“It Was A Good Thing For My Marriage” – Dating In An Open Relationship

Host Miriam Katz and Christopher talk open relationships, stretching the bounds of comfort, and closure.  A tender one.

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Audio engineering by Jeremy Emery and Lamps Lampanella

Theme song melody and vocals by Miriam Katz; Instrumentals by Jon Steinmeier

Logo designed by Anna Nguyen and Kathryn Davis

Photo by Dana Patrick

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Transcript

Miriam 0:00

Hi, welcome back to the Ex Appeal podcast. So happy to have you here. This episode is really interesting. I don't want to give too much away because everything kind of unfolds in the conversation, but I will vaguely say it's about stretching the bounds of a relationship and then recalibrating. And for me, it's about really believing that someone did their best. And I also think it's interesting here that intention really matters. I could state the facts of what happened and spin it in a particular way, because this experience took place with a really, really, really nice person. The good feeling is really what lasts. And yeah, this was a very nuanced situation, which is why I really love the podcast format, because we got into everything and didn't just summarize or simplify what happened. Yeah, Christopher rules. And as I say to him in the podcast, there's a real purity between us. So I hope you feel that and I hope you like it. Okay, enjoy. You liked drugs, you like God. You like drugs, you like God. You like drugs and you like God. Such a delight to see you.

Christopher 1:32

It's a delight to see you too.

Miriam 1:33

It is so fun to see you. It's funny.

Christopher 1:37

It's

Miriam 1:38

very, very funny that this is the first time I'm seeing you.

Christopher 1:44

Yeah. I don't, how long? I don't even, I'm struggling to place that. I mean, it was right

Miriam 1:51

before COVID. So it was three years ago. It was February of 2020. Wow. Yeah. I really appreciate you coming. I almost feel like you coming is part of the story because and we'll say everything, but there was a lot of testing stuff out.

Christopher 2:16

And

Miriam 2:17

so it's cool for you to maybe go up against or maybe even surpass a little boundary that you've made up for yourself. I think of you as someone who would be great at this and would be great at examining things and talking about feelings and being an artistic person. This is how I think of you. So in a way, it's cool. That was sort of part of the reason why, I mean, for a bunch of reasons, I really wanted you on. But I think that was also part of it was sort of like, yeah, let's step into power, baby. I

Christopher 2:49

mean, a big part of that for me is that, and this is sort of maybe the whole experience, but part of the reason I'm willing to do this, I think, is because you create a comforting environment. Cool. Yeah. Cool, cool,

Miriam 3:01

cool. So we met at a job I had, I'm just going to say that. That would be really funny if I was like, this exact thing at this address. Yeah. It was my first job outside of the job I had for many, many years.

Christopher 3:15

I didn't know that.

Miriam 3:16

Yeah. I think I did a teeny bit of freelance. No, but maybe I think that was actually my first office that I went into after going into one office for so many years in New York. And I walked in and I was like, what is happening? Why is everybody so hot? I was just so overwhelmed. I was like, what is going on? And the first day we all went out to lunch and they paid for lunch and everyone was being funny and hot like and also I was like well they're all gay like definitely because they're also well dressed and hot

Christopher 3:51

not the first time that that was like a reaction actually

Miriam 3:55

yes the gay thing or the hot thing

Christopher 3:57

oh the gay thing yeah but have people

Miriam 3:59

been like everyone in this office is hot before

Christopher 4:01

not that I had heard cool

Miriam 4:03

did you have a sense of that that it was like a nice looking crew I

Christopher 4:08

knew that everyone had a nice sense of like you know or ability to present themselves and to some degree that felt like to kind of to go with the flow or maybe that was a part of how you were kind of brought into the company was like oh you have like an aesthetic

Miriam 4:29

ah yes that

Christopher 4:30

makes sense I don't know that I fit into that very well but you know for what I was doing there I don't know that that was quite the same need. But yeah, I think I did think everyone was like, oh, everyone dresses really nice. And I stepped up my game probably when I got that job.

Miriam 4:49

That's very funny. This was very exciting, you know? And also it was like, yeah, I don't think I'd worked in a Los Angeles office. And yeah, you all, what did you, what did you play at four o'clock?

Christopher 5:04

Oh God. Football. Yeah. You threw a football. Let's call it that. There's a very distinctive name. Okay, we don't have to do that. I know I'm

Miriam 5:10

saying I actually didn't even know. But there was all these different things. It was like everyone went to lunch, everyone got coffee together, everyone threw a football in the parking lot. It was so cute. People played music, people drank beers. It was a good time. I

Christopher 5:27

want to add real quick that if you perceived us all as hot and stylish, you working there is also probably a reflection of that to you. Thank you so much.

Miriam 5:38

So it was like exciting and there was just like a bunch of hotties and I was doing my work just like flirting around having a good time but it was a very temporary job and I didn't even really always need to go into the office and yeah it was there was no like commitment to the job because it was for a project. And so that I think probably even added to the flirty nature of it. Cause there wasn't this feeling of, I can't date anyone here because that just wasn't true. Like I wasn't working there. You know, these were not my coworkers.

Christopher 6:19

Yeah. And then that, that door probably would have been like very open. You know, I think that, and not that I knew of a lot of like dating but dating going on inside the office, but it definitely didn't seem like there were any barriers preventing things like that. Yeah,

Miriam 6:33

I think that might even be my own rule though. If there's like an ongoing situation, I try to not date within it. Yeah, that makes sense. Because then if something changes, then you're really stuck in there and that doesn't seem that fun to me. Like I don't date within like the improv world.

Christopher 6:50

I mean, it seems like a smart move either way.

Miriam 6:52

Yeah,

Christopher 6:53

yeah. Just no, I mean, a little shade. And there's like a little what? A little shade, I guess, on my part. but I never meant. Yeah.

Miriam 6:59

Oh, were you throwing shade on that?

Christopher 7:01

I was lightly. Yeah. I don't know why though. Maybe implicit distrust towards the improv community. I'm not sure

Miriam 7:07

why. Oh, I get it. I didn't actually catch the shade. So I'm glad you clarified the shade. And also I could have given another example of like a place that like a workplace or a, I don't know, hobby place.

Christopher 7:20

I already realized I'm like derailing you from. No,

Miriam 7:23

there's everything's cool. And I, when I was like 24, one or 22, I hooked up with a guy in my building. There's only three units in the apartment in East Village, and it was like the dumbest idea. So I'm sure I had that and a few other examples that I was just like, oh, no, no, no. I don't want to deal. But anyway, it was not that kind of situation. It was very freeing and fun. And then I did end up dating somebody from that office.

Christopher 7:54

You

Miriam 7:54

know that.

Christopher 7:55

You gotta know that. Wait, No, no, please.

Miriam 8:00

You definitely, we have definitely talked about this because at some point you were like, I'm going to text him.

