The Ex Appeal Podcast
Host Miriam Katz interviews every person she has ever been romantic with on any level, from a 5th grade pizza date to an orthodox rabbi to a stripper she once hooked up with. Every. Single. Person.
The Ex Appeal Podcast
"I'm Not Ready" - Dating Post-Divorce
For this podcast, host Miriam Katz will interview every person she has ever been romantic with on any level (!!). In this episode, she talks to Chad about dating post-divorce, dating during Covid, and dating on mushrooms. Miriam and Chad also discuss supporting each other through very hard times, alongside very dark jokes. A moving one.
Audio engineering by Jeremy Emery and Lamps Lampanella
Theme song melody and vocals by Miriam Katz, instrumentals by Jon Steinmeier
Logo designed by Anna Nguyen and Kathryn Davis
Photo: Dana Patrick
It's
SPEAKER_02:over but I still have questions It's over but I still have questions Ex-appeal is so real Ex-appeal is so real Ex-appeal is so real Hi, welcome to the very first episode of the X Appeal podcast. I'm very excited. For this podcast, I'm going to interview every single person I have ever been romantic with on any level. And yes, I have a list. I'm a writer and an actor. I used to be an art world person, now I'm more of a comedy person. And as the guest on You're like a high executive functioning hippie. Say things we've never said to each other. it or not. So it is a convincing podcast. And yeah, this project is so important to me. So thank you so much for being here. It is amazing that you are listening and enjoy the episode. You like drugs, you like God. You like drugs, you like God. You like drugs and you like God. Chad. Hi. Hi. It's funny. When I interviewed Rob, he was like, you didn't give any context. And I'm like, I can do that in the interview. But do you want to say something about yourself?
SPEAKER_01:What kind of context do you want?
SPEAKER_02:I guess like what you do for a living if you feel comfortable sharing. Oh,
SPEAKER_01:yeah. Because that's
SPEAKER_02:even a question of none of us know what we're willing to share. I
SPEAKER_01:think I'm becoming more open as a person as I get older. Cool. So... Like, what do I have to lose? Okay, I'm 48. I just had my birthday.
SPEAKER_02:Happy birthday. Your birthday party was so fun. It was kind of like sexy.
SPEAKER_01:Was
SPEAKER_02:it?
SPEAKER_01:Wow. Six people.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Cool restaurant. It was good.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. From the South. Grew up in Georgia. I'm
SPEAKER_02:glad you said that. See, this is exactly the kind of thing I would want to know.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. From Savannah. Lived in Seattle for a long time, in Argentina for five years. LA for almost 10. Oh, cool. And I was married for a very long time. And I guess I've been single and dating for the last couple of years.
SPEAKER_02:Like four years, probably. Three years?
SPEAKER_01:Almost three. I guess it was like June or July of... No, 2020. Yeah. So only two and a half.
SPEAKER_02:Wow. Okay. I mean, that time has felt long,
SPEAKER_01:but yeah. It feels, yeah. It was like basically, yeah, it was pandemic hours. So much longer, I guess. I don't know. So, but yeah, I guess like having not dated much, I was very evangelical as a kid and even as an adult. So I never really had a sort of 20s dating experience. So I think I sort of was making up for lost time the last few years, I guess. So this is so weird.
SPEAKER_02:Is it?
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:I love it. It's very odd. I love it. I don't want it to feel that weird for you. I
SPEAKER_01:want you to feel free. I know. I can relax a little. Yeah, I know. I know. It's cool. I mean, I think, I mean, I guess that's enough context. I don't really know what else to say. And you work
SPEAKER_02:in tech. I work in tech. I just think that just in terms of archetypes, it's like I've dated lawyers and doctors and actors and comedians. How many tech bros have you dated? Zero. One. One. Yeah, zero.
SPEAKER_01:Zero. You're like, I
SPEAKER_02:thought we dated.
SPEAKER_01:Well, no, I could also assume you don't think I'm a tech bro. I
SPEAKER_02:do think you're
SPEAKER_01:a tech.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, you're a tech person, so we can just call you a bro. Yes, you're my one and only
SPEAKER_01:tech
SPEAKER_02:person. I think. I think that's true. There's been so many. That's
SPEAKER_01:cool. Yeah. I feel like that's not, that's happened a few other times or one other time, maybe.
SPEAKER_02:What? That you're the only.
SPEAKER_01:Or twice. Yes. Where I've dated someone and they're like, you're the only tech. tech guy I've ever gone out with. Because I think that if you date in LA and you're hanging out with Eastside girls, they are often not in that world and there aren't that many tech bros in LA either. Right.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. You're also not a prototypical tech bro, I think. I think that's true. So I don't even, I don't think you exactly count.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You're something else. Okay. So.
SPEAKER_01:So, how do we meet? Sure. Do I ask you questions?
SPEAKER_02:I love that you're just leading the way here. Yes, I think that's a good way to start because that is the start of our
SPEAKER_01:relationship. Okay, we met on Hinge.
SPEAKER_02:In December of 2020, which is like almost two years ago.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Interesting.
SPEAKER_02:And you really hadn't been dating that long at that point.
SPEAKER_01:No. I'd only really gone out with... I mean, I think I'd gone on a lot of dates very quickly. I was doing like outdoor walks and all the sort of COVID things. But... Yeah, only really a couple of people. So
SPEAKER_02:yeah, we met on Hinge. We had a Zoom date.
SPEAKER_01:I asked if you tagged the wall on you in your picture. How do you remember that? I love that. I
SPEAKER_02:remember that too,
SPEAKER_01:but I'm surprised you remember that. Yeah, yeah. Yes, I tagged your wall metaphorically.
SPEAKER_02:You started the conversation. Is there any world in which you kind of remember why?
SPEAKER_01:You had fun energy for sure. Yeah. I was like, Oh, she seems, she seems like she has character personality. Yeah, for sure. So I think that was it. Cool.
SPEAKER_02:And then,
SPEAKER_01:and then you said, I don't really like to meet up in person unless I do some sort of like call or, Oh,
SPEAKER_02:did I say
SPEAKER_01:that? I think, I mean, that was more of a COVID
SPEAKER_02:thing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know that I would still do that.
SPEAKER_01:Right. But
SPEAKER_02:I think I was, yeah, I think I was less, it was like pre vaccine. I think it was less loosey goosey with, cause there's also almost no point. I also had, had a few dates where after 12 minutes I was like okay
SPEAKER_00:I'm done
SPEAKER_02:yeah
SPEAKER_00:yeah
SPEAKER_02:and they'd be like what but it's like I 100% knew I did not want to spend any more time talking to them it was pulling teeth what
SPEAKER_01:you've actually left after 12 minutes
SPEAKER_02:yeah
SPEAKER_01:whoa and I wish I had that level of sort of confidence or
SPEAKER_02:well but I wouldn't be rude I actually think you do have that confidence I've heard you break up with people very quickly or like very definitively out of nowhere in my mind or whatever so I think you We definitely have that in a different scale, oddly. Any whoosers schmoozer, I... Yes, my line was always, I want to go catch the sunset at my friend Michelle's house.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, wow. But it could be like three in the morning.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I don't do
SPEAKER_01:Zoom dates at three in the morning. She lives in Arizona.
SPEAKER_02:I gotta go. She lives in Europe. Okay, so yeah, I remember like, I remember enjoying chatting on even just on the app. There was like something you seemed like smart and interesting and maybe surprising. Oh, cool. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Like funnier than you thought? I
SPEAKER_02:don't know about funnier. I know. I don't know if it was funnier. I think just you are a surprising person. Oh, cool. Yeah. So, you know, there's a lot of... dull conversations. And I was sort of like, huh. And then I loved the Zoom. You sort of, I don't think the Zoom was here or there for you, but I was like, oh, whoa.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, cool. No, that's interesting. I remember when we were talking on Zoom, I was like sitting on a chair in my room or whatever. I had that creepy picture. You did
SPEAKER_02:a very unnerving painting
SPEAKER_01:behind you. It was like a placeholder and it's just become... It's horrible. I know, but I think it's sort of my picture of Dorian Gray. I need it to age for me. You
SPEAKER_02:know that doesn't work.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I just can't harm the painting. That's the only thing. Got it, got it. I just remember saying, I remember that you were like, okay, this is cool. And you had some sort of like, I noticed when you were like, yeah, we should hang out again or something. And I was like, oh, cool. I could tell. And I was definitely like, great, we definitely should. I was excited.
SPEAKER_02:And I feel like we talked about some, what's that Christian woman, Miss Oh,
SPEAKER_01:wow. Julian of Norwich?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, interesting. I only bring her out for the people I'm really into.
SPEAKER_02:That's one of your tricks. You read them that story and then
SPEAKER_01:the
SPEAKER_02:Raphael Waksberg story.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's funny. No, I mean, it's interesting. I mean, there were probably some themes going on for me at the time. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think about her a lot because I like her quote about all manner of things will be made well. All men are what? All manner of things shall be made well. All men are of? No, sorry, all manner of things. Oh,
SPEAKER_02:shall be well? All manner of things shall be well.
SPEAKER_01:And I think it's this whole idea that God will redeem creation in some way. And so it's sort of a hope. And I think, Having grown up very evangelical and being much less now, it's that sort of hope that sort of remains for me. I don't have a lot of other Christian theology left, but that one resonates.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:So you can kind of hope for that no matter how... the manner of things is made. Well, I can kind of hope that it would be in some way.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I, I did, I mean, I mentioned her and, um, the memorial service for Charlie. So, which I guess I should give context on that too. Later.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Cause that's sort of like actor
SPEAKER_01:foreshadowing.
SPEAKER_02:We can end on Charlie. Oh my God.
SPEAKER_01:Um,
SPEAKER_02:no, there is a lot to cover. So, okay. So then we went for a walk and it was like fun and easy and breezy. I remember like, we
SPEAKER_01:sat in the park first. I think we walked
SPEAKER_02:first. And I remember there was some joke, you know, a minute into hanging out. Oh, right. There was a big dumpster.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I mean, past the two sides of the dumpster.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And then,
SPEAKER_02:and we went around, like we went to
SPEAKER_01:the middle of a conversation and then we split the dumpster, split us. And I made a joke about how I can't quite, I don't know if I can talk through it quite right without experience it. But it's like, we were, the joke was that we, I would start to tell you a joke in the beginning of it. And then you would sort of like say the punchline on the other side. Oh, cool. It was the idea that we were kind of so in sync that we were kind of telling a joke with each other. And it kind of, yeah. And I remember I used to do that with my friend in high school. Whenever we would get split up like that, we got into a habit where one of us would say a sort of starting thing and the other one would sort of say a punchline at the same time. Or we would say a-
SPEAKER_02:Oh, wow. You would try to
SPEAKER_01:do it. Try to sort of like say two phrases and hope that those phrases lined up. Whoa, I love that. Yeah, but it's funny. The fact that I was comfortable enough with you to tell you that, I was like, whoa, that's weird. I know. I would never make that joke or say that with almost anybody.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Which tells me you have very good comic timing and taste, of course.
