S2 E2: Estrangement, Grief, and the Power of Community

In this episode of 'Motherhood and the Messy Middle,' hosts Robin and Nicole dive into the complexities of estrangement and grief, especially as they pertain to motherhood and midlife. 

Robin and Nicole discuss their personal experiences with estrangement, the challenges it brings, and the importance of creating supportive, judgment-free spaces. They introduce the concept of a virtual village to help women feel seen and connected. The episode also highlights Nicole's community app for moms navigating estrangement, offering a faith-based approach to healing and support. The hosts emphasize the importance of leaning into difficult conversations to diminish shame and enhance empathy. They also touch on the toxic nature of social media and the need for more personal, offline connections. 

00:00 Welcome to Motherhood and the Messy Middle 

01:02 Catching Up and Rejuvenation 

02:12 Introducing the Estrangement Series 

03:44 Navigating Social Media and Mental Health 

12:09 Defining Estrangement and Prodigal 1

8:07 Faith and Hope in Estrangement 

24:24 Wrapping Up and Looking Forward

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Transcript

Speaker 3: 0:00

Welcome to Motherhood and the Messy Middle where grade school meets grown kids, hot flashes, meets holy fire, and no topic is too messy for this village. I'm Robin.

Speaker 4: 0:11

I'm Nicole, and we're two moms who slid into each other's dms, built a deep friendship without ever meeting in person, and now we're creating a virtual village where we're inviting you in. This is season two and we're continuing our mission of normalizing the messy middle through real connecting conversations between two friends who are living it right alongside you.

Speaker 3: 0:30

We'll be experimenting this season with themed miniseries on topics like estrangement, difficult conversations, holidays and personal growth, always with honesty, hope, and maybe even a little laughter. Because we know that motherhood and midlife, it can stretch you spiritually, emotionally, hormonally, sometimes all before breakfast.

Speaker 4: 0:52

So whether you're raising littles, navigating midlife, or just tired of pretending that you're fine, this space is for you. So let's dive in.

Robin: 1:02

Oh my gosh. Hello. How are you? Well, I'm a little unhinged, as I already mentioned, just buzzing with all of the doing and the energy and literal caffeine and seeing a great friend and then being able to be with you right now.

Nicole: 1:19

I love a good unhinged, I feel like. I feel like those are the best times. They sure are. They can be right. How was the, how was your time with a friend? Isn't it amazing how like rejuvenating, like just that hour or half an hour or whatever when you have like coffee with a friend.

Robin: 1:39

And it's also stunning because we were like, oh my gosh, we haven't been together since April. Our daughters were Girl Scouts together. Mm-hmm. And her daughter has transitioned out of Girl Scouts, and so we're not seeing each other. And it just was like, it's just stunning how time is. I was like, oh yeah, you're oldest is a sophomore in college. She's like, no, she's a junior. And I'm like, what?

Nicole: 1:59

Right. Where does time go?

Robin: 2:00

Yeah, exactly.

Nicole: 2:02

That's crazy. Yeah. It's

Robin: 2:03

so good. It is so good. It is so good. And we need like that rejuvenation in all of the different spaces and ways and all of it. And I'm feeling just really rejuvenated about, um, our focus for motherhood and the messy middle and stepping into this series on estrangement and really, you know, it's, it's, it's weird for me to say that I'm excited about it because. It's not like a, I'm not like, oh yay, there are women going through this and you're my friend Nicole, and you're going through this and yay, I'm excited for you. It's just this same like energy of really feeling aligned with what God has put in my heart around. Learning and being open and building spaces and creating connections, and I'm just in awe of what you're doing in that world. And, um, so we're gonna be doing a series on estrangement and we're gonna do three episodes. So if you're ready, let's just start.

