RePlay Magazine Podcast - Eugene Jarvis

Talk about a fun interview, and what else would you expect from a conversation with one of the true legends of coin-op game design, Eugene Jarvis!  

Eugene has been involved in a seemingly endless stream of video game hits including classics like Defender, Robotron: 2084 and the Cruis’n series and, after co-founding Raw Thrills, Target: Terror, Fast and Furious Arcade, SuperBikes and Godzilla Kaiju Wars. And let’s not forget the pinball games he contributed to like Firepower, Space Shuttle, High Speed and F-14 Tomcat. 

Eugene took RePlay Podcast host Randy Chilton on a fun and enlightening (and often humorous) ride through his coin-op life from the early days at Atari, then on to Williams and Bally-Midway, and now Raw Thrills, which he co-founded in 2001 with Andy Eloff and Deepak Deo. In the interview, he talks about the challenges of the game business, technological advancements, game design philosophy, his thoughts on leadership and even what he enjoys doing besides making games. If you’re into games, even just a little bit, you’ll really love this one!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Replay Magazine's Podcast, where we'll dive into the legends of interesting stories within the world of what we call coin op entertainment. That's games and amusement machines you find in arcades, fun centers, bars, restaurants, and beyond. Replay has covered this business for 50 years and is joining forces with industry veteran and former association president Randy Schild. He is Chief Revenue Officer for National Entertainment Network, owned by Japanese amusement giant Kittleton Jinda. And now here's Randy in this month's Replay Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Hi everybody, welcome to our monthly Replay Podcast. Today I have the pleasure of visiting with Eugene Jarvis, co-founder of Raw Thrills. It's a fascinating story beginning with his days at Atari, Williams, Valley Midway, and the Raw Thrills. He throws in a few colorful stories along the way. If you're in the coin op business, no doubt he's made you a lot of money over the years with his hit games, one right after another. It's our first PG-rated podcast, but I wouldn't have it any other way. Get ready for some laughs as I visit with Eugene. Enjoy the podcast. All right. Hey everyone. Today we're talking to Eugene Jarvis. You played his game, you know his name. He's probably made you a lot of money, president, and uh co-founder of Raw Thrills. So uh hey, we're we're we're here to interview industry legends, and there's uh there's none bigger than you. So thanks for taking the time, Eugene.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Hey, my pleasure, Andy.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Where do we find you today? Are you in Chicago? Is that is that where you're at?

SPEAKER_01 1:29

You know, uh in my office, it's kind of a mess, so I I I changed my background. I guess I don't know where I am really.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Oh, that's perfect. Well, hey, I want to uh cover quite a few things here, but uh you know, I I'm uh we we had Nolan Bushnell on here just a few weeks ago, and he was talking about his whole time at Atari. I think there's some overlap here, is that correct? You you were out there.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Yeah, yeah, I was there um it I think it was maybe about a year, year and a half, um, back in uh like 77, 78, um when uh because Nolan he ended up uh you know he was selling the company to Time Warner at that time.

SPEAKER_03 2:12

Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

And uh so I think he he sold it and then he kind of I don't know after some point they had some disagreement or something and he kind of pieced out for a while. So but there was a there was a window there that uh yeah, I was working, you know, no one would come down. I was working in the pinball programming department and and I was uh you know doing my code and doing the sounds and stuff, and I every now and then he would come down and play the pinball games and you know had some very spaced out remarks, you know. I remember he was like he wanted to get some like psychologist into you know ex, you know, to evaluate the sound effects in the game or something, and I was like, okay. And he kind of, you know, he kind of just he he he he had some just wild ideas, you know, amazingly imaginative guy. And but a lot of you know, a lot of it you just kind of like, you know, he'll forget about this, you know, the next time he comes by. So this is not an action item.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

That's pretty good. So were you there? Was that during the I mean obviously Nolan was there? Was that the the Steve Jobs Wozniak era as well? Or was that did you overlap with them or was that later?

SPEAKER_01 3:32

No, I think I um they were gone. I think I might have gotten Steve Jobs desk because uh it really smelled like really bad food odor, you know.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

So I I I'm that that was the legend there, but uh that's hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

But uh yeah, I saw Steve, actually I saw him earlier like a year or two before then at this uh I was a member of the Homebrew Computer Club.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

That's one of my questions. So please tell us about the homebrew computing club.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Yeah, and so it was uh I don't know, it was like uh you know, 2030 guys that were just totally into building their own microcomputers at that time. And there really wasn't, there wasn't an IBM PC, there wasn't an Apple, there was no real standard. And so there was, you know, a number of little companies making hardware and different guys, you know, it was kind of like almost like a hot rotting scene, you know, where you know you get the new RAM board and you know, some guy coming and yeah, I got like, you know, eight eight kilobytes of RAM, and this is awesome, you know. And and uh and then you you know, like you go, well, what are you gonna do with that? Like, well, you don't understand. I got eight kilobytes of RAM, man. It's like it's cool, you know. And uh, but it was uh a lot of uh pinting work in like video systems and video cards. And this was uh there was this a bus called the I think it's called the the standard of kind of an early standard of hobbyist computers, uh I guess based on uh I forget Altair. It was the Altair eight 8008 or something, or 80, I guess maybe 8080. I forget what the hell it was, but and uh um and then uh so it was the SS100 bus. And so you could get different, you know, boards to put in it, and it was kind of you know early uh rendition of like an IBM PC, which came along later. And uh so it was there's a lot of you know different cool video cards and sound boards and you know boards to run your cassette drive, you know, you could store things on your cassette drive. Or um there was, I guess, paper tape was the big deal, teletypes and paper tape and all that crap. And um, but it was fun, you know, kind of fineering. And when one day um the uh jobs in Washington show up, you know, and they're in their like Birkenstocks and you know, t-shirts, and they were showing off their new board, a single board computer, the Apple One. And uh, you know, it was it was it was pretty impressive, but you still needed, you know, you need to buy a keyboard, you need to buy all these other um things to uh you need to get a TV set, you need to get um some kind of storage, you know, drive. And so it was not really that practical, but it was a great pioneering uh single board computer. Um, I think it was for $666. You know, I guess that that foreshadowed uh maybe where we are today, but uh but it was uh you know pretty cool. But we were like, yeah, you know, it's okay, you know, that it's it doesn't have, you know, doesn't have 16 kilobytes of RAM, you know, it doesn't, you know, like this is kind of stupid. And um, so you know, there was all you know controversies about it, but uh that was their their their first product, which you know was was a semi-success, but then uh obviously they went on to create a true consumer PC, which was the Apple II.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

