The Ex Appeal Podcast
Host Miriam Katz interviews every person she has ever been romantic with on any level, from a 5th grade pizza date to an orthodox rabbi to a stripper she once hooked up with. Every. Single. Person.
The Ex Appeal Podcast
"You Were Like A Young Madonna" – Dating A Comedian Everyone Loves
Miriam Katz interviews the mythical Reggie about their six-month relationship. They talk dance-y sex, peek experiences, bad communication, and big, magical, catalyzing love. Tears are shed. Creativity and community are praised. An inspiring one.
Audio engineering by Lamps Lampanella
Theme song melody and vocals by Miriam Katz, instrumentals by Jon Steinmeier
Logo designed by Anna Nguyen and Kathryn Davis
Photo by Dana Patrick
It's over, but I still have questions. It's over, but I still have questions.
SPEAKER_06:Hi. Welcome back to the X appeal podcast. This is Miriam Katz. Thank you for hanging out with me. This episode. Oh, this episode. This man, really, this man changed my life. And I tell him that in the episode. Some people really do change your life. And that is not always easy because sometimes it is quite hard to change. And in this case, it was a real struggle for me, which we talk a lot about. But Reggie suggested to me, with his art and with his essence, that I could live life differently and put creativity and improvisation and the unknown more at the center of my life. And he came totally at the right time. I was doing a lot of spiritual experimenting in Williamsburg and in upstate New York, which we will definitely get into in future episodes. But I was very primed right then, 15 years ago, to have someone catapult me. So this episode feels like a reminder, even to me, that if you've been catapulted by a relationship and you've landed badly, it might ultimately be super essential to getting you to where you need to be. And that sounds grand because it is grand, because this guest is grand, big, special, fun, funny, and honestly magical. So please open your heart to Reggie. You like drugs, you like God. You like drugs, you like God. You like drugs, and you like God.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, yeah. Oh, sorry. You can do it in the middle. No, I'm it's soft, which is makes it not crunchy, which I love.
SPEAKER_06:I don't want it to be too hot for you.
SPEAKER_03:No tongue burned. That's really good.
SPEAKER_06:Good. I mean it's instant, but it's functional.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. It tastes like something that's really good to me.
SPEAKER_06:It's such a funny way of saying it. It tastes like it's good. There's a hummingbird out there. It's pretty good.
SPEAKER_03:That'd be great if it's just a regular bird just going, mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00:I've never thought of that joke.
SPEAKER_06:Oh, it's good. Oh, went away. Thought we were making fun of it. Oh, we're starting with a laugh. Okay, Reggie. Yes. We're gonna talk about our romantic life. Okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Taco Bell.
SPEAKER_06:How does that make you feel?
SPEAKER_03:Makes me feel like uh I I have no idea.
SPEAKER_06:Okay, great. That's fine. I just didn't know if you did know how you felt.
SPEAKER_03:No, yeah, yeah, no. I d I don't no. Because I'm just yeah, just arrived. Amazing.
SPEAKER_06:That's good.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_06:Uh okay. So do you remember meeting? It's okay, by the way, if you remember nothing.
SPEAKER_03:No, I remember some things, but uh I I think we met. I think we met at a like a function. Maybe like you were dancing. Were we dancing? Or did we go to something where we danced together?
SPEAKER_06:We definitely danced together a lot. A lot. But I don't But that is not how we met.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Oh, did we met? Were you interviewing me?
SPEAKER_06:Hmm.
SPEAKER_03:Um for it was an art magazine, was it?
SPEAKER_06:It was.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Yeah. That's fun. Okay.
SPEAKER_06:It's fun that it's turning into a quiz.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Uh I was interviewing you for Art Forum.
SPEAKER_03:That's right, Art Forum, yeah. We met in the lobby of a hotel. Yes. Waldorf Astoria?
SPEAKER_06:I think that's correct. Yeah, because it was midtown.
SPEAKER_03:You know, yeah, it was, yeah, it was right by the edge uh edge of the park.
SPEAKER_06:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:And it was not even, it was like set back, but truly the lobby, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it was in the lobby, yeah, for sure. I do remember that, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Cool.
SPEAKER_03:Crazy. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Do you remember anything about that?
SPEAKER_03:I remember uh uh I just remember I I thought I just remember that, and I remember kind of the lobby. I don't remember necessarily what we talked about. But I mean, obviously we talked about art and things, but I don't remember specifically.
SPEAKER_06:But I remember that the first half or so I was just interviewing you. Yeah. And I was curious and I was asking questions, and we were going back and forth and having a good time. Yeah. And then about halfway through, I was like, oh. There was like a shift. I was like, oh, this might be something else. Oh, nice. But it was very interesting that it was that there was like a turn mid-interview. Uh-huh. It was a very cool sensation. It was it was like an opening.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah. Maybe I do remember that.
SPEAKER_06:I mean, it wasn't necessarily like the same for you, but it was I was in no way putting you in that category.
SPEAKER_03:I see. Right, right, right. Yeah, from the beginning, of course.
SPEAKER_06:I mean, it could have been, it could have been, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it could, but I have fun. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Uh, but there was like a it almost felt like I became more open overall.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:There was a feeling of like, oh yes, I got you.
SPEAKER_03:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_06:And then by the end, I think it was clear that there was some liking. Yeah. Because we got each other's numbers, I think, before things had been through a manager or something.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:And then we made plans to hang out.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_06:And then do you remember that?
SPEAKER_03:Um that I'm not sure of. Um, I imagine no, I'm not sure what we did. I imagine we probably would have gotten coffee or a meal or something.
SPEAKER_06:We did we got coffee. I think maybe blue bottle. Uh-huh. It was in Williamsburg. Bloobsey. Bloobsies. And then we walked around for hours. Like we went around Williamsburg and Greenpoint.
SPEAKER_00:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_06:Like far like far edge of Green Point, like Box Street.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, that's right. I do remember that. Yeah, like maybe in down by where the domino sugar factory was in maybe that area.
SPEAKER_06:I think the other way.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, uh north or south?
SPEAKER_06:What way is Green Point?
SPEAKER_03:North, I think.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, like almost to Long Island City.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Oh, right. Okay.
SPEAKER_06:Uh, and I don't really remember that many details about it, but just that it was like super fun. And then we went back to my apartment, which I had moved into like pretty recently. I think this is 2009 or 2010.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, that sounds right about right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:And I remember I didn't have a ton of furniture. And then we kissed in my bedroom.
SPEAKER_02:Ah.
SPEAKER_06:And then I had plans to hang out with Sonia, who you also knew.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, right. The singer, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:So then I went up and hung out with her, and then you came over. So like we kept on the hang kept hanging.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, that's right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, the kitchell who lived in uh Greenpoint. Uh-huh. That's right. So back to Green Point.
SPEAKER_06:And then do you remember what happened?
SPEAKER_03:Then I remember there was a it was like two parakeets that went walking across the floor. And I mentioned, hey, check out those parakeets. And then Sonia was like, these those are robots. And then I picked one up and yeah, they were. No, that's not happening. I I remember being at her house. I don't remember if it was, I think it was a I don't know if it was a gathering or something.
SPEAKER_06:Like felt like I don't really remember much else about that particular night. I mean the next time we hung out. You were starting to tour.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:And anything that I say, if you want me to take out, I'll take it out. So I'm just gonna speak freely. And if you're like Yeah. You're opening for Conan.
SPEAKER_01:Oh wow, it was then. Okay. Wow, crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:It was an interesting moment for you. You were expanding.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:People were really starting to know you, I think, for the first time. It was like a big moment of it was a shift, I think, for you professionally.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. Yeah, for sure. 100%.
SPEAKER_06:And then so I met you in Philly for that show. Oh, so we had one date and just kissed, and then I met you to spend the night at your hotel at your show in Philly. It's pretty fun.
SPEAKER_03:That's right. Oh my God. That's crazy. Yeah, and they were like, it was probably like a dope hotel too, because they put us up in really nice hotels for that tour.
SPEAKER_06:Oh, I think probably.
SPEAKER_03:Probably, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, I think so.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Wow.
