The Ex Appeal Podcast
Host Miriam Katz interviews every person she has ever been romantic with on any level, from a 5th grade pizza date to an orthodox rabbi to a stripper she once hooked up with. Every. Single. Person.
The Ex Appeal Podcast
“I'm The Rabbi That Got Away” – Dating Religious
Host Miriam Katz dated Yaakov when they were 19. In this episode they navigate religion in relationships, missed opportunities, and longing. The original hot rabbi. A holy one.
Audio engineering by Jeremy Emery and Lamps Lampanella
Theme song melody and vocals by Miriam Katz, instrumentals by Jon Steinmeier
Logo designed by Anna Nguyen and Ryn Davis
Photo by Dana Patrick
It's over, but I still have questions. It's over, but I still have questions. X appeal is so real. X appeal is so real. X appeal is so real. X appeal is so real. X appeal is so real. X appeal is so real. Hi, hi, hi.
SPEAKER_03:Welcome back to the X appeal podcast. You're very cute. This is a surprising one. I dated Yaakov when we were 19. He was and is an Orthodox Jew, and he's now the head of a religious school. Looking back on dating him makes me think about the connection between acting and dating. I feel like sometimes when I date, I take on parts of myself that I may not have before and learn a lot about different worlds. Not saying that it's fake, but it's just a way to try out a different part of yourself. And yeah, I think especially in this case, I was finding out about what it is to be religious in that whole world. That is not to say that that is why I did Yaakov, but I definitely um tried on a different part of myself. My friend Tony made fun of me once because we were at a restaurant and I was talking to the Sommelier, and I was attracted to him, and I guess I took on a totally different tone. Like her and I are very silly together. And with him, I became very serious and just spoke in this like totally different voice. So yeah, I think I can uh do some matchy matchy stuff, and that can be fun. So I did try being religious for a summer uh and learning what it is like to be a religious person. And I had a lot of fun with Yaakov. And as he and I talk about, he wasn't totally sure about doing the podcast when I asked him. So I was very impressed that he both did it and that he spoke so openly on it. And he's really funny about the religious question, like in this little moment here.
SPEAKER_00:I have to choose between God and Miriam.
SPEAKER_03:OMG. Okay, so yeah, have fun with this one. You like drugs, you like God. You like drugs, you like God. You like drugs, and you like God. My god, I'm so happy to see you.
SPEAKER_01:You too, I'm sorry, has taken so long.
SPEAKER_03:I understand. It's life. And you fasted today.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, fasting sucks. Do you feel clear though? Yeah, well, I finally got a chance to eat, so now I feel much better.
SPEAKER_03:But I mean, some people fast, like it like in a hipster way.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Yeah. So I I mean, like just from a I'm too busy and I'm being an idiot, I usually don't really eat anything until about 12 30.
SPEAKER_03:Um that's like Oh, so you intermittent fast without by accident. That's really funny.
SPEAKER_01:I irresponsibly intermittently fast. Um but I, you know, I'll I I do a lot of tea for caffeine purposes. Um, so that's my go-to. But food-wise, not so much. But today is like from you know, 3 30 in the morning till 9 p.m.
SPEAKER_03:Yo, why was it so late?
SPEAKER_01:Because it's one of the latest, like it's one of the longest days of the year.
SPEAKER_03:And you have to make sure that you get it from like dawn till sundown.
SPEAKER_01:I not until nightfall. So it was like literally like 3 30. It's on 9 02 today. So not fun.
SPEAKER_03:Which one is today?
SPEAKER_01:Today is the is Shiva Assar Bitamo's the seventh day, 17th day of the month of Tamuz. It's the one that commemorates a bunch of bad things, but um Moses breaking the tablets and the beginning of the Siege of Jerusalem that leads to three weeks later, the destruction of the temple. So a lot of bad stuff, but you know, nowadays we have to deal with it by not eating or drinking, which is not fun.
SPEAKER_03:Um, shall we? We shall. You look great. Okay, good. Thank you. I feel great.
SPEAKER_01:Good. Is this the apartment that is going to be um sublet soon?
SPEAKER_03:Yes, 100%. We can advertise it, although this won't be out in time. But I'm sure I'll be subletting again. So somebody please sublet my place so I can go on a nice vacation.
SPEAKER_01:I can verify right now that she is not lying. At least in this shot, it looks lovely and lots of natural sunlight.
SPEAKER_03:I know. It's seven o'clock and there's light. It's perfect.
SPEAKER_01:Not bad.
SPEAKER_03:It's perfect. Um, okay. Lots to ask. Lots to ask about.
SPEAKER_01:Going forward.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Do you remember how we met?
SPEAKER_01:Um like a specific moment or in general?
SPEAKER_03:I mean, I know that we met at camp. Did we meet because I was a CIT at Kahila?
SPEAKER_01:Were you a CIT at Keila?
SPEAKER_03:I was. The second month. Wow.
SPEAKER_01:I remember.
SPEAKER_03:It was very actor, it was very actress of me. I was like, well, what's this all about?
SPEAKER_01:That's fantastic. You were slumming it with us. Um, I remember meeting you not as a CIT. It was definitely a camp. Shout out to uh Camp Uh Grossman in uh JCC camp in Boston. Um I remember meeting you um when we were counselors and you were working for, I don't know if there was a name for the like the differently abled stuff and like oh special needs box.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, yes. Okay, so okay, so did we meet the summer we dated?
SPEAKER_01:Might have been.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:It might have been.
SPEAKER_03:I remember us being 19.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's right. That's right.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so then that's when we met. I didn't know whether we had met earlier because I knew I'd had like a run-in with the religious people.
SPEAKER_01:I want to know who you dated that summer.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, yeah, at the age of 15 as a CIT. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly right.
SPEAKER_03:Um, okay, and do you remember how we met?
SPEAKER_01:My recollection is that um we, you know, the crazy long road uh walkway from the where most of the bunk houses were all the way down to the waterfront. Yes. Somewhere near the office area, I think you were counseloring with some of your special needs campers. And I I remember noticing you um and being enamored and watching you kind of um do your thing as a counselor was also pretty cool. And I think my guess is that I said something funny and or clever, and uh then we started talking.
SPEAKER_03:That's funny that we met right in the walkway. I remember talking a lot around the buses.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, good call.