SPEAKER_02:I think I, whenever I bring up childhood stuff or think about childhood stuff, I can tell I'm very relaxed.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, interesting. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Like when I think about like camp or something. Yeah. So, yeah, I think right away it was like, not that it was. And it was all, you know, I've had dates that were very like, sort of like bright and bubbly like
SPEAKER_01:that. But you don't want to have another one or something still.
SPEAKER_02:No, not even that. It's just that that's sort of the whole tone. But I feel like we went into a lot of different areas. And I actually think I remember it being like a little serious in a way that I also like. Yeah. I like getting into it. And you definitely like getting into it.
SPEAKER_01:That's true.
SPEAKER_02:Like you're like, let's go into this.
SPEAKER_01:Let's go deep. I mean, not with everybody. I mean, certainly there are plenty of people I do not do that with. But
SPEAKER_02:you're down to. Oh, yeah. And you're curious about. I prefer to do that. Yeah. I always prefer that. Even though I also like stupid humor and like being very silly. I love both. That's also like in hospice. That's like a big part of, it's like that range I think comes up a lot when I talk to dying people and it's my favorite way to be.
SPEAKER_01:That makes perfect sense. I mean, first of all, that totally tracks with who I know you to be, but that sense of being serious Serious and silly or serious and fun is really, those are requirements for me, I think, in
SPEAKER_02:like
SPEAKER_01:relationship.
SPEAKER_02:That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. I love like figuring out those requirements because I think when I was younger, it was just sort of like, whatever, you know, it was like, I don't know, you're cute. Like it was so, and I feel like now I'm more sensitive to like little, even problems. I'm sort of like, oh, that's going to be a problem.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Day
SPEAKER_02:one, I know that's going to be a problem. It doesn't mean I rule them out or won't go on day two, but But I'm sort of like, and yes, possibly that's self-fulfilling prophecy, but I actually think it's more just
SPEAKER_01:knowing. You can kind of tell quickly. Yeah. But I think for me, it's taken me a while to figure out what those things are. Even if you know somebody has one of those qualities, maybe I didn't think through or didn't examine enough why that worked or why it didn't work.
SPEAKER_02:It may not even have taken you that long because I think it took me 20 or 25 years.
SPEAKER_01:I guess, okay, that's fair. You know, like you actually
SPEAKER_02:learned a lot and are continuing to learn a lot in a pretty concentrated, like to hear. Okay, so I just want to say, make a comment about the sound. Chad was so concerned about sound and it is making him make more sound. So I hope you like the sound of crackling.
SPEAKER_01:Amazon water.
SPEAKER_02:Amazon water. Plug. I, okay. So I remember I remember really liking that and being like, almost feeling like a, like sometimes with books, I won't remember the story at all. I won't even remember a single character, even books that I call my favorite books. I could not tell you the summary, but I can tell you the feeling of having read it and I can tell you the tone. So I just remember feeling like a warmth and like almost like a calmness and like a safety.
SPEAKER_00:Wow.
SPEAKER_02:Rather than being like buzzy buzzy, it was more just like, ooh, warm. And then we got lunch too. So it was like part two of the date, which was like notable because it was like mostly I would just do the walk. The walk would be planned.
SPEAKER_01:And I made a joke about it. It was like, oh, we're on a second date or something. I don't remember that. Yeah. But I also remember you were leaning against the wall in that place. And I was, I had a bit of a like, oh, I could lean in. Not like I wanted to like go for a kissing or something, but I had the energy of like, oh, I could lean in and that would be like received. It was like
SPEAKER_00:a
SPEAKER_01:connection. And that's not always the case, like on an hour long into a first date. Even if it's going well, you're not. Sometimes you don't always feel that. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And then we sat and had a picnic and you told me. I
SPEAKER_01:remember I told you. I don't know. Okay. I'm trying to think if I want to say this on the podcast because I think. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:yeah. You don't have to. Forget it. That's fine.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, it's okay, I guess.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. I'll just say it in a vague way. I
SPEAKER_01:told, I gave you a detail about my life and my married life that you were like, that's not always the kind of thing that somebody would say on her first date. And I think that it's, I think it's actually interesting because I think that not having dated a lot, this is one thing I think about, I've learned about probably being married for a long time and then dating is some of my sort of boundaries are a little bit off because I'm not used to just being in a sort of casual manner with someone. And so I was like, saying all this stuff. Oh yeah. You like ended up using it for improv. Oh
SPEAKER_02:yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You were like, which.
SPEAKER_02:Oh my God. I don't remember exactly what the game was, but I guess it was like overshare man or whatever. Something like that. It was maybe even more specific
SPEAKER_01:than that. I learned about my first date sex life on his first date. It was like a little
SPEAKER_02:intense. It was funny. But also it was at that point that you revealed that you had like only very recently. been separated. And I was like, oh, OK. So there was already a feeling of like, hmm, he might not be totally ready. I
SPEAKER_01:don't know what you're talking about. Fair. Yeah, I think. Yeah, because I think, you know, we. I sort of feel like I knew the year before it was not going to. I mean, we sort of had a long time. We felt like it wasn't going to work. But then it was like we really didn't separate until like right before COVID. So, you know, yeah, it was, it was a lot to just for the, I can imagine what it would feel like to be you on the other side of having someone say, yeah, I just stopped living with my partner of 18 years. Yeah. Last February. And it's like December. So not that long.
SPEAKER_02:And I hadn't dated someone who had been recently divorced. So yet. And then I like recently went on a date with someone who was sort of like the same thing. And I was sort of like, And he was like talking shit about his ex. And I was like, like, I was like, I know what
SPEAKER_01:this is. Although I feel like I, I, I would say, I don't think I actually try. I try not to talk shit about my ex. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:No, it wasn't even the shit. It was just sort of like,
SPEAKER_01:Oh, this is like a parenthetical phrase. Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Great. Great. Great. Your chat's perfect. Let's just say
SPEAKER_01:that. Can we get that stipulated? Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. 100%. You can get anything stipulated. Lots of parentheticals here. Um, I think I, uh, Yeah, I think now I maybe know a little bit more what that means, but I already did have a sense. Not that I was like, oh, no, this isn't going to work, but it was sort of like I was surprised at how recently you had been divorced.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But it's like at some point, what are you going to do? Someone has to be early on in your experience of dating. And I wasn't like, oh, I'm not going to do it. I was like, okay, cool. And then we walked back to my house and And then we hugged and I had this like very intense. I
SPEAKER_01:touched the side of your leg somewhat accidentally.
SPEAKER_02:You remember that part? I don't really
SPEAKER_01:remember. And I was like, whoa. Where was that? It was very buzzy. When I gave you a hug.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. I don't
SPEAKER_01:really remember. It was just like a hug. And then I was like, you're on the stairs. I was like, your stairs are very steep. Oh, yeah. And I kind of, yeah. And I was like, whoa.
SPEAKER_02:I had a whoa moment with your chest. I don't think I
SPEAKER_01:touched
SPEAKER_02:your chest. But in hugging you, I was like, like there was just something in your chest that I was like,
SPEAKER_01:what? I remember you telling me later you wanted to like extract something out of it. I don't. I don't
SPEAKER_02:remember that phrase, but that's cool that you remember that. There was something in your chest that I was like, what is that? And I think I later understood that it was pain. Oh, God.
SPEAKER_01:But
SPEAKER_02:it was like...
SPEAKER_01:It's just not like the shining, that little man living in the back of his throat or whatever. Oh, God. No, it's not that. Maybe it really was. I mean, you probably could feel this emotion or this sadness. I think it was emotion. And I
SPEAKER_02:like emotion. But also, I think that it felt a little... I mean, I like the feeling of, whether you want to call it like... past life or like just some kind of connection that doesn't make sense so past life is just like an example of what that could be it's like i mean that's sort of my one of my favorite parts about being alive and specifically dating is that you're like drawn to certain people
SPEAKER_01:like it's so interesting in some ways you can't explain or you can't both
SPEAKER_02:i mean the the part that you can explain is the most boring part it's the part you can't explain that's like because there could be somebody that like has it all that you're like get out of my face right and there could be someone who's a disaster, for example, and you're like, this is it.
SPEAKER_00:Interesting. And that's so
SPEAKER_02:cool.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Because there aren't that many things that's like a regular part of your life that has that magic in it.
SPEAKER_01:You mean other than dating? I think dating
SPEAKER_02:has it. I mean, I definitely think for me, like improv has
SPEAKER_01:it,
SPEAKER_02:you know, acting has it.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I mean, you work with kids a lot too. I think sometimes like having, being a parent and like some of the mystery of why something's is funny or why you're connecting or why you're, yeah, just the interaction can be, it has some of that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:For sure.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. But dating is like one of the most, I mean, I've thought this before that dating is so spiritual, but it's also just sort of like a regular mundane, almost crass part of life. Right. So you're like able to experience that like deep connection, but it's accepted. It's like it passes in regular reality.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It's so interesting. You and I are like so interested. You
SPEAKER_01:know, I think we talked about that because I mean, we'll probably get to it. But when we went on New Year's and we were like walking around. Oh,
SPEAKER_03:yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I remember you saying so we we went out like that time we went out like to I guess we went to the beach over. Yeah. And then we went to on New Year's. I remember we went to there were no parties. It was like the worst moment of COVID. And you came over. We
SPEAKER_02:dressed dressed up. Like heels and like wedding dress and you were wearing
SPEAKER_01:a suit. I had like a suit and like a trench coat and a tie. Yeah, yeah. We really did it up. And then we just walked around Santa Monica. And I think it was actually illegal to walk around Santa Monica. It was like a curfew. That's
SPEAKER_02:so funny. And
SPEAKER_01:we walked down to the Arrow and we took a picture in front of it. And I remember while we were walking, you were like, I just wish my married friends could experience Hinge. Whoa. And we had this whole conversation about, I know it's so fun to meet new people. And I was like, this is intoxicating because you just, it's the connection and the, it's like what we were talking about the other day about going to other people's houses and being like, oh, this is how this person lives. Like, I can't believe I got a chance to walk into this menagerie for a moment. And I think, I remember you were just excited about that. And we were sort of like, yeah, it doesn't really work without the energy of like the engine of romance to kind of push it forward.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.