SPEAKER_06:Um, and then I watched the show. Yeah. And you were sort of like, oh, let's hang out backstage. And I was like, oh, I really want to watch the show. Oh, that's right. Which I wish I had been able to have both experiences.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Because watching the show is like fun. Yes. But then, of course, backstage would have also been fun. But I was legitimately super interested in the show.
SPEAKER_03:Wow. Crazy.
SPEAKER_06:That hummingbird just keeps coming back.
SPEAKER_03:He just keeps humming back.
SPEAKER_06:Keeps humming back.
SPEAKER_03:He's the humback kid.
SPEAKER_06:Um, and then yeah, that was a fun adventure. I mean, it was interesting meeting you in your hotel room because there was like some vulnerability to that. Like I remember I think you'd like just gotten out of the shower, and I think it was like an interesting moment of intimacy, like before you do that. Because it's like you don't usually like see someone like getting ready or whatever. But I like got off the train and came to the hotel. It was like an interesting, I don't know you, but we're doing this.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Before having done anything.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Um, like your hair was down.
SPEAKER_04:Uh-huh. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_06:Um and then we got pretty stoned and went out to dinner, and then a couple sort of agent type people came up to the table. And I remember that being confusing for both of us.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Because we were in like another planet and also just like really excited about each other. And then it was like, oh, right, that other world.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Uh sounds familiar.
SPEAKER_06:And then we like shimmied our way out of there, and then we went back to your hotel room. Do you remember that?
SPEAKER_03:Uh trying to remember. So this must have been a day. Was this a day off? Like a day, was it?
SPEAKER_06:No, you had just performed.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, I see. Okay, gotcha. Oh, okay. So this is after the performance, same night? Oh, okay. Gotcha. So it was like a later dinner type of thing. And then the agents were there. Oh, okay, okay, okay. Um, yeah, uh, no, I'm not sure what happened. I imagine we went back to the hotel, probably just went immediately to sleep.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. Yeah, I slept on the couch. Um we had very dancy sex.
SPEAKER_02:Oh.
SPEAKER_06:Like twisty turny moving around.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Which I think was us and also being on pot cookies.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:You had really fun pot cookies.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, yes. I was uh very much into pot cookies and ting cookies.
SPEAKER_06:But they were very um joyful.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's sweet.
SPEAKER_06:Like it was very like hit, but I remember it feeling dancy. Like us moving around a lot. I think we actually legitimately danced at first. I think it dancing led into it.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, that makes sense. Yeah, that does make sense. Wow, that's crazy. Yeah, that does make sense. Yeah, because uh the pot cookie thing is funny because uh yeah, that was like an era where I was really like I loved pot cookies. And in fact, I think I made a single uh that my friend Jake pressed into a record called potcookies, which yeah, yeah, funny.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, no, you gave me that contact. I had that that woman on my on the line.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:But it definitely was fun, and uh yeah, I mean, that's a distinct memory of a type of sex, like dancy sex. It's really interesting. Yeah, very like twirly.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, okay. Damn, that's crazy.
SPEAKER_03:So that yeah, that was that night. Okay. And then yeah, and then what would have happened?
SPEAKER_06:Like like the next day I had to go to another and then I yeah, you could be the train station.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, oh right, right, right. Oh, okay. Oh, that's crazy. Wow, what a cool, what a cool night.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, I mean, it's a funny now. There's two hummingbirds. That was a funny, um, yeah, like a cool beginning. Like clearly very comfortable, and also I think both maybe interested in like just doing stuff.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Felt like exploratory.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah, just like in an open zone in life, you know, just like more carefree, kind of like, oh, let's do this. Oh, we're doing this. What are you doing? You want to do this? That kind of thing.
SPEAKER_06:And I was in a real like hippie phase, so I was that kind of like I think that's not that that was out of line with other parts of my life or now, but I think I was like particularly like, where's the wind gonna take me?
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
SPEAKER_06:Yes, yes, and I think it was kind of all part of that opening. I had that feeling of like, okay, I am now open to this, and I'm really open to this. Yeah, like whatever's gonna happen, I'm interested.
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
SPEAKER_06:Um then that's like, yeah, the beginning, like one, two, three, more clear. And then I remember we had some dinners. I went to see you perform sometimes. I remember you improvise a song about my apartment, and that felt like fun during a show. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Um, and we did go dancing a bunch somehow.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I remember, I remember one specific time we went dancing. It was, I can't remember, I think it was like perhaps like some kind of a club. Not a club, but like a bar that had like a a kind of a larger room to dance in. Because I remember you dancing, and I was like, you reminded me of like a young Madonna, the way you were dancing. And I was like, oh, that's cool. She like really loves music, you know. And that and I was like, oh, that's great. She's like really grooving on this, and like the spirit of it was really cool. Yeah. I remember that. I don't know when that was, but it must have been the first like handful of times we had.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:It was like an event or someone, like someone was throwing something. And I remember you had like an outfit that did have like a little bit of something doily to it, which kind of increased the it was maybe it was the outfit you were wearing. It was like a form-fitted something that had like some kind of a you know, late like kind of lacy, maybe slightly see-through in certain zones or whatever type of thing. I don't know. Yeah, in my memory.
SPEAKER_06:Um I remember people would recognize you, and that was what's the word I want to use? Notable. Sometimes I remember having dinner once and people sending over shots, and neither you or I particularly like shots, but it was this feeling of like, oh, I guess we need to take this shot. You know, I think now I would just be like, no, thank you. But you know, this like there was some of that, and some of um walking down the street and people saying, I love you to you.
SPEAKER_01:Oh wow. Wow.
SPEAKER_06:And that was interesting, and I think especially because you were newly becoming known. So I think almost everybody thought they were the the only person who knew. You know what I mean? But it was a lot of people. Yes. But I feel like if you saw, I almost feel like you were getting a lot more of that than like Brad Pitt would get, because I mean it's also comedy so different, so personal, and so exciting. It is, but it wasn't interesting, like they were like, Oh, oh, I know you, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, yeah, this is my relationship.
SPEAKER_06:And the the love part of it is so specific. Because it wasn't just like, oh, I love your work, it was like, I love you.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's funny. Yes, yes, I understand. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah, that time period is like a crossover period for sure. Because the only thing, other thing I'd done that was like kind of higher profile, I think I did Kimmel. Not Kimmel, Fallon, the Jimmy Fallon show, that when it was in New York before he got the tonight show. Um, I think I had done that once, and that was probably the I mean, obviously, like everything else adds up, like you know, playing a show or you know, or opening for TV on the radio or something, you know, like that kind of stuff, like just the whole Williamsburg scene, you know, and being involved in that since the 2006s. So I think it's a combination of like people knew, kind of knew of me if they lived in Williamsburg or if they were in the comedy, all comedy circles or whatever, but then this type of thing just like accelerate, you know, the Conan thing or you know, or an announcement or that kind of blows it up a bit. So people are probably a little bit more inclined to be like, hey, you know, yeah, I see what's going on and just want to you know that I love you and you know, whatever, or proud of you, or whatever it is, you know. Yeah, interesting.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, and you also had a an even more distinct look at the time.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, that's true. Yeah, that was very true. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Um is there anything you wanna that you're remembering?
SPEAKER_03:No, not in that I mean it's really just kind of putting it in in order.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Uh but yeah, I yeah, that seems right so far.
SPEAKER_06:Uh there was like walking, you know. Oh yeah. Um and I remember walking across the Williamsburg Bridge one time.
SPEAKER_02:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_06:I remember one time we were like looking at little figurines that someone was selling, and this man gave me this little swan that was flat at the bottom, and he said, Wherever this is, there is a lake.
SPEAKER_01:Oh wow.
SPEAKER_06:And then he gave it to me.
SPEAKER_01:Whoa. That's really amazing. What a what a cool thing to say. I know. And do. Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. So there was a lot of magic when we hung out. I think it was both certainly that people knew you, but I also think we had a thing that people were responding to. Like people liked it, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Um, it was like a fun thing to be near.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:It's a fun thing to be in.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I mean, definitely like, you know, the uh yeah, I think it's just like the open spirit of it all. It was probably an invitation, you know, energetically to a lot of different people.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. Which is cool when both people involved in something are open like that. Yeah. Because it can often be just one, but a lot can happen if you're yeah, just co-resonating. Co-resonating. Shockers aligned. Yeah. Open, open, open. Yep. Um, yeah. Oh, I will also say that I remember during that interview, a huge thing that I was talking to you about was improvisation. Yes. And it was something that I didn't get yet, or I hadn't experienced it, having done it myself yet. Right. And so there was a way in which like a lot of the feeling with you was I was like really interested in it and then eventually kind of stepped into it. Like there was a lot of things about you that were suggestive to me that I liked in you and also sort of wanted to become.