And so that that all came out of this home brew club that you started talking about.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

Yeah, that certainly the Apple I and then you know after you know a few months, they they kind of I think they got some funding from venture capitalist guys and uh went out and made a real computer, um, the Apple II. So um, but you know, if you if you I wish I had bought at Apple One, I think it's now worth like you know half a million dollars or something for that board.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

Yeah, that's uh probably about like what uh kind of like on one of your original Defender units, probably pretty darn valuable as well. That was your uh that was your claim to fame. That was your that was when you that was your big one, right? Back at the day.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

That was the biggest game. Uh I did my first and biggest game I've been working for the last uh you know like 45 years trying to trying to make a better game. I'm still working on it. But you know, you know, I think yeah, a nice defender is it's probably worth you know three or four grand or something, you know.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Yeah, do you have one in your house? I always want to know that. Do you have a defender?

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Yeah, all right. Of course, yeah. I got one. Uh um I play it now. I mean, that game is uh, you know, my reflexes are, you know, my scores are falling. No longer high score. But it's uh you know, it's a real challenge. I love to play it now and then. Uh I'm really more addicted to my game Robotron, which um yeah, I've I I enjoy kicking in the coin door on that one.

SPEAKER_02 8:51

Great games, I remember them well. We bought lots of them. So uh hey, um we need a little history lesson here. So you were at Atari, and then there was the Midway, and then there was the Bally Midway, and then you went into Raw Thrills. Walk us through that chronology and how that happened. Because I I understand the leap into Raw Thrills was not as obvious as it looks to be in hindsight.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Yeah, um, well, the you know, just to get historically um, so I worked at uh Atari for a couple of years and then went back to um, and that was in the pinball thing. Unfortunately, Atari pinball games were not very reliable. Um, you know, it's kind of the classic case of you know, the new tech guy, we're gonna redefine the entire industry, you know, everything they do in Chicago is complete bullshit. And you know, we don't need any of that crap. And you know, of course, their cake games, they put the board in the bottom of the game and all the screws fell out on it and sorted it out and the and uh the the displays overheated and you know, just it was uh some terrible piece of hardware. Um sometimes it would literally catch on fire. And uh it was they had this display and they put the display rather than like in the back box, they had it down in the uh lower archery, which is right next to the player. The I the I guess the thought was it's you're watching the play field and then you just glance over to your score, you know. It's maybe more convenient than looking at a back box, you know. And uh, but they they put the display and it was um these high voltage uh um plasma displays, which were um kind of a thing in those days. I mean, they looked beautiful, but they had no like cooling vents or anything. So the thing would just fry itself slowly.

SPEAKER_03 10:51

I know.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Um so anyway, um I was working with this guy named Steve Ritchie, who was famous. Who was it was in the proto, he was the head of the proto shop, and and he uh um he wanted to be a designer, and so he created this, you know, he would drop these play fields in his you know at night and on weekends and stuff. And uh um, so I I got to work on his first game, uh Airborne Avenger. And it was probably the first hit game for Atari.

SPEAKER_02 11:22

Wasn't that a wide body?

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Yeah, they were all white body.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

Um I remember that.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

But I I you know I did five or six games, um, but just due to the you know bad design and so forth, um they made a lot of money when they worked, you know, but they couldn't work that that long. I mean, you can it's hard to find any of them today, you know, surviving. And so Steve pieced out to Chicago and uh at he went to work at Williams, um uh recruited by this guy named Mike Stroll, who was uh kind of a charismatic leader in that era um at Williams. And uh and so uh he invited me to come out to Chicago and and check it out, you know, in like March of that year. And I was I was like, you know, it was all you know dusty, dirty industrial city, you know.

SPEAKER_02 12:17

What what year is this we're talking about?

SPEAKER_01 12:19

This is 79.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

Oh 79, okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Yeah, so it was like, you know, it was it was the rustable before it rusted and coated in grease. And I remember I remember the factory was like uh still had the paint job from World War II, you know, like this this government green, kind of light green. And uh I was just you know, the whole city was you know just piled up snow and everything. And I was I'm in California and go, I'm never gonna come here ever. And then somehow one year later, I I just said hell with it. And uh I just love too pinball too much. So I wanted to work with Steve and make some pens.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

And that was at uh Williams. And uh how did we get from uh you were there for like 20 years or something, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:09

Quite a while, on and off. So um so we worked on uh I guess the first multi-ball electronic pin uh firepower. That was it was a major, major success.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

And what a great game, what a great game that was.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

And it's it's it's it's kind of cool because to you know, today almost every every game is a multi-ball, you know. It's it's it's such a fun uh mode.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

Um the one the one I remember is F-14 Tom Cott. That was a personal favorite of mine. That was going all over the place.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

