Welcome coaches to the Coaching Magic Podcast, where we reveal, discover, and create. A moment that makes your coaching scene, well, magical. I'm your host, Jill Young, and I invite you to listen up, giddy up, and buckle up as we play with this creative profession of coaching that helps humans become their best. Including you. On today's episode, I'm talking with Carolyn Freyer Jones. Carolyn is the author of the book, The Total Coaching Success Book. I love this tagline. Everything you need, internally and externally, to create a financially successful coaching business. She's also the creator of the CFJ Coaching School, which I love. And she has been coaching for 18 years. So she has some interesting things to say. Today, Carolyn and I unpack um some really great themes around slowing down. At the end, we she drops some big nuggets on us about listening. We meander our way through preparation. She gives us some three great words about our calendars. And uh we just have the most delightful time. I'm almost speechless. Did you guys hear me almost get speechless about my time here with Carolyn? Ooh, she also does this beautiful spin on co-creating. So, coaches, I hope that you really, really enjoy this lovely conversation that we created for you. We co-created for you and with you. Please buckle up and enjoy the conversation with Carolyn. Welcome to the Coaching Magic podcast. Coaches, today joining me, I'm so excited. I've been looking forward to this for months, is Carolyn Fryer Jones. And Carolyn is a masterful coach and a beautiful human. And uh, Carolyn, you were introduced to me through Steve Chandler, but I also feel like I know you because I've been geeking out on this book, Total Coaching Success. And I wonder if we could start with um, I'm gonna if we could start with a simple reflection. And it might be simple and deep or profound or whatever, but I have read your book twice now because once for information and well, twice for transformation. And there's this thread that runs through it that's coming to me. And it could be just a uh an um insight for me and a message for me. But I'm just wondering what your reflection is on this simple insight. Would you be willing to start simple?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. I'm thrilled, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Here's here's the simple insight that I just came down to four words. Um serve. Slow down and serve. The book is total coaching success. You've got a you've got a school around total coaching success. Slow down and serve. How do you how do you feel about that that simple thread or summary?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, it's really everything, right? I mean, it's my intention in my personal life with the people I live with, it's my intention with the clients that I serve, it's my intention with the world. Sometimes I do a better job than others. And it really is, it's like in the slowing down is where everything is available. It's deeper connection, deeper understanding and our ability to catch things we might not catch in our own conversations in life and in any coaching situation.
SPEAKER_00When we slow down, we have access to that deeper wisdom. There's a um there's a tool that I use in coaching called a clarity break. It's in it's in EOS, the entrepreneurial operating system. And sometimes clients will say, and coaches, they will say, Oh, I had this amazing thought in the shower. I had this amazing thought right when I woke up. I had this amazing thought while I was jogging. And they'll say, I don't need these clarity breaks because I have thoughts in the shower and jogging. And I'm like, Yes, those are all of the places where you're naturally slowing down. Now, they also get them while driving, and I mean, me too, you know, slow down my brain. I probably should be paying attention. But it's um putting in this tool to do this slow down on purpose, not just when your body is relaxed in the shower. That's right. Slow down on purpose. For for coaches, um, you know, especially coaches who believe in fill our calendar with you know, serving conversations, helpful, uh, go out there and serve. Um I know, and for me, when I look at this full calendar, I do I can feel this in my shoulders, like it's a full calendar, and I know I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. And this is my ideal day is to have a calendar full of conversations and like the slowing down is um is the thing that I need reminded of the most to slow down, slow down. Um, and I'm just wondering, are you finding the same thing in your coaching life and the coaches you coach?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. I mean, to me, that's I mean, we could say maybe that we're in an epidemic of being sped up. Right. I think in our worlds, in our lives, you know, and so I don't know anyone who doesn't benefit from that, right? From I don't I benefit when someone encourages me to slow down, my own coach in my own world. Um and who doesn't benefit from that?
SPEAKER_00It's possible that that all of us would benefit from slowing down.