Christopher 8:04

Did it start with a J? Yes, it did. Yeah, okay. Okay, I'm catching up now. It's all coming back. Yes.

Miriam 8:11

The coding. Cool. There's going to be one sleuth who's like, it's an office in Los Angeles. And people were good looking. I think I know. I think I know. Okay. So.

Christopher 8:23

The game of catch would have like instantly. Yes.

Miriam 8:26

They all got coffee. They went, they ate lunch there. Okay. So then I feel like that was in 2016. Maybe 17.

Christopher 8:39

Yeah. I'm never good at this, but that sounds right to me. That was around

Miriam 8:43

the time that I left. Okay. My other job. So I think it was 2016 or 2017. And then. And you and I were friendly. There was a funny thing where the very first time we hung out at work, you were going to drive to San Francisco after work. Oh, wow. And you were like, do you want to come?

Christopher 9:04

Yeah. Yeah, what was the context there? That seems so out of character for me to just blanket invite you. Or not blanket, like I invited everyone, but for me to directly be like, Miriam, do you want to come to this?

Miriam 9:17

Well, I think it was maybe a little bit lighter than that. I don't think it was like you you know but I think it was sort of like you were just being fun and you didn't actually think I was going to because I was already at work I wasn't really gonna go because I needed a toothbrush or whatever but I actually for a second considered it

Christopher 9:39

I think I would have not said that to many people no no no yeah I 100% would have but I don't I think that everything you're talking about like about that office culture you you like you embodied that like my recollection of that was instantly you just like fitting right in and it's all like you know shooting the shit and having fun

Miriam 10:00

yeah

Christopher 10:01

which is cool so that's probably why I uh from what I perceive out of character would have been like yeah come to San Francisco

Miriam 10:07

yeah which is fun so it was like I didn't have to go to San Francisco for us for that to already feel like a tiny bit of an adventure like that already was sort of like a fun like brain opening like whoa what if you know alternate universe like I totally went to San Francisco

Christopher 10:26

yeah it was like early stage of us being like oh cool like we get along you know like this is like we're able to like dialogue easily

Miriam 10:34

yes and I think there was probably some jokes

Christopher 10:37

oh yeah must have been

Miriam 10:39

I think that you don't invite somebody in a car if you haven't made a joke together

Christopher 10:42

yeah I mean my memory of that time was only jokes between anyone there like very little very little seriousness at all

Miriam 10:51

yeah

Christopher 10:52

like surface level humor which was fine you know like that at the time was perfect

Miriam 10:57

i didn't feel like it was bullshit though

Christopher 11:02

maybe you did i mean i've been there longer you know there's a lot of nuance for me but um i agree i don't i don't i think because i've definitely had

Miriam 11:10

conversations that were like that are nothing and it felt fun

Christopher 11:15

no there there was a lot of fun there there definitely was and i think that you brought out a lot of the goodness there. So it makes sense that, you know, the look back on that moment wouldn't be like an empty fun.

Miriam 11:26

Yeah. Yeah. And then you invited me to a party at your house, maybe like eight or nine months later. It was definitely like after I hadn't been there for a second. So it was nice that you invited me. It was sort of like you remembered who I was because we probably hadn't like talked in a while. And I went and had a super good time.

Christopher 11:49

Yeah. Yeah. I remember that being a good time too.

Miriam 11:51

Yeah. Hung out with like a bunch of people from your office. Someone from your office was his, this is not going to be interesting, but his grandmother was married to my high school boyfriend's mother. That is interesting. I said that more quickly than I thought. I thought it was going to take like 20 minutes to explain, but it was interesting and fun. And there was just, yeah. And it was like cool to see your house and I think you did a good job. And yeah, I mean, again, like, the people in that office are a good time so I had a good time even though I didn't really really know anyone at the party and I didn't bring anyone which was a good choice I think because it meant that I like entered in

Christopher 12:31

yeah you met a lot of people outside of work too yeah there were a lot of different different you know parts of my life kind of came together for that very rare party because I think that was the first and probably only time I ever had a gathering so but yeah and once again I think this is a reoccurring thing that you're you're very good at just connecting with people. Because I recall you just blending in with everyone very effectively. Cool.

Miriam 12:57

Effectively.

Christopher 12:58

Effectively. That's how I see the world.

Miriam 13:00

Excellent.

Christopher 13:02

Effective social engagement. Effective podcast.

Miriam 13:08

And, you know, maybe that was 2017 or 18. And then just to say that it was maybe a year and a for two years later that you got in touch with me. So I hadn't talked to you in years. You sent me a Facebook message. I don't think we had each other's numbers.

Christopher 13:28

Yeah, probably. I don't think so either. But I do remember that Facebook message.

Miriam 13:33

Oh, so tell me what you remember.

Christopher 13:34

Oh, I set myself up there. I remember sending that Facebook message. I more so remember the emotions around it. I remember just feeling very comfortable sending the message. And I don't think I sent anything too special. I think it was just like hey it's kind of coming back now but yeah mostly to my to my memory it was just like oh i think i can say hello and that's going to be fine

Miriam 13:58

yes so you said i don't know exactly what you said we could look it up but i i think you asked to hang out and i think my response was like yeah cool totally like maybe in a couple weeks or you know just like the way that like someone that you're not very good friends with not even blowing off i actually am really good it, making plans. And I love hanging out with people I don't know that well. And I always really liked you. So I was definitely like, cool, totally. But I wasn't like, let's make this happen ASAP. Like, I think you might have sent me that message on, say, a Thursday, making that up. But you were like, how about this weekend? And I was like, uh, I mean, I'm going to a I guess I could meet you after. And you're like, yeah, you're like, yes, that'd be great. And I'm like, okay. And you did say there's something I want to talk to you about. And I didn't know what that meant. And that was mysterious, but it didn't, you know, like you are, I don't know that you would see yourself this way, but like you are kind of calm. There's something about you that's a little bit like relaxed. So even though you said something like there's something I want to talk to you about, I think the vibe was like, Like, yeah, there's something we could talk about. You know, like it was so, even though it was in Facebook Messenger, it was definitely not like aggressive. You are very not aggressive. And

Christopher 15:33

so. So I appreciate, by the way, that, you know, you're not like interpreting any of what, you know, what I'm presenting is like.

Miriam 15:41

No way. I mean, that's just not who you are. And I think probably something about the wording was clear that like, there's nothing intense going on. But you wanted to hang out soon. And there was something specific you want to talk to me about. And I didn't know what that could be about. Because I felt like it was something personal. Because if it was a work thing, you would have said exactly what it was. Yeah, you would have been like, I mean, we won't give an example, because we're keeping you anonymous. But um, you know, that's like interesting. And like I said, like, I always really liked you. So I was like, cool. Yes, I can make that happen and like leave this sound bath. birthday party and come meet you at a bar in Echo Park. What?