Yeah, that was uh that was my last gasp in pinball. Uh ice. Um so let me get I'll get get to that. So um after um after um firepower, uh it's like 1979, a little late. You know, it's amazing how many things I did in like a year or something. Now I can't even like take a shit in a year, you know.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

I mean that's a different podcast.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

But uh uh got into that's just when like the video hit 78, and uh Space Immers was just huge. And uh I guess in uh you know Astrowards came, maybe 79. And so it's just like, man, we gotta do a video game, you know. And so I really wanted and probably maybe it's get out of the under the thumb of Steve Ritchie, who I love working with him, but he was he had uh didn't really you only lasted like one game under him, you know, as a programmer. You kind of he kind of bit off and chewed programmers up for lunch, you know. And uh but great guy though. And so I saw my chance to um go and uh join uh you know start a video team. And so that was William's first role video game, other than like Pong clones. And uh and so we had a great that was just an incredible project. Uh somehow it was just the blind leading the blind. None of us knew anything about video hardware or anything, and somehow we ended up uh making Defender. And uh that was you know just beginners luck or something. But um anyway, that was huge. And then uh then I met uh a kid named Larry DeMar, who was uh I guess helped me out in Defender bit, and uh and we decided uh I don't know, I was kind of disappointed like my bonus was like zero. And so we quit and and started this company called VidKids, which went on to do Robotron and a few other games. Uh and then uh Stargate, which is a sequel to the Defender, and then then uh kind of the video crash hit, and you know, we just like it was like, okay, this shit is over, you know. You know, it's like it was like disco or the the pet rock, you know, it was just it was over, man. And uh so uh most like everybody either got laid off or quit or and uh we all kind of went our separate ways for a while. And uh I ended up going out to uh get my MBA out at Stanford on the West Coast and you know get some more of that California weather. Yeah, I saw that. Uh but I uh you know, but I just couldn't shake that video bug, you know, and I was always thinking about oh, we can do a new game and there's all this cool new technology and and uh you know to you know get make create a new hardware system that could, you know, do zillions of colors and you know, write 10 screens in a 60th of a second and all these crazy things. So also we were talking about HD, which we did this game NARC, which is an HD game, um, a little early, too early for its time, uh, but it did quite well. It's just a very expensive game. And um, and we you know did some innovation in digital graphics and digitizing actors and all that stuff, which um kind of laid the groundwork for some of the later uh Williams hits like uh um Smash TV and uh Mortal Kombat, NBA Jam, all that stuff. Um so it was uh a great project. And um then at about that time, so this at this point Williams had bought Bally. Okay Bally kind of Bally video kind of you know they were at amazing peak when they were building, you know, 1200 Pac-Mans a day and uh or 1200 uh Ms. Pac-Mans or whatever. And uh they had you know, things are just much tougher. And so they um I think just decided they want to concentrate on a casino, and and so we bought their pinball and video divisions of Midway and Valley, and so it became uh Williams Valley Midway for for a moment. And then then uh I remember uh Neil DeCastro, who was running uh Williams Valley Midway at the time, was like, well, you know what, we gotta we we have to use the Midway name. We paid five million dollars for this this piece of shit company, so we're we're gonna use their name. You know, it's like and so so it's like it was it was kind of we felt so defeated because like we were Williams and we had destroyed Ball, you know, and now we had to take their name. And and then to make it worse, they they appointed the uh the managers from Midway to be our supervisors. It's like so it was a uh it was uh it was kind of a take under rather than a takeover. And uh so anyway, so um I was uh you know, I played there with this game called race driving and hard driving. Remember those? Um driving games, right that Atari had made really, really amazing pioneering games. And um I was like, man, this is this is like the future, you know, we're gonna be 3D, 3D texture mapping, all this stuff. So I decided to resign from uh Midway and uh actually took some of the hardware guys and so we made a deal as a contractor kind of thing that we would develop this new uh 3D hardware system that eventually became uh cruising USA and Cruising World and all those those games of the 90s, and uh so we um it was pretty amazing. We had six guys and basically two hardware guys, two programmers, and two artists. And we developed um, it took us about four years to get this thing done. Three, three or three or four years. We developed basically the equivalent of like a Sony PlayStation, actually more powerful than that, and uh um and did the game cruising the USA. And uh, but unfortunately we ran out of money, and so we we ended up um uh Neil made a deal for us to come back and finish our game at Midway, and so then we were able to finish, so we came back to Williams again or midway, whatever the hell it was. And so that was the whole, you know, cruising the USA, uh cruising world, cruising exotica, like the trilogy of of driving games, um which was very you know super satisfying project because uh I guess all all put together, I think they did probably sold more games than Defender.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

I bet. And and you you you can find those machines on the street today.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Yeah, it's uh the board was it was just a bulletproof um single board system. And I remember at the time um, you know, we were using DSPs and it was an early, you know, our own custom GPU, and um it really was a very cost-effective design um and fairly high performance. And um Sega, I remember Sega um Daytona, which was competing as you open up their harder, which is kind of I guess it was like in the base of the game or something, and it was like seven boards there that were like, you know, two feet by two feet. It was like we're just like, oh my god, like how do they ever get this thing working once, you know? So, yeah, that cruising hardware system was just bulletproof. And uh just crazy. Uh it's been 30 over 30 years, and some of them are still running out there and random, you know, pizza joints and food courts and whatever. But that was that was a fun, fun project. And we kind of made the segue to more casual um rather than the hardcore games I had been working on. It was kind of more casual everything games for for kids and girls and men and women, and you know, even little babies could play it. And um just really, you know, on their mother's lap, little kid just sit there and tear the wheel. So it was it was really a fun project that kind of really opened up the driving game um genre to a game that you know I always thought like, hey, why don't why don't they make a driving game where when you turn right, you actually turn right rather than like skidding into a rock or something? So we gave it a lot of traction and and you actually turned right and when you turned right rather than you know falling off a cliff.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

So okay, so that was about what what year cruising come out? That was 94. 94. Shortly thereafter, uh you started Raw Thrills. How did we get there?

