Episode 14: Navigating Estrangement: A Journey of Heartbreak and Hope - Part 2

In this episode of Motherhood and the Messy Middle, Robin and Nicole continue their deep dive into the complexities of estrangement. They discuss the emotional layers, offer compassionate support, and share small steps forward for those experiencing distance or silence with their children.

Nicole opens up about her personal journey, emphasizing the importance of community and the strength found in vulnerability. The episode highlights the launch of Nicole's new online space, Between Hope and Heartbreak—a private, faith-based community for mothers navigating estrangement.

👉 Learn more and request to join at betweenhopeandheartbreak

Motherhood is a multifaceted journey, and it's okay to ask for support and feel a range of emotions along the way. You don’t have to walk this road alone.

00:00 Introduction and Welcome

00:31 Understanding Estrangement

01:38 Identity Beyond Motherhood

03:33 Navigating Reconciliation

08:37 Creating Supportive Spaces

11:40 Building a Community

19:46 Advice for Supporters

22:11 Final Thoughts and Encouragement

25:42 Conclusion and Resources

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Transcript

0:00

Welcome back to Motherhood and the Messy Middle. If you listen to part one of this conversation on estrangement, you already know this is a very tender topic, one that deserves time, care, and space to breathe. So if you're here for part two, we're so glad that you came back. Now, whether you're walking through silence. Distance or heartbreak with your child, or you simply are like me and wanna better understand what estrangement really looks and feels like you're in the right place. Nicole's sharing more of her experience of her wisdom and her heart. Today we're diving deeper into the emotional layers and exploring what support and small steps forward can look like. Let's take a deep breath and begin again. Welcome to motherhood and the Messy Middle where grade school meets grown kids. Hot flashes meet holy fire, and no topic is too messy for this village. I'm Robin. One half of the voice behind this podcast. Nicole and I are two moms who slid into each other's dms and built a virtual village where we are inviting you in into our honest, healing, and often hilarious conversations. Help you feel not so alone. In the beautiful chaos of motherhood and midlife, we talk about what it really means to mother to grow, to fall apart and rebuild spiritually, emotionally, hormonally, and sometimes all before breakfast. So whether you're in the thick of motherhood, facing perimenopause, praying hard, or just tired of pretending, you're fine. This face is for you. Let's dive in.

nicole: 1:38

I feel like our identity as moms, like that's our whole identity, is that we're moms. And that's not a negative, but also through this shift I have to redefine the identity because it's not all of who I am and so what is there outside of that that I can also clinging to and find hope in? Because what if there isn't reconciliation? Do I believe that it's possible and God could do it? Yeah. But I also know that that's not always everyone's story. That's not how it ends. It's not a hallmark ending. It's not hugs and kisses. It's not all those things. Do I believe it's possible? Yes. Do I also know that it might not happen? Yeah. And so what does it look like if it doesn't? And what do I ground myself in and where do I find my identity if it doesn't, because I don't think. That we're meant to live with the shame of it and to beat ourselves up with it. I think there's a season of that. Sure, we're human beings, but I think there's more beyond that. I think we have to grow beyond that. What does it, what else does that mean for us if it doesn't mean reconciliation? Well, and that's been a hard one.

robin: 2:55

You're, when you're talking about the identity of being a mother, that's not just something that moms who are going through estrangement. R Navigate, that's every mom where Right. That becomes our definition. And then how do we, you when they leave the nest, right? When they, as they grow up right, in all the different, because those dynamic

nicole: 3:18

shifts and then it's like they don't need you in the same way. And so what does that mean for me? Because they're supposed to leave and fly the nest, and there is a pivot. And so then what does that mean for us and motherhood, if that's, that's it. And so I, I think you're right. Like, well, I know you're right. That that is, that's

robin: 3:33

what Well, and I ha, I just, I have to interject, as you know, your friend and a relentless seeker of the full like truth and beauty that. Is in all of the different experiences that we have in this life, and that's no matter what happens, you are and always have been a good mom. And the, the way that anyone can determine whether or not they are a good mom is if they've questioned. If they are.