SPEAKER_03:Uh, so I didn't know if that's where we met, but I think that's where like flirting happened daily. So it was like I knew for a fact that I was gonna flirt with you at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_01:For sure. Nice, excellent. Yes, so many good memories of that. That is definitely one of the positive bus memories. The other one was uh unrelated to Miriam and Yaakov, was Little Yaakov as a camper at the same bus area and getting on the bus and getting help memorizing the lyrics to We Didn't Start the Fire by my bus counselor, BJ Novak. At the time was just Ben.
SPEAKER_03:What?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, isn't that cool?
SPEAKER_03:He was a counselor at Grossman.
SPEAKER_01:He was a counselor, he was a responsible counselor. They gave him bus detail.
SPEAKER_04:Uh sometimes that's just because you live at the end of the line. Like I was also.
SPEAKER_03:In Newton. Wait, we can't, but he's not that much older than us. Is it? I guess he must be.
SPEAKER_01:He's like three or four years older than us or whatever it is, and that makes you a counselor when I'm a kid. Are you guys still best friends? Oh, the best. The best.
SPEAKER_03:Good, good, good. Wow, that is a good detail. That's a pretty good one.
SPEAKER_01:Not as good as Florida with Miriam it the other day.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, good, good, good. I'm glad I um I'm better aware about this.
SPEAKER_01:Well up there than Ben Novak. Um, it was fun. It was uh it was it was a great summer.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:The summer between I spent two gap years in Israel after finishing high school, and it was the summer between those two gap years.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so I do remember that you were going to Israel, but I didn't realize that you had been in Israel the year before.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's my recollection. Is it was it we were 19 or we were 18? Because if we were 18, I had just finished high school, and so would you. And if we were 19, then I think I had just gotten back from one year, and I'm pretty sure that's right. And I was on my way to my second.
SPEAKER_03:I think I was going into my sophomore year of college. Because I think I remember going back to New York, not who. Yes, I think that's correct. I feel like I remember being 19. Um, and then do you remember anything about us engaging, like before we like, I don't know, went on some kind of a date which we can try to map out. But do you remember anything about us engaging before that? I do remember you were very funny. And I think like making jokes was a big part of how we engaged.
SPEAKER_01:Excellent. I that sounds accurate. I remember that summer was so as a counselor in Grossman, um, I I worked in Kahila, the now non-existent, um, recently relatively non-existent Orthodox unit at Camp Grossman. Um, yeah, it's crazy. Like uh I think it was only about five, six, seven years ago. Uh it's pre-COVID, but like a few years ago that they put the kibosh on the unit. The campus still thriving. Um, my recollection is that because they gave a lot of autonomy, I don't know why, to the counselors to make their own schedules. There was a lot of me scheduling myself so that I had a lot of free time with which to hang out with you. Uh and also hang out at the waterfront. Oh. You just did whatever you wanted.
SPEAKER_04:Maybe that was a kahila thing.
SPEAKER_01:I remember scheduling deliberately, like instructional swing, free swim, next to fishing or boating, so that I could spend like a consecutive two and a half hours at the waterfront.
unknown:Cool.
SPEAKER_01:It was solid. It was pretty solid.
SPEAKER_03:And do you remember any specific? I mean, this is a many, many years ago. We're 22 now. But um, do you remember any I kind of don't from being at camp except for like the vagueness of like fun and flirting and funny? But is there any specific interaction that you remember?
SPEAKER_01:I remember that we were very flirty, explicitly flirty slash hanging out a lot. There was like a staff dance party. Do you remember that? Oh. There was like a staff get together like dance party. I don't remember where. Maybe it was on campus, like in camp, and maybe it was somewhere else.
SPEAKER_03:Um, because you would have like staff meetings, so yeah.
SPEAKER_01:No.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, maybe it was at the JCC. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I think it was at the JCC, and it was like either like in the middle of the summer. Yeah, it was in the middle of the summer, and it was like a get-together, and I was your incredibly um very, very confident in my wallflower status. And that was the first time I remember you teaching me that term. I didn't know that term.
SPEAKER_03:Wallflower?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:But I don't think of you as a wallflower.
SPEAKER_01:I I'm not. Yeah, I'm not exactly your your quiet type, but uh I but the idea, especially as a 19-year-old kid, also a little bit conflicted in the sense that like I had just come back from a year studying in seminary in Israel. I was going back for a second year, which is, I would say, for the community and the school I came from, going for a gap year to study in yeshiva in a seminary in Israel, that's pretty normal. Going back a second year says a little bit like, oh, you're uber committed, kind of a thing. So there was a certain level of conflict and a certain level of I don't go to a lot of dance parties. So therefore, this is new territory, uncomfortable. And um, when are they gonna turn on the electric slide so that I can feel confident in knowing the dance moves kind of a thing?
SPEAKER_03:But was it about dancing or was it about like religiousness and not sure being sure it was appropriate to be there?
SPEAKER_01:Probably a combination of both. Um I would say that the at that stage of life, the but probably the most honest answer is that it was more about the fear of looking like an idiot and definitely some conscious and subconscious, is this religiously, you know, right, quote unquote. But that is going to be the um, I think a lot more of the Monday night quarterbacking reason. But a lot of it came down to if I felt more confident and comfortable, then maybe I wouldn't have had as many questions about is this feeling, you know, not in a not in a good way, you know, not in a bad way. Just I don't know that I would have felt as religiously conflicted if I felt more confident. And because I felt less confident, it was easier to feel like, oh, I don't know if I should be doing this. And that's the real reason I don't want to.
SPEAKER_03:Got it. Interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I mean, I also think that had you not grown up religious, then you would have been more used to those kind of events. So you would have had that confidence. So it's it's definitely intertwined at every level.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, for sure. For sure. I agree with you on that one.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. And do you remember? Okay, so you remember hanging out at that dance, and do you remember dancing together?
SPEAKER_01:Maybe a little bit. It's like a vague memory at that point. It's just like you said, we're already 22, so it's been a little while. Um did we talk at it a lot?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I remember hanging out with you quite a bit. Did you feel conflicted about learning in public with me?