Nicole: 3:10

Yeah, I think I, and I think you started off on a good spot.'cause I feel like I needed to give a, when we were getting ready to start,'cause I feel like I'm in such a different season of estrangement that it does feel lighter. Like it's still a very heavy, sad, emotional, all these things. But it's different. I'm, I feel like it's, I'm in a different season of grief with it. And so it feels much lighter than the last time we talked about estrangement. Um. And we, I, we just did, so I am part of walking through this road of estrangement. I created this community off social media because I really. Social media can be so painful with like its memories, like the memories are fantastic. Sometimes that Facebook reminds you, but also when you're walking through a time when you're not talking to your child, if Facebook can really suck, because number one, you're seeing the memories you, there's no control of what's popping up, and then you're seeing everyone else's like. Curated picture perfect families, which is fantastic and no judgment on them, but also a reminder that that's not what my family looks like right now. And so being able to connect with women outside of a Facebook group on this community app, I think has been really a really cool experience. And I say all of that to say that we had like our first like Zoom like meetup, I guess this last weekend. And it was really kind of neat to see. There was just a few of us that came, but there was two of us that were in similar seasons of. The grief and then the, another, another set that were in similar seasons of grief. And I thought that was really beautiful to just be able to make that connection of that we're all, there's this umbrella that includes us all, but there's different seasons of it and there's no right or wrong. It's just, it looked, it looks different at different times. And so I feel much lighter about talking about this today. So like you saying like you're excited, like I'm excited to talk about it too.'cause I'm excited to talk about a different perspective. I feel like the last time we talked about it was so heavy and I'm ready. Like, let's talk, let's talk about it like in a casual, like this is life, this is what's happening. I don't know. Kind of why, I guess. Well,

Robin: 5:10

cause that's the reality and like motherhood in the messy middle is holding space for all of it. Right? Right. And like something might. Spark something in you and you shift into a heavier feeling and processing through those. Sure. Um, I also just find so much value in really naming how toxic social media can be even with the best intentions of being in a private, closed community. Opening the app on Facebook. And I also have been doing a lot of, um, introspection around the layers between different platforms of how they feel for me. Mm-hmm. And for both you and I, you know, social media is a marketing, uh, strategy right. For us. Right. And I yet have to honor my own gateways around it. And Facebook is the most beneficial for groups. Right. And for how that is, but it is the most detrimental personally for my mental health. Mm-hmm. Because those are people that, the majority of them, other than, you know, you I've met in, in physical community. Right, right. And, um. Yeah, so it just makes it so much more complex when there's different things that emerge and as we know, the algorithms are trained to catch our attention and right the amount of like fear and um. Just really trying to attack people's pain points. It's, it's just to grab attention. Right. You know, that's hard. And when you're already coming in so tender, I'm just right. Really, really proud of you for being so intentional in creating a space and investing your financial resources to create and maintain that space that's off of social media for women who are walking through estrangement. Right. So, um, I wanna make sure that in the show notes we will have a link so that people can learn more about it. Um, yeah. About the between Hope and Heartbreak community. Um, can you remind me though, of the ridiculously affordable cost that you are? Yeah, I'm only charging

Nicole: 7:18

3 99'cause I don't want it. I don't want, hold on. That's$3 right? Throughout$3 90 cents, 99

Robin: 7:24

cents.

Nicole: 7:25

Because I don't want it to be unaffordable for someone. I want it to it. I mean, I honestly, the prices of coffee nowadays, like it's less than a. Cup of coffee at a gas station.'cause I want it to be affordable.'cause I don't, it's not, I'm not trying to make money off of, I just wanna, I have to pay for the app. So I'm just trying to break even on the app. And even if I didn't, I feel the Lord called me to it. I would do it regardless. But I also like, so I just try, I'm trying to keep it affordable. For people to be able to access it, because I do like, it's growing still. The last time we talked about this, there was like 10 of us and we just hit the 50 member mark. So it's growing. Woo. Yay. Like I said, we had our first like Zoom meetup and we're doing, we're reading a book together, so we had a book call the other night too. And so it's evolving and growing and um, I was really cool when the women connected with our group call because they exchanged phone numbers. Oh my gosh. And I think that's, that like, just made my heart so happy that like, yeah. You know, the Lord's called me to talk about this and to see other women get to connect and outside of any, the social media or any apps or anything, like, that's where the beauty is.'cause that's really what I want. And that's so much of what we talk about too here, of like when you feel seen. It's such a powerful thing. Like it empowers you to feel like, I mean, number one, I'm not crazy. Like just simply putting it

Robin: 8:41

You're a little crazy. Well,

Nicole: 8:42

I mean, yes, but just like affirming that like you're not on an island. Yeah. And so much with estrangement, you do feel Yeah. Like you're a little cuckoo. Yeah. And like you're all alone because there's these layers of shame that come with estrangement, right. That talking to some, and I think this probably goes for any, can go for anything, but when you're talking to somebody who doesn't understand. There are questions while there's no ill intent, they don't always land, and it's hard. It's just so much easier to just play it off, like everything's fine and cool. When someone says like, Hey, how's your kid? Oh, they're fine. I don't really know if they're fine, but I don't wanna, I don't wanna get into the weeds of it. And so you just don't talk about it to people and there's so much. Again, it's like well intended, but the conversation around it is like, well, have you tried reaching out? I would just keep reaching out. Or have you tried apologizing? And while there's no ill intent, it is very like, Ooh, of course I have. Like, I'm not just sitting here being like, yeah, bye. See you later. Don't wanna talk to you either. Um, so, and for