SPEAKER_03:I see. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, that's kind of like the nature of meeting people, right? You know, hopefully like we uh Yeah, you know, like we see things that I mean, obviously, like we're attracted to a situation and then like there then we uh uncover other things about it, you know, that we are uh that we are attracted to.
SPEAKER_00:Totally.
SPEAKER_03:You know, and it just kind of uncovers me, like, oh, that's another reason why. Even though I didn't know, but but but it makes sense that there's more here, obviously, than just like, oh, I think this person is great, you know.
SPEAKER_06:Definitely. No, I I think there's like a lot of levels. There was a you did a lot of catalyzing for me. Did you know that?
SPEAKER_04:No.
SPEAKER_06:Oh, like hugely.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah Yeah, in what way?
SPEAKER_06:Um, I even think the parts that were like difficult about us came into play with it. But I think just I think when we were together, there was a because you were so both in your creativity and succeeding at it. And those are kind of two different things. I think even if you weren't getting recognition, you being so you fully lived in the land of creativity. And I remember you had at the time at least, your manager took care of a lot of things for you.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's Olivia. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:More than I think a typical manager.
SPEAKER_03:For sure. Yeah, Olivia was definitely one of the greatest managers, for sure.
SPEAKER_06:And as a result, you didn't really have to deal with a lot of reality. I don't know if your life has changed.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, it's changed a bit. I mean, I have management that does take care of a lot of stuff, but I had a personal assistant that used to be with Olivia. Actually, Olivia assigned her to me or suggested me use Jamie as a as an assistant. And Jamie definitely made my life like super magical for sure. And I had to recently let her go for uh money reasons, um, just kind of coming off the TV show and just not quite making as much money, but like, you know, just kind of preemptively like, hey, let's save this money here. And I definitely noticed, like, since she's been gone for a few months now, and it's like my, you know, reaching for my phone when I'm like, oh, I need to oh, I can't. Oh, I should uh no, I guess I can't do that. And like, oh I guess I'll do that myself, you know, and then now I have to remember all this, you know. So, but yeah, I mean, whatever that combination was, it definitely allowed me to just stay in creativity for sure.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. And that was both complicated and exciting. But I think at the time I had had periods of being much more creative when I was a little bit younger. And at that moment, I was working at that magazine, curating, you know, I was just very like in support of the arts and not necessarily taking risks or being vulnerable in my own creativity.
SPEAKER_03:I see.
SPEAKER_06:And so there was a feeling of, oh, that's gonna be his job, and then what is my job? Because you were so like ahead in that sphere, and that was hard, and it became so hard that it the feeling was I can't be like that anymore. I can't not there's that. Do you know Nico case? Yeah, she has that line, um, I fucked every man that I wanted to be.
SPEAKER_02:That's hilarious. Incredible line. That's amazing. Wow.
SPEAKER_06:But I think there was this feeling of like, um, yeah, like, what is that life? Not like, oh, I'm gonna become you. Yeah, yeah, no. But yeah, I do think there was like a deep reason why I felt so compelled by you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:But it did also get, and I want to like explain that a little bit. So at first we had all this fun all the time, and we're like stoned a lot and eating good food and dancing and having sex. Like, what a delight. You were also gone a bunch. So it's like in and out of hanging out. You were you'd be in Europe or whatever. And I remember there were moments where you were saying, Oh, come to London or come to Montreal. Yeah. And one time I said, Yeah, why don't I come to Montreal? And then your manager said that you would be too busy for me to come.
SPEAKER_03:Whoa, really? I didn't know that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:But Montreal, now that I've been to Montreal a few times, it's like, yeah, that's not actually don't bring she was right about that. Don't bring a romantic partner to Montreal. Like, definitely don't.
SPEAKER_03:You need to be totally free. Yeah, Montreal Comedy Festival basically is just a networking. Because at first I was like, why would she say it? And then I'm like, oh no, that doesn't make sense.
SPEAKER_06:No, it completely.
SPEAKER_03:It's just con you're just constantly going from one thing to another. Unless you were like, unless you were assigned to someone to like do a you know a story on there was some.
SPEAKER_06:A week later I was like, I went and I covered it. No, yes. Made so much sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, and also you do like many shows a night. Like no, it didn't make sense. Yeah. But there was a funny, you know, it was funny that like your management was involved in like our time together on some level.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_03:That is a little weird.
SPEAKER_06:Um But yeah, so I'd say at first it was like fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun. And then I think uh you going away had a little bit to do with it, although I think it was also exciting to anticipate you coming back. But there started to be a feeling of me not feeling totally like myself. And me feeling, and I think that that thing of you're gonna be the creative one, and then what am I is a little insane. I think it also had something to do with me not doing all the things I'm capable of. Like writing about art and curating art is fine, but it's not really what I'm born to do. Things I'm born to do are a little more nebulous and big. And you know, it's just those are so specific and so brain. Yeah. And like, I'm glad I have a brain, delightful, but I also want the things that don't make sense to be infused in what I'm doing.
SPEAKER_04:Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:And yeah, there I don't really know, you know, exactly when these these moments compiled, but it definitely had something to do with. I mean, I was 29 turning 30, so I was also younger and hadn't tested out certain things. But also, you didn't really want to make plans. You you mean like how how do you mean everything was, I mean, at some point I was like, Can you hang out on Thursday? And you were like, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Oh.
SPEAKER_06:Which I've been there. I remember in my early 20s someone saying, like, can we watch a movie this weekend? And I was like, Oh, I have no idea. I do not know if we can watch a movie this weekend. Um, so I definitely understand the need or want for spontaneity and following whatever you wanted. I also wanted to know if I was gonna hang out with you.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, yes, right. Well, that that reminds me, I mean, that's definitely a trait of mine that I didn't like, you know, like uh at a certain point, like, you know, but I yeah, yeah, because I think my lack of ability to communicate, you know, about like what I wanted or what I was feeling, you know, would allow me to not allow me, but my response to that was to just like be nebulous, you know, and vague or whatever, even though I didn't like it, you know. I didn't I wasn't like, yeah, this is awesome. I get to be like, I'm being vague. I was never like I like that. It was just like that's all I know how to do. Yeah. Because I don't know how talk about it, you know, which is a underdeveloped aspect of myself.
SPEAKER_06:But like, do you think because you were I mean, even just not being able to verbalize is one thing, but did you also not want to disappoint somebody?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, there's probably just a disappointment factor or you know, or yeah, exactly. Maybe it was because I realized I was very busy and I didn't there wasn't like I didn't have space, you know, to like be more mature in a, you know, like a relationship in the sense, you know, no matter what the level of it was, like just to go beyond the initial, this is really fun and we're doing really cool, fun stuff, you know. Like anything beyond that was like, uh I don't know how, you know, that because I I'm busy and I don't want them to, you know. I'm gonna what?
SPEAKER_06:Finish the sentence.
SPEAKER_03:I don't know. I mean that's what I'm saying. That's like that's what it feels open-ended, like or obligation or something. Obligation, but like, yeah, I mean, like responsible, you know, for someone's also it's probably in reaction to how I've been before, you know, like in other situations where I'm like, oh no, here's that part again, and I don't like that part. Um, but at the same time, I can't I don't know how to deal with it other than the way that I'm dealing with dealing with it, which really sucks. And yeah, so I think that there was definitely that for sure. Because I'd been around for a while, you know. Uh I mean that meaning you'd been alive. Okay. No, no, no. No, just like that that type of behavior because I would have been, you know, uh I mean, I guess I'd yeah. I don't know. That's about I mean that's basically it. It's like an old pattern that I probably was disappointed in the pattern emerging again, you know, at the same time as also not wanting to depress. Oh, the doubling is always so hard.
SPEAKER_06:It's like when I get depressed.
SPEAKER_03:I don't like that thing. Yeah, it's like you get depressed, like I don't like being depressed. I don't like being depressed.