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Um, so that you know, unfortunately, uh Midway hit some really tough times. Right. I remember they hired that there's some questionable hires they made. Um like their new engineering manager guy. Um it was almost like uh it's like they they had you'd like their most um bitter competitor had like done their hiring for them.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

Oh no.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

So they had like the worst possible people you could ever imagine being hired for you know key positions in the company. It was just like, oh my god, you know, this was like you know, like sabotage, you know, from in you know, by by hiring. And uh it was uh it was a complete disaster. And uh and the market was they they you know that it was a an arcade company, and so they had some great success um you know um moving the arcade IP um into the home with uh you know Mortal Kombat and NBA Jam and Um Terminator 2 and obviously the Cruising series was uh launch titles on uh Nintendo and you know just had amazing success there. But then you know the arcade business kind of was falling apart. And um it was really hard coming up with any new hits in that era. I think that you know the market was just getting saturated, and I think arcade, you know, there's just more comp competition with consoles and and the hardcore players that were playing the fighting games and the sports games went over to the um you know the PlayStations and the Xboxes and some of the Sega platforms. And so it was very hard time. I you must remember this, uh Randy.

SPEAKER_02 25:20

You were well maybe there was an arcade on every corner. We just you'd just go grab a spot and call it an arcade. Yeah, there was way too many of them.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Yeah, and it was so you know, we had a great boom. I mean, it was kind of like a second boom there in the 90s, right? You know, and uh, but then uh, you know, again, kind of a saturated market and really big competition, like you know, why play Mortal Kombat for you know ten dollars an hour when you could just you know buy the cartridge for you know 20 bucks and you know and that's it, you know, and and I think and it seems at that point in time the experience was pretty similar.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

Exactly. It was but it was no longer a downgraded experience, it was about the same experience.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

Exactly. And I think also you had the you know the um birth of online internet linking, um, you know, and then the like the first person shooter genre was huge, the you know, massive multiplayer RPGs, online RPGs. There was just all these great titles and you know, social games. I'm eventually like Farville and you know, all these crazy uh um titles started uh you know just competing for for players with the arcade. And and so really the arcade um you know was was dying in many in many ways. And uh so is a tough time, you know. When the problem is when places start closing, then there's more games coming into the market, you know, and if you're trying to make or sell games and you're competing with all this new use equipment that's uh you know very economical, I mean it be gets very hard. Uh and that and locations are decreasing, it's it's like an inverse, you know, it's a vicious cycle. So midway ended up you know going bankrupt eventually. And uh so the arcade division, I think, was shut down in uh like 2000.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

So the biggest manufacturing industry uh goes under and we're and and there's arcades are declining, and you say, Hey guys, I got an idea. Actually, you know, let's manufacture video games.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

That was uh well, yeah, and it's funny. So a few of us, you know, survivors from Midway. Um, I think you know, and when the industry goes through these cataclysmic uh contortions of these great crashes, um, most people are just like they they go, I'm done with games, you know, and they get a you know a normal job somewhere, you know, and and we'd always we'd always like, oh man, that poor guy, you know, he got a real job, you know. It's like like we're so lucky to be in games, man. You know, like but you know, we were all unemployed at that point. So, you know, we faced the specter of having to get a real job, you know. Oh no, we couldn't do it, we couldn't do it. So we decided to start uh Roth Rills. I don't know, maybe a year or something, but um we uh the initial idea was we were actually gonna make some kind of a a consumer game, you know, because the arcade was dead and we wanted to make uh had had a vision that was um kind of an open world kind of Grand Theft Auto kind of thing, you know. And uh so that was the original vision and we kind of messed around for I don't know, maybe a year or two, and um we uh um we we did get a contract with um uh IGT to do a couple of uh do some a couple of poker games, you know, and uh some casino stuff. And so we you know, we're able to make a little bit of money trying to fund our other project. But it's amazing when you start running out of money, your mind becomes very focused. And instead of this kind of do everything, it be everything game, it was kind of like got really focused. Like, okay, what do we, you know, we don't have a lot of money left. What do we know how to do? And and like, well, the only thing we know how to do is arcade games, and we really don't know anything about home games or console games or PC games. So we said, okay, we'll let's do a uh you know, a arcade game, and and we're thinking, well, you know, midway when they shut down arcade, I think they did 90 million dollars that year in arcade games, and they shut it down because it wasn't good enough. And we were like, well, you know, if we could do like three million, you know, we only had like you know, five guys to pay, so maybe you know, one million, you know, was just something, you know, there must be something left out there, you know. And uh, and I guess at the time we noticed that Batson and uh Mark Strews, which who was the sales manager from Midway, um, were reissuing um some of the old cruising games. And and they were selling, I don't know, they sold maybe you know four or five thousand of those. Um and we got wow, if they're still selling that crap, then maybe maybe we can make a new game. And so that kind of gave us a little bit of hope that there was a market out there. And so um we we got decided to get a little more focused, and and so we this was a kind of an odd strategy. I don't it doesn't make much sense right now, but we decided to do a very quick um gun game to to uh we could figure out we could finish that and before our money ran out in like a year, and then um we could uh use that money to finish the driving game. You know, it's like it's almost like John DeLorean, I remember when he was like selling cocaine to try to bail out his car company or something. We didn't do that. Yeah, at least we weren't getting it, it wasn't it wasn't that bad. But um so we um and this was the whole 9-11 thing. This was uh had hit, I guess that was 2000, 2001 or something, right? It was 9-11. All the hysteria. I remember the um, you know, everybody's every like there was some mayor in like downstate Illinois, like, I need you know federal security, you know, like there could be terrorists in my town here, you know, like and uh you know, just like people were getting like um kind of crazy because it was just such such a shocking and uh terrifying thing. So we decided kind of to do this. I don't know, in hindsight was maybe not the most sensitive thing, but we decided to have a you know kind of a Rambo-esque um kind of game where you know America fights back and um you know re and uh you know defeats the terrorists, you know, and that but and they're it's like kind of going with everybody's nightmare scenario where the terrorists are attacking, you know, the airports and they're attacking the Golden Gate Bridge and they're attacking, you know, the Statue of Liberty and hijacking more planes, and so um that was the the uh birth of Target Terror, and uh which was very kind of inspired by the Area 51 games from the 90s that Atari had Area 51 and Max Force, where again it used that digitization process. So it was really cool where um you know you could really I thought it was really fun working with human actors, which you know we hadn't done since um the Narc days. And uh it was really cool to you get all the expression, you know, like have them die, you know, and you know, grab their nuts and die or something. And and so it was like very, you know, just like so much emotion and everything, where a lot of the at that era the 3D animation was very kind of stiff and robotic, you know. And and here we could have and they can be wearing a coat that's flying and you know, and have it really interesting clothes on that show a lot of texture and wrinkles and stuff. And and so it just it was a very realistic looking um medium, you know, just going with the and this was you know, we're now able to use higher resolution cameras and do some cool green screen technology, and um and so that you know that kind of was the cool thing about target here. And we could have like, you know, seven, like a person could have like eight different death scenes, you know, like you fall over this way, you fall over that way, depending on where you got hit by the bullet or you know, whatever. So it's very all kinds of variety and fun, and um, lots of explosions and body parts and all those good things. And maybe not body parts, maybe that was maybe that was an arc anyway.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