Robin: 9:41

someone like me who really, I mean, I'm gonna be really vulnerable and honest, I did not understand what that word meant, estrangement. Mm-hmm. And when you and I first were, um, you know, really creating our, our relationship and learning about each other, you started. Using the word, you know, prodigal. Mm-hmm. And that was new to my vocabulary as well. And so it's really been, you know, deepening for me to learn about these things. And I have so much empathy for how uncomfortable it is for you walking through that and being dealt with those scenarios. And I just wanna name. That it's uncomfortable for me as well. Mm-hmm. Because I don't know. And Right, and it's just like you said, we have no ill intent and yet one of the bigger. Problems in our society is that we don't know how to sit in discomfort. Right. Without trying to fix Right. Or numb or just shortcut things. Right. Right. And um, we've been conditioned that way and there's a lot of benefit to the fast pace of our society to access like the globalization piece. Right. But when it comes to these deep things that are so complex, right. So complex. Um, you know, I even think there's a couple connections I wanna make here. One is what I started with just, you know, me being unhinged and coming from this beautiful coffee connection. I was really vulnerable in sharing some pieces that this friend didn't know about my story. And. That's what happens when you're in a relationship. Right. And it Right evolves. And then my relation to that story and how it's come has evolved. And it's hard even for me sometimes to keep up with in real time, like where my grief or my whatever is, right? Mm-hmm. And I can imagine it's just like that for estrangement. Mm-hmm. And that by learning about this and being able to talk about it here in this series on our. Podcast. It's helping to really help people feel seen, not only that are walking through estrangement, but that are women like me who aren't sure and are just empathic and wanting to show up as the best version of Friends, soul Sisters. Right, right. Community members. Right. So, Nicole, I I'm gonna ask you if you could define. Both estrangement.

Nicole: 12:18

Mm-hmm.

Robin: 12:18

And then also, um, your use of the word prodigal. And not only what they mean, but how you've shifted in, in using those words. Mm-hmm. Like how it's evolved.

Nicole: 12:33

Mm-hmm. Um, okay. First I wanna just touch on something that I said before.'cause I know we'll end this podcast and be like, I wish I would've said, um, because when I'm talking about how people say things that. Then like are uncomfortable for us so we shut down. I don't want that to mean that people, I don't wanna shut down conversations'cause I think there's so much shame around we don't know what to say, so we don't say anything at all. And so there's. They're both sides to the coin where there's sometimes it feels like you're damned if you do. You're damned if you don't. And I don't want people to feel like what I said comes across that way.'cause sometimes it is better to ask and get it wrong and miss the mark because that's also how we learn. Because not talking about things doesn't help us. Just like with your friend, like not connecting, not talking doesn't help anybody learn or grow or like understand how to connect better and all of the things. So I just wanna like say that for my own so I can feel like I like was clear on that. Um. But it's just like, how, how we protect ourselves a little bit more as what I was trying to say than how I feel about someone asking me. Does that make sense what I'm saying?

Robin: 13:36

Mm-hmm. Okay. I mean, I'm over here going. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because that is you, um, wanting to explain that. I don't need that. Like I know where your heart is and I know, but it is this challenge for us because, you know, we don't script what we're gonna say. We are really intentional about having this conversation style around a theme to help women feel seen. Right. And it's, for me, it's my neurodivergence is always trying to frame like, who am I talking to? Right. And, um, making sure that there is that. Understanding.'cause like a word is just a placeholder for us to be able to connect and share experiences and things. And there's so many nuances to it, right? And so many assumptions that, that people make. But yeah, I want you to know that your heart is very, very clear to me. Okay? And that you show up. I see you as nothing but aligned and um. You have very, just a really strong sense of who you are and the things that, um, you bring to relationships as well as that you want to, you know, get out of them. And it's not in a way of energy, vampire or sucking. It is in true connection. Mm-hmm. Um, and that I also wanna honor. It's super messy. That's what you wanna say? Yeah.

