Justin Flores on Connecting Judo, Wrestling & Jiujitsu | EP 38

Justin Flores is a coach's coach — a University of Nebraska wrestler, elite judoka, and lifelong grappler who has spent decades blending judo, wrestling, and Brazilian jiujitsu. He's coached UFC champions, judged at CJI, and built J Flow Academy to help instructors integrate takedowns into their jiujitsu curriculums. In this conversation, we cover what makes grappling disciplines different and where they overlap, his path from competitor to educator, and much more.

Contacts for interviewee:

J. Flo Grappling Academy

www.jfloacademy.com 

Instagram @jflojudo

YouTube channel jflojudo

Topic Links:

John Will

https://www.redcatacademy.com.au/john_will.html

Fabio Santos

https://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/fabio-santos

Nate Keeve

https://www.ijf.org/judoka/41398

Woolf Barnato

https://www.blacksheepjiujitsu.com/#academy-overview

Beau Keeve

https://www.instagram.com/beau_keeve/

Willie Cahill

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willy_Cahill

Wally Jay

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wally_Jay

Rigan Machado

https://www.theacademybeverlyhills.com/instructors/rigan-machado/

Neil Adams

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Adams_(judoka)

Gokor Chivichyan

https://www.gokor.com/about-us/

Karo Parisyan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karo_Parisyan

Manny Gamburyan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manny_Gamburyan

Ronda Rousey

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronda_Rousey

Mikey Musumeci

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikey_Musumeci

CJI (Craig Jones Invitational)

https://www.cji2.com/

Lachlan Giles

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lachlan_Giles

Chris Haueter

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Haueter

Paddy "the Baddy” Pimblett

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddy_Pimblett

Dominick Cruz

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominick_Cruz

Keenan Cornelius

https://legionsandiego.com/instructors/keenan-cornelius/

Tom Callos

https://www.tomcallos.com/printmaking/martialarts

Felix Will

https://www.instagram.com/felixwillbjj/

Music “Disambiguation” by Robel Borja ht

This episode was directed and presented by Dave Meyer, editor & coproducer by Ryan Turner, producer & marketing Robbie Lockie, music kindly provided by Robel Borja.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

To me, like if I'm generalizing, wrestling is like I'm a hammer, you're a nail. Whereas judo is like I'm gonna pour this picture of water out, and the water is gonna gravitate towards the path of least resistance. So they're two completely separate ideologies if you take them from their concepts, but it's how they mold together. You could use both in the same exchange to me. You could take someone where they don't want to be taken, but also set traps.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Welcome to the Ageless Warrior Lab. I'm BJJ Blackbelt at Dirty Dozen member Dave Meyer, here to draw wisdom from Brazilian jiu-jitsu and the martial arts and explore how it applies to success in business, relationships, your long-term health, and making the most out of your life. What you're about to hear is a discussion I had with Justin JFLO Flores. Justin is a former U.S. National Judo champion, a Division I wrestler, an Olympic judo coach, and a BJJ black belt, best known for coaching UFC champions like Ronda Rousey and leading Team USA judo on the world stage. Justin has built a reputation as one of the top takedown specialists in combat sports, blending judo, wrestling, and jujitsu into a highly effective and widely taught system. He currently teaches out of Legion American Jiu Jitsu in San Diego with Keenan Cornelius and has online training tools at JFlowAcademy.com and a YouTube channel at JFlow Judo. We talk about his unique position in the grappling world as someone who has competed and trained in elite levels in judo and wrestling and is now bringing that knowledge to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. He has spent his career thinking about how these different disciplines relate to each other and inform each other rather than treating them as separate islands. So sit back and enjoy my conversation with Justin J.Flo Flores. Justin, thank you for taking the time to talk with me. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Of course. Thank you, David.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

So it was John Will in Australia who connected us, who's a good friend of mine. And John gave you the highest compliment he can give anyone, which is Dave, you gotta look at this guy. You gotta look at how he teaches. He is the coach's coach. And I agree. And everybody I talk to who looks at any of your stuff is just so impressed with the quality of your instructional material and your way of thinking. I'm really interested to dig into that today and explore that a little bit. I do just want to say we have some mutual friends. You got your black belt, I believe, under Fabio. Fabio Santos.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

I did, I did. Fabio Santos, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

So Fabio and I are friends with a tremendous amount of mutual respect. We competed against each other. We had two matches. I happened to win them both, but that doesn't tell the story. They were wars. They were amazing. In fact, the first match we had was at this night of individual fights in Irvine, where it was just these black belt super fights, and the winner of each fight got a plane ticket to Brazil to go to the world championship. And I happened to win, and that's how I got to the world championship, and I won a medal there. I don't know what the points were, but it was back and forth, back and forth. People said it was like the best jiu-jitsu fight they had ever seen. And we were, even at that time, the old guys. We were like in our late 30s. But anyway, I just respect Fabio so much. And I know he's out living in Utah posting pictures of skiing all the time. And I also think you know Nate Keeve.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Oh, yeah, of course. I coached him.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

So Nate trains with me and the guys down in Black Sheep with Wolf Barnardo up here and Nate's brother Bo. And I will certainly tell him that you said hi. And I'm just gonna guess that you might also know Willie Cahill.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Of course. I trained at Cahill's for five years, I think, when I was living up in the Bay Area in the early 2000s. Yeah, he was instrumental in my growth and development as far as just facilitating uh his dojo and allowing me to train there and then just keeping an open door policy. I never represented Willie, but I trained there for a good five years as well, San Jose State when I lived up in the Bay Area, but a great guy, mentor to many, Olympic coach in judo, just a wealth of knowledge, someone I truly admire and respect as far as a martial artist.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Ditto on all of that stuff. I've known him for decades, and I met him through Wally J, who was a coach of mine, and we used to all go to Camp Dunzanru up in the mountains, and I have trained on Willie's Matt many times. I haven't talked to him in a long time. He must be quite old now.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

In his 80s, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Yeah. This is a good reminder I should check in. But I just wanted to establish that because we've traveled in the same circles. I want to tell you, real quick, my first real experience with judo, because I've certainly been up to Willie's, and this was when I was starting with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, I brought Higgin Machado up there. Willie was completely into learning and sharing. Actually, he had Neil Adams there teaching armbars one time when we came up, and that was super fun to all be on the mat together. But the first time I really got a chance to stand toe-to-toe with a judoka was with Gokar, Chavishian. Yeah. And this was like 30 years ago. And Higgin had taken me to a school and said, Don't try to pull him to the ground. Try to beat him at judo, just to feel what judo is like. And my experience, uh I won't even say it was even remotely violent. I was just flying through the air. I mean, you do this to people, so I know you know this, but as the recipient of this, where I was trying not to let this happen, it got to the point that I didn't want to step forward because something bad would happen. Didn't want to step back, didn't want to not step because something bad would happen. Like literally everywhere I went, there would be something waiting for me. He was inviting me to just become off balance. And I got such an appreciation for the beauty of judo and made a mental note, I'll pull people to the ground as fast as possible in tournaments. Because I don't want that to happen. But I just want to say that is my impression of high-level judo. And when I watch your instructionals, the ease with which you move and the fluidity with which you move, I don't think people can really understand it unless they've ever walked onto a mat and done some rondore or whatever with someone who is really good in judo. So I just want to say you I love judo, and that was my introduction.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