Christopher 16:24

No, it's memory. I've never really thought of myself as a great person for recall. So I'm appreciating how we're going through this because it's nice for me, actually.

Miriam 16:37

Oh, cool. That's great. Love that. Thanks for that. So we meet at this bar. I'm not going to name which one, but do you remember which bar? Like just in the high school. And I do remember that a friend of mine was there. And so we were having this like good conversation and I don't actually remember at what point he stepped in, but he was being really like negative

Christopher 17:06

and depressed. And you

Miriam 17:08

and I were laughing because it was so funny because you and I were having like a super good time and being very jovial. And then this like really depressed guy literally would just sat between it. Like it was, and then we're like, laughing at how funny that was. It felt like a TV show. I was like, what? Because you and I were like, like so exuberant. And then it was like, oh, fucking, okay.

Christopher 17:29

Yeah, it was like sad clown energy. Totally.

Miriam 17:31

And it didn't bring us down, but it was very funny how different it was from how we felt because we were feeling buzzy. So we sat down, I think for like an hour and just talked about life and caught up and

Christopher 17:48

I

Miriam 17:49

don't know, just had fun and made jokes. And I think it was really nice.

Christopher 17:52

Yeah, it was really easy.

Miriam 17:53

Yes. Easy like it would have been if I had driven with you to San Francisco.

Christopher 17:58

Yeah.

Miriam 17:58

So about an hour in probably, I was like, hey, so what do you want to talk to me about? Do you want to say what you said? I mean, yeah.

Christopher 18:10

Sure. Yeah. And feel free to like correct. But I mean, I think that the core of it was hey I'm beginning to explore an open relationship and I'm not sure why I felt like you know you would be a safe person to reach out to and to talk with about that I guess and obviously there was a part of my brain that was like you know maybe you know Miriam could be a person I explore that with getting ahead of myself but that was in my head I

Miriam 18:42

think that was spoken I

Christopher 18:44

think that

Miriam 18:45

was spoken right away I think okay so one thing I should say is that the last time I had seen you, you were not married. And then when you sat down at the bar, you had a wedding ring. So it was like, okay. Because I think that maybe part of me was like, maybe he's asking me out. And then when you sat down, I was like, oh, he's not because he got married since the last time I saw him. And then an hour in, even at that point, you just said something like what you just said about like, you thought I'd be a good person to talk to about it. And I thought that was because you knew that for many years, I'd been in open relationships.

Christopher 19:20

I'm not sure if you had ever said that. I don't know if we ever got to that type of conversation before that moment. I want to say we didn't.

Miriam 19:30

Yeah, I didn't think that I had, but there's a world in which I totally casually mentioned it because that was what the conversation was. I don't think that's necessarily the thing, especially in a professional situation, but I don't think that's necessarily the kind of thing I wave around. But I thought maybe, when you said I'd be interested in talking to you about this. I definitely did not get the sense that you were saying, at least initially. And I'm interested in exploring that with you. I thought it was like, you know about this. I want to get your advice.

Christopher 20:02

I think that you, in my head, you were a fun person, seemingly responsible person, and a cool person, and just an easy person to talk to. And I probably just needed someone to talk to. And so you checked those boxes. And I Um, yeah, I think I just, you know, shot my shot.

Miriam 20:22

Yeah. I'm very happy to be that person for any audience, but also for you. Thank you so much. And, but you did pretty much right away. Cause I was sort of like, Oh, you want advice about this? And you were like, yes. And also I'm interested in exploring this with you. Wow. So bold of me. I think it was like, we were sitting there having a good time. I think there was almost no reason. to not say that. And I think maybe I also was like being a little bit flirty. I don't want to say that if that's inappropriate to like the scenario I thought we were in, but I guess, you know, maybe there was some sense that like, that would have been cool.

Christopher 21:02

Yeah. And I mean, I think a certain amount of like, you know, there's, there's a, there's a vague space around like, you know, a flirtation that is more so just people getting along and like having a good ability to speak to each other that is not necessarily the same as like, this is a very intense flirtation that, you know, is, is filled with a ton of subtext.

Miriam 21:26

Yeah. That was well put. Thank you. Yeah. Cool. Great. Good job. Um, I think once I understood that you meant me as a person to date outside of your relationship, my question was, are there any boundaries between Yeah.

Christopher 21:50

Because

Miriam 21:50

that was something that I'd asked somebody another time who was in an open relationship. And I remember he was like, yes, this can't go to a 10. It can go to a 2 or a 3. Oh,

Christopher 22:01

that's a smart thing to say. Maybe. I mean, it sounds like a boundary. It sounds like a clear boundary.

Miriam 22:06

Well, it was a clear boundary and also it made me not interested.

Christopher 22:09

Interesting.

Miriam 22:10

Okay. So I slept with him once because I had to. But I did not go on a date with him again or sleep with him again.

Christopher 22:17

Yeah.

Miriam 22:18

That was... His boundary was, made me have a boundary.

Christopher 22:23

Yeah. I understand.

Miriam 22:24

So you saying there is, you also had never done it before, but like in your heart, you were like, no, there's no boundary. And I was like, is there no physical boundary? And you were like, no. And I was like, is there an emotional boundary?

Christopher 22:39

You were like, no. Did I really say no to that? Yeah. Interesting.

Miriam 22:43

But I think you didn't know. I think you thought

Christopher 22:45

that. Yeah. I mean, I wasn't, I probably wasn't able to uh share it with myself but i i think i was probably flailing a little bit internally got it yeah um but apparently i kept it pretty composed

Miriam 23:00

i mean that's maybe like a tiny bit of your persona but i didn't get the sense that you were like i don't know what i'm doing i'm so confused what the hell's happening like it was more just like you definitely were like this is very exploratory i have not done this yet but like my wife and i are on the same page about this And she even knew that she had met me. She even knew that you were hanging out with me. Everything was very out in the open. And I think she even encouraged it, which is interesting.

Christopher 23:28

Yeah, a big part of the reason that any of this went forward was because from the get-go, I think her perception was like, oh yeah, I remember Miriam. Miriam is a very cool person. And for whatever reason, I think that there was a certain amount of confidence that we both felt in me reaching out to you.

Miriam 23:47

I love that. Yeah. It's also so different. Like, I think that is true and want to like honor what you said. And I also think there's something about exploring that with somebody that you like have had some kind of connection with instead of like going on Tinder as, you know, like it's so different.

Christopher 24:04

Yeah. I didn't, I mean, I really briefly experimented with that and just didn't, yeah, I didn't like it. It was hard for me. I kind of was in a relationship before all of that really has popped off. And so I missed the intro to that world. And in a lot of ways, it was a lot of work to, and I didn't want to go about it that way. Yeah.