SPEAKER_01:No. No, no, not at all. No, it was more just it was about like being at a dance party, which was, you know, when I was in seventh and eighth grade, it was like, oh, okay, this is what we do in Sharon on a Saturday. Yes. Um but then once it was like I'm post-gap year in Israel, it was like, oh You're an adult. This is not done.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, in oh, that's what you're even saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also there's a different level. Like in seventh grade, you're meant to be awkward. And somehow at some point you're supposed to be. I don't know. Maybe that's true.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, it's not a good thing.
SPEAKER_04:Some people were like peaked in middle school, you know?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, I feel bad for those people. Um I I listen, I did not I did not have like the horrendously I hate middle school in my life. Like I actually enjoyed middle school. Yeah. But um, so I I know I was awkward now, but in middle school I didn't feel awkward. Did you?
SPEAKER_03:I didn't think of you as awkward. Uh I mean, I always was really sort of center of attention-y.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, same.
SPEAKER_03:And I was always I was a little bit more unusual, so it was less awkward because I sort of just forged my own path. I was like, this is my deal. I'm not trying to be like everyone. But of course I had awkward. I mean, I I didn't look good in my bot mitzvah pictures, I'll tell you that much. Nice, nice.
SPEAKER_04:Just not cute. Like, just not the time to capture me over and over and over again.
SPEAKER_01:My favorite was uh was going to these Bene Mitzvah celebrations, and I did not get my girl spurt at 13. So like the girls that I'd be dancing with would literally have to take their heels off because I was like 5'3, maybe. Um and so like he was cute, but also like not exactly a confidence boost of like, can you please take your shoes off so that I look like I'm fine? Good time.
SPEAKER_03:Um, do you remember how we got from hanging out at that dance to hanging out outside of camp?
SPEAKER_01:That's a really good question. I don't know that I do. Do you?
SPEAKER_03:Well, the okay, I actually only really remember two times hanging out with you outside of camp. I remember studying the Torah with you. Wow. Slash your brother. Like I went to some synagogue on a Saturday.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And we You came, you came to my house on on Shabbat. Yes. Which was uh which was new territory for me. That was like super cool. And then we went on a date in like Boston, like downtown.
SPEAKER_03:But that was the night before we both went back to those are the only two times I remember hanging out. And yet I do consider us to have been romantic. Like I do consider I thought of me as dating you.
SPEAKER_04:Right. But that's interesting that it was truly two hangs, one of which was studying the Torah, which can't exactly count. Like I could have just been your buddy. So somehow like that.
SPEAKER_01:I think that they both definitely count. Like I remember very fondly, it's interesting. Like I remember um I didn't realize that you would come to Shoal also. Like you came to synagogue um earlier than that. I remember you came to the house for Shabaab lunch.
SPEAKER_03:And you know Oh, I had lunch with your family?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Oh yeah. Which was a whole, like for me, it was a combination of a lot of things. Like, remember aside before, like I was conflicted about the um do I don't die at the dance party? So for me, at home, there was a lot of kind of those diametrically opposed feelings and thoughts and emotions, not about religion, um, but about um, I grew up like constantly always, uh, I guess on some level, embarrassed of my house. Um, it was, you know, always pretty small compared to the wealthy upper middle class families that were in my my my my classes um in grade school. And uh also my mother was a decent level pack rat. Not to the point of like she wouldn't have made an episode of uh of um hoarders, but it wasn't exactly a clean house. And I wouldn't remember always being worried and nervous. And now, as like a adult, as you said, as a 19-year-old, all of a sudden having like a girl come over to the house was that was the first time that um that that had happened as opposed to like one of my classmates or like my high school girlfriend who lived around the corner from me. Yes.
SPEAKER_03:So she so she always knew. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Because I did remember that you had, and I actually think I even remember her name, and we don't need to say it, but I I remember that you had had a serious girlfriend who I ended up doing volunteer work with at some point, or I had met her. Yes. That's why I think I maybe met you before we were 19. We both got to unpack that one kitchen and boss.
SPEAKER_01:That's segment of the story. We have to unpack that one.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. No, I mean I like to like keep it to us so that no one else feels revealed.
SPEAKER_01:No problem.
SPEAKER_03:But I was aware of um of the fact that you had dated somebody seriously. But yes, so that makes sense that somebody who had sort of known you for many years came over.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. And then you came to the house, and the only other thing I would add to it is um, you know, I think about that day every once in a while, like legitimately, because you know, I know that we've said we're 22, but when I was 22, um in in in non-dog years, um that that was that was when my mom passed away. So you got to like hang out with my family and meet my mom, and she loved you. Um and like, you know, my wife had never met my mom. Um so it's like one of those kind of like, huh. Like uh like it was I remember that my mom would like she made mention of you multiple times, like years later, kind of a thing. Um that she really enjoyed getting to meet you. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's really beautiful. Wow. What were you gonna say? What do you remember from uh coming to my house?
SPEAKER_03:Well, just simply that I grew up in a really small apartment. So to me, there was it was like wow, a house in Newton. Or, you know, I was I so to me, I and I don't remember the pack rat thing. I I was a messy kid. I didn't, you know, I never would have noticed it.
SPEAKER_01:So it's funny to have like the tapes that we have in our heads and like the stories that we have, you know, going through us, whether they're happening or not.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. About house what pricing?
SPEAKER_01:House pricing in Newton. Oh, oh my parents bought that in like 79 and they pay you like$75,000 for it. Yeah. It was like a 1,300 square foot house. So not not big by anybody's standards as far as a house goes. Um, if you look it up on Zillow now, it's 1.13. Yeah. It's I mean, disgusting. Just gross, but whatever. Weird.
SPEAKER_03:Um, what did I want to say about? Oh, it's so interesting because that you are saying that that dance thing, there was no religious issue, and at your house there was no religious issue. But for me, I think that I interpreted it through that lens a little bit.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah. Meaning you interpreted what was going on as through the lens of is Yaakov embarrassed of me religiously?
SPEAKER_03:Not embarrassed, but inflicted.
SPEAKER_01:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03:Especially because I think the last night we hung out.
SPEAKER_05:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Um, we held hands. Yep. And that was, I believe, the first time we held hands.
SPEAKER_01:Yep. I think so too.
SPEAKER_03:And I mean, because one of the times it was in a synagogue, one of the times it was at your parents, you know, it's like one of the times is that like I can't function.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um We live for danger.