Yeah, Go Car is amazing. I used to spend my Wednesday nights driving up to Hollywood to Heistan Judo and Martial Arts Academy, where Carl Parisian, Manny Gamburian, a lot of juniors that were my age, where I would get really great rounds, and there was always mutual respect between Gokor and myself and my father. We felt the love from the Armenian crew from day one. They came in the early 90s to the Southern California judo scene and really never looked back, but a huge group that were all well trained, different style than I was used to training as far as competing against, like a more Japanese style of judo. They had a little European flair to them. So it added depth to my perspective of what judo could look like, which is, as you notice, there's 200 countries in the world, 180 of them buy for an Olympic medal in judo, and you change styles with the region that you're in a little bit, which kind of associate with other grappling arts from those countries. So in Armenia, the wrestling is big. So you get a little bit of a different stylist. And I was from an era of judo. I only competed in the era where you can do leg grabs or fireman's carries or double legs. So there was a little bit more available as far as offensive takedowns you could use in the sport of judo back before 2010, where the rules shifted. Sambo and wrestling techniques that were all available within the sphere of judo added depth to the style of judo you could use. Nowadays it's a little bit more limited. So there's like 14 techniques you could kind of use in judo, which is kind of sad because the way it's evolved away from other grappling disciplines to preserve the art of judo, which I understand. But as far as like how judo has kind of sportified in a way to move away from what would be a little bit more useful in combat situations.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

Well, it's interesting that you say that, Justin, because I don't know judo well enough to perceive those differences, but I could certainly, it makes sense what you're saying. And I am in the world of Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and I definitely can perceive differences in sort of Brazilians just over from Brazil. It's it tends to be very relaxed. The kind of way you would train if you just were surfing and maybe you smoked some marijuana for a while and we're just flowing through things. And then you've got American styles where, especially where wrestlers have come in that tends to be, it's great jujitsu, tends to be a little bit more explosive, right? A little bit more athletic. I've certainly seen that. And for sure, I can tell very quickly when I'm grappling on the ground with someone who has judo experience because there's just a level of kind of sharpness or certainly of uh going for particular positions. I don't know. I can just feel when someone has come to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu from judo. So these are interesting little things. And you mentioned the evolution away from the fighting style. That's something that I a lot of the guests I've talked about because I'm talking to some people who started when I did some of the older crowd, the OGs. One of the big things everyone says when they talk about the evolution of jiu-jitsu, everyone's excited about it. We love it, leg attacks, very interesting. But there is a sense that it seems to be moving a little bit away from the practical application of take somebody down, get on top, smack them from the top, if they turn their back, choke them out. That was how it really was when I started learning. I can't say that's necessarily a good or bad thing. I just think it's important that people understand when they're training in martial art, what if it is highly applicable to the street, what if it is somewhat applicable, and what if it is maybe, yeah, this is kind of just the sport.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Yeah, like this fortification versus the martial art on its truest practical sense. This is all for self-defense or for combat. So once you add rules and time, those things seem to kind of isolate each martial art discipline on an island of its own rather than to see how they relate to each other, it's how they're different. So, kind of what I've done, I wrestled at a high level in the University of Nebraska. I was a high-level judoka with the best grapplers on planet earth in the sport of jujitsu. So I like to relate them to each other anywhere if they were on like a Venn diagram where each discipline has a circle and where they overlap. That's how I like to kind of teach the stuff that's the overlap, how these disciplines relate to each other, not how they're different.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

That is very interesting. And yes, you are unique in that you are at such a high level in so many different uh aspects of grappling, right? You've got the Western wrestling, you've got the judo, you've got the jujitsu. I think that's one of the things that people recognize makes you absolutely so unique. And of course, I'm sure you go well beyond it, but you're also seen as a particular specialist in takedowns and getting someone off their feet in in the way that you want. Just out of curiosity, because you're such a good athlete, and you you have such expertise in these areas of grappling. Were you ever tempted to or have you trained in serious punching kicking styles? And have you ever tried to integrate that personally? I know you've coached Ronda Rousey and a bunch of other MMA fighters, but what about your personal interest?

SPEAKER_01 11:19

So I remember I think I was 17, 16 or 17. And it was one of these experiences I had at Highestan with Carl Parigi, who was starting to make that transition from a really young age. He's, I think, a year and a half younger than me. He was already taking professional fights in Mexico. And I was talking to him, and I'm like, I'm kind of interested in that. You know, I wrestle, I do judo. I want to be able to maybe do that. And then he kicked me once in the leg right then, at that very moment, my thigh. And I wallowed in pain. And he's like, Justin, you're an artist. You're not a fighter. And I was like, Oh, thanks for pigeonholing me. But um, I took a lot of truth out of that, as far as you know. My goals were to be an Olympic medalist, MCAA champion, and the purity of those disciplines to me at the time I was competing and I had a body that was able to facilitate the highest level of movement and in competition. I kind of think that most of my best years were spent with that. You know, if I had to do it over again, I definitely think now that there's like an outlet for that, because in my prime, a lot of those sports were still seen as human cockfighting or barbaric, because I'm in my late 40s now. So, you know, knowing what I know now, how there's actually a platform to showcase skills in all combat sports together in MMA, that always had something that was like enticing to me. So that's why I gravitated a little bit towards coaching MMA, even though I have imposter syndrome or I did a lot more than I do now, where I'd go into these areas of MMA to help out, and I'd be like, I don't belong here. I never punched or kicked anyone in my life. So it was like one of these things where I had to get over my own not being confident enough to show where what I know would work in certain scenarios. So I never have espoused myself to be a striking coach or anyone that steps out of their lane as a coach. I really do think it's important to note that when you have a group of three coaches cornering an athlete to stay in your lane. And so I've successfully done that.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Well, that's admirable. And certainly it is like saying to a concert pianist, hey, have you ever thought about playing guitar? If you are really a great concert pianist, why wouldn't you want to fully develop that? Why would you want to divide yourself? And that's kind of what it reminds me of. But I just want to say for the record, we will never know, I guess, but I think you would have been a great uh striker because I think you're technical. And this is just my take is that there's a few things that make a good puncher kicker. Obviously, the ability to absorb pain is one of them, like when getting kicked in the leg, but it's footwork, getting your body to where it needs to be to deliver the strikes and getting it away from where it needs to not be. And to me, that if anything, you're a master of, you're a master of footwork and getting to where you need to be. So I think that would have translated very well into punching and kicking.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Yeah, I think from a really young age, footwork was important to me. And uh when I started Judeo, I thought I hit a triple, but I was really born on third base, and I'll explain that. From first grade on, I was on a jump roping team. And I would travel around the southwest region of the U.S. doing demonstrations at SeaWorld. I do competitions all over. And my brother, my sister, and I were on the San Diego sand skippers, which it's funny to say. But um, so learning how to jump rope, be light on your feet, understand timing, coordination, proprioception, these skills that are almost an afterthought sometimes when um you learn moves. So movement, understanding like timing and feel based on when the rope is going to come under your feet, you can start to almost time travel a little bit and understand where things are going to be. So a sense of distance and relation to your opponent, but also like understanding where to be, those were things that were innate. And those skills were developed from that was my first discipline of any kind of organized sport was being on a jump roping team. So having that kind of superpower to be able to move in and out of close proximity or bail out or angle off based on being loaded on the balls of my feet and understanding posture and how to have good cardio, all those things kind of related well with judo. So learning moves that relate to judo from understanding good footwork was a lot easier than for some. So when I related that into wrestling, which I started later in high school, there were kids that I was wrestling that had thousand matches, and I was going on to the mat for the first time in a singlet without a ghee. I was able to kind of start to adapt to the rules, to the lack of grips. And then I started to develop a game in wrestling, and then relatively quick I was able to be really successful applying skills I'd known from judo and then playing the game of wrestling and understanding when to use my weapons without having to totally and 100% conform to the rules of wrestling. I was able to use what I knew in judo and apply the right timing to the moves. So after a while, I did have to conform and have to develop uh hand fighting skills and how to hold people down and how to get up off the bottom, which are big parts of folk style, American style wrestling, which they're not in three-style, but they relate really well to MMA. So all of it put together led to a lot of success in grappling, which I could kind of piggyback off of my experience as a jump roper.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