SPEAKER_02All of us, especially when we want to speed up. And when we look at our calendars and our shoulders go up, right? It's like, ooh, to really slow down and go, is this my my day that I created? Is it really an alignment for me?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Is this the now coaches? So Carolyn, sometimes on the Coaching Magic podcast, we take a time out and I and I was like, watch what Carolyn just did right there. She said, when we slow down, when we uh when we look at the calendar that we've created for ourselves, ooh, that's such ownership language versus a victim language would be, oh my gosh, I'm so busy today. What? I can't, I can't believe how busy I am. Uh that's that's nice word choice right there. Right. I mean, we've created it.
SPEAKER_02The way I look at it is everything we, everything occurring, we create, promote, or allow.
SPEAKER_00Ooh, can we can you slow that down and say it again?
SPEAKER_02Everything, everything in our lives, even internal, we create, promote, and allow. Our calendars, we create, promote, and allow. Our businesses, our relationships, all of it. If I'm in a situation that's that's creating a challenge, my calendar, a situation with someone else, it's like one of the questions I always come to is what did I do to create, promote, or allow?
SPEAKER_00Or how did I create promote? And then in reflection, you can see it, and then maybe we can adjust it.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00We can adjust, we can adjust it for next time. Create, promote, and allow. Um, coaches, there's a fun invitation for you to ponder and reflect on those three words. A hundred percent. There's um something else that I've noticed in coaches, including myself, because if I'm if I'm a coach, I start with me. I start with me and my humanity, is that I can look at a full calendar for a day and know that I have created that. I've also promoted it. Thank, thank you. I love to use things I've just learned right away. I've created it, I've promoted it, and I've allowed it. Yeah. And if I look at that and and feel some tension, what I remind myself is when I'm actually in the day, when I'm actually in the day in the moment, it doesn't feel busy. It doesn't feel rushed. I'm I'm the kind of coach who I learned um not too long ago, maybe just a few years ago, and I've been a coach for a dozen years, that I need space in between my appointments. Like head slapper, duh, but I need space. I need space. So now my calendar looks, it might look busy, but when I'm in it, it actually feels good. So that mental projection of I've got a busy day to wait. I created this. I created this with my knowledge of what works for my body and spirit and mind. I'm promoting it because this is what I've asked for. Like this is the strategy I have chosen. And I'm allowing it of maybe not being so pressured with the over-schedule. The schedule might look rich, but I'm allowing what is gonna come up in each one of those appointments instead of being attached to an outcome.
SPEAKER_01And that right in there helps me slow down.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Um, I've also noticed, and I'd love your thoughts on this, um, you know, this this slowing down piece as I've looked at my own journey, uh, this has resulted in um it is the result of my own, what I'm just gonna call inner work, doing my own work, my own inner work. And for a lot of times when I share this with coaches, uh, I will, I will share it almost in a comical way. Um, be be careful. If you get into this work of coaching, you will do your personal work, whether you like it or not. Um, I'm wondering if you can share a few stories or insights on um maybe how coaches know when it's time to do their inner work or um the the importance of doing the inner work, whatever, whatever feels lovely.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, the way my perspective on this is that if you are a professional coach, for me, there's a requirement to be doing ongoing inner work because of the work we do with others. So that's my orientation to the profession. It's really like to me, they go hand in hand. You know, I don't know that dentists need to keep doing their inner work. And as professional coaches, right, it's like we are only able to do the work that we ourselves have done. Like, I can't take someone where I haven't gone. And really what someone is investing in when they work with me is they're investing in all that I have to give, my whole consciousness. And that means all the work I've done to date. So it's really important that I'm continuing my own growth work because then I can serve others more deeply. And my work specifically is I'm interested in the Indian work. So I do lots of stuff. Obviously, I help coaches grow their businesses, all those things, but it's always with an inside out perspective.
SPEAKER_00We always start here.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00If you have you come across coaches who um have you can sense like they're not doing their inner work and maybe describe what their life looks like.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean a coach who's not doing inner work might get more frustrated more easily. They might use victim language. They might um they might have trouble, honestly, with enrollment. They might be more surface level. So the words I use are like there's goal line coaching and there's soul line coaching, right? And goal line coaching is wonderful. We all have goals, we all have things we want. And sometimes a coach can only do more goal line because they're not doing enough of their own soul line work.