nicole: 4:06

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because

robin: 4:09

the people who aren't, aren't questioning. They're disconnected and there's a lack of consciousness and self-awareness to even ask that question and try to shift anything. Right. And though. It's this, tricky piece to navigate the boundaries of whose stories are what to share. Mm-hmm. I do feel compelled to bring attention to, you know, as our friendship was emerging, you were in that reconciliation phase mm-hmm. And you were sharing so many different aspects of what was going on in that rebuilding and the ways that you were being stretched in. Holding the space as we like to, to talk about that language, um, for your daughter. And you and I ha are very similar and we're very different and have a lot of very different life experiences. Mm-hmm. And. You had come to me to ask my opinion about, um, some different even terminology and what this means. Mm-hmm. And what I was in awe of is that you weren't just like behind closed doors coming to your, you know, virtual village friend and asking questions or Googling on the internet. You were directly engaging with. Your daughter.

nicole: 5:24

Mm-hmm.

robin: 5:24

You were directly engaging with your children, right? Mm-hmm. With your husband, like as a family in the vulnerability. Mm-hmm. I don't know the answer to this, or I don't know what this means. Can you mm-hmm. Help me understand where you're coming from. Mm-hmm. And that is. Such an incredible gift that you gave to yourself and to your daughter, and to your family, and to the world, because too few of us don't have the willingness to sit in the discomfort, especially when something is so outside of our experience. Mm-hmm. And, and, and how we would want. To see, or the things that have been been presented to us in the world. Mm-hmm. And as a, you know, a, an observer of all of these pieces that you've been going through, I have to imagine that your heartbreak is even more so because of how much. You stretched yourself and strengthened in the process, the relationship that when you, when you've put in even more supports and, and all of that, it's like, how, how can this be happening again? Yeah. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And we're not in control though. That's right. And that's the thing about raising these humans is mm-hmm. We don't have, we don't have control in this world. We don't have control over anything. Yeah. Other than ourselves.

nicole: 6:57

Yeah. Yeah. That was really, another layer of it for sure. Is that stretching. And we had such a good relationship where I could come to her and be like, can you, I wanna make sure that I get it right. Mm. Can you help me know what I should do to honor this request or to respect you because you are so important to me that I Yeah. That I'll, I'm gonna learn this because it's what? You're asking or what you need or what you feel, what you need to feel supported. And I want you to know that we support you. And yeah, that was a hard piece because it was, I think it helps that I've, like we've preached about it. We were not preached, we've talked about it so much here of sitting in the discomfort and so I had gotten, I've gotten more comfortable with sitting in this discomfort. When you were talking, the first thing that came up that made me a little emotional was that those are the things that I feel like gave me hope. If we can have these really uncomfortable, really hard conversations that statistically and like socially people aren't having with their kids, they're choosing to like disconnect or distance or just share an opinion of how they think their kids are getting it wrong or making bad choices. And we chose the opposite, We chose to make ourselves, and I'm not saying this to like glorify our decisions, but just to give con, we chose to make ourselves uncomfortable and we chose love above everything else, and support and respect,

robin: 8:21

which is what Jesus really does,

nicole: 8:23

right? Yes. And that's really what we felt. And so it really, maybe I really had a lot of hope and I hear a lot on social media. I know we started talking about social media and then we, I veered off, but Now I'm exclusively talking about estrangement and it just became evident that that's what the Lord was calling me to do. And it's been clear from the response that it's what needs, there's just Robin, it's so heartbreaking. My dms every day, like they're so, they're so heavy and it's. And it's, there's so many misconceptions. There's a hundred percent toxic parents and there's a hundred percent people not taking responsibility. And that children do need to have boundaries with their parents. But then there's this group of us that that's not the story. And it's really heartbreaking.

robin: 9:13

And you, and you know, I also, I just wanna, wanna speak to, because I've done so much work as somebody who continues to heal trauma, and this is trauma that you're going through. Mm-hmm. Um, it's significant. And I would even, um. You know, I'm not a licensed therapist, but I'm a licensed liver of, of um, a lot of life and it's complex. It's not just a big T one experience, it's all of these, these pieces. Mm-hmm. And um, the fact that you are creating a space to help support others, and then all of these other components are coming in and they're all just human and have their flaws and some of them are completely unconscious of what they're even saying and, and, and doing and all of that. It's amazing that you're doing this and my greatest. Wish for you, and we've, we've talked about this outside of the podcast, is that you can find ways to ground yourself and to connect with God and give, continue to take that energy and create energetic boundaries. This is where like if I was doing a Reiki session, I would have you like,

nicole: 10:29

yeah,

robin: 10:29

tune into that and like infuse the Holy Spirit around you and give. Know that you're holding that space for them, but holding the space doesn't mean you need to hold the heaviness and that. Right. I'm definitely learning like this is gonna be, and that it's really hard when you are coming from a place where your wounds are still wounds. Right. They scab over, but they can be picked right back open. Right. And it's so important that you, this work that you are doing is absolutely. Incredible. You are a gifted writer. You are a gifted conversationalist. You're, you're so gifted at being able to create spaces that help people feel seen.