Miriam 24:26

Yeah. Well, especially that kind of thing. I think it would be really different if you were just straight up dating, but to come with so much, I mean, it's very nuanced. Yeah.

Christopher 24:35

And I genuinely did want to talk about it. You know, I wanted, I did want someone I could like confide in and sort of, you know, I don't want to say assist in helping understand the Yeah. You know, but yeah.

Miriam 24:50

Yeah. I think that makes sense. I do remember you walked me home. There's a world in which we held hands.

Christopher 24:58

Interesting. Yeah, I could see it.

Miriam 24:59

I don't totally know if it was not till like the second time we hung out, but I vaguely think, I think we might have held hands on the way home.

Christopher 25:09

There was flirtation for sure. Oh, for sure. But holding

Miriam 25:11

hands is different. Like that is like defined a little bit. It's so different than flirting.

Christopher 25:16

No, it is.

Miriam 25:17

Because you can flirt with like a barista for two years and not hold hands with them. Like that's so, it's intimate.

Christopher 25:23

Totally.

Miriam 25:24

So I have a vague memory of that, but it could have been like a different walk home. Um, we hung out the next Sunday. Do you remember that? And at a different bar, do you remember the bar? Okay, cool. I just think it's like easy to have like the, to place it, you know?

Christopher 25:43

Yeah, no. And it, it's, it's a lot of it is rushing back.

Miriam 25:47

Cool. I love it. I'm surprised I remember so much.

Christopher 25:51

I think this is a skill of yours and maybe it's, you know, maybe it's what a lot of people share and sort of a deficit of mine. I'm not sure, but either way.

Miriam 26:02

I think I remember it for like emotionally important things.

Christopher 26:07

I also realize how this is not like, it's not like none of this was important or meaningful or significant to me. I'm like, I don't remember. No, no, no. I'm not even

Miriam 26:15

comparing. I'm truly saying I think there's many, I forget. I think there's probably years, like full years that I'm like, what?

Christopher 26:23

Oh man, same.

Miriam 26:24

But I think, yeah, this was like notable for me. And then I do, yeah, so we hung out. I was dating someone else. And I think I told you about it during that second date, maybe even the first time we hung out. And I don't know if I ever told you this, but in therapy, I called you angel and I called him devil.

Christopher 26:48

Whoa. Yeah. Yes.

Miriam 26:51

Because you were so nice. And he was kind of mean.

Christopher 26:55

That's disappointing. I'm sorry. You know, I mean, I'm sorry. That's

Miriam 26:59

very sweet of you. He just, there was just something like a little bad. about that situation but I was still like compelled by it but it was like a very interesting thing to be dating these two very different energies at the same time and that I think is the only thing I remember from that second date I also remember that I said that I didn't want to kiss you yet

Christopher 27:25

yeah I remember that

Miriam 27:28

and I feel like it was around that time that I shared a song with you and I I think you were listening to the song a lot.

Christopher 27:39

Yeah. Oh, man. I do remember that song. I don't remember what that song is. It was

Miriam 27:44

Take Me Down Easy.

Christopher 27:45

There we go. Yeah.

Miriam 27:47

I can't believe how much I

Christopher 27:49

remember this. I'm trying to block all the shame. Why? Because, you know. I don't think it's at all. I'm surprised. I'm impressed and appreciate.

Miriam 28:03

Yeah, cool.

Christopher 28:04

Yeah.

Miriam 28:05

No shame.

Christopher 28:06

Cool.

Miriam 28:06

Yeah. helpful yeah and then I think it was like another week and then we decided to go to the beach which is like very different like that's like different than meeting at a bar and it was a far away beach

Christopher 28:21

yeah it's like a destination activity yes

Miriam 28:24

And it was like a special secret beach I know about. It was a nude beach. And I remember I like shared something really personal with you and cried. We were naked. So we'd never done anything and we were naked, which is really funny. But we have, there is like a, not to say that it wasn't sexy, but like we have like a bit of a childlike thing between us in a sense.

Christopher 28:48

Yeah. There's a lightness. Yeah. So it

Miriam 28:51

didn't feel that weird.

Christopher 28:52

Yeah.

Miriam 28:53

And then I remember I had to pee and I was peeing in the ocean and you were holding my hand so that I didn't like fall because it was like cold. This is February. And you kissed me while I was peeing. Wow. And that was the first time we kissed.

Christopher 29:07

Wow.

Miriam 29:08

Yeah.

Christopher 29:09

What timing.

Miriam 29:10

It was awesome. That's so funny.

Christopher 29:13

Yeah, I... I have no idea what compelled me to have that be the moment. But yeah, I guess, I mean, it was to my recollection, a good moment. So

Miriam 29:25

yeah, it totally worked. It was very

Christopher 29:27

funny. I think there was some falling too. I don't, I don't, I really don't want that to be just like, this is the time that I went for. Like, I think there might've been like, you know, the wave comes, you know, like, I think there was a circumstance that kind of like pushed us together a little bit more. So I was just like, let me just like bend down a little bit and give you a kiss right now I hope but whatever I guess either way it was fine

Miriam 29:50

it's very funny

Christopher 29:51

yeah yeah immaculate timing

Miriam 29:54

I mean that's great I loved it I loved it cool and then we so that was the first time we kissed and then at some point we like pulled over on the side of the road there was like really beautiful stars because we like went out of the city a little bit and then we like kissed a little and then and then that was it we didn't like go back up to my apartment

Christopher 30:15

no but

Miriam 30:16

No,

Christopher 30:18

we didn't. were early signals for me. Like, oh, I'm now confronting, you know, actually experiencing intimacy with someone outside of my primary relationship. And I think I pushed some of those signals that were not... I don't want to say uncomfortable, but I think that I began to experience what it was like to be close to somebody else. And I think I was pushing down any fears or nervousness that came from that so that I could experience the moment more.

Miriam 31:27

Yeah, and I think that is probably okay because sometimes it's awesome to push past fear. And also, I don't know, it's like, maybe there's a world in which it could have been a little uncomfortable and then became normal. So I think that's good. I don't think you not like articulating those in the moment is at all a problem because you were figuring it out and like watching yourself. And yeah, so like I didn't know that, but that's, yeah, now that really makes sense that that would have happened.

Christopher 32:04

Probably would have been a more interesting conversation Assuming I'd found the right moments to share those, in retrospect, I think it would have been a good conversation and maybe would have been more honest. But I think sometimes you have to be honest with yourself so that you can be honest with others. And I don't think I was able to be fully honest with myself in that time because I was just... confused and excited and obviously very happy, but... Yeah.