SPEAKER_00So they're defaulting to the goal line, the goal line coaching. So if a coach is feeling frustrated, they're noticing some victim language, if maybe they're starting to feel bad for themselves, you know. Sometimes that feeling comes along with that victim language.
SPEAKER_02Or your business doesn't look the way they want it to. Those are all signposts of, huh? I wonder what's happening inside.
SPEAKER_00Mirrors, yeah, reflections back to us. Then maybe it's time to do some inner work. Absolutely. This is this is so, well, it's so it's so simple. Um, I saw some of the same things when I was head coach at EOS worldwide. Someone would come to me with this goal line issue, and I'm like, oh, have we looked at it this way? And they're like, wait, that's not why I'm coming to you.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00I just want the answer. I've done A, I've done B. Now what do I do with C? And I'm like, I don't think C is gonna work unless you go back to before A. Right. Right. Is there is there something you have found that helps? Because I this is not this is not just for coaches. Um, coaches, yes, do your inner work, but uh it also happens with humans. Like as it turns out, coaches are also human.
SPEAKER_01They are, yeah.
SPEAKER_00They are, we are, we are also human. When we are when coaches are coaching humans and uh groups of humans, teams, we also find this with humans. 100%. Uh it's the victim language, they're frustrated, they're trying to hit goals, and it's not working, or uh what always used to work has stopped working. Mmm, that's a that's a really that's a really fun um that's a really fun situation to help adults through. Um is there are there a few insights that you can give the coaches of what you have seen really helps to open people up who are not quite seeing that the inner work is where we go. Are there a few few things that you do in the school or that you've seen helpful? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean often I'll start, it depends on the people, right? Because sometimes people have um, if they have no exposure to like an inside out reference point, I'll start with something simple, like Steve Chandler's victim owner, right? We can start with language. Like, do you find yourself saying a lot of I have to or I should? And we start to slow down on just even those kinds of sentences. And to me, a coach wants to get curious like tell me more about you have to meet with your team, tell me more about my team should be doing XYZ. I look for those words that indicate that there's expectation or judgment. And then I might say to someone in that situation, like, huh? It sounds like you feel like they should already know this. And they go, Yeah, I do. And I go, tell me more about that. And I let them chair, and then I'm like, huh. Would it are you like is it possible that you might be judging them? Now sometimes people don't even know what that means. They just think it's the truth. So I'll slow it down even more. So I'll say something like so a judgment is making somebody wrong. So it sounds like you might be making them wrong for not doing XYZ or not already knowing. And that really helps. People are like, oh yeah, I'm totally making them wrong. And they might be like, what's wrong with that? Because they are wrong. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01And I'll say, Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I love what you're doing here because you're just taking it's just a little step, a little step, a little step. And what I'm sensing in how you're sharing this with us is that it's a little step, and then you calibrate your energy to what they're opening up to. And then you take a little step and you're then you're recalibrating again, and a little step and recalibrating again. There's so many times where coaches will ask me, they really do want the formula. They want the 17 steps in order to answer the questions. Totally. My client does this, then what do I say? And then what do I say? And then what do I say? And it's the um to open people up to their own inner work, you're actually showing them your inner work. But just letting them have they get this experience of sitting with you and really watching how your curiosity comes alive. Like the energy of you doing your inner work, helping someone else open up their inner work. Can you can you talk a little bit about that energy inside you feeling how far you can go with that client? Does that does that have a certain you know?
SPEAKER_02So obviously, you know, I know you mentioned the book, right? The Total Coaching Success Book. And in there I share, right? My background is from the University of Santa Monica. That's where I earned a master's degree in spiritual psychology. And that program was deeply transformative. That I really that's where I learned about our inner lives and my own and my own sense of judgment and wrongmaking around eight million things in my life. And um so for me, there's coaches want sometimes want prescriptions, like you said, steps. And to me, the deepest coaching, you there I might I can say to a coach, have you experimented with this question? We can't it's it's coaching is more art than science.
SPEAKER_00Let's let that hang, let's let that statement hang here for a minute. Say it one more time and let it hang here. Coaching is more art than science.