SPEAKER_02:Um, Yes, I do. So yeah, we went on like a few dates. I think we were like very, I remember even like we didn't kiss first date. We kind of like pecked first date. And then the next time we hung out, I was like so fucking ready to go. I was like, I was wearing like a short dress. I was like, I went to your house. I was like, let's fucking party.
SPEAKER_01:It was like the energy was, yeah, it was good. There's also
SPEAKER_02:not much going on. Like we dated during, like you said, high COVID. I think the highest.
SPEAKER_01:The absolute highest, the peak. And I think it was very painful for me in different ways, that entire experience, because it was so solo. And like, I'm not somebody who, I mean, I love being one-on-one, but I also probably too much want sort of social validation and connection to other people. And I was like, I can't, I don't know how to, this is like this little isolated relationship that has no context with any other person. I've never met any of your friends. I mean, we were talking about them, but there's no, it's just, it felt so on this little precipice and it felt very difficult to sort of integrate the interactions we're having with the rest of my life. It's very confusing.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, wow. I didn't have that.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I was both learning how to date and doing it in a vacuum and that was wild. Actually, it caused a lot of problems for me. I think it blew up a relationship I had before I met you because I just didn't know how to
SPEAKER_02:deal with it. Wow. Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. Even like later on, and I do think like chronologically is kind of best. But later on, at some point, when we were talking about maybe there being difficulties with us, you were like, I mean, you're an actor. I don't know what that is. I don't know what your life is. I don't remember that at all. And I was just like, who cares? I was just like, I actually think that one is not a problem. Don't worry about that. But yes, that is interesting that you were trying to figure out how to... Also, you were used to living with three kids and a wife, and I had been living alone for many, many years. So yes, COVID was super, super super, super solo for me and I'm a very social person. So it was painful, but I think you even more were like used to people around all the time. All the
SPEAKER_01:time, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. But yeah, so we were like very, I was like very excited and like drawn to you. And part of that connection to like your chest was also like attraction. And it was like-
SPEAKER_01:Cool, thanks.
SPEAKER_02:Wahoo! Like I was just, I just remember being like so amped, like a kid.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_02:I was like, let's fucking party. Right? It was so fun.
SPEAKER_00:So funny.
SPEAKER_02:And yeah, we had a really good time.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I'm an open book. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Sure.
SPEAKER_01:We did. It was great. It was like, well, that was like New Year's. That was New Year's.
SPEAKER_02:Well, no, we'd like hooked up a few times for them.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, that's right. I'm kind of mixing them together. Yeah, that's
SPEAKER_02:true. I was all like, that's like the first time I went to your house was like
SPEAKER_01:all excited. That's right. It was like a but it was literally only like a week or two before. It was like right before Christmas
SPEAKER_02:or- Yeah, totally. And we hung out just a couple of times. Yeah, we did go to the beach. And I remember I was like, do you want me to drive or do you want to drive? And you said, the car will drive us. I was like, oh yeah. The tech bro. The tech bro, yeah. And yeah, so New Year's was super fun. And we like made it great. You made dinner. We got really dressed up. We watched a comedy show. We microdressed on mushrooms. And then we did gratitude popcorn.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, that's right. And
SPEAKER_02:we went back and forth and said what we're grateful for, which
SPEAKER_01:is such a sweet New Year's thing to do. But that was coming from you. That was a good idea. That was really cool. I like that a lot. But
SPEAKER_02:you were completely down. Like you weren't like making me embarrassed. You weren't being like, this is LA woo woo, which a lot of people do that. A lot of people do that about everything. They just don't let you like get past just going for it and doing the thing. They have to name it or negate it or make fun of it. Even if they're eventually going to do it, there's this like initial
SPEAKER_01:resistance. They're going to have a say. Or a sort of distance, an arch sort of. Yeah. I feel like you're very, you bring a lot of gratitude to your life. And so it's very compelling or intoxicating or captive. It sort of sweeps you up in it, of course. I feel like it'd be really hard not to when you're with you. Cool.
SPEAKER_02:That's very sweet of you. And I remember you talked about your kids and it was like really sweet.
SPEAKER_01:Aw.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I mean, it was, I don't know. It was also one of those moments. I think maybe you are really aware of what you're grateful for because you're like, wow this is this is a tough moment for humanity so but I think I would have felt that way anyway but it was yeah it was cool so I definitely was like dealing with a lot of a lot of emotion about getting divorced that I was kind of coming back and forth and sort of fading in and out of us interacting I think so
SPEAKER_02:yes for sure and I remember even maybe the next night you were like oh do you want to come over and I was like yes I do because that that The night was so fun and then the next day was so fun.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was very relaxed.
SPEAKER_02:Very relaxed, very silly, very like slowly caffeinating, eating, just really like a lot of languishing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it was cool.
SPEAKER_02:And then you had to help, I guess, Charlie with his college application.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, maybe. Or
SPEAKER_02:maybe Will. I don't know, it was Charlie. So then I left and then I think like maybe the next day, oh, it's a little quiet. I came back over and then there was like an issue with your ex-wife and I was like, oh, this is... This
SPEAKER_01:is how it kind of goes.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Well, I just didn't know it was such a problem.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, I think that like I wasn't really aware of how to compartmentalize or separate some of that stuff out as well either. It affected me a lot.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I don't know how you could have actually. It's not just like You didn't have the skill. It was bleeding into your emotional life, which on one level is okay, because everyone has a lot of feelings that bleed into their relationships. But it was like, oh, I don't... I don't know. I think it was like your pain. I think it was the difficulty of the situation. I think it was how much it overtook that evening. It was like, oh, I don't know. And I think I understand people having a hard time. So it wasn't just, I mean, you could have been having like a health issue or a work issue or whatever, but I think there was something in it that was like, oh, this is really bleeding in. And we had just slept together and it was just sort of like, It was bad timing. It was very bad timing. Especially because that half day we hung out on New Year's, I was like, oh, we are doing this. I was like, oh, hell yeah. And that really was what I was looking to do. Because I spent so many years doing open relationships or being with like a million people at once.
SPEAKER_01:And you were very clear. You're like, I'm looking for something serious.
SPEAKER_02:But it was the first time that I was for many years. And then there was like the experience of like, oh my God. like we're doing this and then almost immediately after it was like oh maybe we're really not it's a big difference those two hangs
SPEAKER_01:and I think that was the most that was probably the moment of peak despair for me of the entire experience of getting divorced like that whoa that little time I absolutely think that because I just it was so much emotion and I didn't quite know how to fully feel it or and so it just got it got trans referred onto all these other things. It was, it was like, um,
SPEAKER_02:well, we were just talking about referred paint. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. Yeah. I think it's like, it was, I, I sort of, I read this book that was, um, on getting divorced maybe soon after that. And, um, what they said was you sort of funnel a lot of your emotion into the next relationship you have from your divorce. And so I think some of that back and forth and that sort of trauma and anxiety was just sort of, I couldn't sort of contain it. And I think it came out onto you and it came out onto a couple other people, frankly, you know, so, or the sadness of not knowing how to, I mean, I didn't want to get divorced. I didn't, it just wasn't something I went into thinking, oh, it'll be fun to just kind of, you know, date people I mean, it is fun.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But I wasn't looking for that and looking for an excuse. And so I think that that was a lot of being honest about that or having or sort of processing those emotions took me a long time to sort of sort out what was about that previous relationship and what was about us. Right.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:So don't go out with guys who are just getting out of a long term relationship. PSA for the listeners.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Wow, what a fun dark PSA. And... then, yeah, there was some like, I mean, we're having a good time and we, we like read a, we read streetcar named desire
SPEAKER_01:together. No. And I remember, um, you know, I'm, I'm very close with one of my colleagues at work and she was, I sent her a screenshot about my suggested activities. And, um, it was like, what do you want to do? Do you want to do like veggie tales or was it, there's some sort of, or Ibsen, Ibsen
SPEAKER_00:cosplay.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And so she, has made that joke at me for years now. Like, oh yeah, she's like, I think you might like this girl. I mean, I don't think you could do Epson cosplay with her.
SPEAKER_02:It's an amazing baseline.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, it is actually helpful though to think, oh yeah, you want to be in a relationship with someone who can hang with that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02:Well, it's also such a perfect, it's like what we're talking about with the high and low. It's like, okay, you need like a master's degree in critical theory and you need to do improv comedy. That's exactly
SPEAKER_01:right. And have like a relatively high sex drive and be great with Yeah, it's just a lot. It's a lot. Totally.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And yes, I remember like, we couldn't go to dinner, which is what you do on dates. We had to get creative. So we like
SPEAKER_01:read. But you were, it was great the way you were like, let's do, we're going to do Streetcar Named Desire. We're going to read it to each other.
SPEAKER_02:And we did. And
SPEAKER_01:it was really fun. And it made me realize I like doing like reading, you know, plays and things like that with someone else. That doesn't sense really once or twice, just more just like reading to someone else. And then I think you bring that up a lot where you like to, like you had Rob read to you a lot.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's cool.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. It's like a, it started a sort of like hobby, I guess.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know?
SPEAKER_02:Well, that I think I brought into your life and then you've told me that like role play I've brought into your life.
SPEAKER_01:That's true. I don't know if you, I mean, too late now.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, totally. Well, no, there's always cutting. And then I think there was like, at some point it did start to feel like, you were feeling a little uncomfortable and a little unsure and a little not ready. I don't even totally remember how that came up or whether it was explicitly said or whether I could feel it from you or what. Cause definitely we weren't hanging out with other people, which is a little bit of COVID thing, but also just like, I think we were like having a good time. But yeah, I don't even really remember what it was that this phrase, I'm not sure I'm ready. I'm not ready. Well,
SPEAKER_01:I think that came up. It certainly came up when we went to Joshua Tree.
SPEAKER_02:For sure. But there had been, we had had like a conversation before that, a pretty like serious conversation before that, maybe two weeks before Joshua Tree, where it was like, oh, are we maybe breaking up because you're not ready?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's right. And we kind of wavered around, well, this is still fun or this is like, we're enjoying it. So let's kind of see where it goes. But it felt like we were like a little bit, or I was at least a little bit leaning out.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know whether I was saying like, I feel that you're doing that or whether you were explicitly saying.