SPEAKER_06:Totally.
SPEAKER_03:It's like I don't want to be depressed, and also I don't like being depressed. So you get this double whammy.
SPEAKER_06:100%.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. Yeah. I think also we everything was very high key, which is so fun, but we definitely never watched a single TV show or a movie, or you know, there's no that's true, yeah. Nothing was normal. It was always a big fun thing.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Constant like fantasy extraordinary. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, I mean probably like that convergent. I mean I definitely remember I think I remember. Is there there's is is there stuff before before the end?
SPEAKER_06:Um Well for me there was. Like it just felt it felt uneven. And I think that was you know, like fame and success and talent all can like tie into that feeling. So it felt uneven, it also felt uneven because I would want to do stuff, and you were like, uh Yeah. Um and like you said, there wasn't a ton of communication. I mean, I think at some point you were saying you said to me that you were more physical and I was more verbal in a good way. You were sort of saying, Oh, we can like teach each other that.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Um, but yeah, there wasn't a lot of clarity, and I think I was young enough that I couldn't really say, and especially because I was feeling kind of insecure. So I couldn't, I didn't want to verbalize that. Right. I just wanted to be cool and to have it be cool. Right. Um and to like have a pedicure or something. I don't know. Like I just like uh was trying to do something. Uh-huh. Um but yeah, and then let me think if there was. Uh yeah, maybe there was. I mean, can you think of any memory you have or anything?
SPEAKER_03:I mean, not that we're gonna Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I remember I think I remember when I I think I remembered the end, which I think was um I think it was, yeah, this is the dumbest reason ever, but like I I remember we I think we had I think we had had sex or yeah, we were definitely in your apartment and you had mentioned something about toys about like wanting to use toys like sex sex toys and for some reason that freaked me out and I was like really scared for and and and yeah, and that and that's what kind of like for whatever reason like shut the door for me. Isn't that weird? Whoa, yeah. Which I never told you about, but it's like I do definitely remember that.
SPEAKER_06:Why, why did that it's interesting because I'm like, I don't care very much about toys. Yeah, I just I feel like toys is for when you're not with somebody, but anyway.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just mentioned like oh it'd be cool to, you know, I have toys or something like that. And I was yeah, and I was like it's so much so that I'm like, was that me?
SPEAKER_06:But yeah, it wasn't.
SPEAKER_03:It definitely was you for sure. I mean sometimes I'm like vague on stuff, but like but like I I think I think it's because you were excited. I think it's quite possibly, you know, after hearing you explain these things, it kind of makes sense that like you'd introduce something maybe that you wouldn't normally introduce because you you want it to like you wanted to share more, you know, that you were getting, you know, with like, hey, let's see a movie or like let's bake a muffin together, you know, or something like that. Like muffin would have been awesome. A muffin would be cool, just one muffin. Like just like together, yeah, measure together. Together, yeah. And just measure out just enough ingredients just to make one muffin. Um standard size muffin. Um, but that's what it kind of felt like like, oh, I want to get more personal, you know, like I want to move into another, you know, level. And since sex is the thing that we connect on. Connect on, let's like, let's open it up in that way, you know, perhaps.
SPEAKER_06:It's funny because it could be the opposite. It's it's a little like, aren't I so fun?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I mean, it is, but like how free I am. Yeah. But for me, I I think I got stiff about it because I was such a basic person with sex. Like, you know, like I just liked basic sex, you know, you know, like like not basic. Dancing, not not basic, but you know what I mean, like just more natural, yeah, just natural, kind of traditional, and not traditional, but you know, just like no no fireworks, like no no extra things involved, like vibrators and stuff of that nature. Very seldom had I had experienced, you know, things like that. And so I think for whatever reason that always like tripped me out to like use toys. And so um yeah, and then maybe it was like where I was at in my life at that time because really, like of all the people I've been with, like, there's rarely been a time where someone was like, Toys, you know, so like I never had an experience with that. And uh, and I remember that, and I was like, uh, I don't think uh uh uh and then like some wires crossed or whatever, and that's where I kind of like pulled away. I mean, I think that's the kind of thing where it also could have been It could have been anything muffins, like it could have been Yeah, it could have been anything. Yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_06:Maybe not anything. It does sound like that was actually a specific thing where you're like, that's not for me. Yeah, but looking for the outs. But it was there had been an accumulation of a feeling of, oh, I I mean I think there was a feeling of even though I had been in open things and I was free or whatever, I sort of did just want to have a relationship with you. And I think you didn't.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. I think maybe that's what it felt like like that, like, oh whether it was that or yeah, yeah, whether it was that or some other close or a vacation or something. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think um, yeah, and I just couldn't voice what that was, you know. But also it wasn't like oh, she mentioned toys, and toys are like uh, you know, it wasn't that. It was more like I think it was more about the close I viewed that as being like an invitation to be closer and more intimate. And so I think my reaction was like, uh, I don't know, uh you know, and then like I better get I gotta go, you know, that like just like the part of myself that I that I did that I hated, you know, that I didn't want to hate, but like it just really didn't like that part.
SPEAKER_06:Do you hate the fact that you couldn't articulate what you meant or the fact that you you weren't comfortable with someone wanting to be close to you?
SPEAKER_03:I think it was both of those things for sure. Yeah, because I you know, and I felt embarrassed for like feeling that way, you know. But also I didn't know how to talk about stuff like that.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I didn't I hadn't worked on that part. I was really good at the front end.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, you were really good at the front end for the fun part, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:The fun part, but the but the where you start to get more personal and that and that's like the biggest difference with like my relationship now. It's like this is the first relationship. I'm 53 now, first relationship I've had where there's tons of communication. Yeah, you know. I had like a couple partners before this current relationship that I started to practice that with some form of that, but I didn't have the level of connection, um, or I should say love, but just a different kind of love. And uh so I think with with my new partner, I think I think that ch I think I was just ready at that point, you know, to like talk about like how I'm feeling and like not waiting and you know, saying like this is how it's making me feel in this moment, you know, that kind of stuff where you're like, oh, this is increasing intimacy or whatever. So I think back then you, you know, at that stage of my life, I just was super under underdeveloped in that way. I hadn't, I wasn't even thinking about trying to figure out that that out.
SPEAKER_06:Well, you also didn't want to increase intimacy though. So that kind of worked. That's true. Yeah. Like it was a great uh protector.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I guess so. But it's also, you know, I I I try not to be stereotypical in many ways. You know, it's just like, ah, musicians, you know, I'm never dated musician again, you know, like that kind of stuff. Like I and I never wanted to be like standard, you know, whatever. I because I was never a one-night stand person. I didn't like that.
SPEAKER_06:I actually didn't know that.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, okay, yeah. I I I you know I've had like maybe three one night stands in my entire life.
SPEAKER_06:Wow.
SPEAKER_03:And um and those were just like it wasn't like I was seeking them, they it just circumstantially ended up that way. I just I just didn't like I didn't like that, you know. Also, I like I really have always loved women and have respected women um because my mom was such a good role model, and uh I just couldn't get to that level where it's like, oh, if you communicate clearly, that's also respecting you know, women anybody, but but also specifically like women when you're in a you know, if you're dating and you're just like, hey, I really like us dating, you know, I'm not sure if I'm ready to go further. You know, like I just didn't have that kind of communication skills.
SPEAKER_06:It's also very hard to say. It's very hard to say to somebody who really likes you. Yeah, you know, and it's pretty obvious that and that that you're not sure you're on the same page. I think it's like super hard.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, no, it I mean it is. The the funny thing is, like the more that you do it, the better it, you know, better it becomes, and like whatever the reaction of the other person is, like they'll always appreciate it, you know.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:No, for sure. Even the things you don't want to hear, yeah. You're like, thank you so much for telling me the truth. I mean, the truth is like the greatest thing. It's like such a delight to hear the truth. It's like unbelievable. I mean, it's like a really fun drug.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's it's amazing instead of like you know, a conflict avoidant, you know, to the point at which you're not saying what you know, but it's true that it is intimate.
SPEAKER_06:Even if you're saying to somebody, I don't want to be your boyfriend, it that the truth of that is intimate.