SPEAKER_02And it does take time to get to a place in one's coaching where we're more willing to be in it versus wanting to go through steps. Right? Because I don't know, one question could lead us into a direction that will be very different than another. So to me, the best coaching is not prescriptive. It's like it's a dance.
SPEAKER_00Ah, I'm so glad you used that word. It's a dance. We have uh one of our the elements of coaching magic. I have them right here, is look we dance. I think this is backwards in the camera, but we dance. It we dance, it's just this back and forth and a um a call and response. Respond and um you're moving together. There's um I'm a big fan of preparation. I'm a big fan of preparation. And um I would love to hear what uh maybe how you prepare for coaching sessions. Uh maybe there's something that you share with your coaching school about how to prepare for sessions. And um what it it will be interesting to see how you prepare. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02My perspective on preparation. My preparation is really I do my own version of what I call it like a centering. Someone else might call it like a prayer, or you know, it depends on your spiritual foundation and practice. But it's not like you have to have a it's not, it's not religious for me. It's more like it is, and so to some people it might occur as a prayer. And me, that's my primary preparation, right? It's like I get quiet, I go inside, I ask for assistance, I ask for assistance for both of us. Sometimes I do it with the client at the beginning of the session. Sometimes clients really love that. And I've I've worked with corporate leaders and I'll be like, hey, I do this thing. Some people might think of it as a centering, others might think of it if it might feel prayer-like. We don't have to do it if you want to try it. And nine times out of 10, someone's like, I want to try it. And I'll I'll soften it, right? So that it's like I don't know where someone's at, and I certainly don't want to inflict, right? So I'm very, it's very gentle. And that's my primary preparation, whether I do it with you or I do it on my own.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Let's let's pause right there because Carolyn just shared that this is her primary preparation. A lot of coaches that I coach are we have we have do have words to memorize, we have lessons to teach, specific tools to teach. You do, right? And it's beautiful. And uh early on, maybe my first five years, somebody asked me, Jill, how do you prepare for a session? And I naturally went into, well, I I I do my workout and I do my meditation and I do my stretching. And they said, no, no, no, time out. No, you didn't get that, you didn't get the question. Like, how do you prepare for the session?
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00And I'm kind of looking around at myself thinking, well, am I an idiot? This is how I prepare for a session. And then uh, you know, just unfolding in my career as a coach, like, oh, oh, this is how great coaches primarily prepare, is we prepare our own hearts and spirits and energy. And so I still do something like you do today. And I'm gonna look at, I'm gonna look at some notes. Um primary coach, coach, coaches, coaches, coaches, you're listening to this. Carolyn said her primary preparation practice is her prayer, her centering. My own centering.
SPEAKER_02Now, own centering. If I'm working with a team and I need to, there's something I need to read, of course I'm gonna read it. If there's something that is different, and you know, I work with teams a lot. And so if there's something I need, let's say I'm preparing something that's more structured, like I'm gonna walk them through a process, that's gonna be included as well.
SPEAKER_00Of course. Of course. And then you tell me if I'm on the right track or if you're like, no, Jill, you're smoking something and it's not the good stuff. Uh, what I found is if I will only do those things, meaning the reading and the this is how I'm gonna structure it, and I just do a lot of thinking about it and I rehearse it and I rewrite my notes 17 times, um, I might show up as a good coach or a good workshop leader or a good teacher. But if I don't do my primary practice, my primary preparation of centering, it very, very few times do I show up as a great coach for them.
SPEAKER_02Yes. That's my experience, right?
SPEAKER_00That's our experience too.
SPEAKER_02Because if I'm not really anchored inside, slowed down, relaxed, it it doesn't mean the session won't be good, right? It will be good. And it might not be at the highest level of service that it can be at the highest level of service.