SPEAKER_01:Maybe both.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. I don't really know. I don't think I really didn't feel like you were there. I mean, we hung out like once a week or something.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But I felt like when you were there, you were pretty there. But yeah, somehow there was this sense of like, you're not sure you can do it, which was a bummer because I was like, I'll just do this. That's cool. I was like, and that feels good. And that feels like something I don't think I would have done when I was younger. To
SPEAKER_01:you, to just be like emotionally committed to- Emotionally committed, but also
SPEAKER_02:verbally open about that. Yeah, I think I was just like, I was not embarrassed. I was like, it's fine. I'm just gonna say that I am totally up for doing this. I did start to feel a little uncomfortable or shy or not myself at some point, which can happen when I feel like someone's not definitely in. So it's like, as much as I think I was like pretty open about the fact that I was down, to, like, really date you, I also was starting to feel a little self-conscious.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I... I think it was probably you could feel my... tentative sort of spirit coming out more
SPEAKER_02:which is not a great feeling
SPEAKER_01:it's not great when you like someone it's like
SPEAKER_02:oh
SPEAKER_01:yeah
SPEAKER_02:yeah because then you're sort of like it's so funny because rob apologized too and i do not need this to be like the podcast where men apologize to me
SPEAKER_01:that's actually a good name oh that is the podcast where men apologize to me i would workshop that that's not bad i
SPEAKER_02:have a lot of ideas for names um okay
SPEAKER_01:so you could also do a super cut of all of them saying sorry back to back. That's
SPEAKER_02:funny, dude. Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:I
SPEAKER_02:like it. Okay, yeah. That's for the Patreons. Only
SPEAKER_01:fans.
SPEAKER_02:So then, yeah, we had like a longer conversation about whether we could do it. And I think the result of that was like, cool, that's a possibility. Let's do Valentine's Day and go to Joshua Tree because we'd already planned those two things. That's right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That's right. And then I forgot about, I mean, I remember Valentine's Day because it was actually super fun. Yeah. And I had that poem written for you.
SPEAKER_02:Oh my God, that was so funny, dude. Do
SPEAKER_01:you have access to it? Okay, yeah, good. Dude, so funny. Yeah, and it was like, it was... Also the whole, and we have to, we kind of connected over the Sarah Silverman joke about 9-11.
SPEAKER_02:It came up because you had gone to a dinner and people were saying it's a bummer that a lot of standup comedy jokes aren't like perfect little jokes, like a kid's joke or a street joke. You wouldn't be able to recreate it. And I was like, well, there's some that are, you know, like Mitch Hedberg or I don't know, Sarah Silverman or something. And you were like, like what? And Sarah Silverman had a joke many years ago, which was like, 9-11 was such a tragedy. It was the day that I found out that chai soy lattes have like a million calories. And it's just like a soundbite joke.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_02:And then we just like had sort of a dumb ongoing joke about 9-11.
SPEAKER_01:Right, which I mean, it's a little crass too to sort of say it out loud, but it was just more like it became like a sort of back and forth.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, we still text each other at 9-11. Like, yeah, there's just...
SPEAKER_01:I hope no one listens to that and feels offended. It's fine. I
SPEAKER_02:was there. I'm allowed. It's not cultural appropriation. I was in New York. Um,
SPEAKER_01:that's true.
SPEAKER_02:So then, um, Chad had a poem written.
SPEAKER_01:I have it.
SPEAKER_02:It's so funny. I'm so happy you have it.
SPEAKER_01:It was, it was like, um, yes. Okay. Here it is. And, and she said, she tweeted something like I, you know, hit me up. You can pay me like on Fiverr or whatever, and I'll write something for you. And, and so I was like,
SPEAKER_02:what's her name? Just so we have
SPEAKER_01:to plug
SPEAKER_02:her, plug Amazon. and her
SPEAKER_01:I will it's going to take me a second to find it I have the poem I don't have it from her cool and I
SPEAKER_02:can also add it to the intro
SPEAKER_01:yeah maybe yeah so she goes I said I need a short Valentine's Day poem for Miriam I need it to include the theme of 9-11 I'm so sorry we connected over the Sarasota 9-11 being the day she realized how many calories soy lattes have lol I will pay you double which was$10 and so she Marissa Galvez is her name. Oh, great, great. So she basically, you should tweet at her when you publish this episode. So she hits it back like five minutes later. She goes, your love is like the sound of a hum, as sweet as a kiss, my dear Miriam. Loving you is just like heaven. I fall for you like 9-11.
SPEAKER_02:Brilliant.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks for being such a hottie. I don't care how many calories are in your latte. And that was it.
SPEAKER_02:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:That was pretty good.
SPEAKER_02:It's also very creative.
SPEAKER_01:It's creative. It was fun. It was whimsical. I read it to you at dinner. Yeah, I was pretty happy with it. I mean, I also got you flowers, so that was cool.
SPEAKER_02:And chocolates, actually. You really went for it.
SPEAKER_01:It was cool. It was fun.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and then I think that was like, we do holidays well. It was like a particularly sweet evening. I think we stayed up.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we did. And I think it was cool, too, because we were both like, let's embrace this experience together. Let's don't be like wishy-washy about whatever my emotional state, I'm going to push that aside. I'm going to really, you know... Yeah, which is
SPEAKER_02:cool.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:I... Like mushrooms.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I only microdosed with you. That was the only experience I had. I didn't have any other. And
SPEAKER_02:I felt strongly that you take mushrooms for several reasons. One, probably I would have thought that from the very first conversation we had on Zoom. Just the way that you are interested in exploring the world and that your curiosity about the world.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And you had had a shift out of Christianity and a shift out of like your primary relationship. And yeah, I just thought for me, mushrooms have always given me a lot of epiphanies and made me like clarify what's important and get messages. And there's just always something incredibly useful that expands out of, you know, beyond the experience. Like it's not just like, oh, it's a really fun five hours. It's always like, oh my God, for months and even years, it's super helpful.
SPEAKER_01:And you've It seemed like, one, the way you talk about mushrooms and the way you've talked about having that experience for like 20 years and doing it once a year in the desert with your friend or once or twice, I guess, and having this sort of person who was a guide for you in certain ways, it was very compelling because it wasn't like, oh my gosh, it's so fun to go to a, you know, factory show in downtown LA and just get like... out of your mind. It was much more about, I've learned a lot. I've had a lot of processing. It's been a big moment for me in my life. So I was like, well, this sounds super cool. Like I'm, I'm down.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And it also, I imagine would be like a way to clarify stuff with us, get closer, be vulnerable. I just felt, and also like the way in which you are comfortable. Like we were saying that thing of some people sort of block, Certain things, you do not do that, which is why I don't think of you as like a prototypical tech bro. You are an unusual person in that you're like, let's go. Let's explore. Let's figure stuff out. And it's why you get close to a lot of people.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Yeah, I think it's true.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So I think also I felt like safe.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:going with you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Which is surprising because usually it's like people I've known for many years or my best experiences are. And I usually, if I'm doing it with just one person, it's a woman. It's just, I mean, I have done it with men before, but yeah, it was cool. It was cool that I felt comfortable getting vulnerable in front of you because I knew I would probably cry a lot.
SPEAKER_01:Which you did. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I think you did too. Okay. So we went to Joshua Tree and like got over really nice place and like got all the food in advance and just took care of everything. And then the
SPEAKER_01:morning- And you told me, you gave me a lot of intents. You told me to think about things before I even went to process. So I spent time before I got there thinking about them.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, that's cool.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know if you remember that.
SPEAKER_02:I do,
SPEAKER_01:yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, okay. And I remember we did yoga that morning and we only ate a little, like we just did everything right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you had a whole very, it was- it was a program. It wasn't just like, Hey, let's show up. This will be fun. It was like, we're going to do this. We're going to do yoga, you know, which is a little, I mean, I like yoga, but it is, it was definitely one of those, like I'm having a California. Yeah. Not normally, but, but it was cool. It was very thoughtful and it was very, you put a lot of effort into the whole experience where I thought was really, really spectacular. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I think that's a little bit how I live my whole life. There's a bunch of structure and then wildness within it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. No, it's true. That's actually one thing I think is very surprising about you. I think you're... At first blush, you're sort of like... You could be like, oh, I'm the improv actress, slight hippie vibes. But you're actually very organized, very determined, very thoughtful, very... Like... You're like a high executive functioning
SPEAKER_03:hippie. So I think that's, yeah,
SPEAKER_01:I think it's very, it's very cool. That's so funny.
SPEAKER_02:And you're like a, you know, just very successful tech person who's like wild. Secretly. An artist hippie. Yeah, artist hippie. Right. Like, you'll do anything. Truly, you will do anything and you don't even need that much sleep. Yeah, and we started together and then we ended up going our separate ways.
SPEAKER_01:And we were, I remember it was cold and windy, really cold and windy. And so you were very bundled up and you're walking around and it was
SPEAKER_03:like,
SPEAKER_01:it felt as it sort of kicked in, it was like, and you were very good about knowing kind of the amount and, and the, you, it was clear that you had done it enough. It did not, I felt very safe as well. I felt like, oh, this is, this is cool. And then I remember as it kicked in, we were like, I was like, oh, I need to be alone. We both clearly needed to have our own time
SPEAKER_02:I think it happened at the same moment. I wasn't like, oh, I feel that Chad needs to be alone. It was like both of us just sort of like very organically and naturally split. That's the part that you don't, you know, systematize or create a program for. Because it's just, it's like the natural order of things.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. No, yeah. Which
SPEAKER_02:felt so cool. It was like we both just knew. I don't, yeah, just accidentally happened. And then I had some epiphanies of about friends, and then the big epiphany I had was that I am a caretaker, which is not a word I think I would have felt about myself pre-COVID. I think the COVID stillness and doing less, because I can be kind of a workaholic, allowed a quietness that let me come to that, and that I need to work at a hospice, and that if I work
SPEAKER_01:at
SPEAKER_02:a
SPEAKER_01:hospice, I'll be
SPEAKER_02:able to sleep.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. Because it was connected to your feeling of like... you have such a hard time sleeping?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I think the not sleeping, and I've talked to an acupuncturist about this just very recently. It's been about not being who I'm supposed to be.