That is so interesting that you say that. And of course, anyone who follows boxing training knows that for decades, I mean, boxers jump rope. And I guess it's for many of the same reasons. I mean, I would have just thought of it as I don't know, just conditioning and keeping yourself on the balls of your feet. But you're right, especially if you're doing anything complicated with the rope at all, there's a lot more to it, maybe that meets the eye. I've thought that an interesting way to watch either matches, whether it be MMA or judo or wrestling, would be to watch the screen but block out the upper body and just take a look at the feet. Because I think especially less skilled people, but even you know, me, when I watch something, I'm tending to watch the hands and watching the upper body because that's where there's action and where's the head going. And I think people tend to miss the importance of footwork. And if we just had videos where you could see only footwork, I think people might get switched on a little bit more to the importance of footwork in any sport.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Oh, totally. And but if you want to even add to that, I had a really good judo coach. He was an Olympic silver medalist and he was an NCAA All-American in wrestling. So he was one of the first hybrid athletes that I looked up to and had the opportunity to be coaching under him for about seven years. Jason Morris. When I was about 17, I went to his academy for the first time in upstate New York, and sure I had really good footwork and good movement, but he like stopped me in the middle of a round and he was like, Justin, stop. You have a lot of good movement, but you haven't made your opponent move. You're doing all these like movements everywhere, but there's not a lot of reaction or kazzushi or balance breaking that are associated with all these moves. So let's learn to chin the fat. Let's have each movement you do have a little bit more of a reason. So layering on top of my own movement is like, how am I gonna move my opponent with my movement to make them react, take extra steps? If I've gone with someone, they felt this. It feels like they're in the spin cycle of the washing machine where there's a pull, there's an angle cut, there's a push, there's an angle cut, there's a pull, there's a step backwards to pull you into empty space. So there's a lot of loss of balance where people are compensating constantly for stuff that they're just trying to survive on their feet with just me probing and collecting data on how they react to being moved. Do they hunker down? Do they move into the space naturally in a way where it's like, okay, this person gets the game? So I can collect a lot of data with these movements, whether it's gi or no gi based on the handles, whether I'm passing an elbow and nogi or have the sleeve and I'm pushing the elbow through and have my circle off and what they do. Do they face me? Do they bend over and hunker down? These things like I collect data on. And a lot of times when I'm in a round, I'm not attacking for much offense in the first minute or so. I'm collecting data. I understand like I have a system and I let that work itself out and I feel their reactions to things, and I can start to understand who they are. And that's when I looked at a lot of opponents I'd go against. I'd watch a little film or I'd be like, okay, I get they're righty, they bend over a little, they don't like when they're pulled. So here's what I want to do. But when I go through rounds with people, I understand that as it goes into the round, I'm looking to attack more and more as the round progresses. While people usually generally their energy levels dip. So I'm weathering a storm, but I'm also breaking their balance and getting them to move in positions that they're not used to. And it tells me a lot about my opponent. So I'm starting to associate moves with those movements, that correlated movements into the second, third, fourth minute.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Super interesting. What I'm hearing you saying is it's not just about your footwork, what you're doing with your feet. It's about your ability to create movement in your opponent so that you can then understand how are they going to react to these little polls. You mentioned Kazushi for people who don't study judo. Do you have a definition for Kazushi?

SPEAKER_01 20:49

A balance break.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Okay, a balance break. And what you're saying in terms of sort of encoding, that's interesting. I do the same thing on the ground. And a lot of that is especially because I'm older, I call it counterpunching a little bit while I encode what the person's doing. I say, okay, I see what they want to do. And then, like you say, a couple minutes in, I can now start to bring my will to bear. But the way you described that, that's exactly what it felt like what was happening to me with Go Kart, by the way. He was just letting me move around, and then just every step that I took was the wrong step to make. And I believe that would be the exact experience of working with you. Once you've sort of encoded and know what the person's doing, like there is no good because you have an answer for everything.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

That's what I think is so important about like a system of an approach, a methodology of what your best attributes are with your stance. And then you're always loaded for attacks when you're moving rather than move collecting, where it's like, I know these three moves and I'm gonna try on whether they're open or not. And that's what I feel like there's a big learning curve, and I'm speaking generally about the jiu-jitsu community and takedowns. And that's what I'm trying to lend my helping hand towards teaching athletes and instructors within the sphere of jiu-jitsu, because I do a straw pull with. Every seminar I do, and I have the 50 to 100 attendees raise their hand based on a few things. And a lot of times it's like, I'm sorry, but you've lived a lie. Let's try and have maybe a little identity crisis for a couple weeks. So I ask them, who here is right-handed? And 90% of the people raise their hand. And then I ask them, when you're standing in front of your opponent, which leg do you lead with? And 90% of them raise their hand when I say left hand. They lead with their left foot. A lot of times that leads you to being more of a move collector because your best attributes are behind you. As a right-handed person, you want your right hip, arm, and foot in front of you to be able to use moves offensively and defensively while you move rather than have your best attributes behind you. So a lot of people start to grunt and groan and they're like, well, I did four years of Muay Thai, so that's why. Or I'm in law enforcement because my gun is holstered on my right hip, or these things. And I'm like, okay, well, just be a lefty. Then if those are your natural tendencies, that's I'm actually right-handed, but I'm a lefty in everything, in judo wrestling, in all my stand-up grappling. Because from a young age, my dad made me and my brother kind of about a year into our judo journeys. Like, I'm gonna have you guys be lefties just because I want you to use the other sign of your brain a little more. I want you to be a little bit offbeat compared to most opponents. So we're south paws as far as our grappling. But I'm a righty in real life, so it's not impossible to kind of change who you are to fit that narrative of having a system and a blueprint that once you learn these kind of rules, I hate to say rules, you can break them. You can understand how they work both ways as a righty and lefty, and kind of have like a broader spectrum of movement that you could operate under for attacks rather than, well, I lead with my left foot and I'm right-handed, and I'm gonna try this random move. A lot of times there's not a second or third or fourth move that connect to it really well because you're just shooting these one-offs rather than having like a little bit more of an understanding of how these moves can work together in a system. This isn't like my rules. This is hundreds of years of meta of wrestling and judo, where that's something you kind of start with as a framework to operate under. And then things grow from there, and you could develop a move to your opposite side or tie-ups and different things that work well with your opposite leg in the lead, setting traps. As far as like getting a structure to get takedowns a little bit more progressed in the world of jujitsu, I think that's the best way to start is just start with that framework and blueprint where if you're righty lead with your right foot, if you're lefty lead with your left foot, and operate under that knowledge where you're gonna be a lot closer to your attacks, you're gonna be able to defend better because your strong side is the one that's in front. That's kind of how I start things and then move into moves. So movement, then moves.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