SPEAKER_03:That's true, yeah. Absolutely absolutely. Yes, it does increase intimacy. It's interesting. Yeah, it really does.
SPEAKER_06:So that's why breakups can be intimate.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:And like a real release, because you're like, oh my God, we're telling the truth. Yeah, finally. I think that we sort of hung out a little bit. I think it was a little nebulous because I don't think you said, hey, I don't think we should see each other anymore. I think there was a clear pulling back, but because you didn't say it, I was confused. And what's the word I would use? What's the word when you really are a mess?
SPEAKER_03:Discombobulated.
SPEAKER_06:But it's like a I don't know what the word is that I'm waiting for. Maybe it'll come. But I was like uh there was some kind of like a torn, like a what uh going back and forth, trying to figure it out, trying to logic it. Like I just did I I was like constantly trying to solve a problem.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:And like totally separate from you.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Uh so we sort of hung out, but it was always confusing a little. And then I remember we were going. I was taking you to a festival upstate at Heartland, where Paul had space.
SPEAKER_02:That's right.
SPEAKER_06:And that's when we really officially broke up.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_06:On the way. I think we'd just taken mushrooms. I mean, really ridiculous stuff. And I broke up with you. I broke up with me for you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:I mean, I did the breaking up with you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's that's yeah, that sounds about right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:But it was like at least there was some clarity.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_06:It was like, okay.
SPEAKER_01:Wow, yeah, pause.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. And then it was also that strange thing of which we sort of have touched on, but I don't feel like we've totally talked about it enough. This thing of we broke up, and then we go and you perform at like two in the morning, and everybody loves you and is going crazy for you. And we had just broken up. Like it's such a strange, just in general, and I think that I imagine this is something that has played out in other relationships of yours. Yeah. What it is for you to be a known entity and for people to love you. How like is that how what is that?
SPEAKER_03:I I mean, I don't know. I mean, I definitely understand the the complexity, you know, like uh, yeah, it's bizarre, you know, to like I just had a conversation with someone about something slightly terminal, and then uh and then you know, like, oh bear, go on stage, you know, and then there's this. It's definitely not like it doesn't feel like, oh, now I'm regaining, you know, energy or like um I'm glad this is happening because this is replenishing, you know, something that I just came away from or anything like that. It's very much separate, you know. But at the same time, I know that it can be really confusing to see, you know, if someone, you know, like especially you in that situation, you know.
SPEAKER_06:Confusing is the word I think I have not yet said. Yeah. Confusing.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, because you're like, what we just did that, and now he's doing that. And it's not like I'm just gonna be like, hey guys, I just broke up with somebody in the sets. Like, you know, you know what I mean, but I'm just saying, like, there's no way of No, I don't even think you were grappling with it.
SPEAKER_06:I think you just in an okay way, I understand showtime. Yeah. It just it was like it hadn't happened. It was like a shift. Yes. That's not that weird.
SPEAKER_03:No, no, no. That's not weird at all. But it is, I mean, it is objectively weird.
SPEAKER_06:Yes. And we were on mushrooms.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's true. We were on mushrooms. And also, you know, I had an eye on Paul because I was just like, what is this?
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:You know, it's just like some weird cult thing, you know, because it approached that level a little bit there.
SPEAKER_06:For sure.
SPEAKER_03:And Ben Dickinson, and yeah, who I'm still friends with. And I saw Paul recently, actually, too. Yeah, he looks well. Um, but you know, I was just like a little suspicious of the whole thing to No, you voiced that to me for sure.
SPEAKER_06:Because I was very involved in that, and you were like, is this okay?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So there's a little bit of that. So it was a kind of a mixture of a few few ingredients there, but I do remember that. Um, yeah, I do remember that. The the trip and the or at least definitely being there and mushrooms and you and performing, those things I remember for sure.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Crazy.
SPEAKER_06:And then over the years, every once in a while, we would try to hang out. And I don't mean try like we would hang out, yeah, yeah. But there was a couple of little disasters.
SPEAKER_01:There was?
SPEAKER_06:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:What what happened? Did I lose my napkin?
SPEAKER_06:This is maybe like six years ago, maybe.
SPEAKER_04:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_06:I went to your house.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:We got stoned. I, when you you had to leave at some point. We hung out for a while, and then you had to leave to go do some Dungeons and Dragons thing.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_06:And I was too stoned to drive. I just knew I was. I was like, I need to wait another hour before I drive, even though you live very close to me. Yeah. And um, so you were like, okay, well, you can stay. I'm gonna go. I gotta go to this thing. Yeah. And then you were you like showed me where the massage chair was. Uh-huh. And then I sat in the massage chair and it was like bliss. Like it was, it felt so good to be a little stoned in a nice massage chair. Yeah. And then there was an Amazon package in front of the massage chair.
SPEAKER_00:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_06:And then at some point the legs of the massage chair kicked up so that my legs were forward.
SPEAKER_00:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_06:And it kicked the Amazon package into the wall and punched a hole into the wall.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I do remember that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:It's a little bit of a disaster.
SPEAKER_01:I guess so, but that would be it.
SPEAKER_06:He's also painted a really specific color, so I was like, this is gonna be annoying in a couple ways to fix.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I I I yeah, I do remember that. But like uh, I mean, I don't remember that's not marked in my memory. It's like, oh I can't.
SPEAKER_06:I'm glad I reiterated. I'm like, then that happened. Well, and then a few years ago, uh-huh, you took me to dinner on my birthday.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_06:And you hadn't warned me, not that you need to, but you hadn't warned me that it was gonna be a I think a 15 course meal. Something really wild at Providence. Oh, yeah. Like really insane. And so I just ate regularly that day. I didn't like plan ahead for how much I was gonna be eating. Yeah. And it was too much food for me. And then on the way home, you drive a Porsche.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it could have been a Porsche at that time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:And you were showing me how much it speeds up.
SPEAKER_03:Oh my God.
SPEAKER_04:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_06:And we were gonna after that dinner, because we had an awesome time at dinner, we were gonna go dancing.
SPEAKER_04:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_06:You drop me off, and I opened the door, and then I just like threw up.
SPEAKER_03:Oh my god. Do you remember that? I love that I'm reminding of these things. I do remember that part, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:It did feel like those two things together felt like a little like, whoa, it's a little hard for them to hang out.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Yeah, just like some misfires.
SPEAKER_06:Yes. I mean, there is like a largeness to you. Like, yeah. Like those feel like sort of odd, heightened situations. Yeah, but I was like, this is such I mean, just in terms of plot, yeah. It's like, what?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Why?
SPEAKER_03:Wow, that's funny.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I do I do I do remember that. Yeah, that's crazy.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, that's like, you know, sometimes it's like, I guess the universe just you know, creating these, like, you know, you have the intention of wanting to, you know, hang out in s in some way, and then like these weird physical factors that could have been oversights, you know, could have been not seen, you know, at all. Who knows? But what for whatever reason it creates a a an interruption in the ability of it to manifest. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. Yeah. So funny. Yeah, weird. I don't know. Yeah, it's it's like history and keeping it. I mean, because like I don't know, I I like keeping in touch to a certain degree with people that I've been with, you know, because I feel like it's we have an exchange and it's valuable, and like there was a you know, positive things were gotten from it and so forth. And so it's it is nice to like keep in touch. And uh, but yeah, sometimes it's like, oh, I don't know. You're reminded, you know, or it's like the universe is like, well, now you're not supposed to like hang out right now, you know, or or now's not the great best time right now.
SPEAKER_06:Well, because and also you and I were not gonna get in a fight, that's not gonna be what we do. But somehow, like, there was still little explosions, right?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's so true. That's so true. That's so weird. Wow. Yeah, it's cool to like put it all together like that. Yeah, and then uh, but then like you wanted to do this for a long time, and it just was hard to link up on that.
SPEAKER_06:Well, I was curious whether you I mean I asked you sort of at the very beginning of this, but like, did you feel okay with that? Did that feel strange? Did that feel like an odd idea?
SPEAKER_03:No, uh no, I didn't I didn't think so at all. You know, no. I mean, I thought it was a cool idea, actually. Because he also it's cool for you to kind of remember stuff, you know, where you're like, oh right, oh, that's why you know, like it's it's nice to put yourself back in different versions of yourself that kind of help you understand uh how you are right now. So I get that. I was I thought that's yeah, it's brilliant.