SPEAKER_00:It's
SPEAKER_02:like living wrong.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's intense.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Because I have done that for a long time because of my
SPEAKER_01:family. Yeah. Do you want to talk more about that or is that a future episode? I don't know. I mean, because to me, here's the thing. I would say it doesn't feel to me like you're the kind of person who lives wrong in the sense of like, I've been hanging out with the wrong kind of people. I've been living a life of sin. Like I gotta, you know, it's not, it wasn't, it's more, maybe there's a purpose you haven't gotten to.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. Well, but yeah, I think there's like constantly a recalibration and it's not like when I worked in the art world, I was, it was bullshit. It was fine. And I was using my brain, which is fine, but I was not using my whole being. And then getting into comedy was like, oh, This is way more of myself. Acting is almost all of myself. And then doing death work is like another level of that. But there's probably still like upbringing, societal, family messaging that I haven't totally gotten out of, which is okay. But there's something about that extra piece of hospice that is like my purpose. And somehow I need the pain of not being able to sleep almost to guide me into that. It was just an interesting pairing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. It's, I mean, it's very clear that, I mean, I don't know, you can edit this out, I guess, but that your family does not accept you for who you are. Yeah. And, and, and you're, you know, you, you have a very intense family with, you know, extremely smart, successful, you know, siblings and parents. And I think like, and, and to me, like friends, when you were talking about being, you know, editing art for them, that was, I thought it was, it was very compelling to me, your background too. And like, obviously how much you're introducing me to like, you know, incredible writers or our conversation about books we had in common, things like that. So you, you just struck me as someone who's like extremely talented and extremely confident in what you, who you are. And yet it's like, why do you not accept who you are or something about, there's something that was like jarring to me to hear you talk about your family and how they sort of treat you and how they don't respect you.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Like that's, it's like painful.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know,
SPEAKER_03:it is
SPEAKER_01:for sure.
UNKNOWN:Um,
SPEAKER_01:I do think, um, I think you're underselling the epiphany though. Cause I think we, it was a big, it was a big deal. And it was like for, cause I remember you, we both had these really intense experiences separately, a little bit like the passing the dumpster and we came back together and it was like, and, and for me it was, I'll talk about mine in a second, but for, I was struck by how much you were, you were like, I need to change. I'm going to change my career or I'm going to add something to my career. I'm going to help people die. And you were like crying. And it was like, it could be, you could maybe see a movie and make it like a cliche. Oh, we had this Southern California yoga mushroom experience and you're going to like change careers. And, but it was, it was a conviction. It was very clear. It was not a sort of like, that'd be cool. It was like, you knew. Yeah. And I thought that was really, I was struck by it. I mean, you also had the other one, which we were like, I think I want to date women.
SPEAKER_02:Oh yeah. Well,
SPEAKER_01:it wasn't just woman. It was this
SPEAKER_02:woman named Tiffany. It was like a specific woman that I'd matched with on
SPEAKER_01:Hinge. Oh my gosh. You definitely should tweet at her when you release this. Oh, yeah. But she, yeah, and you ended up going out with her. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:it was fine.
SPEAKER_01:She's
SPEAKER_02:very beautiful. Tiffany, you're absolutely stunning.
SPEAKER_01:But anyway, but that, I mean, and I don't know, but it definitely felt like, it did feel like that didn't have the same level of conviction. This was extremely profound. But the other thing I remember you told me was, you're not ready. You said that phrase to me.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I thought you said the phrase. No, I think you said the phrase, I'm not ready. Or I think you also had thought the same thing. I said, if this was right, it would be easy. Oh, that's right. That was my phrase for you. That's right. That was my phrase. But we both had phrases about the relationship, which was like, the relationship is ending. It's over.
SPEAKER_01:It's over, yeah. But yeah, but like not in a bad, it felt like physics- It was like, oh, this is the right thing. Not like, oh, we're, it didn't feel forced either way. It was like, oh, this is right. We should, we should put this on hold. And
SPEAKER_02:it felt quiet. I think that's why you just said I was underselling the hospice epiphany. It's because it was so clear that I didn't almost have to be loud about it. Yeah. And I immediately started, I did a bunch of death doula trainings. I applied to hospices. I've been doing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Yes. And it's like a huge, important
SPEAKER_01:part of my life. It was cool to be there for it, for you to have that. I mean, I, I, I love that it, you know, it's still. Oh,
SPEAKER_02:and I will continue. I think I'll get deeper into it. I think at some point I will like take people and their family and their partners to Joshua, Joshua, shake mushrooms to like reckon with their dying. Yeah, completely. I definitely think that's going to keep being a huge part of my life before we continue. I want you to say what some of your epiphanies were.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So if you have, you have to have some context, which I can give it like 30 seconds for, my Christian experience, which was, I was very evangelical. I helped start a church in Seattle. I ended up in a, um, that didn't go so well. I ended up in a small group of very intense relationships that came out of that. It was, I would call it sort of like splinter group type church environment where it was like a sort of six, uh, Adults really, it was, I guess it was 10 at one point, it was down to six, extremely close, very loving, very connected and warm. And in many ways, like the most profound experience of my life in relationship with them. I learned a lot about myself. Our kids became very close. We ended up moving to Argentina together. It was like the big short, more or less. My friend was like, the market's gonna crash. And we started shorting the housing market and that kicked off a series Let's do something different for a while. That turned into a five-year adventure in Argentina. I got so much out of it. I learned a language. I learned a lot about myself. I started a company and sold it. It was really profound. That group got very insular and a little bit toxic. And they would disagree, but I believe that very deeply. And Um, you know, when you gave me the, this list of intents or you said, come up with a list of intents. And I, I had, um, I had sort of three things. I was, I wanted to spend some time thinking about how to help my three boys. Um, I wanted to think about our relationship and dating and what am I doing? And, um, I was thinking a lot about sort of. I think it was like, the third one's a little bit, I cannot remember this one as much, but it's more like, what am I sort of doing with my life a little bit more? Not just career, I didn't really care about focusing on career as much, more like, am I doing the things I should be doing? And when I went through this experience, I sort of had this vision of this really long road, and it was a... it's like almost if you were in the desert kind of like joshua tree but almost more like iraq or something where it's like you can't drive off the road because you just don't know it's just sand you can't the road is the only place you can drive and you're driving on the road and all of a sudden there's this like giant sort of you know 200 foot black onyx sort of stone in the middle of the road you cannot drive around it there's no way around it And that was my anger, actually, at a particular member of this group who's kind of a spiritual leader and a friend. And it was like, you've got to deal with this. You can't really get through anything else unless you deal with this. And I think it was really profound because I feel like it wasn't that once I saw it and I sort of recognized it, I kind of could break it apart and just kind of move on. And I really think it was, it was actually extremely impactful for me in terms of digging up something that I didn't, I kind of knew it was there, but When you're in a relationship with somebody who has narcissistic tendencies, I think they will often leverage things that they see inside you as sort of means of manipulating you in certain ways. And so I couldn't be honest about it because I felt like if I was honest about it, it would be a handle or a lever for that person to further manipulate. And so I think I need to just sort of come to it on my own with this internal experience and let it go. I don't think this person is responsible for my marriage falling apart. I think, in fact, I have many, many, many things I feel profoundly grateful for. But at the same time, it wasn't healthy. It was like a dysfunctional sort of... Almost think of it as like... I think many, many church leaders are... I think they don't mean to be. They're driven by a lot of conviction, but they're generally narcissists and they're generally driving a group or a church or a congregation or a friend group or whatever. And they're not always aware of what they're doing and why. And so I find people that are very intense and very passionate, very compelling. I want to be around them. I like filling my life with them. I mean, that's part of why I think I connect with you in many ways. And so I think I... I needed to let go of a lot of resentment I had towards this one person. So it was profound. And I had never done mushrooms before. I feel like I have the zeal, the newly converted, or I used to, where I would tell people about it all the time. And even my kids, I mean, not my youngest, but my older two, I talked about it and said, you know, when you're older, you should definitely do this. It's like the cliche divorce dad who's telling his kids to do drugs. But I wasn't saying it from the idea of letting go of who you are. I was saying it more of the idea of, honestly, it felt like I got six months of therapy in about six hours. And I had never experienced that. And I've had so many Bible studies and sing-alongs and church camps. And most of them were like, weren't really worth shit. And this was profound. And I think because we approached it with this goal of really understanding ourselves, it was life-changing. So that was one. I sort of let go of a past relationship that was a really painful... that I think I'd foisted a lot of stuff onto from my marriage. I think... I thought a lot about my kids. And I remember thinking, I'm not ready to date you. I'm not ready to do this at all. And it was very, very clear. It was like, you're on a path. You know what you're looking for. And you're on a mission to get it. And you haven't... You told me a lot about that. It was new for you to really focus on this kind of relationship. And I felt like I couldn't match it. And I couldn't... I wasn't ready to even begin helping you do that. It was incredible. I was blown away by how much we both got out of this. It felt transformational for me. I haven't actually had a mushroom experience since that was that. insightful. I think, you know, that doesn't probably happen that often. So it's, I have no idea. I was
SPEAKER_02:definitely, and I've done it a bunch of times and that was definitely like the highest level of it for me.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Do you feel like if you try to do it again, you know, every couple of years it would, you would have a similar experience or do you feel like it was more like all these things came together, COVID relationship, life choices?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think I definitely can and will have have a totally extraordinary experience. I think I needed that particular message at that particular time. Yeah. I think it's possible. I think I don't even necessarily need it. Like that was what I needed.
SPEAKER_00:And
SPEAKER_02:I certainly, there's no part of me that was like the next month, like again, like I just, yeah. I think I take it when I feel like I need to hear something epic like that. Whereas right this very moment in my life, I don't feel like I need that. What I love is the, the clarity, because you had been sort of being like, I think I'm not ready. But there's something like you don't have yourself arguing against an epiphany you don't want to hear. It's just sort of like the total resounding clarity. And mushrooms are not always quite that clear. Sometimes it's a little muddier, but that was a very, very clear trip. I think they were great mushrooms.
SPEAKER_01:Honestly, I do think the mushrooms quality did matter. I think they were really, they
SPEAKER_02:were extraordinary quality. And then, and they're a very unique, kind of mushroom that I somehow got access to in a very odd way. And also I'd been asking myself in meditation, who am I? Sort of over and over again. So I think that kind of got a great answer. Oh, that's right. But yeah, there's just a brain function that doesn't allow you to get away from the epiphany that maybe you'd been having in a recurring way.