That is so interesting. I think Bruce Lee would have agreed with you on the strong side forward. And you're right. Anyone who's done any boxing or anything, you're taught to play with the jab, and then the real power is back here. And that probably does make sense for that. But I completely understand what you're saying about having your power side forward. Interesting what you're saying about training yourself to be a lefty when you're right-y. I mean, the advantage of someone who is a southpaw in any contact sport is they're used to fighting most people who are right-handed, and right-handed people don't get a lot of chances to fight people who are left-handed. So to what you were saying, if you're doing things a little bit different, you're used to the broadness of what how everyone else is doing it, but most of them are not used to what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

As I moved into a higher level of judo, I would say it's like 60-40 around the world as far as righties versus lefties. You'd get about 60% that are righties and 40% that are lefties, where I don't know, it's like Western civilization and culture, I don't know, religion, just based on right hand as the predominant side that people operate under from sure. That's just the way it works. So it's easy to teach when everyone's doing the same side when I travel and I or I teach my students here, but it's really 60-40 around the world at a higher level. But I would say from a beginner level, choose a side, develop those skills, and then you could start to develop your other side. I think foot sweeps to me, they're like armbars where you should be able to use both feet to foot sweep with, where you should be able to armbar both arms. You don't have to eyel, like Zoolander, I only go right. Where you should be able to develop skills for certain moves that work well both sides. Whereas like in Uchimata, you should probably develop one side really strong just based on your hip explosion, your dynamic rotation, how you pull someone off balance, those skills usually narrow into one side, at least one side's much better than the other.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

So you had mentioned a while back about training Brazilian jiu-jitsu people and some of the quirks of us BJJ guys. I want to talk to you about that just a little bit. First of all, everyone's always asking the question, do you like Ghee? Do you like no-gi training? I like them both. I think they're different. We could go on about that. But I'm wondering, personally, in terms of your training, do you have a preference if we just said, hey, let's get on the mat and roll around for fun or work takedowns for fun? Is your preference gi or a no-gi and why?

SPEAKER_01 27:22

Oh man, I was kind of like born in a gi where that was like my first discipline was judo. So I think of everything through how eight points of off balance work in a gi, all the front angle, lateral, back, and you know, that sphere of off-balance and how I was able to kind of extrapolate the adages from judo or tenets of off-balancing humans. I just related that into no gi. But to ask my preference, man, that's shifted over time and gone back and forth. And now it's just whatever. I like both a lot. And I think for me, if I was gonna go roll for an hour, I'd probably choose the gi, to be honest, just because there's more ways for me to submit someone. Like I just love lapels as far as chokes and sleeves for arm bars where things get a little slippery and dicey. So I'm looking for more control for no gi grappling. But uh that's really shifted over time. I think now that I'm in my late 40s, things slow down a little in the gi, especially when they hit the mat. There's more points of control, there's more tension, there's more grips, there's just a friction, an easier way to kind of control someone. So over time, I've really developed more of a fondness for my own pleasure to roll in a ghee, especially with someone that might I may be rolling with more of a beginner, where there's more threats for injury because of the fact that they're younger and explosive and heavy, and I'm relatively small and 73 kilos, 160 pounds, and 5'6. So I'm not a big guy. So being able to use those grips to control someone really helps out. But if I was gonna go to battle or have a good role with someone no-gi, I wouldn't complain. I would uh enjoy the process. So they both work really well together. And I I just did this like takedown instructor summit down here in San Diego. I had about 25 jujitsu academy owners from around the country come in for a week where I did this onboarding of like how to add depth to your curriculum to instructing instructors, and we did half gi, half no gi. Just I taught them how to do a lot of the movements in a gi and then the corresponding tie-ups and takedowns, how they can work in a similar fashion without the gi. But I think it's easier to teach people in a gi because there's a little safety net for takedowns where if I do a throw, I could hold on to my Uke, my partner, in a way where it's they're not gonna get injured. Whereas in no gi, like you're gonna lose control a lot of times because it's hard to hold on to them. So you have to either land on top of them or let go of them halfway through the throw to preserve your own balance. So it takes a little more time to learn some of those same skills with no gi. Because in judo, you could throw someone, lose your balance, get swept and rolled on top of, and you still won the match. Whereas in jujitsu, you want to be able to associate control and transitions to groundwork seamlessly. So it's hard to do that when you have a lot of momentum. That's how what I had to do in folk-style wrestling. I remember when I was a young butting wrestler, I knew how to throw people, but controlling them after the fact was difficult. I'd lose a lot of scrambles because I'd throw someone and then they would bite off and then roll me through or scramble out and I'd get no points for a beautiful big throw. So it's like I had to learn over time how do I relinquish a tie-up at the end of the throw to post out my forearm, or to be able to follow through by culling to the far side after a throw, not that stay on the near side and lose my balance. So it took some time and experience to be able to understand the nuances that come in these gray areas where something like judo, you slam them, that's the hard part, it's over. You won. So an MMA grappling, jujitsu, wrestling, all of these ask for control after the takedown. So that took some time and energy to learn the transitions that you can associate with these takedowns that lead to either good control or submissions right away.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

I share exactly what you said with the gi. I love ghee, no gi, it's great, but I've actually had more competitive success without a gi. And I think there's some reasons for that. But I think the gi for me, because there's just more opportunities, more things, more complexity, all the chokes, better grips for upending people, just more interesting to me. And because I can slow things down, I'm 63 years old. Sometimes I just want to cook somebody for a little while.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

And it's easy for me to cook them once I've gotten on top of them if I've got a few handles and things like that. But you mentioned the concept of having to adjust mid-throw to the oncoming control position. That's something that I talk about a lot in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu too. I call it oversweeping. I see people who do a sweep, so there's something that they've done successfully that has caused an off-balancing, and now the turnover is happening, but they're continuing to do the same thing that got the sweep going. And it's like they're trying to sweep the person into the ground, and then the person hits the ground, hits a scramble, and they don't get the control position they wanted. And I always tell students, like, find that tipping point, that point of no return where gravity is doing the rest of the work for you now. Forget about everything you did to start that happening because gravity has taken over. And now while they're falling, you're running to your next control position, so you can meet them there. And failure to do that I call oversweeping. I've never heard it said, but you could call it overthrowing too. Like in judo, they're both feet off the ground. Whether you end up getting rolled and they end up on the mount for you, that's epon. You won. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