SPEAKER_06:The remember stuff is interesting, and then the learn new stuff. I mean, that toy thing, never my whole life would I have known that so interesting. Yeah. It's I mean, it's yeah, it's specific, but it's yeah, that I mean, I love filling that in. And it's kind of amazing that at the time you weren't able to be direct about certain things that now you are, but it also is easier for you to say it to me now because it's been 15 years.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:So that is uh, I guess I want to ask more like abstract questions about um what it is to be drawn to someone and connected to someone, and yeah, what your relationship to other people is.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah. I mean uh wait a minute, say that again?
SPEAKER_06:It's a it's very abstract. Sort of what it means to you to be drawn to certain people and to connect to people, and what you in a certain way, and you've you've talked to me about this, I think, mostly when we were together, about feeling a little bit alien sometimes. Oh and so what it is for you, if it's hard, but also if it's meaningful to you to connect to people almost because you feel separate from oh, yeah. And whatever, you know, you don't have to directly answer that question, but just whatever that makes you say.
SPEAKER_03:No, I mean, uh, I think uh it's hard. I mean, it's like I you know, I'm always looking for the ability to connect with people. Um I haven't really had many best friends and things like that in life, you know, because not because I didn't want to, but I mean at the time it would have been like Tommy Smith, you know, the guy I was working with. And um and you know, and he and I had a falling out just because he had a he had a mental break um or a mental health break. And um yeah, so I guess nowadays I've you know, in the last two years I found a really good crew of people that I now consider my family, you know, so people from uh who live in Berlin, you know, this they have a band called Cap Yak. And so we've become really good friends and made music together, and we toured together in the UK and met Craig Richards and Amanda Eastwood who started the Houghton Festival and uh West west coast of England and just like an amazing, amazing electronic music festival. And they're just becoming better and better friends all the time. So there's there's that starting to happen a little bit more, like there's a little bit more of a closeness happening for those types of people, and then and then because I'm in a relationship that has a lot of open communication and we're able to show love to each other like all the time and and you know, and support each other, and then I'm learning how to support them, you know, too right now. They're going through family things, and I'm like that triggers my family experiences, you know, with my parents, and then like how how do I communicate that without sounding selfish, you know, things like that. You know, so there I think like with that relationship, that's like my closest relationship. And her the other day, you know, we were on the couch and we'd been away from each other a while, and she'd been in South Carolina dealing with her dad, who's passed away now, but like was passing away. And um, and I remember she just on the couch, she just said like she really missed me and was crying, and I was like, Oh my god. Like, you know, to yeah, it was just like and then she said like later on the conversation, she's like, You're my best friend, and I was just like, Oh, wow, this is incredible, you know, like because I do feel that way about her, but to hear it from her was really, yeah, just very moving, very connected, you know, in a way that I hadn't been before. And so there's a lot of newness in that. It's like I'm only coming into that now in my life where I feel less like I still feel like an alien, but now I have like a couple of other aliens with me, you know, observing this reality. And uh, so it's like I didn't have to give up my alien feeling because the alien feeling is kind of what gives me my ability to do what I do, you know. And uh and I've had many friends, you know, call me alien, you know, an alien, you know, whatever, but I think of that as great. Um but yeah, now I just feel like people are in on it with me, you know, actively, and they're their own version of that in their own lives. So yeah, that's kind of how it is now. Whereas the past I I would have been like amiable and cordial and fantastic for people, you know, like elevating people. I love like, you know, elevating my community or like finding an amazing artist. And like, you know, I got a text from Kate Berlant today saying that she bought a hotel room for uh um for a comedian that she really believes in that um couldn't afford traveling to another city, but she wants them to be able to do that, so she just paid for the hotel room, and she said that she learned that from me.
unknown:Wow.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's pretty cool. So, you know, so it's like learning through life. Uh you know, finding a partner definitely softens me, you know, in a cool way.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And uh allows me to be kind of rooted and more emotional. Like, you know, I just I keep look I lose it very easily now these days, you know. So it's like very compassionate. I see someone on the street doing something really sweet for somebody. I'm just like crying, or I see someone having a hard time, and you know, I it's just it's weird. It's it's definitely more I have more access to emotion. I've been more emotional than I have in the last year being with this person than I probably have in like, you know, the former 10 years before easily. So yeah, so that's different. And and it's still me learning, you know, after even like her being with her father and uh coming back and me going like, you know, I gonna I'm gonna support her, and I'm gonna like if I need to go to South Carolina again, I'll go with her and I'll s because that's what you do when you're in a partnership. And instead of being like the selfish only child that's just like, I don't want to go, you know. Um it's like no, it's not about you, it's about the people in your life and how you support them. And you know, so I've had to figure out new ways of being supportive, aside from because like I was really good at being supportive through material means, you know, like, oh, you need to do this thing, like let me just take care of it for you, or you need to go over here, like I'll I'll get you a ride to go over here, you know, because those are things that I'm comfortable with, those are ways I can support that I'm comfortable with, but being with people emotionally through pretty intense situations, that's a that's a new a new one for me, you know. It's like stuff I've seen in movies, you know, or things that I've seen friends talk about, you know, but I hadn't necessarily done that. So interesting. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:So glad I asked that abstract question. What a beautiful answer. So beautiful. Yeah, I've never seen you get emotional before, honestly. It's pretty, it's like stunning.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, really, really, really. Um okay, let's see if there's any last little things. Uh this is a vulnerable question to ask. Well, I guess I'll ask two at once because one feels less vulnerable. Um what do you think of me? And uh, do you ever think of me?
SPEAKER_01:What do I uh what do I think of you?
SPEAKER_02:What do I ever think of you?
SPEAKER_03:Um Well, I mean I think of I guess I think of you as just someone that's like always involved in what you want to be involved with, you know. Like um like I assume that not knowing like the the details of your life, it's like I always assume that you're doing interesting things, that you're you know, aligned with interesting people and organizations and um involved as a connector and you know, someone who's interested in oh, because I definitely know that you're a very curious person, so uh I imagine you always being involved in some kind of like expansive, exposed uh social kind of circles is one one way I think of you. Uh yeah, just like as an explorer, I guess, you know, like someone who's like I wouldn't be surprised at whatever you said that you were working on because you're just kind of doing what you're interested in and uh seeing where things lead you. And yeah, I mean yeah, of course, like I I think of you from from time to time, you know. It's like it's uh yeah, it's not like all the time like you want me to be, but like uh you know, like yeah, you know, a few times a year, you know, I would say, you know, or like I'll meet somebody and that reminds me of like times in Williamsburg or you know, um for sure, yeah. Yeah, I think that that's very fair to say. Yeah. And I mean and I see a lot of people from old, you know, Williamsburg days you know, a few times a year or two, so that that does it too. But yeah, sometimes I don't or like your name will pass by like in, you know, I'm doing a search or whatever, we're like, oh yeah, Miriam. And yeah. I don't wonder how Miriam's doing, you know.
SPEAKER_06:Um yeah, I do wanna uh reiterate that catalyst thing for me. It's a big thing and it feels like such a nice opportunity to say it to you. I feel like part of there's like a mortality through line in the podcast of this is like not that this is the last time I'll ever be able to say anything to you at all. Yeah, but it does feel like this like wonderful opportunity to say a thing that you could let slip by and never have said. Yeah. But after we broke up, I did stand up for a while, and then I got back into acting, which I had had been such a big part of my life when I was a kid, and things really shifted, and I eventually moved to LA. Like my life expanded in the way you were just talking about softening, and um yeah, I just became much more who I am supposed to be. And I do even think the hard part, the confusion, the like battle with not understanding what was going on with you, the wanting you to like me, all that stuff, um, was sort of part of you know, it's like any spiritual milestone, there is often. And something very difficult. And it just yeah, that is totally part of the story that I think even if we're not very regularly in each other's lives, you had a real impact on my life in in moving it. Like I'd even say in like leaping it forward into where it's supposed to be. And yeah, I'm so grateful to you.