SPEAKER_01:I think it was, so the thing that I realized was that there was already a part of my brain that knew all the things that I came to, this just allowed them to connect and allowed me to, that's why it felt like therapy is it was like, you already know this,
SPEAKER_00:just
SPEAKER_01:accept it.
UNKNOWN:Yes, totally.
SPEAKER_01:And you know, you could, in that sense, it makes it less spiritual and more physiological. But I do remember the other thing I kept feeling was I let go of, I've had some different moments where I sort of like, I let go of some of my faith and I don't have none, but it's certainly transformed quite And I think one was I had pancreatic surgery like seven years ago and thought I was going to die. And I was like, wow, this thing that I felt like was this sort of rabbit's foot in some way that would give me comfort and safety. It was profoundly useless. And I found myself looking at the world as much more, I guess, physical and less spiritual in many ways. And it was the experience was so powerful. sort of raw and tangible and in the present realm and not in the mortal coil and not, I found it not being really connecting to like my spiritual life at all. It's
SPEAKER_02:so funny, because it's, you know, for a lot of people, it's the opposite.
SPEAKER_01:It's the opposite, I know. It's very funny. But maybe it's like if you spend so much of your life kind of thinking about the afterlife and death and, you know, going to hell. I mean, you grew up in the South and you hear that you're gonna go to hell for masturbating, you know, and you can't talk about it because everyone's scared to talk about sex. all they think about and they also won't talk about it. And so it was these, all these different sort of forces that caused me to be so holding on so tight to this faith that was actually, you could argue, maybe it was just a false faith. And maybe there's a, a lot of Christians will say, I just, if I were to go deeper or to trust God more, it was more profoundly real than it. I wouldn't have had this. My false faith fell away. And like, you know, the true faith would, would have lasted if it were. And I, I just remember that like this sort of bookend of that was being on mushrooms and looking up at the moon and going, it's just a rock. And I had this whole idea of like, we're just in this physical, I don't know why we're here, but I also need to just be honest about my own observations of the world. And I felt less spiritual in some way. And I remember you told me later, you called me like a week later and you were like, in a lot of ways, people think about mushrooms as like the universe or God speaking to them. And so you are telling me that you're listening to the voice of God telling you that God isn't Whoa. I thought that was funny that it was such a, you kind of thought of it as like, do you remember this? No, that's
SPEAKER_02:such a funny phrase though.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was very ironic and very sort of, almost a sort of, or a sort of, I had a very intense sense of the absurdity of the revelation in that way. But it was like, I don't know, life is full of it. It was cool. I don't even know, it doesn't make me feel like I don't actually, won't end up at some deeper place of faith, but certainly it helped me sort of be honest about my own observations about the world and how it doesn't actually match up with my Christian experience. And I have to be, I had to be ruthlessly honest about that. And I think that, That's part of, I guess, figuring out what you want in life is just looking at what you believe and feel, you know, and saying it honestly. So anyway, it was cool.
SPEAKER_02:And I think that thing of not having the, it was like almost like a shift in faith. It wasn't like a moving away from faith. It's like the fact that the moon is a rock is amazing. And I remember you had a real experience with the sky, I think, turning
SPEAKER_01:pink and all the colors. The colors were bleeding. It was real. I had a lot of very, yes, synesthesia
SPEAKER_02:feeling. Yeah, so like that. That is its own kind of spirituality. That's its own other focus.
SPEAKER_01:I've been chasing those mushrooms since. You've got to get me in contact with that guy with the pet spiders. Flying squirrel and tarantulas. Tarantulas, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And a lot of cartoon posters. Okay, so then the next day we took a long hike.
SPEAKER_01:That's right.
SPEAKER_02:And it was like, okay, so we're not together and we're still gonna like really care about each other. Like we took like a, I think like an eight or nine mile hike.
SPEAKER_01:We really did it. It was beautiful. I mean, certainly that's one thing about mushrooms that the next day is always better. Yeah, it was great. And
SPEAKER_02:I think we felt very calm. I remember we talked about gray matter or gray.
SPEAKER_01:We talked about gray rocking. It was more about, oh no, I think what it was was a concept is, is going to sound kind of funny. It was like when you're in a relationship with someone who, um, has borderline personality disorder, you find yourself, any reaction you have, positive or negative, when you're in an argument, that you become, anything is elaborate. You could say, you could apologize, you could be gracious, you could be angry, you could be whatever. And so this is what I think. This could be, maybe we're misremembering, but in my mind, I was talking about this concept of when you get into a place with someone with those struggles, you end up learning to be a gray rock, they call it, where you basically have no reaction. You're just sitting there on the ground. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that was what it was. And I think maybe it was because we were walking around. I don't know if it was because we were hiking around a bunch of rocks or if we were just talking about relational dynamics with
SPEAKER_02:previous people. Well, I think that kind of like becoming neutral, you know, that's like one of the... I actually talked to... What's her name who did your interior design?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, Aliyah. Aliyah Pritchard. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I talked to Aliyah about that one of the options... to childhood trauma, but responses to childhood trauma is neutrality. Like either you like react and you are angry back or you become invisible, you become nothing. And it sounds like that's a little bit similar. You're just sort of like, oh, I don't exist so that there's nothing that you can take from me. And yeah, I think it was like, we had such a good time and still laughed. And I remember like stopping off in Palm Springs to charge the Tesla plug
SPEAKER_01:Plug. Plug. Plug. Plug. Plug.
SPEAKER_02:Plug. Plug. Plug.
SPEAKER_01:Plug. Plug. Plug. Plug. Plug. Plug.
SPEAKER_02:Plug. Plug.
SPEAKER_01:people who don't speak English, the way they talk about how English sounds. And I remember feeling like everyone's sounding like that. It was like, whoa, I don't like, this is just noisy. It was just intense to be back in a city.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. It was like, oh. But we listened to Beyonce on the way home, like her self-titled album. And we were like, this is the, it is a great album. We're like, this is the best. And it was like very sweet. And we held hands and it was just like a really, It's really nice. Sometimes it happens that the end of something does not have to like be a fight.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was really incredible. And I think that you also, I remember it, I mean, because we ended up not talking for a while, obviously.
SPEAKER_02:Well, first we did talk like. Kind of a lot at first. We had, for three weeks, I think we had like a pretty epic conversation once a week where I was like, so wait for real, so wait for real, so wait for real. And it was like a three hour, so wait for real. we're not doing this yeah and then it was like okay yes right definitely like there was a little like let's just make sure that's
SPEAKER_01:true no I think it was I'm glad we did it because it wasn't it wasn't clear to me really either it was like obviously it was clear in the moment but you're also you do get back and you second guess and you're like I don't know like I'm you know still like want to make out and have sex. That's real. It doesn't go away just because you're like, this isn't working. It was definitely like, ah. And then we didn't talk for seven months. And you just called me one day.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I went to New York. I always take like a month trip to New York in the summer. And that trip always really resets me. To
SPEAKER_01:Montauk or to...
SPEAKER_02:To Montauk and New York and just East Coast. And I think I was like, okay. I knew that there was going to be a moment. You didn't know that. You tried to text me a couple of times and I was like, mm-hmm. I just needed to like completely not talk for a while so that I would be a totally different
SPEAKER_01:person. I also sent you something that you were actually kind of hurt by. I think I saw Reggie somewhere and I was like, oh, look, it's Reggie. And I was like, and then you were like, dude, like later on you're like, dude.
SPEAKER_02:I don't remember that that was when we were not hanging
SPEAKER_01:out. Oh, yeah, no, you told me. Yeah, that's so funny. And it's another ex texting me about...
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It was just like... Oh, that's funny, dude. I have my moments of total, you know... social awkwardness, I guess.
SPEAKER_02:Well, you are boundaryless and it's the best and the worst. It does have some downsides. Yes, but it's also so fun. And then we, I called you and we talked on the phone for like hours and just like really caught back up. And then because we had the September 11th joke, my friend Julie made a film about comedy after 9-11. So I was like, how about the first time we hang out is we go see the screening of this movie on 9-11 together because it's our day. That's pretty funny. And then we went and saw it and then we walked around Echo Park Lake a couple times and it was so fun.
SPEAKER_01:That's true.
SPEAKER_02:It was great.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that was cool. We walked around a couple times and it was very like, oh, this works. Yeah. Like this is, we can have like, we can have a different relationship.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I, you know, I wasn't, sure I could, not that I couldn't pull it off. I just didn't know how to do that. I've never done that before. Yeah. Which was cool. So yeah, that I totally, I was really surprised when you called me though, cause I wasn't expecting it or I, it's not that I didn't think it would happen at some point. It's just that I guess people always have that experience when something happens like, Whoa, it just, just happened. Suddenly everything happened. And it's like, yeah, but it was also seven months later.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Which is a long time.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, Yeah, it was really
SPEAKER_02:cool. And then... I don't even know that we hung out a different time. We were kind of talking on the phone sometimes. And you and I, if we get on the phone, it's two or three hours. It's absurd. There's no two
SPEAKER_01:minutes. It was also a lot about Rob. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, yeah,
SPEAKER_01:Rob. One of my favorite people. I think that it was so profound for me when you called me. I remember telling my brother and my sister... or my brother-in-law was like, whoa, remember how, because they knew I'd had all these revelations. Of course, I was trying to get them to do mushrooms and probably will at some point. But I remember how Miriam said she was going to do death work. And then, well, yeah, it turns out, you know, she pretty much met somebody right after who she's seemingly madly in love with and also who is dying. And it was hard to reprocess really, honestly, because all of a sudden, Also, I had this very, very clear sense of this is why you shouldn't keep going if you're not sure and you're dating because you're in the way.