But I remember those days.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

But so that was a fun game, and so we we ripped that out in like six months, and uh um we're able to uh get some get some money to finish up uh the driving game, which at that point we had focused in on doing a street racing game and uh kind of inspired by the Fast and Furious um movies. I used to say there had only been one movie at that point, and um and we tried to get the license, but um I think when they heard the name of our company, like Raw Thrills, they were like, uh yeah, you know, we don't do porn, you know. So it's like so we we called it uh hot cars street racing was the was the working title. And it was kind of like you know, hot wheels, but you know, hot cars and you know, whatever. Anyway, um, and so we'd work in the game and it was getting pretty fun, and people would um you know come by and play it, and and you know, I'd explain it to them and they go, Oh, yeah, it's like Fest Fearish, you know, and everybody kept going. It's like no, it's hot car street racing, you know, it's like and so we we uh just had a stroke of luck and uh a friend, a good friend of mine, uh Joe Kamenko, who uh um was working at IGT at the time in the gaming business and doing some really great work there. And uh he um through his contacts with licensing, he said, Look, I could get you a license for Fast and Furious. And I were like, what? And I guess somehow, I guess Sega and Namco had somehow passed on it. And I I guess the there was like this first the first movie came out and there was quite a long lag time, and I think maybe they just thought it was dead or something. But somehow we were able to uh everybody had passed on it, and we were able to Joe was able to convince them that Roth Rills was not a porno company, and so we were able to get the Fast and Furious license, and so and so that then that was the Fast and Furious and what ver what version of Fast and Furious are we on?

SPEAKER_02 36:38

I can't even keep track.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

Um we're on uh like three or four, you know, of us, but I think the the movie it's like 10 or 11, I think. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:48

On a franchise.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

Yeah, it's been uh pretty amazing, and uh so we were so luckily with that, we had two pretty good games, and that uh paid off all our debts, and we were able to uh to continue on, you know.

SPEAKER_02 37:05

And uh well, let's give a shout out to your partners. You co-founded Rough Thrills with uh Andy and Deepak, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:12

Yeah. They're both still with you, and yeah, yeah, they um actually Deep Pak retired a while back.

SPEAKER_02 37:20

Oh, did he?

SPEAKER_01 37:21

Yeah, he he um he was the one the only smart guy in the company.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

But no, hey, that's it, a little close to home now. Come on.

SPEAKER_01 37:30

But um uh yeah, those guys, you know, it's funny, they were we were you know thinking about starting, I think that it was their idea to start a company, actually. And I was and I was like, this is ridiculous. Like this is I I'm not gonna make this mistake again. I'm done with this fucking industry, you know, like this is you know, I've had enough, you know, and somehow they conned me into starting this company, and I remember um like a month into it, I I woke up in the middle of the night. I don't know, you ever get those like mid middle of the night, like you woke up and like, what the fuck am I doing?

SPEAKER_02 38:06

And that hadn't happened to me since Monday.

SPEAKER_01 38:13

And and so that was uh, you know, I was just like, oh my god, you know, but it was like too late. I think we'd already started the company and you know, and we were like working in my basement at the time and you know, looking for an office. And I was just like, oh God, you know, like but you know, it's like it's so it's it's almost like you know, you know, a marriage, you know, when you're reengaged and they have all these weddings and all this crap, and it's like the whole momentum of the thing, you know, like you're just you're locked, you're locked in even though you're not, you know, like there's just so many ties, and you know, your mom and this, that, and the other, and you're just like, okay, this this is on rails here, you know. And so I felt like you know, same kind of thing, uh, you know, as uh the bachelor getting cold feet, you know. But it was like, you know what, we're doing this. It was no, and I've still I haven't gotten off that train yet.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

So it's it's been please don't. Please don't.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:16

Let's see. What else do I want to bring up here? You know, I found it interesting, uh, just doing a little research. You get very high praise for your management style, and you're an engineer, you're a software designer. People love working for you. The quote I really love is one of the most genuinely happy, generous people I have ever met. What's your secret?