Miriam 32:40

I think also sometimes you have to take a beat, you know, it's like when you're in the middle of something, I mean, I think when you're in the middle of something, it's cool to experience it. And then once you're out, like think it over and see how you're feeling. I think it was pretty awesome that we had that day and just had fun that day. Obviously you were like, also had an extra layer to it. Cause I was just like, but actually now that I think about it, I probably was also experiencing that because I freaking broke up with that devil that week. is doing open relationships and always dated a million people and always had like one primary but like not even someone I was necessarily in love with and then would like date a thousand other people you know and was always free and it was so fun and so it was a turning point in my life in general of like being more interested in like really engaging with someone and like having feelings and yeah committing and it's just so funny that I was like yeah, I'm going to commit to this married man. But yeah, that was like the, I think it was just like, it didn't make me make that much sense. Cause it, and again, it wasn't, there was part of it that this guy was like maybe a little bit of an asshole clearly, but I would not have broken up with him if I, if it was not for you, I would have kept it going and eventually broken up with him. But it was like, I was feeling things for you and I didn't want to not be able to like justify Yeah. So we kind of were both having that experience of like, this is a lot.

Christopher 35:05

spending time with a person or dating a person. And that seemed to be at this certain emotional and physical level. And I think... I wanted to experience that also. And so when you were, I guess when we were both beginning to like, you know, experience that, that, that positivity together, uh, and that, that bond, it felt right to me because it in some ways felt like it was paralleling. Like I, I think in some ways it felt almost like I was sharing an experience with her, uh, by sharing an experience with you.

Miriam 35:49

Wow. That's interesting. I had never thought of that aspect of it. That's very interesting.

Christopher 35:54

And that's not even

Miriam 35:54

what we were talking about. No, but that's super interesting. I mean, there was somebody that I was like really in a relationship the first time that I like started to open up and we were like monogamous for the first two years and then open the second two years and we're still super, super good friends. And, um, and I remember it was kind of romantic.

Christopher 36:11

Oh yeah. Oh, definitely. There was, there was a ton of romance. I mean that, that whole day date was like I

Miriam 36:17

don't mean between us. I also wonder whether you starting to really feel something for me made you uncomfortable thinking that your wife could be feeling that much for someone else.

Christopher 36:56

That maybe would have required a bit more honesty with myself that I didn't get to at the time. I think that I was charging forward and just allowing myself to see it as an experience because it felt... positive for both of us and it felt positive with her and that partner at the time. Yeah, I think it did just feel like a good thing and something that we could share. And I love that you described what you had said about the relationship where you got to feel some type of romance with your partner. I think there was that. Yeah, so I appreciate how you communicated that. And I think there were some similar experiences in ours.

Miriam 37:47

That's cool. I hadn't thought of that part of the story, so it's cool to hear that. You just used the phrase charged ahead. We definitely charged ahead. You and I made a plan to go to a hot springs in Northern California.

Christopher 38:02

Yeah, this whole thing was very fast forward. We

Miriam 38:04

made a reservation. I mean,

Christopher 38:07

that's sort of jumping ahead too, though.

Miriam 38:09

No, that was right then. Was it right then? Well, because there was not much left, honestly. That was after that beach date. I think. Cause that was the third Sunday we hung out. And then the next Sunday you tried to take me on a hike. Oh, kind of far away. And then it's funny cause we'd been at the beach the week before, but we tried to go on a hike and a road was closed because we didn't have like chains for. Yeah.

Christopher 38:39

The weather was bad. Yeah, totally.

Miriam 38:41

Um, and so then we went back here and I'm just going to talk freely and if there's any Anything you, again, don't want me to include, I won't include it. And then we came and we were like kind of all over each other that day, like in the car. I was like, oh,

Christopher 38:58

like I was. We crossed the threshold. I was excited.

Miriam 39:00

Yeah. And then, and then, yeah, we came back here and we had sex. So we had like only kissed and then we had sex. Like we just like, and that was the fourth Sunday we'd hung out.

Christopher 39:12

Yeah.

Miriam 39:13

And I think at that moment we, maybe it was after that. that we made the plan to go to the Naked Hot Spring?

Christopher 39:20

I think it was. I think either in that same moment or very closely after. I think it might have been immediately after,

Miriam 39:30

actually. It might have been immediately after. I kind of vaguely remember that. Because then we spent some time together. I think we kind of spent the day together.

Christopher 39:40

Whereas in that moment, obviously that was an extremely... beautiful moment. Uh, and it was a positive moment, you know, just, I was grateful to have had that moment. And at the same time, internally, I was, um, just full panic mode.

Miriam 39:56

So I didn't

Christopher 39:56

know that. Yeah. I concealed all of that, unfortunately, you know, to, to yeah. Unfortunate for both of us.

Miriam 40:04

It's fine. Um, yeah, the, the, uh, spoilers that it's fine. Um, we made that plan and I think maybe I, I mean, I I am intense.

Christopher 40:16

Um, you are present. I don't know if intense is, uh, that's lovely. I mean, maybe that's a cool thing to own,

Miriam 40:25

but that's a really cool distinction. I'm definitely also like unafraid to move forward with things. So things, and I, and again, we can remove this, but like, it was really fun having sex with you.

Christopher 40:40

It was like very fun. Yeah. It was very fun for me too.

Miriam 40:43

Like, wow. Like, very well fit, like very suited bodies.

Christopher 40:50

Yeah.

Miriam 40:51

And, and I absolutely can take this out. Um, um, you hadn't had sex with anybody else in a long time.

Christopher 40:58

Yeah. Yeah. No. Years. Yeah.

Miriam 41:02

Yeah. So like that is exciting for both of us.

Christopher 41:06

Yeah.

Miriam 41:06

Like that's exciting.

Christopher 41:08

Totally. There was a lot of electricity, a lot of, a lot of positive, anxious energy. Yes.

Miriam 41:15

And I think, I don't really think we could have done it differently. I mean, you can always do things differently and maybe you feel like you should have, but at least for me, it felt so, There was such momentum. It's like sometimes you just need to live life. So I'm sorry if you feel like you did something you shouldn't have done. For me, it was so natural and so fun and right feeling that I don't think we could have done it differently.

Christopher 41:44

Oh, I want to clarify. I don't want to say I don't think we should have done it. I think that we practiced a lot of restraint because I think that that tension was there pretty early on. Yeah. And I'm saying restraint and realizing this was over the span of four weeks. So maybe not that much restraint. But yeah, there was no regret. It wasn't like, oh, this was a mistake. It was other feelings. It was other complications internally. Not like, oh, I'm so unhappy that I decided to be intimate with this person. Cool.