SPEAKER_03:And and then I tried to kiss you, and you were like, I can't. Right. I remember. And I didn't I think part of the I can't was we're not going to be dating seriously because I'm leaving to go to Israel. Um, but I think I always sort of interpreted it as um, you're not as religious as I am. That's why I'm sort of actually surprised to hear you say that your mom really liked me because I thought that part of the issue was that you didn't feel that I was religious enough for you.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. Okay. I mean, she did ask if you love Jesus. No, I'm kidding. Um no, I mean Muhammad. Yeah, exactly right. Yeah, you know, everyone picked your poison. Um the yeah, no, that wasn't really ever um at all, at all a question. Um I think the idea that you were probably picking up on rightly so, because um you were probably probably still are and always were a pretty uh well-attuned kind of uh uh trust your gut person. The um I felt conflicted, um, but because of my own religiosity, not because of yours.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. Okay, yes. That so there was some okay.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but meaning like not because Miriam is um somehow different from me, and therefore this can never be, but because I was 19, going back to Israel, supposed to be this, you know, growing religious um persona. Um, and what was expected of me from the Trumps of expectation of, you know, going back in Hebrew called Shunabet, a year number two to learn in Israel, was that I'm not still struggling with, you know, the in Orthodoxy, there's the expectation that men and women don't touch um until they're married. Um so, you know, I grew up always in a teenager-y conflicted way about that within modern orthodoxy, which lives both in the modern world and orthodoxy. So that's kind of always like the number one topic the teens want to talk about um is that. So there was always that level of conflict. And then to be 19 and post-Israel and almost going back to Israel, there was that. Like, is this what am I living up to my own sense of ideal and expectation in my own head? So it was about my my level of religiosity and feeling like imposter syndrome, probably having nothing to do with you. I remember um, you know, it's interesting, um, who I married, um, who's awesome. Um, and you know, I I think that we, she and I became friends first, and we date we didn't start dating for about five years and of knowing each other. Um, but she was always a very out loud, and um I remember being very intrigued by her personality right away, and it was a similar kind of a sense I got from you when we were 19. It was you were always adorable and cute, and like you know, there was an attraction, but it was the personality of I do my own thing and I am out there and confident that I was always like very intrigued by. So it was a similar kind of a vibe. Wow, cool. Yeah. But I remember I remember the the date in Boston, and I remember basically like you took the wheel. Um I think you might have even initiated the date and certainly planned it all out. Uh, like where we were going and um where we would walk. I think we walked by your high school. Yes, I think that's where I tried to kiss you. That is why. That is why. Yeah. Uh there was like there was like a corner or something like that, like uh, like a specific like uh spot near one of the walls, I think. And that's where like that moment of what the hell am I saying no for? And I think the conflict was a piece of that, like, this isn't what uh what Yaakov is supposed to be doing. And also then you were right, the other piece of like I'm leaving it a week to go back to Israel, and Miriam is going on with her life. Like, this just isn't what a nice guy should be like should do.
SPEAKER_03:Like, oh yeah. I actually think I was living leaving for New York the next day. I think it was really leaving for New York. I think that was sort of why everything came to a head, and I love that came to a head as us holding hands. But um, I think that's when um it's just so funny because you know, we were 19.
SPEAKER_04:Other people are doing other things.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, they were.
SPEAKER_01:Um I remember you had a conversation with me. Do you remember this one? And then I'll sorry, you know, I want to hear from you first, and then I'll ask you my question about something I remember.
SPEAKER_03:Oh no, I no, because I don't want you to forget.
SPEAKER_01:Oh forget. Don't worry. Go for it.
SPEAKER_03:Uh I'm not even really sure what I was saying. Um yes, I think that it did feel like the last opportunity. So that's why things did come to a head. And yeah. Well, I think that you were going off. Yeah, so that maybe there was something that was like you would be not a nice guy or something. So there's like the religious peace, but also, yeah. Whereas I think for me it was like, well, let's have this experience.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Let's let's make sure that we sort of led up to all summer.
SPEAKER_01:Right, exactly right. Like, let's make sure that we actually, you know, declare our feelings more than just verbally because we're about to all turn into pumpkins right now. Right.
SPEAKER_05:Mm-hmm. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I remember that we had a conversation. And this is what I was gonna say before. I was walking up the um, what are those ridiculous, stupid twisty turny paths from the the um the blacktop where they did park where they did parking and like busing up to where the units were, um, and like you trip over 15 routes and things like that, and they never thought to maybe mow or pave. It was like, yes, it's a hike to get literally a hike to get to your thing. We were walking up one of those paths, and somehow we got into the conversation um about um uh me being 19 and a virgin. Um I was also virgin, right? Right. But I'm saying, like, you were I remember you uh vividly expressing out loud how it was shocking to you that someone with my confidence uh as a 19-year-old boy and confidence with girls was a virgin. Interesting. Maybe that was like a nice pickup line, but that was uh Yeah, interesting. Well, because I I was I had never had a conversation like that with somebody who um, you know, wasn't from within my day school world where the expectation was that you were a virgin until married.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's funny. And maybe uh yeah, a little out of line with what I yeah, how I thought we spoke.
SPEAKER_01:It was, I mean, I I don't think I made that one up in my brain.
SPEAKER_03:I'm sure you did not make that up. I definitely am a very like bold person, but I'm surprised that I was surprised because of course you were.
SPEAKER_01:You were religious, yeah, you're religious. Yeah, so I don't know. Maybe it was more like I maybe it was more like I I felt like ooh, like that's a badge of honor. She thinks I'm super confident. Um, and maybe it was more like you said it like um, of course you're you're you are, but then you wouldn't be this level of confidence with girls, kind of a thing. Like those are the two things that are incongruous.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, and I can I do think it may have just been a way for me to compliment you.
SPEAKER_01:Well, compliment taken. It stuck with me.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, sounds good to me. That was fine. Um do you remember? Did we stay in touch? Did we write letters and stuff?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we did for a little bit. Um, and uh it was emails and our sheet and birth. Oh. I remember it was like, you know, email had only come out like four years prior or something like that. And the yeshiva I was in, um, maybe relax.
SPEAKER_03:I think I got it only the year before.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, and the yeshiva I was in had like a room, like a computer room, um, that you would go to to like sign on to check your email. And then you could print your emails on those dot matrix printers where like, you know, the you have to pull the stupid sides of the paper off. And I remember like printing an email and reading it and then having to go back and write, you know, we didn't write for too long. Um but yeah, yeah, there were there were a couple emails back and forth.