SPEAKER_01 39:38

Um, you know, I don't know. Sometimes I I uh I think you really have to have uh you have to have a Jekyll hide to really be effective, you know. You can't, you know, you can't be happy all the time, you know. I think if you if I think that probably these days, maybe I'm leaning, you know, it's it's a good conflict avoidance thing. It's like everything's great, it's fine, you know, and um, but uh you do have to, you know, you really have to tell, you know, you have to, it's like when you love somebody, you have to tell them when they're wrong, you know, like love is not just everything's beautiful and we're all, you know, we're all, you know, we have to, if we're on the road to hell, you have to really speak up, you know, and and so that and that's a hard thing, you know. I think a lot of people have problems with that, you know, conflict avoidance. And but I if you have true love for people, you have to, you know, if things need to be fixed, you need to let them know. But yeah, I just I love working with um both the the veteran guys, you know, the we have guys actually from uh we still have a few guys from cruise in the USA working with us, and and uh which is kind of cool. And uh we have um uh you know, and we have we have some you know young guys and you know new grads and old guys, and you know, it's a good mix. I think you need that mix of you know, the older you get, you know, everything's everything will everything that fails, and then when you're young, everything's just everything can be done, you know. And so you need a little bit, you know, of uh the combination of the two, you know. You can't have boundless optimism, you have to have some reality, but you you can't have excess reality to you know just not want to try anything new. So, you know, it's just it's it's a tough, it's uh it's a tough business, but it's a fun business, you know. It's and I think what's fun is you're always working on something new because your games always die, you know, and you know, they have a certain lifetime, and you you like you almost have to reinvent the company every few years, you know, and and so that makes it very interesting, but also it makes it uh uh probably you know fairly stressful sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

And yeah, you're in a you're you're in a you're in a you have to take high risks every day.

SPEAKER_01 41:57

Yeah, yeah. And you're sure, you know, you have to you have to make the risk, but you know, if you don't take the risk, you don't you don't get the reward. So it's somehow we've survived, you know. Um and uh you know it's been uh you know it's it's but it that's what shocked me is uh this company has been going for 25 years. And you know, from that whole cataclysm of the early 2000s, we as an industry kind of re-re went back to our roots, really, and in family entertainment, kids, being very kid-centric, and you know, I guess kids of all ages. It seems like nobody wants to grow up, which is great for us.

SPEAKER_02 42:41

People love to people's socialization is uh is is genetic. You people want to get out, yeah. And look at the bowling center industry, they're they've reinvented themselves, and you can't get a late on Friday night. I mean, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 42:54

Yeah, no, it's it's great, you know, and I think part of it's just the phone, you want to get away, you know, people want to get away from their phones and just lose themselves somewhere, you know, other than the scroll, you know, the death scroll. And uh um, I think that's uh you know, and it is kind of interesting where the phone is, you know, we spend so much time looking at this little thing, and so we get into an arcade and we see all these gigantic screens and games and stuff, and it's kind of magical for somebody who's been looking at a five-inch screen for all day long. And I was like, oh my god, look at that. And uh so um, yeah, we just try to trying to trying to bring magic and excitement to people, and I mean it's it's uh the best job in the world if you can hang hang in there, you know.

SPEAKER_02 43:43

So uh a segue into uh your comment about the games are gigantic. Let's talk about stranger things for a minute. Okay, which is bigger than my first house. How big can these things get? I mean, there's like four locations in America. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

I know that well, you know, we're we're uh that that one is a bit extreme. We wanted to, I mean, a lot of these arcades, um, they love the socialization, you know, and they want to have a game where four people, three or four people can get together and have have a blast, you know, and so it's kind of running off of that, and we and we, you know, we decided just for a change of pace and kind of fun thing is is to have the balls, throwing the balls rather than rather than you know, shooting, you know, uh electronic uh controller, you know. And um, and I think people uh you know really love it, you know, they love the you know, it's it's kind of that physical interaction. That's and that's the other thing of the arcade, is it's it's the interface of physical and and and video, you know, and so you get, you know, like people love that. They want to they want to have some physical element, you know. Again, they're they're sitting at touch screens and keyboards all day long. And so I think that's it's kind of fun. So you can get out there, actually, maybe get a little exercise. I mean, god god forbid it, you know, and uh have some fun with that with uh with a crazy game like Stranger Thinks. And so it is it is a uh yeah, there's nothing nothing guaranteed in this world, you know. And that's people I ate. It's funny, people ask me like what what did I learn from, you know, I guess I've been in the business uh 40 um 40 odd, uh almost 50 years. I guess like 49 years I've been in this business, 49 and a half years. And and like, what the hell did you learn? You know, you know, what's the what's your wisdom out of this thing? And I and I I finally realize you know, I just the only thing I can say is the one thing I learned is I don't know shit. You know, it's like because it's always you know, there'll be some hot new game, and I'll hear about it like that's stupid, you know, and then you go over there and like it's the hottest thing ever, you know, and um nobody has all the answers, you know. It's it's uh you know, the that's the you know the world is we all have our different perspectives and different ideas and different um places we're coming from. And so that's kind of the beauty of the arcade is you're getting the best of the best, you know. And all the, you know, probably for every game on an arcade, there's you know, 10 that that never get went anywhere, maybe more, you know. And so you're not seeing all the crap games that fail, you know. You're seeing you're seeing just the best, you know, and and I think that's why that makes the experience so much, so much, so enjoyable.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

I think you just bring up a really good point, you know, being a lifelong operator and you see the high cost of these games, you know, we forget that I don't only have to pay for that game, I gotta help you pay off the nine failures that preceded it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:44

So yeah, I can't really charge you for that. So I know.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

Well, it's in there, it's in there, so it's in there somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 46:53

Right. So you bet you have to make your make the hay you gotta make your hay on the good game, you know. It's like yeah, you know, but uh yeah, that's that's a uh unfortunately uh a uh an issue in the industry.