SPEAKER_00That that phrase just has a like a yummy, a yummy buzz to it. The highest level of service, which is what what we want to be. And we were all sharing what we do to prepare. Because I've just found that, and I'm sure you have too in the school, is that if you just just share what's working, that helps other people. And we don't really need to talk too much about what's not working. It just kind of it falls into place. So we spend a lot of time on what's working. And she was listening to everybody's preparation practices, and she said, All right, y'all, I am pissed off right now because you guys must have four hours to prepare for your session. She's like, I've got kids, I've got to run out of the house, I've got a this, I've got a that. And it was amazing how we, we all of us were dancing with this, and she was able to identify that she actually is doing a very valuable preparation practice, except hers only takes about three minutes. And it's useful. And it can, it can work. If you're listening to this and you're thinking, oh, Jill and Carolyn have 17 hours to prepare. No, I have I have a practice where I can kind of put my foot down on the ground and close my eyes and kind of lift my chest and take two deep breaths, and I am present and awake and ready to serve.
SPEAKER_02Yes, it doesn't need to take hours and hours. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Anything else you'd like to share around preparation? Anything else coming up for you?
SPEAKER_02I mean, I think it's a valuable question, right? Especially when we're newer. If we're newer, those things really matter. They make us feel better. They give us a sense of like I know the path, like I know the path. Um that's important because the most important thing is that we show up and can relax.
SPEAKER_00Most important thing is that we show up and we can relax.
SPEAKER_02We serve better when we're relaxed.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. Um, you know, as coaches, the there's a there's a lot of language out there of like coaches create a safe space. Coaches create a container. Coach, you know, your physical environment is important. You're you know, the the the very best environment, both energetically and physically and emotionally, for your client to show up and do their best work. Um, I was at an event just last night, so this is on my mind, where he said, he said, space. So, you know, when I hear the word space, I'm like, ding, ding, ding, that's me. You know, we create space. He said, Sometimes you think space is empty. He said, but space actually contains everything. And this isn't this was an Alan Watts event. And I'm like, whoa, in I I just felt this in my own coaching magic, we call it coaching magic, just expanded into when I expand, I can now create a space that includes everything.
SPEAKER_01It's beautiful.
SPEAKER_00Everything. And and then that that is where you know we drop in with that that inner work preparation. Then I do have I do have access to a quote for a client that I read a book 15 years ago. I'm like, well, in this book once, this was the quote. Would that be helpful? And then I have access.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00I'm wondering if you have thoughts around that of coaches creating space, space containing everything. Maybe space is empty in your version of space. Um, what what do you have to say about space?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, I think that you know, our our job is that we are we're I don't I I use a different, a slightly different word. Okay. That we are co-creating the space together.
SPEAKER_00Oh, boom, boom, boom. Because we also love the word co-creation in coaching. Okay. But we're co-creating the space together. Always. Always. Oh, I love I I love the idea of everything is in it. Including the client. That's right. It's not just my space you're coming into, it's our space.
SPEAKER_01That's right.
SPEAKER_00So how how does a coach play with that? Other than just intuitively like feel into that, but how does a coach play with that? We're co-creating space with our client.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, it depends, right? Because an EOS coach, right, that's a really like you said, there's very specific things, right, that you are doing with clients. And so for a for a coach who's doing that kind of process, let's call it, or methodology, um, there might be places within it to start to create more context, especially at the beginning of like, hey, we're gonna be creating something together. And when we meet, we're gonna be co-creating what occurs. So to create some context at the beginning, so that the potential client or client is like, oh, this is a collaboration.
SPEAKER_00We're doing this work together. Uh, there's it, there's these simple, simple ground rules that we even say, hey, let's make this agreement that we're not going to use our phones during sessions. Uh and now I'm just seeing that these simple ground rules we're using really is we're co-creating the space together.
SPEAKER_02Yes. And that can be articulated even with in addition to those ground rules.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Like we're going to create something together. We're going to co-create our working environment.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_02And I'm going to share some guidelines. But I what I want to say to you is we're going to co-create everything that occurs here for you. And the kind of space we're going to have when we work together.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Starting with just simply how we're going to behave. Totally. Yeah. We're going to do, we're going to take our breaks together. We're going to have one conversation. If there's something ruminating in your head, your responsibility is to say it. We have an issues list. Let's get that out of there. But it's uh, yes, we we co-create. And I can, yes, I'm going to facilitate and I'm going to coach and I'm going to teach, but we're co-creating that together.