nicole: 11:18

Mm-hmm.

robin: 11:19

And yet I, I really worry about your energy to be able to do that.

nicole: 11:24

Yeah. You and I have had some conversations and, yeah, it's definitely gonna be a learning and it's definitely evident that there's work that I still need to do in order to be able to, Show up and do what God's calling me to do and hold space and, be an encouragement. Part of why, one of the ways I'm trying to structure, support for moms who are walking through this is we have the prayer workbook and then I also just recently launched an online community through an app. I tried doing one through like social media. It's been trial and error, but I finally decided that this is somebody came into my dms and they said something about how they had this emotional response to, they're walking through estrangement and they get on Facebook and they see somebody's family picture. And that's fantastic for that family. Yeah, but it's heartbreaking for that mom who's like feeling raw. And so I felt that we needed a community off social media so that we don't have to do that. We don't have to scroll past that. Maybe number one, Facebook memories.

robin: 12:24

Oh yeah. Is awful. Yeah. I hate

nicole: 12:26

Facebook.

robin: 12:28

Yeah. And

nicole: 12:28

scrolling past other people's, you know, families can be heartbreaking. So off social media and there, there's a fee for it, which I, I mean, I've gotta be really honest. I struggled with,'cause I wanna be able to provide these free things. And I know you and I have talked about this at length, but it's so affordable at this rate. It's less than a cup of coffee If we were going out to coffee once a month and in it. There's devotionals and there's verses, but honestly what I'm finding so far, we're just starting. So it's just a small little group of us, 10 of us. And what I'm finding is though, that it's really just the connection. Mm-hmm. They want to talk to other moms who are walking through it. The most conversation that's happening is. Not in the devotionals. It's not in the prayers, it's in, um, there's like different rooms in it so that it's easy to navigate so you don't, things don't get lost. But one of the rooms is favorites where we can put our favorite verses, our favorite podcasts, our favorite books, favorite songs that speak to us, and then there's one for hard days. Mm. And that one is getting the most because we just wanna feel seen and connected, and we're not alone because you feel so alone. So many seasons of motherhood, we feel so alone, but specifically talking about this one, like not everyone we know is walking through it. Yeah. It's not the same as, it's not the same as, I say this all the time because you've been around for a while. You've heard it. It's not the same as toddler time. We're not going and talking about how often they pooped, how long they slept, if their naps are working, what foods we're trying. We're talking about deep, heavy stuff sometimes that we don't, it's too emotional for or we don't have. Just like my story, there's some of my story that overlaps with her story that I don't feel like I can share. So we're not gonna share that on a public forum, but we need somebody to get it. And we need to show up in a place where we don't feel like we have to explain. Part of my goal today from my per, like my personal self when talking about this, was not to explain away the way I was feeling, because I have a habit of doing that or try to prove that I was a good mom or that I, I didn't, I didn't that, that the reaction didn't meet, like the conversation that got us cut off, like the conversation that got us cut off was so dumb. And I tried to apologize. I try and I did all the things that people on social media like to comment and say, have you tried this? Have you tried? Yes, thank you. I have, and still I am here. But I wanted a place where we didn't have to explain that. We just got to show up and say, I get it girl. Yeah, me too. This sucks. But also encourage each other and we're. It's happening. And that is really, it makes me super emotional because that would not have come without the Lord's like continuing prompting to me. Mm-hmm. And I think it's such a needed space and I'm so confident that the Lord is gonna build it into these women having connections even off the app, that there's going to be a place that's going to be just so much encouragement. One of the gals came on there yesterday as I'm having a hard day and multiple women. I get it. Been there encouragement, like I had disconnected a little bit because my husband's back in town for just a couple of days, so I didn't see it till this morning, but they had already done it. They had encouraged her. My gosh. They had given her, so I didn't even have, I stepped in today, but they, instead of leaving her hanging until I could get there, like they stepped in and did it and that. It's powerful and I'm so, so confident that God is gonna meet these women in this group and it's going to be a safe place. And my hope is, my hope and my prayer and I'm is that there is reconciliation and then we can reach back and be like, girl, this, like, there's hope. Mm-hmm. Because what I hear over and over and over and again in my dms in the comments is, hope is too fragile to hold. Mm. It's too vulnerable. And I remember I, and I, I, I feel a little bit that way now, but I remember that the first time it's too fragile to hold. It's too, it is too hard. And that's valid. That's valid.