SPEAKER_03:I remember you telling me that you found out that you don't need to sleep much. And I was like, whoa, that sounds like serious. You know, I think it was that you were like, Oh, you don't actually need to sleep much so that I can study more. And that's like a heavy thing to say.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, that was probably also me showing off a little bit, my guesses. Um, but yeah, I mean it it it's true. Uh I still don't sleep too much.
SPEAKER_03:Um I am I mean it seems like it.
SPEAKER_01:It seems like you're always yeah, it's uh it's not necessarily a healthy thing. It's not something any longer that I think I should be proud of that I probably need to unwind from that somehow latent feeling of like, no, workaholics unite. Um but the it is true that I think that I realized that I could spend more time doing the learning thing and sleep less was a burgeoning source of pride for me at 19, 20. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Um, and to go back to the religious thing, because that's like always how I've thought of this. Um was there some element of that in terms of not thinking of me as an actual potential partner?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, um I don't think so. I think for me it was more like the unrealistic potential partner because of timing. I mean like we were on quite different paths, um, but also living 6,000 miles apart from each other. Um, so the timing didn't work. Um, and I wasn't, especially at 20, I was not thinking like I'm going to start dating for marriage. Um my friends were already at that point, um, but I was not. So for me, it was like I'm not in that mindset, but at the same time, like I am of a mindset that says if I'm going to be dating somebody, it's you know, I first off, I wasn't. I didn't date um for really all of undergrad for the most part. I flirted a lot. Uh that's how I kind of, you know, uh got you're good at it. Yeah, I appreciate that. I practiced. Um, but uh the the opportunity like the that's how I probably got my fix of female attention, as opposed to um, you know, the outlet that is more you know typical within America of you know, dating and or finding those physical flings, which I didn't um as a you know 20 to 24 year old. Um, but then when I finished undergrad after a couple of years of the gap year, um, that's when I was like, okay, or as I was getting ready to finish undergrad, I was like, okay, now is when I want to start thinking about you know dating. And so at the time when we were um an item for that summer, that that magical summer, um was like I wasn't of that mindset and thinking like this is something we were very young. Yeah. Yeah. We were we were kids. But at the same time, like it is possible that it that somewhere in me there was the we're so different of uh pathways religiously and experience of religious. She might not want what I want um from a like as a as a religious lifestyle. Um, that probably if I was you know daydreaming about it would come up. But for the most part, I think it was just like I wasn't thinking about that because it wasn't where my brain was emotionally from a relationship perspective. It was like I'm just not in relationship mode.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, which is so funny because I think in both both the dance anecdote and then also that question I just asked you, it's a little it's more like typical, like a typical situation. It's like you're about to live somewhere far and yeah, you are maybe like feeling a little shy, but no, neither of those things were not at all. Yes. And I think I had in my head that like you were uncomfortable like flirting with me in public because it's like I just had this Oh wow, yeah. And I think I had this idea that like if we were to continue dating, that either you would have become less religious or I would have become more religious. And that is like something that is not and granted, yes, of course, we were quite young and not like at marriage age, but that is something that doesn't exist in most pairings.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Well, I the truth is that I think it probably on some level does, meaning whether it's Jewish or Christian, Catholic, you know, like oftentimes people get together and they don't have the exact same uh familial um experience and therefore expectation, even latent expectation of what their adult life will look like vis-a-vis religion. So I do think that like a lot of times there's a navigation that takes place um of figuring out where the comfort zone lies for the couple as a new entity, as a new construct, as opposed to the individuals beforehand. Like, for example, my my brother, um, who you met uh over Tater Time.
SPEAKER_03:I love your I loved your brother. Yeah. I felt like I talked to him a lot.
SPEAKER_01:Still? No.
SPEAKER_03:I felt like I talked to him a lot. I felt like I became buddies with him for sure.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. He was a cute little buddy kid. Um, he's not that much younger. He's like, you know, two years younger than us. Um but I rem but he, you know, he dated and dated a little bit later um uh in life, not you know, not in a crazy late way. He got um he ended up getting married to someone. So he had he he dated somebody who was thinking about converting to Judaism. He dated um and then he ended up with someone, a wonderful sister-in-law to me, uh, who is um grew up going to day school also, but from a very different place of kind of religious expectation of herself and from her family, um, as well as from like the during the dating age, it was a very different expectation that she had of what that would look like than what than what my brother did. Um so I think that in a different timing order, um, that possibly would have come up for us also as a conversation to navigate as a couple of like what would this look like if this went farther? What are you looking for? What am I looking for? And either deciding that one or the other would work for both of us, finding some middle ground. But if one of us felt like we couldn't compromise enough, that is sometimes what couples go through and is a reason for, you know, what this probably isn't going to work out long term, kind of a thing. Um, I do think that had we met at a different stage with some of the same factors, that we would have I would have seriously contemplated it and perhaps um made certain compromises, sacrifices, I don't know, sacrifices, but certain certain compromises that, you know, every twist and turn means that there's a path not taken, so life would have turned out differently. But does that freak you out a little? Um no. Not really. Meaning, like I just I think that it there's always the 15 myriad infinite paths not taken. Of course. And so therefore, it doesn't really freak me out. And also maybe because of my upbringing, meaning I, you know, I grew up in what I I I have to imagine that probably most um might not understand. Most of your deep, deep listenership might not understand the nuances of uh of what the philosophy of modern orthodoxy is about, but the idea of living in the modern world and wanting to be intimately deeply involved in all echelons of modern society while still adhering to a very traditional expectation of religious life uh from an orthodox perspective, and that there's inherent conflict there, and that you look for beauty in the conflict. You look for, you know, where the gears are grinding, and then realizing that there's real, um, there's real fruitful potential for kind of soul searching that comes through the gears grinding. Um, so knowing that I was never living in a fully black and white environment, I think leaves me more open to the possibility of, huh, it could have turned out that way, it could have turned out this way, it could have turned out that way. Does that make any sense? Yeah, completely. Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, completely. And I actually think that's it's super healthy. So that there's like flexibility in your point of view. Yeah. Um, yeah. I didn't know whether there was some feeling of um because you are devoted to your religion on so many levels, it's your career also.