SPEAKER_02I think that's really valuable.
SPEAKER_00Uh, there's also times I found in the coaching of the teams within the EOS methodology. I love that. Some of the most powerful moments come from when we think we're coming in the room to do the tools, the methodology. And then in EOS, we say it's three things. It's clarify your vision, it's install some tools for traction, getting stuff done. But then this third thing is healthy. And a lot of times that is like mysterious. What is that? Well, we're going to communicate better and we're going to collaborate and we're going to all work together and we're all going to have some agreements of how we behave here. But this healthy thing also has lots and lots of inner work. Oh, yeah. That naturally occurs because people are on their goal line. So I'd like to come back to your uh your methodology, and I use it too with my clients of goal line and soul line, of when people are on their goal line, they're achieving goals. A lot of times what I've noticed is spontaneous soul line occurs.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00They're having spontaneous awakenings, like, whoa. Sometimes it's like, whoa, I don't want to live this way. Sometimes it's like, wow, if I just do that one simple tool, I feel better. What is what is this? So I'm wondering if you have some insights from that. Sometimes when we start with the goal line, yeah, it ends up doing some soul line stuff.
SPEAKER_02I definitely have the same experience that goal line can open up content that's more soul line. It could be like this thing really opened me up to I don't want to live this way, right? Or it could be I loved this, I'm aware I want more of this in other areas of my life, right? Like in my relationships or in my all sorts of things. And you know, to me, I I don't, I have not found, I think it's really hard to only be a goal-line coach because you might miss those awakenings, right? You might miss those moments. And I think um it's really important that when someone has that kind of insight to slow it down and to be like, hey, so let's slow down what you're noticing. Let's slow down. Like, what does this mean to you?
SPEAKER_00Hmm. And it's right back to slow down and serve. Serve that human who's in front of you that is having a human experience. Totally. Slowing it down, being present with them in that moment, and getting curious. And getting curious. And getting curious. Yeah. And then that's that that's the pre if there's a prescription sentence, there it is. And then you just do it from there. You just you just go from there. You you follow your your heart and their heart from there. And and I have noticed that there are coaches who are backing away from those moments, they're not comfortable being sitting with the, oh, I know, say more about that. And they're not comfortable going into that and letting that that moment hang. Now we have established that and and from my own story, and I know your story from your book, that doing our own work helps me be more comfortable with sitting with another human as who is doing their own work, helps be more comfortable. Is are there a few, um, are there a few insights that you have for coaches who are like, I'm not quite comfortable going there? Maybe even this inner language of that's not what I get paid to do, I get paid to have them on the goal line. When that occurs, and I'm like talking about a spontaneous occurrence. Totally. Yeah, like, oh, here comes a you know, a heavy emotional moment or yeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean, to me, first of all, I think it's okay to not be comfortable. Hmm. I as a I don't want a coach to feel like it's a requirement. I'm like, is it okay to be uncomfortable?
SPEAKER_00Thank you for slowing that down.
SPEAKER_02Can I be uncomfortable for five seconds longer? Just five seconds. Because if I can be uncomfortable for five seconds, it gives the person in front of me the permission to also be uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_00And I'm seeing on the other side of that, if we were to paint a distinction, if I do the opposite of that, like, oh, I'm not, oh, Carolyn is tearing up. Okay, everybody, let's move on. By doing that, oh, everybody has to let's move on. Sorry, Carolyn, didn't mean to trigger you that way. Let's move on. Then I'm it could be that I'm saying it's not okay to be uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_02A hundred percent. I mean, to me, I'm sending a message of we don't, we don't, we don't go there. Like, let's not go there. We don't go there. Yeah. And to me, you know, the EOS work can touch on really deep stuff for people. Oh, really deep stuff for people.
SPEAKER_00I mean, we're in the world of like capitalism and revenue and profit, and just the subject of money is whoo, baby, is and all the feelings that come with that.
SPEAKER_02All the feelings. The old material from our upbringing about all the things come right there.
