I just wow and so, and that's just it.

Carl Peecher: 27:20

so I'll pull into my airline world again. I will have a 65 year old airline captain who has been a captain for 30 years. He knows this jet inside and out and he's going to work with a 23 year old, and that 23-old may be more proficient and current with the current procedures, policies, regulations, or just may see something that that other fella doesn't see. And we have empowered it and this is a, you know, it's been a pretty aggressive empowerment to make sure that 23-year-old can speak up and stop the operation if they see something wrong, to make sure that 23-year-old can speak up and stop the operation if they see something wrong. And so that is where we come from. This is, how do we convince people that it's okay to be the more experienced controller but maybe not be the one who is the profair of knowledge?

Carl Peecher: 28:08

Mentorship goes both ways. It's not just older to younger. Mentorship goes from knowledge to lack of knowledge. It goes across. And so that awareness of, like you know, I haven't done belaying for a while. Huh, so who knows how to belay? And it might be the youngest person who happens to be a rock climber that's really, really vetted in belaying, and I'll come out and I'll show you. You know that knowledge needs to go both ways, and we need to all accept that knowledge can go both ways. Just because I'm older or been on patrol longer or been doing my job longer doesn't mean I have all knowledge and all wisdom.

Murphy: 28:44

That's a great philosophy, absolutely All right, jodi, this is Jodi's question. She loves it.

Jodie: 28:51

I do, but we have one more you put in there. What advice would you give someone considering joining but worried about the time commitment? Oh yeah, it was a good one. I wanted with your, as you said, five years so you can relate. What would you say?

Carl Peecher: 29:09

Oh yeah, and so from actually second year I was already starting to go reach out to the new patrollers.

Carl Peecher: 29:14

I went to a couple of the OEC classes to talk to them about what they're getting into, because that was not conveyed to me when I started up and I'm not to say this is negative, but the level of commitment for the first year, and probably two years, was not really conveyed of how steep the learning curve was going to be, and so it was my belief that we needed to let people know how hard this is going to be and what you're going to learn and your brain is going to grow and you're going to stretch and you'll be pushed to your boundaries continuously. It will get better and you'll get to a more steady slope and an increasement. But yeah, for this year or two it's going to be every day that you're up there. You need to be working hard. You probably are not going to find a time where you're just sitting around waiting, and if you're not into that, you need to change your perspective and maybe this isn't the thing for you, and that's okay, it's not a negative.

Carl Peecher: 30:06

It's just, you'll be aware, because we need people that are involved and eager and proactive, and that proactiveness of learning, proactiveness of doing, looking for the task that's not done that's what it's going to be all about, and so if you're waiting for knowledge to come to you, you've already failed. You need to be seeking it and growing from it.

Jodie: 30:27

Oh, I like that statement right there.

Murphy: 30:29

We're going to have to just put a soundbite to that one. But Jody is glowing right now. You can't see her. But Jodi is glowing right now.

Jodie: 30:35

Oh, you see Well and we usually end with this one question. However, we have been talking about it practically throughout this whole thing, but it was basically, I mean, the NSP creed from 1938, service and safety, and so, granted, from some people we've asked what they've seen over the years. But have you thought about when you first, I guess you know, and the other thing is, a lot of times people, when you're first new, you don't even realize there's this huge umbrella and there's NSB and there's all that. You're just focused on your local patrol. But in your five years have you seen anything that has struck you in either way or better to improve, or any thoughts to that? I mean, we've talked a lot about safety etc.

Carl Peecher: 31:26

But yeah, yeah, with service and safety. Right, with safety comes service and with service becomes an opportunity, and it's an opportunity for people to get out and do something. So our guests that come to the hill want to have an outdoor adventurous experience, to be able to do it, and they may not have the knowledge or skills to know where is dangerous. And so you know our education process on the hill of talking to people and telling them the reason we put that rope out there is not because we want to protect that little rope line or that little run for us, the patrol. No, we're protecting because there's a hazard that you don't see. So with a service and safety is our concept is we are protecting and building a safety bubble around our guests so they can operationalize and go out and do things that are adventurous and are risky, right? So this was a good question.

Carl Peecher: 32:20

I introduced risk management and talked about safety and managing risk. And what do you do when you see a risk? And you identify it, you control it and you try to mitigate it, but we cannot make all risks go away. Risk is inherent to our life. Even if you laid in bed all day long, there is still a risk that a tree could fall on your house. There's always risk involved, but how do you manage it?

Carl Peecher: 32:44

And well-managed risk is experience, and that is trying something and it's an adventure. So, yeah, that's where in the service world we're going out to build that environment where people can experience something beyond what they might normally be able to do, and do it safely. And hopefully we can make an education piece to that as well as we go. And that's one thing that Brent, our patrol director, has really inspired is have conversations with our guests, and I love that. Stop and talk to them and just talk to them about what's going on, because that education of our community, you know. So when I'm riding up a chairlift, I'm often talking to the people on the chairlift about what's going on. Where's going to be good, why is it going to be good, why is that area bad? Oh, and then usually an aha moment occurs in that process.

Jodie: 33:29

Oh boy, I could not have asked you to say that any better. Seriously the whole thing about talking to the public and I mean I feel that that has gotten segued out and it's just sort of this pigeonhole thing and it just needs to be so much more coming back of just having a good conversation, which it brings good wellness to the public. It brings good wellness to the patrollers too.

Carl Peecher: 33:57

Yeah, I've done a couple of years. I go out and stay with a friend in Colorado and we've skied a bunch of high name resorts in Colorado and I've noticed a complete difference in the way they interact and generally what I noticed is the patrollers are not seen on the hill, they're hiding, they're not out engaging. They come to the problem. They'll run a sled like a snow machine to bring the sled to patients and pull the patient away. Ski patrol, where we go out there and we actually see people and are making a visibility of ourselves.

Carl Peecher: 34:37

And I have been dumbfounded by some of the big mountains where I'm looking around and I go the whole day and not see a single red jacket. And that's just not in my paradigm. You know, if you're in a big city and you see a few police officers walking around, that should be a good thing. That's a sign there's people there. If you see medical, you see people. That's a good thing. There's a service industry that is supporting us. When you don't see us out there, I think that diminishes the comfort level of our guests because they don't know is anybody stopping this stuff? That's crazy. And then we don't see the misbehavior If we're only called out when it's reported that there's a jump being a kicker been put in on downhill. Well, okay, then we come out and we break it down. Well, meanwhile that kicker had been there for some length of time and stuff had been going on that was inappropriate absolutely yeah absolutely yeah, it's good, carl.

Murphy: 35:27

Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your story. It's always a joy hearing firsthand what it means to dedicate your time and heart to the ski patrol, the storms, sunrise, sunsets and all the adventures that happen in between. It's a powerful reminder of those people who keep us safe on the mountain.