SPEAKER_05:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Um, whether there was sort of some kind of a like a discomfort with the concept that maybe you would have not taken that path.
SPEAKER_01:Uh no. No. Cool.
SPEAKER_00:I don't think so. Yeah. I have to choose between God and Miriam. Okay.
SPEAKER_04:Um that isn't fully gonna be a poll quote for like the sizzle reel. Exactly right.
SPEAKER_01:So good. Um that's what I was going for.
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, I don't I don't I don't think so. I don't think I really felt that even in like during that summer, nor afterwards, any of that. It's interesting to me, you know, obviously, like I just said the phrase before, you know, my own imposter syndrome and all sorts of variations of it. Um, and especially this year, because I I just moved back to Boston. I just moved home. Um and to the same town, to the same town I grew up in, to the same synagogues I grew up going to that still have the same pulpit rabbis, um, and to my alma mater. So now I run the school that I went to, which basically means that you know they say, like, don't pish in your own pool. Like, I'm living in the birthplace of every aspect of my imposter syndrome every day. Wow. Um, so talk about a good and raising children.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. Raising many children.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, just uh like a few. Um but the uh the notion of um, you know, feeling um that I have certain beliefs about what somebody else is thinking about me, um, which is like you know, the inherent building blocks of imposter syndrome. But I had not, you know, selfishly as a 19-year-old thought about what you might, what tapes might be playing in your head. We can't even say tapes. What what uh what tracks might be playing in your head as far as the religious piece? Um, but like, you know, definitely those were not big time thoughts that were running through my head, but they were through yours, which, you know, I'm sorry I didn't realize that then.
SPEAKER_03:No, no. I mean, I think I love like that's like one of the most fun things about this podcast is clarifying things like that. I mean, I talked to somebody who I went on a date with in the fifth grade, and we had very different experiences.
SPEAKER_01:Um yes, he remembered his hot date from fifth grade.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, I mean he had thought about it.
SPEAKER_01:Wow.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, 100%. It was like a formative experience. 100%. Sounds like I have listened to that episode. And his name is Christian, so that was a different slightly. Um, yes, that is super interesting. Yeah, I mean, I think it was also not that it was a torment for me, just simply I had never and then never since dated someone um religious.
SPEAKER_01:Right. So I'm the I'm the rabbi that got away, is what you're saying.
SPEAKER_03:100 another poll quote. What are you doing? I mean, it's so good. Yeah, totally. Nice, yeah. I just want to see if there's something else that I wanted to Yeah, go for it. Oh, um, did this is a little bit of a hard question. Um, did you have any discomfort around recording this podcast?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, good question.
SPEAKER_01:Um well, you hear the pause in my voice. The the the the short, short answer is no. The more, I would say, introspective answer is um was there at some point a worry that like this would be perceived as somehow um unbecoming of the role I play and of the religious life. Um and I, you know, part of it again is like you said before, you know, it's not uh, you know, I'm about to make a in my brain, I just made a disparaging, uh self-deprecating joke about my hairline. But remember the old commercials um uh for Hair Club for Men? Um president, but I'm also a client kind of a thing? Yes. So for me, my my imposter syndrome, um, yeah, I live in it in a lot of ways because it's who I am for my own religious identity, but it's also like that's what I do professionally. I'm the head of school of a religious institution. So that means that I role model um that very same religiosity about which I might have some of my own hangups and and and imposter syndroming. Uh, and then I do that professionally, which means is this somehow going to bite me in the tugas professionally? Um, but at the same time, I recognize that A, it won't, and B, it shouldn't worry me at all. Um, so it doesn't. But I do think that I had to do a little bit of that, huh, does it kind of calculation first. So that was the only um, you know, you I think you phrase it as like, was it difficult for you to decide to do this? I think that was it. So nothing too hardcore. Um just a little just like that that little tiny bit.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I mean, it's something that I'm coming upon with different people for different reasons, reasons why everyone ends up doing it, but there are different reasons people, even though they'll, you know, it'll just be first names. I think people or anonymous, whatever we want. Um it I think different people have different comfort with being public, even if it's totally anonymous, right? Just sharing their words.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Well, I'd um that's I mean, again, professionally, like I'm that is I'm not, you know, an actress and a voice actress. Um, but uh uh whether it's media or in print or in uh over voice is an area that I think I have a little bit of Miriam energy in me where it doesn't bother me. Yes. I am excited about it.
SPEAKER_03:You're you're a Gemini.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that is there you go. And we're gonna that I was a Gemini?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, of course. Nice. Um and has there any have you sort of thought back on this in any way that we haven't touched on yet?
SPEAKER_01:Um yeah. I mean, like I said, I think we did touch on it a little bit. I said before, like I definitely thought about, you know, uh you meeting my my family, meeting my mom. Um, you know, when I think about the fact that I mean, just from a timing perspective, she knew my high school girlfriend, she knew you, and that was it. Um so and apparently you knew my high school girlfriend, which I need to offline.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, you didn't know that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, I have to unback that one. That's fun. Um, but um, you know, and then there was like the occasional um funny little, you know, quirky um offhand thought of, you know, like what the hell was wrong with me? I was 19. Why didn't, you know, I just, you know, let the kiss happen, uh, kind of a thing. Like that was dumb. Um, so like there are those kinds of moments and not not just, you know, our moments, but like, you know, other other types of times when it was like, why did I prevent that? Um, kind of a thing. And at the same time, it's like it's good that I, you know, I feel like it was it not not, I mean, maybe from a little bit of religious thing, but more like it felt in that moment like the slightly nerdy, sweet guy thing to do would be to not let this get any more uh emotionally fraught because we're both leaving on an airplane um or jet plane, whatever the lyric is. Um, and there's a part of me that is just like, huh, like missed opportunity. That kind of a thing.
SPEAKER_03:There's something about it though, that's kind of it's sort of fun that it didn't happen because that's an experience also. The longing is an experience also, the wanting.
SPEAKER_01:It's so much I I I remember telling a friend about this once. It was like in slow-mo. Like you leaned in and I leaned to the side.
SPEAKER_03:I do remember that we I do remember that we hugged.
SPEAKER_04:And I was just like, oh, hug and that felt really, really good.