SPEAKER_00Yep, they come right there. So we're we're ripe. Um, I've sometimes said we stir the pot, we open up cans of worms, and then we send them home with some homework. It's like, oh boy, woo! Ay, ay, yay. That's fine.
SPEAKER_02Right. Part of our job as coaches is to get comfortable being uncomfortable. That's our job.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Because that's what we're helping our clients do.
SPEAKER_00There's a um, we have a we have a poster that has spread like wildfire in uh in EOS, and it's the healthy rules of how to like be really healthy. And one of them is be comfortable with being uncomfortable. Absolutely. And you're opening this up for me in a way that I've, you know, I feel like I've looked at it from every way since Tuesday. And now I'm like, oh my gosh, now I found a different way to look at it. Of clearly, like I'm sharing these rules with the clients, but am I looking at those, especially that one, and saying, Am I comfortable with being uncomfortable?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, it's it's a it's a challenging place to be, even for me. And I spend a lot of time in my own discomfort. I mean, I have things going on in my personal life right now that are profoundly uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for sharing that.
SPEAKER_00It's it's something that I notice with coaches when we've dedicated our lives to this, and I don't know if I notice it just because that's the brain space where I notice it, but it is it is like it's not clockwork, but maybe calendar work. I don't know what it is. But coaches are like, I'm ready to grow, I'm ready to put myself into this, and then they have a personal experience that is really challenging. Yeah. Including me, including my own life. Sure. It's like these are not lives we've created, these are not professions we've chosen to go into being into lightly being a human being and mostly robot. We've gone into these going, I'm ready to be to feel the full range of human emotion and human absolutely.
SPEAKER_02And if we're willing, then there's more permission for the people we're serving to have that experience.
SPEAKER_00Yep. Yeah. I I woke up in the middle of the night last night worrying about something. Worrying. And it was uh it was something so silly. It was, how am I gonna catch my plane on Tuesday? I mean, it wasn't even the next day. I'm like, what? If you're gonna worry about something, can you worry about tomorrow? I just have to worry about. And I kind of had like a funny conversation with myself, and I had this this sweet message of, oh, it's possible that you're worrying about this because someone else in your world is worrying and you need the experience of worrying. What worrying feels like. Like, how's that as a possibility? So why don't we just like feel what it feels like to worry in the middle of the night about an airplane that I'm gonna take on Tuesday and I fly all the time and I've done it before, but like why am I worried? It could just be 'cause I'm worried. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And can I have compassion for the part of me that's worrying? Uh-huh. Right? Can I be gentle with that part?
SPEAKER_00Gentle with that part. Yeah. Even if it's yeah, uncomfortable to worry.
SPEAKER_02Even if it's uncomfortable, can I can I have compassion for that part?
SPEAKER_00Worrying. Worrying doesn't work, but worrying still occurs.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. 100%. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Carolyn, thank you for unfolding this um this episode of Coaching Magic so lovely. We what went into so many fun things. We've got create, promote, allow. Oh. Um, can I be uncomfortable for five seconds longer? Can I be okay with being uncomfortable? Co-creating the space. It's not just my job to create the space. Ah, we co-create it together. So many lovely nuggets from you. Um I do in a in about two minutes, I'm gonna ask you where people can find more Carolyn Friar Jones. But before we do that, I'm wondering if you would like to play a game. Sure.
SPEAKER_02I love a good game.
SPEAKER_00Okay, don't we though? I just love this method of coaching where most anything can be a game. Totally. You can do a game. Okay, here's the game. All right. I'm gonna take your book. Here it is. Okay. I'm going to ruffle through the pages like this. I'm gonna stop at a point. I'm gonna read the first sentence I see. I love it. And then you're just gonna say what comes up for you, and I'll share what comes up for me, and we'll see what we'll see what magic happens. Are you ready? I've never done this. I can't wait. Here we go. Here we go. There it is. Okay, it is page 192. Because sometimes I like to say it in case people want to go read for more context. Page 192. The chapter is chapter 28. Do you let your client think? And now I'm gonna find a sentence, and the sentence is, and there's no advice giving either. No, quote, may I offer you a thought of my own? End quote.