And I think there's a sense of familiarity with when to relinquish control to move to a different position where you're more balanced. So you have to almost make those trial and error mistakes and learn from those. It's hard to just use your words as a coach or instructor to teach that. So it's like go through the process, fail, and uh understand that familiar moment when they're off balance, and you bail on your underhook, or you're able to bail on your overhook, or you're able to kind of put your second foot back down to the mat rather than continue your hurai goshi or foot sweep, and then whoa, I'm too off balance to come back and land on top or be on top or control. So those things take time and discipline to be able to routinely practice those things in a way where if you watch a Georgian judoka from the country of Georgia and upstate, it's uh highly different than a Japanese-style judoka where a lot of Japanese judoka roll through on all their throws. It ensures the fact that your opponent will, their whole back will roll to the mat when you throw them with a throw. If you roll over them, because if you throw with the throw and then you roll to your own back doing like a forward ukemi, whether it's a Seunagi or a Uchimada, whatever, it ensures your opponent will either go from his side to his back all the way to his other side, which gets a higher score. But if you watch Georgians, they remained on one foot, they stay balanced. They almost have this methodology where it's like fall down after your opponent or not at all to be able to remain on top. So I've had to learn both and be able to kind of self-censor my off balance when I'm transitioning to a jujitsu spar session over a judo sparring session, where I could if we're doing a fun randori, I'll probably roll over you and we'll both laugh and whatever, it's all good. But if it's a jujitsu roll, the work's not done. I gotta get to work once the takedowns over. Yeah, in some sense, the work is just starting. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

So for again, BJJ practitioners who are looking at takedowns, do you think that wrestling takedowns might be more applicable or a better first focus than judo throws, given the rules of jujitsu where somebody can pull to the guard as long as they have a grip on your call or so I'm just thinking as a judoka, you might not get the opportunity to spend very much time standing if the moment someone connects up with you, they're immediately putting a foot on the hip and either just pulling you to the guard or trying for some pathetic tomonagi or something, but it gets them to the ground as opposed to the ability to, before anyone's grab, close the distance in a way as a wrestler would, as a freestyle wrestler would. Do you have any thoughts on where a Brazilian competitor should be putting their initial focus when it comes to takedowns?

SPEAKER_01 35:41

I think both are great. I mean, being able to attack from the open space is something that you can't do in judo. You used to be able to be able to shoot double legs from space as far as a blast double or a single leg takedown. So I understand that having to be able to create your own set of moves from the outside and then from the inside with grips, with tie-ups, and those can differentiate, you kind of oscillate between systems. If you're on the outside and you're faking and you're getting them to react or not react, you take your shot. And I think as we all age, father time always wins, and mitigating any injuries that happen is of the utmost importance. So a lot of times when you level change and shoot underneath people, you have to be wary of things that are consequences of that. Where you put yourself underneath someone, you're gonna get the brunt of their reaction on top of you. So being able to angle out and circle and not stay underneath people is important. So it's kind of the secondary things that follow those shots that are important because a lot of shots lead to successful takedowns. I was a low single artist at one point in my career. I'd shot a high C really well, sweep singles when I had really good knees. But as those knees started to go, I had to kind of change my style where I couldn't be sliding in underneath people and feeling all their weight on top of me when they would react as sprawls would happen, or guillotines, or tent banger chokes, or just squeezes, crucifixes, all these things that can happen when if you wait underneath someone. So it's really what you do once you're in. So a great double, you should be met with a good knee slide, cut the corner, capitalize rather than I got my double. Now I'm like, I'm here, now what? So practicing your transitions and level changes to getting in, but then what? We got to be pretty quick about not staying underneath people because someone sprawls, there goes your shoulder or your neck, or you hit a blast double and your base hits their chest, there's a lot of impact on the neck. So I don't like to really go underneath people in that fashion anymore. I like more like knee pulls or elbow passes to an angle to get a leg rather than like shooting underneath people, where that's a big part of the game, and it's one of the only successful ways you could take someone down from space. But as you age, just understand there's a lot of negative ramifications that could happen when you're underneath people. You'll feel it. You probably understand what I'm saying. Or understanding both. You could shoot your way into a tie-up and then have a good underhook and use foot sweeps and go between wrestling and judo with some basic understanding of where your weight distribution is. If your front foot has more weight on it, you're probably going to be grabbing legs and shooting. If your back foot has more weight on it, it leaves you enough dexterity with your lead leg to attack with foot sweeps, with reaping, tripping, hooking, sweeping techniques. So your posture matters from that space where you're like at a zone one, where you're entangled in your upper body, where you could definitely posture up a little more. It leaves you some more weaponry than just your arms to shoot underneath someone.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

Yeah, you make a good point that what might be an ideal approach, given a rule set, can change depending upon what's the age of the athlete and what kind of punishment do you want to put your body into. I would just tell you I've had great success in jujitsu with gi and no gi shooting for low singles from space, as you say, and either getting them and just dropping the person to the ground, or immediately expecting that the person's just gonna step back, maybe I just missed the foot, and then I sit onto my butt and I'm like, okay, I'm on my butt, I'm safe. Or they sprawl and I kind of slide in for a half guard and I'm happy. And I'll always have the underhook when that happens. So I to me that feels pretty safe. But the other thing you're talking about when you talk about the damage you take when you're shooting in like that, and you alluded to it with your knees, is you have you can take some heavy pounding of your knee into the mat. And so I could see why, especially as you're aging, you might want to stay away from that. Do you think the athletes that come to you have what seem to you, as a takedown expert, as bad habits generally?

SPEAKER_01 39:54

I would say there's a level of awkwardness sometimes, where their instincts are to bring their butt closer to the mat rather than be lighter on their feet sometimes, just based on how much time they've spent in guard play or just grounded. So their first instincts are to like change levels downward, no matter what happens. If I were to fake, that's their reaction. Whether I'm gonna explode in, that's their reaction, or they're gonna put sweep, that's their reaction. So I would say working through some of that in a way where you could utilize the movements of your opponent, what they're doing, to kind of set traps instead of just defend at all costs. So it's about getting okay being on your toes and on your heels and on your toes and on your heels rather than just flat booted. I would say also which leg is in the lead is sometimes questionable for me. Sometimes high-level jujitsu competitors or athletes, they have a move over here, a move over there, their left foot's forward, their right foot's forward. There's no method to the madness, it's just like they're athletic and it's worked in the past, so it gets them the opportunities they need to take it to the ground, which is fine, but they're gonna hit a ceiling at some point. If they don't have like a second or third move, a lot of times they're just left with what they're left with, and sometimes that's not the best. So it's hard to adapt and be malleable sometimes to a longer exchange on their feet. So I've worked with all shapes and sizes as far as grappl in the jujitsu space, and everyone has different strengths. So if the strength is the leg lock game, a lot of times athletes are going to be a little bit more okay getting taken down and foot swept, or because they could start to attach themselves to my legs or their opponent's legs, but they're taking the brunt of those falls still. So over time, they're looking for what happens based on them losing the standing exchange for their win. But you know, there's gonna be an impact at some point that they're not gonna be able to walk away from. So it's like becoming a little more well-rounded is okay, and I'm okay with that. I think wrestling is a great place to start as far as the skills you're developing, the mindset, being able to almost stand where your opponent is standing, if that makes sense, rather than to pull them and drag them and move them into spaces they're uncomfortable with. To me, like if I'm generalizing, wrestling is like I'm a hammer, you're a nail. Whereas judo is like I'm gonna pour this pitch of water out, and the water is gonna gravitate towards the path of least resistance. So they're two completely separate ideologies if you take them from their like concepts, but it's how they mold together. You could use both in the same exchange to me. You could take someone where they don't want to be taken, but also set traps.