SPEAKER_03:Thanks for telling me that. That's amazing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah. I mean yeah, that's yeah, that's incredible.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. I remember even you did a show at PS1 that I organized, and it was the first comedy show I did there. Yeah. And you were very supportive. Like and we had broken up. Like we hadn't been together for a while, but you just were very loving about it. Um there were just these moments like since that I did feel supported by you. Yeah. Um and yeah, I mean, just like what you do is totally amazing. That you take things out of thin air. It just feels um it feels so it feels so cool to have rubbed up against that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Wow. Yeah, I mean, I I you know, it's like I have moments of that in my life, you know. I definitely understand that. But it's also like something that I hope, you know, that I can do. You know, sometimes I'm like, well, I can't be close to people in the way that people expect me, but at least I can do that. Like, if I can just do a little bit of that, that would be great. You can do a lot of that, you know?
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, I mean that Kate Berlant thing is awesome.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I mean, Kate Berlant quote today just like blew me away. I was just like beautiful. Wow. That's cool. Because, you know, it's like Kate and I, you know, it's a similar thing. It's like, you know, Kate and I were in each other's, I mean, we were never romantic, but like I believed in her.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:You know, and I uh was there, you know, for a lot of her formative years and and uh, you know, her and and John early too. But I recognized a lot of myself in her. And so, you know, I saw that and I was like, oh, cool, you know, in a way it's kind of selfish because I wanted like another person like me out there, you know, that I could uh a cousin, you know, or sister. And um yeah, and you know, and then then things started just happening for her, of course, because she's incredibly talented and and then it just kind of took off, you know, and and then we you know, we dance around like seeing each other at an event, or you know, and it's and sometimes we'll be like, Oh, let's get dinner, you know, because she's in a great relationship now, and and we always talk about it, but it hasn't happened, but it's nice to hear something that personal from her, you know, because uh yeah, because we don't talk in that way, you know. Uh she's been very busy and yeah, we don't so yeah, so like having that come out, I was like, Oh, she she hasn't she hasn't forgotten or she or she remembered why that was easier for her to make that decision to support this person. And you know, and then I just responded saying, like, you know, thank you for letting me know that it's really beautiful, just like you're letting me know this. Uh, because we live in a community, you know, and it's easy to forget that, uh, even if we're not necessarily in the same exact uh crafts or whatever, like we are in a community of supporting each other, inspiring each other, and uh and that and that doesn't ha necessarily have to do with the frequency of time, you know. It's just like what you took away from spending time with people uh counts, it's there, it matters, it's not like you're we're always in this uh infinite. I mean we are in this infinite moment, but but also we're a sum of our experiences in that moment. And uh yeah, so it's good to hear those things, you know, because I I love being able to share that, you know, when people have affected me in whatever way, you know, and just let them know and try to, you know, do it in a way that that allows them to see that clarity, you know, from myself. So they can like, oh, oh, I see, that's cool. Thanks for because that's such good information for all of us to hear about ourselves. How are we affecting, you know? And I'm sure you've uh supported so many people throughout your existence and continue to do so. And uh yeah, and it's just like nice to recognize that in one another. It's a lot of work.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:It's not like work work, but like you're motivated to do it. But it is it drags you along sometimes. It like it it wants you to do that. And sometimes we might be low energy in life, but we're like, no, I wanna I want to still support. Yes. I'm I'm I might be not fully hundred percent, but I'll still give away some of that energy, gladly give away some of that energy.
SPEAKER_06:Especially for creativity, especially for someone who is in those burgeoning stages, for you to say, Oh, I I I feel like you can do this. Yeah, of course, once everybody loves you, everybody loves you. But to have just those few people who say, Oh, I know you're kind of in the muddy part of this, but I think this is amazing.
SPEAKER_03:It's like Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see it. It's like I I I see it clearly. I believe yeah, I believe what you're doing. It's like like you're doing exactly it's because sometimes like we receive it, or like, you know, uh I've said that to people and they you know, they might it doesn't seem like they're maybe receiving it or whatever, but but they are because they have so many times people come back and say, Hey, you know that one time when you blah blah blah, and be like, oh yeah, it's like like that really meant a lot to me. And then if I think back about it, I'm like, oh, I don't remember them like really acknowledging it or anything.
SPEAKER_06:Right. Oh, I really know this person emailed me last year who I went to middle school with. I was in eighth grade, she was in seventh she then now goes by they, yeah, seventh grade. And they had a short haircut. I was in eighth grade, they called me a cool eighth grader. Yeah, and um I said I I like your haircut.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:And they said they'd been so bullied in middle school to have a cool eighth grader say that their haircut was cool. Was so important to them. And this is now 35 years later, they write me an email, they find me online and write me an email to tell me it was so and it was just an off-the-cuff thing. I wasn't doing it to be supportive. Right, right. I had no idea. Right. But it's those like, I mean, that's like the cool I mean, it's obviously such a gift to me. Yeah, I didn't mean to do anything. Yeah, I legitimately thought it was a very cool haircut, but yeah, those things are so beautiful.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Well, it goes to show you like everything that you do in life, not that you're you know being monitored or it's a record or you know, a competition or anything like that, but like that idea of like no matter where you go, if you're who you are and you're doing the best that you can be in that moment, that you know, people will recognize that as you. And yeah, you know, and I think Yeah, and I think that that's like something that I've always believed believed in just because you know, when I was a kid, uh there was a Michael Jackson impersonator. I've told this story a few times, but but it's kind of like a formative memory where this impersonator did like four Michael Jackson hits, you know, in the 80s, or I was probably like 12 or something like that, and I was a huge Michael Jackson fan. And I was like, whoa, this is the closest thing I get to see to Michael Jackson. It's like that's amazing. Oh, and he can moonwalk, that's crazy, I can't do it, you know. And then afterwards it was at a county fair in Great Falls, Montana, and afterwards he was standing to get to do signatures, and I just saw like how dismissive he was of like he didn't want to be there. Wow, you know, the vibes.
SPEAKER_00:Wow.
SPEAKER_03:And I remember seeing that watching him as the line was like going down, and I remember telling myself in that moment, like if I ever get to a place where I'm on stage and I've got people's attention and things of that nature, like I'm never going to treat people like that. Like that is like I don't want to say despicable, but like it's it's so unappreciative of what you have access to, you know, what people are giving to you. And I yeah, and that really had a huge effect on me. So like how old are you? I was like 12.
SPEAKER_06:Wow.
SPEAKER_03:You know, like eleven or twelve, something like that. Maybe twelve. Yeah. And and since then, like you know, even in drama, when I was in drama, I was like, um the first people I make friends with in drama are the stage hands. You know. Yeah, because it's like people work so hard. And I understand that. You know, it's like I understand what it's like to just like you're doing your thing and you feel like kind of like a person who's like one of the, you know, the ship hand this it's like if I was on a ship, I'd make friends with the person pulling the ropes. If I was anywhere, I always like go for if you're the janitor, I'm I'm gonna hang with you a little bit. Might even help you. Uh because my mother was such a hard worker, you know. And I understand. So, yeah, these little moments that happen in life are huge because it lets you know, like, you don't have to be that way. In a way, I'm glad I met that dude. You know, glad I saw that Michael Jackson personator who's miserable. Um, I'm glad. I'm grateful for to that person for that because you know, I I don't I never want to take that shit for granted whenever whenever I'm doing anything. And I think that that's why even today, I one of the biggest compliments I ever got was like, you're you're like a you're like a famous person that doesn't act like a famous person. And I was like, Yeah, I don't that's that's not being a famous person to me. Like, if you're well known for things, it's like everybody's different and everyone handles that energy different. So I never expect anybody who gets to be well known at what they do to make an effort to try to relate to people, you know, in a way. It's like I I don't necessarily care about that. I just don't like hearing when people snub people, ignore people, isolate people, uh, they don't reflect back the love that's being given to them, and I see them just throwing it away. Like that bums me out. Again, they're their own individuals, and I'm not here to say like that's wrong. I'm just saying that for me, I it would it would devastate me to know that a fan thought that I treated them terribly. Uh, and maybe that's an ego thing, you know, maybe it's rooted in some deep ego thing where it's like I want people to think favorably of me, but I also think there's a reason beyond that, which is that moment with Michael Jackson, you know, the Michael Jackson impersonator. It's like I know how crucial those types of things can be, especially you know, when someone comes up in there, like they could be uh like terrified to approach somebody and then they come up in what a relief. They're like, hey, I see you. What's what's going on? You know, tell me what you have to say. Like, I'll spend time with you. You know, I love it. And it's like it gives me energy to listen to someone you know who's taking the time out of their day. It's like the least I can do. It's like I have the easy job. Uh I I I get asked to play a thing. I I I go and I play a thing, I have a really good time and uh and I make a living from it. You know, that's the easy part. Uh and so I don't know. So I guess all that to say, uh I recognize that, and I and I have to I have to always be on the ground. I can't I can't be someone you know, I learned that from Conan actually.