robin: 16:27

And so, yeah, we gotta take a pause right now because I want our listeners to understand exactly what this community looks like. So first of all, the membership. How much does it cost? 3 99 right now.$3 and 99 cents. I don't even think like a gas station coffee.

nicole: 16:47

It's probably true with inflation.

robin: 16:49

Yeah. Um, I mean, I've never heard of, um, a membership being this affordable and it's really just like taking a girlfriend out for a cup of coffee mm-hmm. Or buying that cup of coffee yourself. And it's, it's a space that you're, you've. You've been so intentional and deliberate on even choosing the platform. Mm-hmm. For those of you who might be familiar, it's a platform called Mighty Networks and what's really. Great about it is that it connects you in these different rooms, like Nicole was saying, and you can see if there's people that live based off of the location that you put in. Yeah. And so as this grows more and more, the intention is mm-hmm.

nicole: 17:35

Taking

robin: 17:36

the virtual village and, and expanding it, having this be the home base. Right. But like expanding that net and even the potential to meet in real life. Yeah. Yeah. If there's people that live near you. Mm-hmm. Um, and the title of it is just profound. Go ahead and, and tell them the membership between,

nicole: 17:56

between Hope and Heartbreak.

robin: 17:58

Between Hope and Heart.'cause I think

nicole: 17:59

that's where we're living as moms walking through estrangement. We were living between hope and heartbreak we're working towards, we hope for reconciliation, but in the meantime, we're here in the heartbreak.

robin: 18:11

And in order to hold that, we need to get where we are meant to be as women and as mothers. And that's in villages. We are not meant to walk any part of this alone. It's in our ancestral right? DNA. We are supposed to be here holding hands and cheering each other on. And regardless of whether you have a partner or not, and even if they're the most progressive partner in the entire mm-hmm. World. They cannot, nobody can take on all of you all of the time, and Right. Other moms who are going through the same shared experiences, that's where. True communion and, and mm-hmm. Where the hope that is very fragile, but where it truly can be held. So I encourage every woman who is walking on this journey to, uh, join the membership and, uh, get, get connected and get the support. I have a, a couple things that I want to ask you, Nicole. Um. And then I'm going to ask if there's anything else that you wanna share before we wrap up. But the first that I wanna ask you is for someone like me, and there are other listeners who are just like me mm-hmm. That are really, we we're, we're part of this, this, this virtual village. We're in this conversation. We wanna hold the space for our friends. We. Are empathic and can feel the heartache and, you know, between the hope and the heart heartbreak and all of that. What would be your advice of how can I support you during this? Mm-hmm. What are things that I could do and what are things that I definitely should not do?

nicole: 19:58

That's, a great question. We don't need the unsolicited advice. We've already thought about it. We've already beat ourselves up and we've already tried. What we need is compassion. We need grace, and we need reminders that it's okay to not be okay. Mm-hmm. It's okay if we wanna try again to reach out. It's okay if we don't. Just honoring where she's at. Praying for her. When women have babies and when there's deaths, people bring food. Food is good in all different struggles. Season changing season, food is good in any different, any change of season in motherhood. Sometimes just bring food, maybe drop it at her door and be okay with it. She may not wanna answer. Mm-hmm. I think also creating space for her to say no to.'cause sometimes, even though we're lonely, uh, showing up and having a conversation real hard is really, really hard. And so being okay with the maybe. Getting together isn't what she needs right now. Mm-hmm. So how can you show up for if, if that's not what she needs her now? Like drop off a meal, drop off some coffee, drop off a treat, and a note to remind her that you love her and that she is a good mom and that she's, God sees her god's with her in the pain. Allow her to just feel like something else that came up for me is it's really okay to go through all of the things. Even if you're really mad at God, he can handle it. Mm-hmm. He's good. You don't have to protect your feelings from him. And so when she shares that she's really mad at God, don't tell her she's wrong. Just love her in spite of it. Love her still. Mm-hmm. I think I covered not to say and say kind of all in one breath.