SPEAKER_00 42:51

Yeah, it's super, super interesting. Of course, Higgin Machado, my coach, was always interested in wrestling, and we were going to wrestling classes and stuff like that. He really wanted to expand his grappling knowledge. But in terms of Brazilian jujitsu, like in the early 1990s, the concept of takedown was just get on the ground. Like just do whatever it takes to get on the ground, because once we get on the ground, we're gonna be fine. And of course, that was true because a lot of other people weren't good grapplers at that time. I don't think that's true anymore that you can just say, oh, you don't need to learn a takedown, just get thrown, do whatever, end up on the ground, everything's gonna work out great. Yeah, that depends on with who. I'm just wondering, do you have any reactions to rule sets that allow people to just sit to the ground? I mean, forget about standing. Because you mentioned there are people who are especially into a leg game, they just want to get on the ground, they want to attach to your legs. Well, a good way to do that is just sit down and start scooting forward. Do you have any thoughts about that style that just completely says, no, I'm forget about takedowns, I'm just gonna sit on the ground and scoot my butt forward.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

Well, taking a step back and not letting my personal biases come into play. Play as far as being objective, I think that's a great approach. I mean, I don't know if I'm gonna get heat from it, but I think if judo you were allowed to do that, or if you were allowed to just bring it to the ground without having to throw people, it would have evolved into jujitsu. It's the way to mitigate a lot of hard work and do the thing that might be the easiest path to get what you want. And that's why jujitsu is jujitsu. You're looking for the submission in a way where it causes you the least amount of damage. So why not start in a place that you're already four-tenths the way there? But as things evolve, as they do, a lot of people that are great guard passers or don't fall into those easy traps, you have to bring them down in a way where you're at least off-balancing them to get to your guard play that can open up an avenue for submission or for a control position. So I think even bridging the gap and learning a little bit about Kazushi balance breaking or angles to be able to get to a good shin to shin that can get them off balance, and you could wrestle up and take some kind of other approach that doesn't just like have me in soup line guard and my feet are waving and I'm just flat on my back, basically pinned with no one on top of me. I think that can evolve. And it has evolved, I think. Maybe Mikey Musamechi and some of these higher-level athletes that just do it and they still win, but they're very few and far between. And even he's reached out to me wanting to learn takedowns. So I have judged jujitsu at the highest level at CJI one and two. And I did like a whole camp where for 10 weeks prior to each event, me and the other judges would go through matches and give our scorecards and explain why based on the rule set of CJI. And a lot of times we'd watch IBJ JF matches, we would watch ADCC matches, we'd watch Who's Number One matches, we'd watch Polaris matches, and we would judge them under our rule set. And a lot of times the winner is different based on our rule set and what happened on that mat in those different rule sets. So it really does depend on the rule set. In IBJJF, you're actually stalling if you step back out of someone who pulls guard. So it's like you got to play that game if you're gonna enter into that event. So with CJI, at least the way the rules were, you're supposed to have a point of connection before you pull guard. So it at least gives itself the opportunity to make an adjustment for the person who's getting the guard pulled on them to angle off, to arm drag, to snap the head, to do things that can keep the action going, where it's not just like me sitting straight down. And those rules weren't a hundred percent enforced, as there's a lot of people who just sat straight down, which I had to judge plenty of those matches where it was something that I had to learn to do along the road of the learning how to judge. Because I honestly, to be honest, I've only been to three jujitsu events in my life where I was just there. I've never competed in jujitsu, so it was uh not second nature to me to be able to take away my dozens of years of wrestling and judo or MMA grappling that I've been experienced firsthand, either in the corner or on the mat, to be able to like, okay, this is its own separate discipline of artistry. I have to accept that and I have to get over my own biases where I would be like, that's what? Wow, and then I have to judge the winner based on attacks from these positions that I would never really be in, based on like, oh, I had the athlete that was on their feet trying to pass. Were they more active? Did they find better angles? Were they closer to passing? Or was the person underneath making more valid attacks so the top person had to react in ways that looked like they were a threat? This is like a fine line to judge. There's no scoring. It's like I have to really uh hone my senses into these little particulars of man that are in guard play that I'm not well versed in, but I feel like I'm proud of the job I did in short term, how I was able to at least pick winners that I felt were with a few maybe small exceptions, I'm not infallibles. I really didn't let my biases get in the way who I thought won based on their style. It was what happened on the mat. Like who won this exchange and was that a bigger threat than the exchange of the person passing?

SPEAKER_00 48:25

I'm sure you did a great job, and it sounds like you really came to it with integrity and were trying to, like you say, bring not necessarily your biases, but to understand what are the rule sets, what are the goals of the competition and do that. I think for me, if I were in that situation, the one challenge would be if I'm needing to judge things where I'm not super familiar. Like I see their legs are entangled, but is that guy really under threat? Because I don't spend as much time on the leg stuff. I'm a little bit old school. I mean, I've been through it, like everybody's been through it, but I could look at something and say, I think that guy's really in danger. And some of my good leg locker friends would say, Not even close. And how would I know the difference? I mean, it look looks like I'm really close to it. He'll look to me.

SPEAKER_01 49:09

I mean, so uh it's like who has inside position? How much is the base grimacing? These things like that. How much there's a reaction of herky jerkiness going on by the person that is getting the leg lock attempted on them. So those are like just little cues that I was able to kind of like learn more and more because I've been leglocked plenty. Like, I mean, by the best. So my my foray into leg lock training is how not to get leglocked. 100%. So it was like really hard to distinguish some of those exchanges where someone is getting work done on them and then they're counterattacking by reaching back and looking for an ankle and one person's heel hooking, and then they're in this battle squeezing and making faces, both of them, to show that they're almost there, and it's like then the match ends, and I have to judge that. And it's like, oh boy.

SPEAKER_00 50:00

Well, the way I look at that is maybe this is overstating it, but because I'm as a competitor, shame on you if you didn't finish the guy. If it's going to the judges, you can't complain because your job was to finish the person. And if you didn't, I've certainly had matches where I don't think that it was judged the way I would have judged it.

SPEAKER_01 50:19

We all have to.

SPEAKER_00 50:20

I don't think it was any I don't think it was intentional bias, but I just look at that and say, well, you should have tapped the guy out. You know, shouldn't have let it go to the judges.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

I've always lived with that mantra in my head, like don't leave it to the judges. Do everything you can in the moment to end it. I was notorious as a competitor. When I was winning, I would still be moving forward. And I had so many coaches that would pull their hair out. Always go for the kill. Like even when you're winning, it's like part of the judo spirit that I came up under. Even if I have like a small score, I'm not gonna play the game and look busy and run around the mat and be elusive. It was more like keep aiming for what's the goal here is three pump. For a choke, armbar, pin, a throw. So, you know, if it goes down to the mat, I'm doing anything in my power to end it. If I'm on my feet, I'm doing anything in my power to end it. And in wrestling, I took that same approach. It was like, I want to do what's in my power to end the match in my favor, rather than like, oh, I'm up by a point. Let's see, oh, I got called for sewing. Now I'm criteria, I just lost. So it's like, what? Uh yeah, I really want to, if it's under my power, I want to do everything I can to win by ending the match with like a sudden victory, whatever that is, submission or a throw.