SPEAKER_03:And yeah, there's something in the experience of not getting to do that thing. Because it's also like, I mean, it it's not like we were gonna do everything, but there's always more to do, and there's always more to stop from having happened. Right. Um yeah, right. I think there's something really interesting about not doing. Because there's so much, so much in life that like is doing. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's very true. Are there aspects of this that you recall or that you think about that we haven't spoken about yet? Not the interviewer.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, what came to mind is yeah, like, and I said this before, but that humor. I think humor and intellect, like in as a pair, was a big part of our vibe. Um, and just that there was such a vibe was like very exciting. And so in that sense, it doesn't really matter like what we did or didn't do. That was like a really fun experience. And I think there's something about the innocence of it, might even be why it's like more comfortable for you to talk on this podcast. Like if you had done something that you wish you hadn't, I don't know that you would be talking.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, and like I certainly wasn't gonna maybe I would have had like more rules about like what we can talk about and what we can't guess about.
SPEAKER_03:Right. Now this is like we're talking about everything. There was hand holding. Um, but yeah, I think there's something about that about that innocence. Like I had kissed people at that point. And so there was something so I know, I know. Yes. I think that was I think that was part of why I was like, dude, you've run over war.
SPEAKER_04:But um I think there was some It was it was just it was just it was just me that you didn't kiss.
SPEAKER_03:There was exactly something very memorable about that. Um Beckett says in writing, because he wrote in French, even though he was Irish, he talked about writing as like the economy of lessness. And there's something about like a little bit less in that simplicity and that innocence. And I think it was, I think the reason why I thought about religion is because um like I was pushing the bounds of religion. Like I had gone to I had gone to Israel and I studied Hebrew and I was like pretty into being Jewish at that point. Um and so for me, I didn't um I wouldn't have studied the Torah on a random Saturday otherwise. So you did sort of bring me into this other world.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Right. I was an I was an entry point on some on some.
SPEAKER_03:I think you stretched stretched me. That's interesting. Um let me think if there's anything else.
SPEAKER_01:Um I remember one other aspect um that I remember feeling simultaneously, I think was part of the intrigue for me, um, in the sense that you know I grew up um going to all sorts of, you know, um like Jewish youth conventions and um always loving it. And it was an opportunity for me to kind of shine in a you know extroverted, you know, I'm up on stage kind of uh personality. And running alongside um of our weekend retreats were uh was there was a uh a cohort of participants that were developmentally different. Um, and um uh most were Down syndrome and you know, other um and and their counselors. And I remember always having like a little bit of a tug of war with myself of my level of comfort and level of participation with that program that was happening congruently with the rest of it. Um, and the fact that you were so comfortable and more than comfortable, like you're like in my mind at 19, it was like this is the career that you were going to have and you were always meant to have, and that you had always knew you were going to have. Um, and seeing you so capable and confident at 19 working with a population that was not my comfort zone, but I'd always been around and you know, I'd always dabbled in, but it was not like where I saw myself going, was both on some level uh a little scary and also really just like the the getish is like the get in a shama, right? Like in like your who you were in your soul uh of giving was so easy to see um that was very attractive and part of the allure for sure.
SPEAKER_03:Wow, thank you so much for saying that. Yeah, and I'm still Facebook friends with all those kids. And they all wish me happy birthday. It's really adorable. That's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Do you do any kind of side gig, side hustle with uh, you know, special ed, special needs?
SPEAKER_03:Not with not with special needs, but I do. I volunteered a hospice, which feels like a similar wow. Yeah, feels like a similar part of my being. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. And it's through a hospital. The hospital.
SPEAKER_03:No, it's its own hospice. I mean, it's not a site, it's you go into people's homes or nursing homes or things like that.
SPEAKER_01:Holy cow.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That's a it's a special kind of training you have to get for that, or you got a train.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, I got trained, yeah. I did like a few different trainings, but it wasn't anything super extensive.
SPEAKER_01:Right. I mean, I've been in some of those pastoral moments. Um, and I volunteer, you know, for what's called the Haver Kadisha, which is after somebody passes preparing um bodies for for burial, which is also like a whole separate thing, but it's not meaning it has its own sacredness, but it's not interacting with another alive human soul, um, you know, through those last stages of life. That's huge.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. And it feels very similar because I think there's a way in which you take it really seriously and then you also make jokes.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So you talk about death and the fear, and then you also make jokes and you go back and forth. And the jokes help with the serious and little patch atoms action. Yeah, yeah. It's great. Yeah. I mean, it's it's super fun. So yeah, it's they're very similar. They're yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. That's cool.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Impressive.
SPEAKER_03:And I think that Grossman camp was actually what gave me the comfort because Grossman, there was always a special needs bunk within the bunk. I don't want to say regular, the other, you know, what what's the right word?
SPEAKER_05:Neuro normative.
SPEAKER_03:I guess. Um yes. So I just was so you I'd been at that camp since I was eight and just hanging out with otherly individuals.
SPEAKER_01:It's crazy that we were both there since the time we were seven or eight and like met when we were 19.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That just tells you how isolated you are though. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I think that's why I wanted to be a C O T there. I was like, what? What the hell's going on up there?
SPEAKER_05:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Because that was less integrated than special needs. Oh, for sure. It was totally separate. Well, because even for like swim lessons, they wanted some privacy.
SPEAKER_01:So come on, it was I just made this comment to somebody the other day because I have some students that are now counselors at Grossman. It's just like, you are Grossman. But um, it was the men and the the boys and girls of the unit couldn't have swim together. So the boys would be scheduled for instructional swim back to back with with um with free swim, and then they would go up, and then there would be the girl time, but the unit wasn't that big, so we only ever had half of the lakefront. Like you remember that like the E-shaped duck. Yes. So there would be one half of the duck. The other half of the duck was a mixed gender monk from the rest of the camp. So it was like, huh, 15-year-old me is only gonna swim with boys, but be able to look right over there and enjoy the view. It was like of girls in bikinis. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, a little bit of cognitiveness and innocent disbelief kind of a thing. But yeah, all fair and love and war in Camp Grossman. Um, but you know, it's interesting now that uh I'm I don't know that I've necessarily I probably have had this thought, but a cognitive thought out loud um is uh, and I don't know what this is about, so I haven't even unpacked it. But again, my my wife and mother to our five children, thank God. Um I'm glad you said five. Yeah. Um, is um is why did you think I had more kids that she doesn't know about?