SPEAKER_02 47:06

Yeah, that's really good insight. I don't didn't really think about uh uh how many didn't work. So yeah, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

Yeah, we don't we don't think too much about that either. We don't dwell on that. It's like moving on. I bet Andy does moving on, you know, you gotta move right along. Don't talk, they don't exist, like a bomb game no longer exists, you know. It's like and anything, anybody associated with it is somehow tainted.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

I say the same thing about my first marriage. Yeah, the uh well, let's see here. Uh you um we're we're we're wrapping up here, but I got a couple things I want to talk about. Okay. See uh uh you're a highly decorated guy in the industry. Uh uh, how do you how do you like the limelight? You were inducted into the uh you were the New York Operators Hall of Fame in 2009. You're in the the the in the uh industry hall of fame and just a couple years ago.

SPEAKER_01 48:12

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 48:13

Is that uh how do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_01 48:16

I'm I'm still waiting for my uh you know free dinner or something, you know?

SPEAKER_02 48:23

Pete didn't buy you a free drink.

SPEAKER_01 48:29

No, he says he sends me the bill. But uh the uh um and I'm glad I'm glad to to have a good party, you know, and celebrate things, you know. Yeah, I think you know, that's funny, it's we're we're it's the most important thing to us, but um out in the world, you know, I don't really have to worry about people recognize me or anything. You know, every now and then, like if I'm out in uh arcade show or something, um, it's fun to meet people. Um so I go to the F this big show up in Milwaukee, the um Midwest, Midwest gaming classic, um in the spring. I think it was just a few weeks ago. And I was go up there and give talks. And you meet a lot of young players and crazy, you know, the crazy, the game, crazy people, you know, the collectors and the you know, a lot of crazy little kids.

SPEAKER_02 49:18

And we we just call them customers.

SPEAKER_01 49:20

Exactly, exactly. You know, we're always like, you know, you actually think this is, you know, we're always like we're thinking like, uh, these games. I mean, back in the 80s, if the game was six months old, you just burned it, right? I mean, you know, because you got a new one that's gonna make 10 times the money now, you know. So it was just fire firewood. We used to just call firewood, but um, you know, these these people that actually collect all these and some of the most horrible failure games, actually, they're worth the money now because they're so rare, you know. So I I wish I kept some of these, some of these bombs, you know, it's like well, they were you know, related to that, there were so many Pac-Man and Ms.

SPEAKER_02 49:59

Pac-Man out there. I mean, at the end of the run, which was what 1990 or so, you know, we're we're scrapping those things. How I wish I had those today. Oh my goodness gracious, talk about machines that are worth a lot of money.

SPEAKER_01 50:13

Yeah, this uh, but you know, just the storage costs and the you know, and the if you try to, you know, I I have a bunch of old games downstairs, and you know, every time you turn one on, you know, after uh six months, it's like, whoops, this one, you know, uh, what happened to the IO? You know, like it's always something like cont you gotta like, you know, clean out the contacts, and you know, they're there they are a pain in the ass to keep going. You know, you get you get kind of the you get to see with the job of the operator, you know, like like why did we put this stupid connector in this thing? Like, you know, didn't we should have put all this stuff on one board so we didn't have you know connector problems? And I mean it's it's terrible when you're the maintenance man of your own designs, you know.

SPEAKER_02 50:57

Who do you complain to?

SPEAKER_01 50:58

Right, exactly. Just realized, like, you know, yeah, we save five bucks by doing that. Like, yeah, and you made the game fail, you know, it's like but we you know, we do we do try, we try to make uh these days. I think it's super important to make a reliable product, you know, with the the cost of labor and um you know, just the service call, you know, just the downtime, you know, and and so many arcades and street locations, they don't have a tech on duty, you know. So it's that's uh something I think the industry needs to work on is is uptime and reliability. And uh I know we try really hard to do that.

SPEAKER_02 51:36

Yeah, I I know you do. I've heard that uh real priority for you, reliability. You're thinking about that street operator. So on behalf of all street operators, thank you for that. Because your machines do work more often than not. Hey, uh, what do you do when when you what do you do when you're not working? What kind of hobbies?

SPEAKER_01 51:55

Tell me about your personal life and yeah, well, I like to the one thing I don't want to do is sit by a computer. Yeah, I bet and uh try to avoid my cell phone as much as I can. And I I love just trying to get outside and uh I love uh bike riding. Um, I love uh like hiking in the woods, um canoeing. It's like in the summer season in Chicago area, there's so many, you know, there's a Chicago River, which you know, they don't have too many floating bodies anymore. It's it's pretty good. And uh um like Michigan is beautiful, you know, although you gotta watch out in a canoe because the waves can really knock you out if you if you aren't careful, man, you're you're gonna be swimming in pretty cold water. Um, but I love you know, just kind of getting outside and even you know, I'm I'm like out in the yard, you know, trying to whack back the uh whatever plague is is attacking my uh not so well maintained uh situation. And there's always uh some new uh invasive species or something that like I know this spring for some reason, like I got all these cattails growing in my backyard. Like, you know, there were like a couple of years, there was like one or two, like, wow, that's really quaint. There's a cattail, and now there are like 30 of them like, oh my god, it's like it's like a plague of cattails, and you know, it's always uh trying to keep my wife uh you know, too uh you know, pacified. It's like the jungle to pacify the jungle. And uh my son Nate is uh faithful in a helper and lawnmower and brush whacker. That's kind of fun too. I mean, when you're sitting in office all day going in the yard and whacking some trees down, and I kind of I kind of been to chainsaws a little bit, you know. There's something uh you know, dropping a you know, a 30-foot tree, you just gotta get out of the way, you know.