Miriam 42:21

Which honestly, if that was true, that would be okay because it would be the truth. I'm so interested in the truth that I just like to hear it even if it's like oh huh and then that week you told me that you were having some trouble and that it was like getting confusing and getting hard and we met up I think maybe that Thursday and we got tacos and talked and you were like this is hard I did some things that were like a little bit outside the bounds of what I think is okay

Christopher 43:00

yeah and I'll clarify it wasn't outside the bounds of any agreement with my primary with my wife it was outside of the bounds of I think my own comfort and I didn't know that until I went past that boundary yes but once I went past that boundary I knew it I felt it and yeah that was a that was a That was an intimacy boundary that I didn't know I wasn't ready to cross until I crossed it. And once I did cross it, I was just filled with fear. And I hadn't been filled with any fear up to that point, but just overcome in a way that I haven't experienced since. And I don't know if I had ever experienced, but yeah, to me, that was the first real time that I thought, okay, now I feel I feel separate from my wife in a way that I hadn't ever felt. And that feeling of separateness terrified me.

Miriam 44:05

Wow.

Christopher 44:06

It filled me with terror. And I was like, okay, this isn't for me. I'm not capable of this on so many levels. And I didn't know that until that moment. But yeah, I knew it then. And then that was followed by just... not wanting to treat you in any unkind way or treat myself in any unkind way, treat my wife in any unkind way. I just felt like I had gotten into some amount of deep water that I wasn't able to tread. I

Miriam 44:42

think there was a lot of that I knew. I don't think I knew that fear was like the primary feeling.

Christopher 44:48

Oh man. Yeah. That's the primary driving force in my life. Are you kidding me? That's yeah.

Miriam 44:53

I thought it was overwhelmed. Yes. But that's a little different. And can you explain, like, was it fear of losing your wife?

Christopher 45:02

It was. Yeah. It was. And she had, you know, I wasn't the first person I didn't cross that boundary without... I wasn't the first one to cross that threshold. I don't want to say boundary. Boundary feels like the wrong word. There was just a lot of nuance in the openness of our relationship and we were both kind of exploring it and... Yeah, I don't know, for whatever reason, me crossing that line, crossing that line doesn't feel like the right word either. I'm having a hard time finding the right way to communicate this. But yeah, that was just, it... It was just too much. It was too much. I think I felt very close to you. And I think that because it wasn't just some arbitrary sexual experience, because there was a lot of closeness and I felt very connected to you and I felt that intimacy and I felt a certain amount of understanding and connectedness and closeness. I think maybe it was even too close. Uh, and, and I, I couldn't get that close to anybody else.

Miriam 46:21

I feel like you just explained that so well.

Christopher 46:23

Oh, I mean, I stumbled. So thanks for saying that. But, uh, yeah. Yeah.

Miriam 46:28

Yeah. It's actually like, feels good to hear you say that.

Christopher 46:30

I don't think I've, uh, I've definitely explored it a lot in my own head, but I don't think I've put it into words in that way. So directly. And obviously I haven't put those words directly to you either. So,

Miriam 46:43

yeah.

Christopher 46:44

Cause at the time after, I mean, we'll go to this, but I, I, I wasn't thinking clearly immediately after that. And I think I got pretty cowardly. Uh,

Miriam 46:52

well, I kind of redirected it. I, um, so that was, I don't totally remember the timeline, but that was like a Thursday that you were starting to tell me that you're uncomfortable. And then we had a phone conversation, I think a few days later, maybe Monday, but like, yeah, maybe Monday, something like that, but like within certainly a week. And you said that you couldn't continue being romantic with me and that you and your wife for closing the marriage, which is a horrible term. You're unopening. You're, you know, whatever.

Christopher 47:23

Yeah. Returning to monogamy.

Miriam 47:27

Returning to monogamy. And which was like very, very surprising. We also canceled Harbin, I think before that, because of COVID. Yeah. This is the insane thing. This happened truly. This is like late February. I mean, it might have even bled into March.

Christopher 47:44

Yeah. 2020. It was early. around I don't think that I at that point was not that I wasn't taking it seriously but timelines are tough obviously for me I don't

Miriam 47:55

think I was taking it seriously until I remember being like two week lockdown are you kidding me I live alone like I was like yeah totally I definitely couldn't believe it and didn't believe it and my you know reasonable people were being concerned and I was like that's not a big deal like I just yeah of course I mean a lot of people you couldn't have imagined

Christopher 48:15

but I mean, yeah, it was good that we canceled. I mean, that was a good call. That was a smart move. But I think

Miriam 48:21

maybe we canceled because of the situation rather than COVID. I cannot remember.

Christopher 48:25

I hope that it wasn't me using COVID. No, I don't think so. I think we did it mutually because I was being, like, I think I wasn't being myself at that point. But I

Miriam 48:34

also think, like, maybe your wife had had to cancel something also. So it's just like, she was maybe going to be out of town. Totally. Oh my God, you're right. And then, yeah, like, COVID was already doing the canceling of certain things and I remember like South by got canceled and all of us were like wait

Christopher 48:52

what I also want to note that a part of that also was and this is just like a struggle in my life but uh there was a conflicting schedule moment in that. And what we had avoided, my wife and I, up until that point was, you know, I think a big part of what had made it work up to that point was that we were each other's primary focus and that was a moment in which I think I began to make a previous plan that we had had almost seemed secondary. And that was also a boundary that like we started touching upon that and that instantly didn't feel good. And it brought attention in our relationship that we hadn't experienced in our experience being open. And so that was bad. It tainted the moment for me.

Miriam 49:50

That makes perfect sense. I think there was also like a financial boundary because it was like you were spending money on a reservation. Yeah,

Christopher 49:58

totally.

Miriam 49:58

So there was definitely like a lot of things conflating at once.

Christopher 50:02

So much of that. Actually, that's a great call out because we have a lot of, we align a lot on our spending habits and our, I think our, I don't want to say frugal, but we've been very selective about how we choose to spend money together in large ways. You know, I think we'd always enjoyed and prided ourselves in affordable dates, I guess, just because we'd had some goals that we had been seeking out for a while and had stuck to that and been really good at that. And I think we'd had a lot of pride and there was a strength in our relationship was our ability to do that together. And so this reservation was like substantially more than we generally would spend on anything. And that introduced, you know, like very understandably, like unhappy feelings.

Miriam 50:53

Yeah. I do remember when you told me that you needed to end things, you kind of just wanted to get off the phone, which I understood, you know, it's like, it's very hard to do. Like we've all like told somebody something they didn't want to hear and been like, can I just do this by text? Like, it's like really, really hard to do because yeah, like we all want to make everybody happy. all the time.

Christopher 51:24

Which is, you know, definitely something I struggle with.

Miriam 51:27

Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, that's totally normal. And I wanted to take a second to have a funeral for our relationship. Because as much as I was thrown for a loop, although there was like a little, you know, you had sort of warned me. It sounded like as the feelings were arising, you were sort of letting me know.