Nicole: 15:05

Like, yeah. Just embracing the messiness. Okay. So back to what you were at saying estrangement and like prodigal. So. I, I guess I didn't always know what those words meant either, but, so the over estrangement, there can be different layers of estrangement and it can be a full disconnect where there's no contact, um, from a fam in this instance, a family member, a child. And then there can be like layered, there could be a strained or a distant relationship where it's, um. There's reduced contact or communication. There's also other things that people bring up. A lot of parent alienation. Parent alienation would be where, you know, I think typically what, I don't know that Webster definition, but like what I typically see is after a divorce or separation, one parent, um, you know, convinces the child or views the child or brings the child over to their side. And so there's alienation for the other parent. Mm-hmm. So that's, you know. Equal. I mean, it's all, it's all sad and it's all messy, and it's just different names for different scenarios. Ultimately, I feel like they all essentially mean the same is there's reduced or no contact with our child, so you can call it, there's different names for different scenarios, but essentially it means there is a cutoff of communication and contact. With a child, uh, prodigal, uh, is a reference that we see in the Bible, and it's about someone who's far from home or far from God, or far in those situations is how I interpret Prodigal. And so there's the story of the prodigal son in the Bible where mm-hmm. Um, he goes off and he goes his own way. He spends his money, his own way. He asks for his inheritance, and it's early. He spins it, he squanderers it, and then he has to, he returns home to his father. Um, which is, you know, is a really beautiful story of how the, the father greets the son with so much love and excitement and throws a party. And like, he's not greeting him with shame, even though he spent all of his money and he did, you know, he went on his wayward way. Um, and so I refer to a prodigal because I. I say that I was a prodigal, so I was born and raised. Christian parents are married, and then I went my own way. I went and looked at, I walked far from God and I walked away. I looked at different religions. I, you moved out with my boyfriend. I, you know, did all of these things that were further from the Lord and the traditions of my family. And, um, but then the Lord captured my heart and reignited this fire, which I as. When our kids are prodigals, it's scary. It's terrifying when they're like making these choices. You're like, these are terrifying choices and there's, this is not going to serve you. And I agree with that, but I also can see the beauty in how God will still reach you and like it becomes your testimony and it can be. God makes good of all these things that we, our kids go through.'cause I've seen that in my own life. So those

Robin: 18:07

are the, and'cause you have faith, like belief is when you know that something has happened, but faith is deeper. Right? And because of your relationship with God and being able to see the connections in, in all of the different stories and patterns and your experiences that you have. Faith. But it'll be like that. Well it's,

Nicole: 18:24

it's even using the faith. So I think like as Christians, we talk about having faith. But until we use our faith muscle mm-hmm. And we like intentional with leaving space for faith, it still is really easy to like try to grasp onto the control of it instead of like trusting and releasing that we do like walking that faith out. Mm-hmm. So. And I, I see that a lot.'cause as actually as parents, as moms, like our kids are making these choices. They're not talking to us. They've cut us off for whatever reason. And we wanna be able to control the narrative. We wanna be able to control and bring them back. We want, because it's a tangible thing, we wanna be able to do that. And in these cases we often, we really can't. Um. And so I think why my platform is a little different in talking about estrangement than what I see a lot of, well, it's number one that I'm not a psychologist or a counselor. And a lot of people who are talking about estrangement are, um,

Robin: 19:17

and it feels more clinical coming from them. Yeah, yeah. Like yours is truly. The dance of life and of the heart,

Nicole: 19:27

right? I'm, and I'm, I, I'm just a mom and I, I think the beauty Whoa, whoa, whoa. Well, I'm, I don't mean like just a mom, I mean like Yeah, I know, but I'm the mom reaching back. I'm the mom saying like, Hey, I've been through this trenches too. Like, but because I'm in this different season of grief, I'm saying, Hey. Here's, I'm reaching back, here's what I've learned. Mm-hmm. Here's what's helped me. Maybe it'll help you. Maybe it won't. Maybe I won't be the right fit to bring you some hope, but if I am, hey, here's this hope. And I think the other thing that makes me a little different is that I'm bringing Jesus into it. And I think a lot of times when we see people talking just, just solely about estrangement, it's like you said, it's very clinical and I, I don't have all the answers. I mean, no one should claim that they do, but I definitely don't. But I have, the Lord has used this experience to bring me closer to him, and my hope in talking to moms with estrangement is to bring them hope through Jesus. Like I, you can't control what your kid does. You can't control if they wanna have a relationship with you, but you can control control how you respond. You can control what you do in the waiting and how you seek the Lord in the waiting and what the Lord's gonna do in your life while you're waiting. And how we're gonna respond in faith and say, God, here I am broken, empty a shell of a person because the only thing that I know is that how to be a mom. And now I don't know how. I can't be that anymore. So what do you have for me now? And God will make good from everything if we allow him the space to do that. So. In my excitement in talking about estrangement is my excitement in that God is we're, if we allow him to, he can do something really cool In this season, in this pain, he can meet us in such unique, tangible, thrilling ways that are so personal and feel so humbling because the God of the freaking universe like cares about me and this, this, like, this relationship, and every little, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny detail. He sees me and he'll meet me in it if I allow him to and when we need God, he shows up in those ways if we allow him to. And so this is the season where we can do that.