robin: 21:59

You did. Yeah. Sometimes it's easier to, I ask that question deliberately.'cause sometimes it's easier to tell people what they shouldn't do. Yeah. Than what, what they could do. Yeah. Now my second question is for the mom who's listening in tears. During this episode or episodes, I think we're gonna be splitting it into two. Who's feeling like she's failed? Hmm. What would you want her to hear?

nicole: 22:30

Well, first I wish I could give her a hug. Motherhood is hard and it's a journey that has twists and turns and, if we can set our eyes on Jesus and what he's doing, how he's meeting us in our despair, that's where we'll find our hope because our kids are also flawed humans. And, um. They're not gonna be able to meet our needs, all of our needs. And so where can we go to find all of our needs to be met? There's only one person who can do that. You're a good mom. The things that happen we don't deserve. I'm sorry this is happening to you, but it doesn't define you. It doesn't define your whole motherhood journey. There's still so much good in your motherhood experience and what you've walked through and how you've grown into the woman that you are because of motherhood. It doesn't define, it's just a season. It's just one part of it. It doesn't consume every part of it, even though it feels like it. Let's be real. It feels like it, but it doesn't. It doesn't have to, and there's hope and you're gonna be okay. But it's also okay if you're not okay. Honor your feelings. I think the more we push it off too, it becomes we're just delaying the inevitable. Like just be mad. I feel like you could probably speak to that, like just honor it like it is, it is what it is. Don't push it off because you think it should be like, just be mad or accept that you're done being mad, you're done grieving and it's okay to experience joy. Your life will go on and you'll experience happiness and joy and there will be things that come up that like the grief that will come up. Like this week it was my husband and i's wedding anniversary and he asked me do you have any pictures on your phone that I could use for like a, you know, anniversary post of our wedding? Nope. Only ones I have was with me and my daughter feels, can't use those. I mean, I guess we could, but. It feels like it's salt in the wound. So, Nope. Don't only have those, why have those? Only those, I don't know. You're allowed to, you'll experience happiness and joy and you don't need to feel guilty about that.

robin: 24:56

Yeah,

nicole: 24:57

yeah,

robin: 24:58

yeah. I just wanna emphasize again,'cause you know, you said it for all of our listeners, and I'm gonna say it again. We have the capacity for it all. Mm-hmm. And the only emotion that is not okay is the one that gets stuck. Hmm. Emotion means energy in motion. We have to move through and with it, and the best way to do that is in community with others. Mm-hmm. So remember, Nicole has built between Hope and Heartbreak, which is that private, safe, nurturing community where your story can be seen, supported and honored if you are walking through a season of estrangement yourself. And I just have to say, wow. If, this conversation brought up big feelings, you're not alone. I want to thank you, Nicole, for all of you and what you are bringing in this world. There are so many moms that are quietly carrying this in their heart and there unsure where to turn. And so you creating the between hope and heartbreak community is. Really powerful. And I have to say, as someone who hasn't walked this road personally, again, thank you for your honesty, Nicole, for your strength and for helping us all better understand how to hold space without that judgment or pressure. So if this episode resonated with you. Or you know, a mom who's walking through something similar, please share it with her. She might be waiting for someone to speak what she can't. Mm. And if you're finding comfort in these conversations, it would mean the world to us if you'd leave a review and let others know why this podcast matters. Until next time, please be gentle with yourself. Mm. And remember, the messy middle is a place we don't have to walk through alone. Until next time,

nicole: 27:00

bye bye guys.

27:02

Hey, before you go, we've got something just for you. We created the motherhood and the messy middle resource vault. It's a growing library of support that's just for you. So inside you're gonna find tools from both Nicole and my work plus resources that we mention right here on the podcast. It's free, it's sent straight to your inbox, and it's always evolving just like you. So take what you need, leave the rest. You never know when you're gonna need it or when your group chat might thank you for it. So use the link in the show notes or head to motherhood and the messy middle.com to get access and welcome to your virtual village.