SPEAKER_03:You're
SPEAKER_01:in the way of somebody else having a relationship that they might really be grateful. And I've had that happen to me a couple of times where I've actually two or three, you're the third of three people I've gone out with where they met somebody right after and they're like, this is the one, you know, in different ways. And I think that's, I know it's complicated for you given Rob's situation, but I do think like in terms of the connection. It's incredible. And so I had a sense of... It's weird. It's actually given me the ability to be really... hopeful or grateful or excited on behalf of someone else because it's like, that's so cool that you found somebody you really want to be with. And that like, I'm glad that I can sort of celebrate that from a distance and I don't need to be a part of it. It's just cool.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And
SPEAKER_01:that's like not easy to... come to that place of acceptance, I guess. I don't know. Anyway, I'm not explaining it. No, I think you're
SPEAKER_02:explaining it great. I think there's that. There's, I mean, I think in general, that's like a very important, particularly in like Los Angeles, like it's a very important skill to be able to authentically be really happy for some money and success or whatever. It's like a lot of people can't
SPEAKER_01:do that. They cannot do it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I think I sort of naturally do that. But yeah, there are certain things like patience and like that you can a little bit work on and
SPEAKER_01:be like, yeah, for sure. Sure. You really can.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It happened to me recently where I ran into somebody I dated four or five times and she was like, I found this great person. I was like, oh, that's so cool. It was great. Well, it's
SPEAKER_02:twofold. There's one that, like you said, you get out of the way so that they can be with somebody else. But there's also... you and I now have a totally different relationship. It's great.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_02:And like I said, there was these moments while we were dating that I felt self-conscious and like, that's not part of our relationship now.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And so in a sense, there's a way in which we can be deeper this way.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, totally. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And there is like a certain kind of like obligation or pressure. Like there's just aspects of full-on romantic relationships that are damaging to intimacy sometimes, oddly. Yeah. There is a way in which friendship can be dynamic and exciting and very
SPEAKER_01:close. It can be freer because there's not the constraint of... sometimes maybe how you need to be around other people because you're in this committed relationship in this way. I think some of it is that there's a lot of freedom.
SPEAKER_02:And also just revealing, I don't know, there's some honesty
SPEAKER_01:that
SPEAKER_02:maybe you hide from the people you're
SPEAKER_01:dating
SPEAKER_02:because you don't want to hurt their feelings because you're supposed to be their everything or something.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I mean, that's a, if there's anything I've learned in the last couple of years, that's probably number one is like, I want to like not be fully honest because I'm afraid they're going to feel hurt.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And sometimes that's real. It's like you don't need to necessarily tell somebody about everybody that you want to have sex with or
SPEAKER_01:whatever. Well, yeah. I think I've also learned to be... It's interesting. I've also learned to not share everything, to your point. Yeah. But I do think that is... That's something that was... has been hard for me, I think. I think if you're a people pleaser, you really want to
SPEAKER_02:be
SPEAKER_01:pretty happy. Yeah. Oh, me too. Me too. And so when you're in this situation, it's much easier to just be like, oh yeah, like whatever. Like I don't have a, there's no constraint in that way.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And it's fun to, it is fun to talk to people about who they're dating. It's like interesting and it's like a big part
SPEAKER_01:of people's lives. You've always got stuff going on that's interesting in that way. So,
SPEAKER_02:yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That's why you're doing this podcast.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, fully. And I will continue to get new guests. So, We were talking on the phone. I don't really remember hanging
SPEAKER_01:out. I don't think I talked too much. I think I saw you that one time.
SPEAKER_02:But we did have like some like epic two-hour phone conversations. Like a couple of those or a few of those. And then you called me and I was like in an Uber coming from my mechanic and I couldn't even totally hear you. About
SPEAKER_01:Charlie.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And you told me that Charlie died.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. which was the november 28th i um yeah i don't know i don't know what day that was i don't know if it was like the day after or that day it might have even been that you know it happened like on um i guess that was the sunday after thanksgiving so it's not even been a year yet um Um, yeah, I, I don't even know how to start talking about it, I guess. I'm, I guess I can just say the facts. I think it'd be helpful. Maybe I was, um, I'd been in, um, Rome. I was with my sister, her husband, the girls dating at the time, Christine, and we got back, um, um that saturday night i guess and um i mean to be honest like it was a really really incredible trip it was very connected um you know, the way our kids typically go back and forth, they're usually, they were with me two weeks at a time and then my ex two weeks at a time. And I actually planned to come back on that Saturday so I could catch the last day of their sort of Thanksgiving vacation and sort of like see them and just go to lunch or whatever. And I went to lunch with Will and I had been texting Charlie and he had an earlier flight. And so we couldn't quite make it work. I was going to try to pick him up and take him to the airport. He's like, oh, you know, I'm already on the way. And so I ended up... To be honest, I had one of the greatest trips of my life and I had a great, great, great time with Christine. We were really enjoying the sort of moment of just traveling. And... Long story short, we... Um, I, I went to lunch with Will and Will was like, you know, I'm really proud of Charlie. He's, he's, he's, Charlie's is 13 months older and he is, was 20 and Will is, or 19 and Will's 18. And, um, and so I texted Charlie. I was like, that's really cool. I had a great lunch with Will. I sound like he's really proud of, you know, proud of you for kind of some stuff that you guys were talking through this weekend or this week. And, um, Charlie's like, thanks, you know, how, how was your trip? And we texted a little bit and, um, I got a call at three in the morning that he had killed himself. He was at Santa Clara and he basically jumped off a building. I I think that I would call it an accident. He was drinking a lot. He actually, I don't know if I've ever said this to many people at all, but he recorded a couple of Snapchat memories, like two minutes long. It was basically his sort of suicide note was a video. And it was really clear he was not doing well. And I think it was probably a combination of anti-depression meds and drinking way too much. And he just, he was on the phone with his therapist for a couple hours before he just made a very, very dumb decision. And I think he was having a hard time with kids at school. He has never felt, he never fit in well with a lot of groups and he got, he would create a lot of negative attention and then that would, he would feel shame about it. And he would create these sort of spirals where he would sort of act out. And I think, I think this was one of those things that I, a kid can do and think it's almost like he's getting back at the people that were, you know, not accepting him in some way. And I don't even know how to talk about this. I mean, it's just so overwhelming. I called you and I, I ended up I know that, I don't remember even, it's such a blur. I don't think I saw you at all until later, but I gave a talk, I gave a memorial talk like a week later and, And I remember that you listened to it or watched you live stream. And so you watched it. And I remember you called me maybe a couple of days after that. And you said, do you want me to walk you through my experience of you giving this advice? you know, eulogy. And it was, honestly, it was one of the most helpful things. I, I just, it was in all of that time. I think one of the most profound experiences was you walking me through your notes and you had detailed notes, like minute by minute of your experience of watching me and Will and Nathaniel talk. And I, I think it was so powerful because I felt so seen and I felt like Charlie was seen and I felt like he was a very, very unique and unusual and in some ways dysfunctional and in some ways broken and loving and whimsical and somewhat unstable kid. And I think he... I tried really hard to capture that, and I felt a duty. I felt a really serious... spiritual duty to communicate who Troy was. And I feel like he was always an outsider. And so we were very involved in these, you know, Palisades community that's not, doesn't do well with outsiders in a lot of ways. It's very insular. And I think he was never quite a part of it. And so I found myself explaining one of my kids to people who should have known him better, you know? And so I felt like you really, I felt really cared for. So anyway, sorry, it's like a lot to sort of dump to But it was really profound. And you never met him. And I think there just were a lot of things sort of fell out of that. I think it was extremely difficult, obviously, for everyone. But it sort of blew up my relationship with the girl I was dating. And I think I realized later, it's like lots of really stable families can't make it through. something like that much less somebody you've been dating for you know months um but I felt really careful and I really appreciate that you were so present and it was like I don't think it was really it wasn't much in person until later you know but yeah it was I don't know I mean sort of that theme of I hadn't thought about this before but it's like the theme of death sort of didn't really um Maybe it was kind of there since we went to Joshua Tree, you know, and it just, I don't know. Obviously, I'm still working through a lot of this. So I guess, like, it is interesting. I feel like you're, we connect on humor a lot, even now. in ways I can't quite explain to people, I think I really get your sense of humor and I think vice versa. And I think, I remember when we went to Marc Maron, you took me to Marc Maron and he was talking about his loss of his, was it, I guess it was his wife or his girlfriend. Girlfriend, yeah. Girlfriend, yeah. And just, I mean, I've been following that quite a bit since it happened, I think, because he's so articulate and so open and it's really powerful and it's really profound and I remember going with you and you were like you need to go and see this and then and you I think I even like changed a flight to make sure I could make it and I really wanted to to go and be present with it and it was it was one of those things where you just wanted to talk more about her passing and her life and his humor around it and the joke. And I found myself at moments, you know, making jokes that I feel like I've only really told you because I didn't think anybody else could handle it. Like the other day I told my brother that I had thought of some, but I was scared to tell him. I was like, I know my audience. I don't think he's going to think this is funny. And so I don't know. There's also this weird sort of deep comfort in having someone who could go with you through the process of actually even finding humor in something. So, I mean, I can't even think of something worse. I mean, I would much rather have been myself that died. I would much rather have been, you know, Almost anything I can imagine would be better than losing a kid. And I didn't, everyone, if you think about it, it's like on paper, this sort of who can imagine. The problem is I kind of could imagine. It's sort of like the really scary thing for me is that the feeling you think you would have and the way you think it would feel, it does feel like that. It's like people can imagine it. And I think they don't want to imagine they can because they want to tell themselves it's this categorically different thing that they'll never experience and it's not and it's it's sort of closer than you might think and I really felt I don't know I've gone through a lot in the last year around it but I do really appreciate that you've been able to like sit with me in some like pretty dark and quiet moments and also some like weirdly funny and inappropriate moments about it so yeah thanks I guess
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think the first like two or three weeks for various reasons, I think, because like your parents were around and your ex was around, like there was just reasons why it felt, I mean, I sort of couldn't have gone to the funeral in person and like kind of couldn't be around initially. And then after that, we did start seeing each other much more regularly. And
SPEAKER_01:I would just like come over and. Because I felt like you were getting it or some way that I, not everybody could. So that's why you, I mean, I guess it's somewhat to the extent that you literally had the profound revelation that you should be doing death work, you should. It's like obvious. It's very obvious, you know, in terms of how that played out. You're not like, oh, I'm good at this. Let me get my, you know, care kit and show up. It was just like, I'm here. So, I don't
SPEAKER_02:know. And I think the, you know, I think no matter what, it's like very, very beautiful and an honor to hear you talk about it. Like I, yeah, that was like very, It's very stunning. Yeah. And the reason why it kind of does actually make some sense in terms of this podcast is because we have gotten much closer around that. And I think I already felt quite close to you. It was almost like, not that we were allowed to, but it was like, now we can go in on another level.
SPEAKER_01:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02:Like it is part of the story of our friendship.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I agree. I mean, it's interesting. You've met my kids since then, really. They're a little bit like not sure what to do with your level of energy when you come around. And Nathaniel's a little bit like, what's going on? I don't know. It's cool. So I do appreciate that. you've become more part of my life in a way that's not. I remember thinking and saying this at some point, but I was like, there's like not a, I wouldn't have a dating relationship where I was like, oh, I'm sorry, I can't bring Miriam along in the relationship. I need to, you're not going anywhere. It's like, it's not, it's like a non-negotiable for me. I love that. Which I think is cool. And also that's something I didn't know I could say.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And just go, oh, this is important.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know, So, yeah, so I don't know. Thank you for, yeah. being there in some crisis.