SPEAKER_00 51:28

Justin, I so used to be that way. And then at some point I started like, I got points here, let's just cruise it out. I have another match. And then recently, in a world championship, it was no gi. I sat down or to my guard, whatever, I took the person down, snatched like a low single off of my own, immediately past this guard, was up by five points, and started to just look at the time, cruise. I figure the guy was stronger than me, and I frittered it away. They like called me and then they gave them some points. I'm like, I'm still up by three. And in the last couple seconds, that guy exploded and I don't know if it was an advantage or something. He was great. I don't mean to take that away from him, but you would have been ashamed of me. I was ashamed of myself. And I decided like never again. I'm okay to lose, but not lose like that, where I just was like trying to time my stalling to get us across the finish line. It's the exact opposite of the competitive and martial spirit that you're talking about, which is I don't care if I'm up by 10 points, I'm here to end this fight. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:32

So and that's hard to transfer as a coach because I've coached and sat in the chair for many athletes who I'm yelling at them to circle when they're winning instead of move forward and look for the kill. So uh I get both sides of it. Yeah. It's a tough one to mitigate like an athlete's mindset. It's a delicate thing. So I don't want to get in their way too much. Things are working, let them cook. But sometimes if I could step in and say a few words that's gonna help them get to the finish line winning, sometimes it is take a stall cold, sometimes it is break grips, sometimes it is circle and move around rather than engage. But yeah, I I get it. It's a tough one, man.

SPEAKER_00 53:11

You want the win. At the end, you want the win. But yeah, I just I don't yeah, I'm never gonna do that to myself again. Yeah. So you talk about systems, which I think is so unique and what's so great about your style of approaching. And I'm wondering social media right now. I don't spend a lot of time on Instagram. I do a bit because of the podcast now, because sort of I need to. But man, everybody I know is just flipping through, flipping through it, and they're seeing uh endless uh really cool new moves, and I've seen some of them too. And I look at that and I say, Oh, that looks cool. Is it could that actually work? But what it strikes me as it's like cherries. Like, here's a cherry, there's a cherry, and it is the opposite of a systematic approach, like, oh, that's a cool move. I think I'm gonna try that cool move. Oh, that's a cool move. Forgetting about whether the move actually could even work or someone is just making it look good, and that's why it's getting lots of views. Do you have any thought on this Instagram or TikTok culture? Is it degrading young people's ability to understand systems in favor of move bites? I guess I would call it, like sound bites.

SPEAKER_01 54:13

No, totally. And I guess I'm I can get lumped into both as far as what I've posted in the past, like a cool six-second thing of this random viral movement that people then want to go try without the context of the years and layers of work that it, you know, to make that move available. But I do think it's unique and creative in a way where it leads to some evolution. People see these things and they try these things and they keep an open mind that you don't have to stay compartmentalized in a box of these like rigid systems of only these moves work. But on the counter side of that, anytime I post a long form about the systems and how the basic foundations need to be built upon by doing your 10,000 hours of X, Y, and Z to be able to build up to these things, there's like no views on those. It gets six views.

SPEAKER_00 55:09

I knew you were gonna say that. I was I just were actually just about to release an interview with Lachlan Giles, who said the exact same thing. If you really try to put real good stuff out there, it's just like, yep, no one's gonna watch it. It's not flashy.

SPEAKER_01 55:22

But I think the people who are interested in becoming more well-bursed and better instructors or just more well-rounded grapplers, they're willing to pay money for that long form content. So I think it's balancing those two things out. It's like finding the foothold in both those spaces where I have a large Instagram account. A lot of times I post things that are 15 seconds or less that highlight and showcase some unique skills. And then on my YouTube, I have like 20-minute long form videos where it's like I'll work with one athlete or a class, and we'll go through very meticulous movements and long-winded explanations and then trial and error of the people doing it, and then evolving and doing it better by the end. And to me, that's like the growth that's gonna really develop a grappler. And my YouTube has like uh a hundred thousand subscribers, and my Instagram has like almost seven hundred thousand subscribers. So it's like it's a tough one, but I understand. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:21

Well, that makes sense, and then we'll link to all of your channels in the show notes as well. But just calling it out here, you also have JFLO Academy.

SPEAKER_01 56:28

Yes, yeah, that's paid content. So about six years ago, I created a platform, JFLO Academy. It has maybe 25 different series on the platform, both Gia No Gi. So these are like chronological series where one is like powerful punnels where you're in an over and underhook, and all the techniques and movements that can emanate from having your horns locked in an underhook and an overhook. And then another one is like awesome ashiwaza, where it goes from like your basic solo drills that you could do by yourself all the way up through 30 different techniques that apply from these foundational movements. So there's like 25 to 30 series on that platform, and then I built it out in a way where there's instructor training on there, where if you do the drop down, you can learn more about that. I have about 40 instructors now in this affiliate network. So it's really working with instructors and adding depth to the lesson planning and curriculum to foolproof takedowns in a way that are seamlessly integrated into the curriculums of these instructors' gyms that can start to maybe like help the culture of jujitsu move into a space where these modalities from Judon wrestling are a little bit more palatable for people in a way where it's not just random one move and then we're rolling live. Here's a standing move, and now we're rolling live. It's like during your warmups, you could integrate these specific drills. You could do falling breakfalls that make it fun and have these techniques where one move relates to four moves. So you're learning one move, but you're learning really four or five moves with those movements. So you're gonna start to be able to hopefully develop students that understand this from a young age, and then that information is spreading across generations, not just kind of lives and buys with the one athlete I'm coaching. And that's what the shift I made about eight or nine months ago. I went to Panama to get a full-body stem cell treatment, and I was in a lot of pain. Neck, knees, just all these infusions. I had 27 shots, and I took a step back and I'm like, hey, how am I gonna shift what I'm doing for the long term? And uh I kind of made that decision and wrote down a vision board and have done all the necessary work to make it happen as far as like hiring the right people and creating a network of like-minded humans that are involved in this that want to be able to show their students a new skill set without injury. That's important because falling weight is probably the greatest hindrance to your body's health. So, how do we mitigate injuries? That's a big component of what I'm doing is making this accessible to all ages, all levels, so to really mitigate any injuries within the process. That's like longevity is key. I want to be on the mat until I'm done with this planet. So I want to be able to continuously adapt and improvise to my ailing body.