SPEAKER_03:No, I know that you have five, but I wanted the audience to know how many, but I wanted you to say it so I didn't have to make it a spectacle because it is a lot. And also I'm very impressed.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, um I'm very tired. Um, so um the uh so my wife um not only professionally has done that kind of work for a while, a little bit differently. She's an occupational therapist, but when we met, and for kind of all of her um formative uh summer experiences, she worked at a Jewish camp specifically and exclusively for um special needs children and adults. And um for 10 summers. So she went as like a waitress and then as a counselor and then eventually as a therapist to this camp for 10 summers in a row. And it was like again, this and the last summer that she did it, we went together as a as a newlywed couple. Um, and again, it was like this is so out of my comfort zone and so impressive that it was part of the intry. Um, but I never made that connection that it was kind of a similar um intrigue source.
SPEAKER_03:What a cool parallel.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I love that.
SPEAKER_01:The parallels of a podcast.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I feel really, really good.
SPEAKER_01:How many episodes are you gonna be doing?
SPEAKER_03:I mean, I hate to say it, but there's been some people.
SPEAKER_01:I didn't realize the uh the question.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, the layering of that question. It's like, so what have you been doing, Miriam? So have you spent your time? Season three.
SPEAKER_03:This is actually episode 250. Um, yeah, I'll decide if it'll be a limited series or sort of an ongoing. Nice, nice. We'll see. But I think one will be kind of like its own little radio program, just like its own episode that everyone will have a little slice in. And then in general, I think the full interviews are super, super interesting. And something something interesting emotionally happens in everyone. Super surprising. That's cool. Someone can start off sort of like icy and then like break down in tears. Really interesting. I'm sorry, I haven't made your eyes. No, no, I mean, you yeah, you said you said a really cool thing about your mama. So I'm pretty happy about that. Yeah, good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um I'm sure she's listening to the podcast on whatever podcast apps they have up there.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, she told me she does. I talked to her all the time. Um, is there anything else that you have? We've definitely like, you know, uh, what's the word? Like squeezed this the sponge, but is there anything else that you have thought of or that you um want to get across here? I mean, I'll say, I'll I'll say uh I really respect you. I think you're very smart. I think it's like very beautiful that you have this like wonderful family that you're devoted to and that you're teaching in a religious school. And I'm just I really wanted you on because it's an interesting story, but I also really care about you.
SPEAKER_01:I appreciate that. That's incredibly sweet. And uh I concur. I love watching your creativity uh on Facebook. Um and yes, I'm old, so it's Facebook and not Instagram. Um, but you know, I like there there was that kind of connection, that soul to soul spiritual connection of um really enjoying you. And um that has never gone away, even if it's uh much you know, less frequent. Um, and that's on me, uh, because I'm just a really bad friend. Um, but the you know, there was a reason for kind of I think our mutual intrigue and interest. And it you said it before, it's I think it was the combination of wit and uh and and and speed of intellect that was fun to play with, like uh almost like not like a sparring partner, but like to to make full circle with a metaphor, like a dancing partner. Um and you know, I I really do feel like there's I love the fact that you, you know, had a slightly different path than I did. Uh and and that you're it feels like from a distance. And again, everything looks super glossy on uh on Facebook, but it looks like you're living your best life, which is awesome. You know, how cool is it that I know somebody who does full on creative work all the time?
SPEAKER_03:Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you. Yeah, I really appreciate you, and I really appreciate. You taking the time, but also like taking the the little risk to record this. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. Yeah. It's a pleasure. Yeah. And I, you know, when this breaks and makes us both famous, you let me know and I'll come calling for royalties.
SPEAKER_03:Perfect. That's how podcasts work.
SPEAKER_01:That's exactly how it works.
SPEAKER_04:Unfortunately, it's not even how TV works at this point.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you, thank you, thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. Let me know how I can uh binge listen to all of these episodes. Okay. This is a little like opportunity for you to plug your whole podcast. Um, but uh really, this is such a cool opportunity to go down memory lane. Um, but like I like I go back to like I meant what I said before. Like my family loved meeting you, my brother remembers it and we joke around about it. Um, and my mother, for real. Like, you know, we were 19, so she was only around for like again, like three more years. The summer of 22 is when she was gone. Um, I mean, I mean, I don't mean 2022, I mean when we were 22. Um, and she loved meeting you.
SPEAKER_03:Well, it's really not just because you were learning Parsha, but it's really beautiful because if you're saying that like there's some connection between me and your wife, it's like a way of which I didn't really think through, but yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01:It was a per there's a personality piece there of like living out loud and proud, kind of a thing.
SPEAKER_03:And it's like a way for you to have seen your mom loving your wife.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah. Super beautiful.
SPEAKER_01:Back at you, kiddo.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you, thank you. And uh yeah, I'll definitely send this to you when I have it.
SPEAKER_01:Awesome. Okay, awesome. All right, sweet dreams to you and have a wonderful. Is it is it nightfall yet by you? Not yet.
SPEAKER_03:It's not nightfall, it is evening. Sunset. Yes, it is sunset.
SPEAKER_01:Nice. Well, enjoy your night on the town. Thank you. Um, go have fun, and um then that way you can have another episode of your podcast.
SPEAKER_02:O M F G. I want you all still to answer my questions. I still want to know how you can be so high.
SPEAKER_03:I love his comment at the end about me going out and meeting new people for the podcast. That was Jewish Heaven. Uh, the stuff about his mom was so gorgeous. And it's really fun to remember early years like that. I'm very excited to have more conversations with early romances. And oh, here's another White Whale guest. First of all, that Sommelier from Crow's Nest in Montauk like 10 years ago, who I kissed on the beach, and sounded like, um, I don't remember your name, but totally get in touch. And also, because this was sort of an innocent podcast, I think it would be interesting to have my first close boy friend from MIT preschool. Obviously, technically that was not exactly romantic, but I was really excited about his existence in a romantic way. And I promise I'd make this a good episode. So, John Roberts, find me. I think you grew up in Arlington. Yeah. Not the Supreme Court Justice. But yeah, come on the pod. Okay, thank you so much for listening.
SPEAKER_02:X appeal is so real, X appeal is so real, X appeal is so real. You are open, you are closed. You are open, you are closed.