Christopher 51:52

I'm I guess, I don't know. I'm

Miriam 51:57

glad to hear that. just the fact that things were, had been really good and that we had had this like really beautiful connection and just to take a second to say goodbye to a beautiful connection that could not be so that there wasn't this like, like more longing than there needed to be and more of a sort of like never ending feeling. Like I felt like there was like a, I wouldn't even say cut the cord. It was more delicate than that. There was something that we were doing together that I wanted to do and I have to say you were down to do. I think initially it totally makes sense that you were like, okay, bye. But when I did suggest it, you were down and I think we kind of back and forth said nice things to each other.

Christopher 53:19

Yes, but I don't. You're being really kind to me, but But I remember distinctly there being a moment where I think I was trying my best to put up a wall out of fear. And in a very caring way, you called me out.

Miriam 53:36

Interesting. Do you remember what I said?

Christopher 53:38

Hmm. I don't, I don't remember the exact words, but I, I think, I think you just, uh, you like understandably like had a lot of, uh, like respect for the time we spent together and, um, I'm grateful. And this is, you know, I kind of reflective of why I was able to reach out to the beginning. I think you, you communicated respect towards me and you communicated a lot of respect towards yourself. And, uh, when I was just in panic mode, you, you sort of stopped me and said like, you know, quit that, uh, you know, we need to engage in this moment because it was meaningful and you can't just shut this down. You can't shut yourself down because that's not essentially, that's not kind to me. And you were totally right. And, um, Yeah, it was hard for me, but I do remember us having an extended moment where we got to reflect and sort of look at what we were experiencing and think about what it meant and how it felt. Yeah. you know, what it meant to move forward.

Miriam 54:43

I mean, it's cool that you were able to switch gears.

Christopher 54:45

I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't, yeah.

Miriam 54:48

I think it's hard when you're in sort of like one track to hear what, The person who's trying to get you to switch tracks is saying, and I feel like you did.

Christopher 54:58

I'm glad to hear that. Yeah. Yeah.

Miriam 55:01

I mean, I, I felt like I got exactly what I wanted.

Christopher 55:04

Really? Yeah. Oh man. That's so nice to hear.

Miriam 55:06

Oh my God. I mean, I think that is really what I wanted. I wanted to say nice things to each other.

Christopher 55:12

Yeah.

Miriam 55:12

Like I wanted, it wasn't even just that I wanted to like hear you say nice things. I wanted to say nice things to you because it had been this like great situation.

Christopher 55:22

Yeah. It was, it was awesome.

Miriam 55:23

Yeah. Yeah.

Christopher 55:24

It was like a very special time. Totally. Yeah, that was sort of kind of like confirming, I think... my desire to reach out to you in the beginning, you did sort of confirm that choice even towards the end by, I would say like taking on a little bit more of a mature angle and sort of calling out the need to do that because I was resistant internally, but I'm really glad that we did. And I think that was a much healthier way of working through the process. than I would have done if I had had full control, which, you know, would have been just, you know, like shut down, you know, essentially like just shut down emotionally. Yeah. And you very caringly prevented that from happening or at least gave us the opportunity to have that not happen.

Miriam 56:28

Yeah. And I think that made me be able to move on.

Christopher 56:33

Yeah.

Miriam 56:33

Yeah.

Christopher 56:34

Yeah. Yeah, that was such a challenging moment. I remember that final time that we got together and sat down and just as you said, essentially said nice things to each other and reflected and grieved.

Miriam 56:53

Yeah. Oh, that's a good word. Yeah, totally.

Christopher 56:56

But it was positive and it helped me too because I knew that it was the right thing for me to move back into monogamy but I also you know I would have felt terrible if we hadn't had some amount of closure and you know like a healthy way to communicate through it like a finalizing moment

Miriam 57:23

yeah I mean and earlier when you were talking about passing a boundary or a threshold or a line or whatever my thought was because recently I've been doing that in my life. And even when I come up against something that's like too much, I think my feeling is like, I am grateful that I am in a life where I am going up against things and then maybe reassessing rather than just being afraid of even going anywhere near the line. And especially in like a marriage, definitely it seems like in this area, you don't need to go anywhere near the line. the line, but just in general in life too, like we did like cross a boundary and then like move back and reassess and decide to do something different. Yeah. And we were like, okay with it.

Christopher 58:19

Totally. And, and, um, yeah, in, in some ways it was a, uh, in, it was a good thing for my marriage.

Miriam 58:29

Uh, wow.

Christopher 58:30

Yeah.

Miriam 58:30

Uh, oh my God.

Christopher 58:32

Yeah. So, I mean, I, just to, I guess to continue from what you're saying about the benefit of crossing that boundary and to sort of get past something and then experience that. And even if you have to recalibrate, I mean, COVID was a big part of it. And so timing really aligned in a very interesting way. But after you and I experienced the crossing of that threshold, boundary, whatever we want to call it, and then as my wife and I redirected our shared experience back into like a monogamous choice together. You know, we just, we went right into COVID together. And I mean, you knew our place at the time was like a extremely small little shoe box. And so we basically just stayed in that shoe box for two years. I mean, pretty stringently actually, but it completely transformed everything. And yeah, we got, I mean, I think we were always very close and always very open to like experiencing things and understanding each other better. and understanding ourselves better, but that, that strengthened things. Wow. Yeah. And I mean, it's, and in retrospect, like, I don't know that we'll, I don't want to say never, I don't, I don't think we'll ever go back into exploring any type of like openness because that time followed immediately by COVID and this like forced, you know, like one-on-one journey. Yeah. It, it strengthened, it strengthened things. Because

Miriam 1:00:08

you guys had been honest about what you

Christopher 1:00:22

want from each other? I'd want to try this at our strongest, not at our weakest moment, because I didn't want it to be something that is like a one step out the door and a way to ease out of a relationship. I want it to be, you know, we are at a very high communication level and we're very close and happy. And so if we're going to try this, let's try it when we're feeling strong. And that happened. And I think coming out of it and still trusting each other and still like communicating at a pretty high level confirmed a lot of it confirmed a lot of the positive aspects of the relationship and then you know being forced to be next to someone for two years only further confirmed you know that what we were doing was the right thing

Miriam 1:01:23

I mean that's really cool

Christopher 1:01:24

yeah it's I mean it's it's wild to think that it's been three years I mean you know I guess in the grand scheme of things that's not that much time but it also feels like a you know it feels like a lifetime it's been a significant three years so it does feel like a lot a lot's happened yeah you know

Miriam 1:01:42

but yeah hearing that makes me so happy for

Christopher 1:01:44

you thank you yeah you know who knows I mean I can I can be grateful that it worked out that's you know not not to assume there won't be more challenges in the future like you know there always are but I am grateful that we got to experience that we got to know each other better through that experience and I am so grateful that I got to become closer to you. You were probably the best person I could have ever reached out to in terms of just being a caring person and being an open person and someone that I could learn with and from, obviously. But yeah, it was a very positive experience. I'm very happy that we did it. I

Miriam 1:02:30

love how it makes you really happy. I remember, I think it was like fall of 2020, I texted you because I had this thought that like, maybe you and I kind of sensed that COVID was coming, even though we totally didn't believe it. And that maybe that's why everything was like so heightened and so sped up and so intense. I mean, I think that was going to happen, but yeah, that was an interesting thought that it was sort of, it did, it is significant that it was like just before COVID. It totally is. There was this yeah, it's cool to think that we were sort of tapped in to the future without, you know, being there yet.