SPEAKER_00 59:18

I hear you. I mean, we are in contact sports. I have this thing I say, die with no cartilage left, because that means that's fun you didn't have. But most people are spending it way too fast. Yeah. Right. And so they're gonna be 60, 70, 80, and they're gonna be limping around. And we certainly don't want that. Most of us got into martial arts for the life-affirming aspect of it or self-defense or whatever. We don't want it to be the thing that brings us down in the end. I hope the treatments went well in Panama. And I do every three months something I call my mission days, where I actually go somewhere off the grid, no cell coverage, and I just sit with a journal and I just ask myself, am I happy with my life? What am I doing? I actually run a nonprofit organization that works animal welfare. So I think, am I being effective in that? But I also go through personal stuff and ask myself, like, Am I happy with the direction my body's going? Or what do I think the Dave 10 years from now is gonna really wish the Dave today would be doing differently? And always the answer that comes up in my mind is, hey man, take care of your body. Like I gotta have to live in this body for a while. So like take care of your joints, don't be so abusive. And to me, a lot of that means just don't maybe be as aggressive in your training, even though it's fun to smash people and stuff. You've got to adapt to the body you have. Definitely. Chris Howder, who you may know, that's kind of his thing is deal with the body you have, not the body you had or you want. And that's a difficult thing for us to acknowledge to modulate our training on that. But I guess it is the highest level of judo. It is the highest level of jujitsu, which is all about adapting, right? And to just the same way you don't force a technique, which you were saying before, not force a particular style, like deal with the body you have today and make it last. Definitely I think that has to be a very intentional practice though. It does, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:04

And I like what you do every three months where you go out and you kind of center your chi, so to speak. I do a lot of flying and I do a lot of travel for the work I do. So I get on these long flights, I'll bust out my journal, you know, that and I'll really try and organize my thoughts in a way where I feel good about what I'm doing. I understand the long-term approach. I'm not missing any of my kids' functions, but also I'm not letting that get in the way of what the mission statement is. I want to be available from 3 p.m. on every day. That's the goal. So I really do have to organize my time efficiently, whether it's with students, with virtual lessons I'm giving or seminars. So I really want to know that I'm doing the right things with my body, with my time, with my energy. So being highly motivated, but also organized. And that was a skill I had to learn when I was competing at the highest levels of judo and wrestling, everything revolved around my training. So now it's a little bit different where I have more people to think of and a mission statement to think of that's greater than my own personal desires sometimes. So you mentioned you have kids, are they training as well? Yeah, so my son is nine years old. He's kind of seen what I do since he was born. He's walked out into my little garage flight club where I have like a 20 by 20 mat space. That's pretty nice. And he's seen me train with the likes of Patty the Batty or Dominic Cruz or Ronda Rousey, and who's always just at arm's length seeing this, you know, what his dad does. And then I invited him to do judo and wrestling, but he didn't really take to it at about six years old, maybe seven. And then about six months ago, my brother out of nowhere decided to compete for the first time in judo in about 21 years. And uh he lost like 30 pounds in a couple of months and was training hard. He just opened up a judo club down here in San Diego, which is really successful. But he went and competed, and I was in Japan, and then I got home and he let me know the day before the competition, so we went up as a family, and it was a pretty big tournament. And uh, I coached my brother, and my son watched, and he was just in awe of the whole experience of just like he'd watch Cobra Kai, so he kind of like, you know, the martial arts thing as far as like in an entertainment value, but also saw like okay, combat in a tournament, and that's my uncle, and he's amazing. Wow! And from then on, he leaps, eats, dreams judo. And it's great because it wasn't me pushing him into it. It was like it was almost inception where his motivation emanates from within rather than an external source, which I've coached all athletes of all levels, and I know that the best indicator of success is how motivated are you? Is it someone else that's leading this charge or is it you? And those are things I had to grapple with myself at a younger age, where it was just for me, what am I doing? This is all I know. Do I want to do this? But for my son, that's the most important thing. That I didn't really push him into the deep end. I might have led him to the shallow end here and there, but it wasn't ever a thing that my self-worth was going to be dictated through his expression of martial arts. I was never gonna be one of those stage dads. So I'm just thankful that that's the case. And now, man, he is he's really into it, man. We have a session today in the garage before he has a baseball game. Tomorrow night I'm taking him down to Power for a judo session with my brother's dojo, where they have about 120 kids. So it's like, man, his first tournament's in two weeks. So I'm excited at the prospects of him really starting this journey. And he's really good, man. He's technical and he gets it. And it's just something that I'm really excited about. It really, man, it makes me get to see you know, the hairs on my arms stand up when I think about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:54

That is wonderful. You open the door, but they got to walk through it. John Will did the same thing with his son Felix. Felix never wanted to train, and then I don't know how old he was, 16 or something, where he said, I think I'll get onto the mat, and now he's just like a monster, black belt in jujitsu, lives, eats, and breathes it, teaches. And I hope that's what happens with your son too. It'll be what it'll be. But congratulations on that. And I hope he does really well in his tournament.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:16

Oh, I hope so too.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:17

Justin, just before I let you go, I don't know that a lot of people know that you are, correct me if I'm wrong, you studied fine arts, you were a graphic artist. You are an artist, not just a martial artist, but you're actually a visual artist. I don't know how much of that you still do. But does that tie in at all to how you think about martial arts? Do you think of techniques? I don't know, is is there a visual component to? Is there some interesting connection between your visual artistry and your martial artistry? Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:45

Like I think by nature I'm a little bit of a perfectionist. So if something's not right, I do it something's right. And uh there's a visual acuity to it in both senses, whether it's me drawing something or illustrator or photoshopping. shop where there's balance, there's the right symmetry, there's an understanding of resilience and components that make it work in a way where it's pleasurable to the senses. And I think the way I like to utilize my movement is in a similar fashion where if I'm doing a throw and it feels wrong, I gotta do it again and again and again until it feels right, depending on my opponent, my partner. And I'm always making these adjustments that I don't know if I'm ever truly happy with the performance or the throw or the movements. But that's me like chasing the dragon. So timing and feel and understanding of how to make it work in an artistic way has always been a part of my style of judo and wrestling. It wasn't about just getting the job done and winning the match. It was like how did I do it? There's still stuff to work on even though I won, I was sloppy in this area. I was off balance here. There's things that like make me try and like narrow into the truth which is something that looks just beautiful and aesthetically pleasing. And that's something that I think has like come out in my movement when I teach or when I spar or when I've competed that is just part of me as an artist. So fluidity and the the understanding of what perfection is attained seems like it's effortless. Because with all things that work with movement is you want to be able to have help with these moves you do by your opponent. How do we trick them into helping you? And the struggle is persistent as far as like trying to make it happen in a perfect way that it just it looks like something that's almost impossible to do. But I really want to make it in a way where you know Keenan Cornelius said it once to me he's like I don't know if people realize it but you make things look so easy they feel like they can do that. And I'm like good because that's the goal. I want people to feel like they could do this and work on it and have it happen in a way where it's due to the amount of time you spent and feeling it out and failing and those like trials and tribulations that happen in between. Keenan's a good friend of mine and we've spent a lot of time sweating and bleeding together.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:06

Good time and I know his stepdad Tom Callas very well. Yeah. Well I need to let you go I think that what you're putting out into the world I'm sure in terms of your one-on-one instruction but definitely in terms of the stuff that's out there that's visible to millions is just above top notch. It's fantastic and it's been such a pleasure to meet you. I'll make sure if I'm down in San Diego to come over, tap you on the shoulder at some point.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:28

Please do.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:29

And I just thank you for all that you're giving to the grappling arts. You've made such a difference to so many people when I mentioned to some of my really high level training partners I was going to talk to you they're like oh my gosh he's made such a difference in my takedown game. So thank you and I look forward to connecting again soon. Any time david thank you so much for having me. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Justin Flores. You can check out his materials online. His YouTube channel is JFlowJudo and his website is jflowacademy.com. If you're watching this on YouTube please do leave a comment and let me know what you think. And clicking like and sharing is always appreciated. I will be back next week with more lessons from the lab. And until then keep developing your strength, your wisdom and go out and do good in the world.