Robin: 21:36

Hmm.

Nicole: 21:37

Yeah. So that's why I get excited about talking about estrangement because it's easier to be that intimate with the Lord when we're in the trenches.

Robin: 21:46

Well, and what is really coming full circle for me is I'm excited about being able to talk about it too. Not for the actual experience and the pain, but for bringing to light what this topic is, right? And in the way that my. Really, my brain is directly connected with my heart, you know? Right. And I've had to be, this is just who I am and there's reasons why I'm like this, but I see the connections. And so if we take out even the word estrangement. The different layers that you were saying, and really it's the disconnection and then mm-hmm. Grief. Right. And I feel that on a visceral level. Mm-hmm. Um, and we all do because it's a, it's, these human experiences are not unique. They're unique for us, but they're not, they're, they are, um, they are shared. They're part of what we're, we are going through and, um. What I really appreciate is being able to define estrangement in these layers, in normalizing it, bringing it to the conversation. Hopefully through this first episode of, uh, this conversation, we're really shining a light to then diminish the shame because it's not about right. You know, even for me as a recovering addict and somebody who's always working on recovering my mental health, I deal with mental illness. There's so much stigma and there's stigma around estrangement. Mm-hmm. And as, um. As a person who works, you know, with women to release weight and reclaim their energy, that's not just physical weight, it's also the weight of shame, the emotional and the weight of, uh, not just shame that others might throw on you, but we are meant to judge. This is, this is gonna seem counter. From what I normally say, but it's the truth. Humans, we are meant to judge. That's what our brain is doing to help assess like safety and security and create, you know, all of these, these pieces. The extra layer of being conscious. Mm-hmm. And connected to. God And the truth of what is, is noticing those judgments. Mm-hmm. And then releasing them. Mm-hmm. And that's where all of my work around mindfulness comes in. Mm-hmm. It's like clearing, releasing that weight. Releasing the judgment. Yeah. The myths, the shame around estrangement so that you can truly get to God and then unfold the healing, what comes Yes. Yeah. The healing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I think this is a really great place to, um. To just to wrap up. I agree. And, and say, thank you for, for bringing the light. I'm like, wrap up. And you're like, let's say

Nicole: 24:33

thank you. I'm like, okay, let's get out of this conversation.

Robin: 24:38

We're sitting in some discomfort now. We're sitting in discomfort. Yes, my friend. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, and you're doing an amazing job of that. And sometimes we, you know. Sit in the estrangement and have to laugh our way through it, cry our way through it, both at the same time. We never know. We never know.

Nicole: 24:55

Right.

Robin: 24:56

Um, but I'm really looking forward to, it sounds so weird. I'm looking forward to, um, talking more about this and exploring grief.

Nicole: 25:04

I mean, but hey, I feel like. These are the uncomfortable conversations and everyone is experiencing grief and, and all different, it just come, it's coming out in different ways, like mm-hmm. And I think that there's different, and as in everything, there's different levels to the grief. Like you're no stranger to grief. Yeah. And, and processing through it. And, um, I think it, I do think it is powerful to say that estrangement, there's a level of grief.'cause I think absolutely that it would be, it's easy to say, to shrug it aside and not give it. Honor those feelings though.

Robin: 25:37

Yeah. Well, let's honor the full expression of those feelings as we go into next week's episode. And until then, no matter what season that you are walking in, just know that you're seen, you're valued, you're here. We are part of your virtual village. And thank you. Bye guys.

25:58

Bye.

Speaker 5: 25:58

Hey, before you go, this podcast is made possible by our soul led solopreneur businesses, nicole coates.com, where Nicole's helping moms navigate the pain of distance or estrangement. And robin's well nest where soul meets science meets systems to live, lead, and learn. Well support us there because it supports the conversations that we're having here. And if you love this episode, please subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review because that also helps our village grow. Now we also have the vault for you. You download the vault, which is our growing library of resources, reflection tools, and extras in the show notes, as well as at motherhood in the messy middle.com. Until next time, remember, you're never alone in the messy middle.