Christopher 1:03:13

And, and we did, uh, I think like have a, a full extended, you know, experience that, that really could have been stretched out over a longer period of time. But I think that we were able to experience a lot in, in a pretty short amount of time. And I didn't, didn't even think about that amount of time being as short as it was. Like it felt like a longer experience for me.

Miriam 1:03:34

Yeah. But that's, That's also really useful. It's like, we learned the lesson, and then we got out of there. And that's useful for your marriage, and that's useful for me. Like, that's cool. It's like, all of the expansion happened, but it didn't have to take 11 months or whatever.

Christopher 1:03:49

Totally. Expansion's a great way of putting it.

Miriam 1:03:51

Yeah. I mean, it was really fun, too.

Christopher 1:03:53

It was.

Miriam 1:03:54

Also, we have the same birthday.

Christopher 1:03:55

Yes, we do. Yes, we do. Birthday twins.

Miriam 1:03:58

I'm curious whether you, and like, sometimes these questions could feel like a I guess I like think of you as an artist and like wonder whether you've had some like fun in that realm.

Christopher 1:04:15

Oh man. Uh, unfortunately, no. Um, I've gotten deeper into my career, which has, uh, pushed me into like a whole different mindset. And I still struggle with the, uh, you know, I keep telling my, and it is still a challenge to try to, to try to honor both sides of, you know, like how I see myself, which is, you know, like a person that likes the technical sides of things and someone that I guess even has mostly a creative background. But it is hard for me to honor both at once. Seems like I have to dive into something and I can't, I can't do, I can't do two things at once, unfortunately.

Miriam 1:04:56

Yeah.

Christopher 1:04:57

Yeah. But it's a great reminder. And I hope I keep getting these reminders because like, I think that I don't think it's, I don't think it's gone. I don't think it's out there yet.

Miriam 1:05:05

There's no way. That's totally how I think of you.

Christopher 1:05:07

Yeah. I love that. How about you?

Miriam 1:05:09

Oh, yeah. Tons. Yeah.

Christopher 1:05:12

Cool.

Miriam 1:05:13

Yeah. It's been a really fun, interesting time. And even this project has been so exciting. This

Christopher 1:05:19

is extremely cool.

Miriam 1:05:20

It's been really fun. Very moving. And like, yeah. I mean, I also just thank you so much for being down.

Christopher 1:05:30

Yeah. I mean... with all things related to you, you seem to be, uh, helping me, you know, um, push myself in positive ways. This is another example of that.

Miriam 1:05:43

That's really cool.

Christopher 1:05:44

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I'm, I'm still very anxious, but I'm loving it. It's very fun. Yeah. It's been a fun first podcast experience.

Miriam 1:05:52

Oh, you first. Oh

Christopher 1:05:53

yeah. Are you kidding me? I

Miriam 1:05:55

don't know. Yes. I don't know. There are a lot of them.

Christopher 1:05:58

This is, yeah. Uh, probably my last, uh, I mean, who knows what the future holds, but like, yeah, you're probably the only one I would say yes to.

Miriam 1:06:08

Cool. I love that. I really, really appreciate that. Totally. And it's interesting because I feel like even not being in touch, like the way we are, it's like, I feel like on some level we have been in touch. Yeah.

Christopher 1:06:22

Totally. It wasn't a challenge to talk to you to come in and do this. And yeah, it's... Yeah. And I have a lot of respect for you. Is there

Miriam 1:07:08

anything you can think of that you want to make sure is said?

Christopher 1:07:14

no no not at all actually cool i mean like yeah we touched a lot of we really got

Miriam 1:07:19

into everything i feel like

Christopher 1:07:21

yeah it's it it feels like i mean i want there to be like a nice like closing to this but i i'm just drawing a full blank

Miriam 1:07:28

no but i i mean i think there there was like a great arc i feel really good about it like my like my third eye feels open you know like things feel really good i feel like there's such a purity

Christopher 1:07:42

yeah

Miriam 1:07:42

between us

Christopher 1:07:43

i feel it too all Although honestly, I felt that way when I listened. I feel like I'm, I mean, you already said that you shared another episode with me, but like listen to the whole thing. Like enjoyed it so much. Really like whoever that was. Yeah. Seems like a great person. Yeah. You can say it

Miriam 1:08:01

was Chad's episode. Yeah.

Christopher 1:08:02

Chad's episode. Yeah. Chad seems cool and intelligent and kind and yeah. Good person.

Miriam 1:08:10

Yeah. Oh, I'm so happy. Yeah. I saw him twice yesterday. He's like one of my closest friends.

Christopher 1:08:13

Nice. Yeah. I would like to hear more of these.

Miriam 1:08:16

Um, well you will. Okay. Yeah. And there's some wild stories coming.

Christopher 1:08:21

I, yeah, it's yeah. Um,

Miriam 1:08:24

but yeah, God, I mean, I just like, thank you. Cause I know it wasn't like the simplest thing in the world to agree to do this. And this like felt really good.

Christopher 1:08:32

Cool. It felt good for me too.

Miriam 1:08:34

Thank you. Thank you. I'm like really happy.

Christopher 1:08:36

Yeah. Cool.

Miriam 1:08:37

That like really happened.

Christopher 1:08:39

Yes. All right.

Miriam 1:08:41

Yes. I want you also. That felt so good to be able to talk to him like that and that we actually experienced closure together. The intro was so funny because I didn't want to say to you why it was interesting, but I just wanted to say, trust me. But yes, there's so much to say about open relationships. I'll definitely talk about that more in future episodes and what it was like to be in them but I really liked talking about what it was like to be the outside person in one and I'm really glad that Christopher was so down to reveal so much of himself and what happened and as I said to him in the episode I'm just so happy that what happened between him and me was good for his marriage I mean that is incredible and I think I can feel that happy for him because he gave me a lot of love something that I've noticed about myself is that if I don't get the amount of love that I want or need I get anxious and then if I do get that love I can be very cool and forgiving so even though that relationship ended I was never mad I was really happy to have had that experience I mean I think that's pretty obvious from that episode and yeah I have such a good feeling about Christopher and I loved having you all here to hear it. So thank you. Until the next ex.