SPEAKER_02Well, you picked a great page, I must say. Because that that section of the book is really about the work of Nancy Klein, who's this incredible coach based in England who developed what is called the thinking environment work. And her work is radical, it's very different than what we do, what EOS coaches do. Her whole work is about allowing someone to think. Because we are becoming, in her words, a think for society. Well, what do you think about what I'm thinking? What do you think about what I should do? And her work is rigorous for a coach because the coach is only allowed to speak when the client gives permission. That is rigorous work. It's it's no joke. I do think sessions as a client with Nancy Klein. I highly recommend for any coach to learn more about her work. It's called the thinking environment work. She has a number of books. More Time to Think is a game changer. And her whole thing is, and this is a great one to to reflect on. How do we know? How do we know that what we're about to say is more important than what you're about to think?
SPEAKER_01And what's the answer? We don't. We don't. Yeah, we don't.
SPEAKER_00So the book is a a time. More time to think by Nancy Klein. By Nancy Klein.
SPEAKER_02Nancy Klein. And her work is called the Thinking Environment Work. There are practitioners of this work all over the world. It's remarkable. I highly recommend any coach finding out more about it. I don't do that work exclusively in my coaching, and it has made me a better coach.
SPEAKER_00I'm we're gonna make sure there's a link to that in the show notes for sure. Beautiful. I have just read your book twice, like I said, once for information, twice for transformation. So I know this chapter. I've read it twice. And one of the things that came up for me that was just came to me with a with a with a little bit of a zinger energy is when I am speaking, when I'm talking over the client, or when I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you're going off over there, or I I interject, you know, may I offer you a thought?
SPEAKER_02I am murdering their thoughts. I mean, that was shocking to me when Nancy Klein's like murdering and I thought, oh, I'm a murderer. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I am, yeah, it zinged me. So you said shocking. It like it came through with the energy it was intended to. Okay. Just even if, even if I am 1% more aware of that, even if I stay silent for five more seconds, even if I say, is there anything else? instead of, okay, I've got the problem now, let's work on the solution. That's beautiful. Is there anything else? I happened to have my coaching session this morning with my coach, and she asked me that about a thousand times. Is there anything else? I'm like, well, just this one thing. Is there anything else? Well, what about that thing? I mean, we just kept going. It's beautiful. I also got the experience of that this morning, which is lovely. So do you let your client think? The other thing that came up for me, which is kind of silly, which I love silly, because we're playing a game. I wrote a book called The Thinking Advantage. And it is full of words of how you can get people to think more. And of course, part of it is silence, you know, letting the silence do the heavy lifting. Um, but it is also so full of words. And it could have been ask one question and then shut up and listen. Or see see Nancy's book. Um but that that was also that was also fun. And it's now on my reading list for sure. Thank you. Thank you. Well, Carolyn, thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast. It's been fun to geek out on coaching with another coach. I'm so grateful for you and all that you've done for this beautiful creative profession of coaching. There's you have uh it's possible that you have fans that you don't even know about. Ah, we're all we're here in the stands, like, yay, doing our jazz hands for you, Carolyn, and all of your writings and your teachings. And so thank you from all of the fans that maybe you don't even know about.
SPEAKER_02I love it. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00Where can where can the coaches find more um about the school? How do they follow you? All the fun stuff.
SPEAKER_02Okay. So you can go to my website, Carolyn FreyerJones.com. Super easy, all one word. Um you can get the book. The book is available on Amazon, the Total Coaching Success Book. And if you like, you can follow me on Instagram. I do a lot of different fun stories when I'm called to about coaching. And that's CFJ Coaching.
SPEAKER_00CFJ coaching on Instagram. Awesome. Well, thank you. We'll have all of those links in the show notes too for everybody. But for now, Carolyn, until we until we meet again. Thank you so much for being on Coaching Magic and feeding us richly. Oh, it's a joy, and I so appreciate your work, Jill. Thank you. Thank you for playing with me today in the land of coaching magic. If you want more magic, I invite you to explore www.jillyoung.com. This is where you can see all the shenanigans I've created for you to expand your world of coaching. See you there. And remember, you are magic.