SPEAKER_00:Oh wow.
SPEAKER_03:You know, uh, you know, part of it was reinforced by Conan because Conan, you know, I said that at the Mark Twain Twain Awards, I I performed at the Mark Twain Awards, he won the Mark Twain uh prize uh at the Kennedy Center. And I said it from stage, and I also got emotional about it, but I just said like I always call him a good king because he when we were on tour, he was doing his own makeup, he was doing his own hair, he never had security around. He would walk out into the crowd after the show if he wanted to. He'd walk freely in the world, um, you know, and he has a family and stuff like that. It's like there's a lot of reasons he wouldn't have to be that way. But he's a person of the people, he needs that energy, you know, and uh and he makes himself available to his fans, and he's self-deprecating in a way that, you know, he's just telling you, like, I'm just a guy. I understand I'm good at what I do, but I'm just a guy, like you, a person, like you, and uh, and I learned that from him. I was like, oh, that's cool. I I would have still done what I'm doing now, but to see that on his level, you know, because at that time during that tour, you know, he was what everybody was talking about. Like, oh, he got snubbed. He got like whatever happened with this tonight's show thing, like that was his dream, and or not tonight's show, but the whatever it was, the show that Linda was hosting. Maybe it is tonight's show. Um, and uh getting snubbed and whatever, all of that stuff, all that attention, and all the people that are coming out for his shows and the people that he got. That's how he met Jack White, I think, is through Conan, I believe. You know, and anyways, all that to say that that was such a height of craziness, and yet he was still super ground, and he would like hang out in my dressing room for like 10-15 minutes, talk about stuff. I grew up Catholic, so sometimes we'd like do Catholic stuff, you know, to each other, say stuff back and forth to each other. Um, yeah, and I just got along with him and I was like, this motherfucker is so cool. He's like, he's definitely Hollywoody. He's got like the Hollywood friends and stuff. He's got Will Farrell and all these people, you know, people are like his friends, but he's gonna always be a person of the people. And and and so that that's exciting to me because I think when it's accessible, if if you do something that makes people go like, whoa, how did you date? How are you doing that? You know, but then like afterwards, you're just like, hey, what's going on? You want to get a grilled cheese? You know, like, come on, that's the coolest thing in the world.
SPEAKER_06:Well, and I think it's not just about have giving someone a good experience, I think it's about suggesting that they can also be creative or inspiring, or you know, I think there is a yeah, at least that was you know, that was my experience with you. So I think that that is the other level of it. It's not just like, oh yeah, now everyone's gonna feel good. I mean, it obviously doesn't feel good for uh someone to be rude to you. Yeah. But it's also this little like pull this rope, you too can be yourself, you know?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like there's no reason. Like if I can do it, like wherever you're at in life, like you just remain, remember that you're a being on the planet with a bunch of other beings. And it's like we can get caught up in all the categories and the labels and the judgments that we get off of like their vibe or their clothes or whatever, but like you have to at least acknowledge that there's a conscious being inside of that structure that looks like whatever it looks like and sounds like whatever it sounds like. So I think it's that recognition of consciousness and one another. I think that that's for me. That's like that's what I want to get in with that. Like, I'm I'm really never I'm really I've had so many people come up and they're like like almost trembling or whatever, and then like we talk, and then by the end of it, I see that they're they're relaxed, and I'm like, ah, that's so cool.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Then they can be a good version of themselves. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And they're just like, oh, I didn't need to do it. It's like, yeah, you don't need that energy that you're coming up with. It's not like you're not meeting, you're not meeting um Taylor Swift. You know, it's not, it's not that. Taylor Swift is never going to, yeah. Taylor Swift is never going to uh, you know, the the level the way that she's presented, it's like it's gonna be rare. She's gonna, it's gonna be more like a Disney princess vibe. Like, I'll grant you some of my time. You know, it'll it's gonna be more that I and then that's how that's how she's presented, and that's totally fine. For me, I'm like, I can't do that's not my thing. That's not how I present myself either. So, you know, because if I did, I would just be, I'd go crazy and be like, what are you doing? That's like, ah, that doesn't feel right. Yeah, you know, not whatever, Taylor Swift, whatever. But like, for me, anyways, but and that's why like when I went to Ian Mackay's birthday party, you know, and seeing all of those friends, like all like some of the most influential, you know, people of the last 30 years, you know, all hanging out, you know, but they're all in their grungy fucking post-punk wear, you know, messy hair, fucked up teeth, you know, like ragged clothes, uh, but cool as fuck, you know, like there's they still dress that way because they are those people. That's what they are. They're the people who originated it, you know, that whole Gen X crew. It's like, and you know, and I'm Gen X, and so I try to rap in that way too. It's just like, yeah, we knew we we were part of a lot of firsts in culture, you know. It's like MTV and music videos and types of music and you know, hearing rap for the first time, you know, all that stuff. Like we were in that generation. I think like for me, I like passing down generational uh awareness, you know, because I have a lot of millennial and Gen Z friends now, and uh some of it is like not having a kid, and some of it is like just having a childlike essence to what I do, and I need that energy because generally people who are my age are like they've got families and mortgages, and you know, and and not that that's bad or anything like that, but they're just usually not available as available as I am to go like, oh, your band's playing tonight, I'll be there. Oh, where are you guys gonna be? I'll I'll be there, I'll support that. Uh oh, you want me to do this? Yeah, let's do that. Oh, you want to go out to your house and hang out till like six, six, six in the morning on a weird couch? Yeah, let's go, let's go do that. You know, like I'm I'm available to those things because I I like being there. I like being like, oh, what's he doing here? You know, I love that vibe. Where it's like, why you why are you here? And I was like, I I am. I I'm here because I love it. Like I love being around you guys. You guys are cool, and I can tell you stories and you can tell me stories, you know, and and and we can share in that intergenerational exchange. And I and and so that's I don't know, it's pretty cool. Uh uh life is you know pretty amazing, and I'm glad that you had me on because like it's cool to talk like this. It's wonderful.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. Is there any last teeny tiny anything you feel like any last teeny tiny thing?
SPEAKER_03:Um no, other than, you know, I I hope we continue to be in each other's lives.
SPEAKER_00:Me too.
SPEAKER_03:You know? Um, because uh it's cool to, you know, have people you can check in with that have known you for a long time, you know, in different ways. And I think like me knowing you and the way I have and hearing more about where you're at in life and you know, just the tip of the iceberg, but like, you know, knowing more about that is is cool because it's like, oh, that's good to fill that in. You know, especially when it's just happening, it's coming to you, you know. It's like, and then we're doing that with each other. That's great. It's just a natural way of continuing. So I'm I'm glad. And I was always looking forward to doing this, and I'm glad it finally happened.
SPEAKER_06:Good.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks, Mary. It's so beautiful. So beautiful to see you cry, my god.
SPEAKER_03:Oh my gosh. Sorry about that. No, please don't be sorry.
SPEAKER_06:It was like it was really moving. Uh I cried too.
SPEAKER_03:It was so stunning. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:I love seeing this, like another. That was like another opening.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, it's the the relationship effect, I guess. The love effect, let's put it that way.
SPEAKER_05:I want you all still to answer my questions. I still want to know. How can you be so high?
SPEAKER_06:Huh, Reg. The hummingbirds were really out for this episode, which has happened a few times during interviews. Hummingbirds like the Exapheel podcast. Thank you for taking that in. Thank you for listening with love. Thank you. Thank you, Reggie, again for changing my life, for crying, for being a force of good and creativity in this world. And to everyone listening, you complete me.
SPEAKER_05:X appeal is so real. Exapeal is so real, exapeal is so real. You are open, you are closed. You are open, you are closed. X appeal is so real.