SPEAKER_02:And I think it is also sort of like that post mushroom. Like we, our, our friendship is like transcended romance
SPEAKER_00:in
SPEAKER_02:so many ways. Like when I stayed with you in New York and we like brushed our teeth together and you know, there's just so many, and I've like, like wingman to you and being another woman.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. That worked out pretty well for everybody.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. That person is great. So, Yeah, I think that there's like... I don't think I totally understood that as clearly before our relationship. It's like so clear that like things don't need to be a particular way. And at some point I definitely like specifically wanted to be with you in a specific kind of way. Now it's like, there's so many ways to be very, very deeply connected
SPEAKER_01:to you. Yeah, it's cool. It's like, it's helpful in terms of thinking about what friendships can look like and you know, not that all romantic relationships that end, we'll turn into something later. I think it's definitely a particularly, you have a particular aptitude for that that most people don't. And I think I do too. Yes, I was
SPEAKER_02:gonna say that.
SPEAKER_01:It's because we're both good at it, but I don't think it's just that, but certainly that makes it easier. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I think it's like a kind of expanded view in general.
SPEAKER_00:It's
SPEAKER_02:like it doesn't, we kind of were able to like pivot and maybe not be stubborn about things being a particular way.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It's interesting. And it will probably continue to shift. I'm also very honest with you. It doesn't not happen very much, but if there's something that a little bit bothers me, I just say it to you.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah. I really appreciate that. I mean, we've had a couple of those recently where you're like, hey, this kind of hurt in this way or this. And I really appreciate that you weren't afraid to say those kind of things because it makes it, I can trust if there's something there that you're going to say,
SPEAKER_02:which is cool. 100%. There's nothing, I think, at this point that I've hidden from you in terms of like what i feel about us
SPEAKER_01:it's cool
SPEAKER_02:yeah
SPEAKER_01:i'm i'm just laughing because it's like i don't even know how you go from that was a journey the stuff we just went through
SPEAKER_02:yeah this will be a two-part episode
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I mean, I think like the thing to end on is like, is gratitude, is like appreciation. Like I do think we're very lucky that we have this friendship.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I think there's a lot in it. I think there's so much depth to it. I think I can, yeah, like a lot more can and will happen. I like see us being friends for a long
SPEAKER_00:time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And I'm like, I'm really here for you. I think you know that, but like I like fully have your back.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, thank you. I feel like one of the things that was really hard for me growing up so evangelical is this world where you're like, oh, people who don't live in this belief system. And this sounds insane to say, but it's interesting to probably you'll be like, how is this possible? But I think it's this idea of like, oh, yeah, those relationships out in the world are not they're not really real.
SPEAKER_03:Oh,
SPEAKER_01:those are that's not real community. That's not real connect. Only this group has real connection and community. And that's probably one of the biggest lies I grew up with. And I think it's sad to have lived like that and been so... unwilling to see the obvious ways in which humans are just humans and people are just people. I thought
SPEAKER_02:you were going to say that those people are not good people. Like a Jewish girl who grew up in Cambridge and lived in New York is like a bad person
SPEAKER_01:or something. Bad in some sort of spiritual judgment from God way, yes. But I think even worse, it's like, oh, those relationships are like, there's something about them that they feel good, but they're not really based in some sort of like ultimate God's truths So there's something phony. And I know that sounds absurd to even say out loud, but it's like a subtext of this like Christian culture that... just rots everything.
SPEAKER_02:It's so interesting because like there's like truth in it. It's not just like, oh, it's bad, which is like nebulous. I mean, truth is also nebulous, but like the fact that it's like untrue is so, it's such a dagger.
SPEAKER_01:It's like a capital T.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's like, it's a flimsy thing you can just shoo away. It's not, it can't sustain you. Wow, that's super interesting. What a cool thing to come I mean, I generally think it's, even though it has been very difficult for you to like step away from earlier incarnations of your life, it's fun to watch and it's exciting.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Because you're sort of constantly growing and learning and having epiphanies and recalibrating. You know, it's good TV. It's good friend TV.
SPEAKER_01:Right, right. That's cool. That's good to hear. I mean, I'm happy to provide more content. I think
SPEAKER_02:you might need your own podcast of your adventures.
SPEAKER_01:Like real time.
SPEAKER_02:Chad has a lot of exciting stories.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I left out a lot.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I mean, yes, I think everyone does. I think the focus
SPEAKER_01:with the folks should be more on you.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I don't mean me, but I think the focus is on us. And I think we've done that. I think we've done the stuff that's us, but I will just say as a tantalizing little teaser that Chad's life is really interesting and exciting and dynamic and yeah, he's also like killing it in his career.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you. You're welcome.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I feel like a million dollars. Do you want to like think for two seconds if there's anything? Oh, you know what I did want to say? I hung out with someone just a couple nights ago and I told you on the phone yesterday that I love our friendship. I've said that to you before. I really love our friendship so much that he said, well, I know you love the acting, but you could really make a career with this desktop. blah, blah, blah. And just like that phrase, the acting like is condescending. He's someone who's like heavily in the industry. Hope you'll be on my podcast, brother. What's
SPEAKER_01:the date threshold? How many do you have to have?
SPEAKER_02:One.
SPEAKER_01:One? Okay.
SPEAKER_02:No, I'm going to ask Christian who I went to pizza with in fifth grade once.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah, but I didn't know if there was some sort of like divisor being the number of years in the past it was versus like... That's
SPEAKER_02:hilarious. Yeah. No, I don't do math anymore. Okay. No, no, no. Anything romantic on any level. Because there's always something to talk about.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, dude, a first date, you could write a novel about every first date.
SPEAKER_01:What
SPEAKER_02:you learn, it's like you learn more in the Well,
SPEAKER_01:you
SPEAKER_02:could. A lot of people could. surprising and cool and speaks to your open-mindedness that you're not like, but what TV show are you on? You're like, you're clearly excited creatively and you're doing a lot of things and you're trying and like you're having fun. And also like you like, I remember like early on, you were like, I love your acting reel, which sounds like a small thing, but I think a lot of people are really snobby
SPEAKER_01:and
SPEAKER_02:really are sort of like, but what have you done?
SPEAKER_01:And you're saying that the use of the word, that extra article could have ruined that entire romantic relationship.
SPEAKER_02:Well, we'll
SPEAKER_01:see,
SPEAKER_02:Josh. But yeah, like I think, yeah, I still think that's extremely funny. But I think it's like, yeah, there's just a stink to it, which I don't, I think part of the reason why I can be friends with you is because you don't put a stink on the things that I'm excited about. about that maybe don't make sense or don't make me money or, you know, like, I just think that there's a way in which there's like a friendship support. And like, you were talking about my family not respecting me or not understanding me. And there's something very healing about having somebody who I would think would follow that, those rubrics of like, what is success? And I, I love that you, I love, and it's surprising that you don't have that snobby thing of, and it might be that coming out of relationship, religion coming out of the South. Like it might be that you're like, now that I've seen that some of that stuff doesn't make sense, I'm just going to let go of it. But I also just think it is who you maybe were like born to be. And it's so useful because it means that people are going to be more themselves in front of you. So you're going to get really good versions of people because they're not going to be like, sorry, I'm not such and such on LinkedIn or whatever.
SPEAKER_01:I think that that's like, that's become easier for me because of getting, I think that there were, there was more hierarchy. And when I was in that religious world, I do think There's a lot of... I think it also sort of pushes... There's a lot of spillover effect from being in what I think is kind of a toxic situation because you... I used to be very judgy. And... it's because it was how you knew whether or not you were on the right path. And you can't just do that just in some sort of like spiritual vertical and not have that fall over into your relationship with your children and your friends and your coworkers. And so I think I'm very different than I used to be in that way. And I think that's genuine, but I don't think that you would have had the same experiences of me like 10 years ago.
SPEAKER_02:And isn't it more fun for you?
SPEAKER_01:Way more fun. It's more fun
SPEAKER_02:for me.
SPEAKER_01:Like it's great. Yeah. I think it's not like, doesn't mean I don't have a ton of like relational problems and character flaws that I'm working on. But I do think that feeling of being more open to people's experience is absolutely inversely correlated to how religious I was.
SPEAKER_02:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:So I don't know. Maybe that's not everybody's experience. That was certainly mine.
SPEAKER_02:It's fun
SPEAKER_01:for me.
SPEAKER_02:Like really fun. And I feel very supported.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I love the podcast. The podcasting. The podcasting.
SPEAKER_02:I know you love the podcasting, but you could really make more money being a hedge fund manager.
SPEAKER_01:Did I even say that right? Sure.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Anyway. Okay. So I really care about you. I'm really happy we're friends. I really appreciate you giving yourself and your honesty to this. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Love you too. I
SPEAKER_02:love you. I didn't even say it. Oh, I remember that was something that, oh, what a good way to end. I know. We said that to each other. Is this the magic of... This is the magic of improv.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, improv. Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Is that like, we never could have come to that perfect button that the audience is like, what's the fucking button? The button is that, so I like wrote a bunch of things down during mushrooms and we were coming off and I was reading them to you and we like decided that we were going to break up. And then you said, I really love you. And I think you were even like, sorry. But like, I, yeah, like I think that was, that was the first time we said, I love you because I love you supposed to mean like, and so on. So we're going to go deeper into this relationship. That's another example of like romance intimacy. It's like, I can now say to you, I love you so much. I love you. Like, and it's not like, Oh no. Yeah. Oh no. Oh my God. That's another person that I dated that I don't know if I'm going to have him on, but I told him I love him. And he goes, Oh no. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's great. It's amazing. Oh, it's incredible. That might be the worst response. I love you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Tim. Um, so make up for it. Yes. But so, yes, that is so funny that the first time we said, I love you. It was like right out. Okay, I loved that. I am so amazed at how open he is and how supportive he's been of me. me and of this project and Chad I just want to thank you so so so much for being episode one and thank you to everyone who's listening there are a lot more episodes so get ready and if you want to do some sleuthing for me I definitely have some white whale guests that I do not know how to get in touch with including Eric Greenside from Florida who spent your summers living with your grandparents in Boston who kissed me at a camp dance while Stairway to Heaven played if you're If you're out there, call me.