SPEAKER_02 54:01

That's pretty funny.

SPEAKER_01 54:02

But uh so it's uh yeah, I love just getting outside. Any kind of thing outside is is what I what I try to do because I I sit at a desk all night all day long.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

Well, so what's the what's the raw thrill future look like five, 10 years from now?

SPEAKER_01 54:16

You know, that's that's a yeah, I you know, I'm uh you know, been in it a long time. Um, you know, so I guess you know, I gotta actually start thinking about you know getting uh replacing myself at some point, you know, and that's that's you know, it's a scary thought, uh, you know, scary and maybe good at the same time, but that's you know, I think it's really tough in uh this industry is so specialized, and a lot of the companies, you know, they're smaller companies, they're they're run by you know a family or you know, a couple of guys or very you know charismatic guy like Jersey Jack or something, and um obviously Nolan Bushnell was uh you know, at one time Atari was a small coin off company. Um and uh so it's kind of it's interesting, it's very kind of artisanal. I I kind of see it's like it's like a big restaurant, you know. You know, instead of making food, you're you know, you're making games and and so you have to play the games, you know, see how the the broth tastes and you know, add a little salt here, you know, you know, some MSG, don't tell anybody, and um so uh yeah, it's it's a very personal endeavor, and uh um but you yeah, obviously we all face you know mortality and so it's it's kind of a struggle right now for me. But um, you know, I I realize intellectually we need to you know start thinking about uh bringing on something. And I know Gary Stern has brought on uh Seth and you know had great success there. And so, you know, it obviously can't be done. You just have to spend the time and uh uh find the right people. But sometimes I you just feel you're on this treadmill and you you're just barely you know keeping the ship afloat, you know, and then you have to find a new captain at the same time. It's it's a tough uh it's a tough thing, but uh you know, it's something I gotta face up to, you know, at some point.

SPEAKER_02 56:17

Well, biologically, you're a you're a young man and a lot of energy, so you've got some time to figure all that all that out. I I hope so. I hope so. So one of I forgot to ask that you want to tell your faithful replay readers, which will probably be four or five hundred people.

SPEAKER_01 56:36

The best uh attended podcast I've ever done.

SPEAKER_02 56:40

It could be. It could be. You know, people these podcasters measure their success. Yeah, I got I interviewed Nolan Bush Melton. You look on YouTube and it has like 50,000 views or something. I'm going, I said, Nolan, you know there'll be like three or four hundred people see this, so don't get nervous.

SPEAKER_01 56:56

Yeah, you always you always worry about you know the career-ending uh tweet or something. You know, you say the wrong thing, you know, like it and it seems like uh maybe people have a little more understanding these days. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 57:09

But any closing thoughts, comments, uh yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 57:15

I I would say uh, you know, just from one uh coin op arcade lifer to another, you know, I I think uh you know we do have the the best job in the universe. And and sometimes, you know, I it is a hell of a lot of work trying to, you know, keep uh keep on that uh surfboard and you know and and try to get the waves and not get uh you know, watch out for the sharks, you know.

SPEAKER_03 57:45

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 57:45

And so you you get you know you can get distracted by all those struggles and everything, but I think it's it's takes some time off every now and then just to just to uh be thankful for um all the all the uh wonderful um people we've met and all the kids that we've brought joy to and and of all ages and uh and just be thankful that uh we're all here to have the you know be in the best industry ever.

SPEAKER_02 58:15

Well, what a great way to way to bring this uh podcast home. Well, this is certainly the highlight of my month every time I get a talk to somebody like you, and this has been more fun than than uh than I expected. So thanks for your colorful stories. And it's our first PG-rated podcast, however.

SPEAKER_01 58:34

I mean, if you don't if you want to break that stuff, don't don't don't worry, man. Uh uh, you know, probably save me, uh save me some embarrassment if my mother watches this.

SPEAKER_02 58:45

Well, hey, I thank you for your time and uh and uh just really enjoyed chatting with you. I know we've spent some time together socially, but uh this is this is special for me. So thanks for uh accepting the invitation and uh sharing some great stories.

SPEAKER_01 59:00

Thank you, Randy, and thanks for your pursuit of the truth. And you know, you might you might even have a better job than I do. You can talk to all these guys and have fun with them.

SPEAKER_02 59:10

So well, the only problem with this this particular job, it doesn't pay.

SPEAKER_01 59:14

Well, that's you know, that's well, you know what it is. It's like the more fun you're having, the less money you're working, you know. Isn't that isn't that interesting?

SPEAKER_02 59:23

If what you're doing, it's not worth it. This is a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01 59:25

You know, you know, they if they're paying you a lot of money, it's probably because you're you're enduring a lot of pain.

SPEAKER_02 59:32

Oh, I hit tall. All right. Well, thank you, uh, Eugene. I appreciate it very much. Thank you, Randy. Thanks for inviting me on.

SPEAKER_01 59:43

It's